"Pakistan has suffered enough fighting US's war" : Imran Khan responds to Donald Trump [Post #43]

[Zahid87]

Which resident Afghans are you referring to? Resident in Pakistan? Afghanistan? Or on this site?

As for US being a foreign oppressor, I am not sure that is how I would describe them, the only thing they are is a very long way from the US, and it appears they aren't going back home in a hurry so I assume they have some deep investment there, which is backed by military force. Beats me why people whine about Pakistan military presence on their own border, yet they see nothing wrong with armies from the other side of the world setting up camp in Afghanistan.

I was referring to the ones on the site - you can ask the ones from wherever you want though...Afghanistan, Pakistan, the UK, the US, wherever....

Not sure what relevance the US being far away from home has...was that not clear from the outset? Is that the problem with their presence in Afghanistan?

Coming back to the point...question comes back to trying to take the moral high ground. I don't think any party really can...and Trump's comments...not wholly inaccurate.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I was referring to the ones on the site - you can ask the ones from wherever you want though...Afghanistan, Pakistan, the UK, the US, wherever....

Not sure what relevance the US being far away from home has...was that not clear from the outset? Is that the problem with their presence in Afghanistan?

Coming back to the point...question comes back to trying to take the moral high ground. I don't think any party really can...and Trump's comments...not wholly inaccurate.

Afghans on a Pakistani site aren't necessarily representative of 'the general Afghan' any more than you are representative of the 'general Indian/Pakistani'.

 

[enkidu_]

I was referring to the ones on the site - you can ask the ones from wherever you want though...Afghanistan, Pakistan, the UK, the US, wherever....

Not sure what relevance the US being far away from home has...was that not clear from the outset? Is that the problem with their presence in Afghanistan?

Coming back to the point...question comes back to trying to take the moral high ground. I don't think any party really can...and Trump's comments...not wholly inaccurate.

Pakistan has been supporting the Islamist brand of Pashtuns since ethnic Pashtun General Babar's advice to Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto on how to shut Daud Khan's secular Pashtun nationalism, keeping in mind that, as if not recognizing the new nation-State wasn't enough, under Daud you had Afghans troops storming into the Bajaur agency in 60/61, before being kicked out by the local tribals, and during his whole term the Pashtunistan propaganda was getting hyperbolic.

So basically Pakistan's interest in Afghanistan is due to the geography as much as ethnicity. Perhaps in another world instead of some 40 million Pashtuns there would have been Biharis and yeah but that's now how it is. Pakistan is not interfering in Somalia or Mongolia for a reason.

The Afghan jihad epic is well known, but many countries had their own sides during the civil war (Iran supporting the Hazara's, Turkey the Uzbek's, etc) and if Pakistan "won" it's because the Pashtuns have historically dominated (who said bullied ?) the other ethnic groups - in a fantasy world, if the Uzbeks had won, general Rostom would have continued his raping spree of Pashtun women on a larger scale, and the same who moan about Pakistan supporting the Haqqani network (which btw is more or less a meme) would have cried on why Pakistan and its "Pashtun brothers" didn't stand up with their cousins on the other side of the Durand. Btw on how much Pakistan "controls" the Talibans it's interesting to note that in the late 90s a Taliban delegation discussed of the Durand line with Pak officials.

In fact, what did Pakistan ever get there ? Afghanistan's minerals ? Or refugees and drugs ?

 

[topspin]

Read post 50

Thank you but it doesn't answer my questions such as:

1. Why have they yet to disclose the moments of his capture?
2. Why did they dump him into some ocean?
3. Why isn't there even a picture of his body?

I don't see how this is any different to a teacher giving homework to a student who turns up without submitting it because their dog ate it.

I neither accept or deny the so called capture of "OBL" especially when he was reported dead some years before this allegedly happened in Pakistan.

 

[IMMY69]

Thank you but it doesn't answer my questions such as:

1. Why have they yet to disclose the moments of his capture?
2. Why did they dump him into some ocean?
3. Why isn't there even a picture of his body?

I don't see how this is any different to a teacher giving homework to a student who turns up without submitting it because their dog ate it.

I neither accept or deny the so called capture of "OBL" especially when he was reported dead some years before this allegedly happened in Pakistan.

The whole thing is suspicious but in the absence of hard evidence (either way) the best way to answer Trump and his Indian friends is by referring them to the head of us military operations.

 

[tonmoy]

Thank you but it doesn't answer my questions such as:

1. Why have they yet to disclose the moments of his capture?
2. Why did they dump him into some ocean?
3. Why isn't there even a picture of his body?

