Over 100 militants killed in nationwide security crackdown following Sehwan blast

[Syed1]

KARACHI / PESHAWAR: Security forces launched on Friday a nationwide crackdown on after a bomb ripped through Lal Shahbaz Qalandar’s shrine, killing over 100 militants across the country.

“Over 100 terrorists killed besides sizeable arrests during the last 24 hours,” the Inter-Services Public Relations said in a statement.


“Both the federal and provincial law enforcement authorities and police started a crackdown across the country before dawn, and scores of suspects have been arrested from different cities,” a government official speaking on condition of anonymity said. He said the sweeping operation will continue for the coming days.

The Islamic State group (IS) claimed the attack, which came after a series of bloody extremist assaults this week, in the town of Sehwan in Sindh.


The Sindh provincial government announced three days of mourning as Pakistanis vented their grief and fury on social media, bemoaning the lack of medical facilities to help the wounded, with the nearest main hospital some 130 kilometres from the shrine.

Pakistan has seen a dramatic improvement in security in the past two years, but there have been multiple attacks this week. The assaults underscore Pakistan’s struggle to stamp out extremism, which was stepped up after the country’s deadliest ever attack, a TTP assault on Army Public School in Peshawar in 2014 which left more than 150 people dead – mostly children.


Karachi

Sindh Rangers claimed to have killed 18 terrorists overnight in different areas of Karachi.

Seven terrorists were killed in a shootout with Rangers after they attacked a convoy of the paramilitary troops on the Super Highway near Kathor, Sindh. A convoy of Rangers was returning from Sehwan after taking part in rescue operations. A Rangers spokesperson said a soldier was injured in the exchange of fire.

Eleven more terrorists, Rangers said, were killed in a raid carried out in Manghopir area of Karachi. “Arms and ammunition was also seized during the operation,” the Rangers spokesperson added. The Rangers said all suspects were affiliated with a banned organisation.


Peshawar

In Peshawar, three terrorists were killed in an intelligence-based operation. “Police and security forces received information about the presence of terrorists in the area so they launched an operation early morning,” a police official told The Express Tribune.

“The terrorists tried to flee in a car but they were intercepted and three of them were killed in the exchange of fire. Search for their accomplices is underway.”



Pakistan asks Afghanistan to handover 76 terrorists immediately

High alert in Rawalpindi: ISPR

Search and combing operations were also initiated in Rawalpindi, Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said.

“Security forces and intelligence outfits have been instructed to further intensify combing and targeted operations with the aim to eliminate terrorists and sleepers cells,” the military’s media wing said in a statement.

Meanwhile, Rawalpindi corps commander chaired meeting a high-level security meeting to review the response mechanism to deal with terror threats.

Landi Kotal

Security forces and Pakistan Air Force (PAF) jets pounded militant hideouts in Lwi Shalman area of Khyber Agency near the Pak-Afghan border, reportedly killing six militants.

Fearless devotees vow to hold dhamaal at Lal Shahbaz Qalandar tonight

Air strikes also destroyed terror facilities, a security source told The Express Tribune.

Meanwhile, political administration directed the locals to evacuate their houses near border areas due to the sensitive security atmosphere.

Hangu and Orakzai agency

Security forces also killed six militants in Toor Warai area of Hangu district, recovering suicide vests and other weapons from militants’ custody.

In another encounter, four suspects belonging to banned outfits were killed.

North Waziristan

The Pak-Afghan border in Torkham remained closed on Friday as political administration announced a halt in the continuing repatriation of Afghan refugees from North Waziristan Agency until further notice.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1329717/rangers-kill-18-terrorists-karachi-sehwan-blast/

 

[Syed1]

We are coming for you vermins

 

[Syed1]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">IBOs and combining ops across the country including Punjab. Over 100 Ts killed besides sizeable apprehensions during last 24 hours. <a href="https://t.co/hVrzRFTSrr">pic.twitter.com/hVrzRFTSrr</a></p>— Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor (@OfficialDGISPR) <a href="https://twitter.com/OfficialDGISPR/status/832590592291041280">February 17, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Pure Evil]

A 100 dead already?? Why kill them after the blast, why not before? I am sure they had the same mechanism to identify these vermin before the attacks took place. They could have done it sooner, rather wait for the situation to become untenable.

 

[troodon]

A 100 dead already?? Why kill them after the blast, why not before? I am sure they had the same mechanism to identify these vermin before the attacks took place. They could have done it sooner, rather wait for the situation to become untenable.

Pak Govt soft stance probably.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

A 100 dead already?? Why kill them after the blast, why not before? I am sure they had the same mechanism to identify these vermin before the attacks took place. They could have done it sooner, rather wait for the situation to become untenable.

Good question.

 

[WebGuru]

We are coming for you vermins

Situation after RS retirement (check where bajwa is standing)

 

[WebGuru]

Pak Govt soft stance probably.

Good question.

Currently our champions of democracy are fighting over military courts extension because for them military courts are more danger thn terrorism and they want same old TTF court system for these terrorists without changing any law to make it quick and better.

 

[Pure Evil]

Currently our champions of democracy are fighting over military courts extension because for them military courts are more danger thn terrorism and they want same old TTF court system for these terrorists without changing any law to make it quick and better.

And yet they could ignore these champions and courts now, but not before the blast?

 

[Major]

For gods sake lock the torkham border, thats where these came from.

 

[rahulrulezz]

Keep up the great job guys. Kill each of them.

 

[Syed1]

For gods sake lock the torkham border, thats where these came from.

All border crossings with Afghanistan have been completely sealed since last night.


I don't know about right now, but last night there was shoot on sight order for anyone trying to cross border.

 

[Syed1]

Situation after RS retirement (check where bajwa is standing)

The reason Bajwa was selected was because he was compliant to the Badsha

 

[Mamoon]

The federal govt. has absolutely no authority on anti-terrorism policies. The fact that these militants were roaming around scot-free before the latest series of attacks is nothing but the incompetence of the Army, the institute that has done more damage to the country than Nawaz Sharif and Zardari combined.

Pakistan Army is very capable, and ISI is extremely strong, but we cannot deny that they have their own agendas. Unfortunately the public has a very romanticized perception of the Army and will be happy to delegate the blame to the federal govt.

If the GHQ wanted to break the back of the militants in the country, they would have managed to do so already. This latest series of attacks is a massive blow. All the perception that the Army has successfully operated against the militants after the APS Attack has been flushed down the toilet. We are back to square one.

 

[Lonewarrior]

A 100 dead already?? Why kill them after the blast, why not before? I am sure they had the same mechanism to identify these vermin before the attacks took place. They could have done it sooner, rather wait for the situation to become untenable.

Pak Govt soft stance probably.

Good question.

And yet they could ignore these champions and courts now, but not before the blast?

becoz of the operation on the collaborators and based thre info , 100 militants gt killed.

 

[Lonewarrior]

looks like everyone is bashing on the army but not the govt.

 

[Major]

All border crossings with Afghanistan have been completely sealed since last night.


I don't know about right now, but last night there was shoot on sight order for anyone trying to cross border.

It should had never been opened in the first place.

The lahore culprit was caught and was questioned which were posted on a video. Very chilling details. A truck driver took 2 lakh for transporting the jackets.

Pakistan do what trump did with muslims. Simply ban the afghanis from entering, but they arnt gonna listen

 

[Syed1]

The federal govt. has absolutely no authority on anti-terrorism policies. The fact that these militants were roaming around scot-free before the latest series of attacks is nothing but the incompetence of the Army, the institute that has done more damage to the country than Nawaz Sharif and Zardari combined.

Pakistan Army is very capable, and ISI is extremely strong, but we cannot deny that they have their own agendas. Unfortunately the public has a very romanticized perception of the Army and will be happy to delegate the blame to the federal govt.

