Philander fined 75% of his match fee for ball tampering (Pics added post 145)

[MarkCooper]

Source; Cricinfo twitter feed.

Philander fined 75% of his match fee after being "captured on footage changing the condition of the ball by scratching" it

 

[Mamoon]

And still couldn't do anything. The most overrated bowler in the world at the moment. He's cack on batting friendly surfaces but obviously we had to make him look better than he is in the UAE.

Rubbish in Australia and now rubbish in SL.

 

[Sunny786]

Hmm the South Africans have made a habit of reversing it out of the blue in recent tests. Last time, it was Faf who was caught with his zip. I didnt watch the on going test so maybe someone who watched the game can tell us if they did that again.

 

[Hawkeye]

So this time again they did ball tampering to get those wickets?

They were caught in the UAE as well doing# #ZipperGate

 

[Saj]

Vernon Philander fined 75% of his match fee for Ball Tampering

South Africa’s Vernon Philander has been fined 75 per cent of his match fee after breaching the ICC Code of Conduct during the third day’s play in the first cricket Test against Sri Lanka in Galle.

Philander was charged with an article 2.2.9 offence of the ICC Code of Conduct which relates to “changing the condition of the ball in breach of Law 42.3 of the Laws of Cricket, as modified by ICC Standard Test Match, ODI and Twenty20 International Match Playing Conditions clause 42.1”.

The charge was laid following the conclusion of Friday’s play and after viewing television footage by on-field umpires Billy Bowden and Richard Kettleborough, third umpire Nigel Llong, all from the Emirates Elite Panel of ICC Umpires, fourth umpire Ruchira Palliyaguruge as well as match referee Jeff Crowe.

The incident that led to the charge being laid took place in the afternoon when Philander was captured on footage changing the condition of the ball by scratching the surface with his fingers and thumb. The footage, which was not aired during live coverage, was viewed by the umpires after the close of play.

The penalty was accepted by Philander without contest so there was no need for a hearing.

Penalties for offences included in Level 2 of ICC Code of Conduct can range from 50 per cent to 100 per cent of a player’s match fee and/or two Suspension Points. Two Suspension Points equates to a ban of one Test, or two ODIs, depending on which type of match is scheduled next for the suspended player.

 

[Kiri]

Meh. I don't think he did too much wrong. Ball tampering is ball tampering. He's been dealt with so we can move on.

 

[Sunny786]

Has anyone found a clip of the incident?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Meh. I don't think he did too much wrong. Ball tampering is ball tampering. He's been dealt with so we can move on.

So he tampered the ball, SL batting collapsed and its fine thats since he got fined?

 

[leatherface58]

Despite all the scratching, the man didn't pick a wicket. They could give him a bottle cork and it wouldn't still matter in these conditions.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Even if he doesn't pick wickets, others did.

What a bunch of cheaters and losers.

 

[Zohaib Shah]

Even if he doesn't pick wickets, others did.

What a bunch of cheaters and losers.

Calm down, be sensible.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

They have have been caught twice now and both cases gotten away with a slap on the wrist

 

[Adil_94]

Second time now they have tampered on a flat track. If this was Pakistan there would be a public outrage. In before Asian victim mentality playing the race card.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Calm down, be sensible.

They did it against Pak, now SL.

Bud, please tell me why my comment wasn't sensible. It was emotional but that doesn't mean it wasn't sensible.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

They have have been caught twice now and both cases gotten away with a slap on the wrist

Amen.

Second time now they have tampered on a flat track. If this was Pakistan there would be a public outrage. In before Asian victim mentality playing the race card.

Amen.

 

[Indiafan]

Watch Steyn's wicket tally come down next match/innings. Happened last series against Pakistan

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If this is all it takes, I think Indian bowlers should start doing it.

Paying fines is no big deal.

Just some pocket money lost.

 

[Zohaib Shah]

They did it against Pak, now SL.

Bud, please tell me why my comment wasn't sensible. It was emotional but that doesn't mean it wasn't sensible.

Being sensible is giving constructive criticism in a very intelligent tone. What you sounded like was barbaric. I understand your frustration over this. But I feel painting one whole picture on a team is not fair.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Being sensible is giving constructive criticism in a very intelligent tone. What you sounded like was barbaric. I understand your frustration over this. But I feel painting one whole picture on a team is not fair.

