Joe Root: ‘Winning the Ashes in Australia would mean more than anything’

[Buffet]

India has an ATG home attack with the leading spinners, but let's go this route, show me the statistics of these teams at home so their respective bowling attacks, where India is obviously far superior, is neutralized

proceed

Then some one will say that India had great batting to counter like you were saying earlier with Pujara/Kohli in peak. And then Eng had ATG bowling record by Anderson/Broad in home conditions. You can go in circles that way.

Bottom line : There is no factual evidence to suggest that Eng was harder place to bat than India in this era. We saw last 5 years. We saw last 10 years. We saw it after taking out Indian/English batting units out of the picture to not influnce data. Everything suggest Eng was not a harder place to bat.

In short, Root can't be given any brownie points for having Eng as home gounds. If you really belive that Root had a far tougher conditions due to playing home matches in Eng depsite data showing otherwise then how come he has failed to produce single ATG series away in Ind, Aus, SA and NZ so far? Yes, I know he scored 5-6 tons in 40-50 matches there but that's not greatness. That's good output from a very good batsman.

 

[atreus]

Then some one will say that India had great batting to counter like you were saying earlier with Pujara/Kohli in peak. And then Eng had ATG bowling record by Anderson/Broad in home conditions. You can go in circles that way.

Bottom line : There is no factual evidence to suggest that Eng was harder place to bat than India in this era. We saw last 5 years. We saw last 10 years. We saw it after taking out Indian/English batting units out of the picture to not influnce data. Everything suggest Eng was not a harder place to bat.

In short, Root can't be given any brownie points for having Eng as home gounds. If you really belive that Root had a far tougher conditions due to playing home matches in Eng depsite data showing otherwise then how come he has failed to produce single ATG series away in Ind, Aus, SA and NZ so far? Yes, I know he scored 5-6 tons in 40-50 matches there but that's not greatness. That's good output from a very good batsman.

SA and NZ he has them, Aus he doesn't, Ind he has ATG performances but not knocks.

anyway, My opinion is influenced by the fact that English pitches are pacer oriented and thus would be easier to most teams as every team in modern time bar SL have had good pacers while only Australia have had good spinners.

 

[Buffet]

SA and NZ he has them, Aus he doesn't, Ind he has ATG performances but not knocks.

Seriously, you are having a too low bar for ATG series to be honest.

NZ - He had score of 14,57 in one test 153 , 95 in second test. That's one great test and hardly an ATG series by any stretch.

SA - 24, 73, 50, 29, 110, 4, 76, 20 that's entire series. You call it ATG series, nah. Good series for sure.

Both were just good series at best with one good test in entire series. Not a consistent heavy scoring in series.


A few ATG series after 2010 looks like,

Kohli in Aus - 692 runs with 4 tons
Cook in Aus - 760 runs with 3 tons
Smith in Ind - 499 runs with 3 tons
Kohli in Eng - 593 runs with 2 tons
Warner in SA - 553 runs with 3 tons
Cook in India - 562 runs with 3 tons
Dravid in Eng - 462 runs with 3 tons
Pujara in Aus - 562 runs with 3 tons
Mitchel in Eng - 538 runs with 3 tons
Smith in NZ - 774 runs with 3 tons

Root does not have single this kind of series where he scored big runs consistently and that's the reason for having only 6 away tons in Aus/Ind/SA/NZ despite playing 40-50 tests. Just from my memory I did not recall single great series in these venues from Root, but I listed here after looking at stats. For this reaosn, I don't think just huffing and puffing to score one test ton in Aus will make him great. Him having a ATG series in Aus will certianly make him great.

That's the main black mark because all ATG batsmen have few ATG series in den of top opponents.

Now listing above does not mean that all listed players are ATG. Some ordinary players have great match, but each great players have many great matches. Some good players have a great series but ATG players have many great series in den of top opponenets. Root has none so far.

 

[Buffet]

@Buffet also, Don't you know that rank turners are only difficult if the opposition has good spinners btw? same way Greentop like English ones and dukes are only difficult if the opposition has good pacers, what team in last 10 years has a good spinner bar Australia and India?

Rank turners/Green top are not dangerous only when you have great pacers or spinners. Often ordinary bowlers are able to bowl fantastic spells in green top/ rank turners. We have seen that many times in Eng, SA and India.

Now if it's slow turner or pitch with some assitance but not too much, then you need skills to be effective. If pitch has too much assistance then it's bridge the gap between less skilled and more skilled bowlers.

 

[Buffet]

Root has two paths to be a tier 1 ATG.

1. Maintain a 50+ career average and score big in Australia to win an overseas Ashes.

2. Maintain 50+ career average and overtake Tendus record.

If he fails to meet one of those two but maintains a 50+ average he will be a lesser tier ATG.

If his average slips under 50 then he will move further down tiers.

Isn't it relaxing the critrion for Root. Path to tier 1 great means he needs to have couple of ATG series incuding Aus. He does not have any so far in den of top teams. Top tier greats have many ATG series in den of top opponents. Since he is from Eng, he needs to have Aus in that bucket. I don't think anyone will rate him as top tier great with just volume or SRT record. No one rated SRT for his volume, he was rated as top tier in history half way in his career and that was based on what he was doing in so many tough away tours consistently. Case in point Anderson, he has like 700-800 test wickets, but lacked firepower to take 5-fers in den of top test teams. He gets rated lower due to that despite having most test wickets for pacers.

I personally won't rate Root much lower just because his average slips below 50. I don't think he needs to impress anyone with average or volume , it's high enough. Also, it's harder to maintain 50 average longer you play so won't be surpised if it drops. I will still judge him based on what he did when he was playing well as long as that period is long enough and that's the case for Root. He has maintained good standard for a long time.

A very good player for me. Right now lacking three things,

1. Very few away tons against top home teams. Just 6 tons despite playing the most.
2. No ATG series away in any tough tour so far. All great players have many
3. Lacking performance against biggest rivals in their home. No Eng/Aus players can be considered great without performing in away Ashes. One scratchy ton won't fix this. One heavy scoring series will fix that.

Let me put it this way. If he ends with avg of 49 with ATG series in Aus and India. I will rate him as ATG and him not crossing SRT tally will have zero impact for me. Flip side will be reitring above 50 avg without having single ATG series and crossing SRT tally, I will see as a very very good achivement but falls short of ATG for me. Greatness in test has always been how you step up away. For Eng players, it's always been doing well in Aus.

 

[Ab Fan]

depends on what the terminology means for you, how many batters do you consider ATG? and whose the worst of them, because by this line of thought even the likes of Dravid and Punter won't reach the ATG status, perhaps you've more difficult standards for ATG than I do.

Tell me one ATG batsman who doesn’t have a test ton in Australia?

 

[BouncerGuy]

The thread was not about India and its condition. It was about Joe Root and Ashes but the whole thread has been derailed because we can't stop bringing India India everywhere.

STOP NOW

 

[SportsWarrior]

Do you agree with this rating?

England and Australia squad ratings: Which team holds the Ashes edge?

