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On This Day - April 12, 2004: Brian Lara hits 400* against England

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MenInG

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On this day - 400* by Lara against England

Has there been a better innings - a sign of greatness - or was this the most selfish innings ever witnessed in Cricket?
 
Most selfish innings of all time. Ever since Hayden broke his record vs Zimbabwe, Brian Lara pledged to take it back even at the cost of not producing a positive result for his team.

I laugh when people put Tendulkar down for his so-called selfishness but then go on to praise Lara.
 
It was both. It was selfish but it was also a testament to of his talent as a 400 score requires some fine batting. A fine innings. TBH i liked that innings. Always wondered if 400 can be reached in tests and he pulled it off.
 
Lara's 153 and 213 against Australia were both easily better than this knock, and among the 20 greatest knocks ever played IMO.

Although i wouldn't go to the extent of calling the innings selfish , the knock had zero significance in the context of the series, as it came in a dead rubber with Lara having failed in all the previous six innings when it mattered the most. So i would not even rate it as among the top 10 Lara knocks of all time.
 
It was a good innings but no doubt a selfish one he could have declared anytime to force a result but he batted on and on to reclaim his record back from Mathew Hayden.
 
saiyan0312 said:
It was both. It was selfish but it was also a testament to of his talent as a 400 score requires some fine batting. A fine innings. TBH i liked that innings. Always wondered if 400 can be reached in tests and he pulled it off.
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So true.

Both selfish and great skill.

But pointless really. Any team man would have declared way before.

Also here's what I feel about Lara:

Lara has more iconic test innings than Sachin but I get the feeling that most of his great knocks (iconic or not) were in totally pointless matches and innings.

I mean everyone has such knocks but I feel Lara has much much more than anyone else.

Not talking after analyzing stats but through general observation and reading about some random stats.
 
Was it a selfish innings? Really? It took Lara only 582 balls to get 400, a strike rate of nearly 70 - one of the fastest triple hundreds (8th) in history. And WI scored 751 at a run rate of nearly 4 per over. WI would have won the match but for stubborn English resistance that lasted nearly 250 overs. In the second innings, conditions were so batsman friendly that WI could get just 5 wickets in 137 overs. What would have happened had Lara declared a session earlier? Just another draw, nothing more.

People just look at his personal score of 400 and conclude that it must have been a selfish one, without considering the pace at which it was scored or the match context, which was a dull draw anyway due to the flattish wicket. If this innings was selfish, then nearly every triple hundred scored in history were selfish ones because most of them were much slower than Lara's.

When Amla hit a 300 recently it was hailed as a great knock, but Amla's innings was much slower than Lara's 400 - Amla took many more balls to reach 311 than Lara took to get to 400. If WI had declared with Lara on 399, it would have been hailed as a selfless knock - since he chose to complete his 400, it is now called selfish.
 
Selfish innings, should've declared earlier and might have won the Test.
 
IndianWillow said:
Was it a selfish innings? Really? It took Lara only 582 balls to get 400, a strike rate of nearly 70 - one of the fastest triple hundreds (8th) in history. And WI scored 751 at a run rate of nearly 4 per over. WI would have won the match but for stubborn English resistance that lasted nearly 250 overs. In the second innings, conditions were so batsman friendly that WI could get just 5 wickets in 137 overs. What would have happened had Lara declared a session earlier? Just another draw, nothing more.

People just look at his personal score of 400 and conclude that it must have been a selfish one, without considering the pace at which it was scored or the match context, which was a dull draw anyway due to the flattish wicket. If this innings was selfish, then nearly every triple hundred scored in history were selfish ones because most of them were much slower than Lara's.

When Amla hit a 300 recently it was hailed as a great knock, but Amla's innings was much slower than Lara's 400 - Amla took many more balls to reach 311 than Lara took to get to 400. If WI had declared with Lara on 399, it would have been hailed as a selfless knock - since he chose to complete his 400, it is now called selfish.
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Bud, don't see the scrorecard, SR and conclude. Your point is valid if you look at ONLY that.

But here's some unknown fact:

Go here, scroll to the bottom and see when WI declared:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64080.html

Between Lunch and Tea on Day 3 when Lara scored 400.

1 innings over. 3 Days. Till almost tea.

Do you call that a selfless innings?

If that's not selfish. What the hell?
 
Generally scores like 750 are made in 2nd or 3rd innings when a team wants to bat out an opposition from the game.

NOT in first innings where you play for more than 2.5 days and ruin your chances to bowl out the other team (when its obvious the wicket is a flat pancake).

