Joe Root versus Ricky Ponting versus Kumar Sangakkara in Tests

[atreus]

It's like comparing chalk and cheese

Ponting played 4 innings against Wasim near retirement, 4 against Ambrose (failed) etc, it's kinda tellimg if you've to gasp at that many straws to make Ponting's opposition looking impressive

 

[anikrc1]

It's like comparing chalk and cheese

No offense, I think you are just too nostalgic about the era you grew up with and rate the players of that era most. It's quite common among humans. Apart from Wasim , Warne and Mural, this era has as much or even more skillful bowlers than that era. But Ponting never faced Warne and faced Wasim during the end of his career.

 

[atreus]

Same can be said of alot of the bowlers u listed.

E.g.
Wagner
Southee
Wagner

Wagner – 27.6
Southee – 29.9



Harmison – 31.8
Zaheer – 32.9

 

[aboveandbeyond]

No offense, I think you are just too nostalgic about the era you grew up with and rate the players of that era most. It's quite common among humans. Apart from Wasim , Warne and Mural, this era has as much or even more skillful bowlers than that era. But Ponting never faced Warne and faced Wasim during the end of his career.

Murli 800 test wickets
Steyn
Pollock
Donald
Walsh
Ambrose

Your being ignorant. Punter faced these bowlers

 

[atreus]

Murli 800 test wickets
Steyn
Pollock
Donald
Walsh
Ambrose

Your being ignorant. Punter faced these bowlers

Root faced Steyn as well

anyway

Rabada – 22.1
Donald – 22.2

Cummins – 22.5
Pollock – 23.1

Muralitharan – 22.7
Ashwin – 23.8 (Yes, Ashwin is India bully but Root performed in India)

Ambrose – 20.99
Bumrah – 20.70

Walsh – 24.4
Hazlewood – 24.8

and so forth

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Root faced Steyn as well

anyway

Rabada – 22.1
Donald – 22.2

Cummins – 22.5
Pollock – 23.1

Muralitharan – 22.7
Ashwin – 23.8 (Yes, Ashwin is India bully but Root performed in India)

Ambrose – 20.99
Bumrah – 20.70

Walsh – 24.4
Hazlewood – 24.8

and so forth

Lol

Wasim
Waqar
Shoaib
Asif
Phillander peak
Pollock

 

[atreus]

Lol

Wasim
Waqar
Shoaib
Asif
Phillander peak
Pollock

Shoaib – 25.7
Nortje – 26.7

both faced Philander

Waqar – 23.6
Jadeja – 24.1 (home bully, but Root performed against him at home too)

Asif – 24.4
Jamieson – 19.8

Pollock was already countered

only one I don't have an answer to is Wasimz who Pointing played 3 matches against.

 

[Buffet]

Root has been the undisputed best batsmen in the world for 4 years now, as well as it being the hardest era to bat in since the second world war.

Hardest era? And that means what exactly given what Root has done in this so called hardest era?

3 best bowling sides in their home are Ind, Aus and SA.

Last 4 years when Root is undisputed best - Root averages 32 in Aus, 40 in India. Didn't play in SA so we don't have data, but played against SA in Eng and averaged 11 so we can only guess his perofrmacne if he had played in SA.

Now once you start going in bottom 4 then his away performance comes out. So the last 4 or entire career, Root has similar pattern. Piling up runs at home or piling up runs agaisnt bottom 4 countries away.

There is no clear evidence to suggest that Root is better than Ponting. Sure case can be made, but that's about it.

 

[atreus]

Hardest era? And that means what exactly given what Root has done in this so called hardest era?

3 best bowling sides in their home are Ind, Aus and SA.

Last 4 years when Root is undisputed best - Root averages 32 in Aus, 40 in India. Didn't play in SA so we don't have data, but played against SA in Eng and averaged 11 so we can only guess his perofrmacne if he had played in SA.

Now once you start going in bottom 4 then his away performance comes out. So the last 4 or entire career, Root has similar pattern. Piling up runs at home or piling up runs agaisnt bottom 4 countries away.

There is no clear evidence to suggest that Root is better than Ponting. Sure case can be made, but that's about it.

Such a weak argument

1. Match winning performance in India
2. Series winning performances in South Africa back in 2016 against Prime Rabada

Australia is fair enough but I don't mind it, what has Ponting done then? 41 in an England that was objectively far weaker than the India root faced, and his average in India is less than Root's in Australia, while Root was the top scorer in the 2021 tour of India.

I already dismantled this argument on another threat, Root can't do anything if he doesn't get to tour South Africa, the times he have toured he has either averaged 45 or 55, and trying to base your argument that he'd fail in SA on the basis of 4 innings (lol) is hilarious when we've actual sample size of him batting in SA when he was an inferior Batsmen to today and Rabada was a superior bowler, and he averaged 50 and has a series deciding hundred, is honestly just gasping at straws.

1. Root is one of the greatest players to visit india, singlehandedly beating India in one of their last test losses.
2. he has been excellent in South Africa against an ATG attack

again, rounding up India, Australia and South Africa to make it seem like Root has struggled in all 3 instead of just one (Australia) still doesn't work.

 

[kron]

Hardest era? And that means what exactly given what Root has done in this so called hardest era?

3 best bowling sides in their home are Ind, Aus and SA.

Last 4 years when Root is undisputed best - Root averages 32 in Aus, 40 in India. Didn't play in SA so we don't have data, but played against SA in Eng and averaged 11 so we can only guess his perofrmacne if he had played in SA.

Now once you start going in bottom 4 then his away performance comes out. So the last 4 or entire career, Root has similar pattern. Piling up runs at home or piling up runs agaisnt bottom 4 countries away.

There is no clear evidence to suggest that Root is better than Ponting. Sure case can be made, but that's about it.

Root never faced rabada jansen burger ngidi/nortje
4 pronged attack.

 

[Buffet]

Such a weak argument

1. Match winning performance in India
2. Series winning performances in South Africa back in 2016 against Prime Rabada

Australia is fair enough but I don't mind it, what has Ponting done then? 41 in an England that was objectively far weaker than the India root faced, and his average in India is less than Root's in Australia, while Root was the top scorer in the 2021 tour of India.

I already dismantled this argument on another threat, Root can't do anything if he doesn't get to tour South Africa, the times he have toured he has either averaged 45 or 55, and trying to base your argument that he'd fail in SA on the basis of 4 innings (lol) is hilarious when we've actual sample size of him batting in SA when he was an inferior Batsmen to today and Rabada was a superior bowler, and he averaged 50 and has a series deciding hundred, is honestly just gasping at straws.

1. Root is one of the greatest players to visit india, singlehandedly beating India in one of their last test losses.
2. he has been excellent in South Africa against an ATG attack

again, rounding up India, Australia and South Africa to make it seem like Root has struggled in all 3 instead of just one (Australia) still doesn't work.

You are mixing time line and going in tangent now,

If some one is undisputed best or had the best phase in the last 4 years then I will expect said player to dominate world cricket in that pahse. Best phase and undisputed best in world and yet here are his scores in India and Aus in the last 4 years,

0
0
2
5
5
6
7
11
11
16
17
18
19
24
24
26
28
29
30
33
34
40
50
62
84
89
122
218

Aus/Ind he has crossed 60 just 5 times out of 28 times. He did not play in SA in this period. That's the period when Root is undisputed best.

 

[Buffet]

Root never faced rabada jansen burger ngidi/nortje
4 pronged attack.

Exactly. Also, I have not seen Root scoring heavily on rank turners in India. Some big scores in India has come when pitch started relatively flatter and then deteriorated. It's not like he was playing like Sehwag. Not saying that he is bad player of spin, but he gets over hyped agaisnt spin some times.

 

[atreus]

You are mixing time line and going in tangent now,

If some one is undisputed best due to best phase is the last 4 years then I will expect said player to dominate world cricket in that pahse. Best phase and undisputed best in world and yet here are his scores in India and Aus in the last 4 years,

0
0
2
5
5
6
7
11
11
16
17
18
19
24
24
26
28
29
30
33
34
40
50
62
84
89
122
218

Aus/Ind he has crossed 60 just 5 times out of 28 times. He did not play in SA in this period. That's the period when Root is undisputed best.

Root has a career before too, AFAIK he is playing since 2012, and I'd prefer if you recongnise that rather than trying to handwave a bunch of his career, that's what you need to do to make Ponting look impressive, not the other way around.

now, let's look at it, Root's scores in India last two tours.