TOP SPIN: England have been preparing for this series years in advance, looking to win Down Under for the first time in 15 years, while the Aussies are aiming to keep their foot on English throats.

www.dailymail.co.uk

England and Australia squad ratings: Which team holds the Ashes edge with under a year to go?​

Lol at seamers rating. Australia is much better and they will eat England alive

 

[NishanKonar]

Joe Root is just a soft run statpadder like Kane Williamson. Like Hashim Amla. Like Jacques Kallis. Like Youni Khan. Fills his boots on easy conditions but goes missing when the going gets tough. This recent Pakistans rseries was perime example. Score daddy ton i 1st test on dead pitch but went AWOL in the next 2 tests on spinning pitches

If anything atleast Hashim Alma had some terrific knocks against peak Australia ( that hundred in Perth). Joe Root does not even have that

 

[NishanKonar]

There is a reason Kallis never gets mentioned in the debate for great batters in spite of his impressive stats. Neither do Hashim Amla. Or Kane Williamson. Same reason Joe Root will never be considered in that list

 

[Mamoon]

Joe Root is just a soft run statpadder like Kane Williamson. Like Hashim Amla. Like Jacques Kallis. Like Youni Khan. Fills his boots on easy conditions but goes missing when the going gets tough. This recent Pakistans rseries was perime example. Score daddy ton i 1st test on dead pitch but went AWOL in the next 2 tests on spinning pitches

If anything atleast Hashim Alma had some terrific knocks against peak Australia ( that hundred in Perth). Joe Root does not even have that

Root averaged 100+ vs India’s GOAT attack led by Bumrah in 2021 series in England where the batting conditions were difficult, most batsmen struggled and Indian bowlers dominated. Without Root, India would have won that series 4-0.

That series alone cemented him as one of the finest Test batsmen of the last 20-30 years with immaculate technique vs the moving ball.

 

[mb3407]

These are the fab four stats in SENAI away from home.

Only Steve Smith of this generation is in the conversation to be ATG. Truly distinct from others with 50+ avg

Williamson is clearly the worst.

Rest are all good players but nowhere near ATG status.

 

[Devadwal]

Root first priority is to a score a hundred in australia .

I don't think he can score looking at the his past record in australia.

Aftter most likely another pathetic performance by him in Australia ,he will forced to retire from international cricket due to Mental health issues .

 

[jnaveen1980]

View attachment 148098

These are the fab four stats in SENAI away from home.

Only Steve Smith of this generation is in the conversation to be ATG. Truly distinct from others with 50+ avg

Williamson is clearly the worst.

Rest are all good players but nowhere near ATG status.

Kane scores important runs. But they are almost always at home. Root is a versatile batsman. He can adapt well. Few analysis showed he is susceptible to extra bounce. He has an opportunity to correct it.

 

[mb3407]

Kane scores important runs. But they are almost always at home. Root is a versatile batsman. He can adapt well. Few analysis showed he is susceptible to extra bounce. He has an opportunity to correct it.

I was talking about tests only in away conditions.

Kohli, Root and Williamson are even far behind even Cook (he was an opener).

Good bats but not the very best

 

[BouncerGuy]

Please stay on topic now..

Thread is about JOE ROOT AND ASHES, NOT ABOUT HIS RECORDS AND COMPARISONS WITH OTHER

 

[NishanKonar]

Root averaged 100+ vs India’s GOAT attack led by Bumrah in 2021 series in England where the batting conditions were difficult, most batsmen struggled and Indian bowlers dominated. Without Root, India would have won that series 4-0.

That series alone cemented him as one of the finest Test batsmen of the last 20-30 years with immaculate technique vs the moving ball.

True test of a great batter is his ability to perform in overseas conditions. If Joe Root scored 500 runs in an series in India or Australia - then u can say something. This is why Kohli scoring 593 in England in 2018 is much more creditable

Scoring runs at home never has that same value as scoring runs in overseas conditions. Bcoz u grow up playing in such conditions. Scoring in overseas conditions is much more challenging as u are not used to such conditions. There is a reason we have the tag of " home track bullies" for such players who score heavily at home but not overseas

 

[Buffet]

True test of a great batter is his ability to perform in overseas conditions. If Joe Root scored 500 runs in an series in India or Australia - then u can say something. This is why Kohli scoring 593 in England in 2018 is much more creditable

Scoring runs at home never has that same value as scoring runs in overseas conditions. Bcoz u grow up playing in such conditions. Scoring in overseas conditions is much more challenging as u are not used to such conditions. There is a reason we have the tag of " home track bullies" for such players who score heavily at home but not overseas

+1

No one in history of cricket gets to one of the top batsman based on great series at home.

If you can turn it on against top teams in their dens then yah sure. For Root, India and Aus has been the top 2 test playing contries in his entire career. Big series in any of those two places would have lifted his profile because he would have faced different conditions than home against the two best teams of his era. Even going down with SA and NZ, he does not have any ATG series. If he can have a ATG series in NZ or SA right now, he can make a case for a lower tier great.

Since Root does not have single big series in India( the best team during his career), doing it against the second best team(Aus) will make the case for being a genuine great given he is an Englishman. No Englishman can be rated as genuine ATG without having a great series in Aus. In absence of that, he goes with Anderson and posters can debate if he is a bit higher or bit lower than Anderson.

Root is himself aware of that and said that to be rated as great he needs to have a big series in Aus. Big series is important to stamp the athority and not some scratchy ton in a long series. People make too big a point about no ton in Aus, I think it's a minor issue. Just having one ton, that's doable for lots of ordinary batsmen and does not show any greatness.

I think entire world will be watching next Aus series and Root. That will define his place in history.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I was listening to SKy analysis. After seeing INdia series Rob key is looking for 140k bowlers. I believe Mark wood had a okay series last time there. Atkinson can play a crucial role there. It also comes down to form of some of the players.

 

[Buffet]

I was listening to SKy analysis. After seeing INdia series Rob key is looking for 140k bowlers. I believe Mark wood had a okay series last time there. Atkinson can play a crucial role there. It also comes down to form of some of the players.

Archer if fit and firing can play a big role as well.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Archer if fit and firing can play a big role as well.

True. But people have to realize just because it bounces you don't have to bowl bouncers. That Bumrah's post match interview is something that needs to be listened closely . He explained the importance of not getting carried away with bounce or not obsessed with pole hunting just because you have a low total to defend. Ian Bishop has quiet often shared Bumrah's post match interview on his twitter. This is from april.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1781011159317123434

 

[atreus]

Seriously, you are having a too low bar for ATG series to be honest.

NZ - He had score of 14,57 in one test 153 , 95 in second test. That's one great test and hardly an ATG series by any stretch.

SA - 24, 73, 50, 29, 110, 4, 76, 20 that's entire series. You call it ATG series, nah. Good series for sure.

Both were just good series at best with one good test in entire series. Not a consistent heavy scoring in series.


A few ATG series after 2010 looks like,

Kohli in Aus - 692 runs with 4 tons
Cook in Aus - 760 runs with 3 tons
Smith in Ind - 499 runs with 3 tons
Kohli in Eng - 593 runs with 2 tons
Warner in SA - 553 runs with 3 tons
Cook in India - 562 runs with 3 tons
Dravid in Eng - 462 runs with 3 tons
Pujara in Aus - 562 runs with 3 tons
Mitchel in Eng - 538 runs with 3 tons
Smith in NZ - 774 runs with 3 tons

Root does not have single this kind of series where he scored big runs consistently and that's the reason for having only 6 away tons in Aus/Ind/SA/NZ despite playing 40-50 tests. Just from my memory I did not recall single great series in these venues from Root, but I listed here after looking at stats. For this reaosn, I don't think just huffing and puffing to score one test ton in Aus will make him great. Him having a ATG series in Aus will certianly make him great.

