PPP joins hands with PML-N to pass 24th amendment to Constitution

[WebGuru]

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Peoples Party will be lending a helping hand to the ruling Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz in passing an amendment to the Constitution which would provide the Sharif family a legal option to go for a review in case an adverse verdict is delivered in the Panama leaks case.
“It has been brought due to political expediency, but we would still support it since it was our longstanding demand,” Senator Farhatullah Babar told The Express Tribune.

Imran Khan’s PTI is opposing the move, but his party’s opposition may not block it given the overwhelming majority the PML-N enjoys in the National Assembly and the decisive support the ruling party has managed to gain from the PPP. The federal government had introduced the Constitution (24th Amendment) Bill-2016 in the National Assembly on November 18, proposing a right to appeal against an order of the Supreme Court passed in suo motu cases.

Currently, the only remedy available to aggrieved persons under this jurisdiction of the apex court is a review petition, and that, too, is heard by the same bench that had earlier passed the order.

The bill suggests adding two new clauses – 184(4) and 184(5) – to Article 184 (Original jurisdiction of Supreme Court) of the Constitution. A larger bench of the Supreme Court is currently hearing the Panamagate case under the said jurisdiction, i.e., Article 184.

“One thing is clear: that the government’s motive behind the move is not based on principles, but political in nature,” Babar observed, adding, “The PPP was well aware of it.” The PPP senator said the timing of introducing such a crucial constitutional amendment was not appropriate, and it had been brought to parliament at a time when the Supreme Court was hearing a case against the Sharif family under the same jurisdiction.

“Despite our reservations – primarily due to the timing of this amendment – the PPP will support it,” Babar said.

The proposed Clause 184(4) says, “Any person aggrieved by an order passed by the Supreme Court under Clause 3 may, within 30 days of the passing of such order, prefer an appeal to the Supreme Court.”

While, the proposed Clause 184(5) suggests, “An appeal preferred under [proposed] Clause (4) shall be heard by a bench larger than the bench which had passed the order under appeal.”

The government will be requiring a two-thirds majority in the National Assembly to get the bill passed from the lower house of parliament.

PTI’s stance

Apparently, following its traditional politics – opposition for the sake of opposition – the PTI on Thursday said the amendment was aimed at “de-shaping the constitution in a bid to save an individual [the prime minister]”, saying the party would not support the amendment introduced by the government in a controversial manner.

Talking to The Express Tribune, PTI’s legal wizard Hamid Khan said he sees no harm in the said amendment, but the timing of its introduction was controversial and reflects the government’s mala fide intent.

“I personally endorse that there must be an appellant forum in cases decided under original jurisdiction of the Supreme Court,” Khan said, adding by introducing the bill, the government had signalled the apex court that it [government] would have another option available in case they [the SC] decide the Panamagate case against the Sharif family.

Khan recalled that Nawaz Sharif has an old habit of using such tactics to pressurise the Supreme Court by bringing favourable amendments. He said that when the court of Syed Sajjad Ali Shah had initiated contempt proceeding against the incumbent prime minister in 1998, the then contempt law was amended by the PML-N, which allowed the accused to challenge the charge sheet through filing an intra-court appeal.

“They [PML-N] introduce amendments to the constitution not on the basis of principle, but to safeguard their interests,” Hamid observed, adding when the PPP during its last regime had tried to get a similar amendment passed from parliament, the PML-N deliberately opposed it and now when they [PML-N] were under the scanner they had introduced it.

Hamid said the PTI’s opposition would not matter due to the PML-N’s numerical strength in parliament.



Source: http://tribune.com.pk/story/1243738/24th-amendment-pml-n-shores-ppps-crucial-support-na/

 

[Syed1]

Two sides of one coin

 

[Waseem]

Not surprising at all, these kind of steps really strengthen the democracy

Just curious though, how does this amendment save Nawaz from Panama? Is this some sort of immunity? Surely, Supreme court's decision cant be overridden by some parliament rule?

 

[Syed1]

Not surprising at all, these kind of steps really strengthen the democracy

Just curious though, how does this amendment save Nawaz from Panama? Is this some sort of immunity? Surely, Supreme court's decision cant be overridden by some parliament rule?

My understanding of law is limited but from what I have read and been explained is that when the SC decides to take suo moto action you cannot appeal the verdict (which to be far isn't the best of laws) and secondly in a case like this the appeal will have to be petitioned and would be heard by the same bench.

This law seeks to do away with the above regulations, so that when Noora inevitably gets convicted he can file an appeal and have his paid judges dismiss the conviction.

 

[Slog]

WOW!!

lets pull a PP nooras manouever and tag the defenders
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] , anyone else?

 

[Syed1]

WOW!!

lets pull a PP nooras manouever and tag the defenders
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] , anyone else?

You forgot @srh; and [MENTION=132752]endymion248[/MENTION]

 

[Syed1]

120 views and not one single post by a Noora supporter. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] ji where are you?


Lovely how karma has a weird way of coming back to bite you.

 

[godzilla]

absolute disgrace. this goes through in one day, but investigations into the vote fraud took three years? as someone above said, for all his showboating, zardari is exactly the same - if this isnt black and white proof of corruption and self interest, what is?

its entirely indefensible.

 

[Bewal Express]

AZ and NS are the same person, corrupt to the core and would sell the country without a moments thought.

 

[moghul]

PP and MKL-N has a common interest to defend each other's corruption, that's not surprising, the mind-boggling thing is that many people still support them and not all of them are Jahil, some went to schools.

 

[anakin]

Irrespective of the timing of it, I think the amendment is very much sane. Sometimes Judiciary can make mistakes. In India, when a review petition is rejected, we have the "Curative petition" which serves very much the same purpose as this amendment will do in Pakistan. This was something that Supreme Court of India introduced on its own to ensure more safeguards in ensuring justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curative_petition

 

[uberkoen]

WOW!!

lets pull a PP nooras manouever and tag the defenders
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] , anyone else?

120 views and not one single post by a Noora supporter. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] ji where are you?


Lovely how karma has a weird way of coming back to bite you.

PPP will obviously support PML-N on this issue or any other issue since they're both in the same bed.

However, this is a stupid law which makes absolutely no sense and hopefully will not be passed.

 

[Mamoon]

120 views and not one single post by a Noora supporter. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] ji where are you?


Lovely how karma has a weird way of coming back to bite you.

Sorry, been away for the last 3 days.

Anyhow, by repeatedly calling me a 'Noora' supporter along with others, you won't make me one. No Noora supporter would call Nawaz a 'fool' and acknowledge that the Panama charges are factual.

Nonetheless, this is was coming as far as PML-N is concerned. They will use any tactic to get out of this mess they have created for themselves thanks to Nawaz.

However, I am surprised to see this change of heart by PPP, considering they were reports that Baby Bhutto might join hands with Kaptaan to put PML-N on the backfoot, which was obviously ironic beyond measure considering the fact that Zardari is the most corrupt man in the country.

 

[Waseem]

So a hypothetical question especially to our friends who dislike Imran's politics (or those who just hate EVERYTHING he does/says). What if Supreme court disqualifies Nawaz Sharif which seems likely based on recent development (flat documents being sent from London) and it gets overturned due to this amendment, should Imran Khan just accept that this is how things work in Pakistan or protest again since it's quite clear that the amendment is being made in emergency simply to protect the king?

 

[WebGuru]

PPP will obviously support PML-N on this issue or any other issue since they're both in the same bed.

However, this is a stupid law which makes absolutely no sense and hopefully will not be passed.

They needed two thirds majority to pass this and they will get it with the support PPP and other allies so it's going to happen.

 

[Mamoon]

So a hypothetical question especially to our friends who dislike Imran's politics (or those who just hate EVERYTHING he does/says). What if Supreme court disqualifies Nawaz Sharif which seems likely based on recent development (flat documents being sent from London) and it gets overturned due to this amendment, should Imran Khan just accept that this is how things work in Pakistan or protest again since it's quite clear that the amendment is being made in emergency simply to protect the king?

Protest is never an issue, the way the protest is done is the problem. You are also not a fan of dharna politics and invading the capital.

 

[saeedhk]

Our constitution is being changed just to protect a single person. No hue and cry about it at all.

 

[Waseem]

Protest is never an issue, the way the protest is done is the problem. You are also not a fan of dharna politics and invading the capital.

I am definitely no fan of dharna but you have to admit Sharifs are proving Imran right with this shameless attitude. When no institution was taking any action, Imran had to go for ptotests and SC only took action when lockdown was announced. Now that some progress is made in the case, they are going for an amendment to save Sharif (PATHETIC AND SHAMEFUL IF IT HAPPENS).

First 3 times PM lies lies on tv address to the nation then he lies in the parliament, then he brings a FAKE Qatari letter and cook's up new stories every day and when nothing works he makes amendment with people he was supposed to be dragging on the roads (as per his brother).
If you compare all these issues including corruption, foriegn investment, tax evasion etc then Imran's way of protest seems EXTREMELY EXTREMELY minor issue. What is he supposed to do against this mafia?

 

[Mamoon]

I am definitely no fan of dharna but you have to admit Sharifs are proving Imran right with this shameless attitude. When no institution was taking any action, Imran had to go for ptotests and SC only took action when lockdown was announced. Now that some progress is made in the case, they are going for an amendment to save Sharif (PATHETIC AND SHAMEFUL IF IT HAPPENS).

First 3 times PM lies lies on tv address to the nation then he lies in the parliament, then he brings a FAKE Qatari letter and cook's up new stories every day and when nothing works he makes amendment with people he was supposed to be dragging on the roads (as per his brother).
If you compare all these issues including corruption, foriegn investment, tax evasion etc then Imran's way of protest seems EXTREMELY EXTREMELY minor issue. What is he supposed to do against this mafia?