218
40
6
33
17
19
5
30
29
2
5
16
18
7
122*
11
22
86

now what did you miss out this time? that's easily pointed out by context, yes in the 2021 tour he failed outside of the chennai Match, but he was up against an ATG attack and he managed to hand India a defeat, out of last 50 tests India have only lost 4 times and one was singlehandely given by Root.

it's quite awkward to me that you who bluntly talked about how impact knocks are more important than pretty 50s but now that Root gives you a generational knock to achieve a feat only Pope and Smith have done otherwise, you revert to "he isn't crossing 50s enough", please make a choice on what you prefer.

now again contextually looking into this, he completely failed in the first three tests in the 2024 series, but what you did not mention was the fact that he was a frontline spinner for England in those matches and bowled a pivotal spell in the first test, he bowled 48 overs in the first test, 16 overs the next match and 43 overs the next match, bowling nearly 107 overs in 3 tests and that's where he failed the bat, once he didn't bowl he made a not out hundred and then another great game.

what exactly do you expect him to do against an attack with 3 ATG home bowlers? Bumrah, Ashwin and Jadeja? on proper rank turners?

now on South Africa, his scores in South Africa are as follows

24
73
50
29
110
4*
76
20
29
48
35
61
27
59
58

Even at the lowest of his career in the second tour, he still contributed to the wins at Capetown, his partnership with Bairstow was also important and contributed to the win at Durban in 2016, his 110 at Johanessburg was also series sealing and he has been very consistent in South Africa, that's reflected in his 50+ average.

frankly, his only struggle is in Australia, his work in SA only functions to debunk any notion of weakness against bounce and his work in India simoly works to further his legendary status, only flaw is Australia, so please stick to that.

 

[atreus]

also, just for Root's spin play, Root's numbers against leading spinners

Ravichandran Ashwin (the stats are same in India as well)
Balls – 719 (almost 120 overs)
Runs – 437
Avg – 62.4

Ravindra Jadeja
Balls – 1142 (almost 190 overs)
Runs – 499
Avg – 62.4, but 38.2 in India, but that isn't bad considering Jadeja is ATG at home.

Kuldeep Yadav
Runs – 55
Balls – 143 (22 overs)
Avg – 55

Nathan Lyon
runs – 439
Balls – 841 (140 overs)
Avg – 54.9

Yasir Shah (Root only faced Pre-Aus Yasir)
Runs – 263
Balls – 425 (almost 70 overs)
Avg – 52.6

Keshav Maharaj
Runs – 212
Balls – 316 (52 overs)
avg – 106

add in with some of his ATG knocks in India like 219 and 122 which came on turners where the medicore English spinners were effective/lethal, and include his overall record in india regardless of context and you get why he is rated highly, the single handed obliteration of Sri Lanka on proper turners don't even need mentions

 

[Buffet]

Root has a career before too,

Yes, he had but he was third best test batsman for majority of his career. You are saying that the last 4 years he has been undisuputed best so I want to see what he has done in the last 4 years when he was undisputed best. Did he rise to challnege, no, he did not.

Now this narrative that he is undisputed best in the last 4 years due to decline in Kohli and Smith is fine but he is not really dominating in the last 4 years as well. When you are competing for top tier you got to have periods like 5-7 years where you have some dominations. Where is that period for Root? Let's look at that period and then see what others did in the same period. Otherwise we are just trying to push simply a very good batsman in top tier without any dominating period where you stand out due to your performances.

I saw same narative with Anderson and seeing the same with Root. Best across eras consistently score tons or pick 5-fers in top opposition's den. Anderson and Root, both have failed in that. Root has like 90 attempts in Ind/Aus/SA/NZ and yet he has crossed 100 just 6 times. Same situation with Anderson with 5-fers. Both are fine players and great to watch, but both fall short for me from top tier.

Yes, Root has some more time so I am hoping he scores couple of tons in Aus. Not just one fluke ton, that's not I am looking for. Have a dominating series in Aus like Kohli had in Eng after struggling Eng. That will help Root for top tier discussions.

This scrutiny is for top tier discussion and there is no two way about it. All top tier candidates have that. I loved watching Root/Anderson both despite their shortcomings and both are very good player. I jsut don't think Anderson belong in the top tier and so far not seen enough from Root to put him in top tier.

I will give you example of one WI bowler. Walsh. Not many bring him up for discussion for real top tier and yet he was drastically better career than Anderson. So being clearly among the top tier has a tough cut off. Volume of runs/wickets does not make you cross that cut off.

 

[Buffet]

also, just for Root's spin play, Root's numbers against leading spinners

Ravichandran Ashwin (the stats are same in India as well)
Balls – 719 (almost 120 overs)
Runs – 437
Avg – 62.4

Ravindra Jadeja
Balls – 1142 (almost 190 overs)
Runs – 499
Avg – 62.4, but 38.2 in India, but that isn't bad considering Jadeja is ATG at home.

Kuldeep Yadav
Runs – 55
Balls – 143 (22 overs)
Avg – 55

Nathan Lyon
runs – 439
Balls – 841 (140 overs)
Avg – 54.9

Yasir Shah (Root only faced Pre-Aus Yasir)
Runs – 263
Balls – 425 (almost 70 overs)
Avg – 52.6

Keshav Maharaj
Runs – 212
Balls – 316 (52 overs)
avg – 106

add in with some of his ATG knocks in India like 219 and 122 which came on turners where the medicore English spinners were effective/lethal, and include his overall record in india regardless of context and you get why he is rated highly, the single handed obliteration of Sri Lanka on proper turners don't even need mentions

No one is claming that Root is poor batsman or not a very good batsman. I pointed only one thing,

Top tier batsmen score heavily against toughest home oppositions. That's what elevates your rating. I shared Root's inability to go big in Aus, SA, Ind and then some complains came that NZ was hard as well for 3-4 years. Well, Root has 5-6 tons in around 90 attempts in Aus/SA/Ind/NZ. That's just very low frequency of going big agasint top sides.

I mean since he played for Eng, we are talking about top 5 countries and only 3 poorest home teams are left. Are we really going to elevate batsmen for top tier for scoring heavily at home and scoring heavily away agasint the bottom 3 teams.

KP played for same Eng. He has lot more gun knocks than Root and had a much higher impact. No one pushes him for top tier due to his inconsitency. Top tier has a hard cut off.

 

[atreus]

Yes, he had but he was third best test batsman for majority of his career. You are saying that the last 4 years he has been undisuputed best so I want to see what he has done in the last 4 years when he was undisputed best. Did he rise to challnege, no, he did not.

Now this narrative that he is undisputed best in the last 4 years due to decline in Kohli and Smith is fine but he is not really dominating in the last 4 years as well. When you are competing for top tier you got to have periods like 5-7 years where you have some dominations. Where is that period for Root? Let's look at that period and then see what others did in the same period. Otherwise we are just trying to push simply a very good batsman in top tier without any dominating period where you stand out due to your performances.

I saw same narative with Anderson and seeing the same with Root. Best across eras consistently score tons or pick 5-fers in top opposition's den. Anderson and Root, both have failed in that. Root has like 90 attempts in Ind/Aus/SA/NZ and yet he has crossed 100 just 6 times. Same situation with Anderson with 5-fers. Both are fine players and great to watch, but both fall short for me from top tier.

Yes, Root has some more time so I am hoping he scores couple of tons in Aus. Not just one fluke ton, that's not I am looking for. Have a dominating series in Aus like Kohli had in Eng after struggling Eng. That will help Root for top tier discussions.

This scrutiny is for top tier discussion and there is no two way about it. All top tier candidates have that. I loved watching Root/Anderson both despite their shortcomings and both are very good player. I jsut don't think Anderson belong in the top tier and so far not seen enough from Root to put him in top tier.

I will give you example of one WI bowler. Walsh. Not many bring him up for discussion for real top tier and yet he was drastically better career than Anderson. So being clearly among the top tier has a tough cut off. Volume of runs/wickets does not make you cross that cut off.

Not really accurate, he was easily number 2 until the India vs England tour of 2016 but regardless, to address this argument I'll also simply memtion that even during his prime time his average in England was 39 and 11 in India, how is that not worse?

Root averages 40 against India, but what you're ignoring is India is an ATG attack at home with two god level home spinners and a pacer who averages sub 21, that is an insane attack and 40 against them is completely understandable, on top he has a match winning performance against that attack while Ponting on much easier pitches against a much weaker india was a dud, simply put, here is a chart for you for this decade

other than Khawaja who has played 10 less innings, 11 actually, nobody has outperformed him, infact nobody else even comes close.

this is a testament to the ATG attack that India has at home, not to the shortcomings to modern Batsmen, simply put Ponting in his whole career never faced a home attack as lethal as India that Root has faced, his 40 average is insane considering the workload he has tackled and counteracted.

and now for Australia, yes he averages 35 there, and yes that is an average stat, but the cut off you're mentioning for top tier is fundamentally only a thing for Root when he is compared to actual top tiers with about no holes in their records, such as Lara, Tendulkar and Richards. Ponting is frankly not in that tier of batsmenship, and thus Ponting is frankly not even required to have all that.

he averages against an attack of four decent pacers less than Root does against an Elite ATG home attack

Root's average in Australia is bang average while Ponting's in india is disrespectful, other than that, There is simply no argument for Ponting, if there was you would've presented one

 

[atreus]

No one is claming that Root is poor batsman or not a very good batsman. I pointed only one thing,

Top tier batsmen score heavily against toughest home oppositions. That's what elevates your rating. I shared Root's inability to go big in Aus, SA, Ind and then some complains came that NZ was hard as well for 3-4 years. Well, Root has 5-6 tons in around 90 attempts in Aus/SA/Ind/NZ. That's just very low frequency of going big agasint top sides.

