Overall record of Asian teams for Test matches in England

[Arham_PakFan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">As India prepare to face England, here's the stats of Asian teams in Tests versus England, in England:<br>Pakistan - Played 53, Won 12, Drawn 18, Lost 23<br>India - Played 57, Won 6, Drawn 21, Lost 30<br>Sri Lanka - Played 18, Won 3, Drawn 7, Lost 8<br>Bangladesh - Played 4, Lost 4<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1023905142670864385?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Pakistan have the best win loss ratio and Sri Lanka are second best

 

[topspin]

Discounting draws - Pakistan is the only side with a w/L above 0.5

 

[enkidu_]

Pakistan's first tour of England was in '54 (two years after getting its Test status), and it squared the series 1-1 (4), the last match being won thanks to Fazal Mahmood's 12fer :

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17440/scorecard/62776/england-vs-pakistan-4th-test/

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Pakistan is the best asian team in england by some distance.

 

[lehen]

Pakistan is the best asian team in england by some distance.

The main credit after 2000 goes to their batsmen, Pre-2000 it is obviously the bolwers

 

[Ab Fan]

Inzamam, Younis, Moyo, Misbah- they all have done very well in England. So, no surprises tbh. Even Azhar for that matter.

 

[Stewie]

Seriously, India has won only 6 matches in England? I would have never known.. why is that? You would think even with their weak bowling, the co diction’s would have suited their medium pacers who rely on swing mostly.

 

[CadPakFan]

Not surprised Pakistan has the best record, Whenever Pakistan plays in England it almost feels like a home game.

 

[Pete Rose]

The main credit after 2000 goes to their batsmen, Pre-2000 it is obviously the bolwers

I believe our win loss ratio went lower after 2000. Batsmen scored runs but we don’t win many games. Then there was the totally bowler dominated 2010 series. Thereafter it was a case of bowlers and batsmen both doing well for Pakistan

 

[Bhaijaan]

Pakistan is the greatest cricket nation ever.

 

[cricketindiafan]

So many heartaches - Not winning at Edgbaston on 1996 tour when we allowed England 9th and 10th wickets to add over 100 runs, not going for the kill at the Oval test in 2007 and being content with a draw and then the abysmal 2011 and 2014 tours when we just folded up.

We have been mostly terrible in England and that reflects in the record.

 

[CricVet]

Trolling alert issued.

On a serious note If Eng were to be home in 90s, we could have had a great series Vs AU in 98/99 there when Shoaib and Zahid played together.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

For me Dhoni is the worst indian test captain ever, he won nothing overseas.
Ganguly's captaincy stint made us a truly great team in all conditions followed by dravid and kumble 's good captaincy stints but then dhoni destroyed the whole culture.
Test captaincy requires passion, in virat kohli i see a great test captain and he' ll surely do well.
We were bashed endlessly in England during msd's reign.

 

[cricketindiafan]

For me Dhoni is the worst indian test captain ever, he won nothing overseas.
Ganguly's captaincy stint made us a truly great team in all conditions followed by dravid and kumble 's good captaincy stints but then dhoni destroyed the whole culture.
Test captaincy requires passion, in virat kohli i see a great test captain and he' ll surely do well.
We were bashed endlessly in England during msd's reign.

Dhoni lost infetest in test cricket after 2011 WC. Should have retired then and there from tests. Our test squad is still only slowly coming out of his pathetic mindset in longer fodmats especially away from home.

Still remember reading "Away tests are there to help you improve as player. Winning does not matter, what matters is the process" and our media - mostly Dhoni cheerleaders - played along.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/1140815/jsp/sports/story_18724052.jsp

 

[BlackShadow]

Pakistan has always done well in England. If it wasn't for their minnow-level losing streak in Australia and South Africa, Pakistan would actually be rated a decent touring side.

 

[Stewie]

Pakistan has always done well in England. If it wasn't for their minnow-level losing streak in Australia and South Africa, Pakistan would actually be rated a decent touring side.

Pakistan is a decent tour in side compared to India. FACT!