If the GHQ wanted to break the back of the militants in the country, they would have managed to do so already. This latest series of attacks is a massive blow. All the perception that the Army has successfully operated against the militants after the APS Attack has been flushed down the toilet. We are back to square one.

Lol weren't you just a couple of days back crediting "his excellency Nawaz Sharif" for the improved security situation in the country and launching the Operation Zarb-e-Azab, but now that things have gone haywire then all the blame lies with the army.


So if things are going good then it is the government that is doing well and if the things are going bad then it is the army's ill-performance.


Don't expect logic from Noora supporters.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pak Govt soft stance probably.

Which then begs the question why would the militants invite a hard stance by bombing in Pakistan if the Army is being soft on them? I realise my logic is probably way off the radar that these people think but it seems a pretty stupid course of action.

 

[DW44]

The federal govt. has absolutely no authority on anti-terrorism policies. The fact that these militants were roaming around scot-free before the latest series of attacks is nothing but the incompetence of the Army, the institute that has done more damage to the country than Nawaz Sharif and Zardari combined.

Plagiarism? I could have sworn I wrote that exact paragraph almost word for word in at least two threads. Jokes aside, this is correct. Keep selling the Afghanistan manjan and making ridiculous claims like "yeah, we're coming for you" like it's some Bollywood movie like Phantom 2 or Agent Vinod 2 where testosterone fueled statements like that will be followed up by anything substantive. What a joke.

Pakistan Army is very capable, and ISI is extremely strong, but we cannot deny that they have their own agendas. Unfortunately the public has a very romanticized perception of the Army and will be happy to delegate the blame to the federal govt.

Again, correct. I am now at the point where I question both the intelligence and integrity of anyone who still stands by the army's shenanigans and gobbles up their rubbish wholesale. If you're going to use these tragedies as point scoring opportunities for your political parties and stand by those who are ultimately responsible, you might as well shut it and not insult those who have actually suffered.

If the GHQ wanted to break the back of the militants in the country, they would have managed to do so already. This latest series of attacks is a massive blow. All the perception that the Army has successfully operated against the militants after the APS Attack has been flushed down the toilet. We are back to square one.

But apparently bloggers are more of a threat so breaking their back took priority. It's no sweat tracing down a guy living in the Netherlands and making him disappear but woe betide anyone who dares ask why ASWJ is getting the VIP treatment from one and two star generals. Absolute joke is what this whole situation is and ten years from now we'll still have these blasts going off while the internet warriors shout slogans about how they're coming to get the.

 

[Syed1]

Which then begs the question why would the militants invite a hard stance by bombing in Pakistan if the Army is being soft on them? I realise my logic is probably way off the radar that these people think but it seems a pretty stupid course of action.

So let me get this straight.

Pakistan Army funds and safeguards these terrorist organizations.


These same terrorist organizations go crazy and start bombing Pakistan knowing fully well that the PA will come after them and their funding/safety net will be gone, but they still attack Pakistan.


Hmmmmm sound logic.

 

[Markhor]

So now they carry out the crackdown. Shame over 80 people have had to die this week before the security agencies spring into action.

ISPR propaganda needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, for all this talk of breaking the back of terrorism we still see their ability to strike in major cities.

And not a glove will be laid on some of the biggest sectarian killers in the land - LEJ/ASWJ/SSP et al.

 

[Mian]

For gods sake lock the torkham border, thats where these came from.

All border crossings with Afghanistan have been completely sealed since last night.


I don't know about right now, but last night there was shoot on sight order for anyone trying to cross border.

Anyone who thinks Pakistan can seal a 2200 km long border with Afghanistan completely is living in lala land for sure. Not enough money to build wall and not enough foot soldiers to deploy there.

 

[Syed1]

Anyone who thinks Pakistan can seal a 2200 km long border with Afghanistan completely is living in lala land for sure. Not enough money to build wall and not enough foot soldiers to deploy there.

True.. but what can be done is to seal the "official" border crossings atleast. The Lahore and Peshawar attackers both came through official border crossings.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] Lol, probably missed your post. Completely agree on all accounts.
[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] that was a troll comment, The Sher doesn't have anything to do with anti-terrorism.

 

[Mian]

If bajwa is sincere with this nation he should launch the operation in Punjab and interior sindh no more excuses and should play on front foot if these political jokers again try to show their face.

 

[Zak_Fan]

They found 100 militants in less than a day. Gives you an idea about the scale of this problem, it also tells you how much is possible if you have genuine motivation to act against terror. Let's hope Pak agencies keep up this work.

 

[Mamoon]

Which then begs the question why would the militants invite a hard stance by bombing in Pakistan if the Army is being soft on them? I realise my logic is probably way off the radar that these people think but it seems a pretty stupid course of action.

So let me get this straight.

Pakistan Army funds and safeguards these terrorist organizations.


These same terrorist organizations go crazy and start bombing Pakistan knowing fully well that the PA will come after them and their funding/safety net will be gone, but they still attack Pakistan.


Hmmmmm sound logic.

The answer to this is a conspiracy, and it is not a very good idea to mention it here. Hopefully you'll figure it out on your own.

 

[yasir]

Pakistan Army has never divorce the idea of terrorist as weapon, they still maintain good and bad terrorist, sooner or later good terrorist become bad, investing in culture of terrorist(aka fundamental religious extremist) is a bad investment, at many level, it makes your culture backward and ill tolerant, than what exactly you are fighting?? - Your whole game is spread the extremist culture in the ranks of enemy and than blow them up, really?? - These bombs are blowing mostly in-house and they are polluting your own culture way more than enemy's, after 70 years Pakistanis still don't get it

Its sort of like picking between coal, oil and gas...Picking any one of them is not an achievement, they are all bad, you got to rebuild on a completely different energy platform...Same way focusing on religion as weapon is really TTF(Tried and Tested Failure) policy, and a backward, you go nowhere by keeping that as major investment, I would not keep it as minor investment forget about major and strategic, you will loose 10 out of 10 times

 

[Mamoon]

Lol weren't you just a couple of days back crediting "his excellency Nawaz Sharif" for the improved security situation in the country and launching the Operation Zarb-e-Azab, but now that things have gone haywire then all the blame lies with the army.


So if things are going good then it is the government that is doing well and if the things are going bad then it is the army's ill-performance.


Don't expect logic from Noora supporters.

In all seriousness, what I meant was that because of the foreign investment in Nawaz's reign, there has been a positive outlook on Pakistan, especially internally. People in general have been more upbeat and positive about the future of Pakistan than they have been at any point in a long time. The improvement in security was obviously down to the Army operation in response to the APS massacre.

 

[faraz39]

What's the difference between the claims here and the ones by US after drone strikes? Both say terrorists were killed but that usually includes many (if not all) civilian casualties.

I understand the need for knee jerk reactions and need for blood but killing more people indiscriminately will just create more terrorists. I'm sure some will respond with "we need to trust army/etc." but that's exactly what the right wingers in US say after every drone strike.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That said, I would argue that the term liberal is being misused here. Liberals as we used to understand them would be fairly easy going people, those who are on these forums are as much involved in an ideological war as the militant Islamics. They might not openly cheer the bombs when dropped from their favoured side, but they don't mind a bit of collateral damage.

 

[PakLFC]

Permanently block the Afghan border crossings and get rid off all Afghans in Pakistan. It should not take bomb blasts for the fauj to take such action.

 

[Saeed]

We are coming for you vermins

Coming for them in Pakistan? Bit contradictory to make a whole drama about Afghanistan one day and next day we are coming for you in Pakistan. I thought they were in Afghanistan and we immediately needed to deal with them. Question is how were security forces able to find and kill hundreds of terrorists right after the attacks? If they knew who and where they were, why weren't they dealing with them already? Hopefully no innocent were killed to satisfy the awaam.

