"Ramiz Raja has done a great job as PCB chairman": PM Shehbaz Sharif

[Bewal Express]

Yes I will

He can’t be any worse than Babar

You mean Babar that got us to a SF and a final in the T20 WC in 2 years. Ahead of Ind on both occasions. Asif Ali makes even tailenders look good.

 

[Bewal Express]

Yes. I think out of the box like McCullum and Ben Stokes. Guys like me win more than we lose

Yes but they have talent.

 

[Rana]

Yes but they have talent.

And I have my strong belief. It gets me through. It makes me win more than I lose in life Alhamdolillah

 

[Savak]

You mean Babar that got us to a SF and a final in the T20 WC in 2 years. Ahead of Ind on both occasions. Asif Ali makes even tailenders look good.

T-20 Cricket should dictate who your captains should be in the real formats i.e. ODI and Test Cricket. Babar has been badly exposed as a thoroughly incompetent captain in these formats.

 

[Rana]

You mean Babar that got us to a SF and a final in the T20 WC in 2 years. Ahead of Ind on both occasions. Asif Ali makes even tailenders look good.

Babar got to that Semi Final because of Asif Ali saving Pakistan against NZ and Afghanistan

 

[Bewal Express]

Babar got to that Semi Final because of Asif Ali saving Pakistan against NZ and Afghanistan

So Asif plays for Ind and not PK

 

[Bewal Express]

T-20 Cricket should dictate who your captains should be in the real formats i.e. ODI and Test Cricket. Babar has been badly exposed as a thoroughly incompetent captain in these formats.

It's OK saying Babar isn't very good but we have a team with no alternatives. Maybe you can name an alternative

 

[Rana]

So Asif plays for Ind and not PK

Dude. I don’t understand what your issue is with me. I would suggest that you mute me or ignore my existence. If me stating facts and being proven right hurts you then I can’t help it. I don’t state my opinions here to specifically to annoy you.

 

[Bewal Express]

And I have my strong belief. It gets me through. It makes me win more than I lose in life Alhamdolillah

We talking about Cricket, not about your philosophy on life

 

[Rana]

We talking about Cricket, not about your philosophy on life

Ok. Thanks

 

[Bewal Express]

Dude. I don’t understand what your issue is with me. I would suggest that you mute me or ignore my existence. If me stating facts and being proven right hurts you then I can’t help it. I don’t state my opinions here to specifically to annoy you.

I find it difficult not to reply to silly comments like Asif Ali scored the runs. Wasn't that his job

 

[Rana]

I find it difficult not to reply to silly comments like Asif Ali scored the runs. Wasn't that his job

Carry on pal. Your only making yourself look silly here

 

[Savak]

It's OK saying Babar isn't very good but we have a team with no alternatives. Maybe you can name an alternative

Someone else apart from Babar.

 

[Bewal Express]

Someone else apart from Babar.

But that's not an answer. Babar is limited according to both Nas and Athers and they see the whole picture in the ground but at this point in time he is the best option. Things will become clearer after the NZ series.

 

[Bewal Express]

Carry on pal. Your only making yourself look silly here

Really? Then you have nothing to worry about. Maybe next you can tell us that Babar was saved by his bowlers and other pearls of wisdom such as the fielders took the catches etc

 

[Savak]

But that's not an answer. Babar is limited according to both Nas and Athers and they see the whole picture in the ground but at this point in time he is the best option. Things will become clearer after the NZ series.

I don't think the PCB will make any drastic changes so soon given that the NZ series is a week away but let me tell you that NZ will be even tougher for Pakistan because they will play test cricket properly, they are coming with a more potent spin attack and i don't have any confidence in Babar and the team management right now. If Pakistan loses to NZ 2-0, that will be 6 games lost in a row at home. How long will Babar get away with, there are no alternatives right now?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Just waiting for Rameez next bold Bullcrap statement and excuses after series ends tomorrow, Mr motormouth can never keep his mouth shut.

 

[muqarrab]

What is stupid about the FC system?

First, please tell me how it is a better system than the departmental system?

 

[muqarrab]

So you expect to fix problems of a FC system in 3 years. And can you name the players that came through the new system?

Do you know how many different versions of FC system we have tried in the last 20 years, going back to his first stint as ceo in 00s?

 

[Bewal Express]

First, please tell me how it is a better system than the departmental system?

So you have no idea and want me to educate you. I am happy to do that.
For a Start we have accountability. Accountability on selection based mostly on merit( look at UAs complaint on teams being selected on merit, not on reputation). We have had a huge improvement on pitches where batsman are learning to bat in the middle compared to the underprepared poor wickets that stopped the development of our batsman. We have produced one batsman of note in the last 20 years in Babar. These wickets will also make our pacers tougher as they have to have pace or swing to take wickets unlike where club bowlers like Rashid Latif( not the one you are thinking of), Sadaf, Assad Ali, Tabish obliterated batsman on poor wickets.
We have genuine competition between the provinces, did anyone care if the bank beat the water board or who they chose. We have strength playing strength, we had mediocrity playing mediocrity before this. The old system was riddled with corruption with older players like Shoaib Mohammed chosing their sons for years and using the teams as a meal ticket. So tell me what the old system brought to the table

 

[Bewal Express]

Do you know how many different versions of FC system we have tried in the last 20 years, going back to his first stint as ceo in 00s?

And they were all rubbish. This is the 1st FC system that looks like a FC

 

[shah_1]

Just looking of Sethi's twitter timeline, the reports are pretty much confirmed otherwise he wouldn't retweets those journalists tweets.


