PTI's Tsunami March on 14th August [Mega Thread]

[anakin]

Why should I pay Tax, bills and not take bribes when our Representatives have made it clear that this is the easiest way to the top?

It is easier to commit a crime and defend yourself than it is to be a victim and seek justice through courts.

Now, thats how great nations are built and society thrives!!

 

[Vegitto1]

Now, thats how great nations are built and society thrives!!

Great nations are build by honest and sincere leaders not thieves and crooks. If our Representatives are crooks then the message being sent to the masses is that this behaviour is acceptable.

Once you have honest leaders you will have honest citizens

 

[Vegitto1]

In no way, I mean to offend or disrespect anyone here.

Its seems a bit shameful and seems like begging. No matter how bad your internal politics, you should not demean your institutions in front of Foreign leaders like this.
It shames only your own country.

Thank you for your concern. If you are so worried why don't you take them to wherever you are from

 

[Fastandfurious]

Great nations are build by honest and sincere leaders not thieves and crooks. If our Representatives are crooks then the message being sent to the masses is that this behaviour is acceptable.

Once you have honest leaders you will have honest citizens

The leaders come from the citizens, true that a strong leader is required to bring revolution but nothing happens until the people change.

 

[endymion248]

Great nations are build by honest and sincere leaders not thieves and crooks. If our Representatives are crooks then the message being sent to the masses is that this behaviour is acceptable.

Once you have honest leaders you will have honest citizens

No great nation has been built by honest and sincere leaders, a few great nations have been built by thieves and crooks.

 

[Vegitto1]

The leaders come from the citizens, true that a strong leader is required to bring revolution but nothing happens until the people change.

Our Prophet (PBUH) fellow citizens where pagan. Jinnah was head and shoulders above his compatriots - fellow citizens.

People change when they have someone who is from within them and stands out which gives them the courage to take a stand too.

Our people don't have money to eat twice a day and our "leaders" make 70+ dishes for each other from tax-payers money.

How will they inspire people to do good? to change?

All they have achieved is to make shortcuts to success acceptable by any means. The more corrupt you are the higher up you go on the ladder of success i.e. President and Prime Minister

 

[Vegitto1]

No great nation has been built by honest and sincere leaders, a few great nations have been built by thieves and crooks.

What a ridiculous statement

Most Nations have been built by honest and sincere leaders.

The founding fathers of America, Pakistan by Jinnah, India by Nehru - Gandhi etc.

 

[endymion248]

What a ridiculous statement

Most Nations have been built by honest and sincere leaders.

The founding fathers of America, Pakistan by Jinnah, India by Nehru - Gandhi etc.

Founding a nation is much easier than building it.

 

[Vegitto1]

Founding a nation is much easier than building it.

Unless you give examples, we are not getting anywhere with this argument

 

[endymion248]

Unless you give examples, we are not getting anywhere with this argument

I said that no great nation has been built by honest and sincere people. It's easier for you to find one counter-example than it is for me to list all the great nations this world has seen.

 

[WebGuru]

No great nation has been built by honest and sincere leaders, a few great nations have been built by thieves and crooks.

Have you ever heard the name of Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore? or Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia?

 

[Vegitto1]

There you go, WebGuru just gave you a counter-example. I hope now you will stop making statements which are factually incorrect.

 

[Vegitto1]

I said that no great nation has been built by honest and sincere people. It's easier for you to find one counter-example than it is for me to list all the great nations this world has seen.

Give me a list of 5..actually 3 if you can please

Example of Great nations being run by crooked leaders. Thank you

 

[blinding light]

Why should I pay Tax, bills and not take bribes when our Representatives have made it clear that this is the easiest way to the top?

It is easier to commit a crime and defend yourself than it is to be a victim and seek justice through courts.

You should, because it's your moral obligation being a part of a human society to do so.

You should because if you really want to go into the nitty-gritties of moral authority, then "getting to the top" should never be your ultimate goal.

Whilst I agree with the bolded part in essence, I will add that this only comes about once non-payers and bribe-takers make it to the top. Had they observed and conformed to moral values, the justice system would be much better than what it is today.

(I do hope you realise that "you" in this case does not mean you, Vegitto1, personally)

In no way, I mean to offend or disrespect anyone here.

Its seems a bit shameful and seems like begging. No matter how bad your internal politics, you should not demean your institutions in front of Foreign leaders like this.
It shames only your own country.

Agreed.

PTI fans amongst other people as well, need to understand the concept of levels of analysis. In an international community, no one takes into account what party is heading the govt - it's all about the govt of the day and it's standing in the international world. There is nothing wrong with this level of analysis by itself, because it's aim is to measure the scope of governance vis a vis other COUNTRIES, not other parties in power.

Every other country who gives a crap about the region will take PMLN (who DOES form the government of the day) as simply PAKISTAN - irrespective of it's contested legitimacy inside the state.

The state, the govt is the sole unitary actor in this perspective. And harming the govt does mean harming Pakistan itself through these lenses.

We can argue the merits or demerits of this LOA to our hearts content, but it will never change the fact that the intl community only recognises the govt of the day (which happens to be PMLN) as the true representative of the state. Not Qadri or IK, or anyone else for that matter.