Ok then my mistake.

 

[Arsal_AK]

This is a serious issue.First Faf and now him.What is interesting is how both times the ball started moving around and the innings collapsed.I still remember the insane amount of reverse Styen was getting in Dubai and that too around the 22-25th over mark.Both times they got away with it.If this keeps up soon everyone is going to do this.

Faf zipping and Philander starching, so what's next??SSC is going to be flatter than both Dubai and Galle.They need to change their strategy, this is not going to get them far.

 

[Atif]

ICC need to be consistent with punishments. Right now ICC is a joke!

 

[Zohaib Shah]

This is a bit shocking stuff. Since I always considered South Africans to be hard working cricketers.

 

[Mamoon]

ICC needs to grow a pair and ban these guys for 3/4 matches along with hefty fines. This is getting ridiculous now, looks like SA would be impotent in these conditions with tampering.

 

[Saqs]

They have have been caught twice now and both cases gotten away with a slap on the wrist

Yeah, second time offense, surely there should have been something more done about it this time.

And what's with the cover-up?

No footage was aired on live tv? Why exactly?

Not one article on Cricinfo's main page, only a mention of it on their twitter account.

 

[Saqs]

This is a bit shocking stuff. Since I always considered South Africans to be hard working cricketers.

Hardworking like Cronje, Gibbs et al?

Or hardworking like Faf and Philander et al?

 

[Arsal_AK]

Even if he doesn't pick wickets, others did.

What a bunch of cheaters and losers.

True.Pathetic from SA.

 

[Saqs]

So this is the reason why Steyn went from 'useless' to 'ruthless' as per the match report?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I say Indian bowlers should deliberately do it right in front of cameras.

And if they get caught and umpires try to ban them instead of imposing a fine on them, BCCI should apply external pressure, threaten to quit the tour (away tours), threaten to go after the umpires (in case of home tours), etc.

Then these ICC people will understand the situation.

 

[Saqs]

Don't think that's a good idea lol.

All that will do is:

1. Propel the view that BCCI runs the show and are being thugs. Not good PR.
2. Propel the view that only subcontinent teams cheat. Not good PR.
3. In any case, South Africa still get off with a slap on the wrist.

 

[Bilal7]

Again? Come on Saffers, you have enough quality to beat Lanka without cheating.

Atleast Philander accepted his mistake and didn't try to come across as innocent.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Don't think that's a good idea lol.

All that will do is:

1. Propel the view that BCCI runs the show and are being thugs. Not good PR.
2. Propel the view that only subcontinent teams cheat. Not good PR.
3. In any case, South Africa still get off with a slap on the wrist.

Doesn't matter. BCCI will pound them into submission.

Might decides what is right (its not right but that's how it works).

So BCCI should do it and all SC teams will cheer for it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Again? Come on Saffers, you have enough quality to beat Lanka without cheating.

Atleast Philander accepted his mistake and didn't try to come across as innocent.

Yes very brave and ethical act he did after getting caught on camera (that was not shown to public but to umpires).

 

[Saeed]

If it was a Pakistani, he would have been banned for few some games. This world is so unfair.

 

[Kwremb]

This is extremely unfair on the opposition teams, they're repeat offenders. Something needs to be done about it.

 

[Bilal7]

I say Indian bowlers should deliberately do it right in front of cameras.

And if they get caught and umpires try to ban them instead of imposing a fine on them, BCCI should apply external pressure, threaten to quit the tour (away tours), threaten to go after the umpires (in case of home tours), etc.

Then these ICC people will understand the situation.

Didn't Sachin get away with blatantly picking the seam in a test match? Don't think ICC has ever been strict about this as long as foreign objects are not used.

 

[Bilal7]

Yes very brave and ethical act he did after getting caught on camera (that was not shown to public but to umpires).

Comparatively it is.

 

[Buffet]

Didn't Sachin get away with blatantly picking the seam in a test match?

I think, it was for cleaning the mud or grass. He was not supposed to do it without the permission of umpires.