Some things can't be judged by scorecard.

For eg - Blaming the captain for calling back Sachin when he was on 194*. Anyone who had watched the game would tell you Sachin was hufffing and puffing and wasting a hell a lot of time and IT WAS A MISTAKE to have let him near the 180's itself.
 
Saw the innings live and it still feels like it ws yesterday. The old wk also got a hard fought century.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Bud, don't see the scrorecard, SR and conclude. Your point is valid if you look at ONLY that.

But here's some unknown fact:

Go here, scroll to the bottom and see when WI declared:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64080.html

Between Lunch and Tea on Day 3 when Lara scored 400.

1 innings over. 3 Days. Till almost tea.

Do you call that a selfless innings?

If that's not selfish. What the hell?
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Even granting that he slowed towards the end, his last 100 came off only 178 balls, still a very healthy strike rate of close to 60. In a test match, strike rates are rarely uniform, there are phases when the batsmen defend and attack. It was Hinds who contributed to lesser scoring rates in the match with a S/R of only 37 and Jacobs who came last also scored at only S/R of 51, Lara can hardly be described as selfish for having scored at a S/R of close to 70.

WI faced a total of 202 overs only, which is two and quarter days (202/90 = 2.24), and 751 is a very healthy score almost 4 runs per over. They had 250 overs to bowl out England twice, which is normally enough, but wasn't enough on that pitch. If WI had declared earlier, England would have sailed to an easy lead - even with 751, England were just 30 short of making WI bat again, and they had five wickets left.
 
IndianWillow said:
Even granting that he slowed towards the end, his last 100 came off only 178 balls, still a very healthy strike rate of close to 60. In a test match, strike rates are rarely uniform, there are phases when the batsmen defend and attack. It was Hinds who contributed to lesser scoring rates in the match with a S/R of only 37 and Jacobs who came last also scored at only S/R of 51, Lara can hardly be described as selfish for having scored at a S/R of close to 70.

WI faced a total of 202 overs only, which is two and quarter days (202/90 = 2.24), and 751 is a very healthy score almost 4 runs per over. They had 250 overs to bowl out England twice, which is normally enough, but wasn't enough on that pitch. If WI had declared earlier, England would have sailed to an easy lead - even with 751, England were just 30 short of making WI bat again, and they had five wickets left.
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nicely said...people are downplaying this knock a bit too much...
 
Meaningless innings in a dead rubber. Agree with a previous post that te innings in Barbados and the SCG were better.
 
World class. Sachin despite playing more tests than anybody else could not even achieve 1 triple 100 and Lara with less tests has more more than 2 300s.
 
IndianWillow said:
Even granting that he slowed towards the end, his last 100 came off only 178 balls, still a very healthy strike rate of close to 60. In a test match, strike rates are rarely uniform, there are phases when the batsmen defend and attack. It was Hinds who contributed to lesser scoring rates in the match with a S/R of only 37 and Jacobs who came last also scored at only S/R of 51, Lara can hardly be described as selfish for having scored at a S/R of close to 70.

WI faced a total of 202 overs only, which is two and quarter days (202/90 = 2.24), and 751 is a very healthy score almost 4 runs per over. They had 250 overs to bowl out England twice, which is normally enough, but wasn't enough on that pitch. If WI had declared earlier, England would have sailed to an easy lead - even with 751, England were just 30 short of making WI bat again, and they had five wickets left.
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Some good points raised but I did watch the final stages of his innings.

Few points to raise:

1. WI was batting first in the match. When teams that bat first, they usually show lots of urgency to turn a very good score into an unbeatable score. Wasting 178 balls to score the last 100 may seem fine in stats but the 600-750 zone was acceleration period and when you play normally there, a fan is left with the sour taste because its OBVIOUS you are playing for stats.

2. How come? Best example is Sachin's 194. Many people blame the captain for declaring when Sachin was on 194. Theoretically it seemed fine. But I saw the match and I know for a fact that that decision was 100% justified. Sachin was making a mess in that innings. Stats won't say this. In fact it would make many decisions seem ridiculous.

3. Worldwide MANY MANY nuetral fans(who have no hatred or bias towards Lara) don't rate this innings. They call it selfish. Why so?

4. Because on a FLAT TRACK when you have put up a great score like 600, you need to up the tempo to score fast and make as much as possible. Not score normally.It was an innings that every bit looked like a selfish one. That's why most don't rate it high even though it was a MARVELLOUS innings
 
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Re: On this day - 400* by Lara against England

Energetic said:
World class. Sachin despite playing more tests than anybody else could not even achieve 1 triple 100 and Lara with less tests has more more than 2 300s.
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Sehwag achieved two triples and Kallis had zero. Who played more tests?
 