I mean since he played for Eng, we are talking about top 5 countries and only 3 poorest home teams are left. Are we really going to elevate batsmen for top tier for scoring heavily at home and scoring heavily away agasint the bottom 3 teams.

KP played for same Eng. He has lot more gun knocks than Root and had a much higher impact. No one pushes him for top tier due to his inconsitency. Top tier has a hard cut off.

I mean, you're not addressing the argument presented, I was showcasing his capabilities against spin bowling, you went on a tangent here but I'll bite.

Root in India
Innings – 30
Runs – 1272
100s – 3
50s – 6
Avg – 45.43
match winning performance – Yes.

considering the bowling he has faced, Root has an insane record in India, as well as contributing to one of the four indian losses at home in last 10 years, and frankly being singlehandedly responsibile for another, the reason for low centuries can also be explained by bowling overload. If anything, based on his achievements in India, he is one of the greatest touring players to India ever.

Root in Newzealand
Innings – 16
Runs – 788
100s – 2
50s – 4
Avg – 52.53

again, he played an ATG inning in Newzealand as well as almost singlehandedly winning a game too, lost by a single run, no problems here either, if anything, The Record in Newzealand considering how easily the early swing blew away English top orders is pretty amazing.

Root in South Africa
Innings – 15
Runs – 703
100s – 1
50s – 6
Avg – 50.2

now this is where you can maybe make a case that Root has spammed 50s but not really 100s, but he was constantly facing ATG attacks, and his 100 was a series deciding one and he was nightly consistent in the 2016 tour...like yeah, maybe he should've a one more hundred here but the record isn't bad and the consistency deserves respect, though, he hasn't really went here in his prime.

Root in Australia
Innings – 27
Runs – 892
100s – 0
50s – 9
Avg – 35.68

This is the one and only flaw in Root's record, period. I'm not going to defend this, just say that this is the record that makes me not rate him as a Lara/Tendulkar level batsmen...though, I'll be honest with you here, keeping it a buck.

I feel like you're trying to convince yourself of something by mixing up Australia in his away numbers to other countries as well, like you're making this line "Root has 5-6 tons in around 90 attempts in Aus/SA/Ind/NZ. That's just very low frequency of going big agasint top sides."

more or less your motto, but what you're not telling people is that he has had iconic performances in NZ and India, match winning ones in latter, has been heads and shoulders above any touring batsmen bar Steve smith in his generation, has a series winning knock in SA and has been very consistent etc, if you take aus out, that 5-6 tons in over 90 attempts becomes 6 tons in 61 innings with 2 double tons.

but you don't say the above because I believe you're kind of...agenda debating? so you add in Aus, and thus now 6 in 61 which doesn't sound bad sounds like 6 in 90 and thus it's horrible, it's like if someone averages 70 in England and Newzealand but 20 in india and SL, you mash things up and say "he averages 35 in Eng/NZ/Ind/SL" rather than making the honest assessment of him being brilliant in three out of the four countries.

honestly? it's just a dishonest assessment.

and now, I swear to whatever god there is, in name of all that is holy, that you're not unironically implying that the likes of Kevin Pietersen are compareable to Joe Root in any concievable metric, if you do, then you may as well come out and say you despise Root.

 

[Buffet]

and now, I swear to whatever god there is, in name of all that is holy, that you're not unironically implying that the likes of Kevin Pietersen are compareable to Joe Root in any concievable metric, if you do, then you may as well come out and say you despise Root.

KP example was to show that top tier contenders get scrutinized for many factors.

 

[JaDed]

Ponting is the new guy of Indian fans because anything to downplay the success of Root.

Lol you mean Root is the new messiah of Pakistani fans?

 

[atreus]

KP example was to show that top tier contenders get scrutinized for many factors.

I accept the scrutiny over his Australia record is fine, my problem is the extention of the record to the other countries, apologies, I did not mean to come off as disrespectful.

 

[kron]

also, just for Root's spin play, Root's numbers against leading spinners

Ravichandran Ashwin (the stats are same in India as well)
Balls – 719 (almost 120 overs)
Runs – 437
Avg – 62.4

Ravindra Jadeja
Balls – 1142 (almost 190 overs)
Runs – 499
Avg – 62.4, but 38.2 in India, but that isn't bad considering Jadeja is ATG at home.

Kuldeep Yadav
Runs – 55
Balls – 143 (22 overs)
Avg – 55

Nathan Lyon
runs – 439
Balls – 841 (140 overs)
Avg – 54.9

Yasir Shah (Root only faced Pre-Aus Yasir)
Runs – 263
Balls – 425 (almost 70 overs)
Avg – 52.6

Keshav Maharaj
Runs – 212
Balls – 316 (52 overs)
avg – 106

add in with some of his ATG knocks in India like 219 and 122 which came on turners where the medicore English spinners were effective/lethal, and include his overall record in india regardless of context and you get why he is rated highly, the single handed obliteration of Sri Lanka on proper turners don't even need mentions

Chennai was not a turner. It was as flat

But yes root is way better vs spin.

 

[kron]

Yes, he had but he was third best test batsman for majority of his career. You are saying that the last 4 years he has been undisuputed best so I want to see what he has done in the last 4 years when he was undisputed best. Did he rise to challnege, no, he did not.

Now this narrative that he is undisputed best in the last 4 years due to decline in Kohli and Smith is fine but he is not really dominating in the last 4 years as well. When you are competing for top tier you got to have periods like 5-7 years where you have some dominations. Where is that period for Root? Let's look at that period and then see what others did in the same period. Otherwise we are just trying to push simply a very good batsman in top tier without any dominating period where you stand out due to your performances.

I saw same narative with Anderson and seeing the same with Root. Best across eras consistently score tons or pick 5-fers in top opposition's den. Anderson and Root, both have failed in that. Root has like 90 attempts in Ind/Aus/SA/NZ and yet he has crossed 100 just 6 times. Same situation with Anderson with 5-fers. Both are fine players and great to watch, but both fall short for me from top tier.

Yes, Root has some more time so I am hoping he scores couple of tons in Aus. Not just one fluke ton, that's not I am looking for. Have a dominating series in Aus like Kohli had in Eng after struggling Eng. That will help Root for top tier discussions.

This scrutiny is for top tier discussion and there is no two way about it. All top tier candidates have that. I loved watching Root/Anderson both despite their shortcomings and both are very good player. I jsut don't think Anderson belong in the top tier and so far not seen enough from Root to put him in top tier.

I will give you example of one WI bowler. Walsh. Not many bring him up for discussion for real top tier and yet he was drastically better career than Anderson. So being clearly among the top tier has a tough cut off. Volume of runs/wickets does not make you cross that cut off.

Walsh was extremely underrated. Phenomenal bowler. He would be England's greatest bowler if he played for them

 

[atreus]

Chennai was not a turner. It was as flat.

But yes root is way better vs spin.

tho Chennai wasn't really flat, Root made it look flat but Bess, Leach and Ashwin were all very effective there.

 

[kron]

tho Chennai wasn't really flat, Root made it look flat but Bess, Leach and Ashwin were all very effective there.

It was extremely flat first 2 days
He made merry when it was flat.

