On Asian pitches who is more lethal - Yasir Shah or Ravichandran Ashwin?

[Canford Cliffs]

On a turner or a slow/low Asian track, whom would you pick in your team if you have to choose one? Who is more lethal spinner on pitches where they get assistance?

 

[Pakhs]

Was expecting this kind of thread to appear soon. Both have proven track record on turners. Yasir in general have bowled on more flat tracks than Ashwin so in my opinion he is a bigger thread on variety of wickets as you would expect as he is a wrist spinner with control. But on turners I will find it very hard to not have Ashwin in my side.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The turn doesn't have to be vicious when Ashwin in form. Even a hint of turn is enough. His variations will be very hard to pick. After groin injury he is not the same. Also he is one of the most over-exposed spinners in the world thanks to all format and extensive involvement in the IPL. People know his variations by now. That is why he keeps trying to add new tools to his armory.

 

[the_outsider]

Ashwin, Jadeja and until 2 weeks ago even Herath over Yasir Shah in Asia.

Don't get me wrong. Yasir is an excellent spinner and one of the best in the world. But he's not in the top 4.

The stats speak for themselves and it's there for everyone to see.

 

[The Viper]

Ashwin. But Yasir is not far behind and is a match winner.

 

[Pakhs]

Ashwin, Jadeja and until 2 weeks ago even Herath over Yasir Shah in Asia.

Don't get me wrong. Yasir is an excellent spinner and one of the best in the world. But he's not in the top 4.

The stats speak for themselves and it's there for everyone to see.

I think we have had this discussion before! for this thread I will agree with your point to an extent but on dead / oversees tracks all four have not won their team a single match where Yasir have got 10fers in win. I also think if there is a lot of turn on offer you dont need a wrist spinner as finger spinners will be sufficient as you dont need lots of revs on the ball and finger spinners will have more control by nature.

 

[the_outsider]

I think we have had this discussion before! for this thread I will agree with your point to an extent but on dead / oversees tracks all four have not won their team a single match where Yasir have got 10fers in win. I also think if there is a lot of turn on offer you dont need a wrist spinner as finger spinners will be sufficient as you dont need lots of revs on the ball and finger spinners will have more control by nature.

Yes I remember. And I think one of my main points was that the total number of matches Ashwin and Herath have won for their teams (wherever they were held) is much too large for Yasir's 10fer in England to sway the argument in his favour. Anyway.

Yeah and as for the finger/wrist spinner argument, yes I agree. And at the same time, a wrist spinner has a natural advantage over a finger spinner on non-turning (SENA) pitches.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Yasir not even had chance to bowl on India type moon dust wickets that turn from ball 1, of he did he would probably be taking 10 wickets in a day all the time.

UAE surfaces arent as spin friendly as rest of asia.

 

[Pakhs]

Yasir not even had chance to bowl on India type moon dust wickets that turn from ball 1, of he did he would probably be taking 10 wickets in a day all the time.

UAE surfaces arent as spin friendly as rest of asia.

But these two pitches against NZ have been turning similar to the ones you will get in India.

 

[Bilal7]

Yasir Shah, anywhere in the world.

The turn doesn't have to be vicious when Ashwin in form. Even a hint of turn is enough. His variations will be very hard to pick. After groin injury he is not the same. Also he is one of the most over-exposed spinners in the world thanks to all format and extensive involvement in the IPL. People know his variations by now. That is why he keeps trying to add new tools to his armory.

I disagree. Ashwin has looked pretty ordinary on quite a few occasions when he hasn't been given rank turners. India's two most recent home series against England, as well as their tours of England prove my point. He was outbowled by both Moeen and Maharaj in England and South Africa, respectively. All these series had pitches that provided some support to the spinners but Ashwin blew it.

He has never been the best spinner in the world. For the first half of his career, he was overshadowed by Ajmal and Swann and in more recent times, Herath and Shah have been better. His numbers are inflated by virtue of bowling on some absolute rank turners. You don't have to believe me but his countryman, Harbhajjan said so as well.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

False comparison.... Yasir doesn't bowl on raging Bunsen burners like Ashwin does regularly.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Neither.

 

[Hawkeye]

Yet to see Yasir on a rank dust bowl turner, where Ashwin plays.

So until then, can't really say.

Yasir mostly bowls on lifeless pitches which only turn significantly on day 4/5.

In theory he might do better on dust bowlers than Ash.

 

[Bilal7]

But these two pitches against NZ have been turning similar to the ones you will get in India.

Not even close. Mohali and Nagpur 2015 were absolute minefields. The top score in the third test of that series was 40, in this match it is 140. Dean Elgar was running through the Indians in that series. Nothing else comes close.

Pakistan does not have control over the UAE pitches while in India, curators are routinely forced to prepare tailor-made pitches to help India's spinners and batsmen.

 

[the_outsider]

False comparison.... Yasir doesn't bowl on raging Bunsen burners like Ashwin does regularly.

You mean Yasir doesn't bowl on pitches where crap bowlers like Laubuschange and Bilal Asif took wickets for fun on day 2/3 pitches? )

I've already schooled the likes of you by showing the stats for spinners avg and SR in India and in UAE. Stop trying to pull the same nonsense again and again. It comes across as rather pathetic.

 

[the_outsider]

Not even close. Mohali and Nagpur 2015 were absolute minefields. The top score in the third test of that series was 40, in this match it is 140. Dean Elgar was running through the Indians in that series. Nothing else comes close.

Pakistan does not have control over the UAE pitches while in India, curators are routinely forced to prepare tailor-made pitches to help India's spinners and batsmen.

Outside of those 2 tests and the Pune test in 2017, name one more test match from the last 4 years where you saw a rank turner.

Please post the scorecard of said game(s).

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Just see some fake experts here saying every other test match in india is played on rank turner.
They will be the first one too question kohli's ability of playing on rank turners even after averaging 60+ in india.
Hypocrisy is unbelievable.