ChaudrySaab said:
It was a good innings but no doubt a selfish one he could have declared anytime to force a result but he batted on and on to reclaim his record back from Mathew Hayden.
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This.

Could have forced an encouraging win, had he declared when on 300.
 
I am British and my wife is West Indian. The 400 was celebrated on the islands for days. There was partying in the streets and the milestole instilled a sense of pride that continues to reverberate to this day.

To people in the Caribbean, the 400 enobles a region that is consumed by massive poverty and various other social issues. As a care-worker in the 1990s, I often had to deal with kids who were bleaching their skin and hair, such was the kind of self-hate endemic on the islands. Lara rekindled a kind of black pride in the region not seen since Clive Lloyd and Viv Richards.

One must also remember that the Colonial scars left by the British still linger and affect the West Indies, and locals viewed every WI vs Aussie/England game from a historical perspective. A common newspaper slogan when Lara batted was "runs for whiplashes", which gives you a feeling of the kind of animosity that was in the air, each run like a rebuke to the slave masters, albeit on a unconscious level; this was a thoroughly post-colonial era. Still, Lara and Tendulkar very much represent the end of the idea of the cricketer as a "class conscious" symbol. The new cricketer is post-modern, a mercenary, a celebrity, dislocated from deeper history, a shift which Lara and Tendulkar both, ironically, unwittingly ushered forward.

Incidentally, in the book MASTERLY BATTING: The 100 greatest test innings, the 400 isn't featured. The book uses complex algorithms to weight the quality of the best test innings. Lara features 5 times (nobody else features more frequently), with a further 3 in the top 150. Still, the 400 and the 501 are massive feats of concentration and willpower, perhaps the most massive feats of cricketing willpower ever witnessed.
 
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Re: On this day - 400* by Lara against England

Haz95 said:
Sachin doesn't have a FC 300...Jadeja has 3 so jadeja is 3 times better than Sachin Tendulkar :sachin #energeticlogic
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But Sir is indeed > even Don. Hence, Don kept a pic of Sir RJ in his house as inspiration.
 
EC666 said:
I am British and my wife is West Indian. The 400 was celebrated on the islands for days. There was partying in the streets and the milestole instilled a sense of pride that continues to reverberate to this day.

To people in the Caribbean, the 400 enobles a region that is consumed by massive poverty and various other social issues. As a care-worker in the 1990s, I often had to deal with kids who were bleaching their skin and hair, such was the kind of self-hate. Lara rekindled a kind of black pride in the region not since Clive Lloyd and Viv Richards.

One must also remember that the Colonial scars left by the British still linger and affect the West Indies, and locals viewed every WI vs Aussie/England game from a historical context. Lara and Tendulkar very much represent the end of the cricketer as "class conscious" symbol. The new cricketer is post-modern, a mercenary, a celebrity, dislocated from deeper history.
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Wow...That's just wow. :14: lara
 
One of the most selfish innings i can recall, clarke had so much time he could have knocked of lara's record and maybe even made 500 a few years ago against india but unlike lara the focus is about the team results.

Records mean nothing when they hurt your own team in the process, it's rather sad that this innings was greeted with so much praise in the west indies, shows how far test cricket has fallen in that part of the world that they cling to such achievements over team results.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Some good points raised but I did watch the final stages of his innings.

Few points to raise:

1. WI was batting first in the match. When teams that bat first, they usually show lots of urgency to turn a very good score into an unbeatable score. Wasting 178 balls to score the last 100 may seem fine in stats but the 600-750 zone was acceleration period and when you play normally there, a fan is left with the sour taste because its OBVIOUS you are playing for stats.
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Against an international bowling side you can never dictate the rate at which you score. Are you trying to say that he should scored at 5rpo between 600-750 instead of 3.5 they scored at? May be they should have, but you may not be able to control the pace at which you score against international bowlers, the English bowling wasn't exactly novice consisting of Ishant Sharma's - they had Harmison and Flintoff, and Mathew Hoggard isn't an average bowler either.

sensible-indian-fan said:
2. How come? Best example is Sachin's 194. Many people blame the captain for declaring when Sachin was on 194. Theoretically it seemed fine. But I saw the match and I know for a fact that that decision was 100% justified. Sachin was making a mess in that innings. Stats won't say this. In fact it would make many decisions seem ridiculous.
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I don't have a problem with this declaration, but those six runs would not have mattered much in the context of the game.