The main problem here is that Imran has made this about himself. Look you will not agree, but the fact that Imran is extremely power hungry and will do whatever it takes to oust Nawaz and become the PM.

From licking boots of the Army to forming an alliance with TUQ to taking PML-Q lotas in his wing to ignoring PTI rigging and firing his own judiciary council when his friends got exposed, one can go on and on. Add to that, his refusal to raise these issues in the parliament and taking u-turns on u-turns makes him look like a clown.

I was with him as long as he made electoral reforms his number one priority, but he swayed away from it. What does he want to achieve with all these protests?

He doesn't believe in the judiciary unless the judiciary give a verdict in his favor, he doesn't believe in the NA. Why does he think he's above the law and constitution?

It's not about how big the issue his protests are compared to the corruption of PMLN/PPP, the question is, what will he achieve with it?

Suppose the SC accepts this amendment and Nawaz gets away with and Imran takes the streets again, what will happen? Will this go on and on as long as he's alive?

He wanted Gen. Raheel to impose martial law but Gen. Raheel believes in democracy. The next Chief may not, and we surely don't want military rule again, which has pegged Pakistan back throughout its history and have not allowed political institutions and democracy to develop.

Look, regardless of their corruption, PPP and PMLN were elected democratically and this new found democracy of Pakistan, which has survived for 8 years, must be allowed to progress. If it doesn't, Pakistan will continue to regress.

Imran should stop making castles in the air and stop being a threat to democracy. What if tomorrow, TUQ along with other Mullahs decides to rally against Imran's government and voices his desire to impose shariah law? What will happen then? He simply setting a wrong precedence.

These are the questions that cannot be answered. Topping governments and imposing martial law aren't the solutions. Our only long-term hope is for democracy to survive, it is the only way forward.

 

[shaz619]

Protest is never an issue, the way the protest is done is the problem. You are also not a fan of dharna politics and invading the capital.

But these have also been pivotal in the Resurrection of nations in the past, the only issue is people will have to make sacrifices for that change; it all depends on how much one loves Pakistan.

 

[anakin]

So a hypothetical question especially to our friends who dislike Imran's politics (or those who just hate EVERYTHING he does/says). What if Supreme court disqualifies Nawaz Sharif which seems likely based on recent development (flat documents being sent from London) and it gets overturned due to this amendment, should Imran Khan just accept that this is how things work in Pakistan or protest again since it's quite clear that the amendment is being made in emergency simply to protect the king?

Objectively, how does Sharif gets a way out if he is proven guilty because of this amendment?
People here are losing their mind . The amendment is meant to prevent a gross miscarriage of justice, which can happen even at the highest level of judiciary. Just because a corrupt person can avail it, doesn't make such a move against the concept of natural justice.

Irrespective of the timing of it, I think the amendment is very much sane. Sometimes Judiciary can make mistakes. In India, when a review petition is rejected, we have the "Curative petition" which serves very much the same purpose as this amendment will do in Pakistan. This was something that Supreme Court of India introduced on its own to ensure more safeguards in ensuring justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curative_petition

 

[Waseem]

The main problem here is that Imran has made this about himself. Look you will not agree, but the fact that Imran is extremely power hungry and will do whatever it takes to oust Nawaz and become the PM.

From licking boots of the Army to forming an alliance with TUQ to taking PML-Q lotas in his wing to ignoring PTI rigging and firing his own judiciary council when his friends got exposed, one can go on and on. Add to that, his refusal to raise these issues in the parliament and taking u-turns on u-turns makes him look like a clown.

I was with him as long as he made electoral reforms his number one priority, but he swayed away from it. What does he want to achieve with all these protests?

He doesn't believe in the judiciary unless the judiciary give a verdict in his favor, he doesn't believe in the NA. Why does he think he's above the law and constitution?

It's not about how big the issue his protests are compared to the corruption of PMLN/PPP, the question is, what will he achieve with it?

Suppose the SC accepts this amendment and Nawaz gets away with and Imran takes the streets again, what will happen? Will this go on and on as long as he's alive?

He wanted Gen. Raheel to impose martial law but Gen. Raheel believes in democracy. The next Chief may not, and we surely don't want military rule again, which has pegged Pakistan back throughout its history and have not allowed political institutions and democracy to develop.

Look, regardless of their corruption, PPP and PMLN were elected democratically and this new found democracy of Pakistan, which has survived for 8 years, must be allowed to progress. If it doesn't, Pakistan will continue to regress.

Imran should stop making castles in the air and stop being a threat to democracy. What if tomorrow, TUQ along with other Mullahs decides to rally against Imran's government and voices his desire to impose shariah law? What will happen then? He simply setting a wrong precedence.

These are the questions that cannot be answered. Topping governments and imposing martial law aren't the solutions. Our only long-term hope is for democracy to survive, it is the only way forward.

REALLY, Imran is power hungry????I might be crazy and totally illogical here so maybe you can help me understand his greed for power. Usually people in 3rd world countries are greedy about power so they can make some money, some fame, power, influence, protocols, perks etc. So you are saying Imran Khan who had enough money, was one of the most famous Pakistanis in our history, had enough power and connections being married to influencial family so why did he decide to lose everything including his married life??

On the other hand Nawaz Sharif who made deals with ISI to come to power, made millions of dollars (if not billions), wealth increased thousand times, involved all his family members, made amendment to law to become PM for 3rd time and now changing laws to save his corruption and this guys is NOT POWER HUNGRY.

ABSOLUTELY BEYOND MY COMREHENSION why you think Imran Khan is power hungry and Nawaz Sharif is not???

 

[Waseem]

Objectively, how does Sharif gets a way out if he is proven guilty because of this amendment?
People here are losing their mind . The amendment is meant to prevent a gross miscarriage of justice, which can happen even at the highest level of judiciary. Just because a corrupt person can avail it, doesn't make such a move against the concept of natural justice.

Prevent gross miscarriage of justice? So Nawaz Sharif is making an amendment to make sure justice is served? Do you know Nawaz Sharif's history and his relationships with courts? It's famous term in Pakistan that "Sharif wakeel nahi seedha judge kartay hain" and this is common knowledge even before Imran khan joined politics. His tapes are available on net in which his brother and frontmen negotiate case verdicts with judges. And you think he is making an amendment during this all important case for justice

 

[WebGuru]

Objectively, how does Sharif gets a way out if he is proven guilty because of this amendment?
People here are losing their mind . The amendment is meant to prevent a gross miscarriage of justice, which can happen even at the highest level of judiciary. Just because a corrupt person can avail it, doesn't make such a move against the concept of natural justice.

The timing is wrong because in recent past same PMLN was against this amendment when PPP was the ruling party and was standing in SC most of the time and PMLN was loving it. Now even after 3.5 years as ruling party PMLN is only coming up with this amendment when their leader is standing in SC on Panama Leaks case.

 

[WebGuru]

What are the chances of PMLN attacking SC again?

 

[anakin]

The timing is wrong because in recent past same PMLN was against this amendment when PPP was the ruling party and was standing in SC most of the time and PMLN was loving it. Now even after 3.5 years as ruling party PMLN is only coming up with this amendment when their leader is standing in SC on Panama Leaks case.

Whatever be the timing. I don't see any issue with the amendment which intends to add more safeguards within the judicial set up while dispensing justice. In now way does the amendment encroach upon the authority and jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of Pakistan.

I think its a contagious thing across the border, to blame any change the people in power carry out for the benefit for everyone because it might benefit them too.

So Pakistani Ppers want no legal recourse available to a person if the Supreme errs in its judgement.

People sitting on the bench of Supreme Courts cannot be all saints, a little evaluation of their judgements is certainly not a bad idea.

 

[Varun]

Haha, can anything be more brazen than this?

If the peoples of Pakistan vote for Nawaz Sharif and the PML-N yet again come 2018, they deserve everything that comes their way.

Of course, the TINA factor might come into play as somebody pointed out above but better Imran than anyone else you would think? What's there to lose by giving him 5 years.

 

[anakin]

Prevent gross miscarriage of justice? So Nawaz Sharif is making an amendment to make sure justice is served? Do you know Nawaz Sharif's history and his relationships with courts? It's famous term in Pakistan that "Sharif wakeel nahi seedha judge kartay hain" and this is common knowledge even before Imran khan joined politics. His tapes are available on net in which his brother and frontmen negotiate case verdicts with judges. And you think he is making an amendment during this all important case for justice

I have a superficial knowledge of the fracas between the Judiciary and legislature of Pakistan a few years ago.
This amendment doesn't legalise a politician's blatant abuse of power through illegal means.
If you can tell me that how this amendment takes away the final authority and jurisdiction of Supreme Court in the Panamagate, then I am all ears.
Till then this amendment is perfectly sane, reasonable and promotes justice.

 

[Waseem]

I have a superficial knowledge of the fracas between the Judiciary and legislature of Pakistan a few years ago.
This amendment doesn't legalise a politician's blatant abuse of power through illegal means.
If you can tell me that how this amendment takes away the final authority and jurisdiction of Supreme Court in the Panamagate, then I am all ears.
Till then this amendment is perfectly sane, reasonable and promotes justice.

You need to also consider the "trust factor", even Nawaz Sharif's biggest supporters would admit this is being done as a backup option in case SC disqualifies the King and timing of this is absolutely perfect, Nawaz opposed this amendment when PPP proposed it, let's see how it goes, SC may give him benefit of doubt due to some loopholes so he may not need this.
Don't forget we are talking about a man who allegedly changed land registration fee rule for one night when he was registering his MASSIVE Raiwind land (King's palace) to avoid the registration fees even though he had looted more than enough to pay the amount (loose change for him).