I don't see how this is any different to a teacher giving homework to a student who turns up without submitting it because their dog ate it.

I neither accept or deny the so called capture of "OBL" especially when he was reported dead some years before this allegedly happened in Pakistan.

I think all the above has already been explained.

1/ It wasn't a capture, it was a headshot. Too graphic to share was the explanation at the time.
2/ They did not want his grave to turn into a shrine (Something like Mumtaz Qadri)
3/ Same as 1... you are always free to believe in conspiracy theories.. Doesn't change the fact.

 

[slipcatch]

I think all the above has already been explained.

1/ It wasn't a capture, it was a headshot. Too graphic to share was the explanation at the time.
2/ They did not want his grave to turn into a shrine (Something like Mumtaz Qadri)
3/ Same as 1... you are always free to believe in conspiracy theories.. Doesn't change the fact.

I thought you promoted to not believe anything without asking question or evidence.

 

[gazza619]

[MENTION=138952]tonmoy[/MENTION], you need to back evidence with proper references. Do not insult any religion based on your fantasies. Or consider being permanently banned.

 

[tonmoy]

[MENTION=138952]tonmoy[/MENTION], you need to back evidence with proper references. Do not insult any religion based on your fantasies. Or consider being permanently banned.

Mumtaz Qadri's grave has been turned into a shrine (I already mentioned that). Do you deny that as evidence?

Imran Khan himself said "Taliban's now are stronger than ever".. Al-Qaeda are composed of talibans.. and Taliban government always maintained that they want to protect him... So of-course they will be turn his grave into a shrine.

 

[Hitman]

Does anyone need any further proof after this?

https://www.thestreet.com/story/11109354/1/al-qaeda-confirms-bin-ladens-death.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-13313201

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Does anyone need any further proof after this?

https://www.thestreet.com/story/11109354/1/al-qaeda-confirms-bin-ladens-death.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-13313201

I wouldn't accept the word of Al Qaeda as gospel, they themselves are considered by most right thinking Muslims as evil liars. Real proof would just require a body. No one ever questioned the death of Gaddafi or Saddam. All this nonsense about graves being turned into shrines, and quotes from shadowy groups are not scientific proof which you would expect atheists and rational supporters of modern science to demand.

 

[Hitman]

I wouldn't accept the word of Al Qaeda as gospel, they themselves are considered by most right thinking Muslims as evil liars. Real proof would just require a body. No one ever questioned the death of Gaddafi or Saddam. All this nonsense about graves being turned into shrines, and quotes from shadowy groups are not scientific proof which you would expect atheists and rational supporters of modern science to demand.

And what about the man's own son? Is he a liar as well?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...r-fbi-agent-ali-soufan-pakistan-a7736066.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-mother-warns-vengeful-son-hamza-not-follow/

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And what about the man's own son? Is he a liar as well?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...r-fbi-agent-ali-soufan-pakistan-a7736066.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-mother-warns-vengeful-son-hamza-not-follow/

Is he not Al Qaeda?

 

[Lonewarrior]

LOL @ US

 

[the Great Khan]

See, I can live with that. So long as everyone is forthcoming with reality.

As I said in another post, what I can't live with is the perception the Army (and by extension, the state) is a wronged, innocent angel in this whole scenario, and is coming to save and support our poor Afghan brothers.

I think we can both agree on this position. The PA knew exactly what it was doing becasue they understood the eventual trajectory the WOT was going in. You have to understand the basic security reality the PA considers as part of its founding pillars. And that is that we are always on the backfoot with regards to our immediate neighbour. It produces a security paranoia that has at times held us in good stead and other times in bad. But this is the reality. It is an insecurity that is deeply ingrained due to the tragedy of aprtition and then the kashmir war of 1948. Everything stems from there.

Hence when the US betrayed us in the 90's and then they came again ten years later, the insecurity aspect of the PA and pakistani society in general was activated. We "knew" they would eventually betray us because they werent coming for AQ, they were coming for our nukes. Now you can believe it or not, that's essentially irrelevant. The PA believes it, and certain events have confirmed their belief. Hence the need to ensure a backup. That is why we will never reach a 100% understanding with the US. It just cant happen. Their interests are diametrically opposed to ours, other than where we both benefit. Not too dissimilar to the dynamic with the Hindus before partition. It is the same mentality.