sensible-indian-fan said:
3. Worldwide MANY MANY nuetral fans(who have no hatred or bias towards Lara) don't rate this innings. They call it selfish. Why so?
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Because it was a 400!! Why is his 375 not called selfish even though the strike rates are the same? Even the total score of WI in that match was scored much slower than when Lara got his 400. 400 has psychologically blunted their neutrality, because they thought it was too high a score for a test match!!

sensible-indian-fan said:
4. Because on a FLAT TRACK when you have put up a great score like 600, you need to up the tempo to score fast and make as much as possible. Not score normally.It was an innings that every bit looked like a selfish one. That's why most don't rate it high even though it was a MARVELLOUS innings
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A flat track does not necessarily mean it is good for scoring at will. England got their runs at 2.87 and 3.08 runs per over in their two innings as compared to WI at an impressive 3.71. And the WI bowling attack was one of its weakest - three main bowlers with bowling averages of 35 , 37 and 33 and England could not murder this toothless attack.
 
IndianWillow said:
Against an international bowling side you can never dictate the rate at which you score. Are you trying to say that he should scored at 5rpo between 600-750 instead of 3.5 they scored at? May be they should have, but you may not be able to control the pace at which you score against international bowlers, the English bowling wasn't exactly novice consisting of Ishant Sharma's - they had Harmison and Flintoff, and Mathew Hoggard isn't an average bowler either.
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Let's take your question

Do you want him to score at 5 r.p.o rather than 3.5 r.p.o?

Answer is: Isn't there anything called as context?

There is a difference in strategy when you bat the first in match and the second in match. While batting second, you just have to account for 1 opposition innings which can be done based on prior innings performance, pitch, conditions, target, etc?

When you have to go for 2 innings and you play till mid Day 3 on an easy track amnd you play proper normal cricket in the last phase of your innings, yes that's going to cost your team the game.

If a team is BATTING FIRST and has scored 600 and it looks like a FLAT TRACK, it needs to do some quick calculations.

Declaring at between lunch and tea in Day 3 on a DEAD FLAT track and the match would end in a draw if the other team hangs on to a good score for even 1 innings (since its a flat track).

So what do you do?

You calculate what to do.

So if you need more score, you score fast and ADJUST everything in a way that you declare fast. I am NOT talking about Lara scoring but WI as a team going for it.

Note: Lara isn't called selfish in that innings because of his strike rate (which was fine) BUT because of how late WI declared. There was no coordination to win the match. You can't play till mid Day 3 on a flat track. Plain and simple.

You can't play for 3 days when batting first thinking you are batting out an opposition. If its a hopeless dead track, your calculations go wrong.

Sometimes its BETTER to score a bit less in the first innings, get the opposition out (their score will give you an idea) and move from there.

If you are in a GREAT position to take charge and score fast (cos its a necessity in a dead track) and you score normally, it is implied as selfish even though on a normal case, it isn't.

When you break everything down into pure stats, even Agarkar can be made to look a better ODI bowler than Wasim.

Lara's 400 was a great knock but universally acknowledged as something a bit selfish (by nuetral fans).

Why would Tony Grieg and Ricky ponting call this innings as selfish? I can understand Ponting but why Tony Grieg (a very fair guy)? After all it was a great innings.
 
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Scenario: You are batting on 600 on a flat track.

You have to choose when to declare because you have to ACCOUNT for 2 opposition innings.

Will you bat at 3.5 r.p.o from there on and say its fine?

No, you don't do that.
 
Most Selfish innings ever in the history of International Cricket. I mean who bats for 7-8 sessions purely for his own stats ?

The only reason this Stat has still survived is not because of its greatness but due to lack of same selfishness among other batsmen who could have easily broken it yet chose to declare for the sake of team.

So many other batsmen in the world could have broken this record but they didnt want to be selfish. Thats just goes to show that the record has been built over selfishness instead of greatness
 
Lara was the captain otherwise I really doubt that any sane captain will allow his team to bat for almost around tea on 3rd day when batting first. He was the captain and he took the opportunity to break records.

Batting SR is meaningless and not sure why some of you are discussing that. Point is simple - you are not playing to win the game if you are going to bat till the tea on 3rd day when batting first. It hardly matters how well other team plays or eventual outcome but you give very little chance to yourself to win the game. All that was done for only one reason. To break some record. Same as SL batting for 270+ overs and scoring 950 without trying to win the game.
 
