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Ramiz Raja questions special treatment for Salman Butt

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Going in circles in cricket corruption- PSL guilty players fined leniently while rogue Salman Butt is green lighted to play for Pak again ����</p>— Ramiz Raja (@iramizraja) <a href="https://twitter.com/iramizraja/status/911601357790072832">September 23, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Well the PCB had planned to sideline Butt forever but Mickey Arthur was impressed by Butt's batting and fitness. They have changed their plans now and instead Butt will be integrated into the test team via an A tour and a few domestic games.

It also tells you that Mickey Arthur doesn't see better options in the country for the opening spot in Test cricket.
 
Mickey went from saying we don't need Salman Butt to "its up to the board"

Salman always had backing even before fixing
 
this was bound to happen when you welcomed amir back with a red carpet

no need of crying now. you failed to make an example of amir and now you will reap what you sow.
 
But Ramiz is quite happy to sit in the commentary box with 'friends' who were named and shamed in the Qayyum report and doesn't complain about others named in the Qayyum report working for the PCB.

Smells of double-standards to me.
 
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But Ramiz is quite happy to sit in the commentary box with 'friends' who were named and shamed in the Qayyum report.

Smells of double-standards to me.

The Qayyum Enquiry to which Rameez provided no meaningful evidence, only to suddenly remember in 2015 all the fixing that he had failed to report.
 
The Qayyum Enquiry to which Rameez provided no meaningful evidence, only to suddenly remember in 2015 all the fixing that he had failed to report.

And that somehow makes it ok for Salman Butt to don the star and crescent once again.........We do we have Goldfish memories is beyond me !! :facepalm:
 
But Ramiz is quite happy to sit in the commentary box with 'friends' who were named and shamed in the Qayyum report and doesn't complain about others named in the Qayyum report working for the PCB.

Smells of double-standards to me.

The name and shamed now hold cosching and managerial positions within the PCB. This is bound to happen at all times. It seems as a nation we tend to have forgiving tendencies
 
Ramiz and Wasim joined hands many times for PCB. Don't like this back-stabbing business - if he has an issue he should say it out
 
The name and shamed now hold cosching and managerial positions within the PCB. This is bound to happen at all times. It seems as a nation we tend to have forgiving tendencies

Well it's the forget some and not forget others business that is worrying and rather confusing.
 
Ramiz is that typical guy who will never punch above his weight. It is easy for him to pick on the likes of Amir, Asif, Butt because they did not hold the level of power, influence, status and fame in Pakistani society like Wasim, Waqar, Malik and co did which is why he finds it easier to speak out against the former but not against the later.
 
Ramiz also apposed Amir's return to Pak team, glad no one gave a damn to him.
 
Well I'm glad no one listens to Ramiz.

If it was upto Ramiz Amir would never be playing just to appease his Indian fans and some self Pak haters.

Not a fan of Butt but if he's scoring runs and he's served his sentence and rehabilitation, then scoring tons of runs in domestic then he too should in the selectors radar.

And corruption is not going to be solved through simplistic idealistic solutions. You have to deep digger on what's fuelling it in the first place.
 
I've never heard Ramiz speak out about Mushtaq Ahmed and him working for the PCB coaching at the NCA and with Pakistan players, despite him being named in the Qayyum report.
 
I've never heard Ramiz speak out about Mushtaq Ahmed and him working for the PCB coaching at the NCA and with Pakistan players, despite him being named in the Qayyum report.

Being named in a report doesn't mean anything. By his own admission, Justice Qayyum lacked evidence against most of the players, and he admits he fined the players (including Mushy) for "not telling the truth." He admits he did not fine them for fixing. The whole report is very flawed, and is unlikely to be upheld in any court.

Back to the subject at hand, I am not a fan of Ramiz but I think you are being a unfair on him. He is rightly criticising the PCB's approach to Salman Butt. Should I take your criticisms to mean you agree with the PCB's approach to Salman Butt? Do you agree with Butt being brought back into the national team?
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/iramizraja">@iramizraja</a> Bahi players who have played with clean&#55357;&#56474;heart for &#55356;&#56821;&#55356;&#56816; are thinking have THEY done WRONG playing CLEAN cricket & Struggled in it.&#55358;&#56596; <a href="https://t.co/lcConJbdby">https://t.co/lcConJbdby</a></p>— Faisal Iqbal&#55356;&#57295;&#55356;&#56821;&#55356;&#56816; (@FaisalIqbalCric) <a href="https://twitter.com/FaisalIqbalCric/status/911873820788711424">September 24, 2017</a></blockquote>
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I didn't want to turn this thread into social commentary but Salman Butt epitomises class privilege in Pakistan. Compare his treatment to that of Ata-ur-Rehman. Came from an ordinary background, not even possessing any cricket boots when he was first spotted. He was on the fringes of the Pakistan team in the 1990s and lacked any social connections so was an easy sacrificial lamb for Qayyum. Now he drives taxis in London and nobody hears his story while Butt lands commentary gigs.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve punishment, but look at the double standards. Salman Butt on the other hand comes from a middle-class Lahore family, he gets educated at an English school and spotted at an early age. He was fast tracked through the ranks and became a mainstay in the national team through the 2000s.