 

[Mamoon]

REALLY, Imran is power hungry????I might be crazy and totally illogical here so maybe you can help me understand his greed for power. Usually people in 3rd world countries are greedy about power so they can make some money, some fame, power, influence, protocols, perks etc. So you are saying Imran Khan who had enough money, was one of the most famous Pakistanis in our history, had enough power and connections being married to influencial family so why did he decide to lose everything including his married life??

On the other hand Nawaz Sharif who made deals with ISI to come to power, made millions of dollars (if not billions), wealth increased thousand times, involved all his family members, made amendment to law to become PM for 3rd time and now changing laws to save his corruption and this guys is NOT POWER HUNGRY.

ABSOLUTELY BEYOND MY COMREHENSION why you think Imran Khan is power hungry and Nawaz Sharif is not???

When did I say that Nawaz Sharif is not power hungry? Please point out where I said it?

Imran is power hungry because he cannot accept someone else's authority and considers himself above the law. You should know that back in the end day, he was not only the captain but the coach as well as the selector. He controlled PCB like no captain ever has. When he was first offered captaincy, he took it under the condition that he will have full control on selection matters.

Imran fights for democracy but he has autocratic tendencies. You are simply with him or you are against him; there is no middle-ground. Players who rubbed him the wrong way were shown the door for good.

He plays the same game in politics as well. He has no faith in the judiciary system and no faith in any insitution as long as they are not on his side. Same mentality has reflected on his supporters as well. If you are not a PTI supporter, you must be a PML-N supporter.

He has compromised his own manifesto, taken lotas from other parties who have done nothing for the country and even ignored the ill-doings of his own people in his quest to become PM. As a democratic leader, he has also implored the Umpire (army) to intervene. If this is not being power-hungry, what is it?

If you think that he has no desire of becoming the PM and only wants to get rid of Nawaz for Pakistan's sake, then I am sorry to say you are being naive.

As far as his marriage is concerned, I don't want to dvelve on it because I will be accused again for bringing his personal life to the table, but the fact is that he has had two failed marriages and when you repeatedly fail at something, there is a good indication that you are inept.

Marriage is all about compromise and Imran is not a compromising person. It is either his way or the highway.

 

[Slog]

When did I say that Nawaz Sharif is not power hungry? Please point out where I said it?

Imran is power hungry because he cannot accept someone else's authority and considers himself above the law. You should know that back in the end day, he was not only the captain but the coach as well as the selector. He controlled PCB like no captain ever has. When he was first offered captaincy, he took it under the condition that he will have full control on selection matters.

Imran fights for democracy but he has autocratic tendencies. You are simply with him or you are against him; there is no middle-ground. Players who rubbed him the wrong way were shown the door for good.

He plays the same game in politics as well. He has no faith in the judiciary system and no faith in any insitution as long as they are not on his side. Same mentality has reflected on his supporters as well. If you are not a PTI supporter, you must be a PML-N supporter.

He has compromised his own manifesto, taken lotas from other parties who have done nothing for the country and even ignored the ill-doings of his own people in his quest to become PM. As a democratic leader, he has also implored the Umpire (army) to intervene. If this is not being power-hungry, what is it?

If you think that he has no desire of becoming the PM and only wants to get rid of Nawaz for Pakistan's sake, then I am sorry to say you are being naive.

As far as his marriage is concerned, I don't want to dvelve on it because I will be accused again for bringing his personal life to the table, but the fact is that he has had two failed marriages and when you repeatedly fail at something, there is a good indication that you are inept.

Marriage is all about compromise and Imran is not a compromising person. It is either his way or the highway.

Lol. First you say you don't want to dwell on his marriage but then you bring it up anyways. Then you go on to speculate as to why it failed and how his marriage falling apart points to a character flaw which sets him back in his political career. So this was you not dwelling on it....

Anyways on another note. What will be the event which breaks the straw off the camels back for you in regards to Nawaz shareef? At what point will you take pause and not try to indulge in false equivalency and try to lessen Nawaz sharifs crimes by bringing on at times irrelevant and definitely smaller faults of Imran Khan and PTI?

 

[Waseem]

When did I say that Nawaz Sharif is not power hungry? Please point out where I said it?

Imran is power hungry because he cannot accept someone else's authority and considers himself above the law. You should know that back in the end day, he was not only the captain but the coach as well as the selector. He controlled PCB like no captain ever has. When he was first offered captaincy, he took it under the condition that he will have full control on selection matters.

Imran fights for democracy but he has autocratic tendencies. You are simply with him or you are against him; there is no middle-ground. Players who rubbed him the wrong way were shown the door for good.

He plays the same game in politics as well. He has no faith in the judiciary system and no faith in any insitution as long as they are not on his side. Same mentality has reflected on his supporters as well. If you are not a PTI supporter, you must be a PML-N supporter.

He has compromised his own manifesto, taken lotas from other parties who have done nothing for the country and even ignored the ill-doings of his own people in his quest to become PM. If this is not being power-hungry, what is it?

If you think that he has no desire of becoming the PM and only wants to get rid of Nawaz for Pakistan's sake, then I am sorry to say you are being naive.

As far as his marriage is concerned, I don't want to dvelve on it because I will be accused again for bringing his personal life to the table, but the fact is that he has had two failed marriages and when you repeatedly fail at something, there is a good indication that you are inept.

Marriage is all about compromise and Imran is not a compromising person. It is either his way or the highway.

No sorry you did not answer the question, i didn't talk about Imran's approach. We can all agree or disagree on the approach but you did not explain the reason of his EXTREME hunger for power. What could be the motive?

As for his marriage, it was purely due to his wife wanting to move back to UK. I don't really understand what sort of compromise could Imran have made? He decided to continue to struggle by refusing to move out to save his marriage, live a luxurious and respectful life with most important assets (his 2 sons). What kind of hunger of power is more important than all that? Do you doubt for a second that he would have lived MUCH MUCH better life in UK with his wife and kids?

I am sorry but your "Imran's extreme hunger for power" theory has absolutely no weight, your only argument is Imran's approach to politics which is fair argument but when i am told that our best politicians are Asif Zardari, Nawaz Sharif, Maulana Fazl ur Rehman, Ch Shujaat then there must be something EXTREMELY wrong with our Pakistani definition of good politician?

 

[DW44]

Haha, can anything be more brazen than this?

If the peoples of Pakistan vote for Nawaz Sharif and the PML-N yet again come 2018, they deserve everything that comes their way.

Of course, the TINA factor might come into play as somebody pointed out above but better Imran than anyone else you would think? What's there to lose by giving him 5 years.

No thanks. 12 years of Zia were enough.

 

[Varun]

No thanks. 12 years of Zia were enough.

So you're equating Imran Khan to Zia u Haq?

 

[DW44]

So you're equating Imran Khan to Zia u Haq?

Not necessarily a direct equivalent but close enough. Simply not worth the risk. The damage done by corruption can be undone in a relatively short amount of time by a sufficiently committed government if there is one in the future. The damage done by an ideologically driven extremist government can be impossible to undo, as we are finding out now and you guys will in a few decades. Even if someone can get around to doing something about it, it can take generations to even partially recuperate from it. Corruption is a relatively minor evil by comparison.

 

[Waseem]

No thanks. 12 years of Zia were enough.

Ironic that you are OK with Zia's real son in spirit Nawaz Sharif who openly admitted of completing Zia's mission and he has always tried his best to live/rule like Zia

This is just your extremely biased view and bad bad comparison. Is he completing Zia's mission in KPK?

 

[DW44]

Ironic that you are OK with Zia's real son in spirit Nawaz Sharif who openly admitted of completing Zia's mission and he has always tried his best to live/rule like Zia

This is just your extremely biased view and bad bad comparison. Is he completing Zia's mission in KPK?

Assumptions, assumptions. Who told you I'm OK with NS? Literally the only thing he has going for him in my book is that he's not Imran Khan. Whatever his political history, his recent track record when it comes to religious extremism is still superior to PTI. While it's true that his party is cozy with ASWJ(PTI has a similar seat sharing agreement with them in Kashmir btw), it is also clear that it's more out of political expediency and access to the extremely large extremist vote bank in South Punjab than it is about any ideological leanings. This, while not ideal, at least provides some degree of reassurance that if these thugs become too much of a problem, the government won't go easy on them as is evident by the operation against Jaish that was promptly shut down by the army and resulted in Almeidagate. Even when he was pandering to TTP around 2009, there was a clear political motive behind that which was to keep their kingdom, and therefore votebank, safe from TTP attacks.

With option number two, PTI, it's evident by now that their close links with extremists are down as much to shared ideology as they are to political expediency. There is no need for them to stay in an alliance with JI but they continue to and have stated multiple times before the elections that they are ideologically on the same page. The donation of $3 million to the finishing school for Afghan Taliban when that same week 14 girls colleges were shut down due to a $2.8 million funding shortfall gave a good enough idea of their priorities especially when they meekly backed down when Sami ul Haq promptly refuted their claims that Jamia Haqqania would be "brought into the mainstream", whatever that means. You were conveniently missing from the thread where education officials in KPK were complaining about not being allowed to update Islamiat, Pakistan Studies and Urdu textbooks by religious parties(translation: JI and JUI-S, the two parties that have the PTI government's official backing). While you may dismiss that as a minor issue, let us not forget that the education system is responsible for the current generation of Pakistanis being the most extremist one in our history and in case you were wondering, Zia and, surprise surprise, JI were the ones responsible for that the last time.