That's the main black mark because all ATG batsmen have few ATG series in den of top opponents.

Now listing above does not mean that all listed players are ATG. Some ordinary players have great match, but each great players have many great matches. Some good players have a great series but ATG players have many great series in den of top opponenets. Root has none so far.

I mean, what do you really want him to? his last 3 tests in NZ read as follows

226,14, 57, 153*, 95, that's very impressive if you ask me, he can't really change the fact he gets two match serieses.

now regarding this

SA - 24, 73, 50, 29, 110, 4, 76, 20 that's entire series.

he missed out on the capetown runfest where 1300 runs were made with 13 wickets and, other than that he performed in every test and led us to victory at Wanderers which sealed the series for all intents and purposes.

I think this is the problem tbf, You rate serieses as ATG on the basis of pure output, like Virat's Australia series? the series where the Run per wicket was like 44+? that's not an ATG series, maybe if India won but that's just cashing in on flat wickets.

Kohli's actual best series is The South Africa series of 2017-18 where he made like 286 runs in 6 innings, why? because it's not just cashing in on flat wickets and leading your team to no victories, South Africa prepared proper 1910s style wickets and he repeatedy performed on them, that's greatness, making 4 hundreds on pitches that made the opposition's top bowler retire? eh, not so much.

as you always say, Quality of runs > Volume of runs, England just got rolled by Pakistan on turners, back in 2021 if Root didn't score heavily on turners in Lanka we'd have gotten rolled there as well, that's why I rate that series rather than just "well It's not top 4 teams."

anyway I don't really think there is any batsmen in modern era bar Hutton/Viv/Lara who can have an ATG series in India these days, though Root's individual performances there are kind of enough considering he has bowling load in India as well.

his Australia record is a black mark, but if he performs next year in Australia, I don't want any moaning about it just being 2 ATG serieses considering all greats have just 1 or 2, Dravid has 2 (Eng ones), Lara has 2 (SL and Eng 1995), Kohli has 2 (SA and Eng 2018), Smith has 2 (Ashes 2019 and BGT 2017 but his are actually astoinishing), Root has 1 (SA 2016) and so forth, only people like Viv and Sachin and Hutton may have 3.

Rank turners/Green top are not dangerous only when you have great pacers or spinners. Often ordinary bowlers are able to bowl fantastic spells in green top/ rank turners. We have seen that many times in Eng, SA and India.

Now if it's slow turner or pitch with some assitance but not too much, then you need skills to be effective. If pitch has too much assistance then it's bridge the gap between less skilled and more skilled bowlers.

True, most teams come with 3-4 seamers and 1 spinner with the exception of India who have gone ahead with 3 spinners at times, wonder what's harder, a greentop or a turner then.

Tell me one ATG batsman who doesn’t have a test ton in Australia?

I can probably name a bunch of ATG bowlers with no 5fers in X country, another example would be Sobers having no hundred in New Zealand and Dravid only having 2 in SA/Aus after 60-70 innings.

True test of a great batter is his ability to perform in overseas conditions. If Joe Root scored 500 runs in an series in India or Australia - then u can say something. This is why Kohli scoring 593 in England in 2018 is much more creditable

Scoring runs at home never has that same value as scoring runs in overseas conditions. Bcoz u grow up playing in such conditions. Scoring in overseas conditions is much more challenging as u are not used to such conditions. There is a reason we have the tag of " home track bullies" for such players who score heavily at home but not overseas

Root averages 45 in India and Kohli 33 in England, Root has match winning performances in India during their 15 year streak while Kohli has nothing in England to say he won tests, just one great series, not really impressive.

Root is much better in India than Kohli in England.

I was talking about tests only in away conditions.

Kohli, Root and Williamson are even far behind even Cook (he was an opener).

Good bats but not the very best

Make the ball seam a bit with a good zip and watch Cook get turned into a tail ender, he was a good player but it says something when his own countrymen don't rate him and he has to rely on others to be rated high.

 

[atreus]

I was listening to SKy analysis. After seeing INdia series Rob key is looking for 140k bowlers. I believe Mark wood had a okay series last time there. Atkinson can play a crucial role there. It also comes down to form of some of the players.

It's a dumb trick and definitely would take away any form of home dominance we've, Atkinson/Carse/Wood all look good but that doesn't matter until England cure their biggest problem in Australia, lack of bowling support, until we've a good 4-5 bowlers or Stokes bowling regularly, the Australian Batsmen will single out the flaw in our defense and smash through it over and over, same way they did in 2017 and 2021.

 

[Buffet]

as you always say, Quality of runs > Volume of runs,

Not just me, pretty much everyone has that view.

Root has gotten lots of long away series in Aus, Ind, SA and NZ. Not having single series with more than one ton is not good record. Then he did not have impressive showing in home Ashes as well with average of lower 40s.

We can start listing this happened , that happened and all that, but if some one has played 150-160 tests playing for Eng then it's just silly to list lack of long series oppurtunities or him getting harder pitches to bat than peers. Root got plenty of belters in his long career and failed to have heavy scoring series.

You don't need to compare him to Kohli or anyone else, he simply falls far short right now. Plenty to do. Getting an ATG series in Aus will go a long way to push his stature high otherwise, he will finish his career like Anderson. Very few tons or 5-fers in tough away tours despite playing the most. Both failed to make their marks in Ashes home and away both.

Let's stick to Root and Ashes here. I was actually surpised to see that Root and Anderson, both failed to make their marks in Ashes even when playing home. I started a thread about it. You can join that discussion. This thread is mostly about Ashes in Aus. Let's keep threads on tracks.

 

[Ab Fan]

@atreus, forget about ATG batsman, can you name any elite batsman in this millennium who doesn’t have a test ton vs Australia?

I can name only one. That’s Joe Root. No one else.

 

[Buffet]

@atreus, forget about ATG batsman, can you name any elite batsman in this millennium who doesn’t have a test ton vs Australia?

I can name only one. That’s Joe Root. No one else.

He has test ton Vs Aus. He does not have a test ton in Aus.

I don't think making a test ton will fix Root's ordinary Ashes record. Eng/Aus players prepare entire life for Ashes and their legacy gets shaped by how they do in Ashes. He has very ordinary record in Ashes.

He has 1 , atmost 2 Ashes left.

 

[SportsWarrior]

@atreus, forget about ATG batsman, can you name any elite batsman in this millennium who doesn’t have a test ton vs Australia?

I can name only one. That’s Joe Root. No one else.

Is there any elite batsman, ATG, GOAT, ever who has played as much as Root and doesn't have a century in Aus? Even Babar who averages in mid 20s in Aus has a hundred there

 

[jnaveen1980]

I watched some of the last Ashes highlights. Most of them succumbed to the extra bounce that Australian pitches offer. Be it is defense or attacking it always gets them.

Watch the dismissals here from 2022 Gabba Test

 

[Ab Fan]

@atreus, forget about ATG batsman, can you name any elite batsman in this millennium who doesn’t have a test ton vs Australia?

I can name only one. That’s Joe Root. No one else.

He has test ton Vs Aus. He does not have a test ton in Aus.

I don't think making a test ton will fix Root's ordinary Ashes record. Eng/Aus players prepare entire life for Ashes and their legacy gets shaped by how they do in Ashes. He has very ordinary record in Ashes.

He has 1 , atmost 2 Ashes left.

Yeah I mean test ton in Australia?

Anyone?

