Pakistan's Hidden Shame - Anybody seen this documentary?

[Donal Cozzie]

Recently had this recommended to me and I have to say it was one of the toughest things I've ever had to watch. Stomach churning and desperately sad all at once. Documentary is about the topic of child abuse and street children.

Was curious as its a couple of years old now if many people here had seen it and if anyone can tell me if Imran Khan actually followed up on the promises made at the end of the documentary?? Was based in Peshawar so curious to know what Peshawar posters like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] and others think (if they've seen it of course) and if things have changed since.

Won't post the link but the name is above if you want to check it out. To be honest if you're Pakistani and particularly in Peshawar I suggest you do, not easy to view but problem can't be ignored.

 

[GudduBadmash]

You are wasting your time Adrak, our people are professional sweepers when it comes to news like this.

Any dirt and it will be effortlessly wiped out ( knowledge of).

It is a mark of shame for us and we should all hang our head in shame for letting it happen

 

[Syed1]

Byproduct of Afghan infiltration into Pakistan. Very, very sad.

 

[GudduBadmash]

Byproduct of Afghan infiltration into Pakistan. Very, very sad.

By-Product of The Macedon invaders into Asia. FYI Javed Iqbal the butcher of Lahore was not Afghan

 

[Donal Cozzie]

By-Product of The Macedon invaders into Asia. FYI Javed Iqbal the butcher of Lahore was not Afghan

What did the Macedons have to do with this ??

 

[GudduBadmash]

What did the Macedons have to do with this ??

Alexander The Great and his Macedon army practiced this. They were not only bisexual but also paedosexual

 

[Buffet]

Recently had this recommended to me and I have to say it was one of the toughest things I've ever had to watch. Stomach churning and desperately sad all at once. Documentary is about the topic of child abuse and street children.

Was curious as its a couple of years old now if many people here had seen it and if anyone can tell me if Imran Khan actually followed up on the promises made at the end of the documentary?? Was based in Peshawar so curious to know what Peshawar posters like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] and others think (if they've seen it of course) and if things have changed since.

Won't post the link but the name is above if you want to check it out. To be honest if you're Pakistani and particularly in Peshawar I suggest you do, not easy to view but problem can't be ignored.

Child abuse is present in entire south Asia. I have seen folks employing young kids as servant who stay in their house and work for family. Argument is that they will do worse if they are not working as servant. Once I heard a story about young children getting training to beg in streets by gangs. I have seen many children begging in streets in south Asia, but didn't know that it was an organized business by gangs.

Children should be playing and learning, but I think it's not easy to solve this problem when huge population is below poverty. Makes me feel depressed whenever I watch documentaries like you are citing here.

 

[GudduBadmash]

Note not rinsing our ears, we are s c u m was just correcting poster above.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Child abuse is present in entire south Asia. I have seen folks employing young kids as servant who stay in their house and work for family. Argument is that they will do worse if they are not working as servant. Once I heard a story about young children getting training to beg in streets by gangs. I have seen many children begging in streets in south Asia, but didn't know that it was an organized business by gangs.

Children should be playing and learning, but I think it's not easy to solve this problem when huge population is below poverty. Makes me feel depressed whenever I watch documentaries like you are citing here.

I wish the documentary was just about begging, but alas its much worse. Begging is easy compared to what these poor people had to do and suffer.

 

[Buffet]

I wish the documentary was just about begging, but alas its much worse. Begging is easy compared to what these poor people had to do and suffer.

I have seen the documentary you are referring. It's too depressing for me. I was once hired to research the region for investment potentials and I ended up reading a lot on various topics few years ago.

 

[Adil_94]

sickening to see but not unsurprising. child abuse n paedophilia is just not talked about within south asian societies all because of this honour culture. It doesnt help when u have mullahs arguing against child marriage protection laws in pakistan.

 

[Yossarian]

Recently had this recommended to me and I have to say it was one of the toughest things I've ever had to watch. Stomach churning and desperately sad all at once. Documentary is about the topic of child abuse and street children.

Was curious as its a couple of years old now if many people here had seen it and if anyone can tell me if Imran Khan actually followed up on the promises made at the end of the documentary?? Was based in Peshawar so curious to know what Peshawar posters like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] and others think (if they've seen it of course) and if things have changed since.

Won't post the link but the name is above if you want to check it out. To be honest if you're Pakistani and particularly in Peshawar I suggest you do, not easy to view but problem can't be ignored.

Vicious circle. Those who get abused when young in this way, with the society around them doing nothing to stop it, will not see it as abuse but normal when they grow up and it's their turn to abuse the next generation.

You even see in western society where statistics show that those who were abused in childhood are more likely to become abusers themselves as they get older.

The difference is that, in the wealthier environments of the West, society has a number of tools at hand, from application of the law to medical, rehabilitation and social services, that are being used to gradually eradicate the problem. And even then they don't completely succeed.

 

[Slog]

in what context was it recommended to you?

Yes. It indeed is a not-so-hidden shame. Many people in the country know about it but choose to look the other way. An MNA from the region (and from a religious party to top it off!) once said, "This is the culture of our region."

 

[Donal Cozzie]

in what context was it recommended to you?

Yes. It indeed is a not-so-hidden shame. Many people in the country know about it but choose to look the other way. An MNA from the region (and from a religious party to top it off!) once said, "This is the culture of our region."

Don't exactly recall how, but was having a discussion on twitter and someone I know from Pakistan suggested a watch.

 

[GudduBadmash]

in what context was it recommended to you?

Yes. It indeed is a not-so-hidden shame. Many people in the country know about it but choose to look the other way. An MNA from the region (and from a religious party to top it off!) once said, "This is the culture of our region."

That MNA should be shot for allowing this type of filth to spread

 

[GudduBadmash]

Don't exactly recall how, but was having a discussion on twitter and someone I know from Pakistan suggested a watch.

He was obviously a wise man that enabled this filth to reach a wider audience so a truly disgusting practice can be shamed. Marketing is a beautiful tool

 

[Markhor]

Yes I remember that documentary.

One of the most shocking things to watch was the callousness of the elder brother of the young boy who was a victim of abuse - when after being told about how he was abused, he threatened to beat him younger brother up if he returned home as if he was guilty of a crime.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Why are we surprised? Pakistan's legal system is broken. That fact will be fully realised when Nawaz Sharif is cleared.

The system is rigged for the rich and powerful and unless it affects them directly it won't be cleaned up any time soon.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Sickening to watch and if I were to be a honest, this is one of the most disgusting things about our society. I've actually said this before in a post on PP, the only thing that makes me embarrassed of calling myself a Pakistani is the child abuse. It is disgusting.

 

[PakLFC]

There is nothing "hidden" about it at all. Every Pakistani but we choose to ignore it. All these street children have to earn a living one way or another. How many times have people here ignored these kid's when they ask for money? I have so many times yet helped at time as well.