---------

SA players needs to realize that we are no longer in 80s/90s where you could get away after doing blatant tampering. Now days you have cameras everywhere and getting caught twice so quickly means team is doing it regularly.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Comparatively it is.

Yes we should compare one's ethics with the lowest denominator.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Didn't Sachin get away with blatantly picking the seam in a test match? Don't think ICC has ever been strict about this as long as foreign objects are not used.

He did it and it was cheating. So did Imran, Waqar and Wasim and countless others.

SA had made it routine in today's age with proper laws.

Edit: I just read Buffet's post. Seems like Sachin didn't do it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Also ICC banned all of those players after that incident (Sachin rubbing the ball). The next Test match was made unofficial (if I remember correctly).

No one was given this light a sentence.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

SA players needs to realize that we are no longer in 80s/90s where you could get away after doing blatant tampering. Now days you have cameras everywhere and getting caught twice so quickly means team is doing it regularly.

Agree. In today's context, its a bigger crime.

 

[cricfan967]

What's funny is I was actually amazed at the reverse swing Steyn was producing yesterday.

 

[Arsal_AK]

SL should be given a 200 run penalty and Philander should be banned for 2-3 matches.A little fine is not going to cut it.Otherwise Faf will be zipping it again the next test.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

SL should be given a 200 run penalty and Philander should be banned for 2-3 matches.A little fine is not going to cut it.Otherwise Faf will be zipping it again the next test.

Exactly.

What a sense of justice is this?

You tamper, run through the side and pay the fine if you get caught.

If situation turns serious, setup a fall guy who will readily get banned for a match or two. The fall guy will be the one tampering the ball.

Sounds like a brilliant world domination plan in Tests.

 

[khalil1986]

Getting ridiculous now really, skipper along with player should get a match or two ban as a deterrent.

 

[Bewal Express]

As I have said often Reverse swing( banana swing) can only obtained through tampering.

 

[Kwremb]

I think Allan Donald is the man behind it. He has in the past talked openly about the need to legalize ball tampering. It's his opinion but shouldn't have brought into practice when it is still illegal currently.

 

[Arsal_AK]

What's funny is I was actually amazed at the reverse swing Steyn was producing yesterday.

Same here and in Dubai too.Insane reverse out off nowhere.Junaid and others weren't getting anything at all.In Abu Dhabi both Steyn and Vern weren't doing anything and then all of a sudden BOOM.

 

[Zohaib Shah]

Hardworking like Cronje, Gibbs et al?

Or hardworking like Faf and Philander et al?

So you want to paint a whole nation as a cheat? Based on three people's actions?

 

[Buffet]

I think Allan Donald is the man behind it. He has in the past talked openly about the need to legalize ball tampering.

Quite likely.

 

[Bilal7]

I think, it was for cleaning the mud or grass. He was not supposed to do it without the permission of umpires.

---------

SA players needs to realize that we are no longer in 80s/90s where you could get away after doing blatant tampering. Now days you have cameras everywhere and getting caught twice so quickly means team is doing it regularly.

Sachin wasn't cleaning the ball, he was picking on the seam. That might have been a cover-up story but anyone can see that he was tampering.

Yes we should compare one's ethics with the lowest denominator.

He did it and it was cheating. So did Imran, Waqar and Wasim and countless others.

SA had made it routine in today's age with proper laws.

Edit: I just read Buffet's post. Seems like Sachin didn't do it.

So Sachin, Imran, W's, Steyn and almost every other ATG bowler to play the game are the lowest denominator?

Yes ofcourse, Sachin never did anything wrong. Also, Philander can get banned for this incident if he gets the two points so he's been given the standard punishment for this sort of crime.

Him owning up to it might probably work in his favour.

 

[Bilal7]

SL should be given a 200 run penalty and Philander should be banned for 2-3 matches.A little fine is not going to cut it.Otherwise Faf will be zipping it again the next test.

200 runs? Lol, that is way over the top. The Five run penalty, fined for his entire match-fee, ban for one test or two ODIs along with a stern warning to the entire team is the good enough punishment.

 

[Saj]

Any player who is found guilty of ball tampering should be banned, rather than fined.