But yes he is by far the best player vs spin in modern era.
Second

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Obviously, but that doesn't really change the fact that Ponting was rendered unimpressive by almost every great spinner he met while Root has been one of the greatest Batsmen on spin pitches, infact, by far the best one bar Steven Smith in last ten years.


a big problem of Ponting's career is that he was a bit like Waqar, when he came onto the scene I used to rate him as a very good player but nothing generational, he was like Kevin Pietersen or Michael Clarke at that point, he played some amazing innings but he was too on and off.

then you've 2002-2006 where he was perhaps the greatest batsmen I've ever seen, I'm sure the ultra flat pitches and the retirement of all the great bowlers helped him but he was genuinely the best batsmen in the world at that point, he was genuinely frightningly amazing and that peak was even superior to the peaks of Tendulkar, Lara and ofcourse, Root.

but then by 2007 he again fell off, and this time he was barely averaging 40, but the bigger problem was that he was kind of just...there? he didn't have many great years after that, he was just...constantly mediocre?

and the statistics would support my viewpoint on Ponting, for example

his first 52 tests (1995-2001) where he was an up and coming Batsmen, on and off repeatedly, he was averaging 44 which was good but obviously not compareable to someone like Root, he was like Kevin Pietersen more or less, he would play astoinishing knocks but not much in the way of consistency.

his next 57 tests (2002-2006), he was genuinely maybe the best Batsmen of the century bar Smith, an average of 72, he destroyed everyone everywhere, this peak is one of the greatest in cricketting history but it also happened to take place in the era where the pitches got ultra flat, and all the great bowlers had retired, so that I reckon plays a factor into why the prime was so absurd.

his next 59 tests (2007-2012), he was just kind of there...? his average was 40.1 even with many flat tracks, he didn't have one great year, he had some nice innings but let's be real, pitches were flat in this era, and the average of 40.1 just isn't good in that era.

compare this to Lara, or Sachin, or Kallis, who all had more than a decade of brilliance in their careers, while Ponting was kind of just a very good batsmen outside of a godly four year stretch, and the four year stretch convineantly happened when he was batting on complete highways...against no real remaining ATG bowlers...with no real trouble because Hayden and Langer used to tire out all the bowlers and take the shine off the ball...simply put, Ponting as a peak might be the best of all time like Waqar, but outside of that? from the perspective of an overall career, he deeply struggles against guys like Sachin, Lara, Kallis and also Root. Root has been the undisputed best batsmen in the world for 4 years now, as well as it being the hardest era to bat in since the second world war.

simply put, while Prime Ponting is certainly a superior Batsmen to current/prime Root, Ponting's case suffers against elite Batsmen when you take the whole career into account, that's why he wasn't really anywhere close to Lara or Tendulkar and even had arguments below Waugh and Border.

Overall career wise, Sachin~Lara>Root>Ponting>~Kallis>Sangakkara~Dravid.

(all my views are Test cricket, btw)

Ponting was a great player of spin. It's a popular myth that he didnt play spin well.
The only spinner he struggled against was Harbhajan . And Rangana Herath at the fag end of his career . His H2H against all other spinners was good to great.

1999 onwards (Min :1000 runs scored ) , there are only 2 batters who averaged higher than Ponting against spin specifically - Andy Flower and Jacques Kallis.

 

[mominsaigol]

Ponting was a great player of spin. It's a popular myth that he didnt play spin well.
The only spinner he struggled against was Harbhajan . And Rangana Herath at the fag end of his career . His H2H against all other spinners was good to great.

1999 onwards (Min :1000 runs scored ) , there are only 2 batters who averaged higher than Ponting against spin specifically - Andy Flower and Jacques Kallis.

Bro, I love you for your facts. Great poster

 

[Falconslions]

Root scored a hundred in Ranchi Test match this year. Did India rest any bowler?

 

[Buffet]

Root scored a hundred in Ranchi Test match this year. Did India rest any bowler?

Bumrah was rested.

 

[Mamoon]

Didn’t Joe Root score 3 centuries vs Bumrah in 5 Tests in 2021/22? I don’t think Bumrah resting can be used against him when he has shown that he is perfectly capable of dominating him.

 

[Buffet]

Didn’t Joe Root score 3 centuries vs Bumrah in 5 Tests in 2021/22? I don’t think Bumrah resting can be used against him when he has shown that he is perfectly capable of dominating him.

I don't think it should be held against Root, whoever India plays Root just needs to score. Whoever was bowling against Root in India/SA/Aus does not matter. Anyone rested or playing does not matter. Root has played 72 innings in India/Aus/SA and has 4 tons. We shouldn't be saying that 1 ton came when Bumrah was rested or some other ton came when some one else was rested. He has 4 tons in 72 attecmpts in three toughest venues and that's his record.

Now coming back to drawing inference from scoring runs at home. That's not logical. At home of bowlers vs in your home. Totally different thing.

Sehwag has many dominating knocks in india against the likes of Steyn and McGrath but not in their dens. Clearly, dominating in home conditions didn't matter much when it cames to scoring runs against great bowlers in their den. If you have done it in their den then you have done it in their den. If you have not then you have not.

It's clear that Root had no issue scoring heavily against the same Aus/Eng/SA bowlers in home conditions. Hardly means that he has ability to score heavily against them in away conditions. If he had the ability he would have gotten lot more tons in India/SA/Aus.

 

[Buffet]

It's clear that Root had no issue scoring heavily against the same Aus/Eng/SA bowlers in home conditions. Hardly means that he has ability to score heavily against them in away conditions.

When Bumrah, Steyn, Cummins or Johnson played

Root in Eng - 43 innings - Avg 54 - 8 tons
Root Away - 39 innings - avg 37 - 1 ton

Look at contrast - almost the same number of innings but output is vastly different. Not unique to Root, happens to most bastsmen.

Clearly, ability to handle great bowlers in familiar home conditions does not extrapolate to playing them well in away condition.

 

[atreus]

Joe Root's record against Bumrah
Home – 72.5
Away – 40.08

Joe Root's record against Rabada
Home – 42.1
Away – 48.9

Joe Root against Patrick Cummins
Home – 40.94
Away – 38.37

Joe Root against Dale Steyn
Home – ...
Away – 48.5

tho I won't say including Johnson is really fair as he faced prime Johnson as a 22 year old back at the start of his career and thus reasonably had a horror series against him, he was a mid 30s Batsmen at the time.

but regardless, as Mamoon said

Didn’t Joe Root score 3 centuries vs Bumrah in 5 Tests in 2021/22? I don’t think Bumrah resting can be used against him when he has shown that he is perfectly capable of dominating him.

this was achieved in actual pace bowling conditions and should not be hand waved, it's conventional wisdom that pace bowlers are more lethal in England than they're in India, in India Root also has to counteract two more ATG bowlers and that's where he gets caught, Bumrah by himself with Shami and Siraj as support isn't much of a threat.

and again, I already displayed that he has 6 tons in 61 innings in ind/SA/Aus with amazing performances in all three as well as the match winning work in India while playing as an all rounder, one of his best hundreds at wanderers and a PERFORMANCE against Newzealand, The constant inclusion of Australia with no intention other than to spam the tagline of 6 hundreds in 90 innings.

it's like if I say Ponting averages 38 in Ind/Eng/SA to say he is meh as a Batsmen while ignoring his legacy in South Africa and that the stats ar elow because of India.

You should always look at things by a country by country basis, rather than the way they're being looked at, Virat Kohli averages 43 in SENA, one would think he was like a Damian Martyn level Batsmen in those countries but no, he is the greatest ever in South Africa, he was amazing in Australia, he was weak in England but still had an ATG tour, context matters, like I said if someone averages 70 in England and 10 in India you can just say "he averages 40 in those countries" but that doesn't tell you the reality that he was amazing in England and weak in India.

kinda feel like a broken record at this point.

 

[Ab Fan]

Root has couple of weaknesses in his CV:-

1. Performance in Australia
2. Performance away from home vs top class bowling attacks( not top class teams but when they have top class attacks)

I think these weaknesses put Root down as a test batter especially because Kallis and Dravid were better test batters away from home. However, he is similar to Ponting and Sangakkara in that regards perhaps slightly below due to failures in Australia.

 

[atreus]

Root has couple of weaknesses in his CV:-

1. Performance in Australia
2. Performance away from home vs top class bowling attacks( not top class teams but when they have top class attacks)

I think these weaknesses put Root down as a test batter especially because Kallis and Dravid were better test batters away from home. However, he is similar to Ponting and Sangakkara in that regards perhaps slightly below due to failures in Australia.

Won't personally say that, he is the only Batsmen in India bar Smith who has match winning knocks in 10 years (Pope too technically but c'mon), averages like 50 when he isn't overbowling but Ponting never really faced an attack as good as current India, seeing how he did in 2000s... he'd probably average 15 now.

he averaged 55 against Peak Rabada/late Steyn in the 2015 series, and he has been prolific in New Zealand.

his only real flaw is Australia imo, and let's be real, Dravid himself was terrible in Australia whenever McGrath or Warne were around, Dravid has 3 tons in 75 ganes in Aus/SA/Sl, averages 29 in SA and 33 in SL, his average is 41 in Aus and even that because McGrath and Warne missed one series and the pitches were ultra flat.

Root is definitely > Dravid, even by the buffet logic, being flawed in 3 countries is worse than being flawed in one.

 

[kron]

Wasim
Waqar
Steyn
Ambrose
Walsh
Donald
Muralu
Asif
Shoaib
Anderson
Broad
Harmisson
Harbajhan
Zaheer
Pollock

The list could go on

Oh ok achha

Bumrah
Steyn
Rabada
Phil trundler
Morkel
Nortje
Ngidi
Shami
Hazlewood
Starc
Cummins
Jamieson
Boult
Southee
Wagner
Jadeja
Ashwin
Nathan Lyon
Zak khan
Herath

And more.

