Ravichandran Ashwin, the greatest spinner to come out of India?

[Hitman]

Laughable that he went from Murali all the way to Ashwin, skipping everyone from Qadir to Saqlain to Herath along the way.

Yea, the legend who averages around 48 away from home?

 

[Xoib]

from the spinners I have seen since the 90's he is in the second tier along with Kumble, Saqlain,Swann and Herath. Warne and Murali being the only ones in the first tier.He will never be as good as Warne and Murali no matter what his record looks like

 

[Xoib]

Yea, the legend who averages around 48 away from home?

the thing is Qadir would often be targetted by home umpires and would get robbed of many wickets which was fair enough since he benefited the most from home umpires it seemed there was un unwritten agreement between home umpires and skipper "keep this bloke quiet" since he along with his home umpires always wreck us when we play at their backyard.

 

[Hitman]

the thing is Qadir would often be targetted by home umpires and would get robbed of many wickets which was fair enough since he benefited the most from home umpires it seemed there was un unwritten agreement between home umpires and skipper "keep this bloke quiet" since he along with his home umpires always wreck us when we play at their backyard.

And that made him average almost 48 away from home? That too when posters keep harping about Ashwin's average of 33.23 away from home? )

 

[Xoib]

And that made him average almost 48 away from home? That too when posters keep harping about Ashwin's average of 33.23 away from home? )

yes that played a part. I am not a big fan of Qadir he was very talented but very loose and a difficult personality to handle unless there was Imran in his ear shouting encouragement/7 he would not have the drive and would lose focus. His record is apt for his output on field.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=134551]Muhammad10[/MENTION] Ashwin is on another level in full flow. The flight the loop the dip. Only Saqi comes close but Ashwin is overtaking him. Qadir was too inconsistent for me. Ashwin will overtake Kapil as best Indian all rounder ever and will get close to I.K the way he is going. biggest matchwinner in Asia by a mile. 25 5fers its unbelieveable

 

[Adil_94]

Yasir is a homeless mans Qadir. One dimensional can only bowl on slow wickets. In England the first test at Lords he didnt really even spin the ball. England batters just had a mentl block against him from the UAE and were expecting Warne esque spin but kept getting out to straight ones. Then he got smashed the next Two test before getting a 200 run lead to bowl to on a spin friendly Oval track and he did the job. He cant contain or bowl dry and when the pitch doesnt help him he is a liability like he showed in Australia.

 

[Bilal7]

Yea, the legend who averages around 48 away from home?

If I'm picking a HTB, I'll pick the one who destroyed the greatest team in the world at home, rather than the guy who struggles on anything that isn't a total rank turner.

Qadir bowled out the Windies for 53 at home. Ashwin couldn't get through Renshaw and Marsh in his last innings and was mediocre against England as well. He's been outbowled by Jadeja, Panesar, Swann and now Rashid, O'Keefe and Lyon at home.

The likes of Abdul Qadir and Anil Kumble were real HTBs and destroyed even the best teams at home. Ashwin hasn't had to face Pakistan, the best spin-playing side in the world, was terrible against a good English side in 2012 and now he's struggled to bowl out average teams on flattish tracks.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=134551]Muhammad10[/MENTION] Ashwin is on another level in full flow. The flight the loop the dip. Only Saqi comes close but Ashwin is overtaking him. Qadir was too inconsistent for me. Ashwin will overtake Kapil as best Indian all rounder ever and will get close to I.K the way he is going. biggest matchwinner in Asia by a mile. 25 5fers its unbelieveable

Hold it right there! Ashwin is great but he's no MAHARAJ [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] )

 

[MMHS]

Statistically yes.

But, his monumental stats are built on mostly home or similar wickets in BD, SRL. Besides, he has a tendency of hiding in tougher challenges. IND at home is always formidable, even in 70s as well; in that context, in last 4/5 years he has faced just 2 tough assignments at home - Poms in 2012 & this time Aussies. His home records are also skewed in favour of WI & Kiwi bashing who are not the best tools these days.