Pak - Younis, Yousuf, Inzy( these are country greats not ATGs)

NZ - Williamson, Taylor

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yeah I mean test ton in Australia?

Anyone?

Pak - Younis, Yousuf, Inzy( these are country greats not ATGs)

NZ - Williamson, Taylor

Yasir Shah lol

 

[Ab Fan]

Yasir Shah lol

None.

Even Stokes, Bairstow have ton in Australia.

 

[jnaveen1980]

None.

Even Stokes, Bairstow have ton in Australia.

Actualy Australian pitches encourage stroke play. If you are going to be timid you will lose the plot. Root is not a dominating player even with the fancy shots he has been playing recently. It is not just about strike rate. It is about taking on pace bowling with aplomb

 

[atreus]

Not just me, pretty much everyone has that view.

Root has gotten lots of long away series in Aus, Ind, SA and NZ. Not having single series with more than one ton is not good record. Then he did not have impressive showing in home Ashes as well with average of lower 40s.

We can start listing this happened , that happened and all that, but if some one has played 150-160 tests playing for Eng then it's just silly to list lack of long series oppurtunities or him getting harder pitches to bat than peers. Root got plenty of belters in his long career and failed to have heavy scoring series.

You don't need to compare him to Kohli or anyone else, he simply falls far short right now. Plenty to do. Getting an ATG series in Aus will go a long way to push his stature high otherwise, he will finish his career like Anderson. Very few tons or 5-fers in tough away tours despite playing the most. Both failed to make their marks in Ashes home and away both.

Let's stick to Root and Ashes here. I was actually surpised to see that Root and Anderson, both failed to make their marks in Ashes even when playing home. I started a thread about it. You can join that discussion. This thread is mostly about Ashes in Aus. Let's keep threads on tracks.

Eh Root led England to victory in 2015 Ashes and Anderson in the 2010 Ashes was pivotal and was awarded.

Anyway, a big series in Australia puts him in the top 10, otherwise he'll just be the Dravid/Ponting/Sanga tier, though his struggles in Australia are also massively exaggerated, considering his first Ashes came in the series where he was 22 and the English team was completely falling apart, he did well in the second but failed in the 21 series (or moreso, from his standard) inbetween the covid where England did not wanna go to Australia at the first place.

not excusing his inferior performance in Australia and he definitely has the dreaded backfoot nudge technical flaw in Australia, just that even then there is context to his Australian tours that is often overlooked.

@atreus, forget about ATG batsman, can you name any elite batsman in this millennium who doesn’t have a test ton vs Australia?

I can name only one. That’s Joe Root. No one else.

Elite? Shiveraine Chanderpaul

anyway, so the difference between ATG and Elite for you is making a single hundred in Australia?

so if he makes one or two in 2025 Ashes, where does he fall for you then.

 

[atreus]

Actualy Australian pitches encourage stroke play. If you are going to be timid you will lose the plot. Root is not a dominating player even with the fancy shots he has been playing recently. It is not just about strike rate. It is about taking on pace bowling with aplomb

He is very backfoot oriented (good in Australia) but a lot of the times he just tries to nudge and change the ball's trajectory (Not ideal in Australia) and that's what he gets out trying.

 

[sweep_shot]

Root is an undisputed ATG. So what if he doesn't perform in Australia?

 

[Buffet]

Eh Root led England to victory in 2015 Ashes and Anderson in the 2010 Ashes was pivotal and was awarded.

1 good series for Root out of 6-7 and 1 for anderson out of 9-10 Ashes? Come on, that's not leaving a mark in Ashes. That's very ordinary. They have played 35-40 tests in Ashes. I think you expect very little from the best batsman and the best bowler to play for Eng in decades and going too easy on them.

Volume will put them probably among the top 25 bowlers and batsmen. Greatness will be a few big series in den of top teams. For Eng players, it got to be Aus to be rated. Anderson is finished his career but Root has one more chance in Aus. I think he has a great chance given Aus bolwers are aging and all of them will be in wrong side of 30s.

Hope to see a really big series from Root in Aus. That will leave a great legacy. Archer and Wood needs to be fully fit and firing. It can be done. I have been watching only the first 2-3 matches in Ashes in Aus because series gets done by then. I would love to watch entire series for a change. If it's only the first 2-3 tests then I want to see results other way around in next series. Ashes deserves Eng doing well in Aus as well.

 

[Ab Fan]

Eh Root led England to victory in 2015 Ashes and Anderson in the 2010 Ashes was pivotal and was awarded.

Anyway, a big series in Australia puts him in the top 10, otherwise he'll just be the Dravid/Ponting/Sanga tier, though his struggles in Australia are also massively exaggerated, considering his first Ashes came in the series where he was 22 and the English team was completely falling apart, he did well in the second but failed in the 21 series (or moreso, from his standard) inbetween the covid where England did not wanna go to Australia at the first place.

not excusing his inferior performance in Australia and he definitely has the dreaded backfoot nudge technical flaw in Australia, just that even then there is context to his Australian tours that is often overlooked.


Elite? Shiveraine Chanderpaul

anyway, so the difference between ATG and Elite for you is making a single hundred in Australia?

so if he makes one or two in 2025 Ashes, where does he fall for you then.

Yeah he belongs at that level for me. Chanderpaul level who also averages 51 with bat.

If you haven’t hit a ton in a major nation like Australia in over 14-15 tests, it is certainly a blemish and can’t be rated ATG. If Root can hit a ton in Australia and maintain his average over 50 and because his runs tally is already pretty good, I will start rating him at ATG level like Dravid, Miandad, Sanga.

His average is 50.8 in Test cricket currently so need to make sure he doesn’t go through a bad form or patch.Otherwise hard to rate a guy averaging below 50 and poor record in Australia as ATG.

 

[Ab Fan]

Actualy Australian pitches encourage stroke play. If you are going to be timid you will lose the plot. Root is not a dominating player even with the fancy shots he has been playing recently. It is not just about strike rate. It is about taking on pace bowling with aplomb

Root is a fluent player though, likes to take the scoreboard ticking. He is not dominating but will keep himself busy and make the scoreboard ticking.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Joe root wants to win ashes and I think that would be his final frontier as well. He may retire after that

 

[Romali_rotti]

I watched some of the last Ashes highlights. Most of them succumbed to the extra bounce that Australian pitches offer. Be it is defense or attacking it always gets them.

Watch the dismissals here from 2022 Gabba Test

That was a lively wicket, yikes England bats were just sitting ducks, this brings back some of the painful memmories of how Indians fared in 1999 during their tour of Aus with only SRT scoring any runs and Laxman towards the last innings of the tour...

 

[jnaveen1980]

He is very backfoot oriented (good in Australia) but a lot of the times he just tries to nudge and change the ball's trajectory (Not ideal in Australia) and that's what he gets out trying.

Kane williamson has phd in nudging. Quiet often he would inside on to stumps.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Eh Root led England to victory in 2015 Ashes and Anderson in the 2010 Ashes was pivotal and was awarded.

Anyway, a big series in Australia puts him in the top 10, otherwise he'll just be the Dravid/Ponting/Sanga tier, though his struggles in Australia are also massively exaggerated, considering his first Ashes came in the series where he was 22 and the English team was completely falling apart, he did well in the second but failed in the 21 series (or moreso, from his standard) inbetween the covid where England did not wanna go to Australia at the first place.

not excusing his inferior performance in Australia and he definitely has the dreaded backfoot nudge technical flaw in Australia, just that even then there is context to his Australian tours that is often overlooked.