 

[DRsohail]

You mean Yasir doesn't bowl on pitches where crap bowlers like Laubuschange and Bilal Asif took wickets for fun on day 2/3 pitches? )

I've already schooled the likes of you by showing the stats for spinners avg and SR in India and in UAE. Stop trying to pull the same nonsense again and again. It comes across as rather pathetic.

will be more meaningful if Ashwian with such good performances takes wickets and win you two test matches in england but I have seen him bowling worst than jadeja, on turners both are excellent but for me I will go with yasir and the reason is I like leggies but Ashwin will surely get the job done as well.

 

[DRsohail]

Just see some fake experts here saying every other test match in india is played on rank turner.
They will be the first one too question kohli's ability of playing on rank turners even after averaging 60+ in india.
Hypocrisy is unbelievable.

the praise kohli gets here is above everyone, we cant just mention him in every bowling thread after all he doesn’t belong to pak cricket and here we discuss things mostly related to Pakistan.

 

[the_outsider]

will be more meaningful if Ashwian with such good performances takes wickets and win you two test matches in england but I have seen him bowling worst than jadeja, on turners both are excellent but for me I will go with yasir and the reason is I like leggies but Ashwin will surely get the job done as well.

If two 5fers in England is enough to make Yasir better than Ashwin career haul of 26fers and dominance in Asia, then by that logic Sehwag is the better than any Pakistani batsman ever because he has produced 3-4 centuries in SENA and has bosses Asia more than any other batsman ever.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Pakistan does not have control over the UAE pitches while in India, curators are routinely forced to prepare tailor-made pitches to help India's spinners and batsmen.

What?

So who instructs curators what kind of pitches need to be prepared? Emirates Cricket Board? Or are you saying, no one instructs at all and curators in UAE do as they wish

It don't work that way. All home teams have the right to demad the type of pitch they want and hence its called 'Home Advantage'. Pakistan pays money to Emirates board to rent the stadiums. The role of UAE board ends right there. Then its upto PCB what pitch they want to prepare, what format they want to play, which team they play etc. Its similar to when you live in a rented apartment, your owner dont decide what food you will cook for your guest. As long as you pay him the rent, he is fine.

All home boards prepare pitches based on their convinience and Pakistan is no different. Yes, due to climatic situation and soil texture, certain pitches are not possible in some places. For example, no curators in Asia can leave grass and expect it to seam around for 3 days like in England. The heat will ensure the grass will dry by tea on 1st day. Similarly, UAE cant produce India like spinning pitch due to soil content etc.

Pakistan take as much home advantage as any other home team. Just because they play their home matches in Dubai...does not mean its like away game for them

 

[saeed5646]

You mean Yasir doesn't bowl on pitches where crap bowlers like Laubuschange and Bilal Asif took wickets for fun on day 2/3 pitches? )


I've already schooled the likes of you by showing the stats for spinners avg and SR in India and in UAE. Stop trying to pull the same nonsense again and again. It comes across as rather pathetic.

OMG do you remember club level bowler from aus who create hovic in test series against number 1 rank team

 

[DRsohail]

If two 5fers in England is enough to make Yasir better than Ashwin career haul of 26fers and dominance in Asia, then by that logic Sehwag is the better than any Pakistani batsman ever because he has produced 3-4 centuries in SENA and has bosses Asia more than any other batsman ever.

Dude don’t take it away, I have said it already that both are beast at rank turners but on pitches with a little help yasir have won us matches but for Ashwin I was waiting eagerly for the SA and Eng tour but nothing came out. At least he should be getting a match winning five for in England in5 tests where alsoonners come in to play and Moeen Ali shown it though he is inf inferior spinner. If you are happy with number one team losing 4-1 in england with world number one spinner taking nothing significant then I have no issue. If yasir was that mediocre in England I would have rightly criticised him just like he was in Aus where captain also share the blame for over using him.

 

[Bilal7]

Just see some fake experts here saying every other test match in india is played on rank turner.
They will be the first one too question kohli's ability of playing on rank turners even after averaging 60+ in india.
Hypocrisy is unbelievable.

Not every match is played on a rank-turner but India produces more rank-turners than any other country in the world. The difference between an average of 24 and an average of 22 is these pitches.

Is Harbhajjan a "fake expert" as well?

 

[DRsohail]

If two 5fers in England is enough to make Yasir better than Ashwin career haul of 26fers and dominance in Asia, then by that logic Sehwag is the better than any Pakistani batsman ever because he has produced 3-4 centuries in SENA and has bosses Asia more than any other batsman ever.

and you are forgetting 16 5 wickets haul,,, he is not indian that’s why you don’t know but he has been carrying out mediocre team for good 4 years.

 

[the_outsider]

What?

So who instructs curators what kind of pitches need to be prepared? Emirates Cricket Board? Or are you saying, no one instructs at all and curators in UAE do as they wish

It don't work that way. All home teams have the right to demad the type of pitch they want and hence its called 'Home Advantage'. Pakistan pays money to Emirates board to rent the stadiums. The role of UAE board ends right there. Then its upto PCB what pitch they want to prepare, what format they want to play, which team they play etc. Its similar to when you live in a rented apartment, your owner dont decide what food you will cook for your guest. As long as you pay him the rent, he is fine.

All home boards prepare pitches based on their convinience and Pakistan is no different. Yes, due to climatic situation and soil texture, certain pitches are not possible in some places. For example, no curators in Asia can leave grass and expect it to seam around for 3 days like in England. The heat will ensure the grass will dry by tea on 1st day. Similarly, UAE cant produce India like spinning pitch due to soil content etc.

Pakistan take as much home advantage as any other home team. Just because they play their home matches in Dubai...does not mean its like away game for them

Trust some posters to lie out of his teeth just to ensure that the narrative suits his personal agenda.

They don't come here to debate or discuss things. They come here to impose their views on others.

The difference in the avg for spinners in India and UAE is about 2 runs. The difference in SR is about 6 balls.

Yet every Indian pitch is a rank turner and every UAE pitch deader than my great grandmother.

But at the same time, on these same UAE pitches a noob like Laubuschange was embarrassing the opposition batsmen on day 1 and day 2 pitches. Weird huh?

 

[Swashbuckler]

If Ashwin has such numbers only because of rank turners, no issues. That just means that PPers here agree that Kohli and Pujara are the greatest players of spin because they average in the mid 60s in SC, especially Kohli should then be regarded as the GOAT well ahead of Bradman, Viv, Sachin, Lara etc. Win-win situation for us Indians, either Ashwin comes out on top or our batsmen. You can't logically blast Ashwin and the very next line call Kohli a FTB .