 

[Hitman]

Lol you mean Root is the new messiah of Pakistani fans?

LOL, still remember how Pakistani fans on PP were salivating at the idea of Ponting ending with more Test runs and more Test centuries than SRT in 2007. A certain poster with the ID of Farhad was screaming his lungs out how Ponting will end his career with a career average of more than 60. Such a shame that average ended at 51.85

The same poster was boasting how someone from Wisden once claimed that his beloved hero Imran Khan would end up as the captain when Wisden finally names it's All Time XI. Guess what? Forget about being the captain, his hero couldn't even find a place in Wisden's All Time XI ​

 

[mominsaigol]

LOL, still remember how Pakistani fans on PP were salivating at the idea of Ponting ending with more Test runs and more Test centuries than SRT in 2007. A certain poster with the ID of Farhad was screaming his lungs out how Ponting will end his career with a career average of more than 60. Such a shame that average ended at 51.85

The same poster was boasting how someone from Wisden once claimed that his beloved hero Imran Khan would end up as the captain when Wisden finally names it's All Time XI. Guess what? Forget about being the captain, his hero couldn't even find a place in Wisden's All Time XI ​

I can understand the pointing vs Sachin argument in terms of who's better.

Who on earth claimed more rums amd more centuries? That ain't possible due to eras and no of games Sachin played, granted even if pointing played the same no, he'd have to score 1 in 3 to equal so unlikely he'd get their

 

[Hitman]

I can understand the pointing vs Sachin argument in terms of who's better.

Who on earth claimed more rums amd more centuries? That ain't possible due to eras and no of games Sachin played, granted even if pointing played the same no, he'd have to score 1 in 3 to equal so unlikely he'd get their

I was speaking of posters who got excited in 2006/07. Quite a lot of Dravid fans in India got excited as well.

 

[mominsaigol]

I was speaking of posters who got excited in 2006/07. Quite a lot of Dravid fans in India got excited as well.

Honestly I'm suprised posters even back then would argue this.

In 2006/2007 I highly doubt anyone would consider Pointing > Sachin in that era. By that point it was clear who was better.

I have seem some very very old forumns and some very old Internet threads from 2000-2003 that compared the 2.

2007 Sachin is superior to any era pointing and I'm saying this as a huge huge pointing fan .

peak pointing vs early 2000's Sachin is more debatable.

 

[Hitman]

Honestly I'm suprised posters even back then would argue this.

In 2006/2007 I highly doubt anyone would consider Pointing > Sachin in that era. By that point it was clear who was better.

I have seem some very very old forumns and some very old Internet threads from 2000-2003 that compared the 2.

2007 Sachin is superior to any era pointing and I'm saying this as a huge huge pointing fan .

peak pointing vs early 2000's Sachin is more debatable.

In 2006, Sachin was going through the worst time of his career riddled with injuries and bad form, while Ponting was going through the best time of his career. Ponting's career average touched almost 60 by the end of 2006. The man appeared almost superhuman back then, and even the biggest fan of Sachin Tendulkar appeared convinced that he would end up with most Test runs and centuries by the end of his career. The guy was scoring 1 century every Test match.​

 

[kron]

Honestly I'm suprised posters even back then would argue this.

In 2006/2007 I highly doubt anyone would consider Pointing > Sachin in that era. By that point it was clear who was better.

I have seem some very very old forumns and some very old Internet threads from 2000-2003 that compared the 2.

2007 Sachin is superior to any era pointing and I'm saying this as a huge huge pointing fan .

peak pointing vs early 2000's Sachin is more debatable.

But so what really? So what if root gets more runs. No shame in that? I don't know why fans are going mad over this. Who cares. Impact matters more. Performance in pressure situation matters more. Who helped his team win more.

 

[Ab Fan]

But so what really? So what if root gets more runs. No shame in that? I don't know why fans are going mad over this. Who cares. Impact matters more. Performance in pressure situation matters more. Who helped his team win more.

Ponting is the worst batsman of all in my opinion. Absolutely pathetic home track bully, can only dream of performing away from home like Hashim Amla has done.

 

[Ab Fan]

@kron , yes if a South African batsman averaged 26 in India or an Indian batsman averaged 26 in Australia, he won't have been rated a great. Kallis plays his home games in tough South African conditions and averages higher than Ponting, yet he is rated lesser than Ponting for some absurd reasons. Nobody enjoyed the benefits of a strong top order more than Ponting himself.

Tell me one ATG batsman who averages below 30 in any country? None except Ponting who also averages 43 only in England. When McGrath and Warne retired, Graeme Smith and co stamped their authority in Australia and all Ponting could do is cry watching youngsters like Steyn, de Villiers and duminy snatch a test series from Australia in their backyard. He already lost inaugral T20 World Cup a year ago vs India when Yuvraj demolished Brett Lee in stand and his struggle vs Ishant Sharma in the test series was just a cherry on top.

He has always been a good flat track bully who likes to play pull shot well but could barely succeed vs Bhajji. He was lucky he played for Australia who put a lot of pressure on Murali otherwise Murali in his full fledged actual avatar would have made Ponting his total bunny.

 

[Buffet]

@kron , yes if a South African batsman averaged 26 in India or an Indian batsman averaged 26 in Australia, he won't have been rated a great. Kallis plays his home games in tough South African conditions and averages higher than Ponting, yet he is rated lesser than Ponting for some absurd reasons. Nobody enjoyed the benefits of a strong top order more than Ponting himself.

Tell me one ATG batsman who averages below 30 in any country? None except Ponting who also averages 43 only in England. When McGrath and Warne retired, Graeme Smith and co stamped their authority in Australia and all Ponting could do is cry watching youngsters like Steyn, de Villiers and duminy snatch a test series from Australia in their backyard. He already lost inaugral T20 World Cup a year ago vs India when Yuvraj demolished Brett Lee in stand and his struggle vs Ishant Sharma in the test series was just a cherry on top.

He has always been a good flat track bully who likes to play pull shot well but could barely succeed vs Bhajji. He was lucky he played for Australia who put a lot of pressure on Murali otherwise Murali in his full fledged actual avatar would have made Ponting his total bunny.

Ponting averages 41 in Eng. I think you are being too harsh with one venue. Sure, it's shows an issue but we should consider over all record. Ponting was not hitting ball out of the park in India and even in Eng in test format but despite all that he has 5 tons in just those two venues.

Some fans rate Kallis just slightly inferior to SRT and Lara who played with him. Main reason is lack of attacking game compareds to those two. That's not taking account of his bowling, if you add his bowling, I think he should be equal if not surpass them.

Ponting is surely a bit over rated but not to the extent you are saying. I think most fans make mistake of crediting winning runs/tons to Ponting without realizing that he was playing with ATG team. As soon as that team got weaker, Ponting runs/tons were not effective the same way.

I personally give extra points for playing attacking game, yes even in test. I think batsmen having attack and defence both are better batsman and normally those are the ones play well in all formats. Case in point, SRT, Lara and Ponting were very good ODI batsmen and not just very good test batsmen. We have many examples of batsmen who could some how play well in Test but not really that good in ODI format and that comes due to their limitations when attacking. Each generation had such batsmen who can do well in one but not really great in another and they always gets rated below batsmen who could play well in both formats.

 

[Buffet]

@Ab Fan

To add some more,

If you can bat well in all conditions , both formats and have attacking game as well then you are simply one of the best batsman in history. Same goes for bowlers. But that yardstick will leave you with only the likes of SRT, Lara, McGrath, Bumrah, Wasim, Kohli etc. But if we relax it a bit then we do get players like Ponting, Kallis, Steyn, Amla, Warne, Murali etc. Then if we go lower to see just one format greats who were simply not good in other formats then we get some more names and so on...

So Ponting will still belong close to top despite his shortcomings in India due to being good in both formats. We have not seen too many batsmen like Ponting who could turn it on in both formats. Yes, he had problems in India, specially against Harbhajan, but if you start making a list of batsmen with decent cut off for Test and ODI both then you will see that not many will come above Ponting.

Just take current batsmen, only Kohli may make a case to be better or in the same league of Ponting. Root/Smith will come nowhere near due to their limitations in shorter formats. You can start scanning every 10 year periods and you can't come up with too many names who were very good in both formats. I know this is test comparison thread and your comments are for the test format, but aggresive batsmen with similar output gets some extra points by fans because attacking opposition bowlers puts them off and help your team. If you recall Johnson was in red hot form and then Kohli scored 4 tons in the same series against hot Johnson in Aus. He simply kept pulling and hooking Johnson. No one from Eng took him on in previous series and he simply ran over Eng. English bastmen were simply running away. So even if average is same, you got to take batsmen who can attack and not just grind to get decent average. Many others may have same avearge as Kohli, but if average came duer to just grinding then they go lower for me.