Great nations are build by honest and sincere leaders not thieves and crooks. If our Representatives are crooks then the message being sent to the masses is that this behaviour is acceptable.

Once you have honest leaders you will have honest citizens

Disagree. Leadership is a reflection of the society. Honest leaders would only come once we have honest citizens operating the state and promoting a culture of honesty.

Bottom-up, not top-down. All revolutions or societal changed occurring from the top, down to the masses rarely last.

Great nations may be made by honest and sincere leaders, but they never THRIVE if the population itself is corrupt. Over time, the sincerity of the leadership will be diluted as the corrupt citizens, the product of a corrupt/dishonest culture, will have internalised corrupt values to be true (like your argument, except slightly different - "why should I pay my taxes when my neighbour doesn't?" kind of thought process). Eventually, you'll have the same corrupt individuals occupying the top leadership one day - corruption that is fancied and internalised by all.

 

[endymion248]

Have you ever heard the name of Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore? or Mahathir Mohamad of Malayalam?

Have you notified the indians on PP that you broke their country up?

More seriously, I added the ''great'' epithet for a reason. What these gentlemen have done with their nations is great but, from a political point of view, it's almost impossible to achieve the same result without dirty play in bigger nations due to the diversity of interests clashing be it inside or outside the country.

 

[blinding light]

Have you ever heard the name of Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore? or Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia?

No disrespect intended, but can you please also expand upon the nature of their bureaucratic systems? Renters, clientists, or in between?

My view is that bureaucracies are not led by leaders, but by educated reps of the masses themselves.

 

[endymion248]

Give me a list of 5..actually 3 if you can please

Example of Great nations being run by crooked leaders. Thank you

First of all, I didn't say that crooked leaders run great nation but that crooked leaders may lead great nations, the point being that being crooked or not is not all that important on projecting whether some will run the country well or not. However, sincerity and honesty indeed are very important to project that because they almost always correlate with naivety and idiocy. As they say, hell is paved with good intentions.

Anyways, you have the roman republic widely acknowledged as one of the biggest states this world has ever seen. In the same registry, you also have the maritime italian republics during the renaissance. And why not add the current superpower, the united states, for good mesure.

 

[Vegitto1]

You should, because it's your moral obligation being a part of a human society to do so.

You should because if you really want to go into the nitty-gritties of moral authority, then "getting to the top" should never be your ultimate goal.

Whilst I agree with the bolded part in essence, I will add that this only comes about once non-payers and bribe-takers make it to the top. Had they observed and conformed to moral values, the justice system would be much better than what it is today.

(I do hope you realise that "you" in this case does not mean you, Vegitto1, personally)



Agreed.

PTI fans amongst other people as well, need to understand the concept of levels of analysis. In an international community, no one takes into account what party is heading the govt - it's all about the govt of the day and it's standing in the international world. There is nothing wrong with this level of analysis by itself, because it's aim is to measure the scope of governance vis a vis other COUNTRIES, not other parties in power.

Every other country who gives a crap about the region will take PMLN (who DOES form the government of the day) as simply PAKISTAN - irrespective of it's contested legitimacy inside the state.

The state, the govt is the sole unitary actor in this perspective. And harming the govt does mean harming Pakistan itself through these lenses.

We can argue the merits or demerits of this LOA to our hearts content, but it will never change the fact that the intl community only recognises the govt of the day (which happens to be PMLN) as the true representative of the state. Not Qadri or IK, or anyone else for that matter.



Disagree. Leadership is a reflection of the society. Honest leaders would only come once we have honest citizens operating the state and promoting a culture of honesty.

Bottom-up, not top-down. All revolutions or societal changed occurring from the top, down to the masses rarely last.

Great nations may be made by honest and sincere leaders, but they never THRIVE if the population itself is corrupt. Over time, the sincerity of the leadership will be diluted as the corrupt citizens, the product of a corrupt/dishonest culture, will have internalised corrupt values to be true (like your argument, except slightly different - "why should I pay my taxes when my neighbour doesn't?" kind of thought process). Eventually, you'll have the same corrupt individuals occupying the top leadership one day - corruption that is fancied and internalised by all.

1. I agree in theory, however this isn't an argument about ideology it is about ground realities which are that corrupt people are already at the top and they are only allowing their own to replace them. You need someone over and above them to put them in there place. You are mistaken if you think an honest civil judge can take a stand against a corrupt High Court judge in this current system. Actually he can if he has no family and doesn't care if he lives or dies. - And please don't even argue this point because as a Barrister of Lahore High Court, i am speaking from experience having witnessed a lot of disturbing stuff at all levels from FIR stage all the way to trials etc.

2. Exactly! When PPP and PMLN are in power, for the outside world they represent Pakistan. And how proud you must feel when Zardari was President, the whole world knew he had been found guilty of taking commission the Augusta Scandal (French Courts) and found guilty of corruption in Swiss Courts. And how proud do you feel that BBC did a documentary on Nawaz Sharif's money Laundering and that he has cases pending in UK High Courts for loan defaults.

TBH we actually want the WORLD to know that these people do not represent us. We are ashamed of them being Pakistanis.


3. I already answered it earlier. Our Prophet (PBUH) was from a place where his fellow citizens followed a pagan religion.

