POTW: hk031992

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An excellent take on what constitutes talent is this weeks POTW - Congratulations to [MENTION=136172]hk031992[/MENTION]


http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...hy-do-people-think-we-have-an-abundance-of-it

What defines talent and why do people think we (Pakistan) have an abundance of it?

Seriously i do not understand this. Yes, we have produced some talented players. But there is no evidence that we have produced an extremely high number of talented players. Yet the myth of our endless domestic talent persists.

Take a look at Australia. Their population is around 25 million people. Ours is at least 7 times higher. In Aus, cricket is the second most popular team sport behind Aussie Rules or Rugby League depending on the state.

Yet despite their population being 7 times less than ours and cricket being #2 in team sports there, they have produced at least 5 world class opening batsmen in tests since 1990. Mark Taylor, Michael Slater, Justin Langer, Matthew Hayden and David Warner.

And what have we produced? Saeed Anwar is the only true world class opener we have produced in tests over the course of 32 years. Please do not mention Azhar Ali. A negative player like Ali isn't remotely in the league of a Langer or a Slater despite whatever stats he has.

So a country with 7 times smaller a population has produced 5 times as many great test opening batsmen in 32 years compared to us.

What about bowling? Since 1990, we have had ATG's in Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis with Shoaib Akhtar coming close. Ok that's 3 great bowlers.

Since 1990, Australia has had McGrath and Cummins, both of whom are ATG's or on their way.

The difference is the number of world class bowlers they have had during that time. They have produced so many very good quicks like Mitchell Johnson, Jason Gillespie, Ryan Harris, Craig McDermott, Josh Hazlewood, Bruce Reid, etc.

Please don't tell me we have produced as many quality quicks as them. Yes, we have had 3 great bowlers but we simply haven't produced nearly as many very good bowlers as they have.

Forget about Aus for a second. Take a small (5 million or so) country like New Zealand where cricket is a distant #2 behind rugby. A terrific fast bowler like Shane Bond is more talented than anyone we have produced since the 2 W's (and please don't compare Amir to Bond; Bond is miles ahead).

A country like England where cricket is only followed by some of the population has produced all rounders like Ben Stokes and Freddie Flintoff, who are both more "talented" than any Pakistani allrounder in the last 22 years.

Jimmy Anderson and Joe Root are both more talented than any Pakistani cricketer of the last 15 years at least.

I just don't understand. For all our "talent" which is seemingly endless, we have produced 4 great quicks (Imran, 2 W's and Akhtar) in our entire history and not a lot of world class quicks that are just a notch below (like Gillespie or Mitch).

We have produced one great off spinner (Saqlain), two very good leggies (Qadir and Yasir), 3-5 very good/great batsmen (Anwar, Miandad, Inzi, Yousuf, Younis and maybe Babar).

We have never procuced a genuinely quality wk batsmen like Gilchrist.

We have allowed players like Shahid Afridi and Younis Khan to play hundreds of ODI's each even though no other serious cricketing nation would have given either of those 2 more than a 100 ODI's each.

Where is all this magical "talent" coming from? I just don't get it. We have produced perhaps a couple of dozen high quality players despite essentially being a one sport nation (field hockey and squash are sports of the past for us sadly).

I just do not understand where this mythical talent exists. Shaeen Afridi and Babar seem like the only 2 genuinely talented players in the team.
 
Cold hard truth. Good post. But I do think most Pakistani fans have woken up to this reality compared to a few years back or earlier.
 
The reason why Pakistani fans believe that we have tremendous amounts of talent is because our entire cricket structure is so flawed and corrupt - the idea of finding diamonds in the rough. Our cricket system is filled with nepotism, bad pitches, terrible domestic cricket structure, etc. Every few years the chairman is changed when a new party comes into power, every time a new talented player fails at all the media is ready to call for their head and allow the old nepotist picks to rejoin the team.

The evidence of Pakistan's talent is that we have produced talent in spite of our system. Those other nations you listed, to their credit, have incredibly set up cricket structures and systems which squeeze the maximum performance out of the available cricket talent. To play for Pakistan, you do not only have to play against the opposite team. You must play against the corrupt cricket board and selection committee, the media, and all of the other drama that comes.
 
Great post!

Individuals tend to be highlighted when there's no mature professional structures and support systems in place. Even the non-talented can perform if they get the right training and support. In addition to your Australia example, also take a look at the Ice Hockey scene in Canada. A country with a very low population, is continuously dominating that game. And ice hockey is an expensive sport to take up and play so only a small percentage of that population plays it. Yet Canada produces talent year over year, they just won the World Juniors again.