I'm no more biased against PTI than you are against PML-N especially since I don't have a personal stake in which one of them gets to rule us, both are horrible choices tbh. I simply oppose PTI for the same reason you guys oppose PML-N which is that they're the absolute worst party bar none when it comes to the particular issue that we consider the most important one, corruption for you guys and religious extremism for me.

 

[Waseem]

Ironic that you are OK with Zia's real son in spirit Nawaz Sharif who openly admitted of completing Zia's mission and he has always tried his best to live/rule like Zia

This is just your extremely biased view and bad bad comparison. Is he completing Zia's mission in KPK?

To add a bit, i was discussing politics with an educated JUIF supporter (yes they exist) and he was arguing that his dislike for Imran is because he has no respect for Ulema (not just Fazal), he is Irani agent and promotes Shia point of view, no aalim likes him in the country and there is nothing Islamic in him and how some of his education policies are promoting Kuffar agenda.
So for some he is foriegn agent and to others he is on Zia's mission. Don't issue blanket statement just because you dont agree with some of his views.
For me, it was important that he CLEARLY talked about importance of Shia-Sunni harmony (no one discusses this openly), he has started special projects to promote women education, he has brought back women to politics, he educated youth in jalsa to treat minorities like VIPs, celebrated Diwali with Hindu community and provided funds for renovation of worship places of minorities. He spoke against Mumtaz Qadri, supported release of Asia bibi (Christian woman accused on blasphemy) and even favoured amendments to blasphemy law.

Sure Zia ul Haq was known for all the above

 

[Slog]

No thanks. 12 years of Zia were enough.

The irony here is through the roof. It takes the case that Nawaz Sharif is the other party in discussion

 

[Waseem]

Assumptions, assumptions. Who told you I'm OK with NS? Literally the only thing he has going for him in my book is that he's not Imran Khan. Whatever his political history, his recent track record when it comes to religious extremism is still superior to PTI. While it's true that his party is cozy with ASWJ(PTI has a similar seat sharing agreement with them in Kashmir btw), it is also clear that it's more out of political expediency and access to the extremely large extremist vote bank in South Punjab than it is about any ideological leanings. This, while not ideal, at least provides some degree of reassurance that if these thugs become too much of a problem, the government won't go easy on them as is evident by the operation against Jaish that was promptly shut down by the army and resulted in Almeidagate. Even when he was pandering to TTP around 2009, there was a clear political motive behind that which was to keep their kingdom, and therefore votebank, safe from TTP attacks.

With option number two, PTI, it's evident by now that their close links with extremists are down as much to shared ideology as they are to political expediency. There is no need for them to stay in an alliance with JI but they continue to and have stated multiple times before the elections that they are ideologically on the same page. The donation of $3 million to the finishing school for Afghan Taliban when that same week 14 girls colleges were shut down due to a $2.8 million funding shortfall gave a good enough idea of their priorities especially when they meekly backed down when Sami ul Haq promptly refuted their claims that Jamia Haqqania would be "brought into the mainstream", whatever that means. You were conveniently missing from the thread where education officials in KPK were complaining about not being allowed to update Islamiat, Pakistan Studies and Urdu textbooks by religious parties(translation: JI and JUI-S, the two parties that have the PTI government's official backing). While you may dismiss that as a minor issue, let us not forget that the education system is responsible for the current generation of Pakistanis being the most extremist one in our history and in case you were wondering, Zia and, surprise surprise, JI were the ones responsible for that the last time.

I'm no more biased against PTI than you are against PML-N especially since I don't have a personal stake in which one of them gets to rule us, both are horrible choices tbh. I simply oppose PTI for the same reason you guys oppose PML-N which is that they're the absolute worst party bar none when it comes to the particular issue that we consider the most important one, corruption for you guys and religious extremism for me.

We will go around in circles as we have discussed this before and i also told you before that if you compare Imran with Zia and not Nawaz Sharif who is the ideological son of Zia then doesn't matter whether you support Nawaz or not, you are clearly biased.

You have picked bits about Madrassah funding which i do agree to some extent but as i expained in my previous post, he has absolutely no comparison with Zia whatsoever, there are many examples that are far more important like views on blasphemy law, how many have openly talked about amendment? Remember even one of our most moderate Mr Bhutto (who i also have huge respect for) had to bring laws to declare people as kafirs to please Mullahs? Even Salman Taseer mentioned in his interview before he was murdered that Imran Khan agrees with his viewsabout amendments to blasphemy law.

 

[DW44]

To add a bit, i was discussing politics with an educated JUIF supporter (yes they exist) and he was arguing that his dislike for Imran is because he has no respect for Ulema (not just Fazal), he is Irani agent and promotes Shia point of view, no aalim likes him in the country and there is nothing Islamic in him and how some of his education policies are promoting Kuffar agenda.
So for some he is foriegn agent and to others he is on Zia's mission. Don't issue blanket statement just because you dont agree with some of his views.
For me, it was important that he CLEARLY talked about importance of Shia-Sunni harmony (no one discusses this openly), he has started special projects to promote women education, he has brought back women to politics, he educated youth in jalsa to treat minorities like VIPs, celebrated Diwali with Hindu community and provided funds for renovation of worship places of minorities. He spoke against Mumtaz Qadri, supported release of Asia bibi (Christian woman accused on blasphemy) and even favoured amendments to blasphemy law.

Sure Zia ul Haq was known for all the above

Would that be the same JUI-F that is allied with N-League and has been publicly feuding with PTI for years? Sure, their opinion sounds credible enough. Next time maybe seek the opinion of a JUI-S supporter, see if they say the same thing. JUI is a running joke that throws around accusations of being anti-Islam and Irani agent(lol) against anyone they don't like. Besides, as extremist as JUI-F may be, they have nothing on TTP in that regard and they didn't seem to think IK was an Irani agent when they wanted him to represent them in peace talks. I'm sure you're going to use his refusal as a counterpoint here so let me preempt that by saying so what? It would have been political suicide for him to say yes.

I'd rather judge his party by their deeds rather than their rhetoric. Paying lip service to shia-sunni harmony and women's education is meaningless when you're funding a finishing school for the Afghan taliban, whose opinions on shia-sunni harmony are well known, with money that could have saved 14 girls colleges from being shut down. The worst thing one can do, with regards to extremism, is letting it be taught at schools. If Zia's progeny Nawaz and Shehbaz managed to cleanse their province's school curriculum of Zia's filth, why is PTI with a 50% plurality in KPK not only having such a hard time doing the same but actually allowing some of the cleaning up done by the previous government to be undone? We're already seeing the taliban generation coming of age, do we really want the next generation to be even worse?

 

[DW44]

We will go around in circles as we have discussed this before and i also told you before that if you compare Imran with Zia and not Nawaz Sharif who is the ideological son of Zia then doesn't matter whether you support Nawaz or not, you are clearly biased.

You have picked bits about Madrassah funding which i do agree to some extent but as i expained in my previous post, he has absolutely no comparison with Zia whatsoever, there are many examples that are far more important like views on blasphemy law, how many have openly talked about amendment? Remember even one of our most moderate Mr Bhutto (who i also have huge respect for) had to bring laws to declare people as kafirs to please Mullahs? Even Salman Taseer mentioned in his interview before he was murdered that Imran Khan agrees with his viewsabout amendments to blasphemy law.

Blasphemy law and Bhutto's anti Ahmadi laws etc. are minor issues in the grand scheme of things. They're a consequence, not the cause, of religious extremism in the country. The cause is the state creating an environment where it's legitimacy is tied to it's position on religion's role in governance and society, thereby setting off a self perpetuating chain reaction. Blasphemy and anti-ahmadi laws were created after Pakistani society had been religiously charged, first by Bhutto's patronage of the extreme right alongwith selling Pakistan to the Arab monarchies, followed by Zia delivering the coup de grace. These laws are a symptom of a larger disease, one that IK is now perpetuating by allowing extremist parties space to influence laws and, far more importantly, the education system. In case your history is a bit rusty, that's essentially what Bhutto and Zia did too.

 

[DW44]

The irony here is through the roof. It takes the case that Nawaz Sharif is the other party in discussion

People keep bringing up the fact that Zia created PML-N as some sort of proof that they're extremists. By that token, shouldn't MQM, another of Zia's fine creations, also be extremists? PML has and continues to patronize extremist organizations, that much is beyond question. The issue here is that while it's obvious they're only interested in whatever political capital they can get out of it, as evident by their readiness to turn on even khaki sponsored groups when needed, it's just as obvious that the other side's love for these same groups has at least somewhat of an ideological angle even if some of it is for political reasons. It's like having to chose between horse excrement and pigeon excrement.

 

[Waseem]

Blasphemy law and Bhutto's anti Ahmadi laws etc. are minor issues in the grand scheme of things. They're a consequence, not the cause, of religious extremism in the country. The cause is the state creating an environment where it's legitimacy is tied to it's position on religion's role in governance and society, thereby setting off a self perpetuating chain reaction. Blasphemy and anti-ahmadi laws were created after Pakistani society had been religiously charged, first by Bhutto's patronage of the extreme right alongwith selling Pakistan to the Arab monarchies, followed by Zia delivering the coup de grace. These laws are a symptom of a larger disease, one that IK is now perpetuating by allowing extremist parties space to influence laws and, far more importantly, the education system. In case your history is a bit rusty, that's essentially what Bhutto and Zia did too.