 

[the_outsider]

Dude don’t take it away, I have said it already that both are beast at rank turners but on pitches with a little help yasir have won us matches but for Ashwin I was waiting eagerly for the SA and Eng tour but nothing came out. At least he should be getting a match winning five for in England in5 tests where alsoonners come in to play and Moeen Ali shown it though he is inf inferior spinner. If you are happy with number one team losing 4-1 in england with world number one spinner taking nothing significant then I have no issue. If yasir was that mediocre in England I would have rightly criticised him just like he was in Aus where captain also share the blame for over using him.

I am definitely not happy with India or Ashwin's performance in England.

But I do not agree with the fact that just because Ashwin hasn't won India a game overseas and Yasir has, that makes Yasir a better bowler.

And I don't underestimate Yasir either. I know he is excellent. But the sheer difference number of wickets between these two is enough to show who is better. You don't even need to look at other stats. Even though in terms of every single stat - avg, SR, ER, 5fer, 10fer Ashwin is comfortably ahead.

Ashwin even has a better bowling avg than Yasir in England. Only thing that Yasir has over Ashwin is that he has 2fers in England and Ashwin does not have any.

 

[Bilal7]

What?

So who instructs curators what kind of pitches need to be prepared? Emirates Cricket Board? Or are you saying, no one instructs at all and curators in UAE do as they wish

It don't work that way. All home teams have the right to demad the type of pitch they want and hence its called 'Home Advantage'. Pakistan pays money to Emirates board to rent the stadiums. The role of UAE board ends right there. Then its upto PCB what pitch they want to prepare, what format they want to play, which team they play etc. Its similar to when you live in a rented apartment, your owner dont decide what food you will cook for your guest. As long as you pay him the rent, he is fine.

All home boards prepare pitches based on their convinience and Pakistan is no different. Yes, due to climatic situation and soil texture, certain pitches are not possible in some places. For example, no curators in Asia can leave grass and expect it to seam around for 3 days like in England. The heat will ensure the grass will dry by tea on 1st day. Similarly, UAE cant produce India like spinning pitch due to soil content etc.

Pakistan take as much home advantage as any other home team. Just because they play their home matches in Dubai...does not mean its like away game for them

The PCB has no control over curators that are not employed by them. It is a simple concept. Think it over, you should have the brains for it.

"Pakistan take as much home advantage as any other home team", this is a completely false statement. The UAE is not their home so they obviously do not get as much advantage as teams who play their home matches in their home country. Having no control over the pitches is one aspect, the lack of fan support and the comfort of the players are some others that you fail to consider.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Yasir Shah, anywhere in the world.



I disagree. Ashwin has looked pretty ordinary on quite a few occasions when he hasn't been given rank turners. India's two most recent home series against England, as well as their tours of England prove my point. He was outbowled by both Moeen and Maharaj in England and South Africa, respectively. All these series had pitches that provided some support to the spinners but Ashwin blew it.

He has never been the best spinner in the world. For the first half of his career, he was overshadowed by Ajmal and Swann and in more recent times, Herath and Shah have been better. His numbers are inflated by virtue of bowling on some absolute rank turners. You don't have to believe me but his countryman, Harbhajjan said so as well.

Really?

 

[Bilal7]

If Ashwin has such numbers only because of rank turners, no issues. That just means that PPers here agree that Kohli and Pujara are the greatest players of spin because they average in the mid 60s in SC, especially Kohli should then be regarded as the GOAT well ahead of Bradman, Viv, Sachin, Lara etc. Win-win situation for us Indians, either Ashwin comes out on top or our batsmen. You can't logically blast Ashwin and the very next line call Kohli a FTB .

Except that the same Mohali pitch can be a batting paradise against a team like Sri Lanka and a rank turner for a team like South Africa.

Are there any examples of Kohli doing well on rank turners? There are many examples of Kohli failing on rank turners and Ashwin failing whenever the Indian curators have prepared flatter pitches. The two home series against England are the best example of the latter.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Yasir not even had chance to bowl on India type moon dust wickets that turn from ball 1, of he did he would probably be taking 10 wickets in a day all the time.

UAE surfaces arent as spin friendly as rest of asia.

False comparison.... Yasir doesn't bowl on raging Bunsen burners like Ashwin does regularly.

Yet to see Yasir on a rank dust bowl turner, where Ashwin plays.

So until then, can't really say.

Yasir mostly bowls on lifeless pitches which only turn significantly on day 4/5.

In theory he might do better on dust bowlers than Ash.

Honest question then. What's your opinion on Pujara and Kohli who thrive on such pitches. Pujara's resume is outstanding and even Kohli averages 60+ there. Will it be a fair assessment to call Pujara the GOAT batsman against spin and Kohli the GOAT test batsman?

 

[Canford Cliffs]

The PCB has no control over curators that are not employed by them. It is a simple concept. Think it over, you should have the brains for it.

"Pakistan take as much home advantage as any other home team", this is a completely false statement. The UAE is not their home so they obviously do not get as much advantage as teams who play their home matches in their home country. Having no control over the pitches is one aspect, the lack of fan support and the comfort of the players are some others that you fail to consider.

Sorry bro...again you are wrong. No country board employ curators. For example, BCCI dont employ any curators. When they play at Eden Gardens for example, they rent the stadium from ACB (Association of Cricket in Bengal). Its exactly similar to how PCB rent the stadium from UAE board. So PCB has full control over UAE pitches as much as BCCI has for any Indian venues. The only caveat is ICC events, where ICC instructs what pitches needed.

 

[the_outsider]

OMG do you remember club level bowler from aus who create hovic in test series against number 1 rank team

Nice try. Except it's yet another shameless lie.

O'Keefe picked 12 wickets in the Pune test on a rank turner (as I have already mentioned).

And in the next 3 tests he picked 7 wickets for 372 runs at an earth-shattering avg of 53.

And yet a part-timer from Australian D team kept picking wickets every time he bolwed and averaged 22.5 in the series.

