Panamagate Case: Supreme Court disqualifies Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in unanimous verdict

[Mian]

Forget about his knickers, its the knickers of NS and Maryam that are coming off. The Iqama has been exposed even more today. NS was actually taking a salary even when he was PM. Ouch !

Let me tell you about another great deep state sazish. Nawaz Sharif is contacting Chaudheries of Gujrat (Musharraf's right hand) to save his family's political career

 

[yasir]

Are these actual sondookanis where they are storing the evidence?? - Its hilarious, These sondookanis were made in what 1850, before the fall of India

 

[Bewal Express]

Let me tell you about another great deep state sazish. Nawaz Sharif is contacting Chaudheries of Gujrat (Musharraf's right hand) to save his family's political career

The best thing is that AZ has turned his back on them. Although i dont trust AZ, any cracks in the mafia alliance is great news.

 

[Mian]

The best thing is that AZ has turned his back on them. Although i dont trust AZ, any cracks in the mafia alliance is great news.

This is Election year and AZ smart enough to know if he support them openly right now that will be the last nail in PPP's coffin

 

[Bewal Express]

Has anyone noticed the deliberate lies from Dawn, tribune and not surprisingly the News of Wajid Zia's testimony. This is a conspiracy from these organisations and i hope they are made to pay for it. I have made comments but they won't print them.

 

[Mian]

Has anyone noticed the deliberate lies from Dawn, tribune and not surprisingly the News of Wajid Zia's testimony. This is a conspiracy from these organisations and i hope they are made to pay for it. I have made comments but they won't print them.

Noora is spending big money from last 1 year to build this narrative through these media channels.

 

[Pakpak]

Has anyone noticed the deliberate lies from Dawn, tribune and not surprisingly the News of Wajid Zia's testimony. This is a conspiracy from these organisations and i hope they are made to pay for it. I have made comments but they won't print them.

Noora is spending big money from last 1 year to build this narrative through these media channels.

Dawn is one of the most manipulative news websites out there. Last year the leaked list showed them along with Geo recieved insane amount of government money so its not a surprise. Eg anything Wajid says Dawn writes it as ''he claimed''. ''Claiming'' something legally means a defendant or a prosecutor is just making a claim with no evidence. So they are making it seem that Wajid is just pulling out statements from his rear end but in truth everything Wajid has said is documented in proof. Proof that the SC of Pakistan has already accepted.

Its just pathetic and sleazy journalism.

 

[Mian]

Dawn is one of the most manipulative news websites out there. Last year the leaked list showed them along with Geo recieved insane amount of government money so its not a surprise. Eg anything Wajid says Dawn writes it as ''he claimed''. ''Claiming'' something legally means a defendant or a prosecutor is just making a claim with no evidence. So they are making it seem that Wajid is just pulling out statements from his rear end but in truth everything Wajid has said is documented in proof. Proof that the SC of Pakistan has already accepted.

Its just pathetic and sleazy journalism.

True and thn they pretend as they are the most neutral newspaper and channel lol. One day this whole dawn leaks drama will expose them too if the whole detail comes out

 

[Pakpak]

True and thn they pretend as they are the most neutral newspaper and channel lol. One day this whole dawn leaks drama will expose them too if the whole detail comes out

They will all get their comeuppance one day. The fact they are supporting looters over the country's interests shows how much traitors we have in our nation who will sell their mothers for $$$$$$.

 

[Mian]

They will all get their comeuppance one day. The fact they are supporting looters over the country's interests shows how much traitors we have in our nation who will sell their mothers for $$$$$$.

True i just hope accountability of these channels owners and journalists with assets beyond means start too inke bachi kuchi izat be lut jaani he ke how they are working on paid agendas under the umbrella of journalism

 

[Bewal Express]

Klasra the favourite of Nooras when he criticised IK, has shown up the conspiracy from the mafia. I want the ISI to deal with these corrupt organisations that are more loyal to NS than to Pakistan. News organisations will always show bias but this is just ridiculous when all the major news organisations get to together to deliberately tell lies to save a criminal.

 

[Mian]

Sharifs and their Uturn from i didn't receive salary to if i received salary so what thats not a crime?

Another deep state ki sazish guys!

 

[Pakpak]

Sharifs and their Uturn from i didn't receive salary to if i received salary so what thats not a crime?

Another deep state ki sazish guys!

''Documents mention no name to substantiate Zia's claim''

What a scummy, filthy, manipulative, lying rag is Dawn News.

 

[Mian]

''Documents mention no name to substantiate Zia's claim''

What a scummy, filthy, manipulative, lying rag is Dawn News.

Bhai DAWN is the so called only neutral newspaper (until you make them an offer they can't refuse)

 

[Pakpak]

Bhai DAWN is the so called only neutral newspaper (until you make them an offer they can't refuse)

Anyone who calls it neutral needs their head examined.

Nothing to substantiate Zia's claim.....unbelievable lying.

 

[Mian]

Anyone who calls it neutral needs their head examined.

Nothing to substantiate Zia's claim.....unbelievable lying.

The other day that Dawn anchor Zaidi was lecturing Amir Liaqat on Twiter on the use of language but same Zaidi had nothing to say about Rana Sanaullah, Abid Sher Ali, Talal and others when they used far worse language for IK on air

 

[Mian]

Nooras come out and defend this please!

 

[waqar goraya]

Certainly, media coverage from some media houses is partial. Even dawn's editorials side with Nawaz and criticize PTI even in the case of Amir Liaqat's joining.

By the way, Geo News came back on my cable TV for couple of days. It has been again blocked.

 

[Mian]

How PMLN is managing media for NAB court proceedings

<iframe width="540" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RngUsf0mF3s" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Bewal Express]

Certainly, media coverage from some media houses is partial. Even dawn's editorials side with Nawaz and criticize PTI even in the case of Amir Liaqat's joining.

By the way, Geo News came back on my cable TV for couple of days. It has been again blocked.

Blocked by who and why?

 

[Mian]

GEO is paying salaries to their workers from many months and their top guys are being paid by lifafas of raiwind.

 

[waqar goraya]

Blocked by who and why?

You don't know there was a great fury few days back as Geo's transmission was either blocked or its place shifted further down in the channel list, in some areas of the country.

It came back after 3/4 days for couple of days on my TV, It is again out since yesterday.

Who and Why.....This is for me and you to analyse.

 

[Bewal Express]

You don't know there was a great fury few days back as Geo's transmission was either blocked or its place shifted further down in the channel list, in some areas of the country.

It came back after 3/4 days for couple of days on my TV, It is again out since yesterday.

Who and Why.....This is for me and you to analyse.

As its a Noora govt, and Geo is their main propoganda channel, something is not right. Are they trying to building conspiracy narrative for the election.

 

[waqar goraya]

As its a Noora govt, and Geo is their main propoganda channel, something is not right. Are they trying to building conspiracy narrative for the election.

It could be anything, including an officer in a key intelligence agency who might have not liked their transmission.

 

[Bewal Express]

It could be anything, including an officer in a key intelligence agency who might have not liked their transmission.

Looking at the way these tv stations and newspapers have reported the court proceedings involving the testimony of Wajid Zia and are blatantly lying to save NS, i hope you are right.

 

[Syed1]

Blocked by who and why?

You didn't know? GEO has been blocked in atleast Karachi, Lahore and Multan. Atleast that is what the Dawn report said. There wasn't a notification from Pemra just the cable operators decided to not air it.


Really put the cat amongst the pigeons of the government, even interior minister Ahsan Iqbal came out to the media and asked what is going on why is GEO blocked. They were concerned their mouthpiece is being muzzled. Nadia Mirza in her interview with Imran Khan the other day asked him do you condemn the blocking of GEO and he responded that I feel sorry for the journalists whose livelihood would be effected but have no sympathy for Mir Shakil.