Still, 25 5fors & 7 10fors are outstanding in 48 Tests (I think it took Shane more than double Tests to reach there). Haven't seen other greats in their prime, but Kimble played most of his home Tests on Ranchi like wickets - that's great for batting & starts to crumble on post lunch, Day 4 - still he had a stat like 6.5 wickets at 20 with 2.2 economy. This includes some massive scoring draws as well. If I take result matches (no matter who won, 35+ wickets went down); his stats will look like ~8 wickets at ~18 with ~2 economy - that to me more Bradmanish than Ashwin

For example, on last day of Ranchi, don't think that Aussie team of Mark, Steve, Hayden, Martyn & Langer (& Panta, Gilly, Warne, Lee, Gillespie) would have survived 100 overs against Kimble/Bhaji - may be this lot with Handscomb, Marsh, Warner, Renahaw, Maxi & Wade (& Smith) are better ......

 

[Red Devil]

Hold it right there! Ashwin is great but he's no MAHARAJ [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION] [MENTION=47617]Red Devil[/MENTION] )

Ashwin is not fit to tie the shoelaces of the great MAHARAJ )

 

[shaz619]

Ashwin is not fit to tie the shoelaces of the great MAHARAJ )

Legends say if the great MAHARAJ rests his hand on your shoulder and lets out a bit of gas simultaneously, your inner most painful wounds begin to heal, Ashwin MUST pay him a visit to ensure eternal glory in the next match

 

[Hitman]

If I'm picking a HTB, I'll pick the one who destroyed the greatest team in the world at home, rather than the guy who struggles on anything that isn't a total rank turner.

Qadir bowled out the Windies for 53 at home. Ashwin couldn't get through Renshaw and Marsh in his last innings and was mediocre against England as well. He's been outbowled by Jadeja, Panesar, Swann and now Rashid, O'Keefe and Lyon at home.

The likes of Abdul Qadir and Anil Kumble were real HTBs and destroyed even the best teams at home. Ashwin hasn't had to face Pakistan, the best spin-playing side in the world, was terrible against a good English side in 2012 and now he's struggled to bowl out average teams on flattish tracks.

Any normal cricket fan in his senses would rather pick a player who averages 25 odd overall and 33 odd away from home rather than a player who averages 33 odd overall and 48 odd away from home.

 

[Red Devil]

Legends say if the great MAHARAJ rests his hand on your shoulder and lets out a bit of gas simultaneously, your inner most painful wounds begin to heal, Ashwin MUST pay him a visit to ensure eternal glory in the next match

He was only ever able to get wickets because the MAHARAJ allowed him to do so. He must keep the great ruler happy if he wishes to continue and play in his kingdom!

 

[shaz619]

He was only ever able to get wickets because the MAHARAJ allowed him to do so. He must keep the great ruler happy if he wishes to continue and play in his kingdom!

The MAHARAJ of Spinners bestows upon you great a many powers, the mystical blessings enable the wicket taking on thy rank turners and motorways; one can only walk on fire if the MAHARAJ provides them the key to his KINGDOM, pledge your allegiance to him and glory beckons

 

[Bilal7]

Any normal cricket fan in his senses would rather pick a player who averages 25 odd overall and 33 odd away from home rather than a player who averages 33 odd overall and 48 odd away from home.

*ignorant, not normal. It is normal to assume that a spinner who bullied the great West Indies at home is much better than a spinner who gets bullied by Moeen Ali and Shaun Marsh at home.

However, I do respect your perspective. I just hope you realize that by using your logic, Steven Smith is a more superior batsman to Sachin Tendulker.

 

[Bilal7]

The MAHARAJ of Spinners bestows upon you great a many powers, the mystical blessings enable the wicket taking on thy rank turners and motorways; one can only walk on fire if the MAHARAJ provides them the key to his KINGDOM, pledge your allegiance to him and glory beckons

Lol, poor [MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION]. Getting manhandled here.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

That's only cos people are too bored to call out on your hypocrisy Bilal ji.