Ramiz is going to be sacked soon

 

[muqarrab]

So you have no idea and want me to educate you. I am happy to do that.
For a Start we have accountability. Accountability on selection based mostly on merit( look at UAs complaint on teams being selected on merit, not on reputation). We have had a huge improvement on pitches where batsman are learning to bat in the middle compared to the underprepared poor wickets that stopped the development of our batsman. We have produced one batsman of note in the last 20 years in Babar. These wickets will also make our pacers tougher as they have to have pace or swing to take wickets unlike where club bowlers like Rashid Latif( not the one you are thinking of), Sadaf, Assad Ali, Tabish obliterated batsman on poor wickets.


We have genuine competition between the provinces, did anyone care if the bank beat the water board or who they chose. We have strength playing strength, we had mediocrity playing mediocrity before this. The old system was riddled with corruption with older players like Shoaib Mohammed chosing their sons for years and using the teams as a meal ticket. So tell me what the old system brought to the table

First para is full of hypothetics, where are results?

Second para, i've read and heard that before somewhere? Can you guess?

Our talent piepeline didn't have a problem with the pitches we were making and the structure we had, what needed fixing?

 

[muqarrab]

And they were all rubbish. This is the 1st FC system that looks like a FC

How dos this one looks like a FC system?

 

[shamaan]

That is an insult to Southgate who has made a boring England into an exciting England.

Exciting team he plays 2 holding midfielders lol.

 

[shamaan]

I think Wasim and Babar should be sacked first but Ramiz needs to keep his mouth shut.

 

[u0sama]

Ramiz can easily get stay order

 

[shah_1]

Ramiz can easily get stay order

He should resign if he has any shame left.

 

[ex-q-zit]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Message to <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealPCB?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TheRealPCB</a>, we are happy to come and tour Pakistan and lose 3-0, getting chopped up and sugared like marmalade. Just letting you know in the interests of balance. And we will score at 0.7 not 7.0 an over.</p>— Iceland Cricket (@icelandcricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/icelandcricket/status/1604823910008164355?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 19, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Rana]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Message to <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealPCB?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TheRealPCB</a>, we are happy to come and tour Pakistan and lose 3-0, getting chopped up and sugared like marmalade. Just letting you know in the interests of balance. And we will score at 0.7 not 7.0 an over.</p>— Iceland Cricket (@icelandcricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/icelandcricket/status/1604823910008164355?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 19, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is what we need!!

 

[James]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Message to <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealPCB?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TheRealPCB</a>, we are happy to come and tour Pakistan and lose 3-0, getting chopped up and sugared like marmalade. Just letting you know in the interests of balance. And we will score at 0.7 not 7.0 an over.</p>— Iceland Cricket (@icelandcricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/icelandcricket/status/1604823910008164355?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 19, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I have been following this account for some time, whoever runs it is a comedy genius

 

[Bewal Express]

How dos this one looks like a FC system?

For a start we have regions playing each other, I am not sure if you are familiar with how it works in every other country but they too have this amazing system where regions/cities play each other. Those regions are controlled by the board and not owned by Depts.

 

[Bewal Express]

First para is full of hypothetics, where are results?

Second para, i've read and heard that before somewhere? Can you guess?

Our talent piepeline didn't have a problem with the pitches we were making and the structure we had, what needed fixing?

No I can't. Please enlighten me as to where you read it. Post a link.
As far as results are concerned, the players playing today( bar a couple l) came through the system you seemed to advocate. Can you explain why your system produced such poor players?

 

[Mamoon]

Ramiz was getting criticized when Pakistan was losing on flat wickets because apparently, he was negating Pakistan’s strengths buy not producing turners.

Now that Pakistan have had two good wickets with spin & a mystery spinner, they are still getting stuffed & Ramiz is still getting criticized.

As far as regional vs department cricket is concerned, it doesn’t make a difference when your cricket culture & mentality is rotten to the core. There are just excuses.

 

[muqarrab]

For a start we have regions playing each other, I am not sure if you are familiar with how it works in every other country but they too have this amazing system where regions/cities play each other. Those regions are controlled by the board and not owned by Depts.

No I don't know, i do know the system produced players in 80s, 90s and 00s.

 

[muqarrab]

No I can't. Please enlighten me as to where you read it. Post a link.
As far as results are concerned, the players playing today( bar a couple l) came through the system you seemed to advocate. Can you explain why your system produced such poor players?

Poor players? We lost due to mindswet and Rameez insistence on not having a proper support staff around babar.

 

[Saj]

Maybe he meant "Ramiz Raja has done a great job for opposition teams as PCB chairman": PM Shehbaz Sharif

 

[Bewal Express]

Poor players? We lost due to mindswet and Rameez insistence on not having a proper support staff around babar.

No, relative to England they are poor. The mindset and coaches can only do so much. How many of the PK players would get into the England team

 

[Bewal Express]

No I don't know, i do know the system produced players in 80s, 90s and 00s.

The system didn't do anything, it was the Captaincy of IK and the winning mentality he created. He would take someone and cut the gem. The system was an even bigger shambles back in those days. This system needs bedding down with tweaks on wickets that need more bounce. All these players bar a couple are the products of the system you claim is the answer. Nothing was built in a day

 

[insurge]

Sorry to be blunt - those who support the previous FC system simply don't know cricket.

The previous FC system was a disaster. No country in the world probably in any sport has such an artibtrary and nonsensical system. It gives people a way to use connections to get their families and friends into teams and get cushy jobs where they don't have to do any work after retirement. There is no accountability so mediocre past-expiry players still stick around neither is there a path to develop young players.

How are fans supposed to figure out, let alone support, a team formed along these lines? Based on the bank they use? The company that provides their gas? Can you imagine the premier tournament in any country (Australia, India, etc) being something so ridiculous?