 

[Bilal7]

Trust some posters to lie out of his teeth just to ensure that the narrative suits his personal agenda.

They don't come here to debate or discuss things. They come here to dump their **** on others.

The difference in the avg for spinners in India and UAE is about 2 runs. The difference in SR is about 6 balls.

Yet every Indian pitch is a rank turner and every UAE pitch deader than my great grandmother.

But at the same time, on these same UAE pitches a noob like Laubuschange was embarrassing the opposition batsmen on day 1 and day 2 pitches. Weird huh?

In Asia, the difference in average between Ashwin and Shah is about 1.5 runs and the difference in SR is about two balls. Thank you very much for admitting that Ashwin's stats are better simply because he bowls in India.

That is what people have been trying to teach you. Thankfully, you are a special case that can teach itself. )

 

[saeed5646]

Honest question then. What's your opinion on Pujara and Kohli who thrive on such pitches. Pujara's resume is outstanding and even Kohli averages 60+ there. Will it be a fair assessment to call Pujara the GOAT batsman against spin and Kohli the GOAT test batsman?

why would any one question kohli run scoring this guy have piled up runs on most difficult pitches

 

[the_outsider]

In Asia, the difference in average between Ashwin and Shah is about 1.5 runs and the difference in SR is about two balls. Thank you very much for admitting that Ashwin's stats are better simply because he bowls in India.

That is what people have been trying to teach you. Thankfully, you are a special case that can teach itself. )

And what is the reason for the difference between Ashwin's 336 test wickets & 26 5fers and Yasir's 189 wickets and 16 5fers?

And while you're at it please also explain why Ashwin has 200 LOI wickets and Yasir has 19.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Bilal7]

Sorry bro...again you are wrong. No country board employ curators. For example, BCCI dont employ any curators. When they play at Eden Gardens for example, they rent the stadium from ACB (Association of Cricket in Bengal). Its exactly similar to how PCB rent the stadium from UAE board. So PCB has full control over UAE pitches as much as BCCI has for any Indian venues. The only caveat is ICC events, where ICC instructs what pitches needed.

The BCCI is the overarching body even if it does not pay the salary of these curators. I did not want to be too technical but the basic premise is that the UAE is an independent cricket board that will not allow a foreign board to dictate how their pitches should play out.

Have you ever seen a Pakistani coach or captain conversing with a UAE curator and demanding a specific type of pitch like Shastri has done?

 

[Bilal7]

And what is the reason for the difference between Ashwin's 336 test wickets & 26 5fers and Yasir's 189 wickets and 16 5fers?

And while you're at it please also explain why Ashwin has 200 LOI wickets and Yasir has 19.

Looking forward to it.

The. Number. Of. Matches.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Except that the same Mohali pitch can be a batting paradise against a team like Sri Lanka and a rank turner for a team like South Africa.

Are there any examples of Kohli doing well on rank turners? There are many examples of Kohli failing on rank turners and Ashwin failing whenever the Indian curators have prepared flatter pitches. The two home series against England are the best example of the latter.

No Mohali was a stinker, it was a rank turner irrespective of who played. I agree there are some 4-5 home pitches we laid out in the last 6-7 years that favored spinners a lot. But haven't England/SA laid down 4-5 similar pitches in the same time frame? Even Pakistan have had such pitches eg the series against England which they won 3-0. You can't isolate 4-5 matches and make a generalization, on an average Indian pitches have feature large scores this decade, otherwise our batsmen would have very poor numbers.

Kohli hasn't been as prolific as Pujara or even Vijay/Rahul for that matter when it comes to rank turners, but there have been very few of those. Let the sample size get bigger, then we can make a final call. Ashwin has done well on flatter pitches like Australia 2013 (home), Sri Lanka 2015 (away), WI 2016 (away), NZ 2016 (home) and a few more. He flunked against England in 2012 when he was a rookie. In 2016 against England he made a big contribution in the 1st 4 matches, all played on flat wickets. His poor returns in Chennai (which featured many dropped catches) made his overall figures shine less bright but when the series was alive he really rocked the English batsmen. It is similar to our tour to SA this year, ABDV was the difference in the 2 live tests but failed in Johannesburg, but those who saw the full series know it was him who won them the series.

 

[RainMan_]

Opinion of a neutral cricket fan:

Ashwin and yasir both r good spinner on pitches that swits spin bowling but sadly both of them r quite mediocre when it comes to bowling in challenging conditions of Aus, Eng, SA and NZ. There r other spinners from Asia who r miles better than these two if u take overall performance into consideration.


Now I am not gonna derail this thread since this thread is about spinners who r deadly on Asian pitches.


If that's the only criteria then we can safely say that Yasir is way better than Ashwin as far as bowling in Asia is concerned. Ashwin bowls on square turners of India while yasir bowls on dead pitches of UAE. India gets demaeits points on a regular basis for preparing doctored unplayable pitches whereas PAK has never got it.


This just proves the fact that Ashwin has inflated Averages due to him playing on doctored Indian wickets where bowlers like O'keefe (excuse the spelling) or Moeen ran through the batting lineup. Thus just illustrates the point that Ashwin's average in India should be taken with a pinch of salt. We can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Yasur Shah would have done on those pitches. If u look at their comparitive bowling average in SL u'll get a pretty good idea avout who's actually better than whom.

Yasir has always out bowled Ashwin whenever he got a level playing field. So Yasir in Asian condition is better than Ashwin.

 

[saeed5646]

Nice try. Except it's yet another shameless lie.

O'Keefe picked 12 wickets in the Pune test on a rank turner (as I have already mentioned).

And in the next 3 tests he picked 7 wickets for 372 runs at an earth-shattering avg of 53.

And yet a part-timer from Australian D team kept picking wickets every time he bolwed and averaged 22.5 in the series.

who is lying to whom?
Matches
4
Wkts
19
Ave
23.26
Eco
2.46
SR
56.57

this are stats of steven okeefe in indian test series he was man of the match in one test

so these are actual figure of Marnus Labuschagne in test series in uae

Mats
2
Inns
3
Wkts
4
Ave
28.00
Eco
4.14
SR
40.50

i expose you again please do your maths before posting as you always put fake numbers

 

[the_outsider]

The. Number. Of. Matches.