Atleast have consistent yardsticks.

If Shah had performed against NZ in NZ, you would have been over the moon.

When Maharaj did that, NZ magically became a poor side against spin and performance against them don't count. Then what does that make Yasir who averaged 32 against them in UAE (going by your logic)? Maharaj has done well in whatever little sample he has played.

Same way, you argue Lyon outbowled Ash in Aus 2014. When someone points out both have same stats and one has MORE wickets playing in lesser innings with lesser quality pacers, you ignore that data.

You will argue about Ashwin's performance on flatties (which is fair enough if you are consistent with your viewpoints) but you are blind to Ajmal's chucking which was how he got his records and still hail him as if he was some superhuman. You would say action deteriorated but then if it did, then why didn't Ajmal after failing the test, come back with the old 2009 action, pass the test and rule the world?

We all know the answers to it.

So you my friend, should be the last person to mock someone for being manhandled.

lol.

Cue the incoming irrelevant answers.

 

[Bilal7]

That's only cos people are too bored to call out on your hypocrisy Bilal ji.

Atleast have consistent yardsticks.

If Shah had performed against NZ in NZ, you would have been over the moon.

When Maharaj did that, NZ magically became a poor side against spin and performance against them don't count. Then what does that make Yasir who averaged 32 against them in UAE (going by your logic)? Maharaj has done well in whatever little sample he has played.

Same way, you argue Lyon outbowled Ash in Aus 2014. When someone points out both have same stats and one has MORE wickets playing in lesser innings with lesser quality pacers, you ignore that data.

You will argue about Ashwin's performance on flatties (which is fair enough if you are consistent with your viewpoints) but you are blind to Ajmal's chucking which was how he got his records and still hail him as if he was some superhuman. You would say action deteriorated but then if it did, then why didn't Ajmal after failing the test, come back with the old 2009 action, pass the test and rule the world?

We all know the answers to it.

So you my friend, should be the last person to mock someone for being manhandled.

lol.

Cue the incoming irrelevant answers.

If you call someone out, at least have the guts to let them know. And refer to me by my username.

NZ are a poor side against spin which is why they prepared green lawns to cancel out Shah. They underestimated Maharaj and thought they could get South Africa into a knot if playing on turners but that did not turn out well for them.

That match in the UAE was played on a pitch that offered no assistance for the spinners. I do not claim that Shah is the greatest spinner from Pakistan or a future ATG so I have no problems with saying that he can look ordinary on flat pitches. So in conclusion, New Zealand are a poor team against spin but are good enough to play spinners on green lawns. After losing McCullum, they've only gotten worse.

Lyon and Moeen Ali outbowled Ashwin in Australia and England, no matter which way you look at it. Ashwin not being India's first choice is no one's fault but his. He should stop being garbage overseas and actually win India a game that isn't played on a turner and maybe he'll get to play as the lead spinner overseas.

Ajmal has nothing to do with this thread, his action even less so. Stop creating strawmen in the hopes that it will somehow help mask Ashwin's hopeless performances at home in his last two series. Every time a traditional Indian tracks has been laid out, he's been toothless. At this point, all he is good for is bowling in the fourth innings on rank turners and even then, Jadeja is more threatening.

These answers are "irrelevant"? Do you even understand the meanings of the words you use?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If you call someone out, at least have the guts to let them know. And refer to me by my username.

NZ are a poor side against spin which is why they prepared green lawns to cancel out Shah. They underestimated Maharaj and thought they could get South Africa into a knot if playing on turners but that did not turn out well for them.

That match in the UAE was played on a pitch that offered no assistance for the spinners. I do not claim that Shah is the greatest spinner from Pakistan or a future ATG so I have no problems with saying that he can look ordinary on flat pitches. So in conclusion, New Zealand are a poor team against spin but are good enough to play spinners on green lawns. After losing McCullum, they've only gotten worse.

