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Pakistan makes Arabic a complusory subject

Pointless.

Arabic was also compulsory in the schools in the Gulf but it was taught at such a basic level that by 10th grade most could only parrot certain phrases like Ana Saeed, ukhti Noora etc.

Arabic is a very difficult and complex language and you need to have a whole infrastructre and enviroment in place to teach it. I doubt they even have the necessary amount of teachers required if they make it obligatory for everone.

They will probably abandon this idea once they comprehend the actual logisitics of it or just half *** it and add an extra useless burden for the students like the schools in the Gulf did.
 
Well at least it is not Turkish. They are our new heroes these days.

We tried to be Arabs for years but they kept rejecting us.
 
Pointless.

Arabic was also compulsory in the schools in the Gulf but it was taught at such a basic level that by 10th grade most could only parrot certain phrases like Ana Saeed, ukhti Noora etc.

Arabic is a very difficult and complex language and you need to have a whole infrastructre and enviroment in place to teach it. I doubt they even have the necessary amount of teachers required if they make it obligatory for everone.

They will probably abandon this idea once they comprehend the actual logisitics of it or just half *** it and add an extra useless burden for the students like the schools in the Gulf did.

Finally a sensible post.
If the teaching in Pakistan is anything like what expat kids in the Gulf learn, then they will not understand Arabic even after 10 years

Virtually no Arab speaks classical Arabic, the dialects vary hugely, and on top you have that horrid pidgin version used in the Gulf, which as of now most Pakistanis there speak

There are many Pakistanis in Dubai, and other desis and Iranians who speak broken Arabic and can do basis stuff with that, but its not enough to understand the Quran or do anything beyond superficial interaction

Examples:

The phrase "sayyara mal ana" or "ism mal ana" is absolutely nonsensical in Arabic, but every other Gulf based desi uses it and thinks he is fluent in Arabic

Or "ana sawwi kalam mal inta".
 
Well at least it is not Turkish. They are our new heroes these days.

We tried to be Arabs for years but they kept rejecting us.

I'm surprised you bothered to learn English, you must know that we British will ultimately reject you as well.
 
Pakistan should do what the English did 400 years ago - an authorised version of the Koran translated into a language people understand. No point parroting something in a language you can’t comprehend.
 
Pakistan should do what the English did 400 years ago - an authorised version of the Koran translated into a language people understand. No point parroting something in a language you can’t comprehend.

There are plenty of Quran copies translated in many different South Asian languages, so the govt doesn't have to waste resources translating the Quran when it's already been done.
 
Pointless.

Arabic was also compulsory in the schools in the Gulf but it was taught at such a basic level that by 10th grade most could only parrot certain phrases like Ana Saeed, ukhti Noora etc.

Arabic is a very difficult and complex language and you need to have a whole infrastructre and enviroment in place to teach it. I doubt they even have the necessary amount of teachers required if they make it obligatory for everone.

They will probably abandon this idea once they comprehend the actual logisitics of it or just half *** it and add an extra useless burden for the students like the schools in the Gulf did.

Finally a sensible post.
If the teaching in Pakistan is anything like what expat kids in the Gulf learn, then they will not understand Arabic even after 10 years

Virtually no Arab speaks classical Arabic, the dialects vary hugely, and on top you have that horrid pidgin version used in the Gulf, which as of now most Pakistanis there speak

There are many Pakistanis in Dubai, and other desis and Iranians who speak broken Arabic and can do basis stuff with that, but its not enough to understand the Quran or do anything beyond superficial interaction

Examples:

The phrase "sayyara mal ana" or "ism mal ana" is absolutely nonsensical in Arabic, but every other Gulf based desi uses it and thinks he is fluent in Arabic

Or "ana sawwi kalam mal inta".

I think that has more to do with the quality of the education system and curriculum in the gulf. In America I know many people have become fluent in Arabic after only taking 4 semesters of Arabic in college and btw it's very elementary arabic, it's more about how you teach it. So Pakistan should follow the American model, of course even if you study a foreign language it's unlikely you will achieve native fluency, in America and Canada many high school kids study Spanish and French even at AP level and guess what? Many can still barely hold a conversation in either language or forget about it after high school, I still think it's an excellent idea to make the effort to teach Arabic and perhaps some will be more passionate and improve their fluency and retain the skills they learned.
 
Pakistanis have the most broken grasp of the most universal language in the world (English) so prioritising Arabic is a backwards move.

I find a lot of Pakistanis have a broken grasp of both Urdu and English. Especially these upper-middle class or elite kids that go to english medium private schools. They end up partially learning botched versions of both languages. So many of my friends speak neither language with much grace.
 
Pakistan should do what the English did 400 years ago - an authorised version of the Koran translated into a language people understand. No point parroting something in a language you can’t comprehend.

Urdu, Sindhi, Pashto, Seraiki, Balochi, and Punjabi all have Quran translations already.

There is even a Quran translation in Esperanto.
 
Urdu, Sindhi, Pashto, Seraiki, Balochi, and Punjabi all have Quran translations already.

There is even a Quran translation in Esperanto.

"Authorized version"

This is not communism where it's gov job to come up with "authorized" quran translation...
 
All the poojas are done in Sanskrit at least in whole of Northern India.
The Hindu marriage ceremony is full of Sanskrit verses.

Hence no one understands. They just wait for the wedding to be over so that they can load up on calories. :inzi
 
This is just a part of an identity crisis. The reality is that historically and ethnically the Pakistanis are largely an Indo-European people, following the gradation of other people of the Indian subcontinent (Punjabis, Jats, Rajputs etc.), with an infusion of some Arabs, Turks and Mongols over the last thousand years (the Persians were also an Indo-European people). However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite.

Sadly, this is a cultural disaster. Just look at the situation of the Arab countries. Some consistent features 1) lack of democracy 2) oppression of minorities (for example the Shias) 3) lack of development of science and technology. This should not be an ideal to be aspiring to.
 
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This is just a part of an identity crisis. The reality is that historically and ethnically the Pakistanis are largely an Indo-European people, following the gradation of other people of the Indian subcontinent (Punjabis, Jats, Rajputs etc.), with an infusion of some Arabs, Turks and Mongols over the last thousand years (the Persians were also an Indo-European people). However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite.

Sadly, this is a cultural disaster. Just look at the situation of the Arab countries. Some consistent features 1) lack of democracy 2) oppression of minorities (for example the Shias) 3) lack of development of science and technology. This should not be an ideal to be aspiring to.

4) An inability to live in peace with other communities within their own country, and with their neighboring countries.
 
4) An inability to live in peace with other communities within their own country, and with their neighboring countries.

And finally, though they are still wealthy, the oil wealth was a fluke of nature, and it will soon end. The following is the graph of Saudi Arabia's forex reserves, which have lost about 40% in the last 6 years and you can take the downward trajectory to represent the Arab economies in general.

Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 6.03.07 AM.jpg

The replacement of oil by other energy sources will only accelerate, and it now seems possible that the ultimate source of limitless clean energy may actually be technologically feasible.

"Korean artificial sun sets the new world record of 20-sec-long operation at 100 million degrees"

https://phys.org/news/2020-12-korean-artificial-sun-world-sec-long.html

Where are the Arabs as the world makes these technological breakthroughs?
 
This is just a part of an identity crisis. The reality is that historically and ethnically the Pakistanis are largely an Indo-European people, following the gradation of other people of the Indian subcontinent (Punjabis, Jats, Rajputs etc.), with an infusion of some Arabs, Turks and Mongols over the last thousand years (the Persians were also an Indo-European people). However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite.

Sadly, this is a cultural disaster. Just look at the situation of the Arab countries. Some consistent features 1) lack of democracy 2) oppression of minorities (for example the Shias) 3) lack of development of science and technology. This should not be an ideal to be aspiring to.

An Indian American pontificating on Pakistani identity crisis isn't a good look. Are you seriously telling us that Indians preserve their culture better? You wouldn't guess that when you see them abroad.
 
An Indian American pontificating on Pakistani identity crisis isn't a good look. Are you seriously telling us that Indians preserve their culture better? You wouldn't guess that when you see them abroad.

Way better than pronouncements of someone suffering from a severe identity crisis, who keeps rambling on about something he is not.

In my circle of expat Indians they do not try to claim something they are not. They speak with each other in Indian languages, send links about Indian classical music events, attend Navratri, Durga Puja and other such events etc. No doubt some Indians try to be something they are not, but it is not common.

Anyway, my post was not about individual people. It was about the power elite, and the national identity they promote for their own benefit.
 
This is just a part of an identity crisis. The reality is that historically and ethnically the Pakistanis are largely an Indo-European people, following the gradation of other people of the Indian subcontinent (Punjabis, Jats, Rajputs etc.), with an infusion of some Arabs, Turks and Mongols over the last thousand years (the Persians were also an Indo-European people). However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite.

Sadly, this is a cultural disaster. Just look at the situation of the Arab countries. Some consistent features 1) lack of democracy 2) oppression of minorities (for example the Shias) 3) lack of development of science and technology. This should not be an ideal to be aspiring to.

The bill is only for Islamabad. You are talking about less than 1% of the population.


From the article "The Senate on Monday approved the Compulsory Teaching of the Arabic Language Bill 2020 which makes teaching of the Arabic language mandatory in primary and secondary schools in Islamabad."

While i personally dont like making it compulsory, i think you are going way to deep. This would be like one city in South India making Sanskrit compulsory.

Pakistan has Urdu, an Indo Aryan language as the official language as well as the lingua franca of the country. Had the "power elite" wanted to separate from North Indians, they could have chose another language at time of partition. Not one which the majority of Indians can speak.

English the global lingua franca is the other official language, and it is compulsory.

So this is kind of like some schools in US having Spanish mandatory from an early age. Useless, but not that big of a deal.
 
Way better than pronouncements of someone suffering from a severe identity crisis, who keeps rambling on about something he is not.

In my circle of expat Indians they do not try to claim something they are not. They speak with each other in Indian languages, send links about Indian classical music events, attend Navratri, Durga Puja and other such events etc. No doubt some Indians try to be something they are not, but it is not common.

Anyway, my post was not about individual people. It was about the power elite, and the national identity they promote for their own benefit.

Expat Pakistanis communicate in Urdu, as thats the language everyone can uderstand. If the expats are Punjabi's, then speak in Punjabi, if they are Pashtun they speak Pashto, etc. However in a mixed circle, like a dawat, or shaadi, its Urdu.
 
Way better than pronouncements of someone suffering from a severe identity crisis, who keeps rambling on about something he is not.

In my circle of expat Indians they do not try to claim something they are not. They speak with each other in Indian languages, send links about Indian classical music events, attend Navratri, Durga Puja and other such events etc. No doubt some Indians try to be something they are not, but it is not common.

Anyway, my post was not about individual people. It was about the power elite, and the national identity they promote for their own benefit.

Never professed to be anything I am not, although for some reason my highly proclaimed nationality strikes a sour note with some Indian members. No idea why.

So first you were saying Pakistanis have an identity crisis, now you have switched to a power elite who are promoting a national identity for their own benefit. If they are promoting a beneficial identity, how can it be an identity crisis? The two positions you have taken don't seem to line up.
 
Pakistanis have a massive identity crisis .. who learns a useless language like Arabic in this day and age?

It's sad that 70 years on since they were founded, Pakistan still has no idea about what it is supposed to be - should we be a democracy? maybe we need an iron dictator? a proper islamic caliphate, perhaps will do us good? should we force urdu on everyone or perhaps arabic? Oh and shall we force everyone to wwaer burkaa? Maybe the turks are our true muslim heritage .... on and on it goes .. tis embarrassing to see..

A lot of this confusion is spearheaded by Imran I guess ,who himself has no idea what to do in office.
 
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Never professed to be anything I am not, although for some reason my highly proclaimed nationality strikes a sour note with some Indian members. No idea why.

It is a source of constant amusement, never fails to draw a chuckle.

So first you were saying Pakistanis have an identity crisis, now you have switched to a power elite who are promoting a national identity for their own benefit. If they are promoting a beneficial identity, how can it be an identity crisis? The two positions you have taken don't seem to line up.

It's okay, given your background I understand that your English comprehension is not up to the mark. Try reading the post I wrote again, especially the part "However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite".
 
Pakistanis have a massive identity crisis .. who learns a useless language like Arabic in this day and age?

It's sad that 70 years on since they were founded, Pakistan still has no idea about what it is supposed to be - should we be a democracy? maybe we need an iron dictator? a proper islamic caliphate, perhaps will do us good? should we force urdu on everyone or perhaps arabic? Oh and shall we force everyone to wwaer burkaa? Maybe the turks are our true muslim heritage .... on and on it goes .. tis embarrassing to see..

A lot of this confusion is spearheaded by Imran I guess ,who himself has no idea what to do in office.

If you bothered to read the article you would have noted it was only for one city, Islamabad. Islamabad has less than 1% of the population of the country.

While i personally dont agree with this, as English is more than sufficient, it seems Indians are obsessed with making sure that Pakistanis dont have an "identity crisis". This also entails calling Muslim Kings of the subcontinent foreign invaders, any part of Muslim subcontinent culture that comes from outside is bad unless Hindus like it also then its ok, and of course disowning your Muslim ancestors. As in you can be Muslim, but your ancestors are Hindus/Buddhist. So the last 1000 year of Muslim ancestors dont count.
 