 

[shaz619]

Very upsetting.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Yes I remember that documentary.

One of the most shocking things to watch was the callousness of the elder brother of the young boy who was a victim of abuse - when after being told about how he was abused, he threatened to beat him younger brother up if he returned home as if he was guilty of a crime.

You neglected how he said if he had known of the abuse hed have burned the kid alive

 

[Pakpak]

In a country where child marriages or marriages are common when people are barely 17 pedophilia isn't looked at in disgust like it is in the West hence this isn't a surprise.

I've seen the documentary and its disgusting.

 

[90MPH]

Without pointing fingers at one community it is specifically happening in one area of Pakistan.

Drugs with the main culprit heroine is playing a big part of this problem.

It's a shame and the victims need a lot of support to bring the culprits to justice. The Pak government first needs acknowledge the problem only then can the problem be tackled:

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I haven't seen the documentary, but you have to ask yourself, if as is being suggested, the general public are turning a blind eye to it, where does this indifference come from? Where do the Pakistani people get their values from that young victims don't matter? Is it because they belong to the poor classes?

 

[DW44]

Without pointing fingers at one community it is specifically happening in one area of Pakistan.

It is not specifically happening in one part, it is happening across the length and breadth of Pakistan and virtually very "community" is involved. The biggest problem areas are Taunsa and Layyah in South Punjab though the single greatest scandal has come from Kasur in central Punjab where 400 children were molested and filmed.

Drugs with the main culprit heroine is playing a big part of this problem.

Nope. It's the puritanical Islamic culture that keeps men and women apart, limits people's sexual agency and aggressively polices any expression of human sexuality, leading to a build up of frustration that people then deal with through less than ethical avenues. Pakistanis (or any particular community in Pakistan) are not inherently more predisposed towards pedophilia as one would imagine looking at the high prevalence of child abuse and child rape in Pakistan, it's the hush-hush culture surrounding anything to do with sexuality that creates an environment where people look to get with anything that moves. It's not too dissimilar from India where you hear about cases of 70-80 year old women being raped from time to time.

It's a shame and the victims need a lot of support to bring the culprits to justice. The Pak government first needs acknowledge the problem only then can the problem be tackled:

Short term solution that won't have a preventative effect in the long run. A more open culture needs to be developed which is not going to happen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I expected this to be linked to Islamic culture by Pakistan atheist representatives so it deserves serious consideration. Is this also common practice in other Islamic countries as a result of sexual repression? One would expect that must be the case. Although I would have thought that it would be easy enough to target women in those countries if, I don't see why it's necessary to choose children.

How then to address the situation?

 

[Bilal7]

It is not specifically happening in one part, it is happening across the length and breadth of Pakistan and virtually very "community" is involved. The biggest problem areas are Taunsa and Layyah in South Punjab though the single greatest scandal has come from Kasur in central Punjab where 400 children were molested and filmed.


Nope. It's the puritanical Islamic culture that keeps men and women apart, limits people's sexual agency and aggressively polices any expression of human sexuality, leading to a build up of frustration that people then deal with through less than ethical avenues. Pakistanis (or any particular community in Pakistan) are not inherently more predisposed towards pedophilia as one would imagine looking at the high prevalence of child abuse and child rape in Pakistan, it's the hush-hush culture surrounding anything to do with sexuality that creates an environment where people look to get with anything that moves. It's not too dissimilar from India where you hear about cases of 70-80 year old women being raped from time to time.


Short term solution that won't have a preventative effect in the long run. A more open culture needs to be developed which is not going to happen.

False. Child abuse is a serious problem in several societies where men and women do not practice a high degree of modesty. Let's not even bring up sexual abuse in general.

On the other hand, I can say with confidence that child abuse is not practiced in the majority of Muslim families. If Islam was to blame (Is anything in your otherwise glorious nation of Pakistan not the fault of Islam?), then children in every religious household would be getting abused and you wouldn't hear about children from non-Muslim families getting abused.

Separating men and women is not the problem (most religious Muslims get married young), the problem is the growing disease of sexualizing everything and anything which has given rise to frankly disgusting fetishes.

 

[Bilal7]

Regardless of the cause, there needs to be some seriously strong deterrents in place for this sort of behavior. Child helplines need to exist, schools should be commanded to take the complaints of children seriously and awareness needs to be spread.

 

[DW44]

False. Child abuse is a serious problem in several societies where men and women do not practice a high degree of modesty. Let's not even bring up sexual abuse in general.

Child abuse is a problem in all societies, not several, but not nearly to the extent that it is in Pakistan.

On the other hand, I can say with confidence that child abuse is not practiced in the majority of Muslim families. If Islam was to blame (Is anything in your otherwise glorious nation of Pakistan not the fault of Islam?), then children in every religious household would be getting abused and you wouldn't hear about children from non-Muslim families getting abused.

May not be practiced in a majority of Muslim families but in Pakistan's case, it is more of an issue than it is in most places. The closest equivalent is India but the victims there are mostly adult women due to fewer restrictions on their movements. The biggest hubs of child abuse in Pakistan are Islamic seminaries aka madrassas where it's a part of life. There's something about clergy and children, be it catholic clergy or Islamic. As for the question of everything here being the fault of Islam, it probably isn't but Islam's role in our myriad social issues can not be overlooked if the intent is to fight said issues as opposed to brushing them under the carpet which is what we usually do. Age of consent laws are usually the most threatened the more religious a given society is. A good example is Texas, the hub of child marriage in the US and, not coincidentally, one of the most religious major states there.

Separating men and women is not the problem (most Muslims get married young), the problem is the growing disease of sexualizing everything and anything which has given rise to frankly disgusting fetishes.

Off course it is the problem. The cause you present, sexualizing everything, has zero basis in fact given the restrictions Pakistani society places on even discussing the subject. If it were that, there are many societies where, logically, the prevalence of this evil would be greater than in Pakistan but it isn't.

 

[Bilal7]

Child abuse is a problem in all societies, not several, but not nearly to the extent that it is in Pakistan.


May not be practiced in a majority of Muslim families but in Pakistan's case, it is more of an issue than it is in most places. The closest equivalent is India but the victims there are mostly adult women due to fewer restrictions on their movements. The biggest hubs of child abuse in Pakistan are Islamic seminaries aka madrassas where it's a part of life. There's something about clergy and children, be it catholic clergy or Islamic. As for the question of everything here being the fault of Islam, it probably isn't but Islam's role in our myriad social issues can not be overlooked if the intent is to fight said issues as opposed to brushing them under the carpet which is what we usually do. Age of consent laws are usually the most threatened the more religious a given society is. A good example is Texas, the hub of child marriage in the US and, not coincidentally, one of the most religious major states there.


Off course it is the problem. The cause you present, sexualizing everything, has zero basis in fact given the restrictions Pakistani society places on even discussing the subject. If it were that, there are many societies where, logically, the prevalence of this evil would be greater than in Pakistan but it isn't.