Hence why you have that thread by MIG today in which GEO is really concerned about Imran's house troubles. They have stepped up their diatribe.

I say GEO should be blocked permanently there should be no space for false reporting and blatant lying in news media.

 

[Bewal Express]

You didn't know? GEO has been blocked in atleast Karachi, Lahore and Multan. Atleast that is what the Dawn report said. There wasn't a notification from Pemra just the cable operators decided to not air it.


Really put the cat amongst the pigeons of the government, even interior minister Ahsan Iqbal came out to the media and asked what is going on why is GEO blocked. They were concerned their mouthpiece is being muzzled. Nadia Mirza in her interview with Imran Khan the other day asked him do you condemn the blocking of GEO and he responded that I feel sorry for the journalists whose livelihood would be effected but have no sympathy for Mir Shakil.

Hence why you have that thread by MIG today in which GEO is really concerned about Imran's house troubles. They have stepped up their diatribe.

I say GEO should be blocked permanently there should be no space for false reporting and blatant lying in news media.

i read something a few days ago but i thought it was just a temporary thing.

 

[Mian]

WhatsApp leak? If this screenshot is real then here is an example of how lifafas send their tickers and news to info minister maryam orangzeb for approval before running them on channel. (This number belongs to Maryam Organzeb)

 

[Bewal Express]

WhatsApp leak? If this screenshot is real then here is an example of how lifafas send their tickers and news to info minister maryam orangzeb for approval before running them on channel. (This number belongs to Maryam Organzeb)

Anyone that has followed Dawn newspaper lately knows that Maryam is writing the articles for them. Even their editorial on the Senate elections was clearly written by the Noora media cell. This is not press freedom, this is abuse to protect the mafia. I, for one will applaud anyone that bans these mafia mouthpieces.

 

[Syed1]

Anyone that has followed Dawn newspaper lately knows that Maryam is writing the articles for them. Even their editorial on the Senate elections was clearly written by the Noora media cell. This is not press freedom, this is abuse to protect the mafia. I, for one will applaud anyone that bans these mafia mouthpieces.

But our friend [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] told us that Dawn is the best news outlet these days, closely followed by GEO. God forbid if one has to watch establishment sponsored channels like Ary and 92.

 

[Bewal Express]

But our friend [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] told us that Dawn is the best news outlet these days, closely followed by GEO. God forbid if one has to watch establishment sponsored channels like Ary and 92.

Are you surprised when he didnt think that Nooras stealing billions wasnt a problem. I will see if i could his exact quote on Noora corruption.

 

[DW44]

Are you surprised when he didnt think that Nooras stealing billions wasnt a problem. I will see if i could his exact quote on Noora corruption.

Got a problem? Never said them stealing billions wasn't a problem. Said you lot have no moral authority to question them since you support terrorist financiers and the army whose corruption makes noora corruption look like petty theft by comparison.

 

[Bewal Express]

Got a problem? Never said them stealing billions wasn't a problem. Said you lot have no moral authority to question them since you support terrorist financiers and the army whose corruption makes noora corruption look like petty theft by comparison.

Never said stealing billiond wasnt a problem, these are your words.
"an undue amount of attention towards corruption"
"selective outrage is directed at petty theft"
"petty crooks like Zardari/NS"
"whine about corruption like that's the big issue"

 

[Bewal Express]

[MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION], this is the reason he likes Dawn- they are just as corrupt.Just look at these quotes directly from him.

 

[Waseem]

As i said in other thread about media in Pakistan, Dawn is definitely better than others but some of their reporting in the last year has been very dodgy.

Their headlines about Calibri font and the twist they gave along with Tribune and Jang is one such example and they did that many times during Panama case. In other words, they have damaged their credibility but surely the offer might have been too good to refuse.

I would still take Dawn over most of newspapers and even their channel is relatively better.

 

[Bewal Express]

As i said in other thread about media in Pakistan, Dawn is definitely better than others but some of their reporting in the last year has been very dodgy.

Their headlines about Calibri font and the twist they gave along with Tribune and Jang is one such example and they did that many times during Panama case. In other words, they have damaged their credibility but surely the offer might have been too good to refuse.

I would still take Dawn over most of newspapers and even their channel is relatively better.

I used to trust Dawn but their desperation to save NS means that i dont trust them. Just to give you a simple example, last week they even opened the comments much earlier on Wajid Zia and manipulated the comments to show that he was lying and even manipulated the likes to make it look like the prevailing view. Press freedom is a very important component of a democracy but this is criminal abuse to save a criminal.

 

[Waseem]

I used to trust Dawn but their desperation to save NS means that i dont trust them. Just to give you a simple example, last week they even opened the comments much earlier on Wajid Zia and manipulated the comments to show that he was lying and even manipulated the likes to make it look like the prevailing view. Press freedom is a very important component of a democracy but this is criminal abuse to save a criminal.

That's what i meant as well, their reporting on Panama case in particular has been very dodgy, other than that they are better than others.

 

[Bewal Express]

That's what i meant as well, their reporting on Panama case in particular has been very dodgy, other than that they are better than others.

When push came to shove, money trumped morals. I dont trust them on anything -They have no crediblity left.

 

[DW44]

Never said stealing billiond wasnt a problem, these are your words.

Random statements posted without context. None of those are denials of their corruption. I see the lack of basic reasoning skills remains.

"an undue amount of attention towards corruption"

And? I have always maintained that there are issues more urgent than corruption and should take precedence. Still stand by it.

"selective outrage is directed at petty theft"

Are you still claiming that the cumulative value of what the Sharifs and Zardaris have stolen is in any way comparable to what the army has? Same question for damage done to the country's interests in the long run. Compared to the army, they're very much petty thieves, which says more about the scale of the army's thievery than it does to diminish the true scope of Sharifs/Zardaris. Your outrage when it comes to this corruption has always been selective and for someone who is something of a self appointed moral policeman here, I find it necessary to point these inconsistencies out from time to time.

"petty crooks like Zardari/NS"

Compared to the military, whom you lot support, yeah. By a country mile. Not even worthy of a debate at this point.

"whine about corruption like that's the big issue"

I imagine that would have been said in the context of economic/development policy. If so, I stand by it. Our economic policies have contributed far more to our current state than corruption has and on top of that, the lack of economic uplift resulting from those policies has allowed corruption to snowball. There is no precedent for a poor country fighting corruption head on succesfully. The ill informed rants of Imran Khan's drones don't change the ground realities.

 

[Bewal Express]

Never said stealing billiond wasnt a problem, these are your words.

Random statements posted without context. None of those are denials of their corruption. I see the lack of basic reasoning skills remains.


And? I have always maintained that there are issues more urgent than corruption and should take precedence. Still stand by it.


Are you still claiming that the cumulative value of what the Sharifs and Zardaris have stolen is in any way comparable to what the army has? Same question for damage done to the country's interests in the long run. Compared to the army, they're very much petty thieves, which says more about the scale of the army's thievery than it does to diminish the true scope of Sharifs/Zardaris. Your outrage when it comes to this corruption has always been selective and for someone who is something of a self appointed moral policeman here, I find it necessary to point these inconsistencies out from time to time.


Compared to the military, whom you lot support, yeah. By a country mile. Not even worthy of a debate at this point.


I imagine that would have been said in the context of economic/development policy. If so, I stand by it. Our economic policies have contributed far more to our current state than corruption has and on top of that, the lack of economic uplift resulting from those policies has allowed corruption to snowball. There is no precedent for a poor country fighting corruption head on succesfully. The ill informed rants of Imran Khan's drones don't change the ground realities.