While i personally dont like making it compulsory, i think you are going way to deep. This would be like one city in South India making Sanskrit compulsory.

Soon after independence, the Central Government did try to make the teaching of Hindi compulsory. As India was a democracy they soon backed off.

Pakistan has Urdu, an Indo Aryan language as the official language as well as the lingua franca of the country.

I know Urdu is an Indo-European language, though some people try their hardest to deny that heritage, including using the non-Indo-European Nastaʼlīq script instead of the Indo-European Devanagari script.

Had the "power elite" wanted to separate from North Indians, they could have chose another language at time of partition. Not one which the majority of Indians can speak.

You are way off, probably less than 25% of Indians can speak Urdu with its plethora of Arabic and Persian loanwords.

English the global lingua franca is the other official language, and it is compulsory.

So this is kind of like some schools in US having Spanish mandatory from an early age. Useless, but not that big of a deal.

The analogy doesn't work. Those pushing Arabic are trying to tie the culture closer to the state religion. That is not why American kids learn Spanish (which also is not compulsory).
 
It is a source of constant amusement, never fails to draw a chuckle.



It's okay, given your background I understand that your English comprehension is not up to the mark. Try reading the post I wrote again, especially the part "However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite".

For us it seems like a source of obsession. An inability to see that Muslims can also have their own culture, which might be similar to Hindus, however is not the same. The differences by Hindus are viewed as an identity crisis.

Once again the power elites chose Urdu as the official language. If India has Hindi as the lingua franca, and Pakistan has Urdu, does that really separate Pakistanis from Indians, or does it bring them closer to them.
 
For us it seems like a source of obsession. An inability to see that Muslims can also have their own culture, which might be similar to Hindus, however is not the same. The differences by Hindus are viewed as an identity crisis.

Once again the power elites chose Urdu as the official language. If India has Hindi as the lingua franca, and Pakistan has Urdu, does that really separate Pakistanis from Indians, or does it bring them closer to them.

You are someone who wants to find a workable compromise. The world needs more people like you, however I think you are in a minority.

Come on guys. Your heritage is ten thousand years Indo-European, interrupted by a thousand years. No one with two brain cells capable of rubbing against each other, having seen the situation in the modern world, would want to be Arab rather than Indo-European.
 
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Soon after independence, the Central Government did try to make the teaching of Hindi compulsory. As India was a democracy they soon backed off.

In Sindh, Sindhi is official. There is nothing stopping the other provinces from using a local language in the provinces.

I know Urdu is an Indo-European language, though some people try their hardest to deny that heritage, including using the non-Indo-European Nastaʼlīq script instead of the Indo-European Devanagari script.

Nastaliq was used by Muslims for centuries. Are we supposed to disown it? We have an identity crisis because we want to use a "foreign script". Hindus also used that script, however as soon as Muslim political control was gone, they wanted to use Devanagari. Which is fine. However its also fine if Muslims want to stick with their culture.

You are way off, probably less than 25% of Indians can speak Urdu with its plethora of Arabic and Persian loanwords.

0% of Indians can speak Hindi without using some Arabic or Persian words. Indian Hindi speakers dont have an issue communicating with Pakistani outside of the subcontinent. And if an Indian watched a Pakistani news channel, or a drama, i dont think they would have much difficulty understanding it, maybe a few words here and there that they wont get.


The reason that Indians can understand less Arabic and Persian words, is that they removed those words from Hindi. The Farsi and Arabic words came into Hindi, as Persian was the official language for century. It came organically kind of how now people will speak Hindi and Urdu with English loan words.

Have you listened to Bollywood songs? Do you realize how many farsi words are there. This is Hindutva logic, anything foreign needs to be removed. So lets remove Farsi words that Indians have used for centuries with Sanskrit origin words that no one can understand.

Or maybe you are not a native Hindi speaker, and you have studied Sanskritized Hindi in school. People in UP and Bihar will have no difficulty understanding Urdu words.

The analogy doesn't work. Those pushing Arabic are trying to tie the culture closer to the state religion. That is not why American kids learn Spanish (which also is not compulsory).

Some might be doing that, others want it for economic reasons in the gulf.

Also a foreign language is compulsory in many parts of the US. I studied Spanish for 5 years. I believe 3 of them was compulsory in high school and 2 in junior high. Some schools have options such as Spanish and French, others have more languages. In my junior high school I started with Spanish, i did not have an option for anything else. So i stuck with it in high school.
 
You are someone who wants to find a workable compromise. The world needs more people like you, however I think you are in a minority.

Come on guys. Your heritage is ten thousand years Indo-European, interrupted by a thousand years. No one with two brain cells capable of rubbing against each other, having seen the situation in the modern world, would want to be Arab rather than Indo-European.

Is thousand years not a long time? I mean you can argue that all humans are one people, so at one point we must have had one human culture, and we should go back to that one. After all that was our original culture.

Look at this way. In England there was a culture that existed before the Romans invaded. Then Anglo Saxons, Danes, Normans, etc all invaded and the culture of England changed forever.


The name England comes from invaders.
The English language comes from invaders.
The English language changed forever by new invaders.
Christian religion was supported by the invaders.
The flag of England comes from a Greek guy who never set foot in the country.

Does anyone in England say lets go back to the culture that existed before all of those inaders came to England?


Culture always changes. We dont need to practice the culture that existed 10,000 years ago.

Also the only people who say that Pakistanis want to be Arabs are left wing Muslims, who cant because of blasphemy laws say they are atheist or agnostic. Or right wing Hindus. No one else.

Pakistanis dont eat Arab food, listen to Arabic music, watch Arab movies, wear Arab clothes. I dont get the trying to be Arab accusation, only thing i see in common is Islam, and maybe to take a shot at Islam they make the Arab claim.
 
Pakistanis have a massive identity crisis .. who learns a useless language like Arabic in this day and age?

It's sad that 70 years on since they were founded, Pakistan still has no idea about what it is supposed to be - should we be a democracy? maybe we need an iron dictator? a proper islamic caliphate, perhaps will do us good? should we force urdu on everyone or perhaps arabic? Oh and shall we force everyone to wwaer burkaa? Maybe the turks are our true muslim heritage .... on and on it goes .. tis embarrassing to see..

A lot of this confusion is spearheaded by Imran I guess ,who himself has no idea what to do in office.

What is surely more weird is an Indian Marxist who is giving this so much thought. What do you think about Indians who wear t-shirts and jeans and speak English? Do you think they have an identity crisis?
 
It is a source of constant amusement, never fails to draw a chuckle.



It's okay, given your background I understand that your English comprehension is not up to the mark. Try reading the post I wrote again, especially the part "However, the Indo-European identity needs to be rejected by the power elite as it brings Pakistanis too close to Indians, and hostility towards India is the greatest tool for the power elite".

