Paris Bataclan shootings trial: Salah Abdeslam guilty as historic trial ends

[Donal Cozzie]

Bro, my flag is Netherlands. I'm based in UK. But value your concern.

Unfortunately my friends' friend passed away during the shootings - horrific news and horrific scenes. Paris is stunned in silence and the confidence to go out is even more insecure for the civilians there.

Oops, could've sworn you were French!

Sorry man

 

[WC-Passion]

Bro, my flag is Netherlands. I'm based in UK. But value your concern.

Unfortunately my friends' friend passed away during the shootings - horrific news and horrific scenes. Paris is stunned in silence and the confidence to go out is even more insecure for the civilians there.

That must feel terrible!

Feel so sorry for you man. R I P.

 

[jaguarjack]

only a matter of time I guess..

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/15/middleeast/france-announces-raqqa-airstrikes-on-isis/index.html

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

For years France has fought against Christian clergy/nobility. Can any resident historian give examples of the French getting blowback from the catholic community?

If Catholics are okay with France fighting their clergy/nobility then that is their choice. It's not dissimilar to Pakistan army fighting the clergy and religious insurgents in Pakistan. In either case it is going to be the same. You fight a war and you batten down for the blowback. That's just how the world works.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Utter BS.
1. France is anti show of any religious symbols in public life or school. Irrespective of religion (be it christanity, islam or sikhism) you are discouraged from displaying religious symbols in public. Just as they banned the islamic headscarf in schools, turbans for sikhs and crossed for catholics was not allowed to be displayed in schools.

If you want to wear your headscarf or cross or turban, then get the fook out of france and live somewhere its allowed. The French will not and should not change their culture for some retards.

2. Charlie Hebedo criticises everyone, be it blacks, jews, pope or islam. Again, French way of life, and nothing wrong with it. If you can't take criticism, then its your problem

3. Pork - Pork is served in all french schools, and the french have some delicious pork recipes. Pork has always been a part of school lunches. It was not brought in due to a bunch of muslims suddenly arriving at french schools. It was the muslims who demanded its ban.
If eating pork hurts your religious sentiments, then dont eat. If you dont want to go to school that serves pork, then go somewhere else. Or else, why not go and live somewhere pork is banned!

Having lived in France, I love the french way of life. The French are fiercely proud about it, and they should be. If you dont agree, get the hell out!

I don't really disagree with any of that. I have said the same about our Sikh community in the UK to be fair. Maybe France needs to ethnically cleanse it's Muslim population and see if that improves matters. I would certainly be an interested observer a short distance away in the UK to see how that panned out.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That is a boat load of poppycock.

First off, it is the muslims of France who started the hardline behaviour, not any of the French. It is the muslims who came up with demands for pork to be kept off school menus in areas where they were in considerable numbers. The most problematic neighbourhoods in France are those where arab and muslim immigrants live in large numbers. They are known to set fire to schools, indulge in vandalism and declare no-go areas for others. The French never did all this.

The very fact that France has western Europe's largest Muslim population should tell you how liberal the French have been.

Unlike the British, who are wallowing in self-regret about what their ancestors did in their now non-existent empire and are turning a blind eye to any atrocity that their minorities may commit, the French are a proud lot who like to keep their country and follow their culture. That may be wrong according to some socialist idiots but right in the overall scheme of things.

I sincerely hope these Paris attacks put an end to the tolerance given to the thuggery by the ethnic minorities in the name of 'political correctness'.

Why would you want to feed pork in areas where the areas are heavily populated by Muslims? It would be like Pakistan govt organising beefburger vans to patrol Hindu areas with an alternative option of potato salad.

Also I would suggest you don't talk about Britain unless you have lived here. Otherwise you definitely come across as a troll who gets his information from selective sites on the internet rather than from first hand experience.

 

[CricketCartoons]

If Catholics are okay with France fighting their clergy/nobility then that is their choice. It's not dissimilar to Pakistan army fighting the clergy and religious insurgents in Pakistan. In either case it is going to be the same. You fight a war and you batten down for the blowback. That's just how the world works.

It is seen less of an attack when it is from your co-religionists. That is why Pakistan can afford to ban madarsas if it wants, but it will be termed islamophobic if a non muslim country does that. Same with Modi demolishing many illegal temples, it didnt raise any storm. The moment it is done by someone from the other religion, it gets an entirely new meaning. Therefore, France is seen as "anti muslim", but people forget that for decades it was "anti catholic" too.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It is seen less of an attack when it is from your co-religionists. That is why Pakistan can afford to ban madarsas if it wants, but it will be termed islamophobic if a non muslim country does that. Same with Modi demolishing many illegal temples, it didnt raise any storm. The moment it is done by someone from the other religion, it gets an entirely new meaning. Therefore, France is seen as "anti muslim", but people forget that for decades it was "anti catholic" too.

It was anti-Catholic because the Catholic people of France demanded it. It came from within as all true change must. When the twin towers went down the Americans put two fists up. This is what I do when someone attacks me or mine. I have never claimed to be on any higher moral ground I am quite disappointingly reactionary in truth. But I am reassured that the rest of the world seems to be quite on the same lines.

 

[Adil_94]

Utter BS.
1. France is anti show of any religious symbols in public life or school. Irrespective of religion (be it christanity, islam or sikhism) you are discouraged from displaying religious symbols in public. Just as they banned the islamic headscarf in schools, turbans for sikhs and crossed for catholics was not allowed to be displayed in schools.

If you want to wear your headscarf or cross or turban, then get the fook out of france and live somewhere its allowed. The French will not and should not change their culture for some retards.

2. Charlie Hebedo criticises everyone, be it blacks, jews, pope or islam. Again, French way of life, and nothing wrong with it. If you can't take criticism, then its your problem

3. Pork - Pork is served in all french schools, and the french have some delicious pork recipes. Pork has always been a part of school lunches. It was not brought in due to a bunch of muslims suddenly arriving at french schools. It was the muslims who demanded its ban.
If eating pork hurts your religious sentiments, then dont eat. If you dont want to go to school that serves pork, then go somewhere else. Or else, why not go and live somewhere pork is banned!

Having lived in France, I love the french way of life. The French are fiercely proud about it, and they should be. If you dont agree, get the hell out!