Fines aren't working, stronger action needs to be taken. This is blatant cheating.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

So Sachin, Imran, W's, Steyn and almost every other ATG bowler to play the game are the lowest denominator?

Yes ofcourse, Sachin never did anything wrong. Also, Philander can get banned for this incident if he gets the two points so he's been given the standard punishment for this sort of crime.

Him owning up to it might probably work in his favour.

Bud, you are missing the point.

1. Doing it once is different from doing it again and again (both are cheating but there are levels)

2. In those eras with no strict laws, things were different from this era.

3. Getting caught in camera and accepting something is no big deal. If you don't accept it, you would likely be pronounced guilty and be awarded an even bigger sentence (cos you were caught in camera).

4. Finally, a fine for ball tampering DOES NOT in any way change the fact that SL's lineup has been destroyed. So stricter laws are needed which is what everyone feels and they are making it known in their own ways.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Any player who is found guilty of ball tampering should be banned, rather than fined.

Fines aren't working, stronger action needs to be taken. This is blatant cheating.

Yes. Agree. We need bigger punishments than even 1-2 match bans.

Simple logic.

The consequences of tampering is that you can win a crucial match which can win you a crucial series.

Punishments must be STRICT when someone is found tampering.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

200 runs? Lol, that is way over the top. The Five run penalty, fined for his entire match-fee, ban for one test or two ODIs along with a stern warning to the entire team is the good enough punishment.

Big punishments act as deterrents.

200 run punishment is perfect deterrent.

SA tampered in UAE to draw the series with Pak 1-1.
SA tampered in SL to get this advantage.

Who knows it may also have tampered in Durban when Steyn produced a reverse swing spell out of nowhere to destroy India. Not saying they would have but can you blame me for thinking that way? Especially considering how Indians played Steyn prior to that.

 

[NZcricketfan]

If it was a Pakistani, he would have been banned for few some games. This world is so unfair.

Do we need to be playing the victim game.

 

[Bilal7]

Bud, you are missing the point.

1. Doing it once is different from doing it again and again (both are cheating but there are levels)

2. In those eras with no strict laws, things were different from this era.

3. Getting caught in camera and accepting something is no big deal. If you don't accept it, you would likely be pronounced guilty and be awarded an even bigger sentence (cos you were caught in camera).

4. Finally, a fine for ball tampering DOES NOT in any way change the fact that SL's lineup has been destroyed. So stricter laws are needed which is what everyone feels and they are making it known in their own ways.

1. Philander has only done this once. If you mean collectively then the Saffers are not the only team to have repeated the offence.
2. Laws for ball-tampering have been around a long time. Most of those players tampered under these very laws.
3. Faf didn't accept that he cheated, the whole of India was on the streets pronouncing Sachin's innocence. Philander could have done the same but he didn't and I respect him for that.
4. Yes, strict but rational. I fully support bans, harsh fines and penalty runs but not the over the top punishments being suggested.

 

[Saeed]

Actually no. Wasim and Waqar were massive ball tamperers and never got banned.

That was a different period. Even these africans got away then. Look at the most recent and this happened http://www.espncricinfo.com/ausvpak09/content/story/446437.html

 

[Bilal7]

Big punishments act as deterrents.

200 run punishment is perfect deterrent.

SA tampered in UAE to draw the series with Pak 1-1.
SA tampered in SL to get this advantage.

Who knows it may also have tampered in Durban when Steyn produced a reverse swing spell out of nowhere to destroy India. Not saying they would have but can you blame me for thinking that way? Especially considering how Indians played Steyn prior to that.

No, 200 runs is not a reasonable punishment at all.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

No, 200 runs is not a reasonable punishment at all.

Bud how does deterrent work?

If you agree with the concept of deterrent, its a perfectly reasonable punishment AS LONG AS the crime is proven BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT.

Like in this case.

In fact, this law will make teams instruct players to not tamper around with the ball. Minor harmless incidents can be distinguished from serious ones and fines can be imposed accordingly.

