POTW: Buffet

[MenInG]

An interesting take on the "Ashes effect" on the careers and legacy of England and Australia players is this week's Post of the Week winner - Congratulations to @Buffet

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The role of the Ashes Test series in defining the legacy of England and Australia players

Discussion in other thread had me looking which players have stepped up in Ashes. This include home and away Ashes. Players get lots of tests, way more than any other set of players from any two teams playing against each other. Smaple size is huge for any decent player because they will play...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

Discussion in other thread had me looking which players have stepped up in Ashes. This include home and away Ashes. Players get lots of tests, way more than any other set of players from any two teams playing against each other. Smaple size is huge for any decent player because they will play plenly of tests.

For any Eng and Aus players, they need to step up in away Ashes to be rated as ATG, but I wanted to see just over all for level below that.


The top bowlers in Ashes - last 25 years:

View attachment 148104



The top batsmen in Ashes - last 25 years:

View attachment 148105


We see usual suspects in both list. McGrath, Warne, Cummins in bowling list. Hussey, Smith, Ponting in batting list.

But,

Anderson: 39 tests with avg of 35 with 5 5-fers

Root : 34 tests with avearge of 40 with 4 tons


Anderson and Root are hailed as the the greatest bowler and the greatest batsman from Eng in the last 25 years, but these are ordinary numbers given both got to play lots of innings in their peak in Ashes due to regularlity of Ashes.

I intentioanlly ended the list with Anderson and Root to focus on them. Both have played 35-40 tests in Ashes. That's around half test career of good test players from other countries. Tons of oppurtunities to show the caliber.

In other thread , we were discussing that to be rated as great Eng/Aus players need to have great series in away Ashes, but I wanted to see if Root and Anderson actually have good record combining home and away.
Just wanted to see how PPers think about Eng/Aus players being rated based on performnance in Ashes. It's home and away combined so let's not get into discussion of ATG. For ATG tag, players from Eng/Aus have to step up in Away Ashes and have a good over all record in Ashes. McGrath/Warne/Smith makes the cut and all of us know that. Some other criterion comes in play, but great Ashes record is a pretty basic requirment for Eng/Aus players to be rated. At least that's how I see it.

Discussion is about how much weight do you give for over all performance, including home, in Ashes. Given performance of the best batsman(Root)/best bowler(Anderson) from Eng in the last 25 years, where do you rate them in world history? Do they even belong in discussion of greats?

Not talking about justifying how they are ATG or not ATG. That comes later. Simply do they even make the cut to get into that discussion? I am aware of volume for Root/Anderson. Volume has never made anyone ATG. I am looking for quality and Ashes is basic requirement for Aus/Eng players.

After looking at this, I personally think that both of them don't even make the cut for discussion. You can't be an English players with these records and make the cut for ATG discussion.

• Not great away record in Ahses
• Not great overall record in Ashes
• Very few away Tons/5-fers against top teams
• Not a single away ATG series against top teams

Yet, both of them have volume and good career avearge. I personally think that it's fantastic to have volume, but playing for Eng gives you a crack at volume a lot more than playing for other coutries specially if you are one format specialist. I think quality is the first requirment for making a cut for ATG discussion, if you lack that then no amount of volume can ever make up for that. You can have a fantastic 60 tests career with a huge quality and you are in cut for discussion.

Discussion is not about comparing Root/Anderson with anyone else or proving that they are ATG. They are 14th/15th best performers in Ashes over all in 25 years with a very very large sample size. I am not even talking about away Ashes exclusively.

Does being so ordinary in Ashes makes them ineligible for even being in the list for ATG discussion? Do volume and good career avearge alone put Root and Anderson in the list for discussion for ATG?

Discuss!

 

[Cover Drive Six]

@Buffet , congratulations! You provided great insights with your excellent analysis.

 

[jnaveen1980]

@Buffet Good one dude. Thanks for taking time to share nuanced details

 

[mominsaigol]

Great poster @Buffet always insightful.