Do you have anything to prove your statement of Pakistan's problem with child abuse being much more severe than all other societies in the world?

Your first post blamed Islam as the problem, now you seem to be shifting it the blame to Pakistani culture, instead of Islam. If Islam was the problem, child abuse would be rampant in Muslim families all over the world, not just Pakistan. Do you see this sort of abuse taking place in wealthy, Pakistani families as well or is it simply a case of poverty, corruption and drugs not sparing even the most vulnerable?

Madrassas definitely have some crazy instructors on board, who regularly hit children. Not just madrassas, but regular schools also tolerate teachers beating the students, oftentimes severely. Desi parents have a reputation for delivering brutal beatings. That I totally agree with. What I do not agree with is your finger-pointing of Islam. Did you ever come across the following hadith:

Anas ibn Malik reported: I served the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, for ten years. By Allah, he never even said to me, “Uff!” He never said harshly for anything, “Why did you do that?” or, “Why did you not do that?”

The authenticity of this narration is agreed upon. So please let me know whether or not Pakistani parents, teachers and maulanas who beat the children under their authority are following the way of Islam or if they are following their own culture. India has these same problems with some parents being extremely harsh on their children and just a couple of generations ago, spankings were routinely handed out to children in the West as well. Unless Islam has conquered the world, you cannot blame the religion for this.

As for your admittance of seeing Islam as the cause of your problems, I totally disagree and the vast majority of your countrymen do so as well. I am optimistic that Pakistan's ills will be solved sooner rather than later but Islam is a solution rather than a cause of said problems. This is a discussion beyond the scope of this thread however, so I'll leave it at that.

Once again, I don't believe that Pakistan's problems with child abuse of a sexual nature are any worse than several countries around the world. The cause I mentioned is the causation in countries where such restrictions are totally removed. Pakistan has its own set of issues that concoct such a foul dish. I don't pretend to be an expert on this topic but the things I mentioned, poverty, culture, etc are more believable than a religion that promises brutal punishments for illicit sexual relations, in this world and the next. I'm sure you're well aware of this, at least.

 

[Bilal7]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/child-sexual-abuse-top-5-countries-highest-rates-1436162

Quite a heavy read this. US, UK, Zimbabwe, India and South Africa are the worst offenders.

 

[Pakpak]

Child abuse is a problem in all societies, not several, but not nearly to the extent that it is in Pakistan.


May not be practiced in a majority of Muslim families but in Pakistan's case, it is more of an issue than it is in most places. The closest equivalent is India but the victims there are mostly adult women due to fewer restrictions on their movements. The biggest hubs of child abuse in Pakistan are Islamic seminaries aka madrassas where it's a part of life. There's something about clergy and children, be it catholic clergy or Islamic. As for the question of everything here being the fault of Islam, it probably isn't but Islam's role in our myriad social issues can not be overlooked if the intent is to fight said issues as opposed to brushing them under the carpet which is what we usually do. Age of consent laws are usually the most threatened the more religious a given society is. A good example is Texas, the hub of child marriage in the US and, not coincidentally, one of the most religious major states there.


Off course it is the problem. The cause you present, sexualizing everything, has zero basis in fact given the restrictions Pakistani society places on even discussing the subject. If it were that, there are many societies where, logically, the prevalence of this evil would be greater than in Pakistan but it isn't.

Who are you arguing with? The guy is comparing numbers from UK/US/SA where every crime is reported and logged into stats. As compared to Pakistan, where forget child abuse, even rapes and killings are not reported properly or investigated. In Pakistan where people regularly marry of their kids at 15-16 in rural areas, child abuse on its own, and people think there is no problem. In the West even the slur of ''paedo'' is considered a very disgusting allegation, noone bats an eye in our country. Children in the West are protected by legislation and social services, but here we have 8, 9 year olds working as nokars in houses. The documentary posted, I have seen it. Its not surprising that they all do it in the open and are willing to come and admit it infront of the camera, as they know it'd be no repercussions. Can you imagine someone in the West admitting it on camera ''hey I am a paedo''

He'd either be killed in his house or he'd be in a jail.

 

[DW44]

Do you have anything to prove your statement of Pakistan's problem with child abuse being much more severe than all other societies in the world?

Your first post blamed Islam as the problem, now you seem to be shifting it the blame to Pakistani culture, instead of Islam. If Islam was the problem, child abuse would be rampant in Muslim families all over the world, not just Pakistan. Do you see this sort of abuse taking place in wealthy, Pakistani families as well or is it simply a case of poverty, corruption and drugs not sparing even the most vulnerable?

Madrassas definitely have some crazy instructors on board, who regularly hit children. Not just madrassas, but regular schools also tolerate teachers beating the students, oftentimes severely. Desi parents have a reputation for delivering brutal beatings. That I totally agree with. What I do not agree with is your finger-pointing of Islam. Did you ever come across the following hadith:

Pakistan does not record statistics of child abuse or sex crimes in general but, from observing Pakistani society first hand and having a reasonable frame of reference to compare it to, it becomes evident that it's more of a problem here. I am not "shifting" blame to Pakistani culture, it's what I blamed in my original post here. Pakistani culture and Islam don't exist in isolation, Islam has been here for 1300 years and influenced the culture a great deal (Indian culture too though to a lesser extent) and the long mixing of the worst elements of both have produced the toxic mixture we have today.

Child abuse is rampant in Pakistan at least and while I can't speak to the rest of the Muslim world, it's not hard to imagine it being an issue elsewhere too albeit to a lesser extent because few Muslim societies are as conservative as Pakistan, the GCC being a notable exception but they're good at keeping such matters all hush-hush. A great deal of it also goes unnoticed because Islamic societies usually accept child marriages, thereby providing a cover of legitimacy to sexual abuse of children. Attempts to outlaw such practices in Paksitan at least have been thwarted repeatedly by... wait for it... the clergy.

You attempt to obfuscate the madrassa issue by conflating it with corporal punishment in regular schools or at home but we're not talking about physical violence, we're referring specifically to sexual abuse of children and in no school or household is it the norm like it is in madrassas in Pakistan.

The authenticity of this narration is agreed upon. So please let me know whether or not Pakistani parents, teachers and maulanas who beat the children under their authority are following the way of Islam or if they are following their own culture. India has these same problems with some parents being extremely harsh on their children and just a couple of generations ago, spankings were routinely handed out to children in the West as well. Unless Islam has conquered the world, you cannot blame the religion for this.

As for your admittance of seeing Islam as the cause of your problems, I totally disagree and the vast majority of your countrymen do so as well. I am optimistic that Pakistan's ills will be solved sooner rather than later but Islam is a solution rather than a cause of said problems. This is a discussion beyond the scope of this thread however, so I'll leave it at that.