Furthermore your bottom to top argument is flawed.

PM appoints his secretary - secretary then appoints his supporting staff and so on and so forth. Now if appointments are made on merit from the top then that principle will apply all the way down in most cases.

However in PM appoints his secretary because he happens to be a relative, then what is stopping the secretary to appoint supporting staff from amongst his friends and relatives?

River follows from the top of the mountains all the way down. If the starting point is polluted then it would be foolish to expect clean water at the end!

 

[waqar goraya]

Great nations may be made by honest and sincere leaders, but they never THRIVE if the population itself is corrupt. Over time, the sincerity of the leadership will be diluted as the corrupt citizens, the product of a corrupt/dishonest culture, will have internalized corrupt values to be true

People don't change themselves , there is always a leader/movement who guides and educates them. And thus that leadership thrives and survives by making a mark for itself.

It is an ideal but unrealistic notion that if people transform themselves then leadership will automatically improve. This actually never happens unfortunately.

 

[Vegitto1]

First of all, I didn't say that crooked leaders run great nation but that crooked leaders may lead great nations, the point being that being crooked or not is not all that important on projecting whether some will run the country well or not. However, sincerity and honesty indeed are very important to project that because they almost always correlate with naivety and idiocy. As they say, hell is paved with good intentions.

Anyways, you have the roman republic widely acknowledged as one of the biggest states this world has ever seen. In the same registry, you also have the maritime italian republics during the renaissance. And why not add the current superpower, the united states, for good mesure.

OK please let us stick to modern times and not give examples of nations which no longer exist.

So in your opinion the US has corrupt leaders? Do you know why Richard Nixon was impeached?

 

[WebGuru]

Have you notified the indians on PP that you broke their country up?

More seriously, I added the ''great'' epithet for a reason. What these gentlemen have done with their nations is great but, from a political point of view, it's almost impossible to achieve the same result without dirty play in bigger nations due to the diversity of interests clashing be it inside or outside the country.

No disrespect intended, but can you please also expand upon the nature of their bureaucratic systems? Renters, clientists, or in between?

My view is that bureaucracies are not led by leaders, but by educated reps of the masses themselves.

My reply was to the post that says "No great nation has been built by honest and sincere leaders, a few great nations have been built by thieves and crooks."

ok let's suppose i agree with your point that Singapore or Malaysia are different cases because they are not bigger nations thn lets go back in our own history i mean Islamic History and Islamic State let's talk about Umar ibn Abdul Aziz one of the finest example.

Sorry but it's hard to accept your point that No great nation has been built by honest and sincere leaders,

 

[WebGuru]

While me and and most of the citizens pay all their bills on due date the company of our PM Nawaz Sharif and his brother Shehbaz Sharif is doing civil nafermani by not paying the bill from last 103 months (more thn 8 years)

Here is the screenshot and you can see it online at LESCO website too http://www.lesco.gov.pk/news&media/5000071.asp

 

[Vegitto1]

While me and and most of the citizens pay all their bills on due date the company of our PM Nawaz Shareef and his brother Shehbaz Sharif is doing civil na fermani by not paying the bill from last 103 months (more thn 8 years)

Here is the screenshot and anyone can see it online at LESCO websitehttp://www.lesco.gov.pk/news&media/5000071.asp

Well according to some "If we become good and law abiding citizens, all these defaulters will pay their dues, it's because of us that they are not paying"

 

[endymion248]

OK please let us stick to modern times and not give examples of nations which no longer exist.

So in your opinion the US has corrupt leaders? Do you know why Richard Nixon was impeached?

Why not? It's much easier to be objective on nations that don't exist anymore than ones that do, one of the reasons for this being that we have an indiscriminate access to their records. I never said I would give examples of current states only.

As for the US, not all forms of corruption result in the beneficiary getting richer. The us campaign financing and lobbying system would qualify as a form of morally grey area, the point being that no honest/patriotic/idealist leader could get through it, partly because they wouldn't want to be part of it, partly because being honest/patriotic/idealist already denotes that you don't have the skill to navigate through it even if you wanted to (kind of like PTI poaching all the has-been and inept electables they could find).

 

[KarachiKing]

Bottom-up, not top-down. All revolutions or societal changed occurring from the top, down to the masses rarely last.

Strongly disagree with this uninformed statement.

 

[anakin]

Give me a list of 5..actually 3 if you can please

Example of Great nations being run by crooked leaders. Thank you

the Great Roman Empire.. "Pax Romana" leader Augustus Ceaser,
The Nazi Empire... Hitler... short lived but it was glorious in its own ways
Indira Gandhi... crooked yes... but laid a lot foundations on which India is progressing today
The French empire... Napoleon
Soviet Union... Stalin, Nikita khurshchev
China.... Mao, Den Xiaoping
Russia... Vladmir Putin
USA.... an endless list of crooked Presidents barring a rare few
FIFA.. Sepp Blatter .. (its too huge to ignore)


Leaders all around the world are humans and none are ever ever Saints.

The point is respect of the nation in front of the world, you dont earn it by dissing your own leaders(someone elected them) in front of the world.