He did show early promise but never fulfilled his potential through poor fitness, atrocious running between the wickets and an entitlement complex. There are stories of Butt asking curators in domestic cricket to shave off the grass on a pitch so he could compile easy runs. His Test record is the epitome of mediocrity, failing to average much higher than 30 even on the featherbeds at home. But he rubs shoulders with the right people and hoodwinks you with sporadic performances to suggest he's at least a poor man's Saeed Anwar.

Despite a secular upbringing, he exhibits enough religiousity to stay on Inzamam's good side and his failures are tolerated, lucky the alternatives were even more pathetic. He had been groomed for captaincy for years by the PCB which shows what judges of character they are.

Butt was the establishment favourite who could present a clean shaven, handsome, almost Western face to the rest of the world, with fluent English and (sometimes) fluent batting, and plenty of snake oil salesman charm. Forget his mediocre batting - at least he came from the right background. Him "dedicating" the Oval Test win to the flood victims is even more revolting in retrospect knowing he was to sell his country but that's Salman Butt for you - less a cricketer and more a PR conman.

Its that same entitlement complex that was evident after being caught redhanded. He denied and denied involvement, inexplicably given a platform to spout his barefaced lies in TV studios and play the victim. At least Amir confessed his guilt at an early stage, Asif smart enough to keep his mouth shut, but this guy was shameless throughout that period. I'm sure Butt regrets being exposed in England - in Pakistan he'd have received a slap on the wrist because his buddies would've saved the day.

Now he's back and he's the same PR man. You'll see his name near the top of the domestic one day batting charts but look at his selfish SRs. He angles for a Test recall when at his prime he was merely the best of a sorry bunch. He charms Mickey Arthur by weaving a story of redemption when he was never sorry for being guilty in the first place - only sorry for getting caught.

The trio weren't all the same nor should be treated all the same. Look at the sentences, they all received 5 years because that was the punishment set in the ICC Code at the time. Butt received the LONGEST suspended sentence so Justice Beloff DID differentiate. Butt introduced the others to Majeed and he was the skipper who abused his seniority by pressurising a kid in Amir (yes not an innocent saint but was a silly kid nonetheless).

I'm all for redemption and rehabilitation, but only for those who were honest about their shortcomings which Butt wasn't. If you want openers, pick Sami Aslam, Imam-ul-Haq and Jaahid Ali not this conman.
 
Being named in a report doesn't mean anything. By his own admission, Justice Qayyum lacked evidence against most of the players, and he admits he fined the players (including Mushy) for "not telling the truth." He admits he did not fine them for fixing. The whole report is very flawed, and is unlikely to be upheld in any court.

Back to the subject at hand, I am not a fan of Ramiz but I think you are being a unfair on him. He is rightly criticising the PCB's approach to Salman Butt. Should I take your criticisms to mean you agree with the PCB's approach to Salman Butt? Do you agree with Butt being brought back into the national team?

Regarding the Qayyum report, several players refused to co-operate fully. If they had, who knows what may have happened and what punishments would have been handed out.

Check the interview I did with Tauqir Zia and what he said about the Qayyum report - it's eye-opening.

Regarding Butt, if his punishment was 5 years and he has served that punishment, then who is Ramiz to question it. The same would apply to any other player who has served his punishment in my opinion.
 
Being named in a report doesn't mean anything. By his own admission, Justice Qayyum lacked evidence against most of the players, and he admits he fined the players (including Mushy) for "not telling the truth." He admits he did not fine them for fixing. The whole report is very flawed, and is unlikely to be upheld in any court.

Back to the subject at hand, I am not a fan of Ramiz but I think you are being a unfair on him. He is rightly criticising the PCB's approach to Salman Butt. Should I take your criticisms to mean you agree with the PCB's approach to Salman Butt? Do you agree with Butt being brought back into the national team?

He says about Wasim:

''"The evidence against Wasim Akram has not come up to the requisite level, primarily because of Ata-ur-Rehman's perjuring himself. This Commission is willing to give him the benefit of doubt. However, there has been some evidence to cast doubt on his integrity."''

He also said Wasim should never be captain again and called for more investigation into Mushtaq.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/iramizraja">@iramizraja</a> Bahi players who have played with clean��heart for ���� are thinking have THEY done WRONG playing CLEAN cricket & Struggled in it.�� <a href="https://t.co/lcConJbdby">https://t.co/lcConJbdby</a></p>— Faisal Iqbal������ (@FaisalIqbalCric) <a href="https://twitter.com/FaisalIqbalCric/status/911873820788711424">September 24, 2017</a></blockquote>
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They have done wrong by being garbage Faisal. Now please give it a rest, you're in your mid 30s, a horrendous player talent wise, please retire in peace.
 