The vast majority of my countrymen are illiterate idiots who support death for criticizing a belief system, a legal system that chops off people's appendages willy nilly and stoning as a legal punishment, vote for people like Nawaz Sharif, lynch people on a weekly basis and are extremists in general so if they disagree, I'm on the right track.

Once again, I don't believe that Pakistan's problems with child abuse of a sexual nature are any worse than several countries around the world. The cause I mentioned is the causation in countries where such restrictions are totally removed. Pakistan has its own set of issues that concoct such a foul dish. I don't pretend to be an expert on this topic but the things I mentioned, poverty, culture, etc are more believable than a religion that promises brutal punishments for illicit sexual relations, in this world and the next. I'm sure you're well aware of this, at least.

It's irrelevant what you believe considering you have zero exposure to the inner workings of Pakistani society. Pakistani culture, and when I say culture I include religion because its influence on culture is too great to treat the two as separate entities in the Pakistani context, creates an environment where this kind of thing becomes inevitable. In matters such as these, our culture goes against human nature and the outcome is an abnormal, poorly adjusted society that puts sex on a pedestal without being aware of the consequences of its actions due to the poor state of the education system, especially the social sciences that explore the cause-effect relationship in such matters. Speak to any respected sociologist in Pakistan and they'll tell you exactly how the combination of religion and culture creates an environment where sexual deviancy flourishes.

 

[DW44]

Who are you arguing with? The guy is comparing numbers from UK/US/SA where every crime is reported and logged into stats. As compared to Pakistan, where forget child abuse, even rapes and killings are not reported properly or investigated. In Pakistan where people regularly marry of their kids at 15-16 in rural areas, child abuse on its own, and people think there is no problem. In the West even the slur of ''paedo'' is considered a very disgusting allegation, noone bats an eye in our country. Children in the West are protected by legislation and social services, but here we have 8, 9 year olds working as nokars in houses. The documentary posted, I have seen it. Its not surprising that they all do it in the open and are willing to come and admit it infront of the camera, as they know it'd be no repercussions. Can you imagine someone in the West admitting it on camera ''hey I am a paedo''

He'd either be killed in his house or he'd be in a jail.

Reminds me of the folk who say Pakistan is comparable to Norway etc. because, and I quote, "every country has its problems" and "Norway has high prevalence of depression", disregarding the fact that Pakistan does not keep accurate statistics for such issues and therefore can't be compared, and the fact that the statement "every country has it's problems" completely disregards the fact that the scale and extent of problems varies between countries and there are countries which, in spite of their problems, are objectively superior to others on account of the difference between the scale and magnitude of their problems.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Byproduct of Afghan infiltration into Pakistan. Very, very sad.

By-Product of The Macedon invaders into Asia. FYI Javed Iqbal the butcher of Lahore was not Afghan

Why do you people bring race in it ? Is there any genetic evidence where you can say that persian, afghani or pathan's are more prone to opt for such behaviours ?


It happened in Kasur than another scandal broke in Kot Addu Muzaffargarh.


There was a famous case reported in Karachi's biggest Islamic Madrassa aswell.


I am sorry we ourselves are Racists. A Urdu speaking puts blame on Pathan. Pathan instead of asking him to stop this doesn't discourage him instead he puts it onto Punjabis aswell as Invaders.


I despise millions of Pakistani's who spread dirty filthy jokes about Pathan's. In Pakistan people from Mianwali are also looked down upon wrt same jokes, slurs & kahawattein.....



What was the race/ethnic background of Nation of Prophet Loot AS ? Were they Pathan ? Afghani ? Persian ? Punjabi ? Urdu Speaking ? Bengali ? Sindhi ? Kashmiri ? Siraiki ? Hazaarvi ? Baloch ? Pahaarheee ?


Do we have a right to complain about Racism in West if we have these inclinations among ourselves at our home ?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan does not record statistics of child abuse or sex crimes in general but, from observing Pakistani society first hand and having a reasonable frame of reference to compare it to, it becomes evident that it's more of a problem here. I am not "shifting" blame to Pakistani culture, it's what I blamed in my original post here. Pakistani culture and Islam don't exist in isolation, Islam has been here for 1300 years and influenced the culture a great deal (Indian culture too though to a lesser extent) and the long mixing of the worst elements of both have produced the toxic mixture we have today.

Child abuse is rampant in Pakistan at least and while I can't speak to the rest of the Muslim world, it's not hard to imagine it being an issue elsewhere too albeit to a lesser extent because few Muslim societies are as conservative as Pakistan, the GCC being a notable exception but they're good at keeping such matters all hush-hush. A great deal of it also goes unnoticed because Islamic societies usually accept child marriages, thereby providing a cover of legitimacy to sexual abuse of children. Attempts to outlaw such practices in Paksitan at least have been thwarted repeatedly by... wait for it... the clergy.

You attempt to obfuscate the madrassa issue by conflating it with corporal punishment in regular schools or at home but we're not talking about physical violence, we're referring specifically to sexual abuse of children and in no school or household is it the norm like it is in madrassas in Pakistan.


The vast majority of my countrymen are illiterate idiots who support death for criticizing a belief system, a legal system that chops off people's appendages willy nilly and stoning as a legal punishment, vote for people like Nawaz Sharif, lynch people on a weekly basis and are extremists in general so if they disagree, I'm on the right track.


It's irrelevant what you believe considering you have zero exposure to the inner workings of Pakistani society. Pakistani culture, and when I say culture I include religion because its influence on culture is too great to treat the two as separate entities in the Pakistani context, creates an environment where this kind of thing becomes inevitable. In matters such as these, our culture goes against human nature and the outcome is an abnormal, poorly adjusted society that puts sex on a pedestal without being aware of the consequences of its actions due to the poor state of the education system, especially the social sciences that explore the cause-effect relationship in such matters. Speak to any respected sociologist in Pakistan and they'll tell you exactly how the combination of religion and culture creates an environment where sexual deviancy flourishes.

Fascinating. Although perhaps since child abuse is openly accepted both culturally and Islamically by the people of Pakistan, perhaps the documentary was inappropriately named since there doesn't seem to be any shame so why would it be hidden?

I don't watch Pakistan TV shows but it would be interesting to see how they discuss the blessed practices such as child abuse in a positive manner.

 

[DW44]

Fascinating. Although perhaps since child abuse is openly accepted both culturally and Islamically by the people of Pakistan, perhaps the documentary was inappropriately named since there doesn't seem to be any shame so why would it be hidden?

I don't watch Pakistan TV shows but it would be interesting to see how they discuss the blessed practices such as child abuse in a positive manner.