Here is the case of Manmohan Singh, a man who never won an election, becomes the PM of the largest democracy.
Internally, the opposition did question his stature, and called him weak. but I dont think ever did they ask a foreign power to diss him for that.

Modi, has his opponents, but no one from the opposition is going to ask any foreign power to dismiss him away.
and its because of the office he represents.

 

[WebGuru]

Well according to some "If we become good and law abiding citizens, all these defaulters will pay their dues, it's because of us that they are not paying"

And the connection is still remain active after 103 months or WAPDA waale mere ghar pohanch jaate hen ager dusre maheene bill na doon

 

[Vegitto1]

Today, MNA Afzal Khokar and his guards assaulted workers of a garments factory because they did not give way to his convoy.

Please can you also tell them that it is their fault, it is because Pakistani society is corrupt that is why their representative is allowed to beat them up and when the police came at the scene it also told the workers to go away and no FIR registered.

 

[WebGuru]

Today, MNA Afzal Khokar and his guards assaulted workers of a garments factory because they did not give way to his convoy.

Please can you also tell them that it is their fault, it is because Pakistani society is corrupt that is why their representative is allowed to beat them up and when the police came at the scene it also told the workers to go away and no FIR registered.

A guy from my area had to pay 80,000 rupees to a Govt MNA to get a 12,000 rupees job in TMA (tube-well operator job). Jobs are on sale here! 80,000 to 1 Lac rupees for these type jobs. And the amount increase if you want a better job...

 

[Vegitto1]

the Great Roman Empire.. "Pax Romana" leader Augustus Ceaser,
The Nazi Empire... Hitler... short lived but it was glorious in its own ways
Indira Gandhi... crooked yes... but laid a lot foundations on which India is progressing today
The French empire... Napoleon
Soviet Union... Stalin, Nikita khurshchev
China.... Mao, Den Xiaoping
Russia... Vladmir Putin
USA.... an endless list of crooked Presidents barring a rare few
FIFA.. Sepp Blatter .. (its too huge to ignore)


Leaders all around the world are humans and none are ever ever Saints.

The point is respect of the nation in front of the world, you dont earn it by dissing your own leaders(someone elected them) in front of the world.

Here is the case of Manmohan Singh, a man who never won an election, becomes the PM of the largest democracy.
Internally, the opposition did question his stature, and called him weak. but I dont think ever did they ask a foreign power to diss him for that.

Modi, has his opponents, but no one from the opposition is going to ask any foreign power to dismiss him away.
and its because of the office he represents.

Ok, firstly we are not doing classical civilisation so please refrain from giving examples of nations which no longer exist.

In relation to Mao "post-Mao China has experienced unprecedented levels of corruption" Also I would like to request you to give examples which are closely related to the current scenario.

Pakistan is a democratic country where a government is elected. It is not a dictatorship or an Empire. By giving examples of communist or totalitarian states are you trying to suggest that those method of governance are acceptable?

Now the only democratic country in that list is USA. Again I ask you like I asked a previous poster, are you familiar with Watergate and its after effects?

 

[Vegitto1]

A guy from my area had to pay 80,000 rupees to a Govt MNA to get a 12,000 rupees job in TMA (tube-well operator job). Jobs are on sale here! 80,000 to 1 Lac rupees for these type jobs. And the amount increase if you want a better job...

Exactly. The head is rotten and the whole body is suffering for it.

 

[endymion248]

A guy from my area had to pay 80,000 rupees to a Govt MNA to get a 12,000 rupees job in TMA (tube-well operator job). Jobs are on sale here! 80,000 to 1 Lac rupees for these type jobs. And the amount increase if you want a better job...

One of my cousins isn't even BA-passed and he became the chief of police (is it DSP?) for his city because we are in our mna's bradery.

 

[anakin]

Ok, firstly we are not doing classical civilisation so please refrain from giving examples of nations which no longer exist.

In relation to Mao "post-Mao China has experienced unprecedented levels of corruption" Also I would like to request you to give examples which are closely related to the current scenario.

Pakistan is a democratic country where a government is elected. It is not a dictatorship or an Empire. By giving examples of communist or totalitarian states are you trying to suggest that those method of governance are acceptable?

Now the only democratic country in that list is USA. Again I ask you like I asked a previous poster, are you familiar with Watergate and its after effects?

and plz define great Nation... since you want it to be so so specific

PS: India is a democracy, (maybe not great in your views )

and i would like you not to ignore my comparison of Manmohan/ modi in India to Pakistani leaders. and how people react to them.

 

[Saeed]

One of my cousins isn't even BA-passed and he became the chief of police (is it DSP?) for his city because we are in our mna's bradery.

No wonder you support such system.

 

[waqar goraya]

Pomi Butt naam to suna hi ho ga ?

A bank employee went to him requesting to open an account in his bank. To which butt replied, " account ! yeh koe kaam hai krna wala, koe banda dhamkana ya unthana ha to btao ....."

This democratic system needs some reforms. Unfortunately every party has these sorts of gentlemen yep, also PTI although fewer than N league.

 

[endymion248]

No wonder you support such system.

Heraangi ki baat hay kay voh MNA PTI ka hi hay.