 

[Ankit007]

So everyone was in Pakistan. If they had killed them before, many lives would have saved. But its Okay. Der aaye durust aaye I hope they dont change this stance against terrorism now.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

So everyone was in Pakistan. If they had killed them before, many lives would have saved. But its Okay. Der aaye durust aaye I hope they dont change this stance against terrorism now.

Pak army has always been against terrorism.

Just not all terrorism.

 

[Ankit007]

They found 100 militants in less than a day. Gives you an idea about the scale of this problem, it also tells you how much is possible if you have genuine motivation to act against terror. Let's hope Pak agencies keep up this work.

It also tells you that they already have information about terrorists but they didnt do much. Perhaps we all know why. But as you said good thing is they can now take motivation from this and work positively against terrorism.

 

[Ankit007]

Pak army has always been against terrorism.

Just not all terrorism.

yes. Thats what i wanted to mean

 

[troodon]

Coming for them in Pakistan? Bit contradictory to make a whole drama about Afghanistan one day and next day we are coming for you in Pakistan. I thought they were in Afghanistan and we immediately needed to deal with them. Question is how were security forces able to find and kill hundreds of terrorists right after the attacks? If they knew who and where they were, why weren't they dealing with them already? Hopefully no innocent were killed to satisfy the awaam.

Its like the Army and ISI always knew who these people were and where they live and where they eat.

If they know so much, they should have finished them long ago. Something is fishy here.

 

[Syed1]

Its like the Army and ISI always knew who these people were and where they live and where they eat.

If they know so much, they should have finished them long ago. Something is fishy here.

If only you lot had shown this much need to find out the truth during the "surgical strike" saga. At that point words of your armed forces were enough for all of you to go into celebration.

 

[troodon]

If only you lot had shown this much need to find out the truth during the "surgical strike" saga. At that point words of your armed forces were enough for all of you to go into celebration.

I still have my doubts about the Surgical strikes theory. Not 100% convinced. Either way, the so called militant hideouts across the border got bombed.

 

[Syed1]

I still have my doubts about the Surgical strikes theory. Not 100% convinced. Either way, the so called militant hideouts across the border got bombed.

Same way these 100 militants were found and killed after the blasts and also the air strikes inside Afghanistan took place. I'm not 100% sure but I believe them.



#Two can play at this game

 

[troodon]

Same way these 100 militants were found and killed after the blasts and also the air strikes inside Afghanistan took place. I'm not 100% sure but I believe them.



#Two can play at this game

Glad that you don't trust your army theory too 100%

Just FYI, Indian army knows where the militant hideouts are across the border. They cannot go and bomb them when ever they wish. Its not Indian territory.

In Pak's case, the militants were in your territory and Pak army seems to knows it and still did not do anything. Hence my question.

 

[Syed1]

Glad that you don't trust your army theory too 100%

Just FYI, Indian army knows where the militant hideouts are across the border. They cannot go and bomb them when ever they wish. Its not Indian territory.

In Pak's case, the militants were in your territory and Pak army seems to knows it and still did not do anything. Hence my question.

What if I tell you that these folks were all not caught from one or two places. Many terrorists were also captured and they were interrogated to reveal more locations.

 

[sjahmed23]

This seems wrong in so many levels. They probably killed 100 innocents who probably will create more terrorists and create more sympathy for action against the government and ect... This same thing happens in countries like Nigeria where the military is involved in a never ending battle with the militants.

 

[dhump]

I dont know if Pakistanis are still buying this manjan, but if you knew of 100 terrorists why were you waiting?? secondly today in the news paper I read Moulana Aziz saying ISIS and we got same goals while sitting in Islamabad and saying soon ISIS will rule the world and that is why we always wish them good luck...and if I am captured it will be problematic for Government.

So please pak army stop sleeping with terrorist and stop making fool of an alredy fool nation.

 

[Zak_Fan]

It also tells you that they already have information about terrorists but they didnt do much. Perhaps we all know why. But as you said good thing is they can now take motivation from this and work positively against terrorism.

True. But better late than never, hopefully such tragedies will be avoided in the future.

 

[saeedhk]

View attachment 72777I dont know if Pakistanis are still buying this manjan, but if you knew of 100 terrorists why were you waiting?? secondly today in the news paper I read Moulana Aziz saying ISIS and we got same goals while sitting in Islamabad and saying soon ISIS will rule the world and that is why we always wish them good luck...and if I am captured it will be problematic for Government.

So please pak army stop sleeping with terrorist and stop making fool of an alredy fool nation.

Strangely, Lal Masjid strongly condemned the TTP after the Lahore blast and said they are working against Islam and that they are killing innocent citizens.

The efficiency and the seriousness of the NAP can be gauged by the fact that a cleric sitting in the capital is openly spreading hate and praising terror outfits.

 

[DW44]

Strangely, Lal Masjid strongly condemned the TTP after the Lahore blast and said they are working against Islam and that they are killing innocent citizens.

The efficiency and the seriousness of the NAP can be gauged by the fact that a cleric sitting in the capital is openly spreading hate and praising terror outfits.

What a lot of people disregard is that terrorism and terrorist organizations in Pakistan are not a monolithic entity working on a singular agenda. There are dozens of organizations working on different agendas, some of whom are tolerated, others supported and the rest are targeted by various state institutions. Abdul Aziz, for instance, is anti army yet no one touches him because he has Saudi backing. Ttp, another anti army organization gets the treatment such an organization should get yet LeJ, the most prolific murderers of Pakistanis after TTP is supported by all political parties AND the army. Then you have more complex cases like IS which is not welcome in Pakistan yet they're based mostly in areas of Afghanistan where LeT, a Pakistani state sponsored organization has a big presence so these organizations are hardly puppets, just beneficiariea of very short sighted policies.

The national action plan is a joke in that it's less of a plan and more of a vague wish list which doesn't go nearly far enough to be a real threat to terrorism even if properly implemented.

 

[Bewal Express]

A 100 dead already?? Why kill them after the blast, why not before? I am sure they had the same mechanism to identify these vermin before the attacks took place. They could have done it sooner, rather wait for the situation to become untenable.

I was thinking the same.

 

[Bewal Express]

I still have my doubts about the Surgical strikes theory. Not 100% convinced. Either way, the so called militant hideouts across the border got bombed.

One the Indians said evidence would be released soon back in October. We are still waiting.

 

[saeedhk]

What a lot of people disregard is that terrorism and terrorist organizations in Pakistan are not a monolithic entity working on a singular agenda. There are dozens of organizations working on different agendas, some of whom are tolerated, others supported and the rest are targeted by various state institutions. Abdul Aziz, for instance, is anti army yet no one touches him because he has Saudi backing. Ttp, another anti army organization gets the treatment such an organization should get yet LeJ, the most prolific murderers of Pakistanis after TTP is supported by all political parties AND the army. Then you have more complex cases like IS which is not welcome in Pakistan yet they're based mostly in areas of Afghanistan where LeT, a Pakistani state sponsored organization has a big presence so these organizations are hardly puppets, just beneficiariea of very short sighted policies.

The national action plan is a joke in that it's less of a plan and more of a vague wish list which doesn't go nearly far enough to be a real threat to terrorism even if properly implemented.

Yes. Remember how the Saudis got Azizi K out of troubles after the Jibran-led protests. The extent of Saudi influence in Pakistan is truly nauseating.

If only those recently arrested bloggers had Saudi backing, things have been different.

 

[DW44]

It seems the BBC is now plagiarizing my ideas too:

Pakistan's bloody week: Who is really to blame?
As Pakistan picks up the pieces from Thursday evening's devastating bomb attack at the 800-year-old shrine of Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, the country's managers are looking for scapegoats abroad.