 

[BlackShadow]

Pakistan is a decent tour in side compared to India. FACT!

Nah, I think you have something like a 20-0 losing streak in Australia and South Africa..consecutive losses, not even a draw! Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Stewie]

Nah, I think you have something like a 20-0 losing streak in Australia and South Africa..consecutive losses, not even a draw! Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Why don’t you pull up overall win loss ratio of all countries and compare.. even now when Pakistan team is not as strong, it still has not done that bad. India may pip our record in SA and Aus by a few tests but last ok at your record in England.. don’t cherry pick to make your team look good. All international sides have a country or two where they don’t do too well.


Once your overall away stats start matching Pakistan’s then you are more than welcome to make such tall claims..

 

[BlackShadow]

Why don’t you pull up overall win loss ratio of all countries and compare.. even now when Pakistan team is not as strong, it still has not done that bad. India may pip our record in SA and Aus by a few tests but last ok at your record in England.. don’t cherry pick to make your team look good. All international sides have a country or two where they don’t do too well.


Once your overall away stats start matching Pakistan’s then you are more than welcome to make such tall claims..

That's what I said, Pakistan indeed have a great record in England for a touring side. But I still won't call them a decent touring after decades of whitewashing in SA and Australia.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Dhoni lost infetest in test cricket after 2011 WC. Should have retired then and there from tests. Our test squad is still only slowly coming out of his pathetic mindset in longer fodmats especially away from home.

Still remember reading "Away tests are there to help you improve as player. Winning does not matter, what matters is the process" and our media - mostly Dhoni cheerleaders - played along.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/1140815/jsp/sports/story_18724052.jsp

Yup ,it always appeared as if dhoni was never interested in that format,i think he had the mentality that bilateral odi wins are more important than tests.
I remember that during his tenure preparations for away tours were negligible .
Indian team was too much obsessed with loi cricket
In one of the press conferences on eng tour he said that:"he was happy with team india's progress as test team "and this was after indian team could'nt even play 90 overs in two innings,worst mentality for a test captain.

 

[Mp812]

In terms of test series

I may be mistaken but if i remember correctly India has 3 series wins when touring England ( 1971, 1986 , 2007)
Based on comments here, I though Pakistan had won a lot more series touring England.But I only recall series wins in 1987 , 1992 and 1996 i.e 3 series wins.
If stats are not wrong,both teams have been poor travellers to England. aint it?

 

[Stewie]

In terms of test series

I may be mistaken but if i remember correctly India has 3 series wins when touring England ( 1971, 1986 , 2007)
Based on comments here, I though Pakistan had won a lot more series touring England.But I only recall series wins in 1987 , 1992 and 1996 i.e 3 series wins.
If stats are not wrong,both teams have been poor travellers to England. aint it?

It’s funny how they want to compare series wins or stats to justify their own argument.. which one is it.. win loss ratio, series wins or number of tests won. Why can’t someone do some real research and compare the stats of Pakistan vs England/aus//SA/NZ/wi away and then do same for India, you can do that for tests since 2000 because that’s when India has been strongest and Pakistan weaker..

You will find there is not a big difference between the two teams.. so if Pakistan is poor traveler so is India.

Now if you compare pre-2000 stats, we’ll need I really elaborate?

 

[Dingolfy]

Why don’t you pull up overall win loss ratio of all countries and compare.. even now when Pakistan team is not as strong, it still has not done that bad. India may pip our record in SA and Aus by a few tests but last ok at your record in England.. don’t cherry pick to make your team look good. All international sides have a country or two where they don’t do too well.


Once your overall away stats start matching Pakistan’s then you are more than welcome to make such tall claims..

You WERE a good touring side.But from 2000, our W/L is .846 and yours is 0.697.

 

[Stewie]

You WERE a good touring side.But from 2000, our W/L is .846 and yours is 0.697.

And that’s my point.. even at worst case scenario do you think that’s a big big difference to make claims about?
.15?

What was the difference prior to 2000?