Precisely. Let's not ask ourselves why one of them wasn't good enough to be in the team for more than 19 ODIs.

Is Ambati Rayadu a better batsman than Anwar and Inzaman? His avg is better than both. Let's ignore the number of runs they have scored, right?

 

[Bilal7]

No Mohali was a stinker, it was a rank turner irrespective of who played. I agree there are some 4-5 home pitches we laid out in the last 6-7 years that favored spinners a lot. But haven't England/SA laid down 4-5 similar pitches in the same time frame? Even Pakistan have had such pitches eg the series against England which they won 3-0. You can't isolate 4-5 matches and make a generalization, on an average Indian pitches have feature large scores this decade, otherwise our batsmen would have very poor numbers.

Kohli hasn't been as prolific as Pujara or even Vijay/Rahul for that matter when it comes to rank turners, but there have been very few of those. Let the sample size get bigger, then we can make a final call. Ashwin has done well on flatter pitches like Australia 2013 (home), Sri Lanka 2015 (away), WI 2016 (away), NZ 2016 (home) and a few more. He flunked against England in 2012 when he was a rookie. In 2016 against England he made a big contribution in the 1st 4 matches, all played on flat wickets. His poor returns in Chennai (which featured many dropped catches) made his overall figures shine less bright but when the series was alive he really rocked the English batsmen. It is similar to our tour to SA this year, ABDV was the difference in the 2 live tests but failed in Johannesburg, but those who saw the full series know it was him who won them the series.

I stopped reading after your first paragraph. What are you even saying? We are discussing Yasir Shah and Ashwin in Asia and for some reason you are referring to England and South Africa? Who cares what they do, that is not what we are discussing.

The 3:0 series win over England was achieved on some of the best pitches of this decade. They offered to good spinners, batsmen and bowlers. Umar Gul had a fantastic series, as did Anderson, I believe. Alastair Cook had a good series with the bat and Misbah scored a couple of 80s. Azhar and Khan hit centuries and the spinners, of course were excellent.

This was not the case in Mohali and Nagpur. That was a buffet for anyone who could tweek his arm. Everyone knows that India doctors their pitches and sometimes they support the batsmen and other times, the spinners. The difference between the respective averages of Ashwin and Shah in Asia, has been explained in embarassing fashion by a poster previously.

 

[topspin]

If Ashwin has such numbers only because of rank turners, no issues. That just means that PPers here agree that Kohli and Pujara are the greatest players of spin because they average in the mid 60s in SC, especially Kohli should then be regarded as the GOAT well ahead of Bradman, Viv, Sachin, Lara etc. Win-win situation for us Indians, either Ashwin comes out on top or our batsmen. You can't logically blast Ashwin and the very next line call Kohli a FTB .

This precisely sums up the problem with the green tinted hype brigade. On one hand Kohli is a FTB but on the other Ashwin is a rank turner bully. You can't have it both ways.

 

[saeed5646]

Nice try. Except it's yet another shameless lie.

O'Keefe picked 12 wickets in the Pune test on a rank turner (as I have already mentioned).

And in the next 3 tests he picked 7 wickets for 372 runs at an earth-shattering avg of 53.

And yet a part-timer from Australian D team kept picking wickets every time he bolwed and averaged 22.5 in the series.

who is lying to whom?
Matches
4
Wkts
19
Ave
23.26
Eco
2.46
SR
56.57

this are stats of steven okeefe in indian test series he was man of the match in one test

so these are actual figure of Marnus Labuschagne in test series in uae

Mats
2
Inns
3
Wkts
4
Ave
28.00
Eco
4.14
SR
40.50

i expose you again please do your maths before posting as you always put fake numbers

so much chest pump of Labuschagne only 4 wicket that too of averging 28 rather than your fake wrong calculation of 23 )))

 

[Swashbuckler]

 

[RainMan_]

And what is the reason for the difference between Ashwin's 336 test wickets & 26 5fers and Yasir's 189 wickets and 16 5fers?

And while you're at it please also explain why Ashwin has 200 LOI wickets and Yasir has 19.

Looking forward to it.

Ashwin bowls on doctored wickets of India. India is infamous for getting warnings from icc for preparing unplayable doctored wickets on a regular basis whereas I don't think Pak has ever got any warning from ICC. That's the reason of Ashwin's inflated average in Asia.

Pitches where nobody like o'keefe or Moeen ran through the opposition batting lineup, u can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Tasir would have done on those wickets.

 

[saeed5646]

Opinion of a neutral cricket fan:

Ashwin and yasir both r good spinner on pitches that swits spin bowling but sadly both of them r quite mediocre when it comes to bowling in challenging conditions of Aus, Eng, SA and NZ. There r other spinners from Asia who r miles better than these two if u take overall performance into consideration.


Now I am not gonna derail this thread since this thread is about spinners who r deadly on Asian pitches.


If that's the only criteria then we can safely say that Yasir is way better than Ashwin as far as bowling in Asia is concerned. Ashwin bowls on square turners of India while yasir bowls on dead pitches of UAE. India gets demaeits points on a regular basis for preparing doctored unplayable pitches whereas PAK has never got it.


This just proves the fact that Ashwin has inflated Averages due to him playing on doctored Indian wickets where bowlers like O'keefe (excuse the spelling) or Moeen ran through the batting lineup. Thus just illustrates the point that Ashwin's average in India should be taken with a pinch of salt. We can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Yasur Shah would have done on those pitches. If u look at their comparitive bowling average in SL u'll get a pretty good idea avout who's actually better than whom.

Yasir has always out bowled Ashwin whenever he got a level playing field. So Yasir in Asian condition is better than Ashwin.

finally good sensible post

 

[the_outsider]

who is lying to whom?
Matches
4
Wkts
19
Ave
23.26
Eco
2.46
SR
56.57

this are stats of steven okeefe in indian test series he was man of the match in one test

so these are actual figure of Marnus Labuschagne in test series in uae

Mats
2
Inns
3
Wkts
4
Ave
28.00
Eco
4.14
SR
40.50

i expose you again please do your maths before posting as you always put fake numbers

Looks like you need a few more classes in school. What did I post?