 

[Vegitto1]

and plz define great Nation... since you want it to be so so specific

PS: India is a democracy, (maybe not great in your views )

I am glad that you gave India's example because it is the closest that you can get in terms of leadership comparison.

India has had crooked politicians and still does no doubt however the reason India is ahead of Pakistan is due to two reasons.

1. it managed to achieve the most basic and fundamental principle of democracy. Separation of Power and check and balances. to a much greater extent than Pakistan.

2. Self sustaining economy. Large countries always have this advantage. Why did BCCI become the richest cricket board? because it had 2 billion people to buy its merchandise within India itself.

Why is bollywood so successful? An audience of 2 billion right at home. etc.

So India is not a great nation, but it is on the right path with Modi in power- even though I hate the man, but that means he is good for India

 

[waqar goraya]

One of my cousins isn't even BA-passed and he became the chief of police (is it DSP?) for his city because we are in our mna's bradery.

Can you tell the name ?

Of course not of your cousin.

 

[WebGuru]

One of my cousins isn't even BA-passed and he became the chief of police (is it DSP?) for his city because we are in our mna's bradery.

Maybe he is SHO (Station House Officer) or DPO (District Police Officer). This really hurts when i see talented guys with degrees in theirs hands on roads. Not a victim of this Govt but there was a Guy in our area i still remember him like yesterday he did MSc in 90s but got no sifarish to get a job and in the end now he is spending rest of his life in a mental hospital.

 

[Vegitto1]

Heraangi ki baat hay kay voh MNA PTI ka hi hay.

Whether he is PTI or PMLN or PPP it does not matter. He should be thrown in jail. You think for us its about PTI vs the Rest? No, it is about Pakistanis vs. Corruption!

 

[Vegitto1]

and plz define great Nation... since you want it to be so so specific

PS: India is a democracy, (maybe not great in your views )

and i would like you not to ignore my comparison of Manmohan/ modi in India to Pakistani leaders. and how people react to them.

Btw, UK is pretty good example of a great nation

 

[blinding light]

Pomi Butt naam to suna hi ho ga ?

A bank employee went to him requesting to open an account in his bank. To which butt replied, " account ! yeh koe kaam hai krna wala, koe banda dhamkana ya unthana ha to btao ....."

This democratic system needs some reforms. Unfortunately every party has these sorts of gentlemen yep, also PTI although fewer than N league.

I'm on a deadline to complete an article after which i'll be travelling, so I won't be replying in detail to other posters for a while.. But I had to thank you for sharing those articles on the previous page. They were well worth the read!

 

[WebGuru]

Heraangi ki baat hay kay voh MNA PTI ka hi hay.

But PTI came in power last year? Jo marzi kerle banda aik dam se SHO ya DPO nae ban skta so wo banda pehle se Police main hoga haan yeh ho skta hai ke is MNA ki sifarish per promote hogaya ho. But still that MNA should be punished even if he is SMQ

 

[Saeed]

Heraangi ki baat hay kay voh MNA PTI ka hi hay.

Are they not part or product of this system? Oh... Ghreebho ka haaq marna pakistan ko tareeqi ki teref lay kay jai gaa, right?

 

[endymion248]

Can you tell the name ?

Of course not of your cousin.

I can PM it to you if you want but I won't say it here.

 

[endymion248]

Maybe he is SHO (Station House Officer) or DPO (District Police Officer). This really hurts when i see talented guys with degrees in theirs hands on roads. Not a victim of this Govt but there was a Guy in our area i still remember him like yesterday he did MSc in 90s but got no sifarish to get a job and in the end now he is spending rest of his life in a mental hospital.

And these people are of course not competent. In my example, the cousin spends most of his time outside the office or having non-work related guests. At least he doesn't take any bribes (except for sifarish, of course).

 

[endymion248]

Are they not part or product of this system? Oh... Ghreebho ka haaq marna pakistan ko tareeqi ki teref lay kay jai gaa, right?

Tareeqi? I guess so.

 

[waqar goraya]

I'm on a deadline to complete an article after which i'll be travelling, so I won't be replying in detail to other posters for a while.. But I had to thank you for sharing those articles on the previous page. They were well worth the read!

Honor is mine !

Being a regular reader i can always sense the quality.

 

[anakin]

I am glad that you gave India's example because it is the closest that you can get in terms of leadership comparison.

India has had crooked politicians and still does no doubt however the reason India is ahead of Pakistan is due to two reasons.

1. it managed to achieve the most basic and fundamental principle of democracy. Separation of Power and check and balances. to a much greater extent than Pakistan.

1. Its 1.2 Billion .. not 2... we are over populated already

Now Serious stuff, How did India achieve that... it was for the respect of its democratic institutions no matter how corrupt they were.
Indira Gandhi abused her power in 1975 by implementing Emergency, people did protest there loss of rights ( Mind you, Sharrif hasn't imposed emergency in Paksitan).
then in 1977 People heavily voted Indira Gandhi out of power... it was a democratic change. A stable change.
A respected change.

PTI is simply holding the entire Pakistan hostage to its demands.

What I notice is that Pakistani mindset is so blinded by grandeur of Revolutions, rebel attitudes that there is hardly any respect for process or trust in them.