Therefore in conclusion, the security apparatus within Pakistan made a calculated choice. Support the US so they don't bomb us and we can minimise their penetration against our nukes, while at the same time hedge our bets because they will betray us. And arguably they were proven right. Or if you want to really mess with your brain, was it a self fulfilling prophecy? Personally I believe it wasn't but many can dispute that.

 

[the Great Khan]

I think all the above has already been explained.

1/ It wasn't a capture, it was a headshot. Too graphic to share was the explanation at the time.
2/ They did not want his grave to turn into a shrine (Something like Mumtaz Qadri)
3/ Same as 1... you are always free to believe in conspiracy theories.. Doesn't change the fact.

yes but it doesnt make sense. We saw Qaddafi get brutally murdered and Hilary had a good laugh. W e saw Saddam get hanged and we saw his body. So why was OBL any different?

This nonsense about a shirne is ridiculous since those that follow OBL are hardcore wahabi's who believe shrine worship is shirk. I dont see why they at least could have shown the funeral prayer on the ship with a shot of OBL's face. Why not?

I agree with [MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION] on this one.

 

[IMMY69]

yes but it doesnt make sense. We saw Qaddafi get brutally murdered and Hilary had a good laugh. W e saw Saddam get hanged and we saw his body. So why was OBL any different?

This nonsense about a shirne is ridiculous since those that follow OBL are hardcore wahabi's who believe shrine worship is shirk. I dont see why they at least could have shown the funeral prayer on the ship with a shot of OBL's face. Why not?

I agree with [MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION] on this one.

I suspect OBL died years earlier either by a bomb landing on the cave he was hiding in or more likely from kidney failure. Once the US we’re certain of his death this whole assassination “wag the dog” scenario emerged.

However, Indians, some so-called Pakistanis and now Trump always point to Pakistan turning a blind eye to OBL as he was “found” in Pakistan, so the one concrete irrefutable thing we can refer them to is the article of the head of the US forces.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think some posters here have a grave misunderstanding of things. They would much rather put the blame on their own country rather than look at things how they actually are.

The fact is that Pakistan has offered more assistance to U.S than you can expect from any ally. This was never our war yet we still became a part of it. We stopped supporting Taliban govt. in Afghanistan when US launched their war on terror, gave them all kinds of ground-support in Pakistan and on the border. Not to mention we had to suffer from terrorism in our country as a result of this.

You can bring up OBL all you want but don't forget that the top most-wanted al-Qaeda operatives like: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Faraj al Libbi, Ibn Sheikh al Libbi, and Abu Zubaidah were all captured by the ISI while others (even Americans admit this) were caught thanks to tips from the ISI. And after the Americans leave we will be the ones who will have to suffer the blow-back of whatever is there in Afghanistan.

Pakistan has no reason to sacrifice it's self-interests to appease the U.S and though we have done this a number of times in the past there is absolutely no reason to do so again if America is just going to put the blame on us for their continued failures.

 

[Hitman]

Is he not Al Qaeda?

So basically every one of the inside sources that has confirmed the news are lying?

Has there ever been one inside source or terrorist organization till date that has refuted US's claims?

 

[tonmoy]

yes but it doesnt make sense. We saw Qaddafi get brutally murdered and Hilary had a good laugh. W e saw Saddam get hanged and we saw his body. So why was OBL any different?

This nonsense about a shirne is ridiculous since those that follow OBL are hardcore wahabi's who believe shrine worship is shirk. I dont see why they at least could have shown the funeral prayer on the ship with a shot of OBL's face. Why not?

I agree with [MENTION=147314]topspin[/MENTION] on this one.

Qaddafi or Saddam are famous Secular dictator. They lived in palaces and were not fighting infidels (as you call it)... Apples and oranges.

If the hardcore wahabi cleric do not mind that Qadris grave is now a shrine, I highly doubt they would have said anything about Mr Bin.

As far as prayer on the ship is concerned, I do have my doubt on that...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So basically every one of the inside sources that has confirmed the news are lying?

Has there ever been one inside source or terrorist organization till date that has refuted US's claims?

I didn't say they were lying, they may be or they may not be, I just don't trust Al Qaeda as a source for reliable material. Hence I make a simple request for verifiable proof like any person with their wits about them should.

 

[the Great Khan]

Qaddafi or Saddam are famous Secular dictator. They lived in palaces and were not fighting infidels (as you call it)... Apples and oranges.

I call what? can you elaborate? be careful when you try to put words in other peoples mouths. OBL was as famous if not more than those guys. How does that stop the americans from posting a picture?

