Pakistan, China air forces start joint exercise Shaheen VIII

[MenInG]

BEIJING: The air forces of Pakistan and China began joint exercise ‘Shaheen-VIII’ in a location in northwest China.

The annual joint training is the eighth of its kind between the two countries since it was first launched in March 201, according to the Chinese media here on Saturday.

The joint training does not target any third party and aims to improve training standards of the two air forces through mutual learning, the sources said.

This joint training will help enhance close relations between the two countries in general and develop a mechanism for interoperability of both air forces in particular.

Last year, the joint training between the air forces of all-weather friends was held in Pakistan which was participated by a contingent of the Chinese air force, comprising combat pilots, air defence controllers, and technical ground crew along with fighter jets, bombers and early warning AWACS planes.

The joint exercise is conducted each year in both countries on an alternate basis.

The Chinese air force contingent participated in ‘Shaheen-VII’, which was held in Pakistan last year.


https://www.geo.tv/latest/245710-pakistan-china

 

[the Great Khan]

the fruits of such excercises were quite clear on the 27th of feb

 

[Asim_khan]

"The joint training does not target any third party and aims to improve training standards of the two air forces through mutual learning"

Reading between the lines, they literally don't consider India as any competition at all. How embarrassing

 

[Varun]

Reading between the lines, they literally don't consider India as any competition at all. How embarrassing

Why would they? Give the IAF 10 years without any fresh procurements and they'll crash half of the squadrons out there.

 

[Icon]

"The joint training does not target any third party and aims to improve training standards of the two air forces through mutual learning"

Reading between the lines, they literally don't consider India as any competition at all. How embarrassing

IAF is running on flying coffins. 11 crashed just this year and we still have 4 months left.

 

[Pakpak]

Why would they? Give the IAF 10 years without any fresh procurements and they'll crash half of the squadrons out there.

I read that out of 800 MIGs the IAF lost 400....all due to crashes.

How on earth are people not getting sacked for this level of staggering incompetence?

 

[Varun]

I read that out of 800 MIGs the IAF lost 400....all due to crashes.

How on earth are people not getting sacked for this level of staggering incompetence?

417 out of 840 have crashed, to be specific. Killing pilots, civilians on the ground, and of course losing the plane. Go figure.

 

[Asim_khan]

417 out of 840 have crashed, to be specific. Killing pilots, civilians on the ground, and of course losing the plane. Go figure.

Do we have any stats on the number of downed Indian su-30's, maybe they will help ascertain whether it's machine error or human.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Su-30, J-16, J-10C, JH-7A, and AWACS from PLAAF.
JF-17, Mirages, F7, AWACS from PAF.

 

[Pete Rose]

the fruits of such excercises were quite clear on the 27th of feb

Want the j11, having said that if the su30mki was truly brought down, then the conventional wisdom of quantitative superiority by India seems outdated.

 

[Pete Rose]

Why would they? Give the IAF 10 years without any fresh procurements and they'll crash half of the squadrons out there.

The su30mki is on spec a better plane than the f16. I don’t blv what the poster says up there.

 

[Varun]

The su30mki is on spec a better plane than the f16. I don’t blv what the poster says up there.

Also depends on the bonzos at HAL Nashik and the pilots who fly it. Prior to receiving the Su-30MKI, Russia gave us interim Su-27s, Su-30s, and Su30Ks until we started production of the MKI 2002 onwards.

We initially had an enviable accident-free record of the type between 2002 and 2009, then sticking to type, have managed to crash 10 planes in 10 years with several of them attributable to pilot error.

And don't get me started on the serviceability rates - but that's also partly the fault of the inept Russians.

 

[Realromeo]

Why would they? Give the IAF 10 years without any fresh procurements and they'll crash half of the squadrons out there.

IAF trains the most and puts in the most hours of work. IAF is expected to be ready for two fronts war at anytime. So combination of outdated weapons, poor maintenance teams(no on really cares about the guys who maintains these planes) and over worked machines = deaths. The IAF is some what okay with this, IAF strongly belives that we must be ready for combat at anytime. Lives aren't a big deal in the Indian military or in India in general as long as the media doesn't find about it. Unless the AirForce invests in 25X more in newer toys these crashes will happen.