Those wanting to revert to the older system are trying to put bandages on a leaking boat. It does not solve the underlying structural challenges. Also those who think the previous system produced cricketers - no, it did not. Actually it was lucky that captains like Imran Khan had an eye for talent and plucked players like Wasim, Waqar and Inzamam without much FC experience, before the FC system could destroy them. These players then sharpened their skills in better FC systems like UK's county leagues. Ever since the number of foreign players in county circuit has declined you can see the quality of Pakistan players also decline. The few benefits that the previous system provides need to be handled by proper and long term solutions: for example pensions for retired players and sponsors for finances.

The new FC system is not perfect, but far better than the previous:

1. Based on cohesive geographical divisions. People can actually recognize which team represents what area and base their support based on that. Each region has incentive to invest and build up the systems in their area to find and nurture the best talent.

2. Each region has a team in two grades where players can move freely. This provides a pathway for youngers to work their way up from U19 to Grade 2 (pretty much all upcoming young players started playing Grade 2 cricket first and then got promoted to Grade 1). It also provides a way for older players to not hog up spots in the Grade 1 team yet still continue to play cricket in Grade 2. This also gives them mentoring opportunities where they can pass their experience on. Look at any grade 2 team and you will see a healthy mix of has-been seniors and young cricketers. The fact Umar Akmal played Grade 2 cricket (not Grade 1) is a concrete example of the system working.

3. Changes to format, such as incentivizing teams to score more aggressively. You can see teams that play modern, bold cricket such as Northern region dominate the new format with youngsters. Not exclusive to this system, but a result of increased accountability.

 

[Rana]

Sorry to be blunt - those who support the previous FC system simply don't know cricket.

The previous FC system was a disaster. No country in the world probably in any sport has such an artibtrary and nonsensical system. It gives people a way to use connections to get their families and friends into teams and get cushy jobs where they don't have to do any work after retirement. There is no accountability so mediocre past-expiry players still stick around neither is there a path to develop young players.

How are fans supposed to figure out, let alone support, a team formed along these lines? Based on the bank they use? The company that provides their gas? Can you imagine the premier tournament in any country (Australia, India, etc) being something so ridiculous?

Those wanting to revert to the older system are trying to put bandages on a leaking boat. It does not solve the underlying structural challenges. Also those who think the previous system produced cricketers - no, it did not. Actually it was lucky that captains like Imran Khan had an eye for talent and plucked players like Wasim, Waqar and Inzamam without much FC experience, before the FC system could destroy them. These players then sharpened their skills in better FC systems like UK's county leagues. Ever since the number of foreign players in county circuit has declined you can see the quality of Pakistan players also decline. The few benefits that the previous system provides need to be handled by proper and long term solutions: for example pensions for retired players and sponsors for finances.

The new FC system is not perfect, but far better than the previous:

1. Based on cohesive geographical divisions. People can actually recognize which team represents what area and base their support based on that. Each region has incentive to invest and build up the systems in their area to find and nurture the best talent.

2. Each region has a team in two grades where players can move freely. This provides a pathway for youngers to work their way up from U19 to Grade 2 (pretty much all upcoming young players started playing Grade 2 cricket first and then got promoted to Grade 1). It also provides a way for older players to not hog up spots in the Grade 1 team yet still continue to play cricket in Grade 2. This also gives them mentoring opportunities where they can pass their experience on. Look at any grade 2 team and you will see a healthy mix of has-been seniors and young cricketers. The fact Umar Akmal played Grade 2 cricket (not Grade 1) is a concrete example of the system working.

3. Changes to format, such as incentivizing teams to score more aggressively. You can see teams that play modern, bold cricket such as Northern region dominate the new format with youngsters. Not exclusive to this system, but a result of increased accountability.

Bhai Jaan

You can’t lose 3-0 like this against England at home and then tell us that the old ways were not working. The old ways were not ideal, but they had some customs that were never compromised

One of those uncompromising customs was to not allow SENA teams to roll you over like the way Australia and England have. We lost 1-0 to Aus, if the tracks were supportive…we would have lost 3-0 in that too.

We are terrible. No cricketer walking in this team has any belief that he can be a hero and make a name for himself by helping Pakistan beat England/Australia on our home deck. If our own players are now going to play with fear at home the way they would play away from home, then you know the system is a failure. Accept it. It’s a failure.

 

[insurge]

Pinning a series loss on a couple years old system is disingenuous. The FC system is not making Babar play a test with 5 bowlers out of which 2 which are so called all-rounders and one part timer and then only bowling one of the all rounders for 1 over in a test match. It is not making Shan Masood reverse sweep into his wickets when he is set in. It is also not causing Shaheen, Naseem and Haris to be injured at the same time, with no proper backups being tried.

Pakistan debuted one proper batsman (Saud Shakeel) this series and he has done very well. Kamran Ghulam was picked in previous series and has been topping charts consistently. The FC system is highlighting standout players, if they are not being picked by the captain/coach or taking years to get into the team it is not a fault of the FC system.

Youngers like Hurraira, Saim Ayub are working their way through the ranks. Abdullah Shafique also played most of his professional cricket in this system (impatient Pak fans think he should be dropped, despite averaging > 60 with 3 hundreds in 9 games). If these players are not given oppportunities or their weaknesses are not being worked on, that is a failure of selector, coaching staff and captain.

Again, those who are blaming the FC system are looking at the wrong place. It is not the cause of the losses here.

If you want to read more on what the underlying causes are, you just need to read this: https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...s-pakistan-s-shortcomings-are-exposed-1350423

 

[muqarrab]

The system didn't do anything, it was the Captaincy of IK and the winning mentality he created. He would take someone and cut the gem. The system was an even bigger shambles back in those days. This system needs bedding down with tweaks on wickets that need more bounce. All these players bar a couple are the products of the system you claim is the answer. Nothing was built in a day

Shoaib, yousaf, younis, misbah, malik, razzaq, afridi, asif, all of these were uncut gems IK found?