 

[kron]

@kron , yes if a South African batsman averaged 26 in India or an Indian batsman averaged 26 in Australia, he won't have been rated a great. Kallis plays his home games in tough South African conditions and averages higher than Ponting, yet he is rated lesser than Ponting for some absurd reasons. Nobody enjoyed the benefits of a strong top order more than Ponting himself.

Tell me one ATG batsman who averages below 30 in any country? None except Ponting who also averages 43 only in England. When McGrath and Warne retired, Graeme Smith and co stamped their authority in Australia and all Ponting could do is cry watching youngsters like Steyn, de Villiers and duminy snatch a test series from Australia in their backyard. He already lost inaugral T20 World Cup a year ago vs India when Yuvraj demolished Brett Lee in stand and his struggle vs Ishant Sharma in the test series was just a cherry on top.

He has always been a good flat track bully who likes to play pull shot well but could barely succeed vs Bhajji. He was lucky he played for Australia who put a lot of pressure on Murali otherwise Murali in his full fledged actual avatar would have made Ponting his total bunny.

I understand but it's one country though right. He still did well in other parts of Asia. Granted india is the toughest by far. By that metric root also is poor in Australia. Not as poor though as punter vs spin in India.

 

[sweep_shot]

Root has surpassed both Ponting and Sanga.

Root is less than 3300 runs away from surpassing Tendulkar. He is in a different league now.

 

[Buffet]

I understand but it's one country though right. He still did well in other parts of Asia. Granted india is the toughest by far. By that metric root also is poor in Australia. Not as poor though as punter vs spin in India.

If I recall it was mostly Harbhajan. Some how Ponting just lost it as soon as Harbhajan came to bowl. Still he scored one ton in India when Harbhajan played. Now just socring one ton does not make him a tick a box in India because for that you got to have one domianting series. He never did.

Same way if Root some how scores one ton in Aus it won't tick a box for me as some other posters are saying. You can score scratchy one single ton if you play long enough like Ponting did in India. This tick box check with average does not reconize if you had any single dominating series in that venue where you scored big.

Case in point, Kohli struggled big time in Eng and then in next go he scored near 600 runs against Anderson and Broad in their peak. Now some one will take 35 average and one one scratchy ton in Eng for some player and then tick a box to say it's same thing. I don't think that proves you can bat well there against good bowlers in their dens. You got to have some heavy scoring or consistent scoring across many series in tough series,

That's why I am more critical towards Root. You can tick boxes but unless you get few dominating series in den of top 2-3 oppositions or some consistent big scores across many series , it's just volume and not quality. I would want him to have a 2-3 dominating series in place like Aus or India or SA. People forget easily but Kohli had a ton and another close to ton in same test against Steyn and Co were in top form in SA. So Kohli had dominating series in Eng, SA and Aus... all three. I think that shows caliber a lot more than just some how get one ton without ever having a dominating series or heavy scoring across series.

Think this way, if you are making an ATG XI to play against tough oppositions you are likely to select players who had track record of scoring in tough series. You won't really select players who just to tick box without showing ability to go big.

Yes, volume of runs is tough and some one raised the point in thsi theard or some other thread, but we forget that SA plays a lot less tests than Eng. If Volume is the main criterion then we will have likes of Anderson and Root. In future also we will get more of Eng players because they play lots of tests. I don't think that's a good cut off for greatness. Greatness is -- do you play well in tough series, do you help your team win tough series and all that for me. Yes, they need to have large enough sample size to judge. Yes, they should also have good over all home record, but great home records are dime and dozen and does not define greatness. That is just minimum criterion for any gun player.

 

[Buffet]

Root has surpassed both Ponting and Sanga.

Root is less than 3300 runs away from surpassing Tendulkar. He is in a different league now.

Volume of runs yes, we all know that. Just like Anderson has passed all pacers in volume of wickets.

That hardly tells anything about surpassing them as batsman.

 

[kron]

@kron , yes if a South African batsman averaged 26 in India or an Indian batsman averaged 26 in Australia, he won't have been rated a great. Kallis plays his home games in tough South African conditions and averages higher than Ponting, yet he is rated lesser than Ponting for some absurd reasons. Nobody enjoyed the benefits of a strong top order more than Ponting himself.

Tell me one ATG batsman who averages below 30 in any country? None except Ponting who also averages 43 only in England. When McGrath and Warne retired, Graeme Smith and co stamped their authority in Australia and all Ponting could do is cry watching youngsters like Steyn, de Villiers and duminy snatch a test series from Australia in their backyard. He already lost inaugral T20 World Cup a year ago vs India when Yuvraj demolished Brett Lee in stand and his struggle vs Ishant Sharma in the test series was just a cherry on top.

He has always been a good flat track bully who likes to play pull shot well but could barely succeed vs Bhajji. He was lucky he played for Australia who put a lot of pressure on Murali otherwise Murali in his full fledged actual avatar would have made Ponting his total bunny.

And also tbf bhaji chucked alot.

 

[kron]

A

Volume of runs yes, we all know that. Just like Anderson has passed all pacers in volume of wickets.

That hardly tells anything about surpassing them as batsman.

Anderson. Averaged like 21 or 22 last 10 years no?

Does that count for something ? Still averages 30 in India amd 30 plus in au.

Not good enough.

 

[atreus]

Root>Ponting against any form of movement, by pacer or spinner, the gap in swing playing abilities and spin is huge especially, They are close against seam though but Root absolutely clears in batsmenship against swing and spin.

Ponting>Root on flat pitches and against Bounce.

overall – Root gets the nod, better against most forms of bowling and still has a chance to prove himself against bounce in Australia.

 

[Buffet]

A

Anderson. Averaged like 21 or 22 last 10 years no?

Does that count for something ? Still averages 30 in India amd 30 plus in au.

Not good enough.

It surely counts. I rate him just below top tier due to his last 10 years.

Having said that, even in his best phase he just fell short, I meant you couldn't rely on him to run through good batting sides when playing away. He has like 4-5 5-fers and 2 of them came against WI.

Wonderful bowler to watch in swinging conditions though and he did learn how to use old ball for reverse in later years. One of the top test bowlers of his era.

 

[Ab Fan]

And also tbf bhaji chucked alot.

Rest of the Australians did well against same Bhajji and kumble. It’s just an excuse. Ponting is very overrated flat track bully who enjoyed facing true bounce and pace but was weak vs spin and swing. Lucky to play in a strong team.

And also tbf bhaji chucked alot.

 

[kron]

Rest of the Australians did well against same Bhajji and kumble. It’s just an excuse. Ponting is very overrated flat track bully who enjoyed facing true bounce and pace but was weak vs spin and swing. Lucky to play in a strong team.

True.

But you got to admire his ability to play pace and bounce though. No one does it better vs pace and bounce.

Always wondered though. Imagine Tendulkar with the bowlers like bumrah shami bhuvi at his best ishant etc all playing at their best. Would have wreaked havoc.

 

[Ab Fan]

True.

But you got to admire his ability to play pace and bounce though. No one does it better vs pace and bounce.

Always wondered though. Imagine Tendulkar with the bowlers like bumrah shami bhuvi at his best ishant etc all playing at their best. Would have wreaked havoc.

Nothing to admire just an overrated Australian batsman who is hyped due to playing alongside McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and Hayden.

 

[atreus]

Rest of the Australians did well against same Bhajji and kumble. It’s just an excuse. Ponting is very overrated flat track bully who enjoyed facing true bounce and pace but was weak vs spin and swing. Lucky to play in a strong team.

tbh I think you're being very rough on the man, he had flaws against spin and swing but I won't say his problem against spin was exponentially bigger than Root's against bounce, one of the Printer knocks was in the 2000 series against Murali on a proper rank turner in Sri Lanka where he scored 96, he also had a wonderful 127 on a Green Mamba in England and has some nice knocks here too, he just had no consistency against movement while was an amazing player of Bounce which made his movement play look better than it actually was.

 

[mominsaigol]

Nothing to admire just an overrated Australian batsman who is hyped due to playing alongside McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and Hayden.

Hilarious, joke of the century comment.

 

[Ab Fan]

Hilarious, joke of the century comment.

No, can't take that tag away from the deserving candidate here.

 

[Ab Fan]

Nothing to admire just an overrated Australian batsman who is hyped due to playing alongside McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and Hayden.

Steve Waugh as well

 

[mominsaigol]

No, can't take that tag away from the deserving candidate here.

Calling Pointing overrated is a joke comment 100%.

In certain time periods he was performing much better then Tendulkar was, it just he fizzled out very quickly post 2007.

The only blemish he has is his test record in India which isn't a big deal as Tendulkar failed in 8 out of 9 tests in pakistan and has a massive inflated average as well, to top it off I've seen Tendulkar go missing in key moments in tournaments.