Elite? Shiveraine Chanderpaul

anyway, so the difference between ATG and Elite for you is making a single hundred in Australia?

so if he makes one or two in 2025 Ashes, where does he fall for you then.

Dravid averages 53 away from home, Root averages 45, let alone being better he needs to do a lot more to even get to Dravids level.

Dravid has a Man of the series performance in Aus, Root doesn’t even have one century.

 

[atreus]

Dravid averages 53 away from home, Root averages 45, let alone being better he needs to do a lot more to even get to Dravids level.

Dravid has a Man of the series performance in Aus, Root doesn’t even have one century.

Root averages 47 away from home, Dravid against the strongest teams of his era.

vs Aus — Averages 38 with 2 hundreds in 62 innings
vs South Africa — Averages 33 with 2 hundreds in 40 innings

Root against the best teams of his era

vs Aus — Averages 40 with 4 hundreds in 65 innings
vs Ind — Averages 58 with 10 hundreds in 55 innings
vs South Africa — Averages 46 with 2 hundreds in 27 innings

I'm not convinced by a performance in Australia on the flattest decks ever against Australia C lineup, as legitmate as Williamson's 3 ton series. Dravid and Root are about same tier away from home, Dravid sucked in more countries but had a bigger series AKA England

Anyway Dravid played in the highway era of 2000s where Tom, Dick, Harry, Hussey, Yousuf, Chanders were averaging 50+ while in last 10 years, nobody averages that much anymore and statistically this is the hardest era since 1950s, and thus fundamentally it's harder to score and runs today are more valuable, btw Root doesn't have a trash tier 2000s Zimbabwe and Bangladesh attack to score off and amp up his average that Dravid did.

1 good series for Root out of 6-7 and 1 for anderson out of 9-10 Ashes? Come on, that's not leaving a mark in Ashes. That's very ordinary. They have played 35-40 tests in Ashes. I think you expect very little from the best batsman and the best bowler to play for Eng in decades and going too easy on them.

Volume will put them probably among the top 25 bowlers and batsmen. Greatness will be a few big series in den of top teams. For Eng players, it got to be Aus to be rated. Anderson is finished his career but Root has one more chance in Aus. I think he has a great chance given Aus bolwers are aging and all of them will be in wrong side of 30s.

Hope to see a really big series from Root in Aus. That will leave a great legacy. Archer and Wood needs to be fully fit and firing. It can be done. I have been watching only the first 2-3 matches in Ashes in Aus because series gets done by then. I would love to watch entire series for a change. If it's only the first 2-3 tests then I want to see results other way around in next series. Ashes deserves Eng doing well in Aus as well.

well it's impactful, Anderson was pivotal to our first series win down under since 80s and Root won us the last ashes we did, anyway I definitely don't think they're great ashes players but pretty impactful, regardless Anderson has some context too, like one is Ponting murdering him in 2007 when he was genuinely awful bowler, or when he bowled with Broken ribs in 2013-14 Ashes, not excusing it, just suggesting as a matured pacer he wasn't as bad as his numbers suggest down under.

Yeah well we'll see, one hundred for Root is top 20 territory, multiple hundreds and a big series is top 10 territory.

Yeah he belongs at that level for me. Chanderpaul level who also averages 51 with bat.

If you haven’t hit a ton in a major nation like Australia in over 14-15 tests, it is certainly a blemish and can’t be rated ATG. If Root can hit a ton in Australia and maintain his average over 50 and because his runs tally is already pretty good, I will start rating him at ATG level like Dravid, Miandad, Sanga.

His average is 50.8 in Test cricket currently so need to make sure he doesn’t go through a bad form or patch.Otherwise hard to rate a guy averaging below 50 and poor record in Australia as ATG.

Nah Chanders was meh

he played in an era where averaging 50 was something 20+ batters achieved, still stayed behind Lara and then Gayle and Sarwan and so forth, was selfish and loved his average more than he loved his team, stacked on not outs to reach a 50 average but funnily his run per innings as a 51 averaging middle order bat are less than Alastair Cook with 45 average as an English opener, 42.3 vs 42.85. more importantly, never performed against big Australian attack, only went big against South Africa once and that was on a proper road against the weakest South African attack since readmission to international cricket.

Very good player, but nowhere near any of the fab 4 imo bar perhaps Williamson, KP and Cook were better than him.

anyway, I agree that one hundred in Australia should only get him to Dravid/Sanga tier though clearly the best of that tier, a big series in Australia, like a big one and a 52+ average should get him to the Smith/Lara tier, and a big series in aus but a 50-52 in the top ten atleast, I get it, a hundred in Australia for many is a checklist to pass.

Kane williamson has phd in nudging. Quiet often he would inside on to stumps.

Well Kanos got proper roads in Australia, Root doesn't.

apologies to everyone for taking time for this response, was focusing on the NZ match.

 

[Buffet]

As far as tier of Dravid and Root is concerned,

Dravid had,

• 602 runs with 3 tons in Eng
• 461 runs in 3 tons in Eng
• Helping his team to win first ever series in Pak with 2 tons
• Helping his team draw series in Aus with 600 plus runs

Now, Root has played 150 tests and yet does not have a single series where he scored more than 1 ton in

Ind
SA
NZ
Aus
Pak

David away avg 53 & 21 tons with many heavy scoring series in Eng and historic series in Aus/Pak

A huge gap

Root away avg of 46 & 14 tons with no heavy scoring series against good teams


Root will need at least 2-3 great away series against good teams to get to Dravid's level if not more. Gap is just too wide. Having a great series in Aus will bidge some gap.



.

 

[Mamoon]

True test of a great batter is his ability to perform in overseas conditions. If Joe Root scored 500 runs in an series in India or Australia - then u can say something. This is why Kohli scoring 593 in England in 2018 is much more creditable

Scoring runs at home never has that same value as scoring runs in overseas conditions. Bcoz u grow up playing in such conditions. Scoring in overseas conditions is much more challenging as u are not used to such conditions. There is a reason we have the tag of " home track bullies" for such players who score heavily at home but not overseas

Trust test of any batsman is performing in difficult conditions vs high quality bowling. This home & away segregation is only for people who don’t watch cricket and look at things in black & white.

You can have easy conditions away from home and tough conditions at home. You can always encounter tough conditions vs teams that are not considered great.

Not every run that you score away from home is more challenging or valuable than every run that you score at home. Similarly, not every run that you score in let’s say Australia is more challenging than every run that you score in Bangladesh.

For example, any batsman will find it easier to score on a flat pitch in Australia than a rank turner in Bangladesh.

These intricacies will always be there and people who watch cricket and don’t make blanket statements about home vs away, strong vs weak teams etc. will appreciate these intricacies.

Root vs India in 2021 is one of the highest levels of Test batting demonstrated in 150 years of Test cricket and no one should give a flying fig about the fact that he was playing at home. Tough conditions are tough conditions. Good bowling is bowling.

Furthermore, any batsman who is more prolific at home than he is away from home is going to bring more value to the team because you will always player more matches at home than you would away. A player like Labuschange (great at home, poor away from home) will always be more useful to a team than a player like Rahane (poor at home, great away from home).

 

[Buffet]

You can have easy conditions away from home and tough conditions at home.

Playing away from home against good teams is not just about tough pitches. It's also about opposition playing in their familiar condition and as visitor you having to overpower them by playing better than them. That's define greatness.