 

[Sarwar89]

Countries like Argentina & Pakistan always win at the back of charismatic leadership and fans support plus national adernaline and euphoria. These countries do not rely on their respective boards to lay foundation of success for them.

Partly that was the reason this Pakistan team somehow reached world cup final this year.

Systems in these countries are never top standard to nurture or groom talent. One can replace pcb head but system itself will not change. Finding uncut diamonds and grooming them is not pcb chairman job it is selection committe job. One way of resolving such issues is bringing a foreigner like wasim khan but was he successful. I do not see any big changes in pcb set up, let’s hope they somehow win 2023 odi world cup in india. All this will be forgotten.

 

[Bewal Express]

Shoaib, yousaf, younis, misbah, malik, razzaq, afridi, asif, all of these were uncut gems IK found?

The Australians have produced the Waugh twins, Warne,Mcgrath, Ponting and a million others. Your point shows how little you understand.
So you attributing players that turned out to be good to a system that was corrupt and uncompetitive. It amazes me how little you know.

 

[muqarrab]

The Australians have produced the Waugh twins, Warne,Mcgrath, Ponting and a million others. Your point shows how little you understand.
So you attributing players that turned out to be good to a system that was corrupt and uncompetitive. It amazes me how little you know.

How was 'that' system corrupt and uncompetitive?

Australia has a grade levele system with a pyramid? Which pyramid this distillation of 5 regional team system was relying on?


How many counites participate in english tier system?

How many teams play ranji trophy?

Is the point of system having 5 teams or letting the best play against the best?

 

[Pakpak]

How was 'that' system corrupt and uncompetitive?

Australia has a grade levele system with a pyramid? Which pyramid this distillation of 5 regional team system was relying on?


How many counites participate in english tier system?

How many teams play ranji trophy?

Is the point of system having 5 teams or letting the best play against the best?

Your posts are an embarrassment

The previous system was a disaster which did nothing at all. Most players came through with little to no fc cricket. And it was badly stagnating

It's not the new systems fault that we keep selecting Azhar Ali or playing with nonsensical all rounders. Saud shakeel Abrar proved good players do well

I'll let Bewal deal with this cannot be bothered with people advocating for ridiculous nonsense like Wapda sui gas PIA bakwaas

 

[Bewal Express]

How was 'that' system corrupt and uncompetitive?

Australia has a grade levele system with a pyramid? Which pyramid this distillation of 5 regional team system was relying on?


How many counites participate in english tier system?

How many teams play ranji trophy?

Is the point of system having 5 teams or letting the best play against the best?

Maybe getting some facts from ex players will tell you how corrupt the system was. Can you tell me who chose the players for the depts? Why Sadaf, Assad et Al were World beaters but couldn't take wicket. Any ideas? Tell us why the current players that came through that system bar a couple are so bad?
The Australian system works because they have a system. We had no system, we had random banks playing local water companies. Which system produced the better players?

 

[Bewal Express]

Your posts are an embarrassment

The previous system was a disaster which did nothing at all. Most players came through with little to no fc cricket. And it was badly stagnating

It's not the new systems fault that we keep selecting Azhar Ali or playing with nonsensical all rounders. Saud shakeel Abrar proved good players do well

I'll let Bewal deal with this cannot be bothered with people advocating for ridiculous nonsense like Wapda sui gas PIA bakwaas

So far he can't bring himself to tell us any advantages of the hotch potch of the old system. These guys don't understand even the basics of FC cricket.

 

[muqarrab]

Maybe getting some facts from ex players will tell you how corrupt the system was. Can you tell me who chose the players for the depts? Why Sadaf, Assad et Al were World beaters but couldn't take wicket. Any ideas? Tell us why the current players that came through that system bar a couple are so bad?
The Australian system works because they have a system. We had no system, we had random banks playing local water companies. Which system produced the better players?

Random banks playing local water companies? Where did you get this? You ignore the continuous strem of talent old system produced and named couple of outside examples.

Also, your reply to my corruption questio question is 'maybe getting facts from ex players', i don't have those 'facts', would you care to share those 'facts'?

Could you also tell me pyramid of australian system, and what is proposed pyramid of regional structure? And what pyramid we had in the old systeM?

 

[muqarrab]

Your posts are an embarrassment

The previous system was a disaster which did nothing at all. Most players came through with little to no fc cricket. And it was badly stagnating

It's not the new systems fault that we keep selecting Azhar Ali or playing with nonsensical all rounders. Saud shakeel Abrar proved good players do well

I'll let Bewal deal with this cannot be bothered with people advocating for ridiculous nonsense like Wapda sui gas PIA bakwaas

All of these are general, vague and blanket satements that can not hold up to any serious scrutiny. Also, thats a generous use of labels and adjectives.

Could you be more concrete about why you want the new system?

 

[Rana]

Random banks playing local water companies? Where did you get this? You ignore the continuous strem of talent old system produced and named couple of outside examples.

Also, your reply to my corruption questio question is 'maybe getting facts from ex players', i don't have those 'facts', would you care to share those 'facts'?

Could you also tell me pyramid of australian system, and what is proposed pyramid of regional structure? And what pyramid we had in the old systeM?

Random Banks v Water companies do not have the burden of losing 4 Test matches in a row at home against SENA teams.

Yeh Kalank saari zindagi mitt nahi Sakti

 

[muqarrab]

Random Banks v Water companies do not have the burden of losing 4 Test matches in a row at home against SENA teams.

Yeh Kalank saari zindagi mitt nahi Sakti

Well theres a bit of delusion here, we have a longstanding issue in our domestic cricket BUT we didn't lose this series because our domestic structure is deficient, we lost because of poor selection, planning and captaincy.
This is kidn of like Rameez's defence for pitches in aus and eng series "we don't know how to make pitches", which is patently wrong, we know how to make pitches and we need to man up and accept that we got what we asked for and weren't brave to accept that that is what happened.

