Pakistan and the concept of Ummah

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Is this even relevant in today's age? How has it benefited or harmed Pakistan as a nation and what is the way forward?

Topic raised by request of @rickroll so let's hear some discussion.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ummah is always relevant because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said so. I know governments may not act that way but it exists on paper and also exists at people level.

Those who say Ummah is irrelvant are either apostates/murtads/non-Muslims or are poorly informed regarding Islam.

Some hadiths to support my argument:

“The believers, in their mutual love, mercy, and compassion, are like one body. When one limb suffers, the whole body responds with sleeplessness and fever.” - Sahih Muslim (2586)

"A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice. It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour." - Sahih Muslim 2564a

"Indeed Allah has angels who roam the earth and they convey to me the greetings (or prayers of peace) of my Ummah (nation)." - Hisn al-Muslim 222

 

[rickroll]

My strong stance is that this has been highly detrimental for Pakistan. There is no Ummah, it is countries behaving selfishly for themselves but Pakistanis (as a society, as a political entity, as an establishment) have a higher propensity to fall for Ummah brotherhood and end up fighting others' battles.

I feel this could be because of the history of Pakistan. Zia was instrumental in creating the Islamic identity of Pakistan. I believe this is when Pakistan changed to a constitutional Islamic Republic. This happened sometime in the 80s (or maybe late 70s?) which is almost 2 generations ago - one generation being 25 years. Thanks to Pakistan being tied to Islamic identity, Pakistanis have a higher propensity than most others to be influenced by Ummah brotherhood, open their meager resources for other nations in the hopes that this will be reciprocated. But time and again Pakistanis have been burned by this. I would say experience with Afghanistan is a prime example among others.

Happy to share more but this is a quick overview of my stance before I run into multiple work meetings today.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ummah is always relevant because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said so. I know governments may not act that way but it exists on paper and also exists at people level.

Those who say Ummah is irrelvant are either apostates/murtads/non-Muslims or are poorly informed regarding Islam.

Some hadiths to support my argument:

“The believers, in their mutual love, mercy, and compassion, are like one body. When one limb suffers, the whole body responds with sleeplessness and fever.” - Sahih Muslim (2586)

"A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice. It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour." - Sahih Muslim 2564a

"Indeed Allah has angels who roam the earth and they convey to me the greetings (or prayers of peace) of my Ummah (nation)." - Hisn al-Muslim 222

Another relevant hadith:

"A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection." - Sahih al-Bukhari 2442

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My strong stance is that this has been highly detrimental for Pakistan. There is no Ummah, it is countries behaving selfishly for themselves but Pakistanis (as a society, as a political entity, as an establishment) have a higher propensity to fall for Ummah brotherhood and end up fighting others' battles.

I feel this could be because of the history of Pakistan. Zia was instrumental in creating the Islamic identity of Pakistan. I believe this is when Pakistan changed to a constitutional Islamic Republic. This happened sometime in the 80s (or maybe late 70s?) which is almost 2 generations ago - one generation being 25 years. Thanks to Pakistan being tied to Islamic identity, Pakistanis have a higher propensity than most others to be influenced by Ummah brotherhood, open their meager resources for other nations in the hopes that this will be reciprocated. But time and again Pakistanis have been burned by this. I would say experience with Afghanistan is a prime example among others.

Happy to share more but this is a quick overview of my stance before I run into multiple work meetings today.

Do you believe Pakistanis are a mostly honest people who would not cheat to get ahead, or lie in order to make some extra money?

 

[HalBass9]

My strong stance is that this has been highly detrimental for Pakistan. There is no Ummah, it is countries behaving selfishly for themselves but Pakistanis (as a society, as a political entity, as an establishment) have a higher propensity to fall for Ummah brotherhood and end up fighting others' battles.

I feel this could be because of the history of Pakistan. Zia was instrumental in creating the Islamic identity of Pakistan. I believe this is when Pakistan changed to a constitutional Islamic Republic. This happened sometime in the 80s (or maybe late 70s?) which is almost 2 generations ago - one generation being 25 years. Thanks to Pakistan being tied to Islamic identity, Pakistanis have a higher propensity than most others to be influenced by Ummah brotherhood, open their meager resources for other nations in the hopes that this will be reciprocated. But time and again Pakistanis have been burned by this. I would say experience with Afghanistan is a prime example among others.

Happy to share more but this is a quick overview of my stance before I run into multiple work meetings today.

Do you really believe that’s why the decision makers are fighting others’ battles? Except for Palestine, where almost the entire Muslim world was involved in a 6 day war, Pakistan’s establishment often engages in conflicts to pursue its own strategic benefits. And to justify those interests, they rely on a supporting narrative, the idea of the “Ummah.”