 

[Mp812]

You are correct in your analysis.
However one gets impression , that both countries have won just 3 test series is not a stat who are keen on digesting.
Looks like stat cherry picking ,which does not suit you, is not acceptable to you. Understandable and nothing wrong about it.
All that stats shows is ,despite the lack of bowling resources India has had over the years , it has still managed to keep number test series wins in England similar to a country which has had good pacers over the years.

 

[Stewie]

You are correct in your analysis.
However one gets impression , that both countries have won just 3 test series is not a stat who are keen on digesting.
Looks like stat cherry picking ,which does not suit you, is not acceptable to you. Understandable and nothing wrong about it.
All that stats shows is ,despite the lack of bowling resources India has had over the years , it has still managed to keep number test series wins in England similar to a country which has had good pacers over the years.

So by the same token how many series has India won against Australia in Australia compared with Pakistan ??

 

[Mp812]

So by the same token how many series has India won against Australia in Australia compared with Pakistan ??

I though you knew. Incase you did not know it is none. How many have Pakistan won?

 

[cricketindiafan]

Yup ,it always appeared as if dhoni was never interested in that format,i think he had the mentality that bilateral odi wins are more important than tests.
I remember that during his tenure preparations for away tours were negligible .
Indian team was too much obsessed with loi cricket
In one of the press conferences on eng tour he said that:"he was happy with team india's progress as test team "and this was after indian team could'nt even play 90 overs in two innings,worst mentality for a test captain.

Problem as I said is, same mindset still persists. We are perhaps the only team that has 'optional net practice' on away tours, treat practice matches like sh$t and never get into a proper preparatory set up before a series. At home, these do nkt matter but away from home only these issues matter.

Only god knows what improvements our batting, bowling hand fielding coaches have been able to make in these years with a fat pay check. They are no more than glorrious yesmen. Bowling coach has one solution for everything - knuckle ball!

Had very high hopes from Virat the captain. In terms of taking the team forward and leaving a solid legacy behind, he's been a complete failure so far. Nothing against him as a batsman though.

 

[Stewie]

I though you knew. Incase you did not know it is none. How many have Pakistan won?

Yes. Exactly.. so both teams are equally poor travelers then?

 

[Mp812]

Yes. Exactly.. so both teams are equally poor travelers then?

True

So basically India and Pakisan test series win record in Australia ( none by both) , England (3 test series by both) and South Africa ( none by both) is same.
The only other overseas tours left outside Asia are NA and West Indies .
In WI (India has 4 test series wins 1971,2006,2011,2016 where as Pakistan won in 2017 ).
As far as NZ goes , Pakistan won test series in NZ ( 2010 ,2003 ,1992, 1993,1994 ,1978 ,1973) while Ind in NZ ( 1967 ,2008)

So the only country where Pakistan has won more test series (non-Asian condition) is NZ, which is probably historically weakest of non Asian countries to tour.

 

[Stewie]

True

So basically India and Pakisan test series win record in Australia ( none by both) , England (3 test series by both) and South Africa ( none by both) is same.
The only other overseas tours left outside Asia are NA and West Indies .
In WI (India has 4 test series wins 1971,2006,2011,2016 where as Pakistan won in 2017 ).
As far as NZ goes , Pakistan won test series in NZ ( 2010 ,2003 ,1992, 1993,1994 ,1978 ,1973) while Ind in NZ ( 1967 ,2008)

So the only country where Pakistan has won more test series (non-Asian condition) is NZ, which is probably historically weakest of non Asian countries to tour.

Whereas India has lost more series than Pakistan.. against the “historically weakest of non Asian countries” ..

See what I did there? You can manipulate and twist facts to your own advantage.. but I still fail to see any major fool proof and undeniable evidence that India’s overseas record is for sure better than pakistan’s.

Let me put it this way, if both team maintain their current forms, it will still take about a decade or so to match the winloss ratio of Pakistan.. and that’s not a personal claim, it’s based on stats. You can do the math and create any data models you like.

 

[CricVet]

Whereas India has lost more series than Pakistan.. against the “historically weakest of non Asian countries” ..

See what I did there? You can manipulate and twist facts to your own advantage.. but I still fail to see any major fool proof and undeniable evidence that India’s overseas record is for sure better than pakistan’s.