If the hardcore wahabi cleric do not mind that Qadris grave is now a shrine, I highly doubt they would have said anything about Mr Bin.

why would they care? qadri was a barelvi and the wahabis couldnt care less if they worship him or not. He isnt one of theirs so to speak. OBL was one of theirs.Again your incoherent.
As far as prayer on the ship is concerned, I do have my doubt on that...

take my advice, dont begin a debate on a topic you have no clue about. This isnt college or high school.

 

[tonmoy]

take my advice, dont begin a debate on a topic you have no clue about. This isnt college or high school.

Stop taking words literally...
"You" in my sentence refers to like minded individuals. It is stupid to compare a hard core Islamic extremist like Qadri's and OBL to secular dictator like Qaddafi and Saddam... But you already know that....

Wahabis proclaim Qadri as a hero.

 

[CCAD]

If OBL wasn’t killed in that raid by American seal team than basically USA was trying to defame Pakistan’s standing at world stage. Why didn’t the pakistan army do anything to refute these claims by US army that they killed OBL just stone throw away from Pakistani army base?
I’m curious as to why the Pakistan’s establishments would be silent on this.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If OBL wasn’t killed in that raid by American seal team than basically USA was trying to defame Pakistan’s standing at world stage. Why didn’t the pakistan army do anything to refute these claims by US army that they killed OBL just stone throw away from Pakistani army base?
I’m curious as to why the Pakistan’s establishments would be silent on this.

Pakistan was accepting money from USA at that time, which continued to be given long after OBL was allegedly found in Abbotobad. That's not to say he was or wasn't there, but when you have a strange partnership between two countries in this situation, who can say why one party said this or the other one didn't say that?

 

[the Great Khan]

Stop taking words literally...
"You" in my sentence refers to like minded individuals. It is stupid to compare a hard core Islamic extremist like Qadri's and OBL to secular dictator like Qaddafi and Saddam... But you already know that....

Wahabis proclaim Qadri as a hero.

And stop making stupid comments. You have no idea what your are talking about. Qadri is only seen as a hero by a certain segment of the Pakistani populace. Granted that is a big segment but hey are not what are known as "wahabis. Quite far from it. And dont try to be clever. You are out of your comfort zone here.

 

[PakLFC]

Dr. Afridi helped the US find Osama. If Pakistan continues to jail him, it sends out a very clear signal that they did not want Osama to be found.

That is not the point. Afridi is a traitor to Pak so understandably behind bars as he should be. Put the shoe on the other foot, any American found guilty of the same would never be freed either. America can think whatever it wants now about Osama.

 

[Napa]

That is not the point. Afridi is a traitor to Pak so understandably behind bars as he should be. Put the shoe on the other foot, any American found guilty of the same would never be freed either. America can think whatever it wants now about Osama.

You don't get to tell Americans what the point is or is not. They get to decide for themselves the meaning of the Pakistani government punishing someone who helped find Bin Laden.

 

[PakLFC]

You don't get to tell Americans what the point is or is not. They get to decide for themselves the meaning of the Pakistani government punishing someone who helped find Bin Laden.

IK just told Trump what the point is on Twitter unless you missed it! If the American's were so powerful and Pak so weak Trump would have freed Shakil Afridi by now. In other words America has been unable to free the man who supposedly helped them. I remember Trump saying how Shakil will be walking free the first week he came in to power. This is Imran Khan not Sharif or Zardari Trump is talking too. Sab se pehle Pakistan.

 

[Markhor]

On the Bin Laden issue, former ISI Chief Asad Durrani has said based on his contacts he believes "it is quite possible, but more probable that the ISI did know about Bin Laden's whereabouts, and at the right time his location would've been revealed.

The right time would've been when we got the necessary quid pro quo. When you have someone like Bin Laden you are not going to simply hand him over to the US."

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z__lyS-wI7c" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

From 14:51 onwards.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Trump's first tweet of 2018 was directed at Pakistan, as if it was his New Year resolution to sort us out, the year is ending, what's happened?

 

[shaaik]

Trump asks Pakistan PM for help with Afghan peace talks: Pakistani minister


ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump has written a letter to Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan asking for the South Asian nation to help with Afghan peace talks, Pakistani Information Minister Fawad Chaudhry said on Monday.

“President Trump has written a letter. He has asked for Pakistan’s cooperation to bring the Taliban into talks,” Chaudhry told Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-in-syria-coalition-envoy-idUSKBN1O20LS?il=0