 

[sweep_shot]

Even though I don't agree with many of Buffet's posts (his obsession with away records on "strong opposition dens"), I acknowledge he writes good and detailed posts.

Congratulations.

 

[Devadwal]

A great Poster and always talk based on the real facts/ stats

Congratulations brother.

 

[Buffet]

@MenInG : Unexpected, but thanks.

Thanks for comments fellow PPers.

 

[Devadwal]

his obsession with away records on "strong opposition dens"

This is exactly how player's are compared to each other.

I have learnt this insightful from @Buffet and totally change my perspective to judge the player's .

 

[mominsaigol]

This is exactly how player's are compared to each other.

I have learnt this insightful from @Buffet and totally change my perspective to judge the player's .

Then why haven't you changed your perspective on Travis Head? The greatest overseas performer in final icc events of all time?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Love the analysis. May not always agree but it's always thought provoking, and well constructed. Very well deserved.

 

[kron]

This is exactly how player's are compared to each other.

I have learnt this insightful from @Buffet and totally change my perspective to judge the player's .

Don't agree with the random parameters of 5 fers or scoring tons but I overall agree with his notion of having impact and performing in away tours.

 

[kron]

Then why haven't you changed your perspective on Travis Head? The greatest overseas performer in final icc events of all time?

Travis head is a great player indeed. Impact wise he is up there.
Away performances needs to improve in other countries too though.

 

[mominsaigol]

Travis head is a great player indeed. Impact wise he is up there.
Away performances needs to improve in other countries too though.

I'm just teasing him my dude.

Genuinely I just enjoy the aussie cricket team but Indian fans blow it out of proportion with me? It's just a game of cricket. It ain't life and death.

 

[atreus]

don't really agree with his methodology to rate cricketers, feel like it's very one dimensional but certainly respect his dedication and willingless to engage in conversations.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Graeme Hick is hailed as a legend by English Cricket fans due to his superior record in Ashes than his test record and his exploits in FC and ODIs.

 

[Rajdeep]

Excellent post @Buffet ...well done.

 

[mominsaigol]

Excellent post @Buffet ...well done.

Not this thread, In a Sachin thread. Our final battle will be Legendary

 

[Varun]

Just came across it: great post.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Congrats @Buffet you are one of the real cricket enthusiast here. Great cricket knowledge also

 

[Buffet]

Thanks every one for comments.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I'm just teasing him my dude.

Genuinely I just enjoy the aussie cricket team but Indian fans blow it out of proportion with me? It's just a game of cricket. It ain't life and death.

Australian team isn't as good as it used to be. They lost to India at home last time. Then Pakistan ended up actually participating in the 3 test series (something we have never done for over 20 years there) and to top it off they lost a home test to WI. Smith is past his prime sadly. Starc and Hazelwood are closer to the end line than they are to the start. Warner's gone. Pucovski has been robbed off a potentially decent test career. Labu is past his purple patch. Carey is no Haddin let alone Gilly. Mitchell Marsh is the only one who is finally starting to feel it at home in Tests. Khawaja and Lyon both are 35+. Cummins doesn't have the smarts of Michael Clarke either.

 

[mominsaigol]

Australian team isn't as good as it used to be. They lost to India at home last time. Then Pakistan ended up actually participating in the 3 test series (something we have never done for over 20 years there) and to top it off they lost a home test to WI. Smith is past his prime sadly. Starc and Hazelwood are closer to the end line than they are to the start. Warner's gone. Pucovski has been robbed off a potentially decent test career. Labu is past his purple patch. Carey is no Haddin let alone Gilly. Mitchell Marsh is the only one who is finally starting to feel it at home in Tests. Khawaja and Lyon both are 35+. Cummins doesn't have the smarts of Michael Clarke either.

Agreed on all except cummins. Cummins is a great captain and honestly better then starc.

He's still maintained icc and wtc dominance despite playing with a much wesker team.

Clarke had pointing help in developing an atg 2015 team.