Yes my comprehension must be flawed, that is why I still don't understand what is meant by this Indo-European identity which Pakistan must be afraid of. Maybe we should have a separate thread dedicated solely to that, but regardless, onto the next one....

If bringing Pakistanis too close to Indians is such a bad thing for this supposed power elite, why does India not do the opposite and press publicly for closer relations and offer olive branches and sweeteners? What we see in contrast, is banning of Pakistani artists from India, banning of their sports stars, and constant hostile outbursts at govt level aimed at Pakistan.

Honestly, I am failing to see what there is to be scared of, what is there about this Indo-European culture which is so terrifying for Pakistan?
 
In Sindh, Sindhi is official. There is nothing stopping the other provinces from using a local language in the provinces.



Nastaliq was used by Muslims for centuries. Are we supposed to disown it? We have an identity crisis because we want to use a "foreign script". Hindus also used that script, however as soon as Muslim political control was gone, they wanted to use Devanagari. Which is fine. However its also fine if Muslims want to stick with their culture.



0% of Indians can speak Hindi without using some Arabic or Persian words. Indian Hindi speakers dont have an issue communicating with Pakistani outside of the subcontinent. And if an Indian watched a Pakistani news channel, or a drama, i dont think they would have much difficulty understanding it, maybe a few words here and there that they wont get.


The reason that Indians can understand less Arabic and Persian words, is that they removed those words from Hindi. The Farsi and Arabic words came into Hindi, as Persian was the official language for century. It came organically kind of how now people will speak Hindi and Urdu with English loan words.

Have you listened to Bollywood songs? Do you realize how many farsi words are there. This is Hindutva logic, anything foreign needs to be removed. So lets remove Farsi words that Indians have used for centuries with Sanskrit origin words that no one can understand.

Or maybe you are not a native Hindi speaker, and you have studied Sanskritized Hindi in school. People in UP and Bihar will have no difficulty understanding Urdu words.



Some might be doing that, others want it for economic reasons in the gulf.

Also a foreign language is compulsory in many parts of the US. I studied Spanish for 5 years. I believe 3 of them was compulsory in high school and 2 in junior high. Some schools have options such as Spanish and French, others have more languages. In my junior high school I started with Spanish, i did not have an option for anything else. So i stuck with it in high school.

You cannot separate Arabic and Persian words from Hindi ever. 800 years of Islamic rule cannot be wiped out and Bollywood is keeping these Perso-Arabic words alive. Now people do not even know that common words like Zyada, Zukham, Darwaza are not Indian words.
 
Look at this way. In England there was a culture that existed before the Romans invaded. Then Anglo Saxons, Danes, Normans, etc all invaded and the culture of England changed forever.

The difference is that Anglo Saxons, Danes, Normans, Romans etc. were all Indo-European people, and the current population of England is Indo-European, or more specifically the North European branch of Indo-Europeans. Modern English is Germanic language with lots of French loanwords.

A similar situation to Pakistan would have been some Christian fundamentalists trying to make Aramaic (the Semitic language that Jesus spoke) compulsory in English schools.
 
Yes my comprehension must be flawed, that is why I still don't understand what is meant by this Indo-European identity which Pakistan must be afraid of. Maybe we should have a separate thread dedicated solely to that, but regardless, onto the next one....

If bringing Pakistanis too close to Indians is such a bad thing for this supposed power elite, why does India not do the opposite and press publicly for closer relations and offer olive branches and sweeteners? What we see in contrast, is banning of Pakistani artists from India, banning of their sports stars, and constant hostile outbursts at govt level aimed at Pakistan.

Honestly, I am failing to see what there is to be scared of, what is there about this Indo-European culture which is so terrifying for Pakistan?

Indo-European is language and DNA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)#Distribution

Identifying with Indo-European rather than Islam if terrifying for the Pakistani elite since it takes away the raison d'etre for Pakistan. If Pakistanis identify with Indo-Europeans then Islam becomes a foreign intrusion. Without Islam and India as the enemy, the Pakistani elite (notably the military) will not be able to keep dominating the country and getting all the benefits as the economy rots.

As for why India doesn't reach out to Pakistan, there are two reasons 1) some Indian politicians also benefit from animosity 2) many Indians are not well disposed to Pakistan due to the deaths of it soldiers like the Pulwama 40.

I am done with this thread, be well all.
 
Indo-European is language and DNA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)#Distribution

Identifying with Indo-European rather than Islam if terrifying for the Pakistani elite since it takes away the raison d'etre for Pakistan. If Pakistanis identify with Indo-Europeans then Islam becomes a foreign intrusion. Without Islam and India as the enemy, the Pakistani elite (notably the military) will not be able to keep dominating the country and getting all the benefits as the economy rots.

As for why India doesn't reach out to Pakistan, there are two reasons 1) some Indian politicians also benefit from animosity 2) many Indians are not well disposed to Pakistan due to the deaths of it soldiers like the Pulwama 40.

I am done with this thread, be well all.

So by using your logic, that Islam is foreign as it is not a Indo European religion, So are the Hindu Dravidian speakers of South India practicing a foreign religion? What about Hindus of Bali? They are practicing a foreign religion then too right?
 
I mean, teaching English should be made compulsory. And, make sure that graduates from Pakistani schools and universities can actually converse in it fluently and it is the language of science. So it will help them a lot. It is pretty shameful that graduates from Pakistani universities can not speak well at all even though they say that the official language of instruction for private universities is conducted in English.
It should be standardized right from primary schooling all the way up to the university level.

I mean, what is the point of learning Arabic practically? Nothing.
 
The difference is that Anglo Saxons, Danes, Normans, Romans etc. were all Indo-European people, and the current population of England is Indo-European, or more specifically the North European branch of Indo-Europeans. Modern English is Germanic language with lots of French loanwords.

No its because they stayed in England and made it their home.

Thats why no one in subcontinent views the British as locals, even though they also spoke a Indo European language.

Muslims and most Hindus and Sikhs dont view things like Shalwar Kameez, samosa, etc as Turkish, they would view it as local as they, even though they were not Indo European people. Its because they settled in the subcontinent and assimilated with the locals. Unlike the Indo European Brits.




A similar situation to Pakistan would have been some Christian fundamentalists trying to make Aramaic (the Semitic language that Jesus spoke) compulsory in English schools.

So you think a language spoken by 300 million people, and official in over 20 countries, is the same as a language that is almost dead?

I mean there can at least be some value to know Arabic, compared to Aramaic or Sanskrit.

Seems you are making a big deal of Pakistan making Arabic compulsory in one city, which has less than 1% of the population.
 
I mean, teaching English should be made compulsory. And, make sure that graduates from Pakistani schools and universities can actually converse in it fluently and it is the language of science. So it will help them a lot. It is pretty shameful that graduates from Pakistani universities can not speak well at all even though they say that the official language of instruction for private universities is conducted in English.
It should be standardized right from primary schooling all the way up to the university level.