Any time there's a big scandal uncovered, you'll get your usual hollow condemnation from the floating heads while the clergy tries to blame it on westernization and liberalism in what is one of the least westernized and liberal countries on the face of the planet. Islam and culture is invoked when there's talk of legislation to prevent child marriages (which account for a fair amount of cases of child abuse) while day to day abuse is brushed under the carpet. Attempts to discuss the underlying causes behind the issue are usually shut down too. Rape laws remain archaic as ever, with a woman jailed for adultery just last month for reporting her rape and then failing to provide four pious male Muslim witnesses as stipulated under our Islamic rape law.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Any time there's a big scandal uncovered, you'll get your usual hollow condemnation from the floating heads while the clergy tries to blame it on westernization and liberalism in what is one of the least westernized and liberal countries on the face of the planet. Islam and culture is invoked when there's talk of legislation to prevent child marriages (which account for a fair amount of cases of child abuse) while day to day abuse is brushed under the carpet. Attempts to discuss the underlying causes behind the issue are usually shut down too. Rape laws remain archaic as ever, with a woman jailed for adultery just last month for reporting her rape and then failing to provide four pious male Muslim witnesses as stipulated under our Islamic rape law.

Yes, what I'm failing to understand is that if child abuse and rape are acceptable in both Islam and Pakistani cultural society, then why do floating heads need to utter hollow condemnation at all? Why do the clergy look to blame it on westernisation and liberalism? The hidden shame part of the documentary title does seem a bit perplexing if these practices are considered religiously and culturally acceptable and endorsed by both society and the state.

 

[DW44]

Yes, what I'm failing to understand is that if child abuse and rape are acceptable in both Islam and Pakistani cultural society, then why do floating heads need to utter hollow condemnation at all? Why do the clergy look to blame it on westernisation and liberalism? The hidden shame part of the documentary title does seem a bit perplexing if these practices are considered religiously and culturally acceptable and endorsed by both society and the state.

As usual, in your attempt to make a point you oversimplify an issue you don't understand. No one goes around advocating it or saying it's great but the local attitude to this issue is to keep quiet about it and pretend it isn't happening. If it does, too bad but, at the same time, no big deal, crap happens. You get your usual lip service to the evils of child abuse whenever a scandal is uncovered, which is a fairly usual occurrence, but any attempt to do something about child rape, rape in general and child marriage through legislation is shut down by the clergy who enjoy a disproportionate amount of power relative to their political representation. Pakistan is a complex society with many contradictions, most of which I don't expect you to understand, so why concern yourself with what goes on in a foreign nation that you don't understand anyway?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As usual, in your attempt to make a point you oversimplify an issue you don't understand. No one goes around advocating it or saying it's great but the local attitude to this issue is to keep quiet about it and pretend it isn't happening. If it does, too bad but, at the same time, no big deal, crap happens. You get your usual lip service to the evils of child abuse whenever a scandal is uncovered, which is a fairly usual occurrence, but any attempt to do something about child rape, rape in general and child marriage through legislation is shut down by the clergy who enjoy a disproportionate amount of power relative to their political representation. Pakistan is a complex society with many contradictions, most of which I don't expect you to understand, so why concern yourself with what goes on in a foreign nation that you don't understand anyway?

Oh I don't know, maybe because a poster from this part of the world put the thread up and the documentary is made by a UK television company presumably for the people of the UK to watch?

I haven't watched it yet but apparently it's about boys being abused in Peshawar in the NWFP. I know you have tried to deflect this to the Punjab province, but the documentary maker has pretty clearly directed the film on the NWFP region in particular which has the tradition of bacha bazi (child abuse). I'm sure it happens in other parts as well, but that seems to be the region where the locals seem to take pride in it.

 

[DW44]

Oh I don't know, maybe because a poster from this part of the world put the thread up and the documentary is made by a UK television company presumably for the people of the UK to watch?

Then I recommend you direct your queries at someone with more patience for your particular style of posting.

I haven't watched it yet but apparently it's about boys being abused in Peshawar in the NWFP. I know you have tried to deflect this to the Punjab province, but the documentary maker has pretty clearly directed the film on the NWFP region in particular which has the tradition of bacha bazi (child abuse). I'm sure it happens in other parts as well, but that seems to be the region where the locals seem to take pride in it.

Deflect? I acknowledged that it is a common practice all across Pakistan but, at the same time, Punjab is more of a problem area, an indisputable fact. Again, I don't see why that causes you so much consternation considering it's no different to stating that there are four provinces in Pakistan, a black and white fact with little room for debate. The scope of the documentary is limited to KPK which takes nothing away from the fact that the issue exists elsewhere in Pakistan and to a greater extent in several places. The most high profile cases are from Punjab and one particular seminary in Karachi.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Then I recommend you direct your queries at someone with more patience for your particular style of posting.



Deflect? I acknowledged that it is a common practice all across Pakistan but, at the same time, Punjab is more of a problem area, an indisputable fact. Again, I don't see why that causes you so much consternation considering it's no different to stating that there are four provinces in Pakistan, a black and white fact with little room for debate. The scope of the documentary is limited to KPK which takes nothing away from the fact that the issue exists elsewhere in Pakistan and to a greater extent in several places. The most high profile cases are from Punjab and one particular seminary in Karachi.

I've read a few commentary pieces on the documentary now, and the theories seem to revolve around poverty and child trafficking, both fairly common themes in the third world. The documentary in this case was focusing on the abuse which has become synonymous with the bacha bazi culture prevalent in the NWFP of Pakistan where the practice is almost revelled in. You were the one to introduce the religious aspect ( as per usual) into this as opposed to local culture so I think it's only fair to at least try to understand how the two are linked. Is the clergy in Pakistan approving of this practice? Do we have any of them on record defending the child abuse? It's an important distinction, because it's one thing to try to defend marriage at the age of puberty, quite another to use it to justify sodomy of young boys.

 

[DW44]

I've read a few commentary pieces on the documentary now, and the theories seem to revolve around poverty and child trafficking, both fairly common themes in the third world. The documentary in this case was focusing on the abuse which has become synonymous with the bacha bazi culture prevalent in the NWFP of Pakistan where the practice is almost revelled in. You were the one to introduce the religious aspect ( as per usual) into this as opposed to local culture so I think it's only fair to at least try to understand how the two are linked. Is the clergy in Pakistan approving of this practice? Do we have any of them on record defending the child abuse? It's an important distinction, because it's one thing to try to defend marriage at the age of puberty, quite another to use it to justify sodomy of young boys.

The overwhelming majority of recorded cases of child abuse in Pakistan happen at home i.e. at the hand of relatives and in seminaries so the theory about trafficking and poverty seems like a misguided attempt to link two unrelated issues. That's not to say trafficking doesn't exist, I should know living 20 odd miles from one of the larger hubs of child prostitution in the Pindi-Islamabad region, but it's not the main cause by any stretch of the imagination.

Bachay bazi is simply a name given in KPK to what is a common practice across Pakistan though I don't see how you figure that the people there revel in it considering that you, by your own admission, are fairly ignorant about the nitty gritty of Pakistani society and are unlikely to know something like that one way or the other. I was forced to correct one poster who made claims similar to what you're insinuating, that it is largely restricted to KPK or part of the culture there which is patently not true as anyone living in Pakistan can confirm for you.