Let me put it this way, if both team maintain their current forms, it will still take about a decade or so to match the winloss ratio of Pakistan.. and that’s not a personal claim, it’s based on stats. You can do the math and create any data models you like.

The hunter becomes hunted - good job.

 

[Mp812]

Whereas India has lost more series than Pakistan.. against the “historically weakest of non Asian countries” ..

See what I did there? You can manipulate and twist facts to your own advantage.. but I still fail to see any major fool proof and undeniable evidence that India’s overseas record is for sure better than pakistan’s.

Let me put it this way, if both team maintain their current forms, it will still take about a decade or so to match the winloss ratio of Pakistan.. and that’s not a personal claim, it’s based on stats. You can do the math and create any data models you like.

Perfect so Pakistan had good record against weak nz side but India has better record against west Indians a historically strong probably strongest in cricket history

 

[Mp812]

The hunter becomes hunted - good job.

The key word is historically. Isnt it.
By the same logic you provided ,India has better record against "histroically" strongest team in cricket.
Does that mean , India are better travellers?

 

[ManFan]

Perfect so Pakistan had good record against weak nz side but India has better record against west Indians a historically strong probably strongest in cricket history

You gotta love it.

India has had all Test series wins in the WI prior and post their period of world domination. And not to mention, three after the turn of the millennium.

And if NZ is a “historically” weak side, than why has India not won more than two series there? Their last coming a decade ago while Pakistan’s lost their first in over three decades two years ago.

 

[Stewie]

Perfect so Pakistan had good record against weak nz side but India has better record against west Indians a historically strong probably strongest in cricket history

Three of the four Indian wins are after 2005. WI were a spent force by the mid nineties. I will give you credit for winning the series in 71, sure. But while I obliged you by simply looking at the number of series won by India as a benchmark, will you humor me in terms of the actual number of tests won by the sides historically? Also referred to as win/loss ratio?

 

[Stewie]

By the way I see now that we have successfully derailed this thread, it is meant to discuss touring sides in England and not another Wang measuring contest between Pakistan and India. So I will stop participating in that line of discussion and if anybody wishes to expand on that topic, feel free to open another thread.

Can anybody, by the way, do some research and post win/loss ratio of touring Asian sides in England?

 

[Abdullah719]

By the way I see now that we have successfully derailed this thread, it is meant to discuss touring sides in England and not another Wang measuring contest between Pakistan and India. So I will stop participating in that line of discussion and if anybody wishes to expand on that topic, feel free to open another thread.

Can anybody, by the way, do some research and post win/loss ratio of touring Asian sides in England?

 

[Stewie]

View attachment 83115

Now that’s what i call a solid, undeniable and overwhelming evidence.. thank you, sir!

 

[Mp812]

That is awesome stats but I guess cherry picked since it's only against a team where India is bad . Let's pick against Australia post 1996

 

[Mp812]

Picking up stats between specific period over picking up overall stats is cherry picking isn't it?

 

[CricVet]

That is awesome stats but I guess cherry picked since it's only against a team where India is bad . Let's pick against Australia post 1996

Did you look at the title of the thread. Why discuss AU here? Why not against AU in England?

 

[Mp812]

Why would India or Pakistan play Australia in England? Makes no sense

 

[CricVet]

Why would India or Pakistan play Australia in England? Makes no sense

Because Pak has. look it up.

 

[Mp812]

Because Pak has. look it up.

Really wow it did. Why?

 

[Big Mac]

Dhoni lost infetest in test cricket after 2011 WC. Should have retired then and there from tests. Our test squad is still only slowly coming out of his pathetic mindset in longer fodmats especially away from home.

Still remember reading "Away tests are there to help you improve as player. Winning does not matter, what matters is the process" and our media - mostly Dhoni cheerleaders - played along.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/1140815/jsp/sports/story_18724052.jsp

If you actually read what he said then he's not wrong.