I mean, what is the point of learning Arabic practically? Nothing.

Agreed. But English is already compulsory, so its not like there is a huge loss for teaching Arabic. And its only in Islamabad.
 
Yes my comprehension must be flawed, that is why I still don't understand what is meant by this Indo-European identity which Pakistan must be afraid of. Maybe we should have a separate thread dedicated solely to that, but regardless, onto the next one....

If bringing Pakistanis too close to Indians is such a bad thing for this supposed power elite, why does India not do the opposite and press publicly for closer relations and offer olive branches and sweeteners? What we see in contrast, is banning of Pakistani artists from India, banning of their sports stars, and constant hostile outbursts at govt level aimed at Pakistan.

Honestly, I am failing to see what there is to be scared of, what is there about this Indo-European culture which is so terrifying for Pakistan?

There is no Indo-European identity. Its simply a language family. This idea that people of Europe who speak Indo-European languages would feel closer to Indians, then people in Hungary, or Finland, or Basque who dont speak Indo-European languages is absurd.
 
There is no Indo-European identity. Its simply a language family. This idea that people of Europe who speak Indo-European languages would feel closer to Indians, then people in Hungary, or Finland, or Basque who dont speak Indo-European languages is absurd.

No one in Europe identifies with this Indo-European language ( if that's what it is), let alone Pakistanis. Only weird people who visit those websites which Napa provided links for would even have a clue what he was talking about. So not sure why these Pakistani elite are going to be terrified of something which 99% of the nation's population won't even be aware of.
 
What do you think about Indians who wear t-shirts and jeans and speak English? Do you think they have an identity crisis?

Why do people, not just Indians, wear jeans and t-shirt? It's an all purpose garment of convenience and decent cost, made popular by globalisation and trade. As for Eng, I guess Indians speak it because they were a former colony of England.

Strange that you bring this is up though. I can only assume you wear jeans and speak the lang to assert your western identity and you're pride in it? Given your constant salutations to the union jack on here while disregarding your origins, that is not a surprise to me :23:
 
Why do people, not just Indians, wear jeans and t-shirt? It's an all purpose garment of convenience and decent cost, made popular by globalisation and trade. As for Eng, I guess Indians speak it because they were a former colony of England.

Strange that you bring this is up though. I can only assume you wear jeans and speak the lang to assert your western identity and you're pride in it? Given your constant salutations to the union jack on here while disregarding your origins, that is not a surprise to me :23:

But it is you who are talking about Pakistanis having an identity crisis because they are learning Arabic, so why does this logic not apply to Indians when they wear western clothes and learn English?
 
Pakistanis have a massive identity crisis .. who learns a useless language like Arabic in this day and age?

It's sad that 70 years on since they were founded, Pakistan still has no idea about what it is supposed to be - should we be a democracy? maybe we need an iron dictator? a proper islamic caliphate, perhaps will do us good? should we force urdu on everyone or perhaps arabic? Oh and shall we force everyone to wwaer burkaa? Maybe the turks are our true muslim heritage .... on and on it goes .. tis embarrassing to see..

A lot of this confusion is spearheaded by Imran I guess ,who himself has no idea what to do in office.

What a stupid post. Who are you to conclude that Arabic is a useless language?

No.1 rule, not matter what, the more languages you learn the better understanding of the World and cultures you have. An extra language is a big resource to possess.

Only a fool would come here and talk about indentiy crisis when the discussion is about learning a new language. These two things are not related at all. A pakistani pupil who speaks Urdu or his other ethnic language then go on an learn Arabic, how will he suffer from identity crisis?

I speak 3 pakistani languages, I speak Norwegian fluently and hence also understand danish and swedish withou any issues, I can communicate okish in German and also in English. But I have no identity crisis at all. When I go to Pakistan I don't feel out of place at all whether it's in the city or in the village.

And now coming back to your ignorant comment of Arabic initially. Arabic is a special language for muslims. The Quran is in Arabic. You have no idea of difference between understanding it directly from Arabic or reading the translation. You miss alot of sweetness while reading the translation. Muslims also know that the Arabic is the language spoken in Paradise. Many many books are in Arabic. Over 400 million people speak Arabic. So how can you just come here and call this a useless language?
 
You have no idea of difference between understanding it directly from Arabic or reading the translation. You miss alot of sweetness while reading the translation. Muslims also know that the Arabic is the language spoken in Paradise. Many many books are in Arabic. Over 400 million people speak Arabic. So how can you just come here and call this a useless language?

As someone who understands the Quran in Arabic, i would say there is not a huge deal of difference in the meaning whether you read it in Arabic or through a translation.

Yes, the sweetness is missed in the translation, however your average Arab in Morocco or Lebanon doesnt understand the full Quran as well unless he has studied Arabic beyond basics.

The Arabic in the Quran is 180 degrees different from what is spoken in a place like Morocco.
70-80% of the nouns used in the Quran isnt used in daily spoken Arabic even in places like Saudi Arabia
 
As someone who understands the Quran in Arabic, i would say there is not a huge deal of difference in the meaning whether you read it in Arabic or through a translation.

Yes, the sweetness is missed in the translation, however your average Arab in Morocco or Lebanon doesnt understand the full Quran as well unless he has studied Arabic beyond basics.

The Arabic in the Quran is 180 degrees different from what is spoken in a place like Morocco.
70-80% of the nouns used in the Quran isnt used in daily spoken Arabic even in places like Saudi Arabia

What is your point? He said Arabic is a useless language, do you agree with him? Otherwise I don't understand why you have typed obvious things.

Of course there are dialects in Arabic, but must arabs can communicate in standard Arabic and are aware of that formal Arabic is pronounced with additionlal case endings.
 
As someone who understands the Quran in Arabic, i would say there is not a huge deal of difference in the meaning whether you read it in Arabic or through a translation.

Yes, the sweetness is missed in the translation, however your average Arab in Morocco or Lebanon doesnt understand the full Quran as well unless he has studied Arabic beyond basics.

The Arabic in the Quran is 180 degrees different from what is spoken in a place like Morocco.
70-80% of the nouns used in the Quran isnt used in daily spoken Arabic even in places like Saudi Arabia

They understand it, just because they speak in a dialect (Lugha 3aama - local dialect) doesn't mean they don't understand Lugha Fus-haa (High/Eloquent) language. Arabic is only taught in Fus-haa not 3aama.
 
I've been hearing that the level of Urdu is declining in Pakistan, especially in more educated Pakistanis, as there seems to be an emphasis on English. I'm British-born and my family speak Pothwari mainly, so my Urdu understanding is pretty bad and I can barely read any, so any thoughts are welcome (I suppose [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] will be brutally honest about this).