He'll top score here and their, have the top charts but he's lost games with certain style of batting especially at the back end of his career where excluding pak, anytime he scored in wc it resulted in a tie or loss, Happened in 2012 against Bangladesh as well cause he didn't give a crao about the rr.

He also played a really silly shot for a final which Indian fans claim he had no choice due to scoreboard which is a stupid argument considering all he had to do was back sehwag and go at a similar pace.

Sachin > Pointing but he is no where near as good as Indians have hyped him which I'm not auprised as this is the same nation that tried to cover up his ball tampering nonsense.

Pointing is the best batter since bradman to come for Australia. He's a gun player and calling him overrated is hilarious.

If he was Indian people would be calling him the greatest of all time since winning 3 world cups + wc 140 + Good record in batting beats sachin's filtered record which only includes batting but ignores his awful captaincy record where he turned India into a minnow and his ball tampering nonsense and other such drama.

But unfortunately Pointing is Australian so Indians will find a way to downplay him

 

[Ab Fan]

Calling Pointing overrated is a joke comment 100%.

In certain time periods he was performing much better then Tendulkar was, it just he fizzled out very quickly post 2007.

The only blemish he has is his test record in India which isn't a big deal as Tendulkar failed in 8 out of 9 tests in pakistan and has a massive inflated average as well, to top it off I've seen Tendulkar go missing in key moments in tournaments.

He'll top score here and their, have the top charts but he's lost games with certain style of batting especially at the back end of his career where excluding pak, anytime he scored in wc it resulted in a tie or loss, Happened in 2012 against Bangladesh as well cause he didn't give a crao about the rr.

He also played a really silly shot for a final which Indian fans claim he had no choice due to scoreboard which is a stupid argument considering all he had to do was back sehwag and go at a similar pace.

Sachin > Pointing but he is no where near as good as Indians have hyped him which I'm not auprised as this is the same nation that tried to cover up his ball tampering nonsense.

Pointing is the best batter since bradman to come for Australia. He's a gun player and calling him overrated is hilarious.

If he was Indian people would be calling him the greatest of all time since winning 3 world cups + wc 140 + Good record in batting beats sachin's filtered record which only includes batting but ignores his awful captaincy record where he turned India into a minnow and his ball tampering nonsense and other such drama.

But unfortunately Pointing is Australian so Indians will find a way to downplay him

The thread is about Ponting vs Root vs Sangakkara. You need to understand that you have more things in life to explore other than Tendulkar so we can discuss about Ponting without mentioning Tendulkar and Indians.

Why is Ponting’s record poor in India(26) and England(41)? Explain.

 

[mominsaigol]

The thread is about Ponting vs Root vs Sangakkara. You need to understand that you have more things in life to explore other than Tendulkar so we can discuss about Ponting without mentioning Tendulkar and Indians.

Why is Ponting’s record poor in India(26) and England(41)? Explain.

Yet you lot feel the need the consistently discredit other players and bring Tendulkar in every thread.

Him having a poor record in one country has no bearings on anything else.

It's one stain, it doesn't wipe away his achievements the biggest including that 140 bashing he gave to Indians in their own den in a final while the precious God of cricket could not and income the excuses of scoreboards or mchrath etc etc.

 

[Ab Fan]

Yet you lot feel the need the consistently discredit other players and bring Tendulkar in every thread.

Him having a poor record in one country has no bearings on anything else.

It's one stain, it doesn't wipe away his achievements the biggest including that 140 bashing he gave to Indians in their own den in a final while the precious God of cricket could not and income the excuses of scoreboards or mchrath etc etc.

Kindly stick to the thread rather than losing your consciousness and attacking Tendulkar and Indians in a thread where he has no business.

Why Ponting should be rated as Australian God after the poor record in India and average record in England? When McGrath and Warne played and Hayden opened the batting along with Langer, he was having fun but when the legends retired, Ponting became a 40 averaging batsman post 2008. He basically proved that he was a fair weather batsman, great in a great team and average in an average team.

As for the thread is concerned, if I say something bad about Root then also you will put the same accusation by bringing Tendulkar and Indians so either way you will accuse Tendulkar and Indians so I would suggest to stop losing your consciousness and let’s have a more worthy discussion assuming if you are capable of this.

 

[Ab Fan]

This thread is a comparison about Ponting, Root and Sangakkara. Let’s stick to the comparison between them, the strengths and weaknesses of these players rather than accusing Tendulkar in a thread where he has no business. I know it might be a tough job for some posters but if you try, you might succeed. If you want me to assist you in anyway possible, I am happy to do so.

 

[mominsaigol]

Kindly stick to the thread rather than losing your consciousness and attacking Tendulkar and Indians in a thread where he has no business.

Why Ponting should be rated as Australian God after the poor record in India and average record in England? When McGrath and Warne played and Hayden opened the batting along with Langer, he was having fun but when the legends retired, Ponting became a 40 averaging batsman post 2008. He basically proved that he was a fair weather batsman, great in a great team and average in an average team.

As for the thread is concerned, if I say something bad about Root then also you will put the same accusation by bringing Tendulkar and Indians so either way you will accuse Tendulkar and Indians so I would suggest to stop losing your consciousness and let’s have a more worthy discussion assuming if you are capable of this.

How does he have an average record in England? 41 avg back when ashes use to be extremely competitive?

And why are you ignoring his odi exploits and not brining those in discussion at all?

Does the world live in India? Is performance on an Indian surface the only criteria?

I have seen pointing bat. Harbajan was the only one he struggled against which explains his poor record, but who cares.

Harbajan is a chucker, it's very very clear that he is, but no action was taken against Mr full sleeves in the same way icc was forced to revert the decisons due to 1B mafia hating their hero getting the ball tampering mantra

 

[Ab Fan]

How does he have an average record in England? 41 avg back when ashes use to be extremely competitive?

And why are you ignoring his odi exploits and not brining those in discussion at all?

Does the world live in India? Is performance on an Indian surface the only criteria?

I have seen pointing bat. Harbajan was the only one he struggled against which explains his poor record, but who cares.

Harbajan is a chucker, it's very very clear that he is, but no action was taken against Mr full sleeves in the same way icc was forced to revert the decisons due to 1B mafia hating their hero getting the ball tampering mantra

An average of 41 in England when he hardly faced peak Anderson in England tells us about the quality of England attack. It was never great. Anderson is England’s greatest bowler since Bob Willis in 1980.

There is no excuse for Ponting’s embarrassing tailenderesque average of 03 in 2001, can you imagine a single elite player in the history of the game averaging 03 in a Test series away from home? Yes, it’s the great Ponting who did it. Same series in which Gilchrist hit a superb ton, Hayden hit a double ton and Steve Waugh also hit a clutch hundred. The only Aussie player to produce a tailenderesque series was your self owned God, Ponting.

A great player is the one who do not become a tailender when sent to alien conditions. Ponting became one and everyone knows the pitches of 2000s across the world. They were really batting friendly and assisting batters tremendously. Ponting didn’t achieved anything special away from home on his own in Test cricket. All his glory he owes to McGrath and Warne and his other teammates and when they left, he became an average player.

 

[mominsaigol]

An average of 41 in England when he hardly faced peak Anderson in England tells us about the quality of England attack. It was never great. Anderson is England’s greatest bowler since Bob Willis in 1980.

There is no excuse for Ponting’s embarrassing tailenderesque average of 03 in 2001, can you imagine a single elite player in the history of the game averaging 03 in a Test series away from home? Yes, it’s the great Ponting who did it. Same series in which Gilchrist hit a superb ton, Hayden hit a double ton and Steve Waugh also hit a clutch hundred. The only Aussie player to produce a tailenderesque series was your self owned God, Ponting.

A great player is the one who do not become a tailender when sent to alien conditions. Ponting became one and everyone knows the pitches of 2000s across the world. They were really batting friendly and assisting batters tremendously. Ponting didn’t achieved anything special away from home on his own in Test cricket. All his glory he owes to McGrath and Warne and his other teammates and when they left, he became an average player.

Would you like me to dig up Sachin 2006?

The reason I keep bringing in Sachin is because you lot ignore all his bad moments or ovetglorify it or hide behind a narrative or don't even bother addressing it saying things like well boss look at the thread. Like yeah sure, it's not like Indians haven't brought up India in a pak thread vs bangaldesh lol.

Every player throughout all his eras have had good moments and bad moments, If you nitpick like you're doing atm, Then no player will be good. Literally no one besides Bradman who doesn't even have footage available to analyse.

You need to learn to filter out the good and bad plain and simple. Pointing good's puts him leagues > any aussie batter besides bradman and steve smith during smith's golden years in TEST ONLY. in odi pointing is best ever all time for Australia.

You guys can't always be picky.

 

[Ab Fan]

Would you like me to dig up Sachin 2006?