Let us take one match at a time… We know that if we win this match what impact it will have on the series. But let us not look at the series, because it becomes like a long-term goal. We should look at small goals… Start of the Test match, then breaking it up into sessions… And if you win more sessions than the opposition, and if you don’t do badly in the sessions that you have lost, you will end up wining the Test… That is the priority for us. So we are not thinking too much ahead.

The result is never more important than the process. It is always the process that will be the key because it puts less pressure on the team. It is an important Test match… But at the same time, it is still the breaking up of the sessions that matters, because that would give us an advantage. So we will still be looking more into the process than the result.

I wouldn't argue too much with that approach.

 

[CricVet]

Well, AU has not been touring Pak for almost 2 decades. We had to play at a neutral venue. Here is the detail:

 

[Stewie]

as i said, lets stick to the topic of this thread.... indian posters want to discuss other topics, feel free to open new threads...

 

[khurram39]

Most of the Pakistani played in England and by far this is the most authentic reason to win in England.

 

[Balthazar]

What about the series wins? Whenever India has won, they made sure to win the series. No one's going to remember how many Test matches you won as long as you don't win the series. As of now, it's 3-3 to India and Pakistan in terms of Test series win.

 

[bujhee kom]

What about the series wins? Whenever India has won, they made sure to win the series. No one's going to remember how many Test matches you won as long as you don't win the series. As of now, it's 3-3 to India and Pakistan in terms of Test series win.

Test matches matter. Firstly people do recall test games. Secondly, Pk's record in the UK reflects many a drawn series which is very credible. Just as it would be crass to assume 0 won series each meant Pk has matched Ind in Aus, it is a nonsense to suggest hald the number of test wins means India have done as hell as Pk in the UK. JAMODIs are a thing - JAMT is not.

I admire how Indian fans try to twist every stat for advantage. Insecurities surely run deep.

 

[Balthazar]

Test matches matter. Firstly people do recall test games. Secondly, Pk's record in the UK reflects many a drawn series which is very credible. Just as it would be crass to assume 0 won series each meant Pk has matched Ind in Aus, it is a nonsense to suggest hald the number of test wins means India have done as hell as Pk in the UK. JAMODIs are a thing - JAMT is not.

I admire how Indian fans try to twist every stat for advantage. Insecurities surely run deep.

We have won more Test matches in Australia compared to Pakistan, but hardly any Indian fans give weightage to that as we yet to win a series over there.

I admire how Pakistan fans try to twist every stat to their advantage, insecurities surely run deep.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

We have won more Test matches in Australia compared to Pakistan, but hardly any Indian fans give weightage to that as we yet to win a series over there.

I admire how Pakistan fans try to twist every stat to their advantage, insecurities surely run deep.

Bujhee Kom is Bangladeshi

 

[Balthazar]

Bujhee Kom is Bangladeshi

Then no comments to make.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Pakistan have been fluking since early 50s.

ICC should have stripped our test status decades ago
/s

 

[Rahul1]

Bujhee Kom is Bangladeshi

It doesn't matter. Biased opinion is biased no matter what.

 

[Ab Fan]

View attachment 83115

Will help if you put the same for Australia, SA, New Zealand and West Indies?

 

[Ab Fan]

There is no doubt that India have been a terrible away side, particularly, outside Asia. The record speaks for that. It was only in the 2000s decade that India earned some pride due to their record overseas.We have been pathetic since the 2011 WC again, although thanks to a dominant series win in WI, our numbers looks slightly better.

In contrast, it is true that Pakistan have been atleast a decent touring side historically and their record in New Zealand and England have been fantastic to say the least.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Will help if you put the same for Australia, SA, New Zealand and West Indies?

Here you go

 

[Ab Fan]

Total wins outside Asia:-

In Australia:-

India- 5
Pakistan- 4

In South Africa:-

India- 3
Pakistan- 2

In New Zealand:-

India- 5
Pakistan-10

In England:-

India- 6
Pakistan- 12

In West Indies:-

India- 7
Pakistan- 7

Total:-

India- 26
Pakistan- 35

So, it is not wrong to say that Pakistan have atleast been a historically decent touring side thanks to the bowling attack they had over the years.