 

[Mas-LFC]

Ummah is always relevant because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said so. I know governments may not act that way but it exists on paper and also exists at people level.

Those who say Ummah is irrelvant are either apostates/murtads/non-Muslims or are poorly informed regarding Islam.

Some hadiths to support my argument:

“The believers, in their mutual love, mercy, and compassion, are like one body. When one limb suffers, the whole body responds with sleeplessness and fever.” - Sahih Muslim (2586)

"A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice. It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour." - Sahih Muslim 2564a

"Indeed Allah has angels who roam the earth and they convey to me the greetings (or prayers of peace) of my Ummah (nation)." - Hisn al-Muslim 222

Well said Brother. Couldn’t have said it any better.

 

[rickroll]

Do you really believe that’s why the decision makers are fighting others’ battles? Except for Palestine, where almost the entire Muslim world was involved in a 6 day war, Pakistan’s establishment often engages in conflicts to pursue its own strategic benefits. And to justify those interests, they rely on a supporting narrative, the idea of the “Ummah.”

Do you believe Pakistanis are a mostly honest people who would not cheat to get ahead, or lie in order to make some extra money?

No, not all Pakistanis are honest people as it stands today. As with any developing nation, the poorer a country is, the higher the chances of people taking short cuts because resources are meager and evolutionary survival skills kick in.

The decision makers are fighting others' battles using the Ummah narrative as an excuse. In essence the Ummah narrative acts as a fuel to support the twisted interests of the corrupt establishment. Of course it is easy to say "if not this they will use some other reason" but I feel that is not a valid take because #1 - Pakistan being a 2 generational Islamic Republic, the masses are heavily brainwashed by the Ummah factor, and #2 - It is not good logic to eliminate a bad reason with the assumption that something else may crop up.

 

[rickroll]

Ummah is always relevant because Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said so. I know governments may not act that way but it exists on paper and also exists at people level.

Those who say Ummah is irrelvant are either apostates/murtads/non-Muslims or are poorly informed regarding Islam.

Some hadiths to support my argument:

“The believers, in their mutual love, mercy, and compassion, are like one body. When one limb suffers, the whole body responds with sleeplessness and fever.” - Sahih Muslim (2586)

"A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice. It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour." - Sahih Muslim 2564a

"Indeed Allah has angels who roam the earth and they convey to me the greetings (or prayers of peace) of my Ummah (nation)." - Hisn al-Muslim 222

This is an amazing on paper rule and it exists on paper as your post says. Problem with paper guidelines is that they are idealistic and do not reflect reality. How many Muslim countries are actually sticking to this standard when they are somehow asking Pakistan to do so?

Let's be honest here, are they (external Ummah brotherhood proclaimers) shoving this into Pakistanis in the true interests of an Ummah or with circumstantial selfish geopolitical interests in play and them coveting the geographic/military/population/nuclear-capability advantages that Pakistan can project and be someone else's pawn?

 

[rickroll]

All of us (Pakistanis of this forum) may know an Afghan/Bangladeshi or anyone else who you think is a good person and thus want an Ummah brotherhood as a result of that personal bias. But nation states and long term geopolitics do not work that way and in a 1-1 basis become a zero sum game.

Below are all instances coming to the top of my mind when Pakistan was backstabbed

1. The Afghan-Soviet War (1979–1989): Under General Zia-ul-Haq, Pakistan was heavily influenced by Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states to frame the resistance against the USSR as a "Jihad" for the Ummah.

The Betrayal: While successful in ousting the Soviets, Pakistan was left to handle millions of refugees and a "Kalashnikov culture" alone. After 1989, many donor countries withdrew, leaving Pakistan with a fractured border and a rise in domestic extremism.

2. Afghanistan: 1989 - Present: Pakistan supported the Taliban, gave countless aid, took in refugees, shared whatever meager resources that Pakistan had ... all in the name of convincing the masses with the Ummah brotherhood koolaid. Imagine the Billions of $$ of Pakistani resources lost here.

The Betrayal: What has Afghanistan ever done for Pakistan? Despite decades of sucking Pakistan's resources dry, Afghanistan to this day does not respect Durand line, claims Pakistan lands, funds TTP for covert attacks, Statements about direct attacks on Pakistan, and is becoming buddies with India (!!!).

3. The Kashmir Issue: Pakistan has consistently framed Kashmir as an Ummah-wide issue of Muslim self-determination.

The Betrayal: On numerous occasions, major Muslim powers (specifically the UAE and Saudi Arabia) have prioritized their multi-billion dollar trade relationships with India over the Ummah's stance on Kashmir. A notable instance was the muted response from the OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation) regarding the 2019 revocation of Article 370. Where did the Ummah brotherhood go here?