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise that I brought up the role Islam has played in shaping the less savory aspects of our culture considering I'm one of maybe three people here who are both Pakistani (not including BritPaks) and not completely enamored with all things Islam so in any given thread concerning social issues here, it shouldn't be too much of a surprise if I'm the one who goes against the popular line and explores the role Islam may have played because the common theme here in sight issues is to deflect blame elsewhere as is the case in the Raymond Davis thread where a poster tried to blame the blood money laws on our corrupt leaders when those laws are, plain and simple, Islamic laws in a country where ~80% of the population supports Islamic law until it bites them in the rear end.

As far as the clergy goes, the less said the better. The official policy is one of silence, or half-hearted condemnation if really pushed on a public platform but the clergy, as a whole, also happens to be the single largest perpetrators of sex crimes against children. Religious seminaries across the country are notorious for this kind of thing with many of them run by religious organizations that enjoy a great deal of political power. There was a case a few years ago where a Jamat e Islami run seminary made the news for an untoward incident which was swiftly brushed under the carpet and no action was taken. That, btw, is par for the course for Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The overwhelming majority of recorded cases of child abuse in Pakistan happen at home i.e. at the hand of relatives and in seminaries so the theory about trafficking and poverty seems like a misguided attempt to link two unrelated issues. That's not to say trafficking doesn't exist, I should know living 20 odd miles from one of the larger hubs of child prostitution in the Pindi-Islamabad region, but it's not the main cause by any stretch of the imagination.

Bachay bazi is simply a name given in KPK to what is a common practice across Pakistan though I don't see how you figure that the people there revel in it considering that you, by your own admission, are fairly ignorant about the nitty gritty of Pakistani society and are unlikely to know something like that one way or the other. I was forced to correct one poster who made claims similar to what you're insinuating, that it is largely restricted to KPK or part of the culture there which is patently not true as anyone living in Pakistan can confirm for you.

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise that I brought up the role Islam has played in shaping the less savory aspects of our culture considering I'm one of maybe three people here who are both Pakistani (not including BritPaks) and not completely enamored with all things Islam so in any given thread concerning social issues here, it shouldn't be too much of a surprise if I'm the one who goes against the popular line and explores the role Islam may have played because the common theme here in sight issues is to deflect blame elsewhere as is the case in the Raymond Davis thread where a poster tried to blame the blood money laws on our corrupt leaders when those laws are, plain and simple, Islamic laws in a country where ~80% of the population supports Islamic law until it bites them in the rear end.

As far as the clergy goes, the less said the better. The official policy is one of silence, or half-hearted condemnation if really pushed on a public platform but the clergy, as a whole, also happens to be the single largest perpetrators of sex crimes against children. Religious seminaries across the country are notorious for this kind of thing with many of them run by religious organizations that enjoy a great deal of political power. There was a case a few years ago where a Jamat e Islami run seminary made the news for an untoward incident which was swiftly brushed under the carpet and no action was taken. That, btw, is par for the course for Pakistan.

I can respect you have intimate knowledge of Pakistan,but at the end of the day you are one person with your version of events over there. Not saying they aren't accurate, but you obviously have a very strong bias against Islam so it makes sense to check your version against others to verify accuracy. While I have read stories condemning child abuse, you seem to be one of the few who are linking it directly with religion. Like in the Catholic church, no doubt it might happen, the question is, is it approved or condoned by the clergy themselves? Also useful to know would be is it only the Sunni clergy who are involved in such practices or do they cross the sectarian bounds into Ahmediyya and Shia schools of thought as well.

The next question would be, even if it is, why would people turn a blind eye to it? You wouldn't if the kids were your own. But then obviously, these are the children who fall between the cracks like the kids in care homes in the UK. I can imagine in a poverty stricken country like Pakistan it must be 100 times worse.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Incidentally, the solution is probably straightforward enough. I imagine child abuse of the sort mentioned in the documentary is illegal and there should be some sort of legal procedure to be followed in prosecuting those who break the laws. This isn't dissimilar to the Rochdale scandal which rocked the UK. At the end of the day the authorities failed the girls and there were accusations of cover ups and fear of being labelled racist. If the law isn't applied then of course there's not much we can do about it except question why.

 

[DW44]

I can respect you have intimate knowledge of Pakistan,but at the end of the day you are one person with your version of events over there. Not saying they aren't accurate, but you obviously have a very strong bias against Islam so it makes sense to check your version against others to verify accuracy. While I have read stories condemning child abuse, you seem to be one of the few who are linking it directly with religion. Like in the Catholic church, no doubt it might happen, the question is, is it approved or condoned by the clergy themselves? Also useful to know would be is it only the Sunni clergy who are involved in such practices or do they cross the sectarian bounds into Ahmediyya and Shia schools of thought as well.

It's pretty much a given that my personal beliefs would shape my opinions on any issues but, at the same time, there are objective facts that do not change based on one's beliefs. By all means get a second opinion though, since you bring up my strong bias against Islam, keep in mind that I'm one person among thousands here and the overwhelming majority of those thousands have an equally strong, if not stronger, pro Islam bias as evident by the example of the blood money laws on another thread so any opinion you get on a forum like this will be informed by the poster's beliefs. Best you can do is fly to Pakistan and observe for yourself.

I don't see why it strikes you as odd that I'm one of the very few bringing up the role of religion considering its not exactly a secret that I'm one of a two or three Pakistani posters here who don't put Islam on a pedestal and therefore don't hesitate to question it's role in shaping our culture, for better or for worse. The vast majority would blame any issues caused by religion on improper implementation or, as is the fad in Pakistan, corrupt leaders, the line of thinking being that as far as the blame is kept well enough away from Islam, all is well.

This issue transcends sectarian divides and is equally prevalent among Sunni and Shia seminaries. I can't speak to the Ahmaddiya since they're not exactly part of mainstream society in Pakistan so my exposure to them is severely limited, having met only two followers of that particular faith in my 28 years, so I'm not in a position to comment on the prevalence of this particular issue in that community.

The next question would be, even if it is, why would people turn a blind eye to it? You wouldn't if the kids were your own. But then obviously, these are the children who fall between the cracks like the kids in care homes in the UK. I can imagine in a poverty stricken country like Pakistan it must be 100 times worse.

That's the thing, it only becomes an issue when it happens to one of your own but when it does, you're unlikely to find out because there isn't a culture here for discussing such issues. In the case of female victims, it's even worse because the notion of honor comes into play and, in such cases, the families usually try to either blame the victim or force them to keep it to themselves. In recent years, several victims of abuse have come out and shared their ordeal. The one thing that is common to all of those cases is how the victims were too scared to tell their families and how those who did were shut down by their families with the usual "what will people say" and "what about the family's honor".