I didn't want to turn this thread into social commentary but Salman Butt epitomises class privilege in Pakistan. Compare his treatment to that of Ata-ur-Rehman. Came from an ordinary background, not even possessing any cricket boots when he was first spotted. He was on the fringes of the Pakistan team in the 1990s and lacked any social connections so was an easy sacrificial lamb for Qayyum. Now he drives taxis in London and nobody hears his story while Butt lands commentary gigs.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve punishment, but look at the double standards. Salman Butt on the other hand comes from a middle-class Lahore family, he gets educated at an English school and spotted at an early age. He was fast tracked through the ranks and became a mainstay in the national team through the 2000s.

He did show early promise but never fulfilled his potential through poor fitness, atrocious running between the wickets and an entitlement complex. There are stories of Butt asking curators in domestic cricket to shave off the grass on a pitch so he could compile easy runs. His Test record is the epitome of mediocrity, failing to average much higher than 30 even on the featherbeds at home. But he rubs shoulders with the right people and hoodwinks you with sporadic performances to suggest he's at least a poor man's Saeed Anwar.

Despite a secular upbringing, he exhibits enough religiousity to stay on Inzamam's good side and his failures are tolerated, lucky the alternatives were even more pathetic. He had been groomed for captaincy for years by the PCB which shows what judges of character they are.

Butt was the establishment favourite who could present a clean shaven, handsome, almost Western face to the rest of the world, with fluent English and (sometimes) fluent batting, and plenty of snake oil salesman charm. Forget his mediocre batting - at least he came from the right background. Him "dedicating" the Oval Test win to the flood victims is even more revolting in retrospect knowing he was to sell his country but that's Salman Butt for you - less a cricketer and more a PR conman.

Its that same entitlement complex that was evident after being caught redhanded. He denied and denied involvement, inexplicably given a platform to spout his barefaced lies in TV studios and play the victim. At least Amir confessed his guilt at an early stage, Asif smart enough to keep his mouth shut, but this guy was shameless throughout that period. I'm sure Butt regrets being exposed in England - in Pakistan he'd have received a slap on the wrist because his buddies would've saved the day.

Now he's back and he's the same PR man. You'll see his name near the top of the domestic one day batting charts but look at his selfish SRs. He angles for a Test recall when at his prime he was merely the best of a sorry bunch. He charms Mickey Arthur by weaving a story of redemption when he was never sorry for being guilty in the first place - only sorry for getting caught.

The trio weren't all the same nor should be treated all the same. Look at the sentences, they all received 5 years because that was the punishment set in the ICC Code at the time. Butt received the LONGEST suspended sentence so Justice Beloff DID differentiate. Butt introduced the others to Majeed and he was the skipper who abused his seniority by pressurising a kid in Amir (yes not an innocent saint but was a silly kid nonetheless).

I'm all for redemption and rehabilitation, but only for those who were honest about their shortcomings which Butt wasn't. If you want openers, pick Sami Aslam, Imam-ul-Haq and Jaahid Ali not this conman.
powt

excellently written and i agree
 
Salman Butt was the guiltiest of the 3 (in 2010 saga). Hence deserves the bigger punishment. Quyyam report is a totally different case.
Qayyum report was working off unproven allegations & it only gave recommendations. Salim Malik was rightly banned others like Wasim Akram, Inzamam, Mushtaq etc were named but no corroborating evidence was given. Without proof one sounds like Sarfraz Nawaz, who blames whoever he wants.
 
Salman Butt was the guiltiest of the 3 (in 2010 saga). Hence deserves the bigger punishment. Quyyam report is a totally different case.
Qayyum report was working off unproven allegations & it only gave recommendations. Salim Malik was rightly banned others like Wasim Akram, Inzamam, Mushtaq etc were named but no corroborating evidence was given. Without proof one sounds like Sarfraz Nawaz, who blames whoever he wants.
This is highly doubtful. I will choose my words very carefully now to avoid censorship.

Mohammad Amir had the same patterns of:

1. Incriminating SMS and mobile phone traffic in the West Indies 3 months earlier (as did Butt, but not Asif).
2. Marked notes from the fixer found in his possession (as did Butt, but not Asif).
3. Recorded agreement to a prior fix at The Oval, as well as the Lords one (as did Butt, but not Asif).

Mohammad Amir is only the least guilty if you believe his claim that he was only just 18 years of age at the time.

If you think that Mohammad Amir was not 18 at the time - and is therefore not 25 now but arguably 27 or 28, then that would make him the most guilty of the three, losing the benefit of being treated as a vulnerable youth and indeed if that were the case he would have misled the court to avoid being imprisoned in an adult jail.

There is an argument that the person who manipulated the criminal and cricketing trials and punishment process was not Salman Butt, who as is his right pleaded not guilty.

Think about it.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/iramizraja">@iramizraja</a> Bahi players who have played with clean��heart for ���� are thinking have THEY done WRONG playing CLEAN cricket & Struggled in it.�� <a href="https://t.co/lcConJbdby">https://t.co/lcConJbdby</a></p>— Faisal Iqbal������ (@FaisalIqbalCric) <a href="https://twitter.com/FaisalIqbalCric/status/911873820788711424">September 24, 2017</a></blockquote>
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omg.....OMG THIS LEGEND !!