Your desperation to justify your support the corrupt can be a million a pages but its still justification and excuses. When the country is being looted left right and centre and
You think "undue amount of attention towards corruption" says it all.

 

[Bewal Express]

"petty crooks like Zardari/NS".These poor fellas, maybe we can give them some money to start a small business.

 

[Bewal Express]

Another 4bn has disappeared into Noora pockets.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1400344/s...eing-already-spent-punjab-chief-secy-tells-sc
Obviously this is "undue amount of attention towards corruption"

 

[DW44]

"petty crooks like Zardari/NS".These poor fellas, maybe we can give them some money to start a small business.

Funny how you disappear when asked to justify your lord and savior's lords and saviors occupying one in every five acres of agricultural land.

 

[Bewal Express]

Funny how you disappear when asked to justify your lord and savior's lords and saviors occupying one in every five acres of agricultural land.

I am still here, unlike your morals that justify stealing billions from the mouths of the poor and the hungry.

 

[DW44]

I am still here, unlike your morals that justify stealing billions from the mouths of the poor and the hungry.

Still here and still avoiding the question through whataboutism. Talk about Sharifs or Zardaris when your lord and savior gets out of the lap of the biggest crooks in the land, not to mention funding Taliban and indoctrinating our next generation to their ideology through the school system. At this point, Altaf Hussain is probably a better choice for PM than the kind of scumbag you lot peddle and you have the gall to question others on their choices?

 

[Bewal Express]

Still here and still avoiding the question through whataboutism. Talk about Sharifs or Zardaris when your lord and savior gets out of the lap of the biggest crooks in the land, not to mention funding Taliban and indoctrinating our next generation to their ideology through the school system. At this point, Altaf Hussain is probably a better choice for PM than the kind of scumbag you lot peddle and you have the gall to question others on their choices?

My "moral superior" you have humiliated yourself with your morals which make the alley cat look superior to you. A moral superior that thinks we should be giving charitable contributions to " petty crooks" like NS. A " moral superior that thinks that in a country which is one of the most corrupt in the world that "whine about corruption ", a moral superior that thinks that we give "undue attention". Remember when you ran away like last time when you felt the heat because your moral superiority didnt have have the intellect or the memory of a goldfish. You can only defend the corrupt for so long.
You can be bitter as you like but IK has achieved more than you or other supporters of criminals and crooks will ever do. You are desperate that i care who you vote, i would be ashamed to be voting for the same party as you. You go ahead vote NS, AZ, Tafa the war lord, Pol Pot, Stalin or Hitler.

 

[Waseem]

Altaf Hussain/ Nawaz Sharif and Zardari are surely better choice for PM

Coming up shortly, even Maulana Fazl ur Rehman is better but sadly for you all these crooks are on their way out

After using such trashy language, you will find these people complaining about language of PTI supporters

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Still here and still avoiding the question through whataboutism. Talk about Sharifs or Zardaris when your lord and savior gets out of the lap of the biggest crooks in the land, not to mention funding Taliban and indoctrinating our next generation to their ideology through the school system. At this point, Altaf Hussain is probably a better choice for PM than the kind of scumbag you lot peddle and you have the gall to question others on their choices?

Altaf as better PM choice than Imran.... good to know where you stand, puts things in perspective.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] I am still waiting for those "Academic" papers ... must be close to a year now!

 

[Bewal Express]

Altaf Hussain/ Nawaz Sharif and Zardari are surely better choice for PM

Coming up shortly, even Maulana Fazl ur Rehman is better but sadly for you all these crooks are on their way out

After using such trashy language, you will find these people complaining about language of PTI supporters

It is obvious that the "moral superior" is just desperate for attention. I dont give a monkeys who he votes for, but state that 2 criminals that have literally stolen billions are petty crooks shows whose side he is on. Maybe we can make charitable contributions to put these crooks on the right path. Last time he claimed that he didnt support the crooks but when i showed these quotes he ran. This time his only answer is that he is morally superior, apparently in his own little world he decides for himself if he has superior morals.

 

[DW44]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] I am still waiting for those "Academic" papers ... must be close to a year now!

Were you living under a rock throughout the year? Enough evidence of the military's corruption was shared during this time to convince any nation with a scintilla of integroty to give up on them but this being a nation of people such as yourself, the evidence was promptly dismissed for being inconvenient.

Altaf as better PM choice than Imran.... good to know where you stand, puts things in perspective.

Happily. Corrupt crooks over supposedly honest terrorist financiers who are in bed with the military any day. Besides, Altaf is a product of the same military.

Altaf Hussain/ Nawaz Sharif and Zardari are surely better choice for PM

Coming up shortly, even Maulana Fazl ur Rehman is better but sadly for you all these crooks are on their way out

After using such trashy language, you will find these people complaining about language of PTI supporters

Oh please. Of all people, PTI walas don't get to complain about the language others use. Tgey opened the floodgates with their third class gali mohalla politics, you don't get to go back on that now. Learn to own up to your mistakes. Do you honestly expect me to deal with the likes of Bewal, Syed1 or Mian respectfully? Do you genuinely believe any of them warrant a civilized response? Where it is warranted, Im happy to have a civilized debate (refer to my arguments with more civilized PTI supporters like Slog or PakPak) but with the more active PTI folk here (i.e. the ones listed here, my tone is completely. justified)

 

[Waseem]

It is obvious that the "moral superior" is just desperate for attention. I dont give a monkeys who he votes for, but state that 2 criminals that have literally stolen billions are petty crooks shows whose side he is on. Maybe we can make charitable contributions to put these crooks on the right path. Last time he claimed that he didnt support the crooks but when i showed these quotes he ran. This time his only answer is that he is morally superior, apparently in his own little world he decides for himself if he has superior morals.

You can bet he would change his statement on Altaf bhai being better leader than Imran Khan.

This shortsighted mentality is same as people who would vote for losers like Khadim Rizvi because they share same religious sentiments. Who cares about their polices, education, knowledge, ability to govern etc
This guy would vote for anyone who remotely pretends to be liberal, so what if he was murderer, don, terrorist, bhatta khor.......wow try arguing with such mentality!

 

[Eagle_Eye]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Who do you think you are fooling with the obfuscation? You made specific allegations about army selling drugs as a policy.... it was you who said there are academic papers on this. I asked you to provide it... you have not done so. You still can do so today and provide it here, let's see it.

You do know what an academic paper is right?

If you initially lied to make your point, just say so, I would respect you more for that.

 

[DW44]

You can bet he would change his statement on Altaf bhai being better leader than Imran Khan.

This shortsighted mentality is same as people who would vote for losers like Khadim Rizvi because they share same religious sentiments. Who cares about their polices, education, knowledge, ability to govern etc
This guy would vote for anyone who remotely pretends to be liberal, so what if he was murderer, don, terrorist, bhatta khor.......wow try arguing with such mentality!

You conveniently miss out the fact that I have opposed IK for the better part of the last eight years and exclusively on policy so it's a bit strange of you to ask "but what about policy" considering the painstaking detail in which I have listed every policy of IK's that I oppose him for. Problem with the likes of you is that such principles only apply to parties not named PTI. With PTI, if someone opposes them, there must be a hidden agenda/shortsightedness/corrupt wealth to protect/*insert unrelated reason here* because you lot can't accept that PTI's policies are not universally acceptable and while the majority of conservative Pakistanis may find them palatable, those with more progressive values will not appreciate the blatant pandering to the extreme right voters and political parties.

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Who do you think you are fooling with the obfuscation? You made specific allegations about army selling drugs as a policy.... it was you who said there are academic papers on this. I asked you to provide it... you have not done so. You still can do so today and provide it here, let's see it.