Lyon and Moeen Ali outbowled Ashwin in Australia and England, no matter which way you look at it. Ashwin not being India's first choice is no one's fault but his. He should stop being garbage overseas and actually win India a game that isn't played on a turner and maybe he'll get to play as the lead spinner overseas.

Ajmal has nothing to do with this thread, his action even less so. Stop creating strawmen in the hopes that it will somehow help mask Ashwin's hopeless performances at home in his last two series. Every time a traditional Indian tracks has been laid out, he's been toothless. At this point, all he is good for is bowling in the fourth innings on rank turners and even then, Jadeja is more threatening.

These answers are "irrelevant"? Do you even understand the meanings of the words you use?

If you call someone out, at least have the guts to let them know. And refer to me by my username.

Ooohhh I am so scared that I am no match for your superior argumentative skills that would crush me to the ground.

What else can be the reason for not quoting you? Lack of guts obviously.

Dude...its a freaking FORUM where everyone can see what everyone posts. I posted in a much debated topic right below your post.

NZ are a poor side against spin which is why they prepared green lawns to cancel out Shah. They underestimated Maharaj and thought they could get South Africa into a knot if playing on turners but that did not turn out well for them.

But surprisingly if the same had happened to Yasir, we know how you would have reacted.

Plus Maharaj did way better in Aus than Yasir. So dismissing Maharaj's achievements while hailing Yasir is flat out illogical.

That match in the UAE was played on a pitch that offered no assistance for the spinners. I do not claim that Shah is the greatest spinner from Pakistan or a future ATG so I have no problems with saying that he can look ordinary on flat pitches. So in conclusion, New Zealand are a poor team against spin but are good enough to play spinners on green lawns. After losing McCullum, they've only gotten worse.

Even if we exclude that flat pitch (where Mark Craig took a 7fer and 3fer), Yasir averages in the 3 matches in that series were:

34
24
48 (that super flat pitch)

Again inconvenient facts I guess.

By the way, I am not blasting Yasir for it. Just using your logic consistently.

Lyon and Moeen Ali outbowled Ashwin in Australia and England, no matter which way you look at it.

Moeen in England yes. More so cos Indian bats lost it mentally. In India, we saw who stands where.

Lyon in Aus in 2014 - Keep your head stuck deep in sand. The very fact that you chose to respond to FACTS in this argument with a generic statement tells me everything.

Lyon outbowled Ash because Bilal said so.

Okay dude. lol.

Ashwin not being India's first choice is no one's fault but his. He should stop being garbage overseas and actually win India a game that isn't played on a turner and maybe he'll get to play as the lead spinner overseas.

Ashwin was dropped in NZ for Joberg fiasco. But in Aus, Kohli wanted to test Karn Sharma.

Ashwin's last performance outside Asia BEFORE being dropped for Adelaide was a 3fer in the only innings he bowled in Oval. Yeah, the same ground where Yasir went wicketless in the first innings. Again, I have no interest in attacking Yasir specifically who was marvellous in 2 tests in England but just using your logic MORE consistently.

Then was dropped for Adelaide cos Kohli went for the jugular and then came back.

As for his performance in general, yes he has to prove and time will tell where he stands.

Ajmal has nothing to do with this thread, his action even less so. Stop creating strawmen in the hopes that it will somehow help mask Ashwin's hopeless performances at home in his last two series. Every time a traditional Indian tracks has been laid out, he's been toothless. At this point, all he is good for is bowling in the fourth innings on rank turners and even then, Jadeja is more threatening.

It only is strawman cos the points I raise are too hot to handle bro.

Shifting the focus from Ajmal's action to Indian turners heh? )

Some sound logic there. Nothing to look into here fellas.

These answers are "irrelevant"? Do you even understand the meanings of the words you use?