4. The Yemen Conflict (2015): Saudi Arabia requested Pakistani troops to join the coalition against Houthi rebels, framing it as a duty to protect the "Holy Cities."

The Betrayal: Pakistan’s Parliament voted for neutrality. In response, UAE ministers issued rare, harshly worded public threats regarding the "heavy price" Pakistan would pay for its "ambiguous" stand.

5. The 1974 Islamic Summit (Lahore): Zulfikar Ali Bhutto positioned Pakistan as the "heart" of the Muslim world, seeking to use the Ummah's oil wealth as a counterweight to Western influence.

The Betrayal: Despite the rhetoric of a "Muslim Bloc," when Pakistan faced extreme economic crises or wars (like 1971), the actual military or "game-changing" economic support from the wider Ummah was often limited to high-interest loans rather than the unified strategic defense promised by the Ummah ideal.

6. The Kuala Lumpur Summit (2019): Pakistan, Turkey, and Malaysia planned a summit to address Islamophobia and create a new direction for the Ummah.

The Betrayal: Under intense pressure and the threat of withdrawing central bank deposits from Gulf allies, Pakistan pulled out of the summit at the last minute, which was seen domestically as a humiliating betrayal of sovereign foreign policy.

These are just the initial few and I do not want to add more and make things too long since some of y'all do not want to read longer posts. You can add situations like Pakistan having no relationship with Israel in wanting to respect Ummah brotherhood (and facing loss of trade, aid etc from western nations) while the "Ummah brothers" in gulf states, Egypt etc happily have working relationships with Israel.

Notice in all these situations when other countries want Pakistan to do something they start with "ummah brotherhood" and then twist the arm. But when Pakistan is in need these same Ummah brothers are nowhere to be found.

Pakistan is a poor country without the blessings of natural resources. Why should Pakistan always do other people's biddings? Why is it considered wrong and Pakistanis get emotionally blackmailed by faith when nobody else has to live by these standards?

All of you supporting for Ummah brotherhood - y'all live outside of Pakistan I assume? Have you spoken with educated Pakistanis living in Pakistan and asked their opinions given the ground realities they have to face living in Pakistan? I have and let me tell you - their lives and Pakistan's standards as a whole will be better if Pakistan can prioritize itself first.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The concept of Ummah flows through the veins of every Muslim. It is one of those things that is debates endlessly online but those debates are often abstract and distant from the ground realities.

The argument that Pakistan is in the state it is because it prioritised others is a similar argument to Pakistan has lots of talent in cricket but the board misuses it. Its a coping mechanism. The Ummah concept has helped our people tremendously. Whether others abide by it is irrelevant. The ONLY thing that even slightly binds Pakistan to countries like Saudi, or India, or Malaysia or Turkey is Ummah. We don't have much else to offer at the moment. Yet our ties are close.

 

[Varun]

Out of four countries, the only one Pakistan doesn't have a problem with is the one that has stamped out religion from its populace. It even had a skirmish with Iran in the last year.

Then of course we remember how East Pakistanis were treated leading them to say no thanks.

If there is an Ummah, Pakistan is the last person to claim so.

 

[sweep_shot]

The concept of Ummah flows through the veins of every Muslim. It is one of those things that is debates endlessly online but those debates are often abstract and distant from the ground realities.

The argument that Pakistan is in the state it is because it prioritised others is a similar argument to Pakistan has lots of talent in cricket but the board misuses it. Its a coping mechanism. The Ummah concept has helped our people tremendously. Whether others abide by it is irrelevant. The ONLY thing that even slightly binds Pakistan to countries like Saudi, or India, or Malaysia or Turkey is Ummah. We don't have much else to offer at the moment. Yet our ties are close.

Correct.

When it comes to these matters, it is not about what any of us thinks. It is about what the Quran and Sunnah says.

When it comes to religious matters, we have to check the original sources. For us, these are the Quran and Hadiths.

 

[Suleiman]

Also, since when did Pakistan become the champion of the Ummah? When did this illusion arise?, the same country whose leaders were in bed with goray so they decided to dirty their hands in Afghanistan due to greed and paranoia and just a decade or two prior to that scheme tried to commit mass genocide in its Eastern counterpart… that same country is now the yardstick to measure or test the validity of the concept of an Ummah prescribed by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the Quran?

Ofc If you’re Muslim, if the Quran / Sunnah prescribes something then that’s the end of the story. There’s no deflecting to “oh but is secularism superior because my professor Dawson says so??”.