You do know what an academic paper is right?

If you initially lied to make your point, just say so, I would respect you more for that.

What obfuscation? The irony of bringing that up on an unrelated thread and then crying obfuscation - the mind boggles but then I've come to expect such logical inconsistencies from PTI/Army supporters. I distinctly recall you dismissing out of hand enough evidence to convince anyone except the most stubborn army supporters such as yourself, who see the institution to be above any legal or moral considerations. I stand by what I said, while maintaining that I don't see the need to engage with you further on this. You were pointed in the right direction, you decided to resort to attack the sources as I recall because they weren't up to your standards of integrity (read: they negated your position) which seems strange. I don't much care for your respect, considering you also respect thieves and murderers like our Army, so I'll stick to my guns thanks.

 

[Waseem]

https://www.dawn.com/news/1400344/s...eing-already-spent-punjab-chief-secy-tells-sc

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Saaf Pani project has not begun despite Rs4bn being already spent, Punjab chief secy tells SC. <br> (Thank you <a href="https://twitter.com/CMShehbaz?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@CMShehbaz</a> sb! Iss par taaaliyaan banti hein)<br> <a href="https://t.co/mJga0BTOkE">https://t.co/mJga0BTOkE</a></p>— Ajmal Jami (@ajmaljami) <a href="https://twitter.com/ajmaljami/status/983217679476645888?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 9, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


So Rs4 Billion spent without 1% benefit to average person, Shahbaz Sharif's right hand man Zaeem Qadri had included his own brother and wife as board of directors for PSPC No wonder they defend their masters so shamelessly.

But then who cares right? This is small amount, real corruption is done by Army so this doesn't need investigations in the interest of democracy. And of course we vote for fauj not politicians so let's ask fauj about all the corruption first

 

[DW44]

But then who cares right? This is small amount, real corruption is done by Army so this doesn't need investigations in the interest of democracy. And of course we vote for fauj not politicians so let's ask fauj about all the corruption first

Real corruption is indeed done by those crooks you lovingly call "fauj". PKR 4 billion is chump change compared to the tens (realistically, hundreds) of billions of US dollars they have stolen through their occupation of agricultural land alone, not to mention other avenues of corrupt money. Then again, as the saying goes you don't bite the hand that feeds which explains why, despite all the focus on corruption that we've had on PP in recent years, not a single PTI supporter ever bothers mentioning the fact that if we're talking about corruption, it might be a good idea to bring up what is by far the most corrupt entity in the country. It is, and I grow tired of using this term but have no choice, intellectual dishonesty of the highest order. No one's asking you not to focus on NS' corruption but if you're going to fixate on corruption, take a page from the book of the same liberals you lot bash and at least be consistent in your outrage.

You may not elect the army but support from ordinary people like you is what allows them to get away with daylight robbery so no voting for them is no excuse. Defending/standing by them, or lying about their corruption through omission, is as bad as voting for Zardari/NS/Altaf/*insert politician not named Taliban Khan*.

 

[Waseem]

Real corruption is indeed done by those crooks you lovingly call "fauj". PKR 4 billion is chump change compared to the tens (realistically, hundreds) of billions of US dollars they have stolen through their occupation of agricultural land alone, not to mention other avenues of corrupt money. Then again, as the saying goes you don't bite the hand that feeds which explains why, despite all the focus on corruption that we've had on PP in recent years, not a single PTI supporter ever bothers mentioning the fact that if we're talking about corruption, it might be a good idea to bring up what is by far the most corrupt entity in the country. It is, and I grow tired of using this term but have no choice, intellectual dishonesty of the highest order. No one's asking you not to focus on NS' corruption but if you're going to fixate on corruption, take a page from the book of the same liberals you lot bash and at least be consistent in your outrage.

You may not elect the army but support from ordinary people like you is what allows them to get away with daylight robbery so no voting for them is no excuse. Defending/standing by them, or lying about their corruption through omission, is as bad as voting for Zardari/NS/Altaf/*insert politician not named Taliban Khan*.

I agree, so is Zardari's trillions of Rs, Sharif's Trillions of Rs, Ahad Cheema's Billions of Rs, Dr Asim's billions of Rs, Trillions by Ishaq Dar types and federal ministers, Sharejeel Memons etc is all peanuts and more importantly irrelevant since we VOTE for Army to strengthen our institutions and punish the culprits

 

[DW44]

I agree, so is Zardari's trillions of Rs, Sharif's Trillions of Rs, Ahad Cheema's Billions of Rs, Dr Asim's billions of Rs, Trillions by Ishaq Dar types and federal ministers, Sharejeel Memons etc is all peanuts and more importantly irrelevant since we VOTE for Army to strengthen our institutions and punish the culprits

Please give a breakdown of all these trillions. They still won't add up to what the army has stolen through land grabs alone. Gotta love the fact that you list random numbers without context in what is an apples to apples comparison but woe betide anyone who dares mention intellectual dishonesty. Continuing the theme of intellectual dishonesty, you know thr army feeds off of public support, not votes and by providing said support, you might as well be voting for them so we don't vote for them is a pretty lame excuse. Your support for the most corrupt entity in the land while rallying around a war cry of corruption is telling to say the least.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

You conveniently miss out the fact that I have opposed IK for the better part of the last eight years and exclusively on policy so it's a bit strange of you to ask "but what about policy" considering the painstaking detail in which I have listed every policy of IK's that I oppose him for. Problem with the likes of you is that such principles only apply to parties not named PTI. With PTI, if someone opposes them, there must be a hidden agenda/shortsightedness/corrupt wealth to protect/*insert unrelated reason here* because you lot can't accept that PTI's policies are not universally acceptable and while the majority of conservative Pakistanis may find them palatable, those with more progressive values will not appreciate the blatant pandering to the extreme right voters and political parties.

What obfuscation? The irony of bringing that up on an unrelated thread and then crying obfuscation - the mind boggles but then I've come to expect such logical inconsistencies from PTI/Army supporters. I distinctly recall you dismissing out of hand enough evidence to convince anyone except the most stubborn army supporters such as yourself, who see the institution to be above any legal or moral considerations. I stand by what I said, while maintaining that I don't see the need to engage with you further on this. You were pointed in the right direction, you decided to resort to attack the sources as I recall because they weren't up to your standards of integrity (read: they negated your position) which seems strange. I don't much care for your respect, considering you also respect thieves and murderers like our Army, so I'll stick to my guns thanks.

If you recall, there were two of you who made those allegations, and credit to [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION], he said my source is a family friend.... whereas you were going that extra mile with your claims to give it the air of "credibility".

Do you understand what an academic paper is?

so basically you can't provide them, as there are none and you just lied through your teeth to make an army bashing point. Except in this case, I called you out on it and you got caught..... I will keep reminding you from time to time.. don't worry

 

[Bewal Express]

You can bet he would change his statement on Altaf bhai being better leader than Imran Khan.

This shortsighted mentality is same as people who would vote for losers like Khadim Rizvi because they share same religious sentiments. Who cares about their polices, education, knowledge, ability to govern etc
This guy would vote for anyone who remotely pretends to be liberal, so what if he was murderer, don, terrorist, bhatta khor.......wow try arguing with such mentality!

Sadly the guy sounds confused and lost. Well wouldnt you be if backed NS and AZ and thought they were "petty crooks", or thought that corruption wasnt a problem(we are one of the worlds most corrupt countries) and it gets too much attention, and all the while you dont have to justify anything because you are "morally superior". And then claim that Altaf is someone you would vote for while condemning the Taliban. Its like a guy that cant remember what he wrote from one paragraph to the next.