True great ness in test cricket is always about how you step up in against good teams in their den. Home track bullying is also important for all teams, but home track bullies have been dome a dozen in history of cricket but very few players have been able to do score heavily in tough tours. That's why most teams do well at home and do poorly away in history of cricket. It's just hard.

Look at Root, he has not gotten single series in Aus, Ind, NZ, SA and Pak with more than one ton, but he can go big in series at home despite having fair share of tough/easy pitches home and away both. Not just Root, it's true for majority of batsmen. Majority of players find easier to paly at home and simple reason is they grew up playing in those conditions.

Some one called Siddhu used to bash Warne in India. Some others did the same. Hardly makes them great. Greatness would have been having heavy scoring series in Aus, SA, Eng etc for Siddhu.

 

[Mamoon]

Playing away from home against good teams is not just about tough pitches. It's also about opposition playing in their familiar condition and as visitor you having to overpower them by playing better than them. That's define greatness.

True great ness in test cricket is always about how you step up in against good teams in their den. Home track bullying is also important for all teams, but home track bullies have been dome a dozen in history of cricket but very few players have been able to do score heavily in tough tours. That's why most teams do well at home and do poorly away in history of cricket. It's just hard.

Look at Root, he has not gotten single series in Aus, Ind, NZ, SA and Pak with more than one ton, but he can go big in series at home despite having fair share of tough/easy pitches home and away both. Not just Root, it's true for majority of batsmen. Majority of players find easier to paly at home and simple reason is they grew up playing in those conditions.

Some one called Siddhu used to bash Warne in India. Some others did the same. Hardly makes them great. Greatness would have been having heavy scoring series in Aus, SA, Eng etc for Siddhu.

Tough conditions are tough conditions. Being familiarized with tough conditions doesn’t reduce the difficulty of the challenge. For example, Kohli has been a joke vs spin in the last 5 years on turning pitches in India.

Sidhu was a phenomenal player of spin bowling. You have to be to dominate Warne on spin-friendly wickets.

Greatness is not defined by what you do away from home; greatness is definitely by what you do home and away.

A batsman who averages 30 at home and 70 away from home is by no means a great player. He is just great in certain conditions.

 

[Ab Fan]

Root averages 47 away from home, Dravid against the strongest teams of his era.

vs Aus — Averages 38 with 2 hundreds in 62 innings
vs South Africa — Averages 33 with 2 hundreds in 40 innings

Root against the best teams of his era

vs Aus — Averages 40 with 4 hundreds in 65 innings
vs Ind — Averages 58 with 10 hundreds in 55 innings
vs South Africa — Averages 46 with 2 hundreds in 27 innings

I'm not convinced by a performance in Australia on the flattest decks ever against Australia C lineup, as legitmate as Williamson's 3 ton series. Dravid and Root are about same tier away from home, Dravid sucked in more countries but had a bigger series AKA England


Nah Chanders was meh

he played in an era where averaging 50 was something 20+ batters achieved, still stayed behind Lara and then Gayle and Sarwan and so forth, was selfish and loved his average more than he loved his team, stacked on not outs to reach a 50 average but funnily his run per innings as a 51 averaging middle order bat are less than Alastair Cook with 45 average as an English opener, 42.3 vs 42.85. more importantly, never performed against big Australian attack, only went big against South Africa once and that was on a proper road against the weakest South African attack since readmission to international cricket.

Very good player, but nowhere near any of the fab 4 imo bar perhaps Williamson, KP and Cook were better than him.

anyway, I agree that one hundred in Australia should only get him to Dravid/Sanga tier though clearly the best of that tier, a big series in Australia, like a big one and a 52+ average should get him to the Smith/Lara tier, and a big series in aus but a 50-52 in the top ten atleast, I get it, a hundred in Australia for many is a checklist to pass.

I understand you have to defend Root but it doesn’t make sense by undermining players who have done it across eras and decades like Chanderpaul. He has played for almost three decades.

Anyways, I don’t consider Chanders an ATG and the big reason behind it is his failure in Australia which you rightly mentioned. But in a similar way, this is exactly the reason why Joe Root can’t be rated as ATG. He has never performed in Australia and until he does that, he would probably remain under radar. You answered yourself why Root can’t be rated highly.

 

[Technics 1210]

Root is an undisputed ATG. So what if he doesn't perform in Australia?

It is another filter created by Indian fans because they know within 5 years, almost every Indian record will be smashed to smithereens.

 

[Buffet]

Tough conditions are tough conditions. Being familiarized with tough conditions doesn’t reduce the difficulty of the challenge.

It's sure does. It does on average for pretty much every single player. If you grew up playing in certain conditions then doing well there is drastically easier than some one who is playing on those condition first time. It does reduce the challege by a lot.

Why do you think Eng goes through routine thrashing in Aus and and then against the same Aus team they can compete at home? Why do you think India won most series at home in 90s but won nothing away. Reason is simple, players found more challenging to overpower oppositions when they were away but could hold thier own at home agasint the same set of players.

You can cite exception or players having poor form, but it's just absurd argument you are making here.

 

[Buffet]

I understand you have to defend Root but it doesn’t make sense by undermining players who have done it across eras and decades like Chanderpaul. He has played for almost three decades.

Anyways, I don’t consider Chanders an ATG and the big reason behind it is his failure in Australia which you rightly mentioned. But in a similar way, this is exactly the reason why Joe Root can’t be rated as ATG. He has never performed in Australia and until he does that, he would probably remain under radar. You answered yourself why Root can’t be rated highly.

Yes, Aus is one place where all English batsmen need to perform to be rated due to history and playing so often, but I will rate Root as ATG if he can have couple of ATG series in other top home teams even if he fails in Aus. May be English pundits won't rate Root high without performing in Aus. As said by Root, he will not rate himself high without peroformance in Aus, but I will rate Root high if he can have couple of heavy scoring series in SA, Ind etc.

Yes, as a lower tier great, because no higher tier great exists without doing well in Aus. Aus has been one country which always had good home record with a good test team in all periods, but you don't have to be higher tier great.

Root is a fantastic player. Hope he gets a really big series in Aus next time. Aging bowlers and not so settled batting of Aus will be perfect time for Root to step up and win series in Aus.

 

[Mamoon]

It's sure does. It does on average for pretty much every single player. If you grew up playing in certain conditions then doing well there is drastically easier than some one who is playing on those condition first time. It does reduce the challege by a lot.

Why do you think Eng goes through routine thrashing in Aus and and then against the same Aus team they can compete at home? Why do you think India won most series at home in 90s but won nothing away. Reason is simple, players found more challenging to overpower oppositions when they were away but could hold thier own at home agasint the same set of players.

You can cite exception or players having poor form, but it's just absurd argument you are making here.

The point I’m making is that scoring runs or taking wickets in tough conditions at home doesn’t make the runs and wickets any less valuable or impressive. For example, if Root dominates Bumrah in swinging conditions in UK or if Bumrah takes a 5-fer on a completely flat Indian pitch, you have to appreciate the skill on display and not discredit the performances because they were at “home”.

England would beat, or at least compete with Australia in places like NZ and SA as well because there is plenty of swing/seam on offer. Would you say that they have home advantage there? Of course not. Similarly, Australia will most likely beat England in other venues.

It is not about home vs away. It is about the fact that different teams have different skill-sets. Even India’s most successful Test team (the post 2015 one) is not good enough to win in England, SA and NZ because they don’t have the skill to do, but their skill set works in Australia.