French Muslims should be deported from France unless they leave Islam. They have shown they can't live under a secular society. These people try to take France and destroy French culture with their hijabs and turbans. And I agree but to show their true commitment to secular ideals they should eat pork as it is a staple of French cuisine. If they hate pork they should leave France.


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[Adil_94]

It is seen less of an attack when it is from your co-religionists. That is why Pakistan can afford to ban madarsas if it wants, but it will be termed islamophobic if a non muslim country does that. Same with Modi demolishing many illegal temples, it didnt raise any storm. The moment it is done by someone from the other religion, it gets an entirely new meaning. Therefore, France is seen as "anti muslim", but people forget that for decades it was "anti catholic" too.

Same reason the Muslim world is silent over Saudi bombing of Yemen.


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[CricketCartoons]

It was anti-Catholic because the Catholic people of France demanded it. It came from within as all true change must. When the twin towers went down the Americans put two fists up. This is what I do when someone attacks me or mine. I have never claimed to be on any higher moral ground I am quite disappointingly reactionary in truth. But I am reassured that the rest of the world seems to be quite on the same lines.

This is what the muslim world is lacking: caring for its own. The western countries do that (whether the bond is over race, religion or democratic principles), but the muslim(not islamic) countries havent been able to stand as one, whether to resolve internal conflicts, or when facing external threat. I see lot of talk about why pray for paris, and not for baghdad. why even expect the west or non muslim world to feel for baghdad when the muslim world itself is not united in its prayers.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is what the muslim world is lacking: caring for its own. The western countries do that (whether the bond is over race, religion or democratic principles), but the muslim(not islamic) countries havent been able to stand as one, whether to resolve internal conflicts, or when facing external threat. I see lot of talk about why pray for paris, and not for baghdad. why even expect the west or non muslim world to feel for baghdad when the muslim world itself is not united in its prayers.

On the contrary I would suggest that the western countries have not been able to stand as one. They are all competing for a pot of gold at the end of the day.

 

[gani999]

Why would you want to feed pork in areas where the areas are heavily populated by Muslims? It would be like Pakistan govt organising beefburger vans to patrol Hindu areas with an alternative option of potato salad.

Also I would suggest you don't talk about Britain unless you have lived here. Otherwise you definitely come across as a troll who gets his information from selective sites on the internet rather than from first hand experience.

Schools in France are mixed. The students are allocated state schools and don't get to choose where they want to go. The problem is that muslim students have insisted that pork be done away from the menu even in schools where they are just 50% of the population.

and yes, Hindus in Pakistan should respect the majority sentiment. It would be naiive on their part to ask for beef bans in an Islamic country, even though Pakistani Hindus are not immigrants like the muslims in Europe.

As for trolling, you'd do better to take your own advice. Don't pontificate about France when you clearly know nothing about this country.

 

[LongHorn]

Taken as a group, far more French Muslims (mostly North Africans ) seem to hate France and the govt than British Muslims (mostly desi) . Yes the French govt does act extra secular, but at the same time, they do offer benefits, which I'm sure all French citizens benefit from.

If you see friendly games between France and Morocco/Algeria hosted in Paris, the vast majority of the crowd (who are French of North African origin) boo La Marseillaise which is cheap and kind of ungrateful.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Schools in France are mixed. The students are allocated state schools and don't get to choose where they want to go. The problem is that muslim students have insisted that pork be done away from the menu even in schools where they are just 50% of the population.

and yes, Hindus in Pakistan should respect the majority sentiment. It would be naiive on their part to ask for beef bans in an Islamic country, even though Pakistani Hindus are not immigrants like the muslims in Europe.

As for trolling, you'd do better to take your own advice. Don't pontificate about France when you clearly know nothing about this country.

Muslims form 50% minimum in the state schools and the local govt insists on pushing pork on the menu? Yes you are right, it really is difficult to work out why the French arabs are resentful French citizens. Next time my wife's Hindu friend comes round I'll insist on putting down a big plate of roast beef in front of her. Then of course ask if she'd like a veg samosa instead.

 

[uberkoen]

Muslims form 50% minimum in the state schools and the local govt insists on pushing pork on the menu? Yes you are right, it really is difficult to work out why the French arabs are resentful French citizens. Next time my wife's Hindu friend comes round I'll insist on putting down a big plate of roast beef in front of her. Then of course ask if she'd like a veg samosa instead.

I'm sorry but your arguments are absurd.

No one is forcing the Muslims to live there. If they have problems with pork being served on the menu they can take their kids back to Algeria or Morocco or where ever the hell they came from.

Either assimilate within the society and learn to accept the culture of your host country or leave.

If there's pork on the menu eat something else FFS.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm sorry but your arguments are absurd.

No one is forcing the Muslims to live there. If they have problems with pork being served on the menu they can take their kids back to Algeria or Morocco or where ever the hell they came from.

Either assimilate within the society and learn to accept the culture of your host country or leave.

If there's pork on the menu eat something else FFS.

That would be fine if they were actually going to leave but it's more likely they will stay and set cars alight instead. But you're right, pork's on the menu so that's a win for French culture.

 

[Moh@n]

Muslims form 50% minimum in the state schools and the local govt insists on pushing pork on the menu? Yes you are right, it really is difficult to work out why the French arabs are resentful French citizens. Next time my wife's Hindu friend comes round I'll insist on putting down a big plate of roast beef in front of her. Then of course ask if she'd like a veg samosa instead.

How is it an issue if pork is merely on the menu? Muslims are free to choose to not eat it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How is it an issue if pork is merely on the menu? Muslims are free to choose to not eat it.

You are right it's not an issue at all. Everything is just fine in France, I'm loving it.

 

[Sidilicious]

Going through this forum, a striking fact I realised is that the muslims living in the sub continent seem to be more supportive of the french and against the ISIS numpties than most of those living outside the subcontinent, in the western world (not all, but seen a fair few always finding excuses). Somehow I have also seen sikhs and hindus (born and brought up) in the UK act a bit more hindu and sikh than those who moved to the UK/France later in their lives.

Do South asians do this out of guilt to show the people back home that we are still from India/Pakistan??