How can people miss this gem :)) :)) [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] [MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION]
 
There's something that just doesn't feel right about the way Salman Butt goes about his business... lots of politicking and getting in with the right people. Just a feeling but as soon as he's back in the team expect a new scandal or two. He will try match/spot fixing again. It's just his nature.
 
Well it started with Mohammad Amir, Ramiz conveniently forgetting about that point. If Amir was forgiven why not Butt?
 
Salman Butt was the guiltiest of the 3 (in 2010 saga). Hence deserves the bigger punishment. Quyyam report is a totally different case.
Qayyum report was working off unproven allegations & it only gave recommendations. Salim Malik was rightly banned others like Wasim Akram, Inzamam, Mushtaq etc were named but no corroborating evidence was given. Without proof one sounds like Sarfraz Nawaz, who blames whoever he wants.

Please tell me where he was mentioned he was the guiltiest of all 3? When he's the guy who didn't even overstep the line. It was the other 2 buffoons who did.
 
Ramiz's point is absolutely correct. Don't shoot down the message just because you think the messenger comes with unclean hands. Salman Butt is a fraud - he did it (at least) once and he will do it again.
 
Please tell me where he was mentioned he was the guiltiest of all 3? When he's the guy who didn't even overstep the line. It was the other 2 buffoons who did.

To quote HHJ Cooke directly here:

"I am clear that you [Amir] bear less responsibility than your captain who influenced you in the manner to which I have earlier referred."
 
I don't think it's fair to bash Rameez for this statement based on the interactions with players named in the Qayyuum report. Obviously harder for him to go against those named in that report and the evidence sentences themselves were not as absolute as the fixing trio, there was a lot of doubt/uncertainty. I haven't seen Rameez openly support guys who were properly convicted/banned like Saleem. In addition I don't think it's fair to blame him for keeping quiet while he was playing, it's potentially dangerous to whistle-blow, hard to offer up proof, and you could find yourself out of the team for "disharmony". Rameez is entitled to his views, and quite frankly it's the right view. If Pakistan wasn't so sympathetic to fixing and had a no tolerance policy to fixing (and adequate anti-corruption measures in the past), we wouldn't have been in this mess. Wish more people in Pakistan thought like Rameez in this regard.

He's perfectly fine to be against Butt playing again, as most cricket fans throughout the world are against it. I don't agree to blame of Amir being put on Butt, both decided to fix intentionally. Butt committed a greater offence as he was captain and organised the fixing, and quite frankly someone organising fixing in the team as captain really should be a life bannable offense, as he's not only indulging in corruption himself but corrupting the entire team in a position of responsibility and power. I would have banned both Amir and Butt for life from internationals, though I was happy for Amir to continue playing domestic cricket after a 5 year ban. Personally though I would have liked Butt to have been banned from domestic and international for life. Sickens me that he's let back in the team, but then again if we're using the reasoning of he's served his time and it's only fair he plays logic we did in order to get Amir back, it seems a tad double standards to turn around to Butt and say it doesn't apply.
 
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I don't think it's fair to bash Rameez for this statement based on the interactions with players named in the Qayyuum report. Obviously harder for him to go against those named in that report and the evidence sentences themselves were not as absolute as the fixing trio, there was a lot of doubt/uncertainty. I haven't seen Rameez openly support guys who were properly convicted/banned like Saleem. In addition I don't think it's fair to blame him for keeping quiet while he was playing, it's potentially dangerous to whistle-blow, hard to offer up proof, and you could find yourself out of the team for "disharmony". Rameez is entitled to his views, and quite frankly it's the right view. If Pakistan wasn't so sympathetic to fixing and had a no tolerance policy to fixing (and adequate anti-corruption measures in the past), we wouldn't have been in this mess. Wish more people in Pakistan thought like Rameez in this regard.

He's perfectly fine to be against Butt playing again, as most cricket fans throughout the world are against it. I don't agree to blame of Amir being put on Butt, both decided to fix intentionally. Butt committed a greater offence as he was captain and organised the fixing, and quite frankly someone organising fixing in the team as captain really should be a life bannable offense, as he's not only indulging in corruption himself but corrupting the entire team in a position of responsibility and power. I would have banned both Amir and Butt for life from internationals, though I was happy for Amir to continue playing domestic cricket after a 5 year ban. Personally though I would have liked Butt to have been banned from domestic and international for life. Sickens me that he's let back in the team, but then again if we're using the reasoning of he's served his time and it's only fair he plays logic we did in order to get Amir back, it seems a tad double standards to turn around to Butt and say it doesn't apply.

Rameez Raja is basically a prisoner of his changing accounts.

He told Qayyum that he knew nothing about fixing in the team in the 1990s.

He then wrote 25 months ago that he saw fixing all around him in the period prior to being appointed captain in 1995.

He can't wriggle off the hook for this. Rameez either has made a miracle recovery from premature dementia, which robbed him of his memories for years, or he lied to Qayyum.
 