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"When Matty Hayden made 380 against us: on the first ball of the second over, against Andy Blignaut, he was out the plumbest lbw I've ever seen. Then I remember taking the second new ball and - I don't know how many balls into my first over with it - he came yards down the wicket and just smashed it over my head and into the sightscreen for six. I thought then that maybe I shouldn't have taken the new ball after all. I was very happy when Lara got the record back. "- Heath Streak
 
Why shouldn't have Lara gone for his record? Who are we to judge his intentions?
 
MenInG said:
Why shouldn't have Lara gone for his record? Who are we to judge his intentions?
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For the reasons mentioned above by many posters.

Nothing wrong in going for the record but this was done at the cost of the team winning the game.

When you are playing the first innings of the match, you can't play till tea on the 3rd day.

You have to calculate and get whatever records you want inside 2 days or maybe half a session in 3rd day (which itself is a stretch).

Why? Cos in a flat track, you have no idea how long you would need to bowl out the opposition twice.
 
IndianWillow said:
Was it a selfish innings? Really? It took Lara only 582 balls to get 400, a strike rate of nearly 70 - one of the fastest triple hundreds (8th) in history. And WI scored 751 at a run rate of nearly 4 per over. WI would have won the match but for stubborn English resistance that lasted nearly 250 overs. In the second innings, conditions were so batsman friendly that WI could get just 5 wickets in 137 overs. What would have happened had Lara declared a session earlier? Just another draw, nothing more.

People just look at his personal score of 400 and conclude that it must have been a selfish one, without considering the pace at which it was scored or the match context, which was a dull draw anyway due to the flattish wicket. If this innings was selfish, then nearly every triple hundred scored in history were selfish ones because most of them were much slower than Lara's.

When Amla hit a 300 recently it was hailed as a great knock, but Amla's innings was much slower than Lara's 400 - Amla took many more balls to reach 311 than Lara took to get to 400. If WI had declared with Lara on 399, it would have been hailed as a selfless knock - since he chose to complete his 400, it is now called selfish.
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+1

I don’t think it’s fair to call it a selfish knock. WI were getting absolutely hammered that series. Once they were dismissed for less than 50 and another time for less than 100. That’s the sort of pummelling they were getting. So a draw was a win of sorts for them. Besides WI still had around 250 overs to get those 20 wickets. They just didn't have the bowling firepower to drive home the advantage. Any other team with a decent attack would have most likely won it. WI didn’t even have a proper spinner.
 
trogger said:
One of the most selfish innings i can recall, clarke had so much time he could have knocked of lara's record and maybe even made 500 a few years ago against india but unlike lara the focus is about the team results.

Records mean nothing when they hurt your own team in the process, it's rather sad that this innings was greeted with so much praise in the west indies, shows how far test cricket has fallen in that part of the world that they cling to such achievements over team results.
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Totally agree with every word. Garbage cricket.

What everyone forgets is that 'BCL' was actually out for zero in that innings, caught behind off Harmison.
Clear edge - umpire bottled it and didn't give it.
 
Clarke's 329 is the best triple hundred in my memory by a long margin and he could have broken Lara's record and the match result would have been the same. Heck he didn't even break the Australian record.

This is why IMO Clarke is the MVP in Test cricket today, as far as batting is concerned irrespective of how many stats Amla heads dig out.
 
One of the best innings I've ever seen.

Amazing to break the record twice. Greatest batsman of all time. I miss him.
 
Mamoon said:
Clarke's 329 is the best triple hundred in my memory by a long margin and he could have broken Lara's record and the match result would have been the same. Heck he didn't even break the Australian record.

This is why IMO Clarke is the MVP in Test cricket today, as far as batting is concerned irrespective of how many stats Amla heads dig out.
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Wasn't Lara's first 375 great too? Heard a lot about it.

Watched its replay. Looked brutal.

What is MVP?
 
James said:
Totally agree with every word. Garbage cricket.

What everyone forgets is that 'BCL' was actually out for zero in that innings, caught behind off Harmison.
Clear edge - umpire bottled it and didn't give it.
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Nope that wasn't out actually. Trescothick tho I think got away with one in the 2nd innings.
 
Mamoon said:
Clarke's 329 is the best triple hundred in my memory by a long margin and he could have broken Lara's record and the match result would have been the same. Heck he didn't even break the Australian record.

This is why IMO Clarke is the MVP in Test cricket today, as far as batting is concerned irrespective of how many stats Amla heads dig out.
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this 329 was annihilation tho
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63989.html
 
James said:
Totally agree with every word. Garbage cricket.