"O'Keefe picked 12 wickets in the Pune test on a rank turner (as I have already mentioned).

And in the next 3 tests he picked 7 wickets for 372 runs at an earth-shattering avg of 53"

12 plus 7 kitna hota hain beta?


And I would also suggest you to double check your stats before posting them here. It helps.

Because Laubuschange picked 7 wickets in the series at 22.4.
2 wickets in the 1st test and 5 wickets in the 2nd. Check again.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ashwin bowls on doctored wickets of India. India is infamous for getting warnings from icc for preparing unplayable doctored wickets on a regular basis whereas I don't think Pak has ever got any warning from ICC. That's the reason of Ashwin's inflated average in Asia.

Pitches where nobody like o'keefe or Moeen ran through the opposition batting lineup, u can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Tasir would have done on those wickets.

Moeen wasn't successful in India. O Keefe had 1 great test, his stocks returned to normal after that.

 

[Bilal7]

Precisely. Let's not ask ourselves why one of them wasn't good enough to be in the team for more than 19 ODIs.

Is Ambati Rayadu a better batsman than Anwar and Inzaman? His avg is better than both. Let's ignore the number of runs they have scored, right?

If you want to claim that Ashwin is a better LOI bowler than Shah, go right ahead. No one cares. Neither of them are considered good enough to get a LOI game these days anyways.

You have already stated the difference between the average and SR of Ashwin and Shah is down to where they play their home matches. That is the thread for me but you can carry out making off-topic comments about LOI matches, Rayudu and Inzamam.

 

[saeed5646]

This precisely sums up the problem with the green tinted hype brigade. On one hand Kohli is a FTB but on the other Ashwin is a rank turner bully. You can't have it both ways.

i tried to lurk in this thread and find out who is saying kohli is FTB and i only found one person .so how come you have come to this conclusion about pakistani fans ?

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yasir not even had chance to bowl on India type moon dust wickets that turn from ball 1, of he did he would probably be taking 10 wickets in a day all the time.

UAE surfaces arent as spin friendly as rest of asia.

Do you know what is SHane warne's record in India?

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Opinion of a neutral cricket fan:

Ashwin and yasir both r good spinner on pitches that swits spin bowling but sadly both of them r quite mediocre when it comes to bowling in challenging conditions of Aus, Eng, SA and NZ. There r other spinners from Asia who r miles better than these two if u take overall performance into consideration.


Now I am not gonna derail this thread since this thread is about spinners who r deadly on Asian pitches.


If that's the only criteria then we can safely say that Yasir is way better than Ashwin as far as bowling in Asia is concerned. Ashwin bowls on square turners of India while yasir bowls on dead pitches of UAE. India gets demaeits points on a regular basis for preparing doctored unplayable pitches whereas PAK has never got it.


This just proves the fact that Ashwin has inflated Averages due to him playing on doctored Indian wickets where bowlers like O'keefe (excuse the spelling) or Moeen ran through the batting lineup. Thus just illustrates the point that Ashwin's average in India should be taken with a pinch of salt. We can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Yasur Shah would have done on those pitches. If u look at their comparitive bowling average in SL u'll get a pretty good idea avout who's actually better than whom.

Yasir has always out bowled Ashwin whenever he got a level playing field. So Yasir in Asian condition is better than Ashwin.

Think you are wrong that Ashwin only bowls well in doctored Indian pitches.

A) Ashwin perhaps bowled best in his career in 2015 SL tour which was Sangakkara's last series. He outbowled Herath by long margin and got Sanga out in each innings of that series. He end up MOS in that tour. The pitches on that tour were very sporting and far from rank turner.

B) Since 2016 he suffered from sports hernia and never the same bowler again. He is getting outbowled now by Kuldeep even in India.

C) India has not dished out rank turners for last 3 - 3.5 years. All the pitches of when Eng toured us in 2016 or Aust tour last year were sporting wickets. Except BD, I don't think any Asian team is doctoring pitches currently. There is a reason why absolutely gargabe bowlers like Taiju and Mehedi etc. are looking great on those tracks.

D) Yasir and Ashwin never played on level field bcoz Ind-Pak dont play test cricket. They played only 1 ODI game together in 2015 WC where Ashwin outbowled him by huge margin (That was Ashwin pre hernia injury).

 

[the_outsider]

Ashwin bowls on doctored wickets of India. India is infamous for getting warnings from icc for preparing unplayable doctored wickets on a regular basis whereas I don't think Pak has ever got any warning from ICC. That's the reason of Ashwin's inflated average in Asia.

Pitches where nobody like o'keefe or Moeen ran through the opposition batting lineup, u can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Tahir would have done on those wickets.

Aren't you the one who thinks Shakib with his bowling avg of 32 in BD is an ATG?

And if you think Indian pitches are doctored compared to BD pitches. )

And btw, Tahir did bowl on actual turners in India in 2015. He got 14 wickets at an avg of 21. Unfortunately for him he was overshadowed by Ashwin who took 31 wickets in that series at an avg of 11.

You have embarrassed yourself quite regularly on PP. But for me, this Tahir fail is the best.

 

[Bilal7]

Moeen wasn't successful in India. O Keefe had 1 great test, his stocks returned to normal after that.

The difference between the averages of spinners in India and spinners in the UAE is 2 points and the difference in SR is 6 points, according to one poster here.

The difference between the average of Ashwin in Asia and Shah in Asia is about 1.5 points and the difference in SR is around 2 points.

Even an ape can see that this proves that Ashwin's stats are inflated due to bowling in India.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ashwin's poor fitness and chronic sports hernia may end his career. He is in severe decline now but till 2016 end I had never seen such a dominating Indian test cricketer like Ashwin on SC pitches, not even Sachin, Kumble, Kohli or Sehwag. A true artist who is paying the price for not taking fitness seriously, when he is in the zone he is a treat to watch. I can't get the same enjoyment from others the way Ashwin gave against Sanga/Matthews in 2015 Sri Lanka or in WI a year later, great career no matter how it ends. Yasir too is a champion but we can come to a conclusion only after both careers end.

 

[the_outsider]

i tried to lurk in this thread and find out who is saying kohli is FTB and i only found one person .so how come you have come to this conclusion about pakistani fans ?