I didn't want to turn this thread into social commentary but Salman Butt epitomises class privilege in Pakistan. Compare his treatment to that of Ata-ur-Rehman. Came from an ordinary background, not even possessing any cricket boots when he was first spotted. He was on the fringes of the Pakistan team in the 1990s and lacked any social connections so was an easy sacrificial lamb for Qayyum. Now he drives taxis in London and nobody hears his story while Butt lands commentary gigs.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve punishment, but look at the double standards. Salman Butt on the other hand comes from a middle-class Lahore family, he gets educated at an English school and spotted at an early age. He was fast tracked through the ranks and became a mainstay in the national team through the 2000s.

He did show early promise but never fulfilled his potential through poor fitness, atrocious running between the wickets and an entitlement complex. There are stories of Butt asking curators in domestic cricket to shave off the grass on a pitch so he could compile easy runs. His Test record is the epitome of mediocrity, failing to average much higher than 30 even on the featherbeds at home. But he rubs shoulders with the right people and hoodwinks you with sporadic performances to suggest he's at least a poor man's Saeed Anwar.

Despite a secular upbringing, he exhibits enough religiousity to stay on Inzamam's good side and his failures are tolerated, lucky the alternatives were even more pathetic. He had been groomed for captaincy for years by the PCB which shows what judges of character they are.

Butt was the establishment favourite who could present a clean shaven, handsome, almost Western face to the rest of the world, with fluent English and (sometimes) fluent batting, and plenty of snake oil salesman charm. Forget his mediocre batting - at least he came from the right background. Him "dedicating" the Oval Test win to the flood victims is even more revolting in retrospect knowing he was to sell his country but that's Salman Butt for you - less a cricketer and more a PR conman.

Its that same entitlement complex that was evident after being caught redhanded. He denied and denied involvement, inexplicably given a platform to spout his barefaced lies in TV studios and play the victim. At least Amir confessed his guilt at an early stage, Asif smart enough to keep his mouth shut, but this guy was shameless throughout that period. I'm sure Butt regrets being exposed in England - in Pakistan he'd have received a slap on the wrist because his buddies would've saved the day.

Now he's back and he's the same PR man. You'll see his name near the top of the domestic one day batting charts but look at his selfish SRs. He angles for a Test recall when at his prime he was merely the best of a sorry bunch. He charms Mickey Arthur by weaving a story of redemption when he was never sorry for being guilty in the first place - only sorry for getting caught.

The trio weren't all the same nor should be treated all the same. Look at the sentences, they all received 5 years because that was the punishment set in the ICC Code at the time. Butt received the LONGEST suspended sentence so Justice Beloff DID differentiate. Butt introduced the others to Majeed and he was the skipper who abused his seniority by pressurising a kid in Amir (yes not an innocent saint but was a silly kid nonetheless).

I'm all for redemption and rehabilitation, but only for those who were honest about their shortcomings which Butt wasn't. If you want openers, pick Sami Aslam, Imam-ul-Haq and Jaahid Ali not this conman.
This is very subjective.

Yes, the trio was punished differently. On that regards, you have to come up with a time frame where butt could eneter the arena again.

While amir already played, butt is just coming into consideration from "no consideration" state. Hence I believe there's already a differential treatment is done based upon their past actions.

How many years he should sit out more?

This sounds more like an emotional rant than a logical approach.

As per what I believe, bringing back any trio was wrong. Because once you allow one, you simply cannot reject the others. Sooner or later they will crawl back in. It is futile to cry about now as, the authorities are the one who set the wrong proceedings with allowing amir.
 
To quote HHJ Cooke directly here:

"I am clear that you [Amir] bear less responsibility than your captain who influenced you in the manner to which I have earlier referred."

Yes, but then all 3 of them served equal time, were eligible to play equal time. Even the initial sentence laid out to them was reduced to 5 years for both Asif and Butt, all the evidence from Mazhar Arshad was deemed null and void. Put all that into context, and here are 3 names who served the name number of years regardless of age, so I don't see why if the courtss have deemed them as complicit as Amir in terms of their crimes, why are you passing this judgement
 
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If Amir was treated differently on his age, why did he become eligible only 6 months before Asif and Butt but was eligible to play International on the same date as othe two, if he was less complicit why didn't he get maybe 1-2 years for his overstepping? Did he really get off because he was juvenile? Or he was whole heartedly convinced on bowling that no ball for monetary gains
 
Difference is the court never differentiated on the basis of age, it is the fans here who have left Amir off the hook, who is as corrupt and rogue as Mohammad Asif or Salman Butt, who has made a big mistake and if Butt deserves a lifetime ban, than the actual doer of those definitely deserves that ban too.

It is always the killer, one who performs the act who always ends up getting the death penalty first, you have to assess the proofs on who gave those orders and then justify what his penalty would be. But the one who actually commits the act, who has blood on his hands, who actual committed the overstepping (murder), these guys should be the first ones to be hanged/banned in my opinion.
 
This is very subjective.

Yes, the trio was punished differently. On that regards, you have to come up with a time frame where butt could eneter the arena again.

While amir already played, butt is just coming into consideration from "no consideration" state. Hence I believe there's already a differential treatment is done based upon their past actions.

How many years he should sit out more?