Surely, the national language should be more important, then English and regional languages (Punjabi being an obvious one), then any other foreign languages. As someone said, Arabic is very complex, and it seems that the complexity of Urdu seems to be a struggle for many natives, especially in written form, so I truly think mastering native language is far more important than our incessant want to be Arabinised.
 
Examples:

The phrase "sayyara mal ana" or "ism mal ana" is absolutely nonsensical in Arabic, but every other Gulf based desi uses it and thinks he is fluent in Arabic

Or "ana sawwi kalam mal inta".

True, I will translate the phrases in English using the exact bad grammar and vocabulary to make it clearer as to how silly it sounds to those who don't understand Arabic

"sayyara mal ana" - car this mine (correct term is Sayarity - my car)

"ism mal ana"- name this mine (correct term is Ismi - my name)

"ana sawwi kalam mal inta" - i making talk with you (correct term is atakallam ma3ak - I'm talking to you)
 
I've been hearing that the level of Urdu is declining in Pakistan, especially in more educated Pakistanis, as there seems to be an emphasis on English. I'm British-born and my family speak Pothwari mainly, so my Urdu understanding is pretty bad and I can barely read any, so any thoughts are welcome (I suppose [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] will be brutally honest about this).

Urdu is the lingua franca. Almost every educated person in Pakistan can speak the language. And the educated people will speak it better than the non educated people.

However the language has changed, with more and more English loan words entering the language.

I
Surely, the national language should be more important, then English and regional languages (Punjabi being an obvious one), then any other foreign languages. As someone said, Arabic is very complex, and it seems that the complexity of Urdu seems to be a struggle for many natives, especially in written form, so I truly think mastering native language is far more important than our incessant want to be Arabinised.

Urdu is not complex for natives in Pakistan. Illiterate people can speak the language easily. You go to any corner of Pakistan they can speak the language.
 
‘This bill is yet another use of fake religiosity being used to cover up the smell of bad governance ,’ Dr Pervez Hoodhoy.


The bill serves no purpose and it is not implementable. Similar to previous bills such as the Protection of Islam Bill, this bill, too, is to fool the public and use religion to win the right wing and to hide government incompetencies.

First, there is a severe lack of teachers in Pakistan. In Sindh alone, 13000 schools were closed due to a shortage of 37000 teachers. There are not even enough teachers to teach Urdu, let alone teaching a language as alien and as difficult as Arabic.

Second, teaching and learning in public schools is already terrible due to a lack of proper infrastructure. Many schools do not have computers, toilets, furniture, drinking water and other basic educational set-up. Many school are without a boundary wall.

Third, teacher absenteeism is endemic in Pakistan. Most teachers do not turn up to school. Even those who do, merely loiter around before heading home.

Instead of improving teaching and learning by improving school infrastructure, teacher training and recruitment and clamping down on absenteeism, our government is introducing one more subject just to show their religiosity and win votes.
 
‘This bill is yet another use of fake religiosity being used to cover up the smell of bad governance ,’ Dr Pervez Hoodhoy.


The bill serves no purpose and it is not implementable. Similar to previous bills such as the Protection of Islam Bill, this bill, too, is to fool the public and use religion to win the right wing and to hide government incompetencies.

First, there is a severe lack of teachers in Pakistan. In Sindh alone, 13000 schools were closed due to a shortage of 37000 teachers. There are not even enough teachers to teach Urdu, let alone teaching a language as alien and as difficult as Arabic.

Second, teaching and learning in public schools is already terrible due to a lack of proper infrastructure. Many schools do not have computers, toilets, furniture, drinking water and other basic educational set-up. Many school are without a boundary wall.

Third, teacher absenteeism is endemic in Pakistan. Most teachers do not turn up to school. Even those who do, merely loiter around before heading home.

Instead of improving teaching and learning by improving school infrastructure, teacher training and recruitment and clamping down on absenteeism, our government is introducing one more subject just to show their religiosity and win votes.

I was waiting for you to comment on this. I figured if i did not like this bill, you must be having a fit.

Anyway its not too bad. Its only for one city, effecting less than 1% of the population. you cut that part of the article out. Also the education system in Islamabad is actually decent, so it should not effect the other classes. Hopefully.
 
I was waiting for you to comment on this. I figured if i did not like this bill, you must be having a fit.

Anyway its not too bad. Its only for one city, effecting less than 1% of the population. you cut that part of the article out. Also the education system in Islamabad is actually decent, so it should not effect the other classes. Hopefully.

Among the posters on this forum, many don't come across as knowing arabic well ( except for Quranic verses). Why is that?

I think apart from Arabic, Pakistan should also make Farsi compulsory, as Urdu gets most of its vocabulary from there.
 
Among the posters on this forum, many don't come across as knowing arabic well ( except for Quranic verses). Why is that?

On this forum probably everyone went to a English Medium school if they are in Pakistan, or they live abroad so they would not study in Arabic. I doubt anyone went to a Madrassa.

I think apart from Arabic, Pakistan should also make Farsi compulsory, as Urdu gets most of its vocabulary from there.

Their is an NGO in Pakistan, The Citizens Foundation, that refused to switch to English Medium, and stuck with Urdu medium, and there schools are run pretty well. better than government schools.

In the future as their budget increases they will be switching to a 3 language formula, local language for the first few years, then Urdu, and eventually English. Thats probably the best option.
 
The lawmaker who tabled the bill said learning Arabic would make Pakistanis good Muslims. This is laughable! There are at least 2.5 million madrassa students who know Arabic very well; have they become good Muslims? This is nothing but forced religiosity to fool the masses.
 
The lawmaker who tabled the bill said learning Arabic would make Pakistanis good Muslims. This is laughable! There are at least 2.5 million madrassa students who know Arabic very well; have they become good Muslims? This is nothing but forced religiosity to fool the masses.

Or maybe they will read the quran and interpret it themselves and question the hardliners?
 
The lawmaker who tabled the bill said learning Arabic would make Pakistanis good Muslims. This is laughable! There are at least 2.5 million madrassa students who know Arabic very well; have they become good Muslims? This is nothing but forced religiosity to fool the masses.

Madrassah kids aren't fluent in arabic, most of them can't hold a conversation in arabic. I have a few cousins that are hafidh and none of them can speak Arabic, I don't where you got that assumption from.
 
Or maybe they will read the quran and interpret it themselves and question the hardliners?

They already know it and they are already interpreting it. Yet, we have not seen any difference in their lives.

Also, you do not need to know Arabic to actually understand the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran has been translated to Urdu.

The language used in the Holy Quran is sophisticated and Pakistani students with their elementary understanding of Arabic will struggle to understand the holy book. So, all this exercise of mandating the teaching if Arabic is futile.
 