 

[Saqs]

The punishment should be the reinstatement of all or any batsmen that were dismissed with a tampered ball, a match fee, and a one match ban.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

1. Philander has only done this once. If you mean collectively then the Saffers are not the only team to have repeated the offence.
2. Laws for ball-tampering have been around a long time. Most of those players tampered under these very laws.
3. Faf didn't accept that he cheated, the whole of India was on the streets pronouncing Sachin's innocence. Philander could have done the same but he didn't and I respect him for that.
4. Yes, strict but rational. I fully support bans, harsh fines and penalty runs but not the over the top punishments being suggested.

Some fair points raised. But I don't personally consider Philander's acceptance as a big deal when you have video proof. Just because others haven't done it doesn't make his acceptance act respectable cos this isn't a big deal as one can clearly see. But that's just my opinion.

 

[EliteCynic]

The bigger question is whether Amla is aware of this? It was different when smith was in charge. Now, with Amla in charge, if he is aware about this, then I smell hypocrisy from the 'nice guy' of the team and would seriously dent his nice guy image.

More importantly I hope he realizes this is cheating and may not augur well with his beliefs. How would see himself in the mirror?

 

[Bilal7]

Bud how does deterrent work?

If you agree with the concept of deterrent, its a perfectly reasonable punishment AS LONG AS the crime is proven BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT.

Like in this case.

In fact, this law will make teams instruct players to not tamper around with the ball. Minor harmless incidents can be distinguished from serious ones and fines can be imposed accordingly.

This was a minor incident. You can't change the condition of the ball substantially with only your nails.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The punishment should be the reinstatement of all or any batsmen that were dismissed with a tampered ball, a match fee, and a one match ban.

How will you judge that?

Just give the other team a 200 runs.

 

[Bilal7]

The bigger question is whether Amla is aware of this? It was different when smith was in charge. Now, with Amla in charge, if he is aware about this, then I smell hypocrisy from the 'nice guy' of the team and would seriously dent his nice guy image.

More importantly I hope he realizes this is cheating and may not augur well with his beliefs. How would see himself in the mirror?

How much was Sachin's nice guy image dented when he actively participated in the cheating? In this case, we have no idea if Amla knew what was happening.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[/B]

This was a minor incident. You can't change the condition of the ball substantially with only your nails.

Was it harmless and minor in the match context?

By minor and harmless, I mean like if a player while handling the ball brushes over the seam or absent mindedly does something for a moment. That's what I meant by minor.

Not intentional stuff. That's never minor.

If it is, then all teams should start doing it and pay the fine. For Indian players, its not even pocket money.

 

[Bilal7]

Was it harmless and minor in the match context?

By minor and harmless, I mean like if a player while handling the ball brushes over the seam or absent mindedly does something for a moment. That's what I meant by minor.

Not intentional stuff. That's never minor.

If it is, then all teams should start and pay the fine. For Indian players, its not even pocket money.

How do know Philander didn't do it "absent mindedly?"

As long as foreign objects are not used, its a minor incident in my opinion.

 

[EliteCynic]

How much was Sachin's nice guy image dented when he actively participated in the cheating? In this case, we have no idea if Amla knew what was happening.

I think you are obsessed with Sachin. Doesnt matter now coz that's history and yes his image did dent a little bit else you wouldn't have dragged his name into mud slinging here. This is happening now and i have posted on PP, thus sowing some seeds of perspective on Amla's role.

I haven't claimed he knew it. I'm also posing the same q. But with Faf being caught recently, I hardly think he is innocent.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

How do know Philander didn't do it "absent mindedly?"

As long as foreign objects are not used, its a minor incident in my opinion.

Because he FREAKING ACCEPTED the charge. When you don't truly do something and you are accused of it, you fight. That's human emotion.

Plus from the video one can clearly see if it was intentional or not.

Bud, are you seriously putting forth a contrarian view just for the heck of it? Why would you even suggest that he would have absent mindedly done that?

Also when a ball suddenly starts reversing and one guys gets caught tampering the ball and accepts it, questions will be asked.

Its NOT a minor issue.

 

[Arsal_AK]

200 runs? Lol, that is way over the top. The Five run penalty, fined for his entire match-fee, ban for one test or two ODIs along with a stern warning to the entire team is the good enough punishment.

5 runs?? What is it going to accomplish.Might as well do nothing at all.