 

[Pakpak]

I'm a liberal myself and I respect DW44 a lot but have to disagree with him here. I would vote for Imran Khan over every other Pakistani leader everyday. Corruption has ruined our country, yes the army has done it as well but the politicians have ruined the economy. If they had even spent 5 percent of the budget properly I'd be supporting Noon League. But they had to drink and eat every single penny .

 

[Mian]

I'm a liberal myself and I respect DW44 a lot but have to disagree with him here. I would vote for Imran Khan over every other Pakistani leader everyday. Corruption has ruined our country, yes the army has done it as well but the politicians have ruined the economy. If they had even spent 5 percent of the budget properly I'd be supporting Noon League. But they had to drink and eat every single penny .

We need more and more liberals like you who thinks about their country and people instead of working on agendas. You remind of Hassan Nisar, you can be a liberal without the necessity to hate army and to defend corrupt politicians

 

[Pakpak]

We need more and more liberals like you who thinks about their country and people instead of working on agendas. You remind of Hassan Nisar, you can be a liberal without the necessity to hate army and to defend corrupt politicians

We all admit the army has problems but when you go after crooks like PPP and PMLN you have to do it before you deal with army. If there was no army ka danda right now there is NO chance PMLN would be in such trouble right now. They would have had the judges killed or maimed or threatened and who would stop them? People like Klasera would be killed by Noon League gundahs and there would be noone to stop them. Nawaz already tried to make himself dictator in the 1990s as it was!

For me my country is above my own liberalism. Its sad to see a lot of liberals in our media eating out of Nawaz's palm. Yeah PTI has done some questionable things but there is no comparison between Imran Khan and everyone else. The guy is the only clean person in our country. I was out of the country when Panama verdict came, I remember putting an alarm clock and waking up early just to hear the verdict, that's how much happy I was that these corrupt vermin were being dealt with.

Despite the army's shortcomings we could have been a good nation had these politicians not looted money. Does the army stop PPP or PMLN from using the billions of rupees each year in the budget? If these parties had used even some of that money then our economy would have been better, That is entirely on them. What I am trying to say is that despite maybe the establishment being powerful we could have been a solid economy. So for these crooks to leave is one of the best things that has happened to our nation.

 

[Mian]

We all admit the army has problems but when you go after crooks like PPP and PMLN you have to do it before you deal with army. If there was no army ka danda right now there is NO chance PMLN would be in such trouble right now. They would have had the judges killed or maimed or threatened and who would stop them? People like Klasera would be killed by Noon League gundahs and there would be noone to stop them. Nawaz already tried to make himself dictator in the 1990s as it was!

For me my country is above my own liberalism. Its sad to see a lot of liberals in our media eating out of Nawaz's palm. Yeah PTI has done some questionable things but there is no comparison between Imran Khan and everyone else. The guy is the only clean person in our country. I was out of the country when Panama verdict came, I remember putting an alarm clock and waking up early just to hear the verdict, that's how much happy I was that these corrupt vermin were being dealt with.

Despite the army's shortcomings we could have been a good nation had these politicians not looted money. Does the army stop PPP or PMLN from using the billions of rupees each year in the budget? If these parties had used even some of that money then our economy would have been better, That is entirely on them. What I am trying to say is that despite maybe the establishment being powerful we could have been a solid economy. So for these crooks to leave is one of the best things that has happened to our nation.

Brilliant post and adding to your post i want to say these politicians created the space and someone had to take jump in handle the matters for the sakf of country be it Army or Judiciary. If these jamhuryat pasand had done there job there was no way awaam needed army or judges to interfere

 

[Bewal Express]

If the army is corrupt than lets elect some politicians that are not trying to hide their own "petty" billions. I have no doubts that their elements in the army that are corrupt but you hate them because they are a muslim army. If a soldier is given land to build a house after leaving the army, then i have no problems as they are putting their lives on the line, they are the people who are making the real" sacrifices", not some guy on his smart phone spouting off craap.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Can you please briefly list the major corruption by army. Not an essay, bullet points would do.

 

[Waseem]

We all admit the army has problems but when you go after crooks like PPP and PMLN you have to do it before you deal with army. If there was no army ka danda right now there is NO chance PMLN would be in such trouble right now. They would have had the judges killed or maimed or threatened and who would stop them? People like Klasera would be killed by Noon League gundahs and there would be noone to stop them. Nawaz already tried to make himself dictator in the 1990s as it was!

For me my country is above my own liberalism. Its sad to see a lot of liberals in our media eating out of Nawaz's palm. Yeah PTI has done some questionable things but there is no comparison between Imran Khan and everyone else. The guy is the only clean person in our country. I was out of the country when Panama verdict came, I remember putting an alarm clock and waking up early just to hear the verdict, that's how much happy I was that these corrupt vermin were being dealt with.

Despite the army's shortcomings we could have been a good nation had these politicians not looted money. Does the army stop PPP or PMLN from using the billions of rupees each year in the budget? If these parties had used even some of that money then our economy would have been better, That is entirely on them. What I am trying to say is that despite maybe the establishment being powerful we could have been a solid economy. So for these crooks to leave is one of the best things that has happened to our nation.

Quite a few of us consider ourselves liberals but we are still extremists, Army stooges and even ISI agents for not abusing the Army or if you support Imran Khan who has damaged the country more than Altaf Hussain, Zardari and Nawaz Sharif in the last 70 years

Our Army has made blunders and their strategies in Afghanistan has failed but it's not entirely their fault either, we have seen Russia, America, Israel, India, Iran, Afghanistan etc playing different games in the region and they all have their own interests and play dirty games like ISI does as well. So it's not all black & white and this isn't ideal world where you have to act goody goody with everyone around you. One thing they MUST not repeat is financing and arming religious extremists who sooner or later will turn against you.

 

[Bewal Express]

Quite a few of us consider ourselves liberals but we are still extremists, Army stooges and even ISI agents for not abusing the Army or if you support Imran Khan who has damaged the country more than Altaf Hussain, Zardari and Nawaz Sharif in the last 70 years

Our Army has made blunders and their strategies in Afghanistan has failed but it's not entirely their fault either, we have seen Russia, America, Israel, India, Iran, Afghanistan etc playing different games in the region and they all have their own interests and play dirty games like ISI does as well. So it's not all black & white and this isn't ideal world where you have to act goody goody with everyone around you. One thing they MUST not repeat is financing and arming religious extremists who sooner or later will turn against you.

But its our thats the only bad guy. All the others are non muslims so there hearts must be clean, they have superior morals and the sun shines out of their backside. A Pakistani atheist will always attack PK army but they dare not say a word against non muslim armies because they are the good guys. This is not to say that the PK army hasnt done bad things or doesnt have elements that have taken advantage of their power and stolen things.

 

[yasir]

But its our thats the only bad guy. All the others are non muslims so there hearts must be clean, they have superior morals and the sun shines out of their backside. A Pakistani atheist will always attack PK army but they dare not say a word against non muslim armies because they are the good guys.

Liberals don't like Army anywhere, Army is nemesis everywhere in the world. Difference between US and Pak Army is who funds them, in case of US, its tax payer, they dare not to do their dirty business inside the country for most part. Where as Pak Army begs US, Saudis, China for funding, we have way bigger Army then we can afford out of our tax base. As a result we have country for the army, not army for the country

This is not to say that the PK army hasnt done bad things or doesnt have elements that have taken advantage of their power and stolen things.