 

[Ab Fan]

Here you go

View attachment 83120

Lol, you did the opposite. I meant to say keeping India, Pakistan and SL as primary teams and opposition as

1) Australia
2) South Africa
3) New Zealand
4) West Indies

One-by-One! Anyways, Thanks for the effort.

 

[Abdullah719]

Will help if you put the same for Australia, SA, New Zealand and West Indies?

Well you got the figures already, but anyway, here:

 

[Swashbuckler]

I think pre 1947 results should be set aside as under British India because those teams included players from both countries. Worst part is we were led by corrupt British lackeys who sabotaged our chances and decided results of matches before the toss. Google Maharajkumar of Vizianagram, you will understand what I am trying to say.



But I admit Pakistan have done brilliantly in England. Having followed their cricket keenly for many years I must admit that India is far behind Pakistan especially in England and New Zealand tours. Pakistani fast bowlers have been magical there which explains their success. Forget India, I think even non Asian teams don't play as well as Pakistan in England.

 

[Ab Fan]

Well you got the figures already, but anyway, here:

View attachment 83122

View attachment 83123

View attachment 83124

View attachment 83125

Thanks for the list.

Clearly, when it comes to won matches outside Asia, Pakistan are well ahead of India historically.

However, much to India's credit as well, they have managed to draw many matches thanks to India's batting and is quite visible when you look at India's performance in SA where they have drawn 7 tests out of 20 tests compared to Pakistan's 1 in 12, as well as WI, where they drew 26 out of 49 tests compared to Pakistan 7 out of 26 tests.

So, the records also firmly confirms the famous statement that "batsmen can draw many games but it is bowlers who win you matches". India's record in Asia would be much better though because of spin resources.

 

[Stewie]

This shows me that in swinging conditions Pakistan does well whereas in bouncy conditions, India does well.

 

[Ab Fan]

This shows me that in swinging conditions Pakistan does well whereas in bouncy conditions, India does well.

Indian batters perform very well in bouncy conditions but we dont have bowlers to win series there. We have drawn many games there due to batting. In contrast, Pakistani batters are very poor in bouncy conditions of Aus/SA which is why they lost so many matches there.

Pakistani batters, however, do very well in swinging conditions of England and NZ, whether, it is Miandad, Inzy, Moyo, Younis or Misbah.

 

[Stewie]

Indian batters perform very well in bouncy conditions but we dont have bowlers to win series there. We have drawn many games there due to batting. In contrast, Pakistani batters are very poor in bouncy conditions of Aus/SA which is why they lost so many matches there.

Pakistani batters, however, do very well in swinging conditions of England and NZ, whether, it is Miandad, Inzy, Moyo, Younis or Misbah.

What’s the reason for Indian batsmen struggling when the ball swings? It seems to me when the ball moves around, they struggle, which is strange considering they are supposed to have solid techniques..

 

[Buffet]

What’s the reason for Indian batsmen struggling when the ball swings? It seems to me when the ball moves around, they struggle, which is strange considering they are supposed to have solid techniques..

Pretty much every batting line up struggles when ball swings.

 

[Monsee]

Total wins outside Asia:-

In Australia:-

India- 5 out of 44 played
Pakistan- 4 out of 35 played

In South Africa:-

India- 3 out of 20 played
Pakistan- 2 out of 12 played

In New Zealand:-

India- 5 out of 23 played
Pakistan-10 out of 31 played

In England:-

India- 6 out of 53 played since 1954, so no ancient historical matches included
Pakistan- 12 out of 50 played since 1952

In West Indies:-

India- 7 out of 49 played
Pakistan- 7 out of 26 played


Total:-

India- 26 out of 144 played
Pakistan- 35 out of 96 played

So, it is not wrong to say that Pakistan have atleast been a historically decent touring side thanks to the bowling attack they had over the years.

LOL, there goes that argument about having won many more tests in Aus/SA or having done exceptionally well by India vs poor performances by Pak

If you look at the bold parts for all the opposition, it proves how India has been a pretty poor touring team vs Pak who have been a much better touring side!