Certainly find the Pakistanis from Pakistan a lot more compassionate towards the French than those born and brought up in the West.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Tabbakhe’s home town of Chilly-Mazarin – a town of about 20,000 people in L’Essonne, which nudges up against Orly airport to the south of Paris – is the latest of several run by rightwing mayors to announce they will scrap pork-free options in school canteens in the name of secularism. For 30 years, Chilly-Mazarin has provided non-pork alternatives to Muslim and Jewish children. But from November, that will stop. On days when the menu features dishes such as roast pork with mustard and courgette gratin, or Strasbourg sausage and organic lentils, or ham pasta bake, children whose families don’t eat pork for religious reasons will be offered nothing but the side dishes. The new mayor, Jean-Paul Beneytou, from Nicolas Sarkozy’s rightwing Les Républicains party, says this is a commonsense way to preserve public sector “neutrality”. But many parents, teachers and leftwing opposition politicians call it a deliberate stigmatisation of Islam that is cruel to children by playing politics with school lunches.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nce-secularism-children-religious-intolerance

There is no alternative menu being offered by the right wing bigots unless you count the side dishes.

 

[Thivagar]

Going through this forum, a striking fact I realised is that the muslims living in the sub continent seem to be more supportive of the french and against the ISIS numpties than most of those living outside the subcontinent, in the western world (not all, but seen a fair few always finding excuses). Somehow I have also seen sikhs and hindus (born and brought up) in the UK act a bit more hindu and sikh than those who moved to the UK/France later in their lives.

Do South asians do this out of guilt to show the people back home that we are still from India/Pakistan??

Certainly find the Pakistanis from Pakistan a lot more compassionate towards the French than those born and brought up in the West.

The land where they came from had progressed, the people who had moved from there continued to posess the same mentality as the average person had in their country when they were living there. Russell Peters used to joke about how Indian weddings outside India sometimes include the groom riding on an elephant, when even in India it is very rare to see that happen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Tabbakhe’s home town of Chilly-Mazarin – a town of about 20,000 people in L’Essonne, which nudges up against Orly airport to the south of Paris – is the latest of several run by rightwing mayors to announce they will scrap pork-free options in school canteens in the name of secularism. For 30 years, Chilly-Mazarin has provided non-pork alternatives to Muslim and Jewish children. But from November, that will stop. On days when the menu features dishes such as roast pork with mustard and courgette gratin, or Strasbourg sausage and organic lentils, or ham pasta bake, children whose families don’t eat pork for religious reasons will be offered nothing but the side dishes. The new mayor, Jean-Paul Beneytou, from Nicolas Sarkozy’s rightwing Les Républicains party, says this is a commonsense way to preserve public sector “neutrality”. But many parents, teachers and leftwing opposition politicians call it a deliberate stigmatisation of Islam that is cruel to children by playing politics with school lunches. http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...us-intolerance -

I bolded the parts which are relevant in that article, follow the link to read the full piece. It is clear that the removal of non-pork alternatives to be replaced by swine meat only is a deliberate and hostile move against Muslim schoolchildren of all people. If it was a case that there had never been an alternative before the right wing govt took over then you could argue that the kids should adapt, but that isn't the case. Do you think that is going to build goodwill inside the next generation of French arabs?

 

[Abdul]

People who assert that France suffering horrific terrorist acts is a result of "Western Imperialism" make the critical mistake of putting all Western nations in the same ambit when discussing their goals and policies.

These people conveniently forget that France vehemently opposed the Iraq 2003 operation and faced severe repercussions from the US for their opposition.

Just as there is no such thing as "Muslim nations" when associating blame towards an entire religion, there is no such thing as "The West" or "Western nations" for similar reasons.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

People who assert that France suffering horrific terrorist acts is a result of "Western Imperialism" make the critical mistake of putting all Western nations in the same ambit when discussing their goals and policies.

These people conveniently forget that France vehemently opposed the Iraq 2003 operation and faced severe repercussions from the US for their opposition.

Just as there is no such thing as "Muslim nations" when associating blame towards an entire religion, there is no such thing as "The West" or "Western nations" for similar reasons.

Noone is excusing murder here but your post is full with short sightedness and limited historical facts

It forgets the problems with algeria in the 60s, the syrian mandate of france, the treaty of sevres and sykes picot

and more recently forgets the backing of mouaz al khatib in syria, who has historical links to france, not to forget frances's carpet bombing on syria and libya

 

[Buffet]

People will get their sentiments hurt all the time. Banning meat because Vegetarians(fascists), Muslims and Vegans(mega fascists) want meat banned is just as stupid as only implementing meat. Then what do you do about the people who are sentimentally hurt because the food that they've been eating for centuries are now taken away because someone else get their feeling hurt.

My comment was sarcastic in nature because I don't think that you can object on XYZ being in the menu option. If we take those objections seriously then pretty soon you can't have anything in menu.

But issue seems to be a bit different here. It looks like menu options were changed to not leave any proper meal options for kids. Two different situations here.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Saying Muslims are terrorists is like saying Americans are criminals. Actually, the %age of Americans in prison is higher than the %age of terrorists among Muslims.

 

[Adijazz1706]

The subcontinent mentality is rearing its head again. People forget what France did in Algeria and as a member of NATO, what they have done over the years.

 

[Adijazz1706]

[MENTION=137893]enkidu_[/MENTION] Charlie Hebdo won't release any cartoons on this. They would be wound up within a week.

 

[endymion248]

There is no alternative menu being offered by the right wing bigots unless you count the side dishes.

There is. If you read the article correctly, there are some mayors who want to change that, which warrants a news article. Ergo alternatives are being offered currently.

And the whole debate is stupid since all non-zabiyah meat is haram anyways. Students who truly want to follow islamic diet only eat veggie side-dishes anyways or go home during the lunch period or bring their lunch from home. Why should french government offer chicken instead of pork because muslims don't even understand their own religion?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Muslims are free not to eat pork,but why should others not eat pork because of them?

I did answer this but that post has been removed for some reason. I will no longer offer any opinion on this topic. Good day to you.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is. If you read the article correctly, there are some mayors who want to change that, which warrants a news article. Ergo alternatives are being offered currently.

And the whole debate is stupid since all non-zabiyah meat is haram anyways. Students who truly want to follow islamic diet only eat veggie side-dishes anyways or go home during the lunch period or bring their lunch from home. Why should french government offer chicken instead of pork because muslims don't even understand their own religion?