Don't get me started on that, all these corrupt A-Z Muslim Leagues, Shriefs, Mulla alliances (IJI to MMA), terrorist groups of all kind are created, funded and supported by Army all these years. As I said, all their dirty business ventures are run inside the country, that's the only place they have control unfortunately

 

[Bewal Express]

Liberals don't like Army anywhere, Army is nemesis everywhere in the world. Difference between US and Pak Army is who funds them, in case of US, its tax payer, they dare not to do their dirty business inside the country for most part. Where as Pak Army begs US, Saudis, China for funding, we have way bigger Army then we can afford out of our tax base. As a result we have country for the army, not army for the country




Don't get me started on that, all these corrupt A-Z Muslim Leagues, Shriefs, Mulla alliances (IJI to MMA), terrorist groups of all kind are created, funded and supported by Army all these years. As I said, all their dirty business ventures are run inside the country, that's the only place they have control unfortunately

I like the way you said Liberals dont like the army. Remember Christopher Hitchens and his cheer leading for the Iraq war. It was the Liberal Tony Blair that was leading the case for the Iraq war. It was the LBJ and JFK that expanded the Vietnam war.
As far as a well funded Millitary are concerned, why was North Korea not invaded, whilst Libya and Iraq were? I know atheists would glee at the chance of PK being invaded by Ind, but people like Modi wouldnt even spend a second thinking about invading PK, and nor would the Russians in 1979. I rather have a well funded Millitary anyday of the week.
I agreed with your fellow atheist who also hates Pakistan army with passion that there is corruption, but this can be tackled by honest politicians not corrupt politicians and Mullahs. But his hate was more than meets the eye.

 

[yasir]

I like the way you said Liberals dont like the army. Remember Christopher Hitchens and his cheer leading for the Iraq war. It was the Liberal Tony Blair that was leading the case for the Iraq war. It was the LBJ and JFK that expanded the Vietnam war.
As far as a well funded Millitary are concerned, why was North Korea not invaded, whilst Libya and Iraq were? I know atheists would glee at the chance of PK being invaded by Ind, but people like Modi wouldnt even spend a second thinking about invading PK, and nor would the Russians in 1979. I rather have a well funded Millitary anyday of the week.
I agreed with your fellow atheist who also hates Pakistan army with passion that there is corruption, but this can be tackled by honest politicians not corrupt politicians and Mullahs. But his hate was more than meets the eye.

Hitchens and Tony were both conservatives not liberals. Hitchens was a special case, he is one of the most vocal Atheists in modern era, yet was a conservative politically. Tony was both religious and conservative, so nothing new there...

I am not sure if road for Pakistan Army has been such a glorified yet, we are struggling to survive, switching from US to China to Saudis, this upbeat about CPEC is another bad deal, which we regret like the Mujhadeen deal in last 3/4 decades. All Army is banking on few Nukes, that were build by a guy that they threw under the bus in no time. China only care about Gawadar, they want that port, rest is little to no concern of them. Pakistan Army is once again playing with future of Pakistan, without any debate in public, this is no patriotism, but stupidity.

You have to understand Army is not a Industry that can produce something useful, creates jobs or one can build economy around. Its a huge expense on society, unless you have other thriving industries its not only dangerous but fatal business. In last few decades we have blocked any foreign investments as well thanks to Army's war games, nobody wants to invest in Pakistan, our credit ratings are at the level of Afghanistan. All these high risk loans from China have heavy price, this is little to no upside of bowing down to China, why we have to keep finding new master, to fund our Army?? Why we cannot focus on prosperity of our own people??

 

[DW44]

[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION]

Can you please briefly list the major corruption by army. Not an essay, bullet points would do.

There's no "briefly" when it comes to their corruption. You might want to start off by reading a book called Military Inc. It explores this issue in more painstaking detail than I ever could in a post here and I suspect more than you'd be able to swallow and is pretty much the authoritative text on the subject. It's the definitive work on the military's involvement in the economy and it's significant enough that unless you've read it, you probably should before taking any further part in this discussion.

I'll start you off with the most egregious case, the occupation of agricultural land - The military has, over the years, accumulated enough agricultural land to account for roughly one in five cultivable acres in Pakistan. That alone is worth more EVERY YEAR than NS has stolen over his lifetime and I wouldn't be surprised if it also adds up to more than what BB, AZ and NS have stolen combined. Where there's agricultural land, there's also water so lets move on to the next issue, water theft.

Move on towards Sadiqabad and Rahimyar Khan in Bahawalpur and you will hear farmers complain about how the army is stealing their share of water. In the past few years, they have held public demonstrations against water theft, but to no avail. According to official estimates, 21,000 acres of land in these two districts are affected due to water theft from the Abbasia link canal. Out of the canal’s capacity of 4,500 cusecs of water, nearly 350-400 cusecs are being stolen. This canal became operational in 2002 and the army units have made 20 illegal outlets (104-109 RD and 213-228 RD) at Chak Wahni and Qasimwala. Officially, the army is only allowed one outlet to feed its troops while they exercise in the area. Irrigation officials claim that even the legal outlet has been expanded illegally to draw more water. Driving along the canal, one can spot huge excavating machines and dumpers meant to dig the land and make outlets. Taking their cue from the army, others have also joined in the fray. The irrigation officials named some local politicians and professionals such as Asmatullah Niazi (district president, PML-Q), Iqbal Moghul (naib nazim, Liaquatpur), Iqbal Channar (MPA, PML-N), Professors Rafiq Minhas and Nazeer Khan, relatives of a local PPP politician, Col (retd) Naveed, and Brig (retd) S.M. Tiwana as some of those who steal water. But these officials contend that the army steals a larger share and poses a bigger problem. And unless they don’t stop this illegal practice, the civilians will continue to follow in their footsteps. In fact, civilian water thieves argue that they won’t stop until the army does the same. This makes it almost impossible for irrigation officials to stop anyone else.

http://newslinemagazine.com/magazine/the-real-culprits/

Then you have their businesses which are a whole different can of worms but since you're too authentic for personal anecdotes, find someone who has dealt with them, NLC and FWO in particular, and how they get their contracts. For drug related charges, explore the history of Askari Bank's formation. Your best source of information for that would be a book called "Whiteout" by Alexander Cockbum (what an unfortunate name). Won't go into too much detail, leaving you to get that from the more learned authors themselves but knowing you, you probably won't read it so here's a summary: Askari Bank was created around the time one General Fazle Haq was moving significant amounts of drugs and drug money into and out of Pakistan.

Moving on, there's commercial land. All three major DHAs, Islamabad, Karachi, and Lahore, have been mired in controversy though considering the army's involvement, it usually doesn't escalate legally. This is a good commentary on the army's obsession with owning land:
https://www.dawn.com/news/1280186

This is a good starting point. Once you've gone through the two books listed here, get back to me for another reading list along with a brief summary of what it will contain. Till then, enjoy. You might also want to read up on the treatment of peasant farmers in Okara (enforced disappearances, murder, destruction of dissidents' crops etc) but for that you'll need to spend considerable time going through Dawn's archives since Siddiqa's book only goes as far as 2007 and the juiciest stuff all happened in the last five or six years. I guess this should be enough to keep you occupied for a while.

 

[DW44]

Another excellent summary for those unlikely to pick up an actual book:

In the local media, Pakistan's army chief Raheel Sharif is being hailed as a "leader" who wants to eradicate corruption in the South Asian country. Last week, the general insisted that the battle against terrorism and corruption must go hand in hand. On Thursday, April 21, General Sharif dismissed six military officers, including two high-ranking generals, over allegations of corruption, thus proving that he is committed to his stance on financial irregularities.

It is an unprecedented move in the Islamic country, which was directly ruled by the military for a total of 35 years after the nation's independence. And the military still has the final say in matters related to defense, security and foreign policies.