 

[Swashbuckler]

LOL, there goes that argument about having won many more tests in Aus/SA or having done exceptionally well by India vs poor performances by Pak

If you look at the bold parts for all the opposition, it proves how India has been a pretty poor touring team vs Pak who have been a much better touring side!

I agree with the gist of what you are saying but just a minor correction. It should read India (6 out of 50) and Pakistan (12 out of 53) in England post 1947. Not that it makes a difference but had to point out because England is one country apart from New Zealand where Pakistan have played more tests than India in these last 70 odd years. That is the point I was trying to make in another thread about low attendance (empty seats) for tomorrow's match.

 

[Stewie]

Pretty much every batting line up struggles when ball swings.

My question was for abfan who said Pakistani batsmen have done well in England but it seemed strange to me their Indian counterparts didn’t.

 

[Saj]

Over the years Pakistan have come to England with bowling attacks capable of taking 20 wickets in England and that is the main difference between them and the other Asian teams.

The likes of India in the past have relied too much on one or two bowlers like Kapil Dev, whereas Pakistan has had 3 or 4 match-winning bowlers in their XI.

 

[Swashbuckler]

What’s the reason for Indian batsmen struggling when the ball swings? It seems to me when the ball moves around, they struggle, which is strange considering they are supposed to have solid techniques..

Could it be because Pakistani batsmen right from junior cricket days are exposed to high quality swing bowling? Bounce isn't a forte for Pakistan bowlers but they are very good in swinging the ball. I also think apart from a few (like Asif) Pakistan hasn't produced many great seam bowlers, hence their batsmen aren't exposed to much seam movement also. That is why their ability on seaming decks isn't as good as against swing. I guess pitches in Pakistan have historically been flat, so bowlers had to rely on genuine pace and swing/reverse swing to pick wickets.

In India's case the relative weakness against swing may be because of lack of exposure. Even seam movement exposure is less (but not that big a gap vs Pakistan like in case of swing) but may be Indian batsmen use their superior schooling and technique to counter it. Pace and bounce I think can be simulated easily in nets, so I guess Indians have worked more efficiently than the Pakistanis to be prepared for that challenge.

 

[barah_admi]

Seriously, India has won only 6 matches in England? I would have never known.. why is that? You would think even with their weak bowling, the co diction’s would have suited their medium pacers who rely on swing mostly.

Have you watched test cricket before 2007? India have had poor touring sides for most of their history and considering Pakistan have the best W/L ratio of any asian side ever, it is not difficult to understand why they are topping this list to.

Heck, this decade has probably produced India's best ever test sides and they still fail to be competitive outside of Asia.

 

[Stewie]

Could it be because Pakistani batsmen right from junior cricket days are exposed to high quality swing bowling? Bounce isn't a forte for Pakistan bowlers but they are very good in swinging the ball. I also think apart from a few (like Asif) Pakistan hasn't produced many great seam bowlers, hence their batsmen aren't exposed to much seam movement also. That is why their ability on seaming decks isn't as good as against swing. I guess pitches in Pakistan have historically been flat, so bowlers had to rely on genuine pace and swing/reverse swing to pick wickets.

In India's case the relative weakness against swing may be because of lack of exposure. Even seam movement exposure is less (but not that big a gap vs Pakistan like in case of swing) but may be Indian batsmen use their superior schooling and technique to counter it. Pace and bounce I think can be simulated easily in nets, so I guess Indians have worked more efficiently than the Pakistanis to be prepared for that challenge.

Nailed it!

That’s exactly what I was thinking myself. Our batsmen play good fast swing bowling at home so they are comparatively better equipped to handle it vs Indian batsmen.

But credit to indian batsmen they handle the Aussie bounce better than Pakistanis even though they are alien to bouncy pitches.. I have to admit most of their wins in Australia and SA are fairly recent when the pitches are becoming more homogenized than in the past..

 

[Stewie]

Have you watched test cricket before 2007? India have had poor touring sides for most of their history and considering Pakistan have the best W/L ratio of any asian side ever, it is not difficult to understand why they are topping this list to.