What everyone forgets is that 'BCL' was actually out for zero in that innings, caught behind off Harmison.
Clear edge - umpire bottled it and didn't give it.
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It wasn't out.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Scenario: You are batting on 600 on a flat track.

You have to choose when to declare because you have to ACCOUNT for 2 opposition innings.

Will you bat at 3.5 r.p.o from there on and say its fine?

No, you don't do that.
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Do I always have the choice to accelerate at 5rpo against an international opposition? They batted till tea on day three due to rain on day one, I think every poster here bypassed that, only 52 overs were bowled on day one. After lunch, play was possible only for the final hour of play. Effectively WI batted two full days, which is quite common in test cricket. Judge for yourself now whether WI declared very late.
 
London_Lahori said:
One of the best innings I've ever seen.
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Seriously?

He himself played numerous better ones, certainly many that were more important.

The 150* chasing against the Aussies (WI won with 1 wicket remaining) would be a case in point.

The 400 is a total red herring. Most of the runs were scored off Gareth Batty. Hardly an ATG spinner...
 
trogger said:
One of the most selfish innings i can recall, clarke had so much time he could have knocked of lara's record and maybe even made 500 a few years ago against india but unlike lara the focus is about the team results.

Records mean nothing when they hurt your own team in the process, it's rather sad that this innings was greeted with so much praise in the west indies, shows how far test cricket has fallen in that part of the world that they cling to such achievements over team results.
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Clarke would have done nothing with the kind of bowlers fielded for that match - average of main WI bowlers for that match is 36.6, with no proper spinner. Sure you can win a match on a flattish wicket with such bowlers.

Clarke was playing at home with deadly bowlers against a depleted Indian side that was white washed 4-0, even an out of form Ponting made a double. Lara was in a totally different situation facing an ignominious series defeat at home having lost 0-3 before this match. WI confidence going into the match was very low, very much unlike Clarke. We all saw what Clarke did when he went behind in the series in India.
 
Apparently his 500-odd in County Cricket was way better than this one.
 
IndianWillow said:
Clarke would have done nothing with the kind of bowlers fielded for that match - average of main WI bowlers for that match is 36.6, with no proper spinner. Sure you can win a match on a flattish wicket with such bowlers.

Clarke was playing at home with deadly bowlers against a depleted Indian side that was white washed 4-0, even an out of form Ponting made a double. Lara was in a totally different situation facing an ignominious series defeat at home having lost 0-3 before this match. WI confidence going into the match was very low, very much unlike Clarke. We all saw what Clarke did when he went behind in the series in India.
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Nicely said again willow :14:
Clarkes 329 was against an Indian side who were already mentally scarred...It wasn't a bad triple but it isn't as good as some are making it.
 
Heck of an effort and surely one of the most iconic and memeroable efforts of all time. Having said, he should have declared much earlier. Anyway, Lara is Lara, i would take a selfish Lara 400 over just another random Pom spanking. :viv
 
IndianWillow said:
Do I always have the choice to accelerate at 5rpo against an international opposition? They batted till tea on day three due to rain on day one, I think every poster here bypassed that, only 52 overs were bowled on day one. After lunch, play was possible only for the final hour of play. Effectively WI batted two full days, which is quite common in test cricket. Judge for yourself now whether WI declared very late.
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All the more reason this becomes a CRIME.

All the more reason.

So let's go by your argument.

If you have just 4 days and you play really well, would you bat out 2 days fully or would you bat out for 1.5 days, put the opposition in and see how things go. You can't anyway lose the match but chances of winning goes up.

The problem was about how late the declaration was.

Plus reg 5 r.p.o....that's not the point. We can argue about 3 r.p.o or 4 r.p.o or 10 r,p,o and that would be pointless.

The point is coordinating everything that you want to do earlier and declaring at the right time.
 
Lara has had many iconic innings in his career.

I don't think any batsman (maybe apart from Don) has had so many iconic innings in Tests.

But this 400 ain't one (its no joke, amazing effort but ain't one).

At the end of the day, Lara was a brute of a batsman.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
All the more reason this becomes a CRIME.

All the more reason.

So let's go by your argument.

If you have just 4 days and you play really well, would you bat out 2 days fully or would you bat out for 1.5 days, put the opposition in and see how things go. You can't anyway lose the match but chances of winning goes up.

The problem was about how late the declaration was.

Plus reg 5 r.p.o....that's not the point. We can argue about 3 r.p.o or 4 r.p.o or 10 r,p,o and that would be pointless.

The point is coordinating everything that you want to do earlier and declaring at the right time.
Click to expand...

But you are totally ignoring the context of the match!!

