Pakistani batsmen: Separating minnow bashers from the others - Shocking stats!

[Pete Rose]

Grain of salt:

Miandad 42 against those top 5 teams
Salman Butt, INZI, Mesbah, Yousuf, S Anwar ALL averaged 37.

That 36 of S Malik don't look that bad now, does it?

++++
Minnow bashing:

Yousuf 50
Misbah 49
Anwar 45
Inzi 42
Miandad 40.

Grading garbage on a curve will not take pakistan forward

 

[USHK]

The notion that there are batting positions in the team whose job is not to win a match is ludicrous

Malik averages 68 in win average so why his overall average matter if he is winning the matches. You are acting bitter here.

 

[msb314]

For the past several months, I've seen many of our fans lose the sense of reality -- conveniently forgetting how poor we've been against any half decent side and bullying the weaker teams/minnows.

I'd like to clarify what a minnow basher is. It's not someone who averages 100 against the weaker teams.

It's someone who has a very high average against the weaker teams, and is a consistent low performer against any top side, with a huge difference in averages. That's how the separation works.

Let's take a look at the past two years, where some have made "comebacks" and our fans really revere.


Pakistani batsmen against top 5 ODI sides::

Pakistani batsmen against the lowest ranked sides:

Observations:

- Babar Azam is our best bat. Good averages against both top and low ranked sides.

- Sarfraz consistent across the two. Good average against both groups. 40 average.

- Hafeez consistent across the two. Averaging 40.

- Malik: That's where he gets caught! Average against top sides: 35. Average against weaker ones: 76!

Difference between averages: 41.

- Ahmed Shehzad: He's not a batsman to begin with.

- Imad Wasim: 's average is inflated due to 4 not outs, otherwise it's 27. Strike rate is poor for a late order hitter.


Let's keep things real. It appears Pakistan fans and the board has accepted that we're minnows -- losing series after series against any decent side has become the norm. We've become numb against the losses.

We immediately forget the humiliation, then win against a weak side or minnows and start cheering for the same players who fail to perform when we REALLY want them to.

We need a direction and an aim. Where do we want to be in the next 2 years?

Shehzad's stats are subdued by his poor series against NZ in 2016 - which only consisted of 2 matches.

However, he had a good tour of SL in 2015 but SL is excluded from your list.

 

[Pete Rose]

Malik averages 68 in win average so why his overall average matter if he is winning the matches. You are acting bitter here.

Again navel gazing. What matters far more is how many wins do we get from including player who have seen around for 15 years but scrape to a mid 30's average

 

[Pete Rose]

Shehzad's stats are subdued by his poor series against NZ in 2016 - which only consisted of 2 matches.

However, he had a good tour of SL in 2015 but SL is excluded from your list.

SL are regular whipping boys for pakistan

 

[msb314]

SL are regular whipping boys for pakistan

Only at home.

Yes we beat them in 2015 in SL but they were in terminal decline by then.

When they had Mahela/Sanga - we lost to them right, right and center whenever we toured SL and our "ATG" spinner Ajmal was toothless against them....

Actually, even in the UAE - it was close at times and they were one session away from ending our unbeaten series run in the UAE back in 2014.

 

[USHK]

Again navel gazing. What matters far more is how many wins do we get from including player who have seen around for 15 years but scrape to a mid 30's average

Average 60 in win is overall figure of his entire career. You wont find such example elsewhere. He is one of few remaining consistent match winner in modern cricket. Dont see what is the nuisance that support cribbing nonsense nonstop here.

 

[aloo paratha]

The notion that there are batting positions in the team whose job is not to win a match is ludicrous

Vs Zimbabwe 2015: team is 76-6 yet him(96*) and Aamer Yamin(63) and partly Yasir Shah(32) bring us so close to winning the match, if it wasn't for the rain, we can't count this match though because it was against Zimbabwe even tough we were 76-6

Vs England 2016: scored 77 chasing 300 which we can hardly chase.

Vs Australia 2017: Scores 42* to get Pakistan the win when we started to look like we were choking.

Vs WI 2017: I don't think I need to recap this one.

That's 4 match winning performances in 2 years in a team that doesn't even win that much.

 

[saeedhk]

Vindicates my point that Shehzad is the worst batsman to come out of Pakistan.

 

[USHK]

SL are regular whipping boys for pakistan

Pakistan lost to Sri Lanka for years under Misbah.

 

[Pete Rose]

Vs Zimbabwe 2015: team is 76-6 yet him(96*) and Aamer Yamin(63) and partly Yasir Shah(32) bring us so close to winning the match, if it wasn't for the rain, we can't count this match though because it was against Zimbabwe even tough we were 76-6

Vs England 2016: scored 77 chasing 300 which we can hardly chase.

Vs Australia 2017: Scores 42* to get Pakistan the win when we started to look like we were choking.

Vs WI 2017: I don't think I need to recap this one.

That's 4 match winning performances in 2 years in a team that doesn't even win that much.

How did we do vs Australia and England in the odi series

 

[Pete Rose]

Pakistan lost to Sri Lanka for years under Misbah.

Doesn't make their bowlers a godsend for Malik Hafeez afridi etc cast of mediocre

 

[Pete Rose]

Average 60 in win is overall figure of his entire career. You wont find such example elsewhere. He is one of few remaining consistent match winner in modern cricket. Dont see what is the nuisance that support cribbing nonsense nonstop here.

Not interest in wins average. How many series has he and the cast of mediocres won us against South Africa Australia and England etc. you can keep pulling averages in wins and that won't change anything about why we are ranked so low. We are ranked so low because all these mediocre players will not wi any matches against the big boys

 

[aloo paratha]

How did we do vs Australia and England in the odi series

You ask for match winning performances and when you get proven wrong you swing the argument

 

[Pete Rose]

You ask for match winning performances and when you get proven wrong you swing the argument

Nope. I have been pretty consistent. Malik Hafeez etc etc won't win where it matters and I have little interest in that once a decade performance against a top team

 

[USHK]

Not interest in wins average. How many series has he and the cast of mediocres won us against South Africa Australia and England etc. you can keep pulling averages in wins and that won't change anything about why we are ranked so low. We are ranked so low because all these mediocre players will not wi any matches against the big boys

What do you think average in win means? The overall average in win is 60, and 50 if SL is taken out of equation.
You drive hard bargain which even legends of Pakistan failed to impossible expectation? That means they are not legend? Ricky Ponting is not legend who has failed in India in his entire career?

We are ranked low because Pakistan lost all limited series for five years under Misbah captaincy. One or two years is not going to bounce back. Pakistan is back to new team under new captain again. How is singling out Malik will solve the problem for those years Pakistan lost under Misbah captaincy? Pakistan is winning some matches and series now since Malik is back.

 

[USHK]

Doesn't make their bowlers a godsend for Malik Hafeez afridi etc cast of mediocre

Pakistan lost to SL because SL played well but when Pakistan beat SL because SL is pansy? What is point of cricket? I am dealing with confused and bitter member here.

 

[JoniInsafian]

Again navel gazing. What matters far more is how many wins do we get from including player who have seen around for 15 years but scrape to a mid 30's average

Malik increased his average from 32 to 36 since comeback..... Overall 58 average in last 5 years.....

 

[Pete Rose]

Malik increased his average from 32 to 36 since comeback..... Overall 58 average in last 5 years.....

How many times do I have to repeat this. In his comeback, how many series has he helped us win against the big boys? You know why he hasn't been able to do much there? That's because a mediocre career average tells you he is not good enough to do anything ever against big boys. He could average 15O on his comeback but it still doesn't change the fact we lost 4-1 to England and 4-1 to Australia

 

[Pete Rose]

Pakistan lost to SL because SL played well but when Pakistan beat SL because SL is pansy? What is point of cricket? I am dealing with confused and bitter member here.

Sure we will play 8 Sri Lankan teams in the CT

 

[Pete Rose]

What do you think average in win means? The overall average in win is 60, and 50 if SL is taken out of equation.
You drive hard bargain which even legends of Pakistan failed to impossible expectation? That means they are not legend? Ricky Ponting is not legend who has failed in India in his entire career?

We are ranked low because Pakistan lost all limited series for five years under Misbah captaincy. One or two years is not going to bounce back. Pakistan is back to new team under new captain again. How is singling out Malik will solve the problem for those years Pakistan lost under Misbah captaincy? Pakistan is winning some matches and series now since Malik is back.

Now that Malik is back did we win against England? Against Australia? Will we win against them in CT because Malik is back?

 

[shariqnoor]

[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] I think you are one of the few reasonable posters on this forum, however dude you need to stop on this thread. You are making zero sense. And it's now kinda apparent that you have a lot of hate for Shoaib Malik even if you don't want to admit.

When the average argument went against you (when Malik averages 60+ in win matches), you changed the goalposts and said "but Malik hasn't won you any series against the big boys?" Really? Has Babar Azam won you any series against the big boys? Did Sharjeel win you any series against the big boys? Forget these two, how many series did Mohammad Yousuf win you against the big boys? You are expecting things from Malik that can be done by only a Kohli or Smith right now. He's not in their league. He's not that great of a batsman. But he is our best batsman along with Babar right now. No one individual will win you a series in this Pakistan team.

Will Malik fail in the Champions Trophy? He might. But then he also might not. Do you really believe that with only 3 months left, you can afford to drop your 50+ average batsman since his return and put in an absolute rookie who has no experience of English conditions expecting him to win you matches?

Cut some slack and don't act like a bitter phupho.

 

[Pete Rose]

[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] I think you are one of the few reasonable posters on this forum, however dude you need to stop on this thread. You are making zero sense. And it's now kinda apparent that you have a lot of hate for Shoaib Malik even if you don't want to admit.

When the average argument went against you (when Malik averages 60+ in win matches), you changed the goalposts and said "but Malik hasn't won you any series against the big boys?" Really? Has Babar Azam won you any series against the big boys? Did Sharjeel win you any series against the big boys? Forget these two, how many series did Mohammad Yousuf win you against the big boys? You are expecting things from Malik that can be done by only a Kohli or Smith right now. He's not in their league. He's not that great of a batsman. But he is our best batsman along with Babar right now. No one individual will win you a series in this Pakistan team.

Will Malik fail in the Champions Trophy? He might. But then he also might not. Do you really believe that with only 3 months left, you can afford to drop your 50+ average batsman since his return and put in an absolute rookie who has no experience of English conditions expecting him to win you matches?

Cut some slack and don't act like a bitter phupho.

I am going to keep repeating this until its very clear. Average in win is a misleading stat that ppl cling to detract from the big issue that matters.
A good team wins more matches than it loses
A great teams against the big boys
For me the issue is not Malik per se. its this whole class mediocre batsmen like malik, hafeez, akmal.
Now people can chose to be purposely obtuse about this. If any of these guys were good players than collectively or individually they would have won us a few series against the bigger teams.

So every-time to cling to these purposely misleading stats about "average in wins" or "average since comeback" keep asking yourself the same question: why have been losing England, Australia, NZ, Bangladesh etc etc.

 

[shariqnoor]

I am going to keep repeating this until its very clear. Average in win is a misleading stat that ppl cling to detract from the big issue that matters.
A good team wins more matches than it loses
A great teams against the big boys
For me the issue is not Malik per se. its this whole class mediocre batsmen like malik, hafeez, akmal.
Now people can chose to be purposely obtuse about this. If any of these guys were good players than collectively or individually they would have won us a few series against the bigger teams.

So every-time to cling to these purposely misleading stats about "average in wins" or "average since comeback" keep asking yourself the same question: why have been losing England, Australia, NZ, Bangladesh etc etc.

And you're missing the whole point of the argument. Malik or any ONE individual cannot win you a match or a series on his own in this Pakistan team. There are other factors at play over which that player has no control. Inzamam scored a magnificent hundred against India in Karachi to try and chase down 350. We lost. Looking back would you hold Inzamam responsible? Sarfraz scored a hundred in England last summer. We lost. Does that make Sarfraz impotent? Based on your logic you should be holding Sarfraz and Babar responsible also for not contributing in us winning matches? But no, you are obsessed with Malik. Why don't you put Babar in the same bracket as Malik? He hasn't played one match winning knock against the big boys. Not even one.

And if you put Malik as the reason why we keep losing to England/Australia/NZ/Bangladesh then I think I will respectfully walk away from discussing this matter with you. Our bowling is horrible. Have you ever considered that reason as to why we are losing to the big boys or no matter whatever happens, it should be Malik who needs to win us matches.

 

[Pete Rose]

And you're missing the whole point of the argument. Malik or any ONE individual cannot win you a match or a series on his own in this Pakistan team. There are other factors at play over which that player has no control. Inzamam scored a magnificent hundred against India in Karachi to try and chase down 350. We lost. Looking back would you hold Inzamam responsible? Sarfraz scored a hundred in England last summer. We lost. Does that make Sarfraz impotent? Based on your logic you should be holding Sarfraz and Babar responsible also for not contributing in us winning matches? But no, you are obsessed with Malik. Why don't you put Babar in the same bracket as Malik? He hasn't played one match winning knock against the big boys. Not even one.

And if you put Malik as the reason why we keep losing to England/Australia/NZ/Bangladesh then I think I will respectfully walk away from discussing this matter with you. Our bowling is horrible. Have you ever considered that reason as to why we are losing to the big boys or no matter whatever happens, it should be Malik who needs to win us matches.

a team that has a culture of losing for the last decade should first get rid of the the guys who have been there forever and have done nothing. It's Malik/Hafeez etc not dhoni.
We can keep debating this in perpetuity, but if pakistan wants to win it has to get to of these: 'just good enough to sit on top of the garbage heap of pakistan batting' type players. If you want to win more and win big start then forget the guys who never knew how to win the big moments.

But that's a pretty deluded insight that in an era where scores > 300 are a norm, we are losing because of our bowling. Our guys don't even get close to these scores.

 

[USHK]

Sure we will play 8 Sri Lankan teams in the CT

You have no argument. You want both ways where you can have go at Pakistan for losing to SL and dig at Pakistan for beating SL. You are confused and bitter.

 

[Pete Rose]

You have no argument. You want both ways where you can have go at Pakistan for losing to SL and dig at Pakistan for beating SL. You are confused and bitter.

makes sense.

 

[USHK]

a team that has a culture of losing for the last decade should first get rid of the the guys who have been there forever and have done nothing. It's Malik/Hafeez etc not dhoni.
We can keep debating this in perpetuity, but if pakistan wants to win it has to get to of these: 'just good enough to sit on top of the garbage heap of pakistan batting' type players. If you want to win more and win big start then forget the guys who never knew how to win the big moments.

But that's a pretty deluded insight that in an era where scores > 300 are a norm, we are losing because of our bowling. Our guys don't even get close to these scores.

Pakistan was top three in limited cricket under Inzy captaincy due to consistence performance of Malik, Inzy, Yousuf. Pakistan lost all the limited series between 2011 to 2015 under Misbah captaincy where Malik missed out all those cricket series. You have case with Hafeez but not Malik. You are Malik hater which is there to see. You are going to blame Malik for everything Misbah is responsible for.

Pakistan won the series under Inzy captaincy where Malik played crucial part for team. Pakistan lost all those series between 2011-2015 where Malik didn't play. Pakistan is winning matches and series again because Malik is back. He averages 60 in win ratio for reason. You are confused and bitter.

 

[Pete Rose]

Pakistan was top three in limited cricket under Inzy captaincy due to consistence performance of Malik, Inzy, Yousuf. Pakistan lost all the limited series between 2011 to 2015 under Misbah captaincy where Malik missed out all those cricket series. You have case with Hafeez but not Malik. You are Malik hater which is there to see. You are going to blame Malik for everything Misbah is responsible for.

Pakistan won the series under Inzy captaincy where Malik played crucial part for team. Pakistan lost all those series between 2011-2015 where Malik didn't play. Pakistan is winning matches and series again because Malik is back. He averages 60 in win ratio for reason. You are confused and bitter.

i think we are done here.

 

[USHK]

[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] I think you are one of the few reasonable posters on this forum, however dude you need to stop on this thread. You are making zero sense. And it's now kinda apparent that you have a lot of hate for Shoaib Malik even if you don't want to admit.

When the average argument went against you (when Malik averages 60+ in win matches), you changed the goalposts and said "but Malik hasn't won you any series against the big boys?" Really? Has Babar Azam won you any series against the big boys? Did Sharjeel win you any series against the big boys? Forget these two, how many series did Mohammad Yousuf win you against the big boys? You are expecting things from Malik that can be done by only a Kohli or Smith right now. He's not in their league. He's not that great of a batsman. But he is our best batsman along with Babar right now. No one individual will win you a series in this Pakistan team.

Will Malik fail in the Champions Trophy? He might. But then he also might not. Do you really believe that with only 3 months left, you can afford to drop your 50+ average batsman since his return and put in an absolute rookie who has no experience of English conditions expecting him to win you matches?

Cut some slack and don't act like a bitter phupho.

If we go by his mindset then Steve Waugh, Bevan, Michael Hussey, Ponting are not match winner too. They have same cases as others.

 

[aloo paratha]

I'm sure [MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION] is proud of this brilliant knock from the professor against a top side!