Either you are not man enough to accept it or you simply don't hang around enough to know.

But before the English tour, many posters here, (including our resident Canadian) criticized Kohli by calling him a FTB all the time. So please

 

[saeed5646]

Looks like you need a few more classes in school. What did I post?

"O'Keefe picked 12 wickets in the Pune test on a rank turner (as I have already mentioned).

And in the next 3 tests he picked 7 wickets for 372 runs at an earth-shattering avg of 53"

12 plus 7 kitna hota hain beta?


And I would also suggest you to double check your stats before posting them here. It helps.

Because Laubuschange picked 7 wickets in the series at 22.4.
2 wickets in the 1st test and 5 wickets in the 2nd. Check again.

do you know basic concept of overall stats i just posted the okeefe all wicket in the series which was still outstanding for club level bowler okeefe is and the same okeefe who was averging over 130 against pakistan in uae

i apologies for laubuschange stats you are right he took 7 wicket in the series

 

[saeed5646]

Either you are not man enough to accept it or you simply don't hang around enough to know.

But before the English tour, many posters here, (including our resident Canadian) criticized Kohli by calling him a FTB all the time. So please

i was specifically talking about this thread and i don,t why would i not rate king kohli .i admire class unlike you who think a hack like rahul is more talented than kohli i have never come with this gem

 

[the_outsider]

If you want to claim that Ashwin is a better LOI bowler than Shah, go right ahead. No one cares. Neither of them are considered good enough to get a LOI game these days anyways.

You have already stated the difference between the average and SR of Ashwin and Shah is down to where they play their home matches. That is the thread for me but you can carry out making off-topic comments about LOI matches, Rayudu and Inzamam.

Either stick to one logic or

If you're going to claim that a bowler with 56% of the number of test wickets that Ashwin has is somehow better than Ashwin, then you better have a convincing reason for it.

And if you can't, then you must tell us why Yasir is better than Jadeja when Yasir's avg is 26 and Jadeja's is 20.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yasir Shah, anywhere in the world.



I disagree. Ashwin has looked pretty ordinary on quite a few occasions when he hasn't been given rank turners. India's two most recent home series against England, as well as their tours of England prove my point. He was outbowled by both Moeen and Maharaj in England and South Africa, respectively. All these series had pitches that provided some support to the spinners but Ashwin blew it.

He has never been the best spinner in the world. For the first half of his career, he was overshadowed by Ajmal and Swann and in more recent times, Herath and Shah have been better. His numbers are inflated by virtue of bowling on some absolute rank turners. You don't have to believe me but his countryman, Harbhajjan said so as well.

Then you have not watched Ashwin enough. He has more guile than (without resorting to chucking) most of the spinners. He had odd failures. But prior to injury he was the boss. He was simply magical. Even some of his straighter ones would be absolutely lethal. Kumble had 10 times more helpful pitches in the 90s. Still he has not done what Ashwin has done.

 

[the_outsider]

Either stick to one logic or

If you're going to claim that a bowler with 56% of the number of test wickets that Ashwin has is somehow better than Ashwin, then you better have a convincing reason for it.

And if you can't, then you must tell us why Yasir is better than Jadeja when Yasir's avg is 24 and Jadeja's is 20.

Correction

 

[Hawkeye]

Honest question then. What's your opinion on Pujara and Kohli who thrive on such pitches. Pujara's resume is outstanding and even Kohli averages 60+ there. Will it be a fair assessment to call Pujara the GOAT batsman against spin and Kohli the GOAT test batsman?

Both very very good batsmen against spin. But, they both do not face Ashwin on those rank turners.

Only mediocre spinners like Elgar, Ali, et al.

 

[the_outsider]

Both very very good batsmen against spin. But, they both do not face Ashwin on those rank turners.

Only mediocre spinners like Elgar, Ali, et al.

They have faced both faced Swann, Panesar, Herath, Lyon and Tahir as well.

 

[the_outsider]

Either stick to one logic or

If you're going to claim that a bowler with 56% of the number of test wickets that Ashwin has is somehow better than Ashwin, then you better have a convincing reason for it.

And if you can't, then you must tell us why Yasir is better than Jadeja when Yasir's avg is 24 and Jadeja's is 20.

You should not not hide now [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]

I'm sure you were beaming with joy that you thoight you found a loophole to show how Yasir is better than Ashwin.

Now please are also show us how Yasir is better than Jadeja in Asia.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ashwin after injury is not the same. An inform Ashwin is more deadly than any spinner i have ever seen apart from Murali/Warne. Ashwin is an artist. Such a beautiful bowler to watch when on song.

 

[RainMan_]

Aren't you the one who thinks Shakib with his bowling avg of 32 in BD is an ATG?

And if you think Indian pitches are doctored compared to BD pitches. )

And btw, Tahir did bowl on actual turners in India in 2015. He got 14 wickets at an avg of 21. Unfortunately for him he was overshadowed by Ashwin who took 31 wickets in that series at an avg of 11.

You have embarrassed yourself quite regularly on PP. But for me, this Tahir fail is the best.

Pls don't try to put word on my mouth. Why r u talking about tahir here? We r talking about Yasir here and what could have he done if he had bowled on doctored Indian wickets
So stick to the topic pls.

Yasir has never bowled on square turners where ashwin regularly bowls which is why he has an inflated average in Asia. But whenever Yasir got chance to bowl on similar types of wickets he has outbowled Ashwin. Example - in srilanka. That's the whole premise of my argument.

But as usual u r trying to divert the topic as a face saving measure. Pls stick to the topic

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ashwin's poor fitness and chronic sports hernia may end his career. He is in severe decline now but till 2016 end I had never seen such a dominating Indian test cricketer like Ashwin on SC pitches, not even Sachin, Kumble, Kohli or Sehwag. A true artist who is paying the price for not taking fitness seriously, when he is in the zone he is a treat to watch. I can't get the same enjoyment from others the way Ashwin gave against Sanga/Matthews in 2015 Sri Lanka or in WI a year later, great career no matter how it ends. Yasir too is a champion but we can come to a conclusion only after both careers end.