This sounds more like an emotional rant than a logical approach.

As per what I believe, bringing back any trio was wrong. Because once you allow one, you simply cannot reject the others. Sooner or later they will crawl back in. It is futile to cry about now as, the authorities are the one who set the wrong proceedings with allowing amir.

I'm not against Butt or Asif playing domestic cricket and making a living. However PCB are NOT compelled to select Salman Butt for the sake of "fairness", especially when there are younger opening alternatives with more potential.

Butt does not get into the national team on merit, he had a thoroughly mediocre record pre-ban. However his buddies in the board like Haroon Rashid have been lobbying for his return ever since his ban expired. He's been seen getting the red carpet treatment at the NCA. Mickey Arthur was publicly against his return a few months ago but now has changed his tune by saying he's open to his return which shows you the power of this lobby.

That's why I said Butt epitomises class privilege in #20 - compare his treatment to the way Ata-ur-Rehman has been totally ostracised. In Pakistan if you have wealth or are socially connected then no crime is unforgiveable.
 
I'm not against Butt or Asif playing domestic cricket and making a living. However PCB are NOT compelled to select Salman Butt for the sake of "fairness", especially when there are younger opening alternatives with more potential.

Butt does not get into the national team on merit, he had a thoroughly mediocre record pre-ban. However his buddies in the board like Haroon Rashid have been lobbying for his return ever since his ban expired. He's been seen getting the red carpet treatment at the NCA. Mickey Arthur was publicly against his return a few months ago but now has changed his tune by saying he's open to his return which shows you the power of this lobby.

That's why I said Butt epitomises class privilege in #20 - compare his treatment to the way Ata-ur-Rehman has been totally ostracised. In Pakistan if you have wealth or are socially connected then no crime is unforgiveable.

fair enough. butt has "class privilege" just like amir has "talent privilege".. were you also critical of amir returning?

now please don't give me the nonsense that amir was young etc etc. it is not about age. if someone like shehzad gets banned people will not ask for him to be pardoned even though he is young.

the only reason people wanted amir to be back is because he had world class talent. now that is as worse as allowing butt to be back because of "class privilege"

as far as amir pleading guilty he did that on advise of his legal team because they realized that by not complying with the legal system amir will create a bigger hole for himself. he didn't plead guilty because he is some saint.

amir is as much of a corrupt crook as butt and asif. please spare us the hypocrisy of using different standards to judge amir and butt.
 
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I didn't want to turn this thread into social commentary but Salman Butt epitomises class privilege in Pakistan. Compare his treatment to that of Ata-ur-Rehman. Came from an ordinary background, not even possessing any cricket boots when he was first spotted. He was on the fringes of the Pakistan team in the 1990s and lacked any social connections so was an easy sacrificial lamb for Qayyum. Now he drives taxis in London and nobody hears his story while Butt lands commentary gigs.

I'm not saying he didn't deserve punishment, but look at the double standards. Salman Butt on the other hand comes from a middle-class Lahore family, he gets educated at an English school and spotted at an early age. He was fast tracked through the ranks and became a mainstay in the national team through the 2000s.

He did show early promise but never fulfilled his potential through poor fitness, atrocious running between the wickets and an entitlement complex. There are stories of Butt asking curators in domestic cricket to shave off the grass on a pitch so he could compile easy runs. His Test record is the epitome of mediocrity, failing to average much higher than 30 even on the featherbeds at home. But he rubs shoulders with the right people and hoodwinks you with sporadic performances to suggest he's at least a poor man's Saeed Anwar.

Despite a secular upbringing, he exhibits enough religiousity to stay on Inzamam's good side and his failures are tolerated, lucky the alternatives were even more pathetic. He had been groomed for captaincy for years by the PCB which shows what judges of character they are.

Butt was the establishment favourite who could present a clean shaven, handsome, almost Western face to the rest of the world, with fluent English and (sometimes) fluent batting, and plenty of snake oil salesman charm. Forget his mediocre batting - at least he came from the right background. Him "dedicating" the Oval Test win to the flood victims is even more revolting in retrospect knowing he was to sell his country but that's Salman Butt for you - less a cricketer and more a PR conman.

Its that same entitlement complex that was evident after being caught redhanded. He denied and denied involvement, inexplicably given a platform to spout his barefaced lies in TV studios and play the victim. At least Amir confessed his guilt at an early stage, Asif smart enough to keep his mouth shut, but this guy was shameless throughout that period. I'm sure Butt regrets being exposed in England - in Pakistan he'd have received a slap on the wrist because his buddies would've saved the day.

Now he's back and he's the same PR man. You'll see his name near the top of the domestic one day batting charts but look at his selfish SRs. He angles for a Test recall when at his prime he was merely the best of a sorry bunch. He charms Mickey Arthur by weaving a story of redemption when he was never sorry for being guilty in the first place - only sorry for getting caught.

The trio weren't all the same nor should be treated all the same. Look at the sentences, they all received 5 years because that was the punishment set in the ICC Code at the time. Butt received the LONGEST suspended sentence so Justice Beloff DID differentiate. Butt introduced the others to Majeed and he was the skipper who abused his seniority by pressurising a kid in Amir (yes not an innocent saint but was a silly kid nonetheless).