And the military has openly taken charge of the proceedings, relegating pretentions of political propriety to the background.

Soon after the bombing, army chief General Qamar Javed Bajwa vowed that "each drop of [the] nation's blood shall be avenged, and avenged immediately".

There would be "no more restraint for anyone", he said.

The object of his remark was clear an hour later when the military announced that Pakistan had closed its border with Afghanistan to all traffic, including pedestrians.

On Friday morning, Afghan embassy officials were summoned to the army's headquarters in Rawalpindi. They were handed a list of 76 "terrorists" said to be hiding in their country, with the demand that they be arrested and handed over to Pakistan, the military says.

The fiery reaction came after a series of deadly militant attacks in five days from Sunday killed more than 100 people across Pakistan, including civilians, the police and soldiers.

This is the worst spell of violence since 2014, when Pakistan launched an operation to eliminate militant sanctuaries in its north-western tribal region.

Violence decreased considerably as a result, with Pakistani leaders claiming the militants had been defeated. But this week, that sense of security has been blown away.

The latest surge in attacks comes amid reports of the reunification of some powerful factions of the Pakistani Taliban. Some of them have links with the Afghanistan-Pakistan chapter of the so-called Islamic State, which itself emerged from a former faction of the Pakistani Taliban.

Most of these groups have hideouts in border areas of Afghanistan, where they relocated after Pakistan launched its anti-militant operations. Pakistan now accuses Afghanistan of tolerating these sanctuaries. It also blames India for funding these groups.

Officials say India and Afghanistan want to hurt Pakistan economically and undermine China's plans to build a multi-billion dollar "economic corridor" through the country.

But many in Pakistan and elsewhere don't buy that argument. They believe that militancy in Pakistan is actually tied to the country's own covert wars that sustain the economy of its security establishment.

In Kashmir, for example, the BBC has seen militants living and operating out of camps located close to army deployments. Each camp is placed under the charge of an official from what locals describe as the "launching wing" of the intelligence service.

In Balochistan, which has been under de-facto military control for nearly a decade, state agencies have allegedly been promoting Islamist militants to counter an armed separatist insurgency by secular ethnic Baloch activists.(1)

Last year the regional police compiled a report on militant sanctuaries across several parts of Balochistan, but an operation recommended by the police in those areas was never launched.

Likewise, the world knows about the safe havens which the Afghan Taliban continue to enjoy in the Quetta region and elsewhere in Balochistan province, as well as in some parts of the tribal region in the north-west, from where they continue to launch raids inside Afghanistan.

Many observers believe that the Pakistani military uses militant proxies to advance its wars in Afghanistan and Kashmir, and takes advantage of the domestic security situation to control political decision making.(2)

This is important, they say, if the military is to sustain a vast business, industrial and real estate empire which they believe enjoys unfair competitive advantages, state patronage and tax holidays.(3)

The military establishment rejects such arguments.

But with such a cocktail of militant networks in the border region, many find it hard to buy the Pakistani line that India and Afghanistan are to blame.

All militants on the ground - from disputed Kashmir to Quetta and Afghanistan - come from the same stock. They are the second-generation standard bearers of an armed Islamist movement that was formed on Pakistani soil during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1980s.

They may have regional affiliations or partisan loyalties, but all have been raised under the influence of Wahhabi Islam and its various ideological offshoots, imported here by Arab warriors who came to help liberate Afghanistan.

As such, they are capable of forming complex group-alliances and cross-border linkages with each other. And they are all united in considering Shia Muslims and Sunni adherents of native Sufi Islam as misguided and heretical.

This may also partly answer the riddle as to how these groups manage to survive and operate even though they do not command popular support in any part of Afghanistan or Pakistan.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39003673

(1) This is why Lashkar e Jhangvi gets a free hand. Do the army's dirty work against Baloch separatists, get a free pass on killing whoever you want.
(2) This should be clear to anyone with more than three functioning braincells.
(3) For all the talk of politicians using their power for personal financial gains, the financial gains the army makes from using it's position of power make the politicians look like minnows by comparison which is what makes all these accountability demanding army supporters so hypocritical.

The last two paragraphs are important because contrary to the rubbish being fed to us, most of these organizations are interlinked despite them enjoying very different levels of support(or opposition) from the military. The civilians can obviously only support those organizations that are already copacetic with the military which is why N League or PTI can form an alliance with ASWJ but they have to make the mother of all U-Turns on their TTP policy when the military puts its foot down.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But many in Pakistan and elsewhere don't buy that argument. They believe that militancy in Pakistan is actually tied to the country's own covert wars that sustain the economy of its security establishment.

- See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...owing-Sehwan-blast/page2#sthash.wYEam5OZ.dpuf

The BBC article is just stating that there are people in Pakistan like you who believe that the army is the guiding hand. It may well be the case, but the if as you say "This is why Lashkar e Jhangvi gets a free hand. Do the army's dirty work against Baloch separatists, get a free pass on killing whoever you want." then by definition, the army has no problem with the jihadis setting off bombs in various cities in Pakistan.

It seems a strange way for the terrorist groups to operate in unison with the army, but this is your premise and I guess you must have good reason to believe it to be true. In any case, it will certainly delight anti-Islamic factions in Pakistan and geopolitical enemies on the border, but there you have it. Seems like everyone is on the same page from a political viewpoint, that's at least one saving grace. Shame about the collateral damage but hey ho.

 

[DW44]

The BBC article is just stating that there are people in Pakistan like you who believe that the army is the guiding hand. It may well be the case, but the if as you say "This is why Lashkar e Jhangvi gets a free hand. Do the army's dirty work against Baloch separatists, get a free pass on killing whoever you want." then by definition, the army has no problem with the jihadis setting off bombs in various cities in Pakistan.

Surely that should not be a point of contention by now, if ASWJ leadership, who are Lashkar e Jhangvi's political wing, are openly being wined and dined by one and two star generals, it's clear they don't care about the bombs per se but who's setting them off, which is evident by the stark difference between how TTP and LeJ are treated. There's no smoke without fire and yes, there are people like me who believe the army has blood on their hands with good reason. If the implication here is that it's too far fetched for the army to let ordinary people be killed for their own gain, I'm sure you have a good explanation for Ojhri camp or their intel agencies importing heroin into Pakistan and using it as a captive market to peddle their wares. We have 7 million heroin addicts today, the second or third highest figure in the world. When you account for the families of those addicts, that's 25-30 million lives ruined or about one in 8 Pakistani citizens.

It seems a strange way for the terrorist groups to operate in unison with the army, but this is your premise and I guess you must have good reason to believe it to be true. In any case, it will certainly delight anti-Islamic factions in Pakistan and geopolitical enemies on the border, but there you have it. Seems like everyone is on the same page from a political viewpoint, that's at least one saving grace. Shame about the collateral damage but hey ho.

Why is it so strange, it's textbook you scratch my back I scratch yours. I don't think it's a coincidence that TTP are being targeted while LeJ and LeT(who are known to collude with and offer safe haven to the IS factions in Afghanistan who target Pakistan) are not when LeJ is the only terrorist organization in the country besides TTP which has a four digit or higher body count. Support for LeJ isn't even a hidden phenomenon or a conspiracy theory considering the army isn't exactly shy about letting themselves be photographed with their leaders. I'm not aware of any anti Islamic factions in Pakistan because, while you may not be familiar with the dynamics of Pakistani society, those who are would know that such a thing would not survive for even a day and they wouldn't even have to be outed, an accusation would suffice.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Surely that should not be a point of contention by now, if ASWJ leadership, who are Lashkar e Jhangvi's political wing, are openly being wined and dined by one and two star generals, it's clear they don't care about the bombs per se but who's setting them off, which is evident by the stark difference between how TTP and LeJ are treated. There's no smoke without fire and yes, there are people like me who believe the army has blood on their hands with good reason. If the implication here is that it's too far fetched for the army to let ordinary people be killed for their own gain, I'm sure you have a good explanation for Ojhri camp or their intel agencies importing heroin into Pakistan and using it as a captive market to peddle their wares. We have 7 million heroin addicts today, the second or third highest figure in the world. When you account for the families of those addicts, that's 25-30 million lives ruined or about one in 8 Pakistani citizens.