The reason I keep bringing in Sachin is because you lot ignore all his bad moments or ovetglorify it or hide behind a narrative or don't even bother addressing it saying things like well boss look at the thread. Like yeah sure, it's not like Indians haven't brought up India in a pak thread vs bangaldesh lol.

Every player throughout all his eras have had good moments and bad moments, If you nitpick like you're doing atm, Then no player will be good. Literally no one besides Bradman who doesn't even have footage available to analyse.

You need to learn to filter out the good and bad plain and simple. Pointing good's puts him leagues > any aussie batter besides bradman and steve smith during smith's golden years in TEST ONLY. in odi pointing is best ever all time for Australia.

You guys can't always be picky.

As usual, you again bringing Tendulkar in it. I knew it is really tough for you to think of a life outside Tendulkar and India but nevertheless, I am here to help you out. Let’s assume there was no player that ever existed with a name, Tendulkar.

The best players during Ponting’s era were Lara, Kallis, Sangakkara and Dravid. Since Root is also part of this thread, let’s include him too. Do any of these players average below 30 in any country where he played multiple tours?

Do any of these players average a laughable tailenderesque average of 3.4 in a series where he got 5 attempts?

Do any of these players lose their form and became mediocre as soon as the legends of their team retired and the onus was on him to do the job?

I think we can safely focus on these players and proceed ahead on the discussion.

 

[mominsaigol]

As usual, you again bringing Tendulkar in it. I knew it is really tough for you to think of a life outside Tendulkar and India but nevertheless, I am here to help you out. Let’s assume there was no player that ever existed with a name, Tendulkar.

The best players during Ponting’s era were Lara, Kallis, Sangakkara and Dravid. Since Root is also part of this thread, let’s include him too. Do any of these players average below 30 in any country where he played multiple tours?

Do any of these players average a laughable tailenderesque average of 3.4 in a series where he got 5 attempts?

Do any of these players lose their form and became mediocre as soon as the legends of their team retired and the onus was on him to do the job?

I think we can safely focus on these players and proceed ahead on the discussion.

Do any of these players have a wc 100?

 

[Technics 1210]

Just checking if any new threads on Root were created in the last 24 hrs.


Nope looks like there wasn't.

 

[Ab Fan]

Do any of these players have a wc 100?

This is a test match thread. It clearly says, “in Tests”.

But hopefully the remedy is working. I didn’t encountered those two words

 

[mominsaigol]

This is a test match thread. It clearly says, “in Tests”.

But hopefully the remedy is working. I didn’t encountered those two words

You know who doesn't have a wc 100? He's an Indian opener.

Name begins with S

 

[Buffet]

The best players during Ponting’s era were Lara, Kallis, Sangakkara and Dravid. Since Root is also part of this thread, let’s include him too. Do any of these players average below 30 in any country where he played multiple tours?

Ponting actually was not that great against good home teams in general when playing away. You can give a very wide leeway to Ponting and include top 6 home homes teams during his career. I don't think going till top 6 is warranted, but that allows a very large sample size and enough chance to make up weak performance against Ind.





Ponting has 50 plus tests so really a huge sample size. Aus was also by far the best home team during his playing days with W/L of over 5 when second best was in 2.x. Ponting avoided facing the best home team as well.

And yet he avearges 40 collectively against the top 6 home sides when playing in their dens. It's not horrble. 40 is still good, but it's highlights the fact that Ponting was not that great against good home sides. He has 9 tons so not bad but it came in 50 plus tests. 1 ton every 10 innings.




That's why I just shake my head when anyone makes a case for Ponting coming ahead of Smith in all time Aus Test XI. Smith is comfortably ahead of Ponting in the test format and it's not even close. I had the same impression watching both of them live and data shows the same thing. Anyone rating Ponting ahead is getting influenced by how often Aus used to win those days.

I always find it puzzling the hate Kohli gets from some posters. He had 2 ATG away series in Aus and Eng. Couple more great away series in Aus and SA. Averages around 60 on tough pitches at home. Not to derail the thread but recency bias have made people forget how great his career has been.

Coming back to Ponting, I think he was a very good all format player, but just below the likes SRT, Lara and Kohli. Just in test, it's harder to rank because his dominating runs have come at home. A great player to watch in full flow, but had his own shortcomings.

 

[atreus]

Ponting's weakness as a batter is against Swing and Seam bowling as well as spinning, frankly any moving ball could trouble the man because he was very dependant on his hand eye coordination to smack away balls with his signature horizental shots, against the seaming ball he really wasn't great.

struggled with Gough, Morkel, Steyn, Anderson (when he became good), Broad, Philander, Bond, Vaas were all challenges for Ponting, some even in his prime, even a declining Pollock completely forced him to play an unnatural style, he was honestly worse against swing than Root against bounce.

 

[kron]

Nothing to admire just an overrated Australian batsman who is hyped due to playing alongside McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and Hayden.

If you put it that way then whole team is overrated barring mcgrath

Without mcgrath they were always very very beatable. This is a fact.

Mcgrath is the goat bowler.

Goat 11 team
My first pick. Mcgrath. Batting I can pick from a plethora of options. Only one mcgrath. I will build the team around him. I don't even need a spinner my goat 11. 4 pronged pace attack.

 

[kron]

Ponting's weakness as a batter is against Swing and Seam bowling as well as spinning, frankly any moving ball could trouble the man because he was very dependant on his hand eye coordination to smack away balls with his signature horizental shots, against the seaming ball he really wasn't great.

struggled with Gough, Morkel, Steyn, Anderson (when he became good), Broad, Philander, Bond, Vaas were all challenges for Ponting, some even in his prime, even a declining Pollock completely forced him to play an unnatural style, he was honestly worse against swing than Root against bounce.

Virat also sucks vs swing. And spin post 2019 ish.

But atleast virat had some good performances vs spin.

I think punter is better vs swing than veerattt

 

[Ab Fan]

Ponting actually was not that great against good home teams in general when playing away. You can give a very wide leeway to Ponting and include top 6 home homes teams during his career. I don't think going till top 6 is warranted, but that allows a very large sample size and enough chance to make up weak performance against Ind.

View attachment 146813



Ponting has 50 plus tests so really a huge sample size. Aus was also by far the best home team during his playing days with W/L of over 5 when second best was in 2.x. Ponting avoided facing the best home team as well.

And yet he avearges 40 collectively against the top 6 home sides when playing in their dens. It's not horrble. 40 is still good, but it's highlights the fact that Ponting was not that great against good home sides. He has 9 tons so not bad but it came in 50 plus tests. 1 ton every 10 innings.


View attachment 146814

That's why I just shake my head when anyone makes a case for Ponting coming ahead of Smith in all time Aus Test XI. Smith is comfortably ahead of Ponting in the test format and it's not even close. I had the same impression watching both of them live and data shows the same thing. Anyone rating Ponting ahead is getting influenced by how often Aus used to win those days.

I always find it puzzling the hate Kohli gets from some posters. He had 2 ATG away series in Aus and Eng. Couple more great away series in Aus and SA. Averages around 60 on tough pitches at home. Not to derail the thread but recency bias have made people forget how great his career has been.

Coming back to Ponting, I think he was a very good all format player, but just below the likes SRT, Lara and Kohli. Just in test, it's harder to rank because his dominating runs have come at home. A great player to watch in full flow, but had his own shortcomings.

An average of 40 against top 6 oppositions further strengthens my point.

Ponting is not just behind SRT, Lara but also behind Kallis and Dravid in Test cricket. Both Kohli and Root average more than 40 in SENA or SINA which means they have also done better than Ponting away from home vs major opponents. If you include Sri Lanka and Pakistan in that SENA, their average will go over 45.

The following players have done better away from home than Ponting since 1990:-

Steve Waugh
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Rahul Dravid
Steve Smith
Joe Root
Graeme Smith
Virat Kohli
Hashim Amla
AB de Villiers
Alastair Cook
Kumar Sangakkara
Shivanarine Chanderpaul
Younis khan

If you do not consider his ODI exploits,all the names above Graeme Smith can be easily rated better test batsman than Ponting.

 

[Ab Fan]

If you put it that way then whole team is overrated barring mcgrath

Without mcgrath they were always very very beatable. This is a fact.

Mcgrath is the goat bowler.

Goat 11 team
My first pick. Mcgrath. Batting I can pick from a plethora of options. Only one mcgrath. I will build the team around him. I don't even need a spinner my goat 11. 4 pronged pace attack.

That's not really true.

There is no replacement of Gilchrist and Warne in Test cricket either, they were invincible in their department. Warne did poor vs India but he was a beast in Australian conditions which is a graveyard for spinners. He also did well everywhere. Unlike Ponting, his home conditions were graveyard for spinners and him doing wonders there tells us about the quality of the player and ability to thrive in tough conditions.

In addition to it, Steve Waugh was very underrated cricketer and did really well away from home.