It's an interesting dynamic but perhaps the reason some of the posts have been removed are because it is a distraction from the shooting itself. Personally I think it provides some much needed context to what is going on in France but let's leave it for another thread. I can't be bothered to repost the same thing to fill in the missing gaps.

 

[Slog]

Guys is there anyway to find out if a Pakistani national was injured or killed in this incidenet?

 

[gani999]

Guys is there anyway to find out if a Pakistani national was injured or killed in this incidenet?

The Pakistan Embassy in Paris has set up a hotline to provide information.

http://www.pakembparis.com/

 

[Slog]

The Pakistan Embassy in Paris has set up a hotline to provide information.

http://www.pakembparis.com/

Thank you man!

 

[Markhor]

A BBC journalist broke down in tears on the air in Paris this morning.

Now everyone wants to get in on the grief act. I'm sorry but this is getting hysterical. Its the fourth day the news channels are running with this. Can we have some tears for Beirut, Baghdad or Peshawar or is that just another news assignment. My heart goes out to the Parisians caught up in this appalling tragedy but when we people learn to mourn ALL deaths of innocent life no matter where they are in the world. Does it only matter when those lives are Western ? Where were the candlelight vigils and Facebook avatars when terrorists shot up a school full of Pakistani kids last December or when Daesh blew up a plane full of Russians (who've been demonised relentlessly by the media for geopolitical reasons) over the Sinai ?

When Muslims are killed there's always a caveat as we saw in Gaza just last year - "when will both sides stop hating each other, religion is the problem, yes but did you see what Hamas did ?" - but the grief is unconditional when it happens over here. We would never look to explain away our deaths like we would with Middle Eastern lives. "Those refugees dying in the Med - well they got what they asked for by going on those boats" - a remark written all too often.

Rupert Murdoch has now said US should make exceptions for "Christian refugees" from Syria and already 20 US Governors have closed their state to Syrian refugees. The dehumanising of "the other" continues.

 

[Markhor]

The Sun newspaper has called for Muslims to demonstrate in London holding placards "not in my name" - because of course I'm sure they'll report it like all the other anti-ISIS protests that have been held long before the events of Friday night.

Why should there be a collective apology ? Why should ordinary Muslims going about their ordinary life have to apologise on behalf of these barbaric thugs ? Did the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland have to apologise every IRA attack or every Basque person for the actions of ETA ?

If only there was a time machine to skip ahead a month so we can move onto the next item on the news agenda as the current climate of hysteria and scaremongering is genuinely terrifying, especially Stateside with right-wing politicians going into overdrive with Donald Trump calling for the mass surveillance of all Muslim organisations in the country and Ted Cruz launching into demagogue mode.

 

[CricketCartoons]

My heart goes out to the Parisians caught up in this appalling tragedy but when we people learn to mourn ALL deaths of innocent life no matter where they are in the world. Does it only matter when those lives are Western ? Where were the candlelight vigils and Facebook avatars when terrorists shot up a school full of Pakistani kids last December or when Daesh blew up a plane full of Russians (who've been demonised relentlessly by the media for geopolitical reasons) over the Sinai ?

I don't think it is feasible for everyone to mourn for everyone. Humanity is a nice word, but in the end it is about who feel are your own people, and you mourn for them.
If the west makes a big deal of tragedies in their countries, nothing wrong with that. Others should learn to make a big deal of their own tragedies.

 

[Adil_94]

The Sun newspaper has called for Muslims to demonstrate in London holding placards "not in my name" - because of course I'm sure they'll report it like all the other anti-ISIS protests that have been held long before the events of Friday night.

Why should there be a collective apology ? Why should ordinary Muslims going about their ordinary life have to apologise on behalf of these barbaric thugs ? Did the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland have to apologise every IRA attack or every Basque person for the actions of ETA ?

If only there was a time machine to skip ahead a month so we can move onto the next item on the news agenda as the current climate of hysteria and scaremongering is genuinely terrifying, especially Stateside with right-wing politicians going into overdrive with Donald Trump calling for the mass surveillance of all Muslim organisations in the country and Ted Cruz launching into demagogue mode.

These idiots who think silence means acceptance. I havent met any Muslim who supports ISIS. But they hate when other people tell them to apologise. Yes condemn the attack but why apologise ? Muslims in Britain have to apologise for an attack in Paris yeah coz that makes sense.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[90MPH]

The Sun newspaper has called for Muslims to demonstrate in London holding placards "not in my name" - because of course I'm sure they'll report it like all the other anti-ISIS protests that have been held long before the events of Friday night.

Why should there be a collective apology ? Why should ordinary Muslims going about their ordinary life have to apologise on behalf of these barbaric thugs ? Did the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland have to apologise every IRA attack or every Basque person for the actions of ETA ?

If only there was a time machine to skip ahead a month so we can move onto the next item on the news agenda as the current climate of hysteria and scaremongering is genuinely terrifying, especially Stateside with right-wing politicians going into overdrive with Donald Trump calling for the mass surveillance of all Muslim organisations in the country and Ted Cruz launching into demagogue mode.

The Sun is always attention seeking newspaper, I wouldn't take them seriously at all.

But yeah still gutter journalism. I would never listen to what they say in any case because then tomorow they will demand something else.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Can we have some tears for Beirut, Baghdad or Peshawar or is that just another news assignment. My heart goes out to the Parisians caught up in this appalling tragedy but when we people learn to mourn ALL deaths of innocent life no matter where they are in the world. Does it only matter when those lives are Western ? Where were the candlelight vigils and Facebook avatars when terrorists shot up a school full of Pakistani kids last December or when Daesh blew up a plane full of Russians (who've been demonised relentlessly by the media for geopolitical reasons) over the Sinai ?

This is like asking a mother why she grieves for her dead son and not the other children.Get real bro.People will cry for those who matter to them.America and France have a shared sense of history going back to the war of independence in the 18th century.

 

[Robert]

These idiots who think silence means acceptance. I havent met any Muslim who supports ISIS. But they hate when other people tell them to apologise. Yes condemn the attack but why apologise ? Muslims in Britain have to apologise for an attack in Paris yeah coz that makes sense.