 

[Bewal Express]

Random banks playing local water companies? Where did you get this? You ignore the continuous strem of talent old system produced and named couple of outside examples.

Also, your reply to my corruption questio question is 'maybe getting facts from ex players', i don't have those 'facts', would you care to share those 'facts'?

Could you also tell me pyramid of australian system, and what is proposed pyramid of regional structure? And what pyramid we had in the old systeM?

Where did I get them from? The scorecards from Wisden. Lol-Look it up
The steady stream of talent that outside the IK era was never utilised and even then it was IKs personality. You seemed to confusing natural talent with the awful system. Tell me why your system led to the the awful results here? These are not players from the present system, they came through the system that you advocate. So tell me what went wrong? Or are you saying the likes of Sadaf should be in the team?
And what's this about 5 teams, at least get basic facts right. It's embarrassing trying to educate a guy about the number of teams.

 

[Bewal Express]

Random Banks v Water companies do not have the burden of losing 4 Test matches in a row at home against SENA teams.

Yeh Kalank saari zindagi mitt nahi Sakti

You do know we were bowled for 50 twice in test match under the old system. It shows how little you understand. And why are you running from telling why these players came through your system and are so bad. And guess who are the players that developed under the new system. I suppose when want Asif Ali as captain, these sort of questions go over your head

 

[muqarrab]

You do know we were bowled for 50 twice in test match under the old system. It shows how little you understand. And why are you running from telling why these players came through your system and are so bad. And guess who are the players that developed under the new system. I suppose when want Asif Ali as captain, these sort of questions go over your head

Again, bad example, we were bowled out for 50 with a team full of new players against the greatest test side ever. We did win 3 series and drew 1 in eng, won in nz, won in india, drew in SA.

I am not sure which bad players you are talking abt. That system produced miandad, inzi, wasim, waqar, and pretty much every other pakistani great.

Other than you not liking names of treams, what other reason do you see to get rid of old system?

 

[Bewal Express]

Again, bad example, we were bowled out for 50 with a team full of new players against the greatest test side ever. We did win 3 series and drew 1 in eng, won in nz, won in india, drew in SA.

I am not sure which bad players you are talking abt. That system produced miandad, inzi, wasim, waqar, and pretty much every other pakistani great.

Other than you not liking names of treams, what other reason do you see to get rid of old system?

At the moment you are using players as an example of the system working. But nowhere have you stated how the system helped to develop players. Did it provide a competitive environment, if so explain how Banks playing the local curry house provided this. And as you are new to the game and know little or no history Our players of the 70s developed in the county system and that continued into the 80s with the likes of Wasim, Waqar and 90s. And if this system was so good why are the players that are playing today( which are the product of the same system so poor). Your not a politician, so answer the question why are the players that the same system produced so bad. You have no idea what the FC should do and because you dont, you keep running from simple questions.

 

[Rana]

You do know we were bowled for 50 twice in test match under the old system. It shows how little you understand. And why are you running from telling why these players came through your system and are so bad. And guess who are the players that developed under the new system. I suppose when want Asif Ali as captain, these sort of questions go over your head

Ah yes

We were bowled out twice for 50 in Pakistan

Great example

 

[Bewal Express]

Ah yes

We were bowled out twice for 50 in Pakistan

Great example

It was a home test. But why don't you answer why the system you advocate has produced 9 out of the 11 players. Why is that?

 

[muqarrab]

At the moment you are using players as an example of the system working. But nowhere have you stated how the system helped to develop players. Did it provide a competitive environment, if so explain how Banks playing the local curry house provided this. And as you are new to the game and know little or no history Our players of the 70s developed in the county system and that continued into the 80s with the likes of Wasim, Waqar and 90s. And if this system was so good why are the players that are playing today( which are the product of the same system so poor). Your not a politician, so answer the question why are the players that the same system produced so bad. You have no idea what the FC should do and because you dont, you keep running from simple questions.

Do you remember wills cup matches? They were pretty darn competitive. Fawad alam was developed by this system and so was babar azam. How about imam? Shan masood? Shaheen?

How many pakistani's played counties in the 70s? Now you are really cooking up stuff. Even in the 90s, at most we had 5-6 players in the first X playing counties.

You have to tell me which specific players you are talking about when you say they were produced by this system and were/are bad. You took some random names that were selection anomalies, which is pretty frequent, but in no way an indictment on the fc system.

Since you are trying to tell me that you were around in the 70s and 80s, i'd like you to reason like someone of your age. And not regurgitate statements you picked up in some interviews.

 

[Bewal Express]

Do you remember wills cup matches? They were pretty darn competitive. Fawad alam was developed by this system and so was babar azam. How about imam? Shan masood? Shaheen?

How many pakistani's played counties in the 70s? Now you are really cooking up stuff. Even in the 90s, at most we had 5-6 players in the first X playing counties.

You have to tell me which specific players you are talking about when you say they were produced by this system and were/are bad. You took some random names that were selection anomalies, which is pretty frequent, but in no way an indictment on the fc system.

Since you are trying to tell me that you were around in the 70s and 80s, i'd like you to reason like someone of your age. And not regurgitate statements you picked up in some interviews.

Maybe a little research will help you to understand. Let me start with IK,Miandad, Z, Mushtaq, Majid, Sadiq Sarfraz, Inti and Asif. Is that enough or do you need more education for asking silly questions.
You have no idea as my previous paragraph has shown and nothing is cooked up. You have about as much knowledge on our FC system as someone from Mars. First you claimed it was 5 teams and then you claimed this. Give it a rest

 

[muqarrab]

Maybe a little research will help you to understand. Let me start with IK,Miandad, Z, Mushtaq, Majid, Sadiq Sarfraz, Inti and Asif. Is that enough or do you need more education for asking silly questions.
You have no idea as my previous paragraph has shown and nothing is cooked up. You have about as much knowledge on our FC system as someone from Mars. First you claimed it was 5 teams and then you claimed this. Give it a rest

These are handful of players, i.e. what you named above, and all of them were product of our domestic system.