Heck, this decade has probably produced India's best ever test sides and they still fail to be competitive outside of Asia.

I was being facetious and sarcastic at the same time trying to prove my point to some Indian posters here..

 

[Monsee]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying but just a minor correction. It should read India (6 out of 50) and Pakistan (12 out of 53) in England post 1947. Not that it makes a difference but had to point out because England is one country apart from New Zealand where Pakistan have played more tests than India in these last 70 odd years. That is the point I was trying to make in another thread about low attendance (empty seats) for tomorrow's match.

My bad on the test played number swap, even then, 3 tests more in 70 odd years (for Pak) is hardly a measure to indicate Pakistan have played more tests in England than India; once India is done, the total played will be 2 more in favor of India within a few months in between of the two visiting there. Heck, if India had played before Pak this summer, they would have had more tests (played) to show for anyway.

In terms of tests won, despite playing less tests in most of the countries, basically Pak have been the more dominant in England and NZ by a country mile, having a much better win/loss ratio even in WI, and only marginally behind on the same ratio in Aus and SA.

India has no clear cut lead in any of the 5 countries in debate!

 

[Stewie]

My bad on the test played number swap, even then, 3 tests more in 70 odd years (for Pak) is hardly a measure to indicate Pakistan have played more tests in England than India; once India is done, the total played will be 2 more in favor of India within a few months in between of the two visiting there. Heck, if India had played before Pak this summer, they would have had more tests (played) to show for anyway.

In terms of tests won, despite playing less tests in most of the countries, basically Pak have been the more dominant in England and NZ by a country mile, having a much better win/loss ratio even in WI, and only marginally behind on the same ratio in Aus and SA.

India has no clear cut lead in any of the 5 countries in debate!

That doesn’t change the fact they have come leaps and bounds in recent years and are deservedly number one right now.. we need to develop a killer instinct in test and not squander leads or sessions.. case in point the recent England test series. We lost after winning at Lords.. I think that was a golden opportunity to win an away series against a quality opposition..

 

[Monsee]

That doesn’t change the fact they have come leaps and bounds in recent years and are deservedly number one right now.. we need to develop a killer instinct in test and not squander leads or sessions.. case in point the recent England test series. We lost after winning at Lords.. I think that was a golden opportunity to win an away series against a quality opposition..

Leaps and bounds, yes, but in tests at home mostly; with their team being number 1 and enjoying some of their best test form in history, one would expect them to win a test here and there (overseas) but they have not had much of a domination against teams like NZ or England, not even talking about the top two (Aus and NZ).

Our Headingly loss in this last series was purely 75-80% down to our decision to bat in conditions that usually always favor English bowlers and our batsmen have struggled there. Sarfraz was probably thinking very highly of himself and feeling over confident to have elected to bat first when all he had to do was look at the last 5 tests played there by us to know what to do after winning the toss i.e. not bat first for sure.

Our team is still very young and learning, most players having been in the team for 3 years or even much less with a few having made their test debuts in last 6-12 months, so they will be much better prepared in the future tours!

 

[Stewie]

Leaps and bounds, yes, but in tests at home mostly; with their team being number 1 and enjoying some of their best test form in history, one would expect them to win a test here and there (overseas) but they have not had much of a domination against teams like NZ or England, not even talking about the top two (Aus and NZ).

Our Headingly loss in this last series was purely 75-80% down to our decision to bat in conditions that usually always favor English bowlers and our batsmen have struggled there. Sarfraz was probably thinking very highly of himself and feeling over confident to have elected to bat first when all he had to do was look at the last 5 tests played there by us to know what to do after winning the toss i.e. not bat first for sure.

Our team is still very young and learning, most players having been in the team for 3 years or even much less with a few having made their test debuts in last 6-12 months, so they will be much better prepared in the future tours!

Their failures in eng and NZ aside, they do well in Australia.. we need to put up a better fight there and in SA as well. Yes they are number one mainly for playing at home but we need to improve and not look at others.. I guess you will always hold our own team to a higher standard and that’s what I am doing here .