 

[Suleiman]

Pretty much any and all Muslim countries that exist today exist because this concept was applied in some way shape or form during any Khilafah in history.

It’s cool for them to adopt a congressional or parliamentary system in this day and age where international borders (usually) mean something- but I wonder how or if they would’ve even come into existence if the concept of a united Ummah wasn’t applied at one point or another in the last 1400 years

 

[Varun]

Also, since when did Pakistan become the champion of the Ummah? When did this illusion arise?, the same country whose leaders were in bed with goray so they decided to dirty their hands in Afghanistan due to greed and paranoia and just a decade or two prior to that scheme tried to commit mass genocide in its Eastern counterpart… that same country is now the yardstick to measure or test the validity of the concept of an Ummah prescribed by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the Quran?

Ofc If you’re Muslim, if the Quran / Sunnah prescribes something then that’s the end of the story. There’s no deflecting to “oh but is secularism superior because my professor Dawson says so??”.

100%

Saudi Arabia or Iran are the countries that can say the word Ummah with a straight face.

Quite a way to go for that though, as Saudi/UAE at the current time don't even give visas easily to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, don't allow their citizens to marry Pakistanis and Bangladeshis etc.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Ummat is one concept in Islamic brotherhood that makes me respect them from the bottom of my heart and at times even compelled me to renounce my faith to join this brotherhood. But as Sully bhai pointed out, unfortunately this notion now only exists in the hearts of good men like @sweep_shot but the reality is that its every country pursuing its own vested interests and there are even deeper sectarian divisions that dont allow the concept of Ummat to be practiced by all.

But i assure you, you're not alone in this. We have Sanatani brothers in Nepal who tried to extort money from us by threatenign to go in the Godless China camp. We always deal with the same problems. There is pain in our heart also. The only difference is that whereas muslims can get consolation and a shoulder to cry on in many countries, we Hindus are isolated and cannot share our sorrow with many. Even if we shared it in moments of emotional vulnerability, our audience only laughs at us behind our backs and calls us pajeets.

 

[Suleiman]

100%

Saudi Arabia or Iran are the countries that can say the word Ummah with a straight face.

Quite a way to go for that though, as Saudi/UAE at the current time don't even give visas easily to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, don't allow their citizens to marry Pakistanis and Bangladeshis etc.

Ironically enough the country that actually embodies the concept of an Ummah as sad it is to say is… Israel.

United by them being Jewish. You can be American, Indian, European, Chinese, Iraqi whatever else, you can get citizenship purely because you are Jewish even if you have never set foot there in your life nor did your forefathers for centuries and centuries

There’s Americans willing to betray America because they’re Jewish and have loyalty to Israel.

Even pre 2023, if a Muslim in Asia wanted citizenship in Palestine, it wouldn’t have been straightforward, and who knows if they would even get it.

The concept of Ummah isn’t the issue. It’s the fact that Muslims esp those in power have abandoned it for at least a 100 years, but honestly longer than that. Muslims with weak faith think that overnight it can be implemented and if they don’t see living standards improve the next day then it’s all just theory, while those in power have sold out caring about their Muslims brothers and sisters to fill their coffers even if it means turning the other way from what’s happening with the Uyghurs, Sudanese, Filisitnis.

 

[Red-Indian]

I suppose the Ummah for most Muslims is a concept like 'world peace' and 'universal brotherhood' for the rest of us. You can always say you believe in it...after all who can say they don't believe in world peace...but has no relevance in day to day life.

After all, for 1500 years since the assassination of Ali, the Muslims (like all humans) have clearly and repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to fight other Muslims for the usual reasons - power, wealth, nationalism etc.

I would liken the few true believers in the Ummah concept to the hippies in the West. Idealists who are happy to live in their bubble and ignore the real world. More joy to them, I suppose!

 

[emranabbas]

There is no such thing as one Ummah in today’s world. Every country only looks after its own interests. That is how the modern world works, and that is how countries survive.

Muslims have been fighting each other for past 1500 years this is nothing new. Just look at the Arab world, conflicts have always existed.

No one is truly following the idea of one Ummah that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) taught.

Today, the idea of one united Ummah is mostly pushed by Hindu converted muslim in the subcontinent with the idea of uniting under one umbrella and taking over the world.

 

[emranabbas]

I suppose the Ummah for most Muslims is a concept like 'world peace' and 'universal brotherhood' for the rest of us. You can always say you believe in it...after all who can say they don't believe in world peace...but has no relevance in day to day life.

After all, for 1500 years since the assassination of Ali, the Muslims (like all humans) have clearly and repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to fight other Muslims for the usual reasons - power, wealth, nationalism etc.