I am from Mars. I want to set up a domestic system in my home country back on Mars. My country has a population of 250million. Please advise me on what type of FC system we should have and why that is the system to have?

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistan copy pasted Australia’s structure without thinking it through. One of the many dumb decisions made by the clueless regime of Mani & Wasim. The dynamics are completely different.

When you consider Pakistan’s population, 6 teams are nowhere near enough. The notion that we have 12 teams in total doesn’t mean anything because 6 first teams + 6 second teams are not the same as 12 different teams.

When you have a first & second team system, someone has to drop out from the first team for someone from the second team to get a chance.

Pakistan trimmed down domestic cricket to 6 teams based on the illogical assumption that less number of teams would mean more competition & better quality of players coming through.

That is total nonsense. If that were true, BCCI would not have 38 teams in Ranji Trophy.

If we follow this logic, India will only produce players like Tendulkar, Kohli, Gavaskar if they reduce the number of teams to say 12.

Just imagine how good you have to be to break into a 12 team competition that is catering to be 2 billion people, but it doesn’t work like that.

In fact, why stop at 6? Just have two teams in QeA trophy. You will have the 22 best players in the country & you can keep selecting them.

Pakistan needs to bring departmental cricket back. That was not the problem. As usual, our diagnoses are wrong which leads to the wrong prognosis & we never improve.

Departmental cricket was abolished in April 2019 & nearly 4 years later, we have not seen any positive outcome. This is more than enough time to see results.

If apologists think it is too early, please give us a date & time on which we can evaluate the results. I can guarantee you that even if you wait for 20 years, it will not show any positive results because it is a dysfunctional system.

 

[Mamoon]

These are handful of players, i.e. what you named above, and all of them were product of our domestic system.

I am from Mars. I want to set up a domestic system in my home country back on Mars. My country has a population of 250million. Please advise me on what type of FC system we should have and why that is the system to have?

The type of FC system that Pakistan had until 2019 & the type of FC system India has to this day. You have to be a total fool to have a 6 team FC system to cater to 250 million people.

I keep asking these apologists what would happen if BCCI reduces no of Ranji teams to say 12 from 38 & why they don’t do it if less teams is proportional to more quality players. They never have an answer.

 

[Bewal Express]

Pakistan copy pasted Australia’s structure without thinking it through. One of the many dumb decisions made by the clueless regime of Mani & Wasim. The dynamics are completely different.

When you consider Pakistan’s population, 6 teams are nowhere near enough. The notion that we have 12 teams in total doesn’t mean anything because 6 first teams + 6 second teams are not the same as 12 different teams.

When you have a first & second team system, someone has to drop out from the first team for someone from the second team to get a chance.

Pakistan trimmed down domestic cricket to 6 teams based on the illogical assumption that less number of teams would mean more competition & better quality of players coming through.

That is total nonsense. If that were true, BCCI would not have 38 teams in Ranji Trophy.

If we follow this logic, India will only produce players like Tendulkar, Kohli, Gavaskar if they reduce the number of teams to say 12.

Just imagine how good you have to be to break into a 12 team competition that is catering to be 2 billion people, but it doesn’t work like that.

In fact, why stop at 6? Just have two teams in QeA trophy. You will have the 22 best players in the country & you can keep selecting them.

Pakistan needs to bring departmental cricket back. That was not the problem. As usual, our diagnoses are wrong which leads to the wrong prognosis & we never improve.

Departmental cricket was abolished in April 2019 & nearly 4 years later, we have not seen any positive outcome. This is more than enough time to see results.

If apologists think it is too early, please give us a date & time on which we can evaluate the results. I can guarantee you that even if you wait for 20 years, it will not show any positive results because it is a dysfunctional system.

So you want more teams when the quality is barely there for the 6/12 teams. In your top league you want the best players to play the other good players so that you can sort out the wheat from the chaff. This allows the selectors to trust the system and start pick the guys with the best stats and over time you dont have to look for uncut gems because they Will obvious to all.

 

[Bewal Express]

[/b]

The type of FC system that Pakistan had until 2019 & the type of FC system India has to this day. You have to be a total fool to have a 6 team FC system to cater to 250 million people.

I keep asking these apologists what would happen if BCCI reduces no of Ranji teams to say 12 from 38 & why they don’t do it if less teams is proportional to more quality players. They never have an answer.

There are 12 teams not 6.

 

[Bewal Express]

These are handful of players, i.e. what you named above, and all of them were product of our domestic system.

I am from Mars. I want to set up a domestic system in my home country back on Mars. My country has a population of 250million. Please advise me on what type of FC system we should have and why that is the system to have?

So from "cooking up" to handful. Any other gems or maybe you can do some Homework before you start to make accusations. And as for you saying they are from our system- well if they stayed in our system and not gone to professional counties, we wouldn't be talking about them. You have no idea what you are saying, just randomly throwing stuff out there in the hope that you don't get another lesson. So far we know you don't even how many teams are in the new system, nor anything about the corruption or poor the standard. You got no idea about PKs in county cricket or about anything else.

 

[Mamoon]

So you want more teams when the quality is barely there for the 6/12 teams. In your top league you want the best players to play the other good players so that you can sort out the wheat from the chaff. This allows the selectors to trust the system and start pick the guys with the best stats and over time you dont have to look for uncut gems because they Will obvious to all.