As you can see, how easily I have crushed each and every one of your flimsy attempts, I guess I should say irrelevant was BANG ON target.

My responses are not targeted towards you as a person but targeted your arguments, delusions and flat out bias.

I will stop now.

Take some time to introspect.

And please improve your argument skills before calling out others as cowards which you have done twice to me.

Drop mic.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] on

 

[shaz619]

Statistically yes.

But, his monumental stats are built on mostly home or similar wickets in BD, SRL. Besides, he has a tendency of hiding in tougher challenges. IND at home is always formidable, even in 70s as well; in that context, in last 4/5 years he has faced just 2 tough assignments at home - Poms in 2012 & this time Aussies. His home records are also skewed in favour of WI & Kiwi bashing who are not the best tools these days.

Still, 25 5fors & 7 10fors are outstanding in 48 Tests (I think it took Shane more than double Tests to reach there). Haven't seen other greats in their prime, but Kimble played most of his home Tests on Ranchi like wickets - that's great for batting & starts to crumble on post lunch, Day 4 - still he had a stat like 6.5 wickets at 20 with 2.2 economy. This includes some massive scoring draws as well. If I take result matches (no matter who won, 35+ wickets went down); his stats will look like ~8 wickets at ~18 with ~2 economy - that to me more Bradmanish than Ashwin

For example, on last day of Ranchi, don't think that Aussie team of Mark, Steve, Hayden, Martyn & Langer (& Panta, Gilly, Warne, Lee, Gillespie) would have survived 100 overs against Kimble/Bhaji - may be this lot with Handscomb, Marsh, Warner, Renahaw, Maxi & Wade (& Smith) are better ......

You have to give him credit after the way he responded to the AUS Test defeat by helping his team win, it was a defining moment in a sense for him

 

[Bilal7]

[MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION], you are embarrassing yourself. I am not your mate where you can refer to me by anything other than my chosen username. Learn to do so. I am also not here 24/7 and was done with this thread until Dharamsala so your ridiculous post would have been missed. Therefore, let me know when you are debating with me, it's basic forum courtesy. Learn to do so.

You can keep dreaming about what I may or may not have done but the fact is that Yasir was nullified by the green pitches and bowled around 10 overs in the only match he played there. Maharaj did very well in New Zealand but he's only played six matches so even if he is a future great, he has to get some matches under his belt before people start rating him as such.

Lyon won Australia a match in that series. Ashwin didn't win India a single session. What part of this do you find difficult to understand? Kohli wanted to try a different spinner because Ashwin is absolutely rubbish overseas.

This thread is about Ashwin, what does Ajmal have to do with any of this when he is no longer a contemporary of his? The pitches that Ashwin plays on definitely matter because they are the only reason he has had success thus far.

Wow, this might just take the cake for the most embarrassing post in PP history. Ouch. My "argument skills" do not need improving because I don't come here to argue, I come here to discuss cricket.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION], you are embarrassing yourself. I am not your mate where you can refer to me by anything other than my chosen username. Learn to do so. I am also not here 24/7 and was done with this thread until Dharamsala so your ridiculous post would have been missed. Therefore, let me know when you are debating with me, it's basic forum courtesy. Learn to do so.

You can keep dreaming about what I may or may not have done but the fact is that Yasir was nullified by the green pitches and bowled around 10 overs in the only match he played there. Maharaj did very well in New Zealand but he's only played six matches so even if he is a future great, he has to get some matches under his belt before people start rating him as such.

Lyon won Australia a match in that series. Ashwin didn't win India a single session. What part of this do you find difficult to understand? Kohli wanted to try a different spinner because Ashwin is absolutely rubbish overseas.

This thread is about Ashwin, what does Ajmal have to do with any of this when he is no longer a contemporary of his? The pitches that Ashwin plays on definitely matter because they are the only reason he has had success thus far.

Wow, this might just take the cake for the most embarrassing post in PP history. Ouch. My "argument skills