WI were 3-0 down in the series and their bowlers were utter crap during the series. Which captain do you think will take a chance of going down 4-0 or chasing the leather again in the final test even if ended in a draw?

In the first test, England won by 10 wkts (which also saw WI getting bowled out for 47!!), second by seven wkts, third by eight wickets (again saw WI getting bowled out for 94). Had WI lost the fourth one it would be a home white wash. And that is when Lara 400 comes up, that kind of lifted the gloom and erased the humiliation they were subjected to in the earlier tests.

The wicket is flat, your bowlers are absolutely garbage averaging 36+, they have been thoroughly deflated throughout the series, and you want him to try a sporting declaration on a flat wicket, allowing his bowlers to be flogged again??
 
IndianWillow said:
But you are totally ignoring the context of the match!!

WI were 3-0 down in the series and their bowlers were utter crap during the series. Which captain do you think will take a chance of going down 4-0 or chasing the leather again in the final test even if ended in a draw?

In the first test, England won by 10 wkts (which also saw WI getting bowled out for 47!!), second by seven wkts, third by eight wickets (again saw WI getting bowled out for 94). Had WI lost the fourth one it would be a home white wash. And that is when Lara 400 comes up, that kind of lifted the gloom and erased the humiliation they were subjected to in the earlier tests.

The wicket is flat, your bowlers are absolutely garbage averaging 36+, they have been thoroughly deflated throughout the series, and you want him to try a sporting declaration on a flat wicket, allowing his bowlers to be flogged again??
Click to expand...

There is a difference between sporting declaration, safe declaration and declaration due to record chasing.

Can't club sporting and safe declaration into one.

There is a reason why a lot of posters here (from different countries) feel the way they do about Lara's 400. Not just this place, seen it everywhere. The same reaction.
 
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I agree that this 400 gave WI a lot to cheer about.

But so is any great record.

Sachin 100th 100 gave so much joy to many Indians. Does that make it non selfish?
 
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this 329 was annihilation tho

Inzamam-ul-Haq was such a legend. Inzie and Ranatunga were the last of the loveable, fat, great batsmen.

Regarding Lara's 400, the single criticism raised here is that the 400 jeopardised a win. The argument is that the West Indies team and West Indian supporters deserved a win, and that Lara robbed them of a win. This is nonsense. The draw gave West Indian supporters a bigger victory. Look at the newspaper headlines in the West Indies at the time. They were absolutely hilarious: "Drawing with style!", "The Kings Reclaim Their Crowns", "This is how you stop a White Wash!".

Surely international games are played for nation states. These players are representing their nations. Every West Indian will tell you they got the outcome they wanted.
 
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sensible-indian-fan said:
I agree that this 400 gave WI a lot to cheer about.

But so is any great record.

Sachin 100th 100 gave so much joy to many Indians. Does that make it non selfish?
Click to expand...

Lara 400 saved WI from a series white wash. Sachin 100 robbed India (well, Indian bowlers had a share of it too) of a place in the final. Entirely different things.

For nearly one month, WI was the receiving end of both batting and bowling, and went down 0-3. They got an incredibly sweet revenge by batting England out of the game, and grinding their bowlers to dust. Victory was never on, as the WI bowling attack was very weak, wicket was flat.
 
IndianWillow said:
Lara 400 saved WI from a series white wash. Sachin 100 robbed India (well, Indian bowlers had a share of it too) of a place in the final. Entirely different things.

For nearly one month, WI was the receiving end of both batting and bowling, and went down 0-3. They got an incredibly sweet revenge by batting England out of the game, and grinding their bowlers to dust. Victory was never on, as the WI bowling attack was very weak, wicket was flat.
Click to expand...

We are judging based on cricketing logic here. If you bring in other stuff, that changes the whole dynamics of the argument.

I agree that Lara's 400 would have probably given WI more joy than a win in the last match.

But strictly judging cricketing performance, it was a selfish innings.

A great one but selfish.

Plus remember a SELFISH batting innings in tests can NEVER result in loss unlike ODIs.

If Sachin was selfish in a flat patta in tests, the result would be the same. Either win or draw (most likely).
 
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Over the years many cricketing records which we thought would be impossible to be broken have been broken since the birth of T20 cricket.

Saeed Anwar stayed as the record holder of the highest odi score by a batsmen for a long time, but then that record went on to be broken numerous times.

Shahid Afridi was known for his fast hundred, but even that record was broken many times again

Viv Richards fastest Hundred in test, well Misbah has that achievement too.