As i said, we will go around in circles since you have firm opinion about him. You think school curriculum/madrassha funding (as part of reform) is a major issue and his views about blasphemy law, Shia-Sunni unity, inter faith harmony, views against popular Mumtaz Qadri, women education etc are just minor and he is still like Zia ul Haq then nothing will convince you.
When there are far bigger issues in education sector than bits anf pieces of curriculum you have to priortise and i don't believe in any propaganda about women school closing because we have sponsored few girls education schools in KPK as part of PTI intiative, our rep travelled to parts of KPK himself, took pictures of schools and presented reports of improvement.

 

[DW44]

As i said, we will go around in circles since you have firm opinion about him. You think school curriculum/madrassha funding (as part of reform) is a major issue and his views about blasphemy law, Shia-Sunni unity, inter faith harmony, views against popular Mumtaz Qadri, women education etc are just minor and he is still like Zia ul Haq then nothing will convince you.
When there are far bigger issues in education sector than bits anf pieces of curriculum you have to priortise and i don't believe in any propaganda about women school closing because we have sponsored few girls education schools in KPK as part of PTI intiative, our rep travelled to parts of KPK himself, took pictures of schools and presented reports of improvement.

Yes, I have a firm opinion about him. Do you know how I formed that opinion? By listening to what he's had to say and observing his policy decisions since taking over the provincial government in my province, on the back of my vote no less. He's not my phuppi ka beta who owes me money which has resulted in me hating him. Like I said before, I don't have a personal stake in either party's success, all I care about are the issues. Secondly, you have just as much of a pro-PTI/anti-PML bias as I do an anti-PTI/anti-PML bias which is evident by your equivocating over serious missteps by PTI and glossing over their failures with aaein baein shaein type excuses.

For you, it may just be bits and pieces of curriculum but on issues like this, I prefer the scientific approach i.e. verifiability and repeatability are paramount. In the curriculum issue, there is already precedent of extremist content being used in school curricula and the results are terrifying to say the least. Not just that, one might go so far as to say that no other decision by any previous government has had as much of a role to play in turning Pakistani society as a whole towards extremism as the Zia government's decision to teach that stuff at schools and allow extremist madrassas to proliferate, both of which PTI is doing right now. This brings me to repeatability. This isn't the first time this is happening so the wait and see excuse doesn't work. This has been done before and the last time it was, it gave us the taliban generation. It says a lot that even PML-N, who you never fail to remind me were created by Zia, and PPP, who started the Islamization of Pakistan(admittedly on groundwork laid decades back by Liaqat Ali Khan), have done something about this in their respective provinces but PTI not only is letting it go unchecked, it's actually complicit in their coalition partners undoing the few changes that were actually made by previous governments.

 

[Waseem]

Yes, I have a firm opinion about him. Do you know how I formed that opinion? By listening to what he's had to say and observing his policy decisions since taking over the provincial government in my province, on the back of my vote no less. He's not my phuppi ka beta who owes me money which has resulted in me hating him. Like I said before, I don't have a personal stake in either party's success, all I care about are the issues. Secondly, you have just as much of a pro-PTI/anti-PML bias as I do an anti-PTI/anti-PML bias which is evident by your equivocating over serious missteps by PTI and glossing over their failures with aaein baein shaein type excuses.

For you, it may just be bits and pieces of curriculum but on issues like this, I prefer the scientific approach i.e. verifiability and repeatability are paramount. In the curriculum issue, there is already precedent of extremist content being used in school curricula and the results are terrifying to say the least. Not just that, one might go so far as to say that no other decision by any previous government has had as much of a role to play in turning Pakistani society as a whole towards extremism as the Zia government's decision to teach that stuff at schools and allow extremist madrassas to proliferate, both of which PTI is doing right now. This brings me to repeatability. This isn't the first time this is happening so the wait and see excuse doesn't work. This has been done before and the last time it was, it gave us the taliban generation. It says a lot that even PML-N, who you never fail to remind me were created by Zia, and PPP, who started the Islamization of Pakistan(admittedly on groundwork laid decades back by Liaqat Ali Khan), have done something about this in their respective provinces but PTI not only is letting it go unchecked, it's actually complicit in their coalition partners undoing the few changes that were actually made by previous governments.

LEJ se yaad aaya, Imran Khan is one of the only few politicians who named and criticised Lashkar e Jhangvi openly in interviews and jalsas, makes comparison with Zia much more stupid.

 

[DW44]

LEJ se yaad aaya, Imran Khan is one of the only few politicians who named and criticised Lashkar e Jhangvi openly in interviews and jalsas, makes comparison with Zia much more stupid.

Also the only provincial government that included LeJ's parent organizations, ASWJ and SSP, as stakeholders in formulating security plans for Muharram. Imran's criticism of LeJ also didn't seem to stop his party from entering into an electoral alliance with ASWJ, LeJ's political front, in Kashmir. There were two regions where ASWJ and SSP attended meetings with local officials before Muharram. The first was with KPK government and their depoliticised police and the second was in Karachi with the rangers. Even Nooras, whose links to the ASWJ-SSP-LeJ organization(let's not pretend they're not one and the same with different names for legal purposes) are second only to the boots that must not be named didn't go far enough to actually invite them to be a part of the security setup for Muharram. I'm sure the irony of ASWJ being part of the security plans for Muharram of all events is not lost on you given who usually carries out sectarian attacks on Muharram in the first place.

 

[Bewal Express]

'Yes he's corrupt but I'll vote for him anyway'

Do you know what that's called? Stupidity.

Regardless of which set of supporters is intelligent, we atleast know that PML-N supporters wouldn't know what is irony even if it smacked them in the face.

Our dear Noora friend accepted that he is corrupt, from this any intelligent person would call for his jailing but our friend decided that he is worth voting for. Confused, i am but this is Noora logic.

 

[Slog]

People keep bringing up the fact that Zia created PML-N as some sort of proof that they're extremists. By that token, shouldn't MQM, another of Zia's fine creations, also be extremists? PML has and continues to patronize extremist organizations, that much is beyond question. The issue here is that while it's obvious they're only interested in whatever political capital they can get out of it, as evident by their readiness to turn on even khaki sponsored groups when needed, it's just as obvious that the other side's love for these same groups has at least somewhat of an ideological angle even if some of it is for political reasons. It's like having to chose between horse excrement and pigeon excrement.

So MQM isnt an extremist organization?

You are living in a fools paradise if you genuinely think PML-N has no ideological alignment with the right wing extremist groups. Secondly even if I accept that its just political expediency as you claim then its even worse because its a case being the devil you dont know. What else could they be propping up in the future in search of political gains? The possibilities are terrifying

 

[DW44]

So MQM isnt an extremist organization?

You are living in a fools paradise if you genuinely think PML-N has no ideological alignment with the right wing extremist groups. Secondly even if I accept that its just political expediency as you claim then its even worse because its a case being the devil you dont know. What else could they be propping up in the future in search of political gains? The possibilities are terrifying

MQM is a lot of things but a religious extremist organization it is not. That bit is pertinent because your implication seemed to be that created by Zia = sure shot religious extremism(otherwise I don't see the point of several people repeatedly bringing that up).

Secondly, even if we accept the premise that PML has some degree of ideological alignment with the terrorists, PML also has a history of going after them when they start getting too big for their boots. This is nothing new and even as far back as the 90s, they were target killing LeJ members after, as usual, khakis refused to do anything about the then new phenomena of sectarian terrorists, similar to the recent episode with the operation against Jaish that, again, got shut down by the khakis. With PTI, what we've seen so far is that these people get unlimited latitude to do as they please and promote their ideology and values, including using government machinery. I get tired of repeating myself but that is exactly what allowing JI to control school curricula and funding a madrassah that has among it's alumni virtually every high ranking member of the Afghan Taliban amounts to. You ask what if? That what if is actually playing out in KPK.

 

[DW44]

So MQM isnt an extremist organization?

You are living in a fools paradise if you genuinely think PML-N has no ideological alignment with the right wing extremist groups. Secondly even if I accept that its just political expediency as you claim then its even worse because its a case being the devil you dont know. What else could they be propping up in the future in search of political gains? The possibilities are terrifying

MQM is a lot of things but a religious extremist organization it is not. That bit is pertinent because your implication seemed to be that created by Zia = sure shot religious extremism(otherwise I don't see the point of several people repeatedly bringing that up).

Secondly, even if we accept the premise that PML has some degree of ideological alignment with the terrorists, PML also has a history of going after them when they start getting too big for their boots. This is nothing new and even as far back as the 90s, they were target killing LeJ members after, as usual, khakis refused to do anything about the then new phenomena of sectarian terrorists, similar to the recent episode with the operation against Jaish that, again, got shut down by the khakis. With PTI, what we've seen so far is that these people get unlimited latitude to do as they please and promote their ideology and values, including using government machinery. I get tired of repeating myself but that is exactly what allowing JI to control school curricula and funding a madrassah that has among it's alumni virtually every high ranking member of the Afghan Taliban amounts to. You ask what if? That what if is actually playing out in KPK.

To add to my previous point, both Bhutto and Zia are acknowledged as the men responsible for the widespread proliferation of religious extremism among the masses, organizations espousing extremist ideology and using violent means to achieve them, and the Islamization of the country in general. It's also no secret that most of Bhutto's actions on this front were motivated by political expediency while Zia's were a product of ideological conviction. Today, is there any doubt which one of the two did more damage, both long term and short term, the man who used them for political reasons or the ideologue?