Why is it so strange, it's textbook you scratch my back I scratch yours. I don't think it's a coincidence that TTP are being targeted while LeJ and LeT(who are known to collude with and offer safe haven to the IS factions in Afghanistan who target Pakistan) are not when LeJ is the only terrorist organization in the country besides TTP which has a four digit or higher body count. Support for LeJ isn't even a hidden phenomenon or a conspiracy theory considering the army isn't exactly shy about letting themselves be photographed with their leaders. I'm not aware of any anti Islamic factions in Pakistan because, while you may not be familiar with the dynamics of Pakistani society, those who are would know that such a thing would not survive for even a day and they wouldn't even have to be outed, an accusation would suffice.

Please provide evidence of Pakistan army spreading drugs in Pakistan..... not hearsay, but evidence.

 

[DW44]

Please provide evidence of Pakistan army spreading drugs in Pakistan..... not hearsay, but evidence.

If you're looking for evidence that's admissible in a court of law, you're barking up the wrong tree unless you think the army shares that evidence willy nilly with civilians but by that token, I doubt you can provide evidence of Nawaz Sharif's many misdeeds that would hold up to the level of scrutiny that the evidence you're demanding of me would. The best you get are news reports and obscure academic papers. Off course you can always question their credibility but then I can question yours so make of that what you will. This is an excerpt from a Dawn article dating back to 2001 that offers some background:

The Mujahideen ordered farmers to plant opium as a “revolutionary tax”. The ISI set up hundreds of heroin laboratories across Afghanistan. Within two years of the CIA’s arrival, the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderland had become the biggest producer of heroin in the world, and the single biggest source of the heroin on American streets. The annual profits, said to be between $100bn and $200bn, were ploughed back into training and arming militants.
....
Between 1979 and 1985, the number of heroin addicts grew from zero to one-and-a-half million.
....

http://www.dawn.com/news/1062309

Since the United States and Pakistan started to fund the Afghan rebels after 1980, much of the war before that was funded by the rebels themselves. Heroin production and smuggling was one of the main ways used by these rebels (called Mujahideen), to acquire weapons to fight Afghan troops and their Soviet backers. Many of the new heroin producers and smugglers started to introduce heroin in Pakistan as well.Interestingly, heroin addiction remained minimal in parts of Afghanistan that were controlled by the Soviet forces.

No points for guessing who was facilitating the "mujahideen", and yes, CIA is as dirty as ISI, before someone comes up with the but..but.. but CIA was doing it too argument. Besides, their job is to secure America's interests, not ours, that's our military's job and between the two of them, only one used their own country as a captive market.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

If you're looking for evidence that's admissible in a court of law, you're barking up the wrong tree unless you think the army shares that evidence willy nilly with civilians but by that token, I doubt you can provide evidence of Nawaz Sharif's many misdeeds that would hold up to the level of scrutiny that the evidence you're demanding of me would. The best you get are news reports and obscure academic papers. Off course you can always question their credibility but then I can question yours so make of that what you will. This is an excerpt from a Dawn article dating back to 2001 that offers some background:


http://www.dawn.com/news/1062309


No points for guessing who was facilitating the "mujahideen", and yes, CIA is as dirty as ISI, before someone comes up with the but..but.. but CIA was doing it too argument. Besides, their job is to secure America's interests, not ours, that's our military's job and between the two of them, only one used their own country as a captive market.

So an opinion piece in dawn is evidence? It's called opinion piece for a reason..... that too from Arundhati Roy.... I had to rub my eyes to and see again just make sure that it was actually Arundhati Roy's name there.

So you seek out obscure opinion pieces to validate your own fantastical accounts and present them as facts.

 

[DW44]

So an opinion piece in dawn is evidence? It's called opinion piece for a reason..... that too from Arundhati Roy.... I had to rub my eyes to and see again just make sure that it was actually Arundhati Roy's name there.

So you seek out obscure opinion pieces to validate your own fantastical accounts and present them as facts.

Wait, I must have missed it when one or both of Nadeem Paracha and Professor Khalid Mehmud changed their name to Arundhati Roy because the two pieces referenced are by Mehmud and Paracha respectively. Secondly, that's as good as it gets here, unfortunately. We're not privileged to live in an open society with functioning RTI laws and accountable institutions so one's choice is limited to twiddling your thumbs and buying the official narrative or taking a trusted source's word and weigh it against the known knowns, as Donald Rumsfeld put it, especially when you know that anyone making such a claim is doing so at great personal risk.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Wait, I must have missed it when one or both of Nadeem Paracha and Professor Khalid Mehmud changed their name to Arundhati Roy because the two pieces referenced are by Mehmud and Paracha respectively. Secondly, that's as good as it gets here, unfortunately. We're not privileged to live in an open society with functioning RTI laws and accountable institutions so one's choice is limited to twiddling your thumbs and buying the official narrative or taking a trusted source's word and weigh it against the known knowns, as Donald Rumsfeld put it, especially when you know that anyone making such a claim is doing so at great personal risk.

The article :
Terrorism is the symptom, not the disease: The algebra of infinite justice-II

Is written by Arundhati Roy. Are you talking about this piece right?

 

[DW44]

The article :
Terrorism is the symptom, not the disease: The algebra of infinite justice-II

Is written by Arundhati Roy. Are you talking about this piece right?

No.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

khalid mahmud wrote the piece ... vajpayee's mission to Moscow. From my quick glance on the fone it's not mentioned anything about drugs and Pakistan army.

But Arundhati Roy's article has.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

No.

I cannot see the article you are supposedly referring to.... paste it here

 

[DW44]

I cannot see the article you are supposedly referring to.... paste it here

My mistake, the poor formatting made it seem like the terrorism bit was an extension of Mehmud's article. Either way, Roy isn't exactly known for peddling the Indian state's position so my point stands. In any case, I noticed you have already dismissed several more credible sources on the Raheel Sharif thread because they don't fit your narrative so it's not clear what you're interested in here but its certainly not a quest for the truth.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

My mistake, the poor formatting made it seem like the terrorism bit was an extension of Mehmud's article. Either way, Roy isn't exactly known for peddling the Indian state's position so my point stands. In any case, I noticed you have already dismissed several more credible sources on the Raheel Sharif thread because they don't fit your narrative so it's not clear what you're interested in here but its certainly not a quest for the truth.

So your slanderous position is based on Arundhati Roy's opinion? Or let's say good enough for you to believe it?

And also just so it's clear [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] evidence in the other thread is:

1. I have a friend who has an uncle who was a drug dealer and he told him that army is involved...

2. Father sold a plot of land, cda guy told him the army guy bought with cash, from that he summised its drugs money

3. An Indian outlet reported that some one wrote in their personal blog that musharaf and kiyani are corrupt.

Now come on man, this is not evidence but just hearsay or one can even say just outright lies to fit a story. Anyone can make this stuff up when you don't have to provide proof.

You are peddling a line that has no proof whatsoever. If there was, the Indians would be using it to malign the army...

 

[DW44]

So your slanderous position is based on Arundhati Roy's opinion? Or let's say good enough for you to believe it?