Sure. It would be like asking me to apologise for the Bloody Sunday massacre. Sure, I could say the words, but it would mean nothing because I was not responsible for those deaths.

 

[anuk]

Sure. It would be like asking me to apologise for the Bloody Sunday massacre. Sure, I could say the words, but it would mean nothing because I was not responsible for those deaths.

true. but u have to question the whole religion when the premier cleric in australia makes outlandish and hurtful comments like this just after innocent people were killed.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-paris-terror-attacks-to-racism-34207360.html

 

[Abdullah719]

true. but u have to question the whole religion when the premier cleric in australia makes outlandish and hurtful comments like this just after innocent people were killed.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-paris-terror-attacks-to-racism-34207360.html

Well, out of 1.5 billion, you've done a magnificent job to find one story to link to, whereby which "you have to question the whole religion". Congrats.

Meanwhile, we can turn a blind eye to the tons of other messages that have been released... because it doesn't fit your narrative. Sure.

 

[mani1]

true. but u have to question the whole religion when the premier cleric in australia makes outlandish and hurtful comments like this just after innocent people were killed.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-paris-terror-attacks-to-racism-34207360.html

Just like you have to question a religion who's holy father does this

 

[Adil_94]

true. but u have to question the whole religion when the premier cleric in australia makes outlandish and hurtful comments like this just after innocent people were killed.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...-paris-terror-attacks-to-racism-34207360.html

In Britain many clerics have condemned it. And many Muslims have too most of my friends and social circle are Muslims and 80-90% of them have France flags as their pps and have condemned the attack. That is an utter myth Muslims havent condemned it. One cleric in Aus doesnt represent Aussie Muslims or the whole religion of Islam. How many muslims do u actually know or come into contact with. Is it only through PP.

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[90MPH]

Well, out of 1.5 billion, you've done a magnificent job to find one story to link to, whereby which "you have to question the whole religion". Congrats.

Meanwhile, we can turn a blind eye to the tons of other messages that have been released... because it doesn't fit your narrative. Sure.

He's a bigot, plain and simple. I have seen more than enough of his comments to justify that view.

Sometimes you may something silly against a particular community because of emotion or misinformation - fir enough we are all humans and we may say something we didn't intend to.

However when someone is always saying only 1 particular line of thought processes then really it's pointless and even hopeless debating with someone like that. Just let them bark and ignore it.

 

[anuk]

Well, out of 1.5 billion, you've done a magnificent job to find one story to link to, whereby which "you have to question the whole religion". Congrats.

Meanwhile, we can turn a blind eye to the tons of other messages that have been released... because it doesn't fit your narrative. Sure.

it wasn't very hard. it was the top story in the news.

he is called the leading cleric in australia. not sure how he got to that position if he isn't a respected leader.

 

[Abdullah719]

it wasn't very hard. it was the top story in the news.

he is called the leading cleric in australia. not sure how he got to that position if he isn't a respected leader.

First time you've heard a 'leader' say something outrageous? Please stop acting naive.

 

[anuk]

First time you've heard a 'leader' say something outrageous? Please stop acting naive.

not the first time but does that mean i'm not supposed to pay attention to it?

ridiculous.

 

[Abdullah719]

not the first time but does that mean i'm not supposed to pay attention to it?

ridiculous.

Nope, go ahead.

but u have to question the whole religion

Go ahead with that too. Whatever helps you to sleep at night.

 

[anuk]

Nope, go ahead.



Go ahead with that too. Whatever helps you to sleep at night.

if obama or the pope said that, there'd be an unimaginable controversy and would eventually be forced to step down. i'm willing to bet this clown will be in charge going forward as well.

 

[SL_Fan]

Must watch very well said.

 

[Abdullah719]

Paris attacks: Police in deadly swoop on apartment in northern suburb

Explosions and heavy gunfire were heard in Paris as armed police searching for suspects from Friday's attacks raided a flat in the suburb of Saint Denis.

Two people were killed in the raid, including a female suspect blew herself up with a suicide belt. Seven people have been arrested, police say.

A government spokesman has confirmed the operation has ended.

The focus of the raid is said to be the alleged mastermind of Friday's attacks that killed 129 people.

Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a 27-year-old Belgian of Moroccan origin, was originally suspected of organising Friday's attacks from Syria.

But this has not been confirmed.

Roads were blocked off around Rue de la Republique in Saint Denis, in the same district as the Stade de France where suicide attackers detonated bombs on Friday.

Truckloads of soldiers joined armed police at the scene as the operation got under way at 04:20 local time (03.20 GMT).

"I've been hearing gunshots continuously, like fireworks... There have been some breaks but... to me it sounds like continuous gunshots," one resident, Benson Hoi, told the BBC earlier.

Another witness, Amine Guizani, told the Associated Press he heard the sounds of grenades and automatic gunfire.

"They were shooting for an hour, non-stop. There were grenades. It was going, stopping, Kalashnikovs, Starting again," he said.

At least five people were believed to have been in the targeted third floor flat, French media report.

A woman inside the apartment set off an explosives vest at the beginning of the raid and died, the Paris prosecutor's office said.

The prosecutor said that, among the arrests, three men were detained in the apartment and a man and woman were stopped nearby.

Police said a second suspect was killed. France's BFMTV said he had been shot by sniper fire.

Five police officers were injured and a police dog was killed after entering the flat, police said.

There were unconfirmed reports that at least one suspect was still being sought - either holed up in the flat or on the run.

Earlier, Deputy Mayor Stephane Peu urged local residents to stay indoors, saying "it is not a new attack but a police intervention".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34853657

 

[Markhor]

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mbs-terror-vladimir-putin-syria-david-cameron

Mehdi Hasan tried writing some sense but judging from the comments its gone over everyone's heads. Here was one relevant and important section that's a must read for everyone here:

From New York to Madrid to London, any public utterance of the words “foreign” and “policy” in the aftermath of a terrorist attack has evoked paroxysms of outrage from politicians and pundits alike.

The response to the atrocities in Paris has followed the same pattern. Derided by a former Labour minister as “west-hating fury chimps”, the UK’s Stop the War coalition removed from its website a piece that blamed the rise of Islamic State (Isis) and the Paris attacks on “deliberate policies and actions undertaken by the United States and its allies”. The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, scrapped a speech in which he was due to say that Britain’s “disastrous wars” have “increased, not diminished, the threats to our own national security”. Such arguments are verboten in our public discourse.