I'm all for redemption and rehabilitation, but only for those who were honest about their shortcomings which Butt wasn't. If you want openers, pick Sami Aslam, Imam-ul-Haq and Jaahid Ali not this conman.
Brilliant post.

POTW
 
amir is as much of a corrupt crook as butt and asif. please spare us the hypocrisy of using different standards to judge amir and butt.
Except Justice Cooke in the criminal trial did so not sure what you are crying about. The ICC tribunal gave Butt the longest sentence whilst the judge couldn't be more clear:

22. Because of your leadership status, your direct involvement with Majeed and your key role in directing the corrupt activities, you are more culpable than either of your two bowlers.

That sentence alone should kill the "the trio should be treated the same, you cannot differentiate between them" argument that Butt's defenders keep rehashing. Their culpability in the crime was NOT the same so stop asserting opinion as fact.
now please don't give me the nonsense that amir was young etc etc. it is not about age. if someone like shehzad gets banned people will not ask for him to be pardoned even though he is young.
Except the ICC tribunal and criminal trial DID factor in Amir's age in their verdicts. If Shehzad was 17 or 18 and coerced into fixing by his captain then he'd have received the same sentence as Amir. Let's again return to Justice Cooke:

23. I consider that you (Butt) were responsible for involving Amir in the corruption – an 18 year old from a poverty stricken village background, very different to your own privileged one, who, whilst a very talented bowler, would be inclined to do what his senior players and particularly his captain told him, especially when told there was money in it for him and this was part of the common culture. For an impressionable youngster, not long in the team to stand out against the blandishments of his captain would have been hard.

Or should we disregard ICC's or Justice Cooke's words because [MENTION=145243]Leo23[/MENTION] says so ?

the only reason people wanted amir to be back is because he had world class talent. now that is as worse as allowing butt to be back because of "class privilege"
For some I'm sure talent was a factor. For me talent is irrelevant, its the circumstances that matter. It'd be a cruel society if we did not allow a young but foolish kid who made one bad decision a chance to rehabilitate himself after being coerced into breaking the law by his senior captain.

Its the reason why I don't want Asif back either. Extremely talented bowler but spot-fixing was not his first disciplinary offence. I'd have life banned him after the doping offences.

as far as amir pleading guilty he did that on advise of his legal team because they realized that by not complying with the legal system amir will create a bigger hole for himself. he didn't plead guilty because he is some saint.
Yes, that's the whole purpose of plea bargaining in the criminal justice system :))

Nobody claimed Amir was a saint, that's just you creating a strawman because your argument is based on moral grandstanding and not on any factual basis. Amir accepted his fate whereas Butt took his case even further to the CAS. Only after all legal avenues were exhausted did Butt finally accept reality after months of lies and denial.

Am I saying Butt should not be allowed to play domestic cricket and make a living ? No. But I refuse to roll out the red carpet to a man who as captain created a culture of corruption that nearly destroyed our cricket team. He must pile on the runs season after season in an exceptional manner, show genuine remorse publicly, demonstrate he is a superior opening option to younger alternatives with more promise like Sami Aslam, Imam-ul-Haq and Jaahid Ali and only then will I consider his return - not because Haroon Rashid and Butt's media buddies are lobbying for him.
 
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

its funny how you are talking about the legal system and copy posting quotes from the judge but yet you have a problem with the pcb allowing butt to return to the team? :))

lets face the facts. he was NOT banned for life from international cricket so now that his ban is over he is free to be selected

and he is not getting selected for the PAK A team due to "class privilege" but because he has put up superb numbers in first class cricket

so what is your problem? you cannot use the legal system to your convenience. you are contradicting yourself.
 
Rameez Raja is basically a prisoner of his changing accounts.

He told Qayyum that he knew nothing about fixing in the team in the 1990s.

He then wrote 25 months ago that he saw fixing all around him in the period prior to being appointed captain in 1995.

He can't wriggle off the hook for this. Rameez either has made a miracle recovery from premature dementia, which robbed him of his memories for years, or he lied to Qayyum.

Doesn't matter to me. He probably played it safe when he was playing as I described earlier.

People shouldn't be attacked for not reporting fixing. It's difficult as I said, lots of cricketers do the same thing. Look at Mcullum he reported it later even though he knew about it before, and then the guy he accused walked away anyway. I'm sure people must have known there was fixing when the trio were fixing but didn't blab. Tbh a lot of people who noticed fixing will not say anything about it there entire life. At least Rameez comes out and says it now, which I prefer, if he's comfortable saying it now and wasn't before that's fine IMO. If Rameez had said anything earlier during his playing days, might have been detrimental to his career which is hardly fair, why should the non-fixer be punished?

We should have a no tolerance policy for fixing, but we should be sympathetic to those who aren't fixing playing around guys who are fixing. It's a difficult situation. And I bet a lot of players are scared to testify against bookies given what happened to Cronje. To simply disregard what Rameez is saying based on not providing evidence during the Qayuum report is totally unfair. He isn't the one who fixed.
 