And also just so it's clear [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION] evidence in the other thread is:

1. I have a friend who has an uncle who was a drug dealer and he told him that army is involved...

2. Father sold a plot of land, cda guy told him the army guy bought with cash, from that he summised its drugs money

3. An Indian outlet reported that some one wrote in their personal blog that musharaf and kiyani are corrupt.

Now come on man, this is not evidence but just hearsay or one can even say just outright lies to fit a story. Anyone can make this stuff up when you don't have to provide proof.

You are peddling a line that has no proof whatsoever. If there was, the Indians would be using it to malign the army...

It is not. My opinion, and opinion is the key word here, is based on a lifetime of living all over Pakistan, hearing all sides of this debate on the TV, in the drawing rooms, schools and places of work, reading hundreds, if not thousands, of news stories, articles, papers and books on the subject over the course of decades, and spending a good chunk of my life in the military, my family having a military background. In short, it is an opinion formed over a lifetime and has undergone a great deal of evolution, my views on the subject, say, five years ago being closer to yours now than mine so no, it is not based on Arundati Roy's article. The article was just something I could look up on short notice because looking up a lifetime's worth of reading material and posting it here is not exactly practical. The issue here is which sources you trust and which one's I don't which accounts for the differences in our opinion. Evidence is not the issue here because when you say evidence on a forum, newspaper articles, opinion pieces or, at best, obscure academic papers is all you get, it's simply which way you lean that determines who you deem credible or not.

I should also make it clear that the post you're referring to has no influence on mine and whatever claims he has made are his to defend, I can not comment on his life experiences so that's between you and him.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

It is not. My opinion, and opinion is the key word here, is based on a lifetime of living all over Pakistan, hearing all sides of this debate on the TV, in the drawing rooms, schools and places of work, reading hundreds, if not thousands, of news stories, articles, papers and books on the subject over the course of decades, and spending a good chunk of my life in the military, my family having a military background. In short, it is an opinion formed over a lifetime and has undergone a great deal of evolution, my views on the subject, say, five years ago being closer to yours now than mine so no, it is not based on Arundati Roy's article. The article was just something I could look up on short notice because looking up a lifetime's worth of reading material and posting it here is not exactly practical. The issue here is which sources you trust and which one's I don't which accounts for the differences in our opinion. Evidence is not the issue here because when you say evidence on a forum, newspaper articles, opinion pieces or, at best, obscure academic papers is all you get, it's simply which way you lean that determines who you deem credible or not.

I should also make it clear that the post you're referring to has no influence on mine and whatever claims he has made are his to defend, I can not comment on his life experiences so that's between you and him.

Do you realise that you are sounding like a conspiracy theorist. Your tall claims are based on your own opinion that you have formed in the recent past... it's not based on lifetime of experience because as you said 5 years ago your views were closer to mine.

What you are doing is what trump supporters do, go around looking for news to validate your beliefs... whether it's true or not matters little. The net is full of such things....

Common sense will tell you that if your allegations were true, the western media would have been all over it and the Indians would have a field day.....

You know the Americans don't believe you... but of course they are/were hand in glove spreading drugs in Pakistan with Pakistan according to you.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Surely that should not be a point of contention by now, if ASWJ leadership, who are Lashkar e Jhangvi's political wing, are openly being wined and dined by one and two star generals, it's clear they don't care about the bombs per se but who's setting them off, which is evident by the stark difference between how TTP and LeJ are treated. There's no smoke without fire and yes, there are people like me who believe the army has blood on their hands with good reason. If the implication here is that it's too far fetched for the army to let ordinary people be killed for their own gain, I'm sure you have a good explanation for Ojhri camp or their intel agencies importing heroin into Pakistan and using it as a captive market to peddle their wares. We have 7 million heroin addicts today, the second or third highest figure in the world. When you account for the families of those addicts, that's 25-30 million lives ruined or about one in 8 Pakistani citizens.


Why is it so strange, it's textbook you scratch my back I scratch yours. I don't think it's a coincidence that TTP are being targeted while LeJ and LeT(who are known to collude with and offer safe haven to the IS factions in Afghanistan who target Pakistan) are not when LeJ is the only terrorist organization in the country besides TTP which has a four digit or higher body count. Support for LeJ isn't even a hidden phenomenon or a conspiracy theory considering the army isn't exactly shy about letting themselves be photographed with their leaders. I'm not aware of any anti Islamic factions in Pakistan because, while you may not be familiar with the dynamics of Pakistani society, those who are would know that such a thing would not survive for even a day and they wouldn't even have to be outed, an accusation would suffice.

I don't have any loyalty to the Pak army like others might, I've always argued against dictatorship on the premise that at least if a democratically elected govt is corrupt then the people can vote them out. If a dictator sells out there's not much you can do about it, so in theory the Pak army leadership could well be on the payroll of the US/Russia or whoever.

What I find hard to get my head around is that the Pak army is encouraging and in bed with the terrorists and at the same time the terrorists are blowing up cities in Pakistan and making the same army look stupid. It makes no sense from any tactical POV.

 

[DW44]

I don't have any loyalty to the Pak army like others might, I've always argued against dictatorship on the premise that at least if a democratically elected govt is corrupt then the people can vote them out. If a dictator sells out there's not much you can do about it, so in theory the Pak army leadership could well be on the payroll of the US/Russia or whoever.

The issue here is the army's conduct during civilian governments, my contention being that the civilian government is at least somewhat a facade and the army still maintains supremacy over them in many critical areas, defense and foreign policy being key among them.

What I find hard to get my head around is that the Pak army is encouraging and in bed with the terrorists and at the same time the terrorists are blowing up cities in Pakistan and making the same army look stupid. It makes no sense from any tactical POV.

Well for one, it's the civilian government, not the army who usually take the blame for failures on this front(though it's the other way round when it comes to taking credit for successes) so they're not the ones who end up looking stupid. If you go through all the threads here about the recent wave of attacks, you can see for yourself the staggering disparity between the number of people blaming this on the federal government(and provincial in the case of non KPK attacks) and defending the army against any criticism, and the handful who are demanding that the army take its rightful share of the blame. It doesn't hurt either that the media is free to report the government's failures, of which there are many, but can not do the same in the army's case which means that public perception of the army is skewed heavily towards one extreme.

Secondly, you'll notice that the army affiliated organizations such as LeJ and LeT have far more public support than, say, TTP. LeJ's political wing contests and wins elections in several parts of Pakistan and have enough public support that all three mainstream parties are currently in electoral alliances with them(not sure if PPP still is but they were until not too long ago and the other two definitely still are). LeJ also selectively attacks a particular sect for the most part and in one particular part of Pakistan(Balochistan) so it doesn't get nearly as much attention or draw the kind of public ire that a TTP attack does.

TL;DR - They're not made to look stupid by such attacks at all because the overwhelming majority of the public blames the federal and provincial governments(KPK notwithstanding) for them, not the army.

 

[DW44]

Do you realise that you are sounding like a conspiracy theorist. Your tall claims are based on your own opinion that you have formed in the recent past... it's not based on lifetime of experience because as you said 5 years ago your views were closer to mine.

What you are doing is what trump supporters do, go around looking for news to validate your beliefs... whether it's true or not matters little. The net is full of such things....

Common sense will tell you that if your allegations were true, the western media would have been all over it and the Indians would have a field day.....

You know the Americans don't believe you... but of course they are/were hand in glove spreading drugs in Pakistan with Pakistan according to you.