In every FC team across the globe, you will find several players who will never be international material or were failures at international level. Yet they still play because they perform at domestic level.

When you reduce the teams to 6, you are only reducing the opportunity for young players with high potential because the domestic veterans will continue to hog the spots. This is why you need more teams & this is why India has 38 teams.

There is enough room for young players to come through & also for domestic veterans to continue to play. This is how it was for Pakistan as well before 2019.

You can’t chuck out players from FC who are not international standard. If that is so you are basically sending the message that if you are not international quality, you cannot be a FC cricketer & therefore, cannot be a professional cricketer.

International cricket is the pinnacle of professional cricket, it does not define professional cricket. There is not a single FC system in the world that has weeded out all its domestic players or are attempting to do so.

It works for a country like Australia that has less people than Karachi & Lahore combined & only a fraction of that population plays cricket. 6 teams can cater to such a tiny pool of players where there will be enough room for domestic veterans & upcoming young players who are international caliber.

Pakistan is a country of 225 million. Even if a percent of this population is aspiring to play professional cricket, you have thousands of more potential cricketers than a country like Australia.

Therefore, you cannot mimic their FC setup & have the same number of teams. It is a recipe for disaster. Pakistan needs to revert back to the model of 16 teams. If not 16, at least 12 different teams. This current system of 6 teams is a joke.

 

[Mamoon]

There are 12 teams not 6.

Again, 6 division one & 6 division two teams isn’t the same as 12 division one teams.

Not every performing player in division two will get a chance to make the jump to division one because someone from division one will have to make way first.

 

[Bewal Express]

In every FC team across the globe, you will find several players who will never be international material or were failures at international level. Yet they still play because they perform at domestic level.

When you reduce the teams to 6, you are only reducing the opportunity for young players with high potential because the domestic veterans will continue to hog the spots. This is why you need more teams & this is why India has 38 teams.

There is enough room for young players to come through & also for domestic veterans to continue to play. This is how it was for Pakistan as well before 2019.

You can’t chuck out players from FC who are not international standard. If that is so you are basically sending the message that if you are not international quality, you cannot be a FC cricketer & therefore, cannot be a professional cricketer.

International cricket is the pinnacle of professional cricket, it does not define professional cricket. There is not a single FC system in the world that has weeded out all its domestic players or are attempting to do so.

It works for a country like Australia that has less people than Karachi & Lahore combined & only a fraction of that population plays cricket. 6 teams can cater to such a tiny pool of players where there will be enough room for domestic veterans & upcoming young players who are international caliber.

Pakistan is a country of 225 million. Even if a percent of this population is aspiring to play professional cricket, you have thousands of more potential cricketers than a country like Australia.

Therefore, you cannot mimic their FC setup & have the same number of teams. It is a recipe for disaster. Pakistan needs to revert back to the model of 16 teams. If not 16, at least 12 different teams. This current system of 6 teams is a joke.

It's not 6 though. It's 12. The Australian system has worked and other countries have tried to emulate it( county cricket has 2 divisions) because the strength playing strength will produce the Darwinian survival of the fittest. It is the system that has worked to produce the best cricket over the longest period, well over a 100 years.
Your point about some players not making it as internationals is valid but at that level the aim of every player should be to work day and night to play for PK which is what happens in Australia. If your Sadafs and many others play for decades for depts without ever getting close to selection, what benefit is that to the PK team. What is the incentive for players to improve and improve the overall standards if they don't fear losing their job. Each year I am accountable for the results of my students, If I weren't, I too, would be sitting on a forum all day long arguing with anonymous people.
As far as young people players are concerned- your point would be valid if the young players weren't being inducted into the system. Look at Sindh- Saim, Omar, Saad are in the top 4,look at Northerns- Mubashir and Huraira and I could name others for Balochistan etc. The system has filtered out the career hangers on. We have only had 3 proper years and it has already given as opportunity to assess the likes of Huraira etc. Its done the very thing it was designed to do.

Going forward the pitches have to have more pace- still leaning towards the batsman but with pace. That comes from investment and better groundsman and not what as what one FC player described them as "gardeners". As more players come through there should be a 2nd team for Sindh and another one for KP. We need more games around 14 a year. The FC season needs to be longer

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] you've been saying for years there's no talent in Pakistan but now you're making the case for more FC teams because too many talents are being sidelined ?

The old system was not working for us. We were ranked 7th in Tests at the time of the change. There were too many mediocre cricketers not fit for FC cricket much less internationals, clinging on well past their expiry dates.

At least now with fewer teams and vastly improved broadcast coverage - it's much easier for youngsters to break through like Abdullah Shafique, Mohammad Huraira and Abrar Ahmed - and much tougher to get away with corrupt practices or complacency. It's unsurprising the people barking loudest against the system are toxic seniors Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal who think it's an insult to now have to perform for their places.

The departments themselves were making cutbacks, with UBL even closing down their cricket division in 2018. Their financial position has gotten worse since COVID, and they haven't come flooding back despite the new Govt. If the departmental structure was better then why hasn't any other cricketing nation adopted it ?

Najam Sethi in his PP interview said he wanted to abolish departments himself but ran into political obstruction.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] you've been saying for years there's no talent in Pakistan but now you're making the case for more FC teams because too many talents are being sidelined ?

The old system was not working for us. We were ranked 7th in Tests at the time of the change. There were too many mediocre cricketers not fit for FC cricket much less internationals, clinging on well past their expiry dates.

At least now with fewer teams and vastly improved broadcast coverage - it's much easier for youngsters to break through like Abdullah Shafique, Mohammad Huraira and Abrar Ahmed - and much tougher to get away with corrupt practices or complacency. It's unsurprising the people barking loudest against the system are toxic seniors Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal who think it's an insult to now have to perform for their places.