The dismissal of army officers – who are not being tried for corruption, but have only been sent into early retirement – comes at a time when the civilian politicians are facing huge criticism over their own monetary corruption.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is facing one of the biggest political challenges of his tenure. The leaked Panama documents mentioned his family's ownership of offshore companies. Though the PM and his son deny any wrongdoing, there is a huge uproar in Pakistan, with opposition parties demanding his resignation, claiming the premier evaded taxes through these firms. On April 5, Sharif addressed the nation on television and announced that he was forming a judicial commission to investigate the allegations.

Now, after the removal of army officers in corruption cases, PM Sharif is under more pressure to come out clean in the Panama Papers' scandal.

"The army chief's decision to dismiss some high-ranking officers is an extraordinary step. It is a clear signal to politicians and other state institutions that they also need to put their house in order," Talat Masood, a former army general and defense analyst, told DW.
"Raheel Sharif has proven that he won't tolerate corruption. There is a bigger moral pressure on the politicians now," the analyst added.

The public opinion is rapidly turning against the premier, who, according to experts, needs to do something very quickly to thwart the crisis. At the same time, General Sharif is once again being hailed by many Pakistanis as a "messiah," who put the country on the path of prosperity.
Military's financial corruption
But critics of the army say that the dismissal of six army officers cannot sufficiently address the issue of military's massive financial corruption, which usually goes unnoticed. The Pakistani military keeps a lion's share of the country's budget and is not answerable to the civilian government over its expenditures, they say. Rights activists also assert that the fact that the army chief removed officers over corruption charges is proof that the military is not a "holy cow" as many in the country would like to believe.

"The corruption in the Pakistani military is as rampant as in any other state institution," Arif Jamal, a US-based Islamism and security analyst, told DW. "The army is involved in the smuggling of oil and narcotics through the borders of the western Balochistan province. The military also makes money through its checkpoints in the restive province. All drivers have to bribe the officers to pass through these posts. These are just a few examples," Jamal added.

Farooq Tariq, a leader of the socialist Awami Workers Party, claims the military's financial corruption goes beyond Balochistan: "The Pakistani army is involved in all spheres of the economy. It is running businesses all across the country, from marriage halls to factories, and from banks and insurance companies to dairy farms. Does the constitution allow this? Isn't it corruption as well," questioned Tariq.

"We must not forget that while people are celebrating General Sharif's 'resolve against corruption,' his army is cracking down on poor farmers in the Punjab's Okara region, trying to dispose them of their lands. Hundreds of cases have been registered against the military officers, yet the civilian administration has no authority to even interrogate them," Tariq said.

According to Tauseef Ahmed, an Islamabad-based political analyst, the military's financial corruption is no secret, but it is impossible for the civilian government to take action against army officers.

"Some time ago, Senator Farhatullah Babar told the Senate about 20 companies that are being run by the army. The Supreme Court passed a judgment against the army-administered Defense Housing Authority for encroaching lands across the country," Ahmed told DW. "In Karachi, the military-run Faziya housing scheme pumped millions of rupees into advertisements, prompting people to invest in housing. Later, the people lost all their money as it turned out that the land only existed on papers," Ahmed added.

Above the law?

The activists also decry the Pakistani military's alleged lack of respect for the rule of law. Last month, former military dictator, Pervez Musharraf, who is facing multiple charges in Pakistani courts, was allowed to leave the country to seek medical treatment abroad. Considering the nature of the cases against Musharraf, it should not have been that easy for him to exit Pakistan. The former general is accused of treason, and involvement in the 2007 assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

Analysts say it all comes down to the fact that Musharraf was a former military chief, and it was just a matter of time before he would be sent abroad.

"The military does not want to set a precedent where its officers are held accountable by the civilians," Usman Qazi, an Islamabad-based UN adviser, told DW.

"How can General Raheel Sharif talk about accountability of politicians when his own institution supported Musharraf whole-heartedly, facilitating his way out of the country?" Ahmed underlined.

Analyst Jamal finds a silver-lining for the politicians in the whole situation.
"The good thing about the dismissal of the army officers is that General Sharif's decision establishes that there is a lot of corruption in the Pakistani military," he said, adding that for the sake of transparency, the Pakistani military must give official details about each officer who were sacked.

"The punishments like dismissal from service or premature retirement with all privileges for proven corruption are too little and too late. For similar crimes, the politicians have been sent to jail. Former President Asif Ali Zardari spent many years behind bars for the alleged crimes that the military could never prove."

http://www.dw.com/en/a-spotlight-on-the-pakistani-militarys-corruption/a-19207488

Couple of questions:
- Why does the military run, among other things, dairy farms, breakfast cereal factories, construction firms and luxury golf resorts?
- Is there any country other than Egypt where the military exercises this degree of control over the economy?
- Do they not already have enough land that they're still strong arming small time peasants to take over their land?
- Are we ever likely to see the kind of outrage and subsequent accountability process for the military that we saw for Panama - Anyone who answers along the lines of "yes" or "in due time" is either supremely ignorant or lying through their teeth.

 

[Bewal Express]

Hitchens and Tony were both conservatives not liberals. Hitchens was a special case, he is one of the most vocal Atheists in modern era, yet was a conservative politically. Tony was both religious and conservative, so nothing new there...

I am not sure if road for Pakistan Army has been such a glorified yet, we are struggling to survive, switching from US to China to Saudis, this upbeat about CPEC is another bad deal, which we regret like the Mujhadeen deal in last 3/4 decades. All Army is banking on few Nukes, that were build by a guy that they threw under the bus in no time. China only care about Gawadar, they want that port, rest is little to no concern of them. Pakistan Army is once again playing with future of Pakistan, without any debate in public, this is no patriotism, but stupidity.

You have to understand Army is not a Industry that can produce something useful, creates jobs or one can build economy around. Its a huge expense on society, unless you have other thriving industries its not only dangerous but fatal business. In last few decades we have blocked any foreign investments as well thanks to Army's war games, nobody wants to invest in Pakistan, our credit ratings are at the level of Afghanistan. All these high risk loans from China have heavy price, this is little to no upside of bowing down to China, why we have to keep finding new master, to fund our Army?? Why we cannot focus on prosperity of our own people??

What do you define as Conservative? A conservative in the UK would be like a Centrist Democrat in America and an Anerican Conservative would be close to the lunatic fringe in the UK. Neither Blair or Hitchens were Conservative, but both moved right wards with time, for example Blair introduced same Sex Unions in the UK , how many Conservatives even today both in the UK and USA are comfortable with them even today, never mind baçk then. The conservative govt that introduced Same sex marriages wanted to show its Centrist Credentials and capture the Liberal vote.
A few Nukes is more than enough( even one is enough) to keep the enemies at bay. As i have said before, you would hate the PK army because of its Islamic ideology and for you to tell us otherwise is disingenuous. I take your point on corruption in the army but you lost all crediblity when you called billionaire crooks like AZ/ NS as petty crooks, or corruption is given far too much attention. All corruption is destructive and corruption by the Army is just as destructive but the only way to tackle corruption is to have people in govt who themselves are not desperate to hide their loot. IK is that guy!

 

[Waseem]

What do you define as Conservative? A conservative in the UK would be like a Centrist Democrat in America and an Anerican Conservative would be close to the lunatic fringe in the UK. Neither Blair or Hitchens were Conservative, but both moved right wards with time, for example Blair introduced same Sex Unions in the UK , how many Conservatives even today both in the UK and USA are comfortable with them even today, never mind baçk then. The conservative govt that introduced Same sex marriages wanted to show its Centrist Credentials and capture the Liberal vote.
A few Nukes is more than enough( even one is enough) to keep the enemies at bay. As i have said before, you would hate the PK army because of its Islamic ideology and for you to tell us otherwise is disingenuous. I take your point on corruption in the army but you lost all crediblity when you called billionaire crooks like AZ/ NS as petty crooks, or corruption is given far too much attention. All corruption is destructive and corruption by the Army is just as destructive but the only way to tackle corruption is to have people in govt who themselves are not desperate to hide their loot. IK is that guy!