 

[Pete Rose]

"The joint training does not target any third party and aims to improve training standards of the two air forces through mutual learning"

Reading between the lines, they literally don't consider India as any competition at all. How embarrassing

The first means to lose any skirmish is to not respect your enemy

 

[the Great Khan]

Want the j11, having said that if the su30mki was truly brought down, then the conventional wisdom of quantitative superiority by India seems outdated.

no thanks. Im happy with the F16 and the JF17 for now. I want our next ac to be a stealth aircraft..

we need to worry about the Rapha. Unfortunately russian jets have a very very poor success rate in actual combat. Their missiles are also unreliable and their resistance to jamming has to be questioned.

 

[Pete Rose]

no thanks. Im happy with the F16 and the JF17 for now. I want our next ac to be a stealth aircraft..

we need to worry about the Rapha. Unfortunately russian jets have a very very poor success rate in actual combat. Their missiles are also unreliable and their resistance to jamming has to be questioned.

We'll see once we move to Block III on the JF17. The f16 is sort of timeless like the f15 (of course f15 is top dog), but ultimately the whole thing works together as a package. One needs to have some level of comfort that current combination JF17 (post block 3 induction, which I guess is three years away), mirage and f16 is sufficient to counter the IAF platform (barring the rafales). Then its a question of whether you move to stealth before or after India.

 

[the Great Khan]

We'll see once we move to Block III on the JF17. The f16 is sort of timeless like the f15 (of course f15 is top dog), but ultimately the whole thing works together as a package. One needs to have some level of comfort that current combination JF17 (post block 3 induction, which I guess is three years away), mirage and f16 is sufficient to counter the IAF platform (barring the rafales). Then its a question of whether you move to stealth before or after India.

good questions/observations..

The block 3 is ready. Its just a matter of when we induct and how quickly. They are just going through final testing

Once we get it, we will also begin to upgrade the older Block1 model.

The key area for concern for us is the Mirage. They are getting very old but serve a particular strike purpose.

Our overall package is now tested in combat and we can look improve it. We will need to look at the f16 and what we plan to do with them..

 

[PakLFC]

Good! With the situation at the LOC we can not afford to relax. It is not if but when will the decisive war start. Yes folks as everyone here knows I believe in Ghazwa-e-Hind as foretold by Nabi(saw).

 

[Syed1]

We'll see once we move to Block III on the JF17. The f16 is sort of timeless like the f15 (of course f15 is top dog), but ultimately the whole thing works together as a package. One needs to have some level of comfort that current combination JF17 (post block 3 induction, which I guess is three years away), mirage and f16 is sufficient to counter the IAF platform (barring the rafales). Then its a question of whether you move to stealth before or after India.

Block 3 is expected to revealed anytime from Nov this year or early next year. I think it will be unveiled on Pakistan Day 2020. It is a very advanced jet with AESA radar, head mounted display amongst other improvements which put it in 4+ gen category.

As for Rafales, India gets its first jet in Sept and I read somewhere from Indian sources themselves that pilot training on the jet will really start once they get it, so first few Rafales will be operational sometime May next year.

As for countering the Rafale, I will be in favour of Pak acquiring the J-16 from China.

On the stealth fighter front, Pakistan initiated work on an indigenous fifth gen fighter about 2-3 years ago. Search up Project AZM. However, as per PAF's own admission it'll be a decade or more before we even see a working prototype. PAF's target is 2030. The goal is to have completely home grown jet, but obviously it will have some design input from China, Turkey amongst others.

 

[Syed1]

good questions/observations..

The block 3 is ready. Its just a matter of when we induct and how quickly. They are just going through final testing

Once we get it, we will also begin to upgrade the older Block1 model.

The key area for concern for us is the Mirage. They are getting very old but serve a particular strike purpose.

Our overall package is now tested in combat and we can look improve it. We will need to look at the f16 and what we plan to do with them..

Mirages are still the fastest jet we have... they can achieve Mach 2+ and still are our primary strike aircraft for deep strike. They were also used to bomb Indian locations on 27th Feb. Here is a trailer from upcoming PAF documentary showing the actual jets going to carry out the mission. Notice the sudden and rapid acceleration, from being right next to us to mere specs on the screen in a few seconds.