Pakistan is an independent sovereign democratic Republic. You do not need to disable the machinery of the country like Gandhi, Mandela did (they fought these very rights ensured by democracy).

2. Pakistan went backwards from the era of Zia....
and thats why its suffering. plz. dont go into the mode that.." Oh we are a small country"(180 million people are small!!! ask the Europeans),

PS: Plz ignore my opinion here below, as it might very well derail the topic
main problem for Pakistan is to define its own identity as anti-India (everything in India as wrong)
this got embedded in Pakistani mindset after 71 war and Zia's islamization of everything.

 

[waqar goraya]

I can PM it to you if you want but I won't say it here.

Yes, it would be appreciated and appreciable.

BTW, my guess is Ghulam Sarwar.

 

[godzilla]

How do the supporters of the incumbent government explain this?

http://tribune.com.pk/story/760662/...lity-of-nawazs-properties-investments-abroad/

 

[anakin]

Defending the Constitution: ‘Confronting Parliament is like taking on the country’
PESHAWAR:

Opposition leader in the National Assembly Khurshid Shah asserted political parties were protecting democracy and the Constitution, not Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. Khurshid was referring to the deadlock between the Centre and Imran Khan and Tahirul Qadri, the respective leaders of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf and Pakistan Awami Tehreek.

Speaking to reporters at the residence of PPP leader Syed Zahir Ali Shah on Wednesday after a meeting with a Waziristan jirga, Khurshid likened a conflict with the Parliament to a confrontation with a nation of 180 million people.

“Members of Parliament represent the people of the country,” said Khurshid.

He said it was crucial to defend the country’s democratic system, parliament as well as the media.

The PPP MNA also asked Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif to take note of the fact that the army was being dragged into politics. This was giving the institution a bad name, said Khurshid.

He pointed out the proper way to remove the prime minister was to move a no-confidence motion against him in the National Assembly. “Sit-ins are not the answer,” he stressed. “If the federal government can be removed by a smattering of 7,000-8,000 people, any party can send governments packing.”

The leader of the opposition stated the country could not survive without the 1973 Constitution. He added seasoned lawmakers drafted the document together, but today’s politicians are not even willing to sit down and discuss each other’s points of view.

Khurshid said the first peaceful transition of power to another democratically-elected government took place under the PPP tenure.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/760690/...ing-parliament-is-like-taking-on-the-country/

 

[ehjaz]

What was PMNL's symbol in election?

 

[Nostalgic]

What was PMNL's symbol in election?

Bald kitten. Think Siamese, only fatter.

 

[ehjaz]

Sher khan @ its best >>

[utube]sVy5BxbB50I[/utube]

 

[KarachiKing]

Sher khan @ its best >>

[utube]sVy5BxbB50I[/utube]

Wow that is embarassing

 

[Nostalgic]

^ We've read of Potemkin villages. This is a Potemkin relief camp.

 

[Varun]

So India is not a great nation, but it is on the right path with Modi in power- even though I hate the man, but that means he is good for India

As far as I can tell, this Modi hasn't done anything to ruffle up Pakistans, Pakistanis or the Pakistan military in his rule thus far. If only you spent half the effort you do on hating Modi or Israel on issues within your own borders and among your own people, you'd be much better off.

 

[Vegitto1]

As far as I can tell, this Modi hasn't done anything to ruffle up Pakistans, Pakistanis or the Pakistan military in his rule thus far. If only you spent half the effort you do on hating Modi or Israel on issues within your own borders and among your own people, you'd be much better off.

Listen, I hate Tendulkar too - He is a great batsman, a great human being but he is the opposition. My hate isn't something that would make me want to kill him etc. It is a form of appreciation. I would have been over the moon had Tendulkar been Pakistani. That is not to say when I see him I won't ask for his autograph.

It is a complicated concept but sometimes hate can be a compliment as well

 

[Fallen King]

Sharif's ouster could trigger democracy-related US sanctions against Pak: Report

Islamabad: Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's ouster through illegal means could trigger another round of democracy-related US sanctions against Pakistan, according to a report. A congressional reported titled 'Pakistan Political Unrest' warns that "any overt military ouster" of Sharif "could trigger another round of democracy-related US sanctions on foreign assistance to Pakistan", the Dawn said on Wednesday.

This could put "an indefinite halt to what has been one of the highest-priority American aid programmes since 9/11."

The report also warns that the ongoing political crisis could impact Pakistan's relations with India by increasing the powerful army's influence in foreign policies, the paper said.

The "Army's more openly direct control of Pakistan's foreign and security policies may, over time, shift Pakistan's approach towards Afghanistan further into a policy framework that seeks to counter Indian influence there," warns the report prepared by the Congressional Research Service (CRS).

The report notes that while the Sharif government does not face an imminent ouster, "many observers see the current unrest weakening Sharif".

It also represents "a setback to democratisation in a country that has suffered three outright military coups in its 67 years of independence".

The report informs US lawmakers that despite the protest, Pakistan is unlikely to change its foreign or security policies that are of interest to the United States.

The unrest could "present new challenges to the goal of improving India-Pakistan relations, and put a damper on hopes for effective regional cooperation and commerce in South Asia," said author Alan Kronstadt, CRS specialist in South Asian affairs.