Not at all. Five years is not recent and besides, there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to that effect which is as good as it gets here so any opinions concerning the army, favorable or otherwise, are based on "evidence" of similar quality given the opacity surrounding their activities, especially the ISI's, and the fact that most news and analysis on the subject is preapproved by ISPR. Anyhow, it's clear which way you lean on this issue, as evident by similar attacks on the credibility of anyone questioning the army across several threads, so this debate is futile. Whether or not the Americans believe me is besides the point, though I'm not conceding that they do considering I only have your word to go on, is irrelevant. What happens to the people of Pakistan does not concern them and given their own intelligence agencies' involvement in the drug trade, I doubt this is an issue they would raise too much of a hoopla over anyway.

The Trump reference is a textbook case of false equivalency considering the differences between their situation and ours. They live in a vibrant democracy with a free press, free speech to debate and question just about anything, and a healthy balance between liberal and conservative elements in society. We have none of those, and when it comes to the institution in question, concrete information is especially scarce so we make do with whatever bits and pieces find their way through the cracks but the big picture is always obscured and that's by design. This is why you will find that this debate between pro and anti army Pakistanis always devolves into a mud slinging contest , because neither side has anything concrete to go on, just the army's word and whether or not they buy it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The issue here is the army's conduct during civilian governments, my contention being that the civilian government is at least somewhat a facade and the army still maintains supremacy over them in many critical areas, defense and foreign policy being key among them.


Well for one, it's the civilian government, not the army who usually take the blame for failures on this front(though it's the other way round when it comes to taking credit for successes) so they're not the ones who end up looking stupid. If you go through all the threads here about the recent wave of attacks, you can see for yourself the staggering disparity between the number of people blaming this on the federal government(and provincial in the case of non KPK attacks) and defending the army against any criticism, and the handful who are demanding that the army take its rightful share of the blame. It doesn't hurt either that the media is free to report the government's failures, of which there are many, but can not do the same in the army's case which means that public perception of the army is skewed heavily towards one extreme.

Secondly, you'll notice that the army affiliated organizations such as LeJ and LeT have far more public support than, say, TTP. LeJ's political wing contests and wins elections in several parts of Pakistan and have enough public support that all three mainstream parties are currently in electoral alliances with them(not sure if PPP still is but they were until not too long ago and the other two definitely still are). LeJ also selectively attacks a particular sect for the most part and in one particular part of Pakistan(Balochistan) so it doesn't get nearly as much attention or draw the kind of public ire that a TTP attack does.

TL;DR - They're not made to look stupid by such attacks at all because the overwhelming majority of the public blames the federal and provincial governments(KPK notwithstanding) for them, not the army.

If that's true, then the civilian govt is more of a sham than I believed previously. You would wonder why any government would want to rule under those conditions, but I guess it's an opportunity for politicians to get on the gravy train as long as they keep quiet.

I suppose the only ones throwing a spanner in the works in that case are the Jihadi terrorists. Whichever way you look at it, to create havoc in an environment where they are looked on as 'partners' still seems counter-productive.

 

[DW44]

If that's true, then the civilian govt is more of a sham than I believed previously. You would wonder why any government would want to rule under those conditions, but I guess it's an opportunity for politicians to get on the gravy train as long as they keep quiet.

It is, that's not really in question. As for why they're still in power, it's because, as you said, they still get to ride the gravy train so long as they don't overstep their bounds. There's a lot of money to be made even if they're not in charge of everything.

I suppose the only ones throwing a spanner in the works in that case are the Jihadi terrorists. Whichever way you look at it, to create havoc in an environment where they are looked on as 'partners' still seems counter-productive.

It would seem so but such is the way things work here. I keep bringing up LeJ because they're the most prolific terrorist organization in the country bar TTP, and yet their political wing ASWJ, not to mention Sipah Sahaba which is more militant than political, can organize rallies across the country including the capital under police protection while the same right is denied to legitimate political parties because there's a culture of impunity when it comes to such organizations which has emboldened them to do as they please without fear of any real repercussions.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Not at all. Five years is not recent and besides, there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to that effect which is as good as it gets here so any opinions concerning the army, favorable or otherwise, are based on "evidence" of similar quality given the opacity surrounding their activities, especially the ISI's, and the fact that most news and analysis on the subject is preapproved by ISPR. Anyhow, it's clear which way you lean on this issue, as evident by similar attacks on the credibility of anyone questioning the army across several threads, so this debate is futile. Whether or not the Americans believe me is besides the point, though I'm not conceding that they do considering I only have your word to go on, is irrelevant. What happens to the people of Pakistan does not concern them and given their own intelligence agencies' involvement in the drug trade, I doubt this is an issue they would raise too much of a hoopla over anyway.

The Trump reference is a textbook case of false equivalency considering the differences between their situation and ours. They live in a vibrant democracy with a free press, free speech to debate and question just about anything, and a healthy balance between liberal and conservative elements in society. We have none of those, and when it comes to the institution in question, concrete information is especially scarce so we make do with whatever bits and pieces find their way through the cracks but the big picture is always obscured and that's by design. This is why you will find that this debate between pro and anti army Pakistanis always devolves into a mud slinging contest , because neither side has anything concrete to go on, just the army's word and whether or not they buy it.

Your post is an attempt at obfuscation. the burden of proof is on your shoulders, you are the one making outlandish claims about Pakistan army.

It seems you are the only one who has unearthed these great scandals where the rest of international community, some of which have vast spy networks operating in Pakistan, has been unable to do this evidence. Sorry to burst your bubble, but just because you believe it, doesn't make it true. If you think it is then provide any evidence, it's very straight forward.

Your attempt at providing some evidence turned out to be musings of an Indian, when you thought it was the work of an academic....

Unless you can back up your claims, you are just like trump supporters, searching around the net to validate your hateful views.... actually let's see these so called obscure academic papers and reports that you refer to....

 

[DW44]

Your post is an attempt at obfuscation. the burden of proof is on your shoulders, you are the one making outlandish claims about Pakistan army.

It seems you are the only one who has unearthed these great scandals where the rest of international community, some of which have vast spy networks operating in Pakistan, has been unable to do this evidence. Sorry to burst your bubble, but just because you believe it, doesn't make it true. If you think it is then provide any evidence, it's very straight forward.

Your attempt at providing some evidence turned out to be musings of an Indian, when you thought it was the work of an academic....

Unless you can back up your claims, you are just like trump supporters, searching around the net to validate your hateful views.... actually let's see these so called obscure academic papers and reports that you refer to....

What burden of proof, this is a forum, not a court of law and, as such, there's no burden of proof. If this is the first you're hearing of it, that's on account of you having zero first hand exposure to Pakistan, not because I dreamed it up one day and there's been no discourse on it in Pakistan. You'd think intelligence agencies of different countries would have better things to do than to worry about what our's is doing at home, especially considering that several of them are guilty of similar misdeeds but apparently their mission statement revolves around exposing ISI's small time criminal activities at home.

I made it clear at the outset that evidence of the kind you're demanding here is not something people in Pakistan have access to but you're more concerned with making a (quite frankly ridiculous) point than you are with the evidence because lets face it, had I accused the Indians or Nawaz of something similar, you would not be getting worked up over it and making these ridiculous demands for evidence. If any of us is akin to a Trump supporter, it's the delusional Brit, who for some reason has a bone to pick with people opposed to the Pakistani army's legal activities, trying to tell a Pakistani who has actually spent his life among the army's ranks, that he knows more about the finer points of what said army gets up to in Pakistan. Anyway, I've had just about enough of your know nothing non sense so as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That's just the way the world works. Without solid proof, even the most plausible theories remain just that. Just look across the border ( yes I'm sorry but we are going there again). We have someone who was reviled a few years ago and banned from the USA due to his alleged involvement in the religious riots and massacres in Gujarat. He got cleared by his own courts ( a bit like ours) and now he's a heroic figure and lauded the world over as leader of the Shining India.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

What burden of proof, this is a forum, not a court of law and, as such, there's no burden of proof. If this is the first you're hearing of it, that's on account of you having zero first hand exposure to Pakistan, not because I dreamed it up one day and there's been no discourse on it in Pakistan. You'd think intelligence agencies of different countries would have better things to do than to worry about what our's is doing at home, especially considering that several of them are guilty of similar misdeeds but apparently their mission statement revolves around exposing ISI's small time criminal activities at home.