Look Modi they even have cloud cover to avoid radar

 

[Lonewarrior]

We'll see once we move to Block III on the JF17. The f16 is sort of timeless like the f15 (of course f15 is top dog), but ultimately the whole thing works together as a package. One needs to have some level of comfort that current combination JF17 (post block 3 induction, which I guess is three years away), mirage and f16 is sufficient to counter the IAF platform (barring the rafales). Then its a question of whether you move to stealth before or after India.

good questions/observations..

The block 3 is ready. Its just a matter of when we induct and how quickly. They are just going through final testing

Once we get it, we will also begin to upgrade the older Block1 model.

The key area for concern for us is the Mirage. They are getting very old but serve a particular strike purpose.

Our overall package is now tested in combat and we can look improve it. We will need to look at the f16 and what we plan to do with them..

Block 3 is expected to revealed anytime from Nov this year or early next year. I think it will be unveiled on Pakistan Day 2020. It is a very advanced jet with AESA radar, head mounted display amongst other improvements which put it in 4+ gen category.

As for Rafales, India gets its first jet in Sept and I read somewhere from Indian sources themselves that pilot training on the jet will really start once they get it, so first few Rafales will be operational sometime May next year.

As for countering the Rafale, I will be in favour of Pak acquiring the J-16 from China.

On the stealth fighter front, Pakistan initiated work on an indigenous fifth gen fighter about 2-3 years ago. Search up Project AZM. However, as per PAF's own admission it'll be a decade or more before we even see a working prototype. PAF's target is 2030. The goal is to have completely home grown jet, but obviously it will have some design input from China, Turkey amongst others.

Mirages are still the fastest jet we have... they can achieve Mach 2+ and still are our primary strike aircraft for deep strike. They were also used to bomb Indian locations on 27th Feb. Here is a trailer from upcoming PAF documentary showing the actual jets going to carry out the mission. Notice the sudden and rapid acceleration, from being right next to us to mere specs on the screen in a few seconds.

Look Modi they even have cloud cover to avoid radar

i am still not comfortable having old Mirages and i know the current Mirage fleet serve the purpose very well, but PAF should look into some used Mirage 2000s ...
also i still dont get why we only going to produce only 200 JF-17 and thn stop its production, why not 300+ ?
also whats after f-16s ? and the stopgap ?
we surely cant produce 5th gen fighter in big numbers even after decade, so we need more 4+ Gen fighters.

 

[Suleiman]

If we can exercise and be “Bros before hoes” with China, then why not Israel?

We have nothing against China’s concentration camps for Muslims, so then why distance ourself from Israel?

Some of these Chinese businessmen who come to Pakistan also part take in a lot of beghairti so it’s not like it is a land of saints.

 

[Pete Rose]

i am still not comfortable having old Mirages and i know the current Mirage fleet serve the purpose very well, but PAF should look into some used Mirage 2000s ...
also i still dont get why we only going to produce only 200 JF-17 and thn stop its production, why not 300+ ?
also whats after f-16s ? and the stopgap ?
we surely cant produce 5th gen fighter in big numbers even after decade, so we need more 4+ Gen fighters.

Starting with caveat that I am not an expert on this, the logic of all modern armaments seems to be about having a single platform off which to innovate. But within that platform, there is use for all planes, not every plane serves the same person. If you’ve read kaiser tufail’s write up of 27th feb talks about the use of mirages, if17’s, and f16’s. Each of those planes served a purpose (excluding the jamming being done high above). Eventually mirages will be phased out I suspect.
You raise interesting questions and a lot of them have to do with our budget. The prevailing view is we will keep trying to buy f16s either from the US or third party. Most of the innovation will continue to happen on jf17’s

 

[Pete Rose]

good questions/observations..

The block 3 is ready. Its just a matter of when we induct and how quickly. They are just going through final testing

Once we get it, we will also begin to upgrade the older Block1 model.

The key area for concern for us is the Mirage. They are getting very old but serve a particular strike purpose.

Our overall package is now tested in combat and we can look improve it. We will need to look at the f16 and what we plan to do with them..

Recall reading Pakistan has capacity to product somewhere from 12 to 20 block III’s a year. There was also some talk of testing some element of stealth on the JF17. Basically it’s a program that originated from China; it’s not true stealth but a bolt on method of reducing the plane footprint on radar.
If Pakistan gets back on track economically I suspect we will see more investment on mid air refueling and long range planes.