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's pretty much a given that my personal beliefs would shape my opinions on any issues but, at the same time, there are objective facts that do not change based on one's beliefs. By all means get a second opinion though, since you bring up my strong bias against Islam, keep in mind that I'm one person among thousands here and the overwhelming majority of those thousands have an equally strong, if not stronger, pro Islam bias as evident by the example of the blood money laws on another thread so any opinion you get on a forum like this will be informed by the poster's beliefs. Best you can do is fly to Pakistan and observe for yourself.

I don't see why it strikes you as odd that I'm one of the very few bringing up the role of religion considering its not exactly a secret that I'm one of a two or three Pakistani posters here who don't put Islam on a pedestal and therefore don't hesitate to question it's role in shaping our culture, for better or for worse. The vast majority would blame any issues caused by religion on improper implementation or, as is the fad in Pakistan, corrupt leaders, the line of thinking being that as far as the blame is kept well enough away from Islam, all is well.

This issue transcends sectarian divides and is equally prevalent among Sunni and Shia seminaries. I can't speak to the Ahmaddiya since they're not exactly part of mainstream society in Pakistan so my exposure to them is severely limited, having met only two followers of that particular faith in my 28 years, so I'm not in a position to comment on the prevalence of this particular issue in that community.


That's the thing, it only becomes an issue when it happens to one of your own but when it does, you're unlikely to find out because there isn't a culture here for discussing such issues. In the case of female victims, it's even worse because the notion of honor comes into play and, in such cases, the families usually try to either blame the victim or force them to keep it to themselves. In recent years, several victims of abuse have come out and shared their ordeal. The one thing that is common to all of those cases is how the victims were too scared to tell their families and how those who did were shut down by their families with the usual "what will people say" and "what about the family's honor".

The honour thing is a massive problem for women, even western women find it a massive ordeal to admit to rape because of the repercussions so I can only imagine it is a hundred times worse for women in Islamic countries. At the end of the day though, whether women, children or cannon fodder soldiers, they are your own as a society even if they aren't blood relatives. Otherwise it's not much of a society. Turning a blind eye isn't patriotic, and if it's religious, then it's a pretty strange religion.

 

[DW44]

The honour thing is a massive problem for women, even western women find it a massive ordeal to admit to rape because of the repercussions so I can only imagine it is a hundred times worse for women in Islamic countries. At the end of the day though, whether women, children or cannon fodder soldiers, they are your own as a society even if they aren't blood relatives. Otherwise it's not much of a society. Turning a blind eye isn't patriotic, and if it's religious, then it's a pretty strange religion.

It's an unintended side effect. A heroin addict doesn't take heroin with the intention of inflicting harm on his person, he does so for the good part, the high, but you can't pick and chose the good and bad parts. It's the same with religion. Islam was created 1400 years ago and while the intentions behind it may have been noble, a way of life created in the Arabian desert in the 7th century will obviously have unintended negative repercussions when you try to implement it in the 21st century. Islamic injunctions, in my opinion (and that of many sociologists), in case that was not clear, with regard to sexual conduct and what is or isn't allowed are basically a war on human nature and it shouldn't come as a surprise that prevalence of sexual deviancy would correlate directly with level of conservatism in a given Islamic society. Ditto for Christianity though not to the same extent since their rules are not as strict or as strictly enforced.

 

[Bilal7]

The overwhelming majority of recorded cases of child abuse in Pakistan happen at home i.e. at the hand of relatives and in seminaries so the theory about trafficking and poverty seems like a misguided attempt to link two unrelated issues. That's not to say trafficking doesn't exist, I should know living 20 odd miles from one of the larger hubs of child prostitution in the Pindi-Islamabad region, but it's not the main cause by any stretch of the imagination.

Bachay bazi is simply a name given in KPK to what is a common practice across Pakistan though I don't see how you figure that the people there revel in it considering that you, by your own admission, are fairly ignorant about the nitty gritty of Pakistani society and are unlikely to know something like that one way or the other. I was forced to correct one poster who made claims similar to what you're insinuating, that it is largely restricted to KPK or part of the culture there which is patently not true as anyone living in Pakistan can confirm for you.

It shouldn't be too much of a surprise that I brought up the role Islam has played in shaping the less savory aspects of our culture considering I'm one of maybe three people here who are both Pakistani (not including BritPaks) and not completely enamored with all things Islam so in any given thread concerning social issues here, it shouldn't be too much of a surprise if I'm the one who goes against the popular line and explores the role Islam may have played because the common theme here in sight issues is to deflect blame elsewhere as is the case in the Raymond Davis thread where a poster tried to blame the blood money laws on our corrupt leaders when those laws are, plain and simple, Islamic laws in a country where ~80% of the population supports Islamic law until it bites them in the rear end.

As far as the clergy goes, the less said the better. The official policy is one of silence, or half-hearted condemnation if really pushed on a public platform but the clergy, as a whole, also happens to be the single largest perpetrators of sex crimes against children. Religious seminaries across the country are notorious for this kind of thing with many of them run by religious organizations that enjoy a great deal of political power. There was a case a few years ago where a Jamat e Islami run seminary made the news for an untoward incident which was swiftly brushed under the carpet and no action was taken. That, btw, is par for the course for Pakistan.

The vast majority of reported child abuse cases happen at the hands of relatives in ALL countries. Not just in Pakistan. You would do well to educate yourself on child abuse statistics around the world before making sensational statements that seem to portray Pakistani society as the worst offender. Especially, when after several lengthy posts where you have produced zero facts to strengthen your argument.

There definitely have been instances of where teachers at madrassas have sexually abused children - the same has happened at regular schools and colleges despite your denials - but that only proves something that everyone knows: bad people can be found everywhere. What this does not prove however, is the undeniable link between Islam and the sexual abuse of children. Like I said before, the punishment for illicit sexual relations in Islam are severe and there is no religious scholar, nay, even a regular Muslim who will state that cultural practices like "baccha bazi" have a place in Islam. If such people do exist, they are truly ignorant.

Thus, child abuse, whether physical or sexual, has zero basis in Islam. Some Muslims may and do engage in deviant practices but so do some Christian, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Communists, Democrats, Liberals, PETA and every other group of people out there. As long as the group as a whole does not stand for something, it is naive to blame it as a whole for the actions of a minority of its members.

Your claim that Islam's rulings on the segregation of men and women cause Muslims to develop deviant sexual urges is yey another uninformed statement. Like I said before, do brush up on your knowledge of child abuse practices in places like the US, UK, Australia and South Africa, where men and women mix freely, and then claim that Islam is the cause.

You may be a unique snowflake who happens to live in Pakistan and denounces Islam but that does not mean you get a free pass on posting faulty "information" and we should believe every word you say.

Poverty, corruption, illiteratecy, drugs and culture are the reasons why so many children in Pakistan suffer. Not Islam.