They tempered, got reverse and got Lanka out.5 runs isn't going to change that nor is it going to stop them from doing this the next test.

Soon everyone will be tempering for the sake of it.And why wouldn't when you can draw a series and get away with a minor fine.

 

[Buffet]

Look , serious tampering of ball is always done in planned way. You can always have some guy to take the blame but if you are using zipper, bottle caps etc then it is always planned in advance by team. It doesn't happen by accident.

Now for Vern incident, I am not sure if it was planned because no external object was used to change the shape of the ball. We can't say that Amla knew about it.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Any player who is found guilty of ball tampering should be banned, rather than fined.

Fines aren't working, stronger action needs to be taken. This is blatant cheating.

Neither cheating nor banning solve the problem, which is the harm done to the team. The 200 run penalty is actually the best solution/deterrent.

Ban also pretends that only Philander is a guilty party, whereas it's the whole team.

The Test was dead drawn, and suddenly SA have so much pressure.

 

[Mamoon]

Not to forget this is the second time in the space of few months. South Africa should be severely punished for this. I thought someone like Amla leading them would ensure that they don't indulge in such activities but that doesn't seem to be the case. He should pay close attention to the actions of his teammates.

 

[Mamoon]

200 runs is fine because it will surely result in defeat.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Look , serious tampering of ball is always done in planned way. You can always have some guy to take the blame but if you are using zipper, bottle caps etc then it is always planned in advance by team. It doesn't happen by accident.

Now for Vern incident, I am not sure if it was planned because no external object was used to change the shape of the ball. We can't say that Amla knew about it.

Neither cheating nor banning solve the problem, which is the harm done to the team. The 200 run penalty is actually the best solution/deterrent.

Ban also pretends that only Philander is a guilty party, whereas it's the whole team.

The Test was dead drawn, and suddenly SA have so much pressure.

Gold posts.

If ICC doesn't do something about this, then this would be a great blueprint to get to No 1 in Tests:

You tamper, run through the side and pay the fine if you get caught. If situation turns serious, setup a fall guy who will readily get banned for a match or two. The fall guy will be the one tampering the ball.

 

[Bilal7]

I think you are obsessed with Sachin. Doesnt matter now coz that's history and yes his image did dent a little bit else you wouldn't have dragged his name into mud slinging here. This is happening now and i have posted on PP, thus sowing some seeds of perspective on Amla's role.

I haven't claimed he knew it. I'm also posing the same q. But with Faf being caught recently, I hardly think he is innocent.

I am just as obsessed with Sachin as you are of Amla. I was merely trying to bring a little perspective to your argument and looks like it worked.

I doubt anyone would go against his entire team if they wanted to tamper with the ball and FYI, he didn't play that test.

Because he FREAKING ACCEPTED the charge. When you don't truly do something and you are accused of it, you fight. That's human emotion.

Plus from the video one can clearly see if it was intentional or not.

Bud, are you seriously putting forth a contrarian view just for the heck of it? Why would you even suggest that he would have absent mindedly done that?

Also when a ball suddenly starts reversing and one guys gets caught tampering the ball and accepts it, questions will be asked.

Its NOT a minor issue.

If you were the match-referee, how would you determine whether or not Philander did it absent-mindedly or on purpose? You would only charge someone if its intentional, right?

Some people said that Faf did it by accident, including his own team-mates like ABD. How would you distinguish between that?

 

[EliteCynic]

Not to forget this is the second time in the space of few months. South Africa should be severely punished for this. I thought someone like Amla leading them would ensure that they don't indulge in such activities but that doesn't seem to be the case. He should pay close attention to the actions of his teammates.

1. Yes, stern action has to be taken even if this was done unintentionally.

2. I think Amla is aware and is unable to do anything in this regard He is a nice guy who commands respect but not necessarily authority. I hope he is doing a good job of grappling with his conscience here.

 

[Bilal7]

You can't root this sort of minor tampering out of the game. Fielders regularly throw the ball to the keeper by bouncing it first and the keeper can scuff the ball up with his gloves over an extended period of time too. Its become very common.

The serious incidents involving bottle-caps, biting and zippers should be rooted out though.