Isn’t it odd, then, that in the case of Russia, western governments have been keen to link Vladimir Putin’s – and only Vladimir Putin’s – foreign policy to terrorist violence? On 1 October the US government and its allies issued a joint statement declaring that the Russian president’s decision to intervene in Syria would “only fuel more extremism and radicalisation”. Yes, you heard them: it’ll “fuel” it.

Moscow’s bombing campaign will “lead to further radicalisation and increased terrorism”, claimed David Cameron on 4 October. Note the words “lead to”. Speaking at a Nato summit on 8 October the US defence secretary, Ashton Carter, warned of the “consequences for Russia itself, which is rightly fearful of attacks”. Got that? “Rightly fearful”.

And, in the days since the crash of the Russian Metrojet airliner in Egypt on 31 October, which killed 224 civilians, commentators have queued up to join the dots between Russia’s actions in Syria and this alleged terrorist attack by Isis. On a BBC panel discussion the Telegraph’s Janet Daley referred to the crash as “a direct consequence of [Russia’s] involvement in Syria”, adding: “[Putin] has perhaps incited this terrorist incident on Russian civilians.”

Compare and contrast Daley’s remarks on the downing of Flight 9268 with her reaction to the Paris attacks. Rather than accusing President Hollande of “inciting” terrorism against the people of France, or calling the carnage a “direct consequence” of French involvement in Syria, she took aim at anyone who might dare draw attention to the country’s military interventions in Muslim-majority countries such as Libya, Mali and, yes, Syria.

“If there is any need to argue about these matters, it should come at some other time,” she wrote, because “the French people did not deserve this”, and “it is wicked and irresponsible to suggest otherwise”. (To quote one of the leading foreign policy sages of our time, Phoebe Buffay of Friends: “Hello, kettle? This is pot. You’re black.”)

If Isis did bring down the Russian airliner, then of course it would be madness to pretend it wasn’t linked to Putin’s military campaign on behalf of the dictator of Damascus. Yet it would be equally insane to pretend that the horror in Paris had nothing at all to do with France’s recent military interventions in the Middle East and west Africa.

Yes, the attackers in the Bataclan concert hall chanted Allahu Akbar as they opened fire on the crowd, but they were also heard saying: “What you are doing in Syria? You are going to pay for it now.” Yes, Isis’s official statement of responsibility referred to Paris as “the capital of prostitution and obscenity”, but it also singled out the French government for leading a “Crusader campaign” and “striking the Muslims … with their planes”.

To understand political violence requires an understanding of political grievances; to blame terrorism only on religious ideology or medieval mindsets is short-sighted and self-serving. The inconvenient truth is that geopolitics is governed as much as is physics by Newton’s third law of motion: “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” The CIA, back in the 1950s, even coined a term – “blowback” – to describe the unintended negative consequences, for US civilians, of US military operations abroad.

Today, when it comes to Russia, an “official enemy”, we understand and embrace the concept of blowback. When it comes to our own countries, to the west, we become the child in the playground, sticking our fingers in our ears and singing “La la la, I can’t hear you.”

Couldn't have said it any better.

Let me be clear: to explain is not to excuse; explication is not justification. There is no grievance on earth that can justify the wanton slaughter of innocent men, women and children, in France or anywhere else.

The savagery of Isis is perhaps without parallel in the modern era. But the point is that it did not emerge from nowhere: as the US president himself has conceded, Isis “grew out of our invasion” of Iraq.

Yet we avert our gaze from the “glaringly evident” and pretend that “they” – the Russians, the Iranians, the Chinese – are attacked for their policies while “we” – Europe, the west, the liberal democracies – are attacked only for our principles. This is the simplistic fantasy, the geopolitical fairytale, that we tell ourselves. It gives us solace and strength in the wake of terrorist atrocities. But it does nothing to stop the next attack.

 

[endymion248]

Nice comment by Black Poodles...

 

[dashing_man]

fun fact

LONDON: Gold prices slipped, heading toward near six-year lows as the dollar rose and stocks rebounded from losses associated with Friday’s attacks in Paris.
Gold briefly rose on Monday to its highest in a week at $1,097.90 an ounce after the attacks prompted a flight to safety among investors, but it failed to maintain those gains.
The metal is now coming under pressure from expectations that the US Federal Reserve is set to raise US interest rates for the first time in nearly a decade, lifting the opportunity cost of holding non-yielding gold while boosting the dollar.
Spot gold was down 0.4 percent at $1,078.70 an ounce at 1239 GMT, while US gold futures for December delivery were down $5.80 an ounce at $1,077.80.
It is slipping back toward last week’s low of $1,074.26 an ounce, its weakest since February 2010.
“We think gold could go to $1,050 an ounce, if the Fed goes ahead with a rate hike in December,” Capital Economics analyst Simona Gambarini said.
“That’s the main driver of the gold price, and the reason why we’ve retraced to these levels.”
Global shares rose sharply on Tuesday, clawing back all the ground lost the previous day as investors bet that the attacks on Paris would have little lasting impact on the economy. European stocks rose more than 2 percent. MKTS/GLOB
As the initial shock of the attacks abated, investors once again focused their attention on the prospect of diverging monetary policy, with the United States set to tighten and the euro zone expected to loosen policy.
That has led to gains in the dollar, which hit a seven- month high against the euro on Tuesday.
“We believe that gold will face further headwinds in the next few weeks as an extension of euro zone quantitative easing is announced in December, thus pushing up the dollar against the euro and other major currencies, and as the market fully prices in a mid-December Fed rate rise,” Mitsubishi said in a note.
Among other precious metals, silver was down 0.1 percent at $14.21, platinum was flat at $860.10 an ounce, and palladium was down 1.1 percent at $542.15 an ounce.
Platinum snapped 12 days of losses on Monday to edge higher, but remains near that day’s near seven-year low of $851 an ounce.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Prime suspect for Paris attacks arrested in (surprise, surprise) Molenbeek.

Brussels raids: Paris attack suspect Abdeslam arrested

Paris attacks suspect Salah Abdeslam has been wounded and arrested in a raid in Brussels, officials have said.