There is absolutely no reason to have an away bias nor is it written anywhere that away performances should take precedence over home performances. It does not even make sense logically because any player will play more than 70% of his matches at home.

Hypothetically speaking, how can a player be considered great when he is a failure 70% of the time? A home bully will always win more matches over his career than an away bully and at the end of the day, it is all about winning more than you lose and you can’t do that if you are not good in the conditions that you play most of the time.

 

[atreus]

I understand you have to defend Root but it doesn’t make sense by undermining players who have done it across eras and decades like Chanderpaul. He has played for almost three decades.

Anyways, I don’t consider Chanders an ATG and the big reason behind it is his failure in Australia which you rightly mentioned. But in a similar way, this is exactly the reason why Joe Root can’t be rated as ATG. He has never performed in Australia and until he does that, he would probably remain under radar. You answered yourself why Root can’t be rated highly.

I don't really rate Chanderpaul genuinely, good player but imo he was one of the embodiments of how Windies cricket fell, selfish, hiding behind others and so forth, he definitely isn't as good as his average, and he played for three decades and was a very good batter but never stood up and went top the order, which was fine when Lara was around but inexcusable when Lara retired.

 

[atreus]

@Buffet do you want me to address your Dravid and Root argument with my metric of rating batters or have you yet lost interest?

 

[Buffet]

A batsman who averages 30 at home and 70 away from home is by no means a great player. He is just great in certain conditions.

You will be hard pressed to find some one with that trend in theier career, but reverse are dime and dozen and they are called home track bullies. No one is saying that you fail at home and only do great away. Good record at home is bare minimum requirement to even make the cut.

We have seen generations of English players doing well against Aus at home but simply go missing when they play in Aus. It's the same set of players playing against each other. They know how to play well at home for obvious reasons and at the same time, Aus players are playing in non-home conditions when games are played in Eng. Combining those two factors, makes Eng competetive in Eng. When reverse happens, then Aus players are at home and Eng is away, then gap becomes too wide and we see one sided series in Aus.

Factor is always home and away for both set of players. Hope to see Eng/Root stepping up to have a hevy scoring series in Aus to win or draw. Just avoid one sided series for a change. Aus has aging set of bowlers and batting is unsettled, but it won't be easy because I would expect even a new set of Aus players to put a good fight at home.

 

[Buffet]

@Buffet do you want me to address your Dravid and Root argument with my metric of rating batters or have you yet lost interest?

Sure, if you have anything interesting to add, I would love to hear. I simply don't rate anyone very high if they have not scored heavily in single tough away series. Same goes for pacers. I don't rate them that high if they don't have much impact in tough tours. Batsmen can't win you games because you need 20 wickets, I would expect pacers to win some.

 

[Buffet]

I don't really rate Chanderpaul genuinely, good player but imo he was one of the embodiments of how Windies cricket fell, selfish, hiding behind others and so forth, he definitely isn't as good as his average, and he played for three decades and was a very good batter but never stood up and went top the order, which was fine when Lara was around but inexcusable when Lara retired.

I had somewhat same recollection but then just looking at stats, I see he played 48 tests at 2-4 positions. I have seen Shiv's entire career. I will put Root above Shiv but not by much.

Having said that, Shiv had exactly same issue as Root. Shiv in his entire career , scored more than one away ton against good teams only once in his career. Every time he will score one ton in away series and then done and dusted. Same Shiv had many series against Aus, SA, Inda at home where he scored more than one ton at home in one series.

Not many remember Shiv for exactly that reaosn. I don't want Root to be remembered for only for breaking SRT's record or scoring second highest runs. I want him to be remembered for stepping away and scoring heavily in 2-3 tough away series.

 

[atreus]

I had somewhat same recollection but then just looking at stats, I see he played 48 tests at 2-4 positions. I have seen Shiv's entire career. I will put Root above Shiv but not by much.

Having said that, Shiv had exactly same issue as Root. Shiv in his entire career , scored more than one away ton against good teams only once in his career. Every time he will score one ton in away series and then done and dusted. Same Shiv had many series against Aus, SA, Inda at home where he scored more than one ton at home in one series.

Not many remember Shiv for exactly that reaosn. I don't want Root to be remembered for only for breaking SRT's record or scoring second highest runs. I want him to be remembered for stepping away and scoring heavily in 2-3 tough away series.

not sure I can take the conversation seriously after the suggestion that Chanderpaul is in league with Root lol

 

[atreus]

Sure, if you have anything interesting to add, I would love to hear. I simply don't rate anyone very high if they have not scored heavily in single tough away series. Same goes for pacers. I don't rate them that high if they don't have much impact in tough tours. Batsmen can't win you games because you need 20 wickets, I would expect pacers to win some.

Fine, I'll make a documental comparision of Root and Dravid and present it to you.

 

[Buffet]

Fine, I'll make a documental comparision of Root and Dravid and present it to you.

I am not sure that you spending that much time to prepare a doc is good use of your time. You can just write 10 lines with main points here.

It's much harder to present arguments for players from different generations becasue they are not facing the same set of bowlers. To make a case for Root, simple step should be to present why he stands out compared to his peers in the last 12-15 years, that's more convincing and apple to apple comparison.

Tier of Shiv or Dravid is just academic because Root did not play at the same time.

 

[atreus]

I am not sure that you spending that much time to prepare a doc is good use of your time. You can just write 10 lines with main points here.

It's much harder to present arguments for players from different generations becasue they are not facing the same set of bowlers. To make a case for Root, simple step should be to present why he stands out compared to his peers in the last 12-15 years, that's more convincing and apple to apple comparison.

Tier of Shiv or Dravid is just academic because Root did not play at the same time.

do you've Dravid and Shiv in the same tier?

 

[BouncerGuy]

All these comparisons stuff has already been done in other root threads. Better not to repeat the same things in this thread as well..

Talk about him and ashes

 

[Buffet]

not sure I can take the conversation seriously after the suggestion that Chanderpaul is in league with Root lol

I do rate Root higher, but I don't think you should not take conversation seriously with other poster due to him rating both in same tier. Here we are trying to push Root in ATG level despite him scoring grand total of 4 tons in 35-40 tests in SA/Ind/Aus. Some posters may see it as more absurd than having Shiv and Root in same tier.

 

[Buffet]

do you've Dravid and Shiv in the same tier?

No, I don't. For me Shiv comes behind David and Root. I don't need any data for that.

Anyway, as mods requested, let's keept this thread for Root and Ashes in Aus.

We are derailing the thread with comparisons.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Here we are trying to push Root in ATG level despite him scoring grand total of 4 tons in 35-40 tests in SA/Ind/Aus.

That's pretty bad, I didn't know this about Root. Only 4 x 100s in nearly 40 test matches in those 3 countries ? Are you sure, that seems very very low, like a low to mid tier player.

 

[atreus]

No, I don't. For me Shiv comes behind David and Root. I don't need any data for that.

Anyway, as mods requested, let's keept this thread for Root and Ashes in Aus.

We are derailing the thread with comparisons.

alright

 

[Buffet]

Let's keep conversations about Ashes in Aus and Root.


Here are batsmen in Ashes in Aus : tons scored



Stokes, Cook, Malan, Bairstow have scored ton after Root debuted. No reason, Root Can't score a ton there. Root has skills to do it. I personally don't see a huge issue in not having a ton in one country. May be for Eng players it's a bigger deal due to history.