Unfortunately in Pakistan, we're constantly chopping and changing things that we don't let any sort of institution develop beyond it's basic capabilities. If the PCB was a more mature and adept organization talent would've taken a backseat.
 
i disagree with the op.. as if fair comparisons are made .. you need to look at the domestic structure, the coaching, training that cricketers in england, australia are getting as opposed to pakistan. if pakistan produces a player of the caliber of asif, waseem, babar and miandad to name a few.. what coaching and domestic grounds did they receive as opposed to australians and englishman. We do not allocate tbe funds we receive from icc to the right areas like fixing our grounds, hiring qualified physicians or coaches etc. i have see school cricket grounds in england that are far better then the international level grounds in pakistan. there is no comparison of the opportunities and facilities that the cricketers in england and austrlia are receiving as opposed to pakistan.
 
Our players are very tailented but the problem is they do not put method into it, 90% of our players have zero growth they carry their limitations throughout the career unlike Australians who continuously improve
 
I’d add Fazal Mahmood to your list of great Pakistani pace bowlers, but overall agree with the message
 
Excellent post.

Although this part:

Take a look at Australia. Their population is around 25 million people. Ours is at least 7 times higher. In Aus, cricket is the second most popular team sport behind Aussie Rules or Rugby League depending on the state.

Yet despite their population being 7 times less than ours and cricket being #2 in team sports there, they have produced at least 5 world class opening batsmen in tests since 1990. Mark Taylor, Michael Slater, Justin Langer, Matthew Hayden and David Warner.

The moment an average Aus/NZ woman gets pregnant and until the day child is finally born (roughly 9 months): more money and resources are spent on a single baby's/fetus' healthcare than 100s of average malnutritioned/growth-stunted Pakistani children will ever spend (and their entire families' as well if we include the poor rural areas of Sindh and most Pakistan).

Do the math:

Sources for Aus childbirth: https://www.bupa.com.au/health-insu.../childbirth-by-caesarean-section-surgery-cost
Sources for Pak income (old data for Rural areas): https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/pslm/publications/hies10_11/tables/table11.pdf
-New Data: https://www.timedoctor.com/blog/average-salary-in-pakistan/

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Buddy, when the Aus / NZ child is born, he/she will spend more money (›3x) in diapers/pampers ( https://nestnappies.com.au/2017/11/...osts-of-nappies-cloth-nappies-vs-disposables/ ) than an average Pakistani household ( https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/pakistan/annual-household-income-per-capita ).

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I could go on and on. But data and facts are simply too depressing.

--

According to AI: https://you.com/search?q=who+are+you&fromSearchBar=true&tbm=youchat

Question: In Australia, how much money is spent on a child from the moment he is conceived and until he turns 18?

Answer: According to the Australian Institute of Family Studies, the average cost of raising a child in Australia from conception until the age of 18 is around $819,000. This includes the costs of things such as food, clothing, childcare, education, health care, and other living expenses. This figure is based on the cost of raising a child in a two-parent family in a major metropolitan area. The cost of raising a child in other parts of Australia may be lower or higher depending on the region and the family’s circumstances.

Question: In Pakistan, how much money is spent on a child from the moment he is conceived and until he turns 18?

Answer: According to a report by the International Food Policy Research Institute, the average cost of raising a child in Pakistan from conception until the age of 18 is around $7,500. This includes the costs of food, clothing, healthcare, education, and other living expenses. This figure is based on the cost of raising a child in a two-parent family in a rural area of Pakistan. The cost of raising a child in other parts of Pakistan may be lower or higher depending on the region and the family’s circumstances.


The miracle is how a poor and corrupt country like Pakistan still manages to produce decent cricketers. BD and SL have a better structure than us. India are light years ahead!
 
A good post. But I think the OP is confusing world class with talented. The players that have been named are all legends of the game, once in a generation talents. You cannot produce a bunch of those every year or even every decade. No country does. Talented does not mean world class. It should mean someone who has what it takes to forge an average or above average career at the international level. Based on that we aren't too badly placed. Also as others have rightly pointed success is not just a product of talent and skill but also about how talent is nurtured. And then it is also about mindset and work ethic (both on an individual and societal level). India, the largest cricketing nation produced very few world class players in the 80s and 90s. But look at them now. The difference is not that they have suddenly started producing super players, its just that they have invested in the system and ensured that the talent gets identified and developed.
 
congrats, but i think the poster has defined stardom as being great.
 
Pakistan actually have produced lot of talented cricketers. However a talent is nothing without hardwork, conviction and consistency, at the least it should avoid short cuts. The other common misconception that I see is that only Pakistanis have talent while others are simply lucky, this is very damaging not to acknowledge qualities in others as it reduces learning opportunities as well as limits competitive ness. This is somewhat true in India as well specifically in pockets where people are self centred and not really having much awareness of what happens outside their well.
 
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