It is extremely naive to assume that anybody studying arabic in our schools would understand enough of the language to use it any meaningful way. Firstly, there probably aren't enough qualified arabic teachers in the whole country that they will be able to properly teach the language as a compulsory subject in every school. Schools will end up hiring the same kind of people who currently teach islamic studies and have a very rudimentary grasp of the language. Secondly, let alone arabic, we can barely teach regional languages in our schools. I remember when Sindhi was made compulsory in schools, no non-Sindhi speaker ever learned anything beyond basic phrases like 'tunjo nalo cha ahay' 'tu bhulro ahay'. Students treated it as an irritant more than anything else. I doubt many people would be interested in studying punjabi or pushto as a compulsary subject either. People study English because they believe it would be useful to them in the future. None of these other languages do that. Having arabic as an optional subject is ok but making it compulsory doesn't make sense.
 
https://www.dawn.com/news/1607107/making-arabic-compulsory

IN every school of Islamabad every child shall henceforth be compelled to study the Arabic language from Grade 1 to Grade 5. Thereafter he or she shall learn Arabic grammar from Grade 6 to Grade 12. By unanimous vote, that’s what the Senate of Pakistan has decided. Introduced on Feb 1, 2021 as a private member’s bill by Senator Javed Abbasi of the PML-N, the Compulsory Teaching of Arabic Language Bill, 2020, will become an act of parliament once approved by the National Assembly. Thereafter it is likely to be applied across the country.

Should we citizens celebrate or be worried? That depends upon whether desired outcomes can be attained. Let’s therefore see what reasons were given by our lawmakers for the bill, one that will deeply impact many generations to come.

First, the bill states that proficiency in Arabic will “broaden the employment and business opportunities for the citizens of Pakistan” in rich Arab countries. While attraction to Arab oil wealth is understandable and has long been pursued, this reason is weak. Jobs and businesses go to persons with specific skills or those who have deliverables to offer.

Forcing students to learn Arabic won’t make them virtuous but setting good examples of moral behaviour might.

Just look at who gets invited to GCC countries. Westerners having zero familiarity with Arabic but high expertise are most sought after. Indians are a distant second, getting only about 10 per cent of high-level jobs with the rest performing menial and unskilled construction tasks. Pakistanis stand still further below with only 3pc at higher levels. This is because of low professional and life skills. With the Pakistani schoolchild now to be burdened with learning yet another language, achievement levels will further deteriorate.


If the Pakistani job seeker could use his school-learned Arabic to communicate with Arabs, would it improve matters? This is unlikely. Graduates from Pakistani madressahs seeking to understand the Holy Quran spend their lives trying to master classical Arabic. And yet they have zero job prospects in the Middle East. Present enrolment in Arabic language courses and university degree programmes is therefore very low. In fact, after starting such programmes over 20 to 30 years ago, some universities later closed them down.

For the boy now in an Islamabad school compelled to learn classical Arabic, communication with Arabs in their Arabic will not be easy. In fact, the poor fellow will be quite at sea. Only modern versions of Arabic are spoken in various Arab countries, not classical Arabic. Imagine that a Pakistani lad trained in ye olde Englisch — the “proper English” of Shakespeare or the Canterbury Tales — was to land up in today’s England. He might be a source of merriment but getting a job would be tough.

Second, the bill claims that school-taught Arabic will enable students to understand the Holy Quran better and so become better Muslims. Are the bill’s sponsors not aware that, beginning with Persian in the 10th century, the Quran has undergone translation into all major languages? This was necessary because it is extremely difficult for non-Arabs to understand the Quran’s wonderfully rich and nuanced classical Arabic.

Many scholars have spent entire lives performing such monumental translations, knowing that words have meanings that subtly change with time. But even so, no two translations completely agree and sometimes different interpretations emerge. Given these difficulties, absorbing the contents of the Quran through an Urdu translation is surely much easier for a Pakistani school student.

Deeply puzzling, therefore, is the statement from the minister of state for parliamentary affairs: “You cannot understand the message of Allah, if you do not know Arabic.” If true, that massively downgrades most Muslims living on this planet. The entire Muslim population of Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Iran, or Turkey cannot be made to understand or speak Arabic. And what of those long dead Muslims who tried hard to follow the teachings of Islam but never learned — nor tried to learn — the Arabic language?

That knowing Arabic — any version — can make one a better person or create unity is a bizarre thought. If true, the Arab states would be standing together instead of several rushing to recognise Israel even as it gobbles up the last bits of Palestine. Has the Arabic language made Arab states beacons of moral integrity, parsimony, and high thinking? Are our senators claiming that today’s Arabs are paragons of virtue?

But truly, it would be wonderful if teaching Arabic to kids, and further jacking up the religious content of education, could change students for the better. Just imagine! Future Pakistani lawyers would not be rampaging goons who destroy court property and randomly attack patients in hospital emergency wards; our students would be reading books rather than noisily demonstrating for their “right to cheat”; our political leaders would not be looters and our generals would no longer have secret overseas business franchises.

While some chase such delusions, others nervously search for their civilisational roots in some faraway land — Saudi Arabia earlier and now Turkey. Thus quite a few are drawn to Arabic. But curiously, Arabs show no interest in reviving Arabic. Their new generations are hell-bent upon modernising and moving towards English. Now for several decades, an energised Arab world has been luring American universities with large sums of money to open local campuses in GCC states.

Part of that investment is paying off. The success of Al-Amal, the UAE spacecraft that entered orbit around Mars some days ago, was officially celebrated as an Arab Muslim success. While one feels happy at this, it is really the triumph of Western technology harnessed by a few forward-looking Arabs who have learnt to speak the language of modern science. A thousand years ago that language was only Arabic. But in our epoch it is only English.

In forcing kids to learn Arabic, all those sitting in Pakistan’s Senate — with just a single exception — forgot that they are Pakistanis first and that Pakistan was made for Pakistanis. Rather than behave as snivelling cultural orphans seeking shelter in a rich uncle’s house, they need to take pride in the diversity and strength of the myriad local cultures and languages that make this land and its people.
 
I've been hearing that the level of Urdu is declining in Pakistan, especially in more educated Pakistanis, as there seems to be an emphasis on English. I'm British-born and my family speak Pothwari mainly, so my Urdu understanding is pretty bad and I can barely read any, so any thoughts are welcome (I suppose [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] will be brutally honest about this).

Surely, the national language should be more important, then English and regional languages (Punjabi being an obvious one), then any other foreign languages. As someone said, Arabic is very complex, and it seems that the complexity of Urdu seems to be a struggle for many natives, especially in written form, so I truly think mastering native language is far more important than our incessant want to be Arabinised.

Punjabi is not a national language. It's a regional dialect and the reason it gets neglected is probably as much to do with partition as any other.
 
Punjabi is not a national language. It's a regional dialect and the reason it gets neglected is probably as much to do with partition as any other.

that's just pushing it...
but if things continue the way they are it'll be a dialect in couple of decades...