I would liken the few true believers in the Ummah concept to the hippies in the West. Idealists who are happy to live in their bubble and ignore the real world. More joy to them, I suppose!

Just read your post now and I think its spot on similar to what I posted.

 

[JaDed]

Ironically enough the country that actually embodies the concept of an Ummah as sad it is to say is… Israel.

United by them being Jewish. You can be American, Indian, European, Chinese, Iraqi whatever else, you can get citizenship purely because you are Jewish even if you have never set foot there in your life nor did your forefathers for centuries and centuries

There’s Americans willing to betray America because they’re Jewish and have loyalty to Israel.

Even pre 2023, if a Muslim in Asia wanted citizenship in Palestine, it wouldn’t have been straightforward, and who knows if they would even get it.

The concept of Ummah isn’t the issue. It’s the fact that Muslims esp those in power have abandoned it for at least a 100 years, but honestly longer than that. Muslims with weak faith think that overnight it can be implemented and if they don’t see living standards improve the next day then it’s all just theory, while those in power have sold out caring about their Muslims brothers and sisters to fill their coffers even if it means turning the other way from what’s happening with the Uyghurs, Sudanese, Filisitnis.

Zionist yes.. I came to post this here too that concept of brotherhood is strongest among Jews.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Ironically enough the country that actually embodies the concept of an Ummah as sad it is to say is… Israel.

United by them being Jewish. You can be American, Indian, European, Chinese, Iraqi whatever else, you can get citizenship purely because you are Jewish even if you have never set foot there in your life nor did your forefathers for centuries and centuries

There’s Americans willing to betray America because they’re Jewish and have loyalty to Israel.

Even pre 2023, if a Muslim in Asia wanted citizenship in Palestine, it wouldn’t have been straightforward, and who knows if they would even get it.

The concept of Ummah isn’t the issue. It’s the fact that Muslims esp those in power have abandoned it for at least a 100 years, but honestly longer than that. Muslims with weak faith think that overnight it can be implemented and if they don’t see living standards improve the next day then it’s all just theory, while those in power have sold out caring about their Muslims brothers and sisters to fill their coffers even if it means turning the other way from what’s happening with the Uyghurs, Sudanese, Filisitnis.

Its a different topic but i don't understand why Ummah only means that every Asian muslim will stand up for Palestine when the fact is that Arabs do little for Asian muslims and even consider them low class. I have met many Palestinians in Israel, Jordan and other places and i found them to be very odd and self centric people, not very courteous either. Rather the Israelis were kind. Especially when i would tell them that i am from India their eyes would light up.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

There is no such thing as one Ummah in today’s world. Every country only looks after its own interests. That is how the modern world works, and that is how countries survive.

Muslims have been fighting each other for past 1500 years this is nothing new. Just look at the Arab world, conflicts have always existed.

No one is truly following the idea of one Ummah that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) taught.

Today, the idea of one united Ummah is mostly pushed by Hindu converted muslim in the subcontinent with the idea of uniting under one umbrella and taking over the world.

If you want to identify by your country or ethnicity then yes.
going against our religion because some "enlightened new minds" thinking it's 21st century isn't a credible reason.
While you're at it, you are welcome to go into some another religion as well.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Well when the majority of Muslim world isn't being governed by Islamic law and way, how can you expect it to be in congruence with your faith.
The thing is, Muslims should believe religion to be their identity rather than ethnicity or country.
First learn to follow the religion properly, if enough people start do that, the brotherhood will come back as well.

 

[Red-Indian]

Zionist yes.. I came to post this here too that concept of brotherhood is strongest among Jews.

They had to go through centuries of persecution and a catastrophe to get there. So it's dearly bought.

Give it a generation or two though and it'll disintegrate. The holocaust generation is gone. Once the generation that heard directly from the survivors of the holocaust is also gone - it'll be "what do I have in common with a Jew from the other side of the world."

 

[JaDed]

They had to go through centuries of persecution and a catastrophe to get there. So it's dearly bought.

Give it a generation or two though and it'll disintegrate. The holocaust generation is gone. Once the generation that heard directly from the survivors of the holocaust is also gone - it'll be "what do I have in common with a Jew from the other side of the world."

I agree on how that brotherhood came about but you underestimate the Jewish brotherhood, there is a reason why they were being persecuted in the first place.(insecurity and irrational yes).

There is a huge history of how Jewish brotherhood set its roots across from start of Tzedakah(charity funds) , Sephardic from 15th century - American one(20th century) to today Zionism etc etc

In US they have Jewish schools , they even have “modern” rabbis.. they are rational and intelligent but majority of them are still part of a community.