"Whether Sharif sought out or merely acceded to the army's late August intervention as a facilitator between the government and the protesters, most analysts contend that because he has not demonstrated civilian control over domestic security he will be left in a weakened state," the report says.

CRS warns that the army's involvement could have negative implications for US efforts to strengthen Pakistan’s democratic governance institutions as well.

"Observers doubt, however, that the army would seek to take direct control of the government, not least as it is embroiled in offensive operations against Islamist militants in western tribal areas," the report says.

The army, however, might welcome "a soft coup in which popular support for the civilian government is reduced such that the army can take full control of foreign and security policies".

The report came in the wake of nearly a month-long protest by Tehreek-i-Insaf chief Imran Khan and Awami Tehreek head Tahir-ul Qadri demanding Sharif's ouster.

Khan wants Sharif's ouster over alleged rigging in last year's poll which his party lost, while Qadri wants to bring a revolution in the country.

Both the leaders are agitating since August 14. At least three people have been killed and over 550 injured during the protests.

PTI

http://www.firstpost.com/world/shar...-related-us-sanctions-pak-report-1705775.html

^ Awlia Allah did foretold about Pakistan facing sanction in the future that could cripple Pakistan's economy. I guess we are not that far off, Allahu Alim.

 

[Fallen King]

As far as I can tell, this Modi hasn't done anything to ruffle up Pakistans, Pakistanis or the Pakistan military in his rule thus far. If only you spent half the effort you do on hating Modi or Israel on issues within your own borders and among your own people, you'd be much better off.

I guess Pakistani could use distraction. Otherwise, fully attention towards Pakistan [through Azadi march] tend to make Pakistan suffer the most.

 

[Varun]

Listen, I hate Tendulkar too - He is a great batsman, a great human being but he is the opposition. My hate isn't something that would make me want to kill him etc. It is a form of appreciation. I would have been over the moon had Tendulkar been Pakistani. That is not to say when I see him I won't ask for his autograph.

It is a complicated concept but sometimes hate can be a compliment as well

Fair enough.

 

[Vegitto1]

Sharif's ouster could trigger democracy-related US sanctions against Pak: Report

Islamabad: Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's ouster through illegal means could trigger another round of democracy-related US sanctions against Pakistan, according to a report. A congressional reported titled 'Pakistan Political Unrest' warns that "any overt military ouster" of Sharif "could trigger another round of democracy-related US sanctions on foreign assistance to Pakistan", the Dawn said on Wednesday.

This could put "an indefinite halt to what has been one of the highest-priority American aid programmes since 9/11."

The report also warns that the ongoing political crisis could impact Pakistan's relations with India by increasing the powerful army's influence in foreign policies, the paper said.

The "Army's more openly direct control of Pakistan's foreign and security policies may, over time, shift Pakistan's approach towards Afghanistan further into a policy framework that seeks to counter Indian influence there," warns the report prepared by the Congressional Research Service (CRS).

The report notes that while the Sharif government does not face an imminent ouster, "many observers see the current unrest weakening Sharif".

It also represents "a setback to democratisation in a country that has suffered three outright military coups in its 67 years of independence".

The report informs US lawmakers that despite the protest, Pakistan is unlikely to change its foreign or security policies that are of interest to the United States.

The unrest could "present new challenges to the goal of improving India-Pakistan relations, and put a damper on hopes for effective regional cooperation and commerce in South Asia," said author Alan Kronstadt, CRS specialist in South Asian affairs.

"Whether Sharif sought out or merely acceded to the army's late August intervention as a facilitator between the government and the protesters, most analysts contend that because he has not demonstrated civilian control over domestic security he will be left in a weakened state," the report says.

CRS warns that the army's involvement could have negative implications for US efforts to strengthen Pakistan’s democratic governance institutions as well.

"Observers doubt, however, that the army would seek to take direct control of the government, not least as it is embroiled in offensive operations against Islamist militants in western tribal areas," the report says.

The army, however, might welcome "a soft coup in which popular support for the civilian government is reduced such that the army can take full control of foreign and security policies".

The report came in the wake of nearly a month-long protest by Tehreek-i-Insaf chief Imran Khan and Awami Tehreek head Tahir-ul Qadri demanding Sharif's ouster.

Khan wants Sharif's ouster over alleged rigging in last year's poll which his party lost, while Qadri wants to bring a revolution in the country.

Both the leaders are agitating since August 14. At least three people have been killed and over 550 injured during the protests.

PTI

http://www.firstpost.com/world/shar...-related-us-sanctions-pak-report-1705775.html

^ Awlia Allah did foretold about Pakistan facing sanction in the future that could cripple Pakistan's economy. I guess we are not that far off, Allahu Alim.

Firstly, you used religion again at the end of your post.

Secondly, the bolded parts should make it clear that all US wants is a puppet government in Pakistan which puts US interests before Pakistan Interests.

 

[WebGuru]

Kya yeh banda be burger hai?

<iframe frameborder="0" width="480" height="270" src="//www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x25piy0" allowfullscreen></iframe>​

 

[WebGuru]

Naji sahab finally getting back on track...