But then there is Lara's 400, which still stands till this day, infact no batsmen has ever come close to this record. I could remember only remember when Younis Khan crossed 300 there were talks if he could get to it...
 
Clarke and Amla could have gone for it.
They (specially Clarke) didnt.
 
Major said:
Over the years many cricketing records which we thought would be impossible to be broken have been broken since the birth of T20 cricket.

Saeed Anwar stayed as the record holder of the highest odi score by a batsmen for a long time, but then that record went on to be broken numerous times.

Shahid Afridi was known for his fast hundred, but even that record was broken many times again

Viv Richards fastest Hundred in test, well Misbah has that achievement too.

But then there is Lara's 400, which still stands till this day, infact no batsmen has ever come close to this record. I could remember only remember when Younis Khan crossed 300 there were talks if he could get to it...
Click to expand...

Michael Clarke came very close to it, until he himself declared the innings. I have that innings of Lara in my DVD collection.Some of the sixes he hit during that innings were humongous.
 
That record was in unique circumstances...

West Indies had got battered by England in their previous games, and the series was dead. Subsequently, Andy Roberts, who didn't want to see West Indies get whitewashed, prepared as flat a pitch as possible.

Given the state of the series, and the state of the game in the Caribbean, people really didn't care if West Indies won or lost....their pride was in seeing Lara reclaim his record.

Lara was also the captain of the side, and a big enough name that he could pretty much decide to go for the record to the detriment the chances of his own team winning the game.

In today's world, Test Cricket is being played where there is much more of an onus to play positively, and win games. No captain will sit there and watch someone take the score to 700+ over 3 days so that they can achieve some sort of personal milestone.
 
Don't see it being broken either for the next 5-7 years. That innings was a masterclass.
 
Zahid87 said:
That record was in unique circumstances...

West Indies had got battered by England in their previous games, and the series was dead. Subsequently, Andy Roberts, who didn't want to see West Indies get whitewashed, prepared as flat a pitch as possible.

Given the state of the series, and the state of the game in the Caribbean, people really didn't care if West Indies won or lost....their pride was in seeing Lara reclaim his record.

Lara was also the captain of the side, and a big enough name that he could pretty much decide to go for the record to the detriment the chances of his own team winning the game.

In today's world, Test Cricket is being played where there is much more of an onus to play positively, and win games. No captain will sit there and watch someone take the score to 700+ over 3 days so that they can achieve some sort of personal milestone.
Click to expand...

Spot on, especially about the bit in bold.
 
Zahid87 said:
That record was in unique circumstances...

West Indies had got battered by England in their previous games, and the series was dead. Subsequently, Andy Roberts, who didn't want to see West Indies get whitewashed, prepared as flat a pitch as possible.

Given the state of the series, and the state of the game in the Caribbean, people really didn't care if West Indies won or lost....their pride was in seeing Lara reclaim his record.

Lara was also the captain of the side, and a big enough name that he could pretty much decide to go for the record to the detriment the chances of his own team winning the game.

In today's world, Test Cricket is being played where there is much more of an onus to play positively, and win games. No captain will sit there and watch someone take the score to 700+ over 3 days so that they can achieve some sort of personal milestone.
Click to expand...

Yep. Only a player in a really weak team where drawing the test is the aim could do it.

And there are no batsmen in weak teams capable of scoring anywhere near 400.
 
The goal was to get the achievement, not win the game.
 
There have been plenty of bats that could've gone for it but chose not to. Lara's 400 is over-rated. His 150 vs Aussies is probably his best ton ever.
 
Some people that I think can break that record:
1) AB Devillers
2) Kumar Sangakara
3) Younis Khan might make another 300 but don't see him getting the record :yk2
4) Brendon Mcculum..yes big mac..if he's still playing test that is :yk
 
Sehwag came close to breaking it in 2009 when he hit 293, there was so much time left in that test match that Sehwag could have even hit 500-600 by himself if he batted that long

Among current players, I can see Virat Kohli, Hashim Amla & David Warner capable of breaking this record
 
amit said:
Sehwag came close to breaking it in 2009 when he hit 293, there was so much time left in that test match that Sehwag could have even hit 500-600 by himself if he batted that long

Among current players, I can see Virat Kohli, Hashim Amla & David Warner capable of breaking this record
Click to expand...

Kohli hasn't even got a double century in domestic against Indian trundlers and you expect him to break it :facepalm:
 
It takes very unique circumstances to break the record. If tests were timeless I'm sure quite a few would have broken it.

Against most opposition, 400 won't win you a game. Unless of course it is scored in less than 2 and a half days.
 
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