I made it clear at the outset that evidence of the kind you're demanding here is not something people in Pakistan have access to but you're more concerned with making a (quite frankly ridiculous) point than you are with the evidence because lets face it, had I accused the Indians or Nawaz of something similar, you would not be getting worked up over it and making these ridiculous demands for evidence. If any of us is akin to a Trump supporter, it's the delusional Brit, who for some reason has a bone to pick with people opposed to the Pakistani army's legal activities, trying to tell a Pakistani who has actually spent his life among the army's ranks, that he knows more about the finer points of what said army gets up to in Pakistan. Anyway, I've had just about enough of your know nothing non sense so as far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

So you can't now even provide link to these academic papers?

Of course you have nothing but to run away now because you have nothing to back up your lies.

Obfuscation and lies and spreading of fake news.... you are nothing like trump supporter are you?

Not even the Indian media or government has every drum beated on this issue... that should give everyone a clue as to how much of a fiction writer you are.

 

[DW44]

So you can't now even provide link to these academic papers?

Of course you have nothing but to run away now because you have nothing to back up your lies.

Not even the Indian media or government has every drum beated on this issue... that should give everyone a clue as to how much of a fiction writer you are.

Lies? And you know that how, unless you have seen evidence that refutes my claims in which case feel free to share it. It's clear from the vitriol you have been spewing these last few days against several posters who have questioned the army's role in various misdeeds that you're more interested in defending a corrupt organization than you are in the facts, as evident by the outright dismissal of pretty much the best quality evidence you'll get on anything concerning the army on the other thread so by all means continue pestering people with the ill informed pro army propaganda.

That you're unaware of the Indian media making a hue and cry over this issue speaks further to the fact that you're going after people with an opinion you don't like without so much as a cursory google search in the way of background information so spare me the faux outrage at the so called lies.

Obfuscation and lies and spreading of fake news.... you are nothing like trump supporter are you?

Not in the slightest. You claiming something is false doesn't make it so, especially when we take into account your blatantly obvious bias in this case. And anyway, isn't racism the hallmark of Trump supporters because I recall someone recently describing an entire race, that accounts for 1 in 5 Pakistanis, as "a barbaric race that can be bought and sold", so I'll let saner minds be the judge of who has more in common with Trump supporters.

Anyhow, like I said, I have nothing further to say to you so by all means keep ranting and attacking anyone who doesn't kiss the army's boots.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Lies? And you know that how, unless you have seen evidence that refutes my claims in which case feel free to share it. It's clear from the vitriol you have been spewing these last few days against several posters who have questioned the army's role in various misdeeds that you're more interested in defending a corrupt organization than you are in the facts, as evident by the outright dismissal of pretty much the best quality evidence you'll get on anything concerning the army on the other thread so by all means continue pestering people with the ill informed pro army propaganda.

That you're unaware of the Indian media making a hue and cry over this issue speaks further to the fact that you're going after people with an opinion you don't like without so much as a cursory google search in the way of background information so spare me the faux outrage at the so called lies.


Not in the slightest. You claiming something is false doesn't make it so, especially when we take into account your blatantly obvious bias in this case. And anyway, isn't racism the hallmark of Trump supporters because I recall someone recently describing an entire race, that accounts for 1 in 5 Pakistanis, as "a barbaric race that can be bought and sold", so I'll let saner minds be the judge of who has more in common with Trump supporters.

Anyhow, like I said, I have nothing further to say to you so by all means keep ranting and attacking anyone who doesn't kiss the army's boots.

It's very straight forward, if you say something or make claims of something so outrageous then be prepared to back them up with something..... otherwise it's safe to say that you have made it all up. You and Yasir made the same claims and I challenged you both to back it up with some evidence... why is that so upsetting? Fair dos to yasir, atleast he wasn't obfuscating like you and attempted to provide something which turned out to be be nothing more than hearsay from third party.... uncle of a friend said this and so on. You remember the ridicule Ijaz Butt received for making outlandish statement about English players without any proof?

If I call you a thief, then I better have some evidence to back up that claim, otherwise it's just a lie... just because I think/say that you are a thief, doesn't meant that you are... see how it works?

 

[DW44]

It's very straight forward, if you say something or make claims of something so outrageous then be prepared to back them up with something..... otherwise it's safe to say that you have made it all up. You and Yasir made the same claims and I challenged you both to back it up with some evidence... why is that so upsetting? Fair dos to yasir, atleast he wasn't obfuscating like you and attempted to provide something which turned out to be be nothing more than hearsay from third party.... uncle of a friend said this and so on. You remember the ridicule Ijaz Butt received for making outlandish statement about English players without any proof?

Lets not pretend you're interested in the facts because if you were, as opposed to being disingenuous in your quest to make a point, you would have acknowledged that [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION], unlike you, has actually spent a fair amount of his life in Pakistan and there might be something to what he's saying. Instead what we saw were questions on his credibility, similar to what you're doing here, and what you did when several posters did provide a fair amount of reading material on the subject. We seem to be developing a pattern here so drop the holier than thou act, you're no crusader for the truth and your lack of acknowledgement of the fact that all those people with the same gripe against an institution might know something you don't, something that is not exactly unrealistic given your complete ignorance of all things Pakistan.

The big difference between here and the Ijaz Butt situation is that Ijaz Butt was party to the dispute that the statements were made in reference to and could be held legally liable for them. That is not how internet fora work. Next time you have something to say about Nawaz Sharif or Asif Zardari though, feel free to come armed with evidence that is admissible in a court of law because I'll remember to ask.

If I call you a thief, then I better have some evidence to back up that claim, otherwise it's just a lie... just because I think/say that you are a thief, doesn't meant that you are... see how it works?

Isn't that exactly what you've been doing these last few days to several people whose views you don't like and an entire race of people?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Lets not pretend you're interested in the facts because if you were, as opposed to being disingenuous in your quest to make a point, you would have acknowledged that [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION], unlike you, has actually spent a fair amount of his life in Pakistan and there might be something to what he's saying. Instead what we saw were questions on his credibility, similar to what you're doing here, and what you did when several posters did provide a fair amount of reading material on the subject. We seem to be developing a pattern here so drop the holier than thou act, you're no crusader for the truth and your lack of acknowledgement of the fact that all those people with the same gripe against an institution might know something you don't, something that is not exactly unrealistic given your complete ignorance of all things Pakistan.

The big difference between here and the Ijaz Butt situation is that Ijaz Butt was party to the dispute that the statements were made in reference to and could be held legally liable for them. That is not how internet fora work. Next time you have something to say about Nawaz Sharif or Asif Zardari though, feel free to come armed with evidence that is admissible in a court of law because I'll remember to ask.


Isn't that exactly what you've been doing these last few days to several people whose views you don't like and an entire race of people?

you made a claim as a fact that Pakistan army is/was involved in spreading drugs in Pakistan and ruining the lives of millions of Pakistanis... that is no small claim. That is a humumgous claim. Now please stop obfuscating and provide us with some evidence... like the academic papers you mentioned. So we can all see and make our minds up otherwise you are just another Ijaz Butt. If you don't have any evidence other than hearsay then just say so.

I have already told you that Americans (state department and drug enforcement agency) don't agree with you. The exact quote from Washington post piece is in the other thread in response to the Indian who was trying to use that piece selectively.

Talking about libel, There are listed companies who have taken Internet forum users to court over spreading lies to manipulate the stock price.....