Exactly, not going to get anywhere by crying "corruption corruption". If Army gets involved in corruption then what is the solution? When you have crooks ruling the country, they would never care how much corruption Army or people around them do. There is a reason they have guys like Malik Riaz and Mansha in pockets as well.

 

[Mian]

hahaha!
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="ur" dir="rtl">لندن فلیٹ میں پہلے سے رہتے تھے، خریدے 2006 میں تھے، مریم نواز</p>— Geo News Urdu (@geonews_urdu) <a href="https://twitter.com/geonews_urdu/status/983743686596055040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 10, 2018</a></blockquote>
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[yasir]

What do you define as Conservative? A conservative in the UK would be like a Centrist Democrat in America and an Anerican Conservative would be close to the lunatic fringe in the UK. Neither Blair or Hitchens were Conservative, but both moved right wards with time, for example Blair introduced same Sex Unions in the UK , how many Conservatives even today both in the UK and USA are comfortable with them even today, never mind baçk then. The conservative govt that introduced Same sex marriages wanted to show its Centrist Credentials and capture the Liberal vote.

Conservative and liberals are relative terms, not something absolute. Standard of liberals and conservatives varies greatly with time and space. For instance many liberals in history could be considered ultra conservative if you judge them by today's standard, similarly the most liberal in Pakistan, who are still very careful about conservative traditions, don't really go after them. Generally Europe is more liberal than America, UK center is on the left side in US, even within US left down south is still on right side

A few Nukes is more than enough( even one is enough) to keep the enemies at bay. As i have said before, you would hate the PK army because of its Islamic ideology and for you to tell us otherwise is disingenuous. I take your point on corruption in the army but you lost all crediblity when you called billionaire crooks like AZ/ NS as petty crooks, or corruption is given far too much attention. All corruption is destructive and corruption by the Army is just as destructive but the only way to tackle corruption is to have people in govt who themselves are not desperate to hide their loot. IK is that guy!

If few Nukes are enough, why not cut down on the soldiers? - Why we need 800K Army, cut it to 300K, focus on R&D and get rid of foot soldiers and generals, Pakistan Army is still 85% traditional Army, as oppose to US which is 1/3 of each, marine, foot and air force. Reality is Army has too many political ventures, its inefficient and imbalance Army.

I have problem with every Army, weather it is islamic or communistic or capitalist Army. It is a huge burden on society. Army is not necessary for national security or progress, Japan and Germany would not have been in G7, if Army was so essential. They out source defense (or force to do so) to US and spend all their energies on prosperity. Germany is chief Architect of EU, had get back their land, without any war. Look at Korea, who took 5 year plan from us, back in 1965, they are way ahead then us now...Russia lost Cold War because of spending too much on defense, those nukes and Million plus soldiers did nothinf

In 21C nobody is going to occupy any country, you have to be stupid to do so, economy is way more important than Army, Pakistan had it backwards. Just to build Army we are risking too much, we are in debt thanks to 50 years of blind investment in Army, its way beyond our means. Now China is giving us high risk loans, which we will definitely fail to pay, its pretty much given Gawadar is leased to China for 40 years...In last 40 years, since we had Nuke program, we have only gone down as a nation, we are more vulnerable than ever, keep spending on Army has not made us secure, all we have done is made us Silicon Valley of Terror, that has devastated the economy and made us more like North Korea, Afghanistan rather than Japan and Germany. I don't see any upside of this army and religion high horse vision. Forget about ideological difference, did it bring prosperity to the society? How we can measure success of this vision? What will make us change the coarse?

 

[Bewal Express]

Conservative and liberals are relative terms, not something absolute. Standard of liberals and conservatives varies greatly with time and space. For instance many liberals in history could be considered ultra conservative if you judge them by today's standard, similarly the most liberal in Pakistan, who are still very careful about conservative traditions, don't really go after them. Generally Europe is more liberal than America, UK center is on the left side in US, even within US left down south is still on right side







If few Nukes are enough, why not cut down on the soldiers? - Why we need 800K Army, cut it to 300K, focus on R&D and get rid of foot soldiers and generals, Pakistan Army is still 85% traditional Army, as oppose to US which is 1/3 of each, marine, foot and air force. Reality is Army has too many political ventures, its inefficient and imbalance Army.

I have problem with every Army, weather it is islamic or communistic or capitalist Army. It is a huge burden on society. Army is not necessary for national security or progress, Japan and Germany would not have been in G7, if Army was so essential. They out source defense (or force to do so) to US and spend all their energies on prosperity. Germany is chief Architect of EU, had get back their land, without any war. Look at Korea, who took 5 year plan from us, back in 1965, they are way ahead then us now...Russia lost Cold War because of spending too much on defense, those nukes and Million plus soldiers did nothinf

In 21C nobody is going to occupy any country, you have to be stupid to do so, economy is way more important than Army, Pakistan had it backwards. Just to build Army we are risking too much, we are in debt thanks to 50 years of blind investment in Army, its way beyond our means. Now China is giving us high risk loans, which we will definitely fail to pay, its pretty much given Gawadar is leased to China for 40 years...In last 40 years, since we had Nuke program, we have only gone down as a nation, we are more vulnerable than ever, keep spending on Army has not made us secure, all we have done is made us Silicon Valley of Terror, that has devastated the economy and made us more like North Korea, Afghanistan rather than Japan and Germany. I don't see any upside of this army and religion high horse vision. Forget about ideological difference, did it bring prosperity to the society? How we can measure success of this vision? What will make us change the coarse?

You dont have to lecture me what a Liberal is, i was more than interested in Politics back in my student days. It was your point about Liberals not wanting wars that i took exception to and as pointed out people like Hitchens loved by Liberals but were the cheerleaders for the Iraq disaster.

Nuclear weapons are a last resort deterrent but large army is still needed for conventional wars, but i agree with you that even with the threats, our army needs to be leaner.
Germany and Japan are protected by the Americans, if they weren't, i can assure they would have large armies and Nuclear weapons. I dont buy into the fact that countries wont invade others. Do you think that the Israelis wouldn't invade their neighbours for religious reasons and vice versa. Its in the human condition to dominate, through history its happened and if you are weak, you will get taken over. Just look at Russia taking over the Crimea and desperation to dominate Eastern Europe.
It alway interests me why some( not all ) PK atheists hate the PK army, we have guys on here that will call billions stolen by crooked politicians as petty but save all their venom for corruption by the army.
I do agree with your points about CPEC, its seems the deal is too opaque and the loans favour the Chinese too much. It will however provide opportunities but do we have the enterprise and work ethic to take advantage.

 

[Pakpak]

[MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] Dawn with more nonsense today with their reporting. Honestly if a layman, who has had no knowledge of everything that went down last year, read it they'd think Wajid Zia is a fraudster who dreamt up fantasies against an innocent party.

Calling it manipulative is a big understatement. Its downright pathetic.

 

[Mian]

[MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] Dawn with more nonsense today with their reporting. Honestly if a layman, who has had no knowledge of everything that went down last year, read it they'd think Wajid Zia is a fraudster who dreamt up fantasies against an innocent party.

Calling it manipulative is a big understatement. Its downright pathetic.

True although judge is going to give verdict based on evidence instead of media reporting but still these puppet newspapers and channels are making a difference by building a narrative in favor of Sharifs