 

[Slog]

To add to my previous point, both Bhutto and Zia are acknowledged as the men responsible for the widespread proliferation of religious extremism among the masses, organizations espousing extremist ideology and using violent means to achieve them, and the Islamization of the country in general. It's also no secret that most of Bhutto's actions on this front were motivated by political expediency while Zia's were a product of ideological conviction. Today, is there any doubt which one of the two did more damage, both long term and short term, the man who used them for political reasons or the ideologue?

Bhutto set the ball rolling which led to Zia

Zia was in full control for over a decade over which his policies took place so from a political science perspective your comparison is weak because Zia was in control for more than twice the period as Bhutto almost and with several times the power Bhutto had

 

[zimmz]

So if Sharif make deals with ASWJ or request TTP not to attack us since we are brothers, they have political motive behind them and if IK ask for political solution for TTP and all sort of extremism he is continuation of Zia.

 

[Syed1]

So if Sharif make deals with ASWJ or request TTP not to attack us since we are brothers, they have political motive behind them and if IK ask for political solution for TTP and all sort of extremism he is continuation of Zia.

Some of this Noora logic is hard to comprehend..

 

[DW44]

So if Sharif make deals with ASWJ or request TTP not to attack us since we are brothers, they have political motive behind them and if IK ask for political solution for TTP and all sort of extremism he is continuation of Zia.

Ermmm, yes. Said motive would be to keep them from attacking the place where they get their votes and in case you missed it, the attacks really did stop. IK asking for a political situation(a masterpiece of wordplay and making an unpalatable proposition look reasonable btw) to TTP is not the sole reason he's a continuation of Zia(again, your words, not mine. Mine would be 'a slightly milder version of Zia). This is one of my main gripes with PTI supporters. They'll pick one issue and go with their if-this-then-that, reducing the whole thing to a binary either-or equation. That's not how things work in real life. PTI continues to use Zia's policy of letting the mullahs decide what's taught in our schools and funding madrassas with alumni lists that read like a who's who of the terrorist world among many, many things.

Bhutto set the ball rolling which led to Zia

Zia was in full control for over a decade over which his policies took place so from a political science perspective your comparison is weak because Zia was in control for more than twice the period as Bhutto almost and with several times the power Bhutto had

The ball was set rolling by Liaqat Ali Khan when Objectives Resolution was passed. What Bhutto did was provide enough patronage to the right to strengthen his hold on power but men like that don't like sharing power which is why these elements never gained the strength to be a part of mainstream society or form a power base of their own. Zia, on the other hand, threw his lot in with them which meant that their gain was his gain. That's the difference between the politician and the ideologue. The former will only use them for his own gains, which is not a noble endeavor by any means lest you mistake my argument for a justification of using these elements for political reasons, but the latter seeks to make them part of the system and strengthen them.

 

[Syed1]

Ermmm, yes. Said motive would be to keep them from attacking the place where they get their votes and in case you missed it, the attacks really did stop. IK asking for a political situation(a masterpiece of wordplay and making an unpalatable proposition look reasonable btw) to TTP is not the sole reason he's a continuation of Zia(again, your words, not mine. Mine would be 'a slightly milder version of Zia). This is one of my main gripes with PTI supporters. They'll pick one issue and go with their if-this-then-that, reducing the whole thing to a binary either-or equation. That's not how things work in real life. PTI continues to use Zia's policy of letting the mullahs decide what's taught in our schools and funding madrassas with alumni lists that read like a who's who of the terrorist world among many, many things.

What sort of logic is this, the guy who holds talks with TTP to stop attacks on their beloved Punjab is correct, but the guy who wants to hold talks with TTP to stop attacks on ALL of Pakistan is labelled as "Taliban Khan". Logic and rationality really isn't your strong suite is it?



So it is ok for a sitting Prime Minister to say "hey the people of the other three provinces are dispensable just don't harm my fellow Punjabis"

 

[DW44]

What sort of logic is this, the guy who holds talks with TTP to stop attacks on their beloved Punjab is correct, but the guy who wants to hold talks with TTP to stop attacks on ALL of Pakistan is labelled as "Taliban Khan". Logic and rationality really isn't your strong suite is it?

Wait what? Who said it was correct? You really do live in your own little world, don't you? It was a slimy, scummy thing to do but from a political point of view, it worked since attacks on Punjab stopped shortly afterwards. I ripped PML-N to shreds on this very forum over this when this first happened in 2009 and have done so repeatedly. As for the guy who is labelled Taliban Khan, he gets that moniker for many, many things not just for wanting to talk to TTP, never mind the fact that the futility of talking to TTP had been established long before he came up with this revolutionary idea. That PTI supporters can't process more than one issue at a time and feel the need to reduce everything to either-or and then go to town on it is not my problem. Ignor

So it is ok for a sitting Prime Minister to say "hey the people of the other three provinces are dispensable just don't harm my fellow Punjabis"

Wait, when did Gilani ask TTP not to harm his fellow Punjabis? This happened during PPP's tenure and the person who asked TTP to stand down was Shahbaz Sharif, not the sitting PM, not that the sitting PM then or now are any better. I've suggested to you before to at least read up on the facts before inserting yourself in the middle of an argument between people who actually know what they're talking about lest you come out of the exchange looking foolish. Anyway, still waiting for those examples of you valiantly fighting the forces of evil and exposing my lies. Any chance I'd see them today?

 

[uberkoen]

'Yes he's corrupt but I'll vote for him anyway'

Do you know what that's called? Stupidity.

Regardless of which set of supporters is intelligent, we atleast know that PML-N supporters wouldn't know what is irony even if it smacked them in the face.

I posted another post on this topic in reply to a similar, albiet a much ruder, post by [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION]


The point was that regardless of the amount in question. Corruption is corruption. The difference is that PML-N voters acknowledge the fact whereas, PTI supporters turn a blind eye to it. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is worse.

Imran Khan has been on record saying that he formed offshore companies for UK tax evasion (http://www.dawn.com/news/1258139). He also had property in London which was never declared in Pakistan as it was owned by an offshore company (https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/119662-Imrans-London-property-was-owned-by-offshore-company).


Then there is a question on his currently declared assets where the declared value is much lower than the market value (http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/333351-PM-Imran-Khan-has-no-property-abroad-details-of-)

Moreover, he paid a total income tax of Rs. 76,000 in 2015 (http://tribune.com.pk/story/1179751/odd-men-nawaz-imran-paid-less-tax-2015-previous-year/). There was also another issue about him not filing tax returns of Jemimah while they were still married. It was necessary for Imran to declare the assets owned by Jemima in Pakistan. But he violated the Income Tax Ordinance by not doing so. (http://www.financialexpress.com/wor...-come-to-haunt-imran-khan-in-pakistan/437455/)


What's more stupid now? Voting in a politically inept corrupt person or corrupt politician who knows how to run a country?

Between the two, for me the choice is simple. However, as soon as there is a better option available I will not think twice before voting for that person.

 

[DW44]

Moreover, he paid a total income tax of Rs. 76,000 in 2015 (http://tribune.com.pk/story/1179751/odd-men-nawaz-imran-paid-less-tax-2015-previous-year/).

He pays less income tax than I do? Despite living in a place my family or I couldn't afford in a hundred years?

 

[endymion248]

No sorry you did not answer the question, i didn't talk about Imran's approach. We can all agree or disagree on the approach but you did not explain the reason of his EXTREME hunger for power. What could be the motive?

As for his marriage, it was purely due to his wife wanting to move back to UK. I don't really understand what sort of compromise could Imran have made? He decided to continue to struggle by refusing to move out to save his marriage, live a luxurious and respectful life with most important assets (his 2 sons). What kind of hunger of power is more important than all that? Do you doubt for a second that he would have lived MUCH MUCH better life in UK with his wife and kids?

I am sorry but your "Imran's extreme hunger for power" theory has absolutely no weight, your only argument is Imran's approach to politics which is fair argument but when i am told that our best politicians are Asif Zardari, Nawaz Sharif, Maulana Fazl ur Rehman, Ch Shujaat then there must be something EXTREMELY wrong with our Pakistani definition of good politician?

Of course Imran would have had a better life with his kids and wife in the UK with all the money he has earned. But he is power hungry and will do anything to become prime minister, even sacrifice rest and home life. Why? For the same reason that Nawaz Sharif and Zardari keep looting money even though they have billions of dollars. No amount of money will satiate their greed and no amount of fame and adulation will satiate Imran's ego. And they'd both throw Pakistan to the dogs before giving up their hunger.

 

[uberkoen]

He pays less income tax than I do? Despite living in a place my family or I couldn't afford in a hundred years?

Exactly. Based on his income tax payment his monthly income should be around 115K. You really think he's earning 115K a month? MNC's pay more than that to management trainee's but no no Imran isn't corrupt at all.

 

[Slog]

He pays less income tax than I do? Despite living in a place my family or I couldn't afford in a hundred years?

The parliamentary salary is his only source of income to be fair

He doesn't have any big business to fall back on

 

[uberkoen]

The parliamentary salary is his only source of income to be fair

He doesn't have any big business to fall back on

No, it's not. He has agricultural land as well.

 

[Bewal Express]

Exactly. Based on his income tax payment his monthly income should be around 115K. You really think he's earning 115K a month? MNC's pay more than that to management trainee's but no no Imran isn't corrupt at all.

Your Nooraism shows in every post. If IK was corrupt then why hasnt NS and his cronies nailed him, if as you claim the evidence is so obvious then this looks like a open and shut case maybe you can contact Maryams media cell and send the evidence . The Stupidity of your logic is never better demonstrated by the fact that IK never been in power and hence cant use patronage like the guy you vote for. Just before i finish, explain what the Nooras are waiting for before they nail him?