They said Abdeslam, who had been on the run since the attacks in November, was wounded in the leg as police moved in on a flat in the Molenbeek area.

"We got him," said Theo Francken, Secretary of State for Asylum and Migration.

Abdeslam - one of Europe's most wanted men - is a key suspect in the jihadist attacks in Paris which 130 people died.

Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel had to urgently leave an EU-Turkey summit as details of the operation began to emerge.

The raid has continued late into the evening. At least one more person is believed to be holed up inside the Molenbeek flat.

Two more explosions were reported recently at the scene.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35846954

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/security-high-paris-2015-jihadist-attacks-trial-begins-2021-09-07/

The main suspect in a jihadist rampage that killed 130 people across Paris described himself defiantly as "an Islamic State soldier" on Wednesday, upsetting some survivors who took it as a threat at the start of the trial into the 2015 attacks.

Salah Abdeslam, 31, appeared in court dressed in black and wearing a black face mask, one of 20 men accused of involvement in the gun-and-bomb attacks on six restaurants and bars, the Bataclan concert hall and a sports stadium on Nov. 13, 2015.

Asked his profession, the French-Moroccan removed his face mask and told a Paris court: "I gave up my job to become an Islamic State soldier."

He is believed to be the only surviving member of the group that carried out the attacks. The other suspects are accused of helping to provide guns and cars or organise the attacks, which also injured hundreds and scarred the nation's psyche.

Responsibility for the attacks was claimed by Islamic State, which had urged followers to attack France over its involvement in the fight against the militant group in Iraq and Syria.

Victor Edou, a lawyer for eight Bataclan survivors, said Abdeslam's statement was "very violent".

"Some of my clients are not doing too well...after hearing a statement that they took as a new, direct threat," he said. "It's going to be like that for nine months."

Others said they were trying not to attach much importance to Abdeslam's comments.

"I need more to be shocked ... I'm not afraid," said Thierry Mallet, a Bataclan survivor.

Asked by the court's top judge to give his name, Abdeslam used the Shahada, an Islamic oath, saying: "I want to testify that there is no god except Allah and that Mohammad is his servant."

Other defendants simply gave their names and professions.

Before the trial, survivors and victims' relatives had said they were impatient to hear testimony that might help them better understand what happened and why it did so.

"It is important that the victims can bear witness, can tell the perpetrators, the suspects who are on the stand, about the pain," said Philippe Duperron, whose 30-year-old son Thomas was killed in the attacks.

"We are also awaiting anxiously because we know that as this trial takes place the pain, the events, everything will come back to the surface."

The trial is expected to last nine months, with nearly 1,800 plaintiffs and more than 300 lawyers involved in what Justice Minister Eric Dupond-Moretti called an unprecedented judicial marathon. The court's top judge, Jean-Louis Peries, said it was a historic trial.

Eleven of the 20 defendants are already in jail pending trial and six will be tried in absentia - most of them are believed to be dead. Most face life imprisonment if convicted.

Police mounted tight security around the Palais de Justice courthouse in central Paris. Defendants appeared behind a reinforced glass partition in a purpose-built courtroom and all people must pass through several checkpoints to enter the court.

"The terrorist threat in France is high, especially at times like the attacks' trial," Interior Minister Gerald Darmanin told France Inter radio.

The first days of the trial are expected to be largely procedural. Victims' testimonies are set to start on Sept. 28. Questioning of the accused will start in November but they are not set to be questioned about the night of the attacks and the week before them until March.

A verdict is not expected before late May, but Bataclan survivor Gaetan Honore, 40, said being there from the start mattered.

"It was important to be here on the first day, symbolically. I'm hoping to understand, somehow, how this could happen," he said.

 

[daytrader]

Bataclan massacre: Trial of Islamic State fighters accused of mass murder in Paris set to conclude
Twenty men are accused of carrying out one of the worst peace-time attacks in Europe. A special court was built to host the 10-month trial, which is the largest in modern French history.

The trial of 20 men accused of carrying out one of the worst peace-time terror attacks in Europe is expected to conclude in Paris later on Wednesday.

The men, all suspected Islamic State terrorists, are accused of killing 130 people and injuring hundreds more in coordinated attacks on 13 November 2015.

Within minutes of each, they detonated bombs at the Stade de France, the Bataclan concert venue and opened fire on diners at restaurants across the French capital.

Fourteen are being tried in person, another six in-absentia, presumed either dead or missing whilst fighting for IS in Syria.

A special secure court was built for the 10-month trial, the largest trial in modern French history.

Five judges heard evidence from over 2000 witnesses, including more than a million pages of evidence, 300 lawyers and testimony from European counter-terrorism personnel.

The main suspect is Salah Abdeslam, the only surviving member of the group that carried out the attacks - the rest are accused of helping plot the attacks.

Abdeslam's brother, Brahim, was also involved in the attacks but blew himself up the night after shooting dead young Parisians drinking and eating in cafés.

Suspect changed his mind out of 'humanity not fear'

At the start of the trial in November 2021, the 32-year-old Abdeslam defiantly gave his profession as an "Islamic State fighter" but in recent weeks, as the trial has wound up, he has asked for forgiveness and has claimed he deliberately dumped his suicide vest to prevent more people dying.

"I go into the café, I order a drink, I look at the people around me and I say to myself 'no, I'm not going to do it'," he told the court.

"I changed my mind out of humanity, not fear."

On Monday, as the trial wrapped up, he tried to apologise to the victims, claiming he was not a murderer.

However, French police and prosecution lawyers said his suicide belt was found to be defective and this provides a more likely reason why he did not detonate it.

Abdeslam, a French national, raised in Belgium and with Moroccan roots, went on the run for four months but was eventually found hiding in the Brussels district of Molenbeek, close to his family home.

He faces life imprisonment if found guilty.

A close friend of Abdeslam and fellow defendant, Mohamed Abrini, is accused of providing weapons and logistical support.

Abrini also took part in suicide bombings in Brussels in 2016 but says he regrets his involvement now.

"I've put faces to the victims, I'm aware that what happened is disgusting," he told the court.

'They started spraying bullets all over'

Relatives of the dead, and witnesses to the attacks, have sat through months of harrowing evidence in hope of finally finding truth and justice.