Spot on. Ashwin is pure magical when on song. It is like watching VVS Laxman batting SO beautiful to watch.

 

[Hawkeye]

They have faced both faced Swann, Panesar, Herath, Lyon and Tahir as well.

Herath is very good. Others not really. YK, Misbah, played with them for fun.

But like I said, both players are excellent players of spin regardless. Of course not comparable with Yk/Misbah who were spin legends.

 

[topspin]

i tried to lurk in this thread and find out who is saying kohli is FTB and i only found one person .so how come you have come to this conclusion about pakistani fans ?

I won't name any posters but before this year's England series he was known by some while others merely implied he was a FTB citing he can't play against swing or seam.

There was even a thread made because of this theory, where the OP suggested Babar Azam would have a better record if he was playing his home matches in India.

Kohli's performances over the summer in England have silenced/dampened those critics.

 

[topspin]

Ashwin would be my pick on a turning wicket because he is more accurate while Yasir would be more of a risk in a potentially low scoring game since he leaks more runs.

On a non turning wicket, I would also pick him ahead of Yasir because outside Asia, it's more about containing the batsmen and building pressure. The India finger spin is a better bowler defensively and also he generates more bounce.

 

[the_outsider]

Pls don't try to put word on my mouth. Why r u talking about tahir here? We r talking about Yasir here and what could have he done if he had bowled on doctored Indian wickets
So stick to the topic pls.

Yasir has never bowled on square turners where ashwin regularly bowls which is why he has an inflated average in Asia. But whenever Yasir got chance to bowl on similar types of wickets he has outbowled Ashwin. Example - in srilanka. That's the whole premise of my argument.

But as usual u r trying to divert the topic as a face saving measure. Pls stick to the topic

Interactive that you sidestepped the Shakib point and how he bowls on the most doctored pitches in the world.

And btw spin bowling avg in India is 2 runs less than it is in UAE. So I would love to hear how Indian pitches are turners and UAE pitches are flat. until you give am answer to this I won't bother with your anti-India hate. Everyone here knows how you cry all the time about India. It's very well documented around here. So much for your opinion as a "neutral viewer" like you claimed. No wonder you get slagged so much by everyone here. :sehwag

And last but not the least - Yasir in SL has 24 wickets at 19.5 and Ashwin has 38 wickets at 21.5

 

[topspin]

Either you are not man enough to accept it or you simply don't hang around enough to know.

But before the English tour, many posters here, (including our resident Canadian) criticized Kohli by calling him a FTB all the time. So please

I remember it very well, every month for the last few years he would lecture everyone on PP how he's a FTB. At the end of the series rather than accepting he was wrong, all he had to say was Amla and YK were better in England lol.

Before the whitewash NZ series we were also informed by him that Babar > Kohli in ODIs because he was averaging 58 having padded up his stats against lower ranked sides like SL and WI. After this series he then said something along the lines of "I believe Babar will surpass Kohli, so it makes no difference".

Finally he would pick Junaid over Shaheen which sums up his delusions.

Posts like these ^ lower the quality of the forum altogether and are simply not worth anyone's time if they are serious about cricket.

 

[the_outsider]

I remember it very well, every month for the last few years he would lecture everyone on PP how he's a FTB. At the end of the series rather than accepting he was wrong, all he had to say was Amla and YK were better in England lol.

Before the whitewash NZ series we were also informed by him that Babar > Kohli in ODIs because he was averaging 58 having padded up his stats against lower ranked sides like SL and WI. After this series he then said something along the lines of "I believe Babar will surpass Kohli, so it makes no difference".

Posts like these ^ lower the quality of the forum altogether and are simply not worth anyone's time if they are serious about cricket.

Him and our favorite Bangladeshe here are cut from the same cloth.

Just like he ran away after [MENTION=147347]Canford Cliffs[/MENTION] put him in his place for his rubbish post about Kapil in the Shakib Al Hasan thread.

Same way our Canadian friend runs away everytime he realises that he can't twist facts to show off his favorite player as the best in the world.

More than the attitude it's their close-mindedness which spoils all the fun about having debates on a forum. They don't come here to discuss and challenge each other. They only come here to push their propaganda on others. If they can't prove themselves right, they'll just vanish.

They are like that one kid we all used to know. The one who would take his bat and leave as soon as he got out. LOL.

 

[DRsohail]

Opinion of a neutral cricket fan:

Ashwin and yasir both r good spinner on pitches that swits spin bowling but sadly both of them r quite mediocre when it comes to bowling in challenging conditions of Aus, Eng, SA and NZ. There r other spinners from Asia who r miles better than these two if u take overall performance into consideration.


Now I am not gonna derail this thread since this thread is about spinners who r deadly on Asian pitches.


If that's the only criteria then we can safely say that Yasir is way better than Ashwin as far as bowling in Asia is concerned. Ashwin bowls on square turners of India while yasir bowls on dead pitches of UAE. India gets demaeits points on a regular basis for preparing doctored unplayable pitches whereas PAK has never got it.


This just proves the fact that Ashwin has inflated Averages due to him playing on doctored Indian wickets where bowlers like O'keefe (excuse the spelling) or Moeen ran through the batting lineup. Thus just illustrates the point that Ashwin's average in India should be taken with a pinch of salt. We can easily imagine what a classical leg spinner like Yasur Shah would have done on those pitches. If u look at their comparitive bowling average in SL u'll get a pretty good idea avout who's actually better than whom.

Yasir has always out bowled Ashwin whenever he got a level playing field. So Yasir in Asian condition is better than Ashwin.

People here will not take you as neutral if you go against them,

 

[the_outsider]

People here will not take you as neutral if you go against them,

People will gladly take each other's as neutrals if they actually are so.

But if someone claims that Shakib Al Hasan is a better AR than Kapil Dev, then he is not doing his reputation as a "neutral" any favours.

 

[DRsohail]

People will gladly take each other's as neutrals if they actually are so.

But if someone claims that Shakib Al Hasan is a better AR than Kapil Dev, then he is not doing his reputation as a "neutral" any favours.

Going by numbers he is right in his own way but i disagree though.

 

[Savak]

Yasir will be lethal if he gets the opportunity to bowl on the fast bouncy turning dustbowls of India.