 

[uberkoen]

..and [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION],

here's another gem from Imran doodh ka dhulla Khan

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...d-of-benefiting-from-2000-tax-amnesty-scheme/

Contrary to his critical stance on tax amnesty schemes, Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf chief Imran Khan has been accused of benefiting from 2000 Tax Amnesty Scheme, under which he accepted ownership of his London flat.

According to a report of The News International, Imran Khan began filing his tax returns in Pakistan in 1982 and bought London flat in 1983.

However PTI chief never mentioned the flat in his assets declaration documents with FBR from 1982 to 2000, when then President Pervez Musharraf announced a tax amnesty scheme. He neither declared the offshore entity named Niazi Services Limited in tax returns.

In his 2001 tax documents, Imran Khan mentioned that he owns a Rs20,00,000 worth flat in London. But, contrary to Khan’s claim, the report said that flat located in London’s South Kingston area was bought against Rs24,38,000.

Responding to the allegations, the legal counsel for Imran Khan, Yousuf Ali Chaudhry, said that Pakistan’s tax law did not necessarily demand citizens to declare their foreign assets till 1999. That is why Imran Khan was fully justified to mention only his Pakistani assets in his tax returns.

However, he declared the ownership of his London flat in 2001, after then government amended the tax laws, he said.

 

[uberkoen]

Your Nooraism shows in every post. If IK was corrupt then why hasnt NS and his cronies nailed him, if as you claim the evidence is so obvious then this looks like a open and shut case maybe you can contact Maryams media cell and send the evidence . The Stupidity of your logic is never better demonstrated by the fact that IK never been in power and hence cant use patronage like the guy you vote for. Just before i finish, explain what the Nooras are waiting for before they nail him?

Bro, you need to chill out. I don't know why you get so worked up.

I'm assuming by 'nail' him you mean take him to court and the courts end up finding him guilty of corruption? So basically then anyone who hasn't been found guilty of corruption by Pakistani courts then isn't corrupt by your logic? Which Pakistani politician has been 'nailed' for corruption? Zardari? Nawaz? Going by your logic no one is corrupt.

 

[Bewal Express]

Bro, you need to chill out. I don't know why you get so worked up.

I'm assuming by 'nail' him you mean take him to court and the courts end up finding him guilty of corruption? So basically then anyone who hasn't been found guilty of corruption by Pakistani courts then isn't corrupt by your logic? Which Pakistani politician has been 'nailed' for corruption? Zardari? Nawaz? Going by your logic no one is corrupt.

Bro, if IK was corrupt i would hate him more than any Noora. IK is flawed but for anyone to claim him as corrupt then has to take him to court and btw Khawaja Asif claimed this before the 2013 elections and we are still waiting. As to your point about the courts, it would be a fair point if Ik had the power of patronage over lets say the FBR, NAB etc like the Sharifs and AZ. But he hasn't. As i said earlier i find rich people stealing from the poor lower than vermin and if IK ever became like the Sharifs, he would be even lower because we expect it from them but not him.

 

[WebGuru]

Hanif Abbasi on orders from Raiwind gone into Supreme Court already with all those papers against both Imran and Tareen. FBR according to their statements in SC so far found nothing against Imran or Tareen. I guess FBR isn't Insafian?

Nothing illegal found against Imran Khan so far: FBR to SC
http://dailytimes.com.pk/islamabad/...gal-found-against-imran-khan-so-far-fbr-to-sc

No discrepancy found in Jahangir Tareen’s tax record
tribune.com.pk/story/1244685/no-discrepancy-found-tareens-tax-record/

 

[Slog]

Your Nooraism shows in every post. If IK was corrupt then why hasnt NS and his cronies nailed him, if as you claim the evidence is so obvious then this looks like a open and shut case maybe you can contact Maryams media cell and send the evidence . The Stupidity of your logic is never better demonstrated by the fact that IK never been in power and hence cant use patronage like the guy you vote for. Just before i finish, explain what the Nooras are waiting for before they nail him?

..and [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION],

here's another gem from Imran doodh ka dhulla Khan

https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pak...d-of-benefiting-from-2000-tax-amnesty-scheme/

As I said you are master of false equivalence

If for one moment you think that the scale is similar then only Allah can help you

 

[Waseem]

Of course Imran would have had a better life with his kids and wife in the UK with all the money he has earned. But he is power hungry and will do anything to become prime minister, even sacrifice rest and home life. Why? For the same reason that Nawaz Sharif and Zardari keep looting money even though they have billions of dollars. No amount of money will satiate their greed and no amount of fame and adulation will satiate Imran's ego. And they'd both throw Pakistan to the dogs before giving up their hunger.

Oh janay de bhai, come on now

Wasim Akram is living a lavish life today because of his commentary/coaching job and is very well respected so pretty much dream life and since this is cricket forum i don't need to explain what status Imran had in cricket world. Now don't know the exact figure but Jamima inherited 10s of millions dollars which was more than enough to live a dream life especially with his wife and kids in UK.

Now if you ignore all that, tell me in 20 years what has Imran Khan done to get financial benefits? Other than politics, he still spends most of his time collecting donations for hospital and university and if anything he has increased the number of hospitals he supports NOT HIS PERSONAL WEALTH.
From his wife to his critics in politics admit that the man has absolutely no desire for money (except for PMLN darbari brigade).

Now we have people raising doubts on his taxes and even question his legal tax avoidance while defending Sharif's shameless tax evsion, corruption, money laundering and then they say "When did i support Nawaz Sharif" lol

 

[endymion248]

Oh janay de bhai, come on now

Wasim Akram is living a lavish life today because of his commentary/coaching job and is very well respected so pretty much dream life and since this is cricket forum i don't need to explain what status Imran had in cricket world. Now don't know the exact figure but Jamima inherited 10s of millions dollars which was more than enough to live a dream life especially with his wife and kids in UK.

Now if you ignore all that, tell me in 20 years what has Imran Khan done to get financial benefits? Other than politics, he still spends most of his time collecting donations for hospital and university and if anything he has increased the number of hospitals he supports NOT HIS PERSONAL WEALTH.
From his wife to his critics in politics admit that the man has absolutely no desire for money (except for PMLN darbari brigade).

Now we have people raising doubts on his taxes and even question his legal tax avoidance while defending Sharif's shameless tax evsion, corruption, money laundering and then they say "When did i support Nawaz Sharif" lol

This line of defense that ''Imran has money and fame'' doesn't make any sense since Sharifs and Zardari are much more richer and comfortable than him and still not giving up politics. Being a rich man in politics doesn't suddenly make you a saint. Secondly, nobody has said that Imran Khan is after money, he is after the pm seat because he is a megalomaniac with a massive ego who wants adulation.

 

[Waseem]

Hanif Abbasi on orders from Raiwind gone into Supreme Court already with all those papers against both Imran and Tareen. FBR according to their statements in SC so far found nothing against Imran or Tareen. I guess FBR isn't Insafian?

Nothing illegal found against Imran Khan so far: FBR to SC
http://dailytimes.com.pk/islamabad/...gal-found-against-imran-khan-so-far-fbr-to-sc

No discrepancy found in Jahangir Tareen’s tax record
tribune.com.pk/story/1244685/no-discrepancy-found-tareens-tax-record/

Well this will be ignored by certain group with motto "I don't support PMLN but i will defend everything they do and criticise Imran Khan".

I am worried about Imran's taxes, his legal tax avoidance while playing ALL due taxes in England, i would question his non existent wealth in Pakistan and his only house even though he has presented his tax records in front of media, was first one to make asset information available on PTI website and answered all the questions.
I will even defend Sharif's lies in Panam case, defend flip flops and fake Qatari letters. I will defend Sharif's corruption allegations from 90's, his 1000 times increase in wealth since coming to power (SERVING PAKISTAN DAY AND NIGHT) and will defend everything they do but "DONT CALL ME PMLN SUPPORTER, WHEN DID I EVER SUPPORT THEM"

 

[Waseem]

This line of defense that ''Imran has money and fame'' doesn't make any sense since Sharifs and Zardari are much more richer and comfortable than him and still not giving up politics. Being a rich man in politics doesn't suddenly make you a saint. Secondly, nobody has said that Imran Khan is after money, he is after the pm seat because he is a megalomaniac with a massive ego who wants adulation.

You are totally off the mark there my friend, we weren't comparing Imran's wealth with Nawaz/Zardari.
The issue in discussion is "HUNGER FOR POWER". You can read my post again, i don't have to repeat myself.

 

[godzilla]

This line of defense that ''Imran has money and fame'' doesn't make any sense since Sharifs and Zardari are much more richer and comfortable than him and still not giving up politics. Being a rich man in politics doesn't suddenly make you a saint. Secondly, nobody has said that Imran Khan is after money, he is after the pm seat because he is a megalomaniac with a massive ego who wants adulation.

Bs. He wants to be pm because like many of us with integrity, he is sick to his stomach of criminals raping the country dry and taking it to the brink of being a failed state - all without accountability because of support from the bottom feeders sucking crumbs from the floor beneath the sharif zardari table, who care more for their black immoral wealth than they do the fate of the nation, or any sense of morality.

 

[Waseem]

Bs. He wants to be pm because like many of us with integrity, he is sick to his stomach of criminals raping the country dry and taking it to the brink of being a failed state - all without accountability because of support from the bottom feeders sucking crumbs from the floor beneath the sharif zardari table, who care more for their black immoral wealth than they do the fate of the nation, or any sense of morality.