I want to mainly see a big series for Root in Aus so he can move up in following table, just one ton with not a big series is not something I want to see. 10-11 Aus players shouldn't be outperfoming Root.

 

[Buffet]

That's pretty bad, I didn't know this about Root. Only 4 x 100s in nearly 40 test matches in those 3 countries ? Are you sure, that seems very very low, like a low to mid tier player.

Please refer to other thread to keep this one for Ashes in Aus and Root

https://ppforum.pakpassion.net/thre...indian-propaganda.315361/page-8#post-12393416

 

[NishanKonar]

Playing away from home against good teams is not just about tough pitches. It's also about opposition playing in their familiar condition and as visitor you having to overpower them by playing better than them. That's define greatness.

True great ness in test cricket is always about how you step up in against good teams in their den. Home track bullying is also important for all teams, but home track bullies have been dome a dozen in history of cricket but very few players have been able to do score heavily in tough tours. That's why most teams do well at home and do poorly away in history of cricket. It's just hard.

Look at Root, he has not gotten single series in Aus, Ind, NZ, SA and Pak with more than one ton, but he can go big in series at home despite having fair share of tough/easy pitches home and away both. Not just Root, it's true for majority of batsmen. Majority of players find easier to paly at home and simple reason is they grew up playing in those conditions.

Some one called Siddhu used to bash Warne in India. Some others did the same. Hardly makes them great. Greatness would have been having heavy scoring series in Aus, SA, Eng etc for Siddhu.

Sidhu is actually good example of home track bully. Used to bash spinners for fun even on spinning pitches. But wud struggle badly in overseas tests - even in not so bowler friendly conditions. Even used to get " injured " before tough overseas test series to avoid getting embarrassed

Just like Joe Root is great even on green seaming pitches in England but struggles in Australia even on batting friendly venues like Adelaide or Sydney where everyone scores big. Also struggled badly in Pakistan once the pitches started turning

Playing in overseas conditions requires you to make corrections / adjustments in ur technique. Even world class batters struggle to make those adjustments. Like Ian Botham was better bat than Kapil / Imran but could never score a hundred against West Indies. David Gower had the same issue against West Indies. Even Dravid faced issues handling pace & bounce in Australia

This is what sets the ATGs like Sachin / Lara./ Kohli. They delivered big time against the best teams in their den

 

[Romali_rotti]

Like Ian Botham was better bat than Kapil / Imran but could never score a hundred against West Indies.

Ian Botham was not a better bat than Dev. Dev used to make the WI great quicks look like club bowlers. Ian Botham couldn't put bat on ball vs the WI quicks in WI or in Eng.


All fun and games, dunkin donuts against mediocre to avg opposition but when going up against the best if you disappear, well, then you are just not good enough to be considered a great....

 

[Buffet]

Sidhu is actually good example of home track bully. Used to bash spinners for fun even on spinning pitches. But wud struggle badly in overseas tests - even in not so bowler friendly conditions. Even used to get " injured " before tough overseas test series to avoid getting embarrassed

Just like Joe Root is great even on green seaming pitches in England but struggles in Australia even on batting friendly venues like Adelaide or Sydney where everyone scores big. Also struggled badly in Pakistan once the pitches started turning

Playing in overseas conditions requires you to make corrections / adjustments in ur technique. Even world class batters struggle to make those adjustments. Like Ian Botham was better bat than Kapil / Imran but could never score a hundred against West Indies. David Gower had the same issue against West Indies. Even Dravid faced issues handling pace & bounce in Australia

This is what sets the ATGs like Sachin / Lara./ Kohli. They delivered big time against the best teams in their den

That's what makes it tougher and it's not easy thing to do. You learn to play in home conditions and then to make adjustement is not so easy. Only greats have been able to do it and that's why in test cricket greatness has always about tough away tours. Otherwise we will have 100s of ATG if home domination was a measure of greatness.

Since it will be 4th long tour, I hope Root is ready and more adjusted for a big series in Aus. He is a great guy and I want him to get a big series there. It's more important due to him being an Eng batsman and history of Ashes.

 

[Romali_rotti]

That's what makes it tougher and it's not easy thing to do. You learn to play in home conditions and then to make adjustement is not so easy. Only greats have been able to do it and that's why in test cricket greatness has always about tough away tours. Otherwise we will have 100s of ATG if home domination was a measure of greatness.

Since it will be 4th long tour, I hope Root is ready and more adjusted for a big series in Aus. He is a great guy and I want him to get a big series there. It's more important due to him being an Eng batsman and history of Ashes.

I think he has a really good chance to score a 100 in the coming aus tour. Aus bowling is quite weak with a few of the boys getting ready to retire. It is setup perfectly for Root, it won't be as hard as it was previously for him...

 

[Buffet]

I think he has a really good chance to score a 100 in the coming aus tour. Aus bowling is quite weak with a few of the boys getting ready to retire. It is setup perfectly for Root, it won't be as hard as it was previously for him...

Yah, with aging bowles in wrong side of 30s, it's easier than previous series. Hope he gets a big series in Aus next time. If Eng can collectively step up then it may turn into a great series and I would love to see that.

 

[NishanKonar]

Ian Botham was not a better bat than Dev. Dev used to make the WI great quicks look like club bowlers. Ian Botham couldn't put bat on ball vs the WI quicks in WI or in Eng.


All fun and games, dunkin donuts against mediocre to avg opposition but when going up against the best if you disappear, well, then you are just not good enough to be considered a great....

That's what I m trying to say. Om paper Botham had more test hundreds than Kapil / Imran combined. But he failed to deliver against West Indies and that was a huge red flag on his resume. Else he wud be considered the greatest allrounder in world cricket

 

[atreus]

Botham failed to deliver against anyone after like 1980 ngl

 

[jnaveen1980]

Two english players Australians liked in recent times were Flintoff & Kevin pietersen as they both gave it back to Aussies.

 

[pratiktc]

2025-26 is England's chance to finally have a competitive Ashes in Australia. Likely it will be Smith and Khawaja's farewell series and Aus will be on brink of transition.

Eng will need all the big strong 85+ mph fast bowlers they can muster for this.

They have a year to get 3-4 of Carse, Atkinson, Stone, Wood, Dillon Pennington, Archer, John Turner, Josh Hull fit and test match level ready.

They can always turn back to Woakes, Potts type steady bowlers but this has rarely worked in Aus.

 

[jnaveen1980]

2025-26 is England's chance to finally have a competitive Ashes in Australia. Likely it will be Smith and Khawaja's farewell series and Aus will be on brink of transition.

Eng will need all the big strong 85+ mph fast bowlers they can muster for this.

They have a year to get 3-4 of Carse, Atkinson, Stone, Wood, Dillon Pennington, Archer, John Turner, Josh Hull fit and test match level ready.

They can always turn back to Woakes, Potts type steady bowlers but this has rarely worked in Aus.

They just have to get rid of Stokes. He has given some direction to the team. But oflate his batting has been a liability not withstanding the first Test contribution.

 

[Fanboy375]

Except 1 ashes Eng won none in Australia in 21st century.Now it is true that Australia never won any in England but when Eng play in Aus they get 5-0 defeat or 4-1 defeat.Besides 2010 Aus was the weakest side in Australia history after 80s

 

[aboveandbeyond]

I Reckon England will put this ageing Australian team to the sword. A repeat of 2010 - 2011 Ashes. 3 - 1 to England.

Come on England!