 

[DHONI183]

Defending the Constitution: ‘Confronting Parliament is like taking on the country’
PESHAWAR:

Opposition leader in the National Assembly Khurshid Shah asserted political parties were protecting democracy and the Constitution, not Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. Khurshid was referring to the deadlock between the Centre and Imran Khan and Tahirul Qadri, the respective leaders of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf and Pakistan Awami Tehreek.

Speaking to reporters at the residence of PPP leader Syed Zahir Ali Shah on Wednesday after a meeting with a Waziristan jirga, Khurshid likened a conflict with the Parliament to a confrontation with a nation of 180 million people.

“Members of Parliament represent the people of the country,” said Khurshid.

He said it was crucial to defend the country’s democratic system, parliament as well as the media.

The PPP MNA also asked Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif to take note of the fact that the army was being dragged into politics. This was giving the institution a bad name, said Khurshid.

He pointed out the proper way to remove the prime minister was to move a no-confidence motion against him in the National Assembly. “Sit-ins are not the answer,” he stressed. “If the federal government can be removed by a smattering of 7,000-8,000 people, any party can send governments packing.”

The leader of the opposition stated the country could not survive without the 1973 Constitution. He added seasoned lawmakers drafted the document together, but today’s politicians are not even willing to sit down and discuss each other’s points of view.

Khurshid said the first peaceful transition of power to another democratically-elected government took place under the PPP tenure.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/760690/...ing-parliament-is-like-taking-on-the-country/

These are exactly the sort of words that propposition leader Khurshid Shah utters in every other speech in the parliament. Word to word!

Sher khan @ its best >>

[utube]sVy5BxbB50I[/utube]

Well, I had known about the bit about empty deygey´n as I heard it in the news the other day, but that bit about the female shocked me!

 

[Fallen King]

Firstly, you used religion again at the end of your post.

Secondly, the bolded parts should make it clear that all US wants is a puppet government in Pakistan which puts US interests before Pakistan Interests.

That's not even close to it. You are desperate to link this to religion. I suggest you stop this now. There is nothing wrong to apologize for grave allegation and move on instead of desperately trying to link to religion to prove yourself not-liar.

 

[Kianig89]

Proud Of you a true leader fighting it out for the masses IA the weekend starts tomorrow so plenty of people will come "tabdeeli aa nae gai, tabdeeli aa gai ha"

 

[Kianig89]

Also its shocking that still plenty of educated person still support CTBT n have faith in them please have mercy on this nation 300 unit k baad bijli 18 rupee unit ha also they are taking 37.50 Rs. Surcharge for Neelam Jhelum project which was supposed to complete in 1986

 

[Noora420]

Azad Kashmir flood victims chant Go-Nawaz-Go during his highness' address.

http://urdu.dawn.com/news/1009473/

Even though patwaries tried hard to counter that with Go-Imran-Go, but embarrassment caused by that initial strike was so obvious in Sir Nawaz's voice.

 

[Noora420]

Khawaja Saad wali ho gai hai aaj toh Nawaz ki...

 

[the Great Khan]

Khawaja Saad wali ho gai hai aaj toh Nawaz ki...

what happened?

 

[WebGuru]

what happened?

Watch the video on this page http://urdu.dawn.com/news/1009473/

 

[the Great Khan]

Watch the video on this page http://urdu.dawn.com/news/1009473/

lol, mian sahib looks like he's about to fall over

 

[WebGuru]

lol, mian sahib looks like he's about to fall over

haha but those little voices of patwaris saying Go Imran Go were funny lol they were trying to save mian sahab face when the real public started Go Nawaz Go chant

 

[AZ]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Shaukat Noor Printers sues Imran Khan ovr allegation ballot papers were printed by the firm. As usual,IK made allegation without ny proof</p>— Murtaza Ali Shah (@MurtazaGeoNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MurtazaGeoNews/status/510062643722194944">September 11, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

the lies - and defamation notices - just keep on piling up, one after the other.

 

[Kianig89]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Shaukat Noor Printers sues Imran Khan ovr allegation ballot papers were printed by the firm. As usual,IK made allegation without ny proof</p>— Murtaza Ali Shah (@MurtazaGeoNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MurtazaGeoNews/status/510062643722194944">September 11, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

the lies - and defamation notices - just keep on piling up, one after the other.

Lol wont be surprised if this Shaukat printers is owned by some "s fellow.

 

[Hawkeye]

Here's another link to the video on Asad Umar's account:

<div id="fb-root"></div> <script>(function(d, s, id) { var js, fjs = d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0]; if (d.getElementById(id)) return; js = d.createElement(s); js.id = id; js.src = "//connect.facebook.net/en_US/all.js#xfbml=1"; fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js, fjs); }(document, 'script', 'facebook-jssdk'));</script>
<div class="fb-post" data-href="https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=723404301030110" data-width="466"><div class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=723404301030110">Post</a> by <a href="https://www.facebook.com/AsadUmar.PTIOfficial">Asad Umar (Official)</a>.</div></div>


) )

Some patwaris trying to save Nawaz by shouting GO Imran Go hahahaha Where should Imran go? is he the PM? )

And then the crowd started shouting:

imran de naray wajjan ge, ganjay sare nassan ge.

 

[Noora420]

go nawaz go

 

[Fastandfurious]

Go Nawaz Go!