Take Quaid e Azam's example (THIS IS NOT A COMPARISON), he was called power hungry by his opponents when he had everything in life which he sacrificed and instead of spending comfortable life he decided to struggle FOR people based on his experiences. Almost every Indian i have discussed this issue with made same remark hat Jinnah was power hungry but the fact is he had absolutely no desire for power, money, fame or anything. If after 20 years in politics, Imran Khan's track record doesn't prove that he he has no desire for money, cheap fame and power then NOTIHNG WILL EVER CONVINCE SUCH PEOPLE.
His political approach can surely be questioned but not his motive for joining politics.

 

[zimmz]

Ermmm, yes. Said motive would be to keep them from attacking the place where they get their votes and in case you missed it, the attacks really did stop.

True the motive is selfish hence why no comparison with IK who's motive is not for gaining votes but to brain peace in general to Pakistan. As for "the attacks really did stop" I think you went into hibernation after that statement of Shabaz Sharif else you wouldn't say that. Although not a topic in hand but just for your information there have been 22 attacks regularly every year in punjab (one in 2016) killing around 500 people after the SS' statement on 15th March 2010 and the first deadly one was within two months.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/Punjab/datasheet/suicideattack.htm

IK asking for a political situation(a masterpiece of wordplay and making an unpalatable proposition look reasonable btw) to TTP is not the sole reason he's a continuation of Zia(again, your words, not mine. Mine would be 'a slightly milder version of Zia). This is one of my main gripes with PTI supporters. They'll pick one issue and go with their if-this-then-that, reducing the whole thing to a binary either-or equation. That's not how things work in real life. PTI continues to use Zia's policy of letting the mullahs decide what's taught in our schools and funding madrassas with alumni lists that read like a who's who of the terrorist world among many, many things.

Ignoring your 'falsafa' about PTI supporters, I think your perception/understanding of IK's politics is just an armchair critic (or knee jerk reaction) influenced by propaganda from self proclaimed liberal print, electronic and social media.

It's in fact you who reduce the notion of extremism and problem of terrorism to either-or equation by thinking that there is no other way of eliminating both except by force. People just don't become extremist or terrorist over night. There is always a history and background with political and social aspects. I won't go into detail about the Psychology (or science) of terrorism. If you are interested you can read a brief article by researchers from a land that is major instigator of extremism in the rest of the world in current times.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/11/terrorism.aspx

Coming back to IK's intention of handling extremism and terrorism, in my opinion there is no better solution for long term. If you care to listen his opinion or check the PTI's policy then you wouldn't be making fun of "funding madrassa with terrorists alumni"...

http://www.dawn.com/news/1266978

Whether PTI/IK achieve anything out of their policy is remained to be seen (hard to implement it across Pakistan without governing at national level). It is interesting that funding of madrassa for reforms is part of National Action Plan of which all parties including military is stake holder, yet it is only IK who is taliban khan and is power hungry.

For the same reason that Nawaz Sharif and Zardari keep looting money even though they have billions of dollars. No amount of money will satiate their greed and no amount of fame and adulation will satiate Imran's ego.

...and you saw this hunger for power only because IK being opposition raises issues against gov, does protest and sit-ins? Or do you have any real evidence of his hunger? Was he power hungry between 1996 and 2013? If yes how?

 

[endymion248]

You are totally off the mark there my friend, we weren't comparing Imran's wealth with Nawaz/Zardari.
The issue in discussion is "HUNGER FOR POWER". You can read my post again, i don't have to repeat myself.

Yes, the discussion is about the fact that Imran Khan is power hungry. And the argument you have presented against it is that ''Imran is wealthy and famous, hence can't be power hungry''. Which is frankly nonsense and a complete non-sequitur.

 

[uberkoen]

As I said you are master of false equivalence

If for one moment you think that the scale is similar then only Allah can help you

Bro, I mentioned earlier as well. That whether you are swindling away millions or whether its a few thousand. Corruption is corruption. The fact that Imran didn't declare his England based assets on his tax returns until amnesty was provided proves what he was doing earlier was illegal and corrupt. The fact that he admits to owning offshore companies to avoid UK tax also shows the same thing.

I've said this a million times and I say will say it again. I don't consider Imran to be Mr. Clean as he is portrayed. Yes, in the regard, he is much much better than Nawaz without a doubt as Nawaz has swindled the country for millions.

However, my problem with Imran has more to do with his political stance and the policies that he presents. I do not see myself aligning with his political view nor do I completely align with the political view of PML-N. However, there is a lack of better options available unfortunately.

Personally speaking, in terms of voting based purely on political stance of a party I'd go with PPP. However, the only reason I wouldn't vote for them now is because of the fact that they are run by incompetent people who have sabotaged the party and have put forth their own agenda's completely forgetting what the party stands for.

Why do I support Nawaz? Because I believe his economic policies are sound and the drive towards industrialization and modernization is something that we need. I support his infrastructure projects because I consider these to be absolutely crucial for the development of Pakistan. However, there are several areas where his party and their policies are horribly poor but as mentioned earlier unfortunately we currently do not have anyone better and rather than have a military dictatorship takeover I would prefer a political setup as I believe in democracy.

I think as democracy matures and people start understanding their strength we will go down the right path eventually. I think the Nawaz regime is a necessary punch that we have to take to better understand how democracy works and I hope in the future we have more competent leaders standing up for election and our people vote for these people.

 

[Mamoon]

No sorry you did not answer the question, i didn't talk about Imran's approach. We can all agree or disagree on the approach but you did not explain the reason of his EXTREME hunger for power. What could be the motive?

As for his marriage, it was purely due to his wife wanting to move back to UK. I don't really understand what sort of compromise could Imran have made? He decided to continue to struggle by refusing to move out to save his marriage, live a luxurious and respectful life with most important assets (his 2 sons). What kind of hunger of power is more important than all that? Do you doubt for a second that he would have lived MUCH MUCH better life in UK with his wife and kids?

I am sorry but your "Imran's extreme hunger for power" theory has absolutely no weight, your only argument is Imran's approach to politics which is fair argument but when i am told that our best politicians are Asif Zardari, Nawaz Sharif, Maulana Fazl ur Rehman, Ch Shujaat then there must be something EXTREMELY wrong with our Pakistani definition of good politician?

By asking this question, you are actually admitting that you don't know what a power hungry person is and how he/she operates.

A power hungry person is not power hungry because he has been deprived from power all his life; he is power hungry because he has an absurd obsession with authority and wants it at all costs in all facets of life.

Imran's whole life shows that. He has always wanted to be the leader and is never comfortable when he is working under someone else.

Why do you think Nawaz still has the desire of being the PM when he has had two stints as PM already, and has looted the country enough to be set for multiple generations?

Why do you think there have been various dictators in history who have ruled tyrannically for 30-40 years but didn't get satisfied?

Just because Imran has had a lot of privileges in his life is no reason why he cannot have such tendencies. In fact, the fact that he has enjoyed authority all his life is precisely the reason why he cannot accept someone else's authority in the field of politics.

On a lighter note, have you ever met a retired PAK Army General? Most of them still try to act like generals in their retired life and try to boss people around, simply because they are so used to that environment and cannot accept that they are not in a position of authority anymore.

What do you mean by living a better life? It is not about living a better and a more comfortable life, it is about having authority and power.

What would Imran be today if he would have moved to the UK after retiring from cricket and settled there? He would have been just a regular ex-cricketer today. No one will care about him.

But today, he is a leader who is followed by millions and considered as the savior of the nation. For a person who thrives authority, this life is far better than living like a common joe.

 

[Mamoon]

Lol. First you say you don't want to dwell on his marriage but then you bring it up anyways. Then you go on to speculate as to why it failed and how his marriage falling apart points to a character flaw which sets him back in his political career. So this was you not dwelling on it....

Anyways on another note. What will be the event which breaks the straw off the camels back for you in regards to Nawaz shareef? At what point will you take pause and not try to indulge in false equivalency and try to lessen Nawaz sharifs crimes by bringing on at times irrelevant and definitely smaller faults of Imran Khan and PTI?

I didn't want to focus on his marriage and personal life etc. because some people end up getting offended. However, what am I supposed to do when Waseem brought it up? He forced me to comment on it.

Look, there is no need of trying to make him a hero for divorcing Jemima. His reason(s) might be noble and he might have sacrificed it for the country but that is what we have been told - it might be true, it might be not.

What actually went down between the two is something we don't know and neither do we need to because it is their personal matter.

However, let's be practical. What will you say about a man or a woman who has been divorced twice? Okay the first time, it wasn't his/her fault and other factors came into play, but what happened the second time around? Isn't it to simplistic and naive to think that he was faultless the second time as well?

It is pretty obvious that Imran is not a compromising person. He has and always wants things to be his way. He has this 'you are with me or you are against me' mentality, and such people always struggle to form successful relationships because in a relationship, both parties are equal; no one is dominant. Imran though always wants to be dominant, and we have seen this in his cricketing career as well as his politics.

However, when you bring these facts up, people get offended. That is why I tend to avoid these topics now unless I am dragged into it.

The straw breaks the camel's back; the straw doesn't break itself.

The camel's back for me is broken already which is why I did not vote for Nawaz in 2013 and have no intentions of voting for him in 2018.

I have and do accept his corruption. I have never said that the Panama charges are false, but that does not mean that I should be blind to Imran's hypocrisy and immature politics.

It is not case of equivalencies (false or not) because Nawaz's crimes are not lessened by Imran's faults and vice versa. We can look at both in isolation.

However, it is the other way round actually. Whenever Imran is criticized for something, the first line of defense usually is that but Nawaz is worse etc. etc., which is simply a very weak defense. His supporters go from Imran is the savior to he is a lesser evil to suit their convenience, which is simply absurd.