The words used before aren't being used now due too much Urdu in Punjab this trend should be reversed by education of Panjabi language
 
Punjabi is now a dialect and not even a language?

In Pakistan it's barely even a dialect any more, parents are making their kids speak in Urdu. Still alive and kicking among the uneducated masses who live in rural areas though.

To be honest I don't know how these things work anyway. Is Kashmiri a language or a dialect? I think states that agreed to partition have forfeited their right to a national language. Not even sure Punjabi script is recognised in Pakistan but would be happy to be educated on this.
 
Punjabi is now a dialect and not even a language?

Its a language, however there are many different Punjabi dialects in Pakistan. South Punjab has seraiki, in KPK they have Hindko, North Punjab its Pothwari.

The British made Urdu official language in Punjab, and because of these different dialects they just have left Urdu as the official language, unlike Sindh where Sindhi is official.
 
In Pakistan it's barely even a dialect any more, parents are making their kids speak in Urdu. Still alive and kicking among the uneducated masses who live in rural areas though.

Almost everyone in Punjab, maybe outside of a few parts of Islamabad and Lahore, can speak Punjabi. Heck my Urdu Speaking relatives who went to Punjab after partition can all speak Punjabi.

In Pakistan it's barely even a dialect any more, parents are making their kids speak in Urdu. Still alive and kicking among the uneducated masses who live in rural areas though.

To be honest I don't know how these things work anyway. Is Kashmiri a language or a dialect? I think states that agreed to partition have forfeited their right to a national language. Not even sure Punjabi script is recognised in Pakistan but would be happy to be educated on this.

Kashmiri is a language not a dialect. And Punjabi has a script Shahmukhi, which is older than Gurmukhi.
 
Its a language, however there are many different Punjabi dialects in Pakistan. South Punjab has seraiki, in KPK they have Hindko, North Punjab its Pothwari.

The British made Urdu official language in Punjab, and because of these different dialects they just have left Urdu as the official language, unlike Sindh where Sindhi is official.

There's a debate about the difference between a dialect and a language, there's a popular saying "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy", so all of these "dialects" of Punjabi could be considered separate languages. Also Seraiki isn't just spoken in southern Punjab but the adjoining areas of northern Sindh, eastern Balochistan and southern KP. provincial boundaries are just as artificial and straddle across the Seraiki homeland.
 
In Pakistan it's barely even a dialect any more, parents are making their kids speak in Urdu. Still alive and kicking among the uneducated masses who live in rural areas though.

To be honest I don't know how these things work anyway. Is Kashmiri a language or a dialect? I think states that agreed to partition have forfeited their right to a national language. Not even sure Punjabi script is recognised in Pakistan but would be happy to be educated on this.

Kashmiri also known as Kaeshur is indeed a language, it's completely different from Pahari-Pothwari spoken in AJK, it's classified as a Dardic language along with with Shina, Chitrali (Kho) and Kohistani.

 
lowkey I think the channel is trying proselytize Christianity to Kashmiris, missionaries be kinda sneaky

That's what I thought too, but was somewhat confused when I saw the description which said that it was made for "educational purposes to spread awareness".

Baad mai achanak pata chalay kai saare HIndu aur Musulmaan lar rahe hai aur waha pai sab Christian ban chuke hai.
 
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That's what I thought too, but was somewhat confused when I saw the description which said that it was made for "educational purposes to spread awareness".

Baad mai achanak pata chalay kai saare HIndu aur Musulmaan lar rahe hai aur waha pai sab Christian ban chuke hai.

Lol there have been efforts to try to link Kashmir to Jews and Christians, has never worked


 
Almost everyone in Punjab, maybe outside of a few parts of Islamabad and Lahore, can speak Punjabi. Heck my Urdu Speaking relatives who went to Punjab after partition can all speak Punjabi.

I was in Lahore last year and they were all speaking in Urdu, but when I pulled their leg about it, they laughed and started talking Punjabi so I guess the language lives on in practice anyway. But I have seen households even in the UK where the parents are talking to their kids in Urdu, although how long that lasts I have no idea.

I guess you can take the paindu out of Punjab, but you can't take the Punjabi out of the paindu.
 
I was in Lahore last year and they were all speaking in Urdu, but when I pulled their leg about it, they laughed and started talking Punjabi so I guess the language lives on in practice anyway. But I have seen households even in the UK where the parents are talking to their kids in Urdu, although how long that lasts I have no idea.

I guess you can take the paindu out of Punjab, but you can't take the Punjabi out of the paindu.

So what's wrong in speaking Punjabi dear lord? Hopefully you next time don't hurt Punjabi speakers so blatantly. Respect
 
Will the students have to pronounce Pakistan as Bakistan?

Speaking of Bakistan, they should get some Egyptian teachers. It is going to be fun.

The Egyptian accent/dialect is next level. Proper noise pollution.
 
Will the students have to pronounce Pakistan as Bakistan?

Speaking of Bakistan, they should get some Egyptian teachers. It is going to be fun.

The Egyptian accent/dialect is next level. Proper noise pollution.

Do Indians have to pronounce "one thousand apologies" correctly or is it ok to say "vun thoWzundd appaalagees" in their native accent?

Don't be silly, obviously the main criteria is to learn the language, accents are acceptable.
 
I was in Lahore last year and they were all speaking in Urdu, but when I pulled their leg about it, they laughed and started talking Punjabi so I guess the language lives on in practice anyway. But I have seen households even in the UK where the parents are talking to their kids in Urdu, although how long that lasts I have no idea.

I guess you can take the paindu out of Punjab, but you can't take the Punjabi out of the paindu.

I was in Lahore a few years back and i heard almost everyone speaking in Punjabi. I was in the Old City, and the other tourist spots, and the locals were speaking in Punjabi, but they all knew Urdu as well, and had no issues speaking it with non Punjabi's. These were mostly poor people, but i was staying in PC Lahore, and there was some conference going on and i heard those people speaking Punjabi as well.

Lahore is a multi ethnic city now, so a lot of people who migrated there didn't bother to learn the language. And a lot of people in the upper middle class areas have shifted to Urdu especially if they have intermarried with non Punjabi's. Also if someone is a Kashmiri, or Pashtun, and they live in Lahore, they might not have the same connection to Punjabi as say a ethnic Punjabi.

I would say that if people know you are a Punjabi they would speak to you in Punjabi, but if they dont they might just talk to you in Urdu because of the demographics of the city and especially if you are in a tourist area.
 
Will the students have to pronounce Pakistan as Bakistan?

Speaking of Bakistan, they should get some Egyptian teachers. It is going to be fun.

The Egyptian accent/dialect is next level. Proper noise pollution.

The only ones pronouncing Pakistan wrong would be a segment of burgers.
 
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