The departments themselves were making cutbacks, with UBL even closing down their cricket division in 2018. Their financial position has gotten worse since COVID, and they haven't come flooding back despite the new Govt. If the departmental structure was better then why hasn't any other cricketing nation adopted it ?

Najam Sethi in his PP interview said he wanted to abolish departments himself but ran into political obstruction.

It is not about talent or no talent. It is about giving professional cricketers a platform to play. It is very unrealistic & unreasonable to suggest that if you are not international quality, you should not play domestic cricket.

Cricket as a professional sports exists outside international cricket. Sure, it is the end goal of every player to play international cricket but if you don’t, it doesn’t mean that you should not get a chance to play domestic cricket.

There isn’t a single a cricket nation in the world where domestic performers are sidelined but that is what Pakistan is attempting to achieve by trimming down the teams to 6 which are nowhere near enough to cater to a huge population.

There is no obviously no perfect number of teams, but 6 is clearly not enough. Again, [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] & others say that we have 12 but again, 6 division one & 6 division two teams is not the same as 12 division one teams.

The current system is actually making it harder for young players to break through because regular domestic players are still getting picked for their regional sides, so now it is even harder for a youngster to break through.

Less number of teams is not proportional to better production of players. If that were true, there wouldn’t be 38 teams in Ranji & if that were true, India would produce all time greats only if they trim down Ranji to 12 teams because you will have to be extraordinarily gifted to break through a 12 team FC tournament that is catering to 2 billion people.

Pakistan’s problem was not number of teams or departmental cricket. None of the problems were solved by revamping the domestic cricket. 4 years later we have seen 0 positive outcomes.

If things are as bad now, if not worse, than they were few years earlier, then it simply means that departmental cricket was not an issue.

 

[shah_1]

Old system was a lot better than this garbage

Mostly parchi players play in this tournament, this system only work where there is meritocracy like we see in NZ and Australia.

 

[Bewal Express]

It is not about talent or no talent. It is about giving professional cricketers a platform to play. It is very unrealistic & unreasonable to suggest that if you are not international quality, you should not play domestic cricket.

Cricket as a professional sports exists outside international cricket. Sure, it is the end goal of every player to play international cricket but if you don’t, it doesn’t mean that you should not get a chance to play domestic cricket.

There isn’t a single a cricket nation in the world where domestic performers are sidelined but that is what Pakistan is attempting to achieve by trimming down the teams to 6 which are nowhere near enough to cater to a huge population.

There is no obviously no perfect number of teams, but 6 is clearly not enough. Again, [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] & others say that we have 12 but again, 6 division one & 6 division two teams is not the same as 12 division one teams.

The current system is actually making it harder for young players to break through because regular domestic players are still getting picked for their regional sides, so now it is even harder for a youngster to break through.

Less number of teams is not proportional to better production of players. If that were true, there wouldn’t be 38 teams in Ranji & if that were true, India would produce all time greats only if they trim down Ranji to 12 teams because you will have to be extraordinarily gifted to break through a 12 team FC tournament that is catering to 2 billion people.

Pakistan’s problem was not number of teams or departmental cricket. None of the problems were solved by revamping the domestic cricket. 4 years later we have seen 0 positive outcomes.

If things are as bad now, if not worse, than they were few years earlier, then it simply means that departmental cricket was not an issue.

FC has no real audience and its aim is to help the National team become the best possible team. With that in mind, you look to have only the best possible players at that level. I can remember when you proclaimed that the new system had failed because Imran Farhat had been chosen for the Baluchistan team( do you remember that) but Imran Farhat, Kami, and 90% of the guys that should have stopped playing a decade ago would still be playing( along with their sons) FC cricket as part of some Dept or other

As far as the young players are concerned, you are getting knickers in a twist- on the one hand your telling us we have no talent and then you want more opportunities for the underserving. I explained earlier that young players have developed and no one deserving from the u19s has been unfairly treated.

I agree that below this level needs much more work. The Regions and Cities need cricket to allow the odd player that has missed the boat to get another chance.

 

[Bewal Express]

Old system was a lot better than this garbage

Mostly parchi players play in this tournament, this system only work where there is meritocracy like we see in NZ and Australia.

Like?

 

[muqarrab]

[/b]

The type of FC system that Pakistan had until 2019 & the type of FC system India has to this day. You have to be a total fool to have a 6 team FC system to cater to 250 million people.

I keep asking these apologists what would happen if BCCI reduces no of Ranji teams to say 12 from 38 & why they don’t do it if less teams is proportional to more quality players. They never have an answer.

Makes sense.

 

[muqarrab]

So from "cooking up" to handful. Any other gems or maybe you can do some Homework before you start to make accusations. And as for you saying they are from our system- well if they stayed in our system and not gone to professional counties, we wouldn't be talking about them. You have no idea what you are saying, just randomly throwing stuff out there in the hope that you don't get another lesson. So far we know you don't even how many teams are in the new system, nor anything about the corruption or poor the standard. You got no idea about PKs in county cricket or about anything else.

Let me repeat, O Sage and Oracle, please advise a martian, I am from Mars. I want to set up a domestic system in my home country back on Mars. My country has a population of 250million. Please advise me on what type of FC system we should have and why that is the system to have?

 

[Bewal Express]

Let me repeat, O Sage and Oracle, please advise a martian, I am from Mars. I want to set up a domestic system in my home country back on Mars. My country has a population of 250million. Please advise me on what type of FC system we should have and why that is the system to have?

Read my reply to Mamoon and you will see what i said. I cant repeat myself over and over again.

 

[muqarrab]

Read my reply to Mamoon and you will see what i said. I cant repeat myself over and over again.

I am sorry, but could you give an answer?

 

[Savak]

Lol looks like Shahbaz Sharif did a double whammy. Made Ramiz overconfident and then pounced hard on him when he least expected it.