I agree with Ramiz raja. Salman butt being the ring leader of the fixing fiasco is the biggest reason to keep him out. If he has the courage and cunningness to dodge the rules bring shame to the nation in his very first series as captain. This guy is worse than ASIF the serial offender. Also if they give chance to butt then it is an injustice to Sami, shehzad, Shaan, imam, Umar Amin and jaahid even fawad Alam.
 
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

its funny how you are talking about the legal system and copy posting quotes from the judge but yet you have a problem with the pcb allowing butt to return to the team? :))

you cannot use the legal system to your convenience. you are contradicting yourself.

You've dodged my replies to your false assertions in #40 so let's try again: Do you accept that your claims that, a) Amir had equal culpability with Asif and Butt and b) Amir's age was not a factor in the case, are factually incorrect because neither of those claims were supported by the ICC tribunal and criminal trial verdict ?

It is ignorance to say the trio were the same, Butt's culpability was proven to be the greatest in the criminal trial where guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. He was given the longest criminal sentence out of all the trio and was described by the judge as the ringleader. I don't know why its impossible for those on the other side of the argument to see this - a court of law and ICC tribunal made that differentiation not me or any PP poster. The only reason Butt didn't get a life ban was because at the time the trio was sentenced the maximum punishment the ICC could give according to their Code was 5 years.

lets face the facts. he was NOT banned for life from international cricket so now that his ban is over he is free to be selected

so what is your problem?
You seem to have comprehension issues - I've said twice I've no issues with Salman Butt making a living playing domestic cricket. Obviously you cannot retroactively life ban him now that he's made his return. The PCB should've life banned him and Asif back in 2010. But there's no legal obligation on the PCB to recall Butt to the national team. You can easily make a cricketing argument to exclude Butt because he was a mediocre opener in internationals to begin with. Don't quote me his domestic stats - they mean nothing when he's a proven failure at international level. Neither do I think he'd be a positive influence in the dressing room given he's a proven liar and corrupter. After the PSL scandal, this is not the time to be reintegrating Butt.

If that's not clear enough then I can't help you any further.

and he is not getting selected for the PAK A team due to "class privilege" but because he has put up superb numbers in first class cricket

Damn right Butt benefits from privilege and social connections. You tell me how such a mediocre cricketer has survived all these years with a pathetic Test average home and away, and who despite being a ringleader of spot fixing is then GIVEN THE CAPTAINCY AGAIN in domestic cricket AFTER the ban.
 
[MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]

its funny how you are talking about the legal system and copy posting quotes from the judge but yet you have a problem with the pcb allowing butt to return to the team? :))

lets face the facts. he was NOT banned for life from international cricket so now that his ban is over he is free to be selected

and he is not getting selected for the PAK A team due to "class privilege" but because he has put up superb numbers in first class cricket

so what is your problem? you cannot use the legal system to your convenience. you are contradicting yourself.

Butt has a Test batting average of thirty. That's 30 - not 300! Yes, that's all he could manage at a prime. Imran Farhat, yes this guy :farhat has a better record in Test cricket.

His 'superb numbers' in first-class cricket are still worse than a). Imam-ul-Haq and b). Fakhar Zaman last season if we only take openers into account. And if superb numbers in FC cricket negate a boatload of failures in international cricket then Kamran Akmal should be the most aggrieved person on the planet.

Plus, Butt is 33 years old and Inzi had previously mentioned that the A team would be for youngsters, not for TTFs to come and bash Zimbabwe (that's who the next A series is against) and prove themselves to be the new age Bradman. It's abundantly clear why he is being considered for selection.
 
Rameez Raja is basically a prisoner of his changing accounts.

He told Qayyum that he knew nothing about fixing in the team in the 1990s.

He then wrote 25 months ago that he saw fixing all around him in the period prior to being appointed captain in 1995.

He can't wriggle off the hook for this. Rameez either has made a miracle recovery from premature dementia, which robbed him of his memories for years, or he lied to Qayyum.

Memory loss and then remembered everything. A bit like the good old Bollywood films.
 
If you selected Amir, you can't not select Butt and Asif if they deserve to be selected on the basis of present form, fitness and discipline and participation in anti-corruption lectures as much as we personally despise these individuals.
 
I'll never forget Butt's press conferences after the first two test losses against England.

He was adamant that YK and Moyo were not needed and that the youngsters were enough.

I certainly wouldn't employ him if he had cheated my company. As for Amir, there are mitigating circumstances and he at least admitted his guilt and went through rehab and worked with the ICC..

BUT spot fixing aside, I never rated Butt as a batsman and can't think for the life of me why they would consider picking a guy in his low-mid 30's with a below average record as opposed to any youngsters
 
I agree with Ramiz. We should do a poll on this. I really don't want Salman Butt in the team. This is real short-termism and idiocy from the PCB.
 
amir is as much of a corrupt crook as butt and asif. please spare us the hypocrisy of using different standards to judge amir and butt.

Butt was the captain of the team. Don't you think leaders should be held to higher standards of conduct?
 
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