One of those, Arthur Denouveaux, survived the attack on the Bataclan theatre and told Sky News that the process has helped him.

"Testifying in front of the court and hearing all the testimonies from all the victims has been very helpful because I've seen I was not alone, which I knew, but is somehow different to it publicly," he said.

"Then that was broadcasted all over France. And maybe all over the world, and that has been a strong message of how tough we were, but still struggling.

"In my memory, when the terrorists came in, there was a lot of shooting and then a long period of silence before they shot again.

"And that did not seem to match with anything that I read about it. But that was true. They started spraying bullets all over."

"He [Abdeslam] feels very apologetic, but I think he is apologetic towards himself. He's mad at himself for getting into that, and either going into that and not going the whole way and getting in that middle ground where he will be in jail for probably the rest of his life."

https://news.sky.com/story/bataclan...mass-murder-in-paris-set-to-conclude-12642249

 

[silentkiller187]

The only surviving member of the group of Islamic State fanatics that terrorised Paris with a series of bombings and shootings has been sentenced to life in prison.

Salah Abdeslam is one of 19 IS terrorists convicted of killing 130 people and injuring hundreds more in the coordinated attacks across the capital on the night of 13 November 2015, in one of the deadliest attacks ever seen in peacetime France.

The 32-year-old has been in jail since his arrest in Belgium in 2016.

He will now spend the rest of his life in jail without the prospect of early release - the toughest sentence possible under France's justice system.

The rest helped plot the attacks - their crimes ranging from providing the attackers with weapons and cars to planning to take part in the massacre themselves.

All defendants but one were found guilty of all charges.

Farid Kharkhach was found not guilty of terrorism but guilty of association with criminals.

The sentencing marked the end of the longest criminal trial in post-war French history, which has been held since September in a specially designed courtroom at Paris' Palace of Justice - with over 2,000 plaintiffs and more than 300 lawyers involved.

Islamic State had claimed responsibility for the attacks and had urged followers to attack France over its involvement in the fight against the militant group in Iraq and Syria.

The assailants detonated bombs outside the Stade de France stadium, which was hosting an international friendly between France and Germany; the Bataclan concert hall, where the American band Eagles of Death Metal were playing; and opened fire on diners at restaurants across the French capital.

Wednesday's verdicts conclude a 10-month trial for which a special court was built to try 14 of the men in person and another six in-absentia, presumed either dead or missing whilst fighting for IS in Syria.

Salah Abdeslam's brother, Brahim, was also involved in the attacks, but blew himself up the night after shooting dead young Parisians drinking and eating in cafes.

Five judges heard evidence from more than 2,000 witnesses, including more than a million pages of evidence, 300 lawyers and testimony from European counter-terrorism personnel.

Relatives of the dead and witnesses to the attacks have sat through months of harrowing evidence in the hope of finally finding truth and justice.

"It has been a long 10 months, but I think we can be proud of what we achieved," said Arthur Denouveaux, a survivor of the Bataclan attack, in which 90 people died, and the president of Life for Paris, a victims' association.

"Victims, myself included, we had very low expectations for the trial.

"The trial overcame anything we would have wished for, because terrorists spoke, terrorists in a way answered to our testimonies, that was so unexpected, that never happens in terrorist trials."

'I changed my mind', terrorist claimed

At the start of the trial in November 2021, Abdeslam defiantly gave his profession as an "Islamic State fighter".

But in recent weeks, as the trial has wound up, he asked for forgiveness and claimed he deliberately dumped his suicide vest to prevent more people dying.

"I go into the cafe, I order a drink, I look at the people around me and I say to myself 'no, I'm not going to do it'," he told the court. "I changed my mind out of humanity, not fear."

On Monday, as the trial wrapped up, he tried to apologise to the victims, claiming he was not a murderer.

However, French police and prosecution lawyers said his suicide belt was found to be defective and that this pointed to a more likely reason why he did not detonate it.

Abdeslam, a French national, raised in Belgium and with Moroccan roots, went on the run for four months but was eventually found hiding in the Brussels district of Molenbeek, close to his family home.

"I feel relieved that the trial is over," Mr Denouveaux added, "because it means justice has done what it has to do and because it means this trial is behind me and I can move on with my life."

SKY

 

[MenInG]

The only surviving attacker from the group that carried out the November 2015 Paris attacks has been found guilty of terrorism and murder charges.

Salah Abdeslam received a rare full-life sentence for his role in the gun and bomb attacks that killed 130 people.

The court also convicted 19 other men involved, six of whom are believed to be dead.

The trial - the biggest in modern French history - began last September.

For more than nine months, victims, journalists, and the families of the dead lined up outside the specially-built courtroom in Paris to piece together the story of the worst attack in France since World War Two.

The attacks across bars, restaurants, the national football stadium and Bataclan music venue on 13 November 2015 saw hundreds injured alongside those killed.

At the beginning of the trial Abdeslam was defiant, describing himself as a "soldier" of the so-called Islamic State (IS) group.

But he later apologised to the victims, telling the court in his closing remarks that he was "not a murderer, or a killer", and that to convict him of murder would be "an injustice".

He also claimed during the trial that he decided not to detonate his suicide vest on the night of the attack and disposed of it in a Paris suburb.

However, the court accepted evidence that the suicide vest was defective, and therefore it did not believe that Abdeslam had experienced a last-minute change of heart.

His full-life sentence means there is only a small chance of parole after 30 years. It is the most severe penalty for criminals in France and is rarely handed down by the country's courts.

One of the survivors of the attack, Édith Seurat, told the BBC that the trial had not healed her pain and had left her unsatisfied.

"We still have our injuries and our traumas and our nightmares and our wounds," she said. "We still have to keep on living with that."

Stéphane Sararde, the father of one of those killed in the 2015 attacks, told the BBC that the lengthy trial had helped him to process the tragedy.

"It was nine terrible months," he said. "We had to wait, we had to go back into this tragedy in order to go into the details of what happened."

But he hoped the experience would make it easier to be able to live without his son Hugo, he added.

Also speaking to the BBC, survivor Arthur Dénouveaux said he was unsure what to think now that the verdict had been delivered.

"I feel a mix of being happy that it's done, having a lot of questions on what the future holds, and proud to have been part of this wonderful trial," he said. "The verdict shows it was worth the time."

BBC