 

[DW44]

The vast majority of reported child abuse cases happen at the hands of relatives in ALL countries. Not just in Pakistan. You would do well to educate yourself on child abuse statistics around the world before making sensational statements that seem to portray Pakistani society as the worst offender. Especially, when after several lengthy posts where you have produced zero facts to strengthen your argument.

And? Where did I say child abuse is a uniquely Pakistani practice? I deem Pakistani society to be the worst offender based on how widespread and normalized the practice is in Pakistan, how apathetic the public is to child abuse here as opposed to the countries you mentioned and on that front their really is no comparison.

There definitely have been instances of where teachers at madrassas have sexually abused children - the same has happened at regular schools and colleges despite your denials - but that only proves something that everyone knows: bad people can be found everywhere. What this does not prove however, is the undeniable link between Islam and the sexual abuse of children. Like I said before, the punishment for illicit sexual relations in Islam are severe and there is no religious scholar, nay, even a regular Muslim who will state that cultural practices like "baccha bazi" have a place in Islam. If such people do exist, they are truly ignorant.

Puhleez. You lose all credibility when you compare what goes on in madrassas to regular schools and colleges. Just shows how much you know about what's going on in Pakistan when you make a ludicrous statement like that. There may have been an isolated case here or there in a school or college but in madrassas it's the norm. You basically just made a bunch of stuff up about a society you know nothing about in a bid to make a point that is not valid. As far as the harsh punishments go, that's part of the problem. You can punish people as harshly as you want but when you suppress human sexuality to the extent that Islam does and segregate the sexes to the extent that Pakistan does, this is what you get, unintended side effects and all.

Thus, child abuse, whether physical or sexual, has zero basis in Islam. Some Muslims may and do engage in deviant practices but so do some Christian, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Communists, Democrats, Liberals, PETA and every other group of people out there. As long as the group as a whole does not stand for something, it is naive to blame it as a whole for the actions of a minority of its members.

More obfuscation and whataboutism. Some Muslims or Jews or Christians etc. doing it have no bearing on the discussion at hand. The issue isn't whether its a uniquely Pakistani phenomenon (it isn't) but why it's so normalized in Pakistani society and why it's so much more prevalent than what is observed elsewhere. Child abuse may have zero basis in Islam but Islam's rulings regarding age of consent play no small part in sexualizing children in a society like Pakistan where child marriage is rampant(Islam invariably being the justification) and it seeps into other social issues as well. You might want to pretend that these are all isolated issues with no link to each other but that is a notion with zero factual basis.

Your claim that Islam's rulings on the segregation of men and women cause Muslims to develop deviant sexual urges is yey another uninformed statement. Like I said before, do brush up on your knowledge of child abuse practices in places like the US, UK, Australia and South Africa, where men and women mix freely, and then claim that Islam is the cause.

Uninformed? It's common sense. A sexually abnormal society like Pakistan, which owes it's abnormalcy to Islamic rulings and practices, will develop deviant tendencies to a greater degree than what is usual in less religious societies and that is exactly the case. How many other countries have cases of 5 year olds being raped and killed literally every three days or 10 year olds being married to 60 year olds to settle debts etc.?

You may be a unique snowflake who happens to live in Pakistan and denounces Islam but that does not mean you get a free pass on posting faulty "information" and we should believe every word you say.

Poverty, corruption, illiteratecy, drugs and culture are the reasons why so many children in Pakistan suffer. Not Islam.

As opposed to you, who doesn't know jack about Pakistan and yet sees fit to insert himself in a discussion armed with nothing more than a pro Islam bias and a gift for whataboutism?

Poverty, corruption and drugs have very little to do with child abuse in Pakistan. Culture, however, has everything to do with it and, in Pakistan, culture and Islam go hand in hand, you can't talk about one without the other and for good reason. A lot of the worst aspects of Pakistani culture have Islamic roots and while you may blindly follow and defend a belief system whose harmful impacts you're shielded from in Canada, I'd much rather call it out for what it is, a relic from another time that has done no small amount of damage to my country.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think you will have a hard job linking Islam to child abuse and getting it to register in the minds of the average Pakistani person no matter what the sociologists might say. It would be like saying depriving people of the joys of alcohol leads to a society of raging alcoholics.

My grandmother commented in Pakistan that the Pathans who were working as mistris in the town needed to be watched with a wary eye because they had a reputation for carrying off kids, presumably for trafficking. She was relatively religious, I don't think she saw any link to the religion she grew up with.

These sort of sweeping generalisations aren't healthy about any community but it would suggest that people view it as a cultural practice in a region which has seen it going on for eons despite Islam rather than because of it. It's perfectly possible that it could spread to other parts of course in a morally bankrupt society which is poor. Just look at countries like Thailand and the Phillipines which are basically fleshpots of the world where sleazy Europeans travel thousands of miles to indulge their lusts which often include underage children.

 

[DW44]

I think you will have a hard job linking Islam to child abuse and getting it to register in the minds of the average Pakistani person no matter what the sociologists might say. It would be like saying depriving people of the joys of alcohol leads to a society of raging alcoholics.

Reaching out to the average Pakistani isn't my intention. I have an opinion based on certain observations and experiences that I'm sharing on a thread where those opinions are relevant. This should not be misconstrued as an attempt to reach out to the average Pakistani or even the supposedly educated kind found here.

My grandmother commented in Pakistan that the Pathans who were working as mistris in the town needed to be watched with a wary eye because they had a reputation for carrying off kids, presumably for trafficking. She was relatively religious, I don't think she saw any link to the religion she grew up with.

That was mighty racist of her.

These sort of sweeping generalisations aren't healthy about any community but it would suggest that people view it as a cultural practice in a region which has seen it going on for eons despite Islam rather than because of it. It's perfectly possible that it could spread to other parts of course in a morally bankrupt society which is poor. Just look at countries like Thailand and the Phillipines which are basically fleshpots of the world where sleazy Europeans travel thousands of miles to indulge their lusts which often include underage children.

Culture and religion, in Pakistan's case, can't be treated as two separate entities. The latter has been here for 1300 years and has had a profound influence on the former so in Pakistan's case, to speak of one is to speak of the other.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Reaching out to the average Pakistani isn't my intention. I have an opinion based on certain observations and experiences that I'm sharing on a thread where those opinions are relevant. This should not be misconstrued as an attempt to reach out to the average Pakistani or even the supposedly educated kind found here.


That was mighty racist of her.


Culture and religion, in Pakistan's case, can't be treated as two separate entities. The latter has been here for 1300 years and has had a profound influence on the former so in Pakistan's case, to speak of one is to speak of the other.

Yes I thought it was racist of her as well, but then she wasn't an educated woman and wouldn't have any idea of the concept of racism. That is what those people had a reputation for and in her simple mind it had nothing to do with Islam any more than the Punjabi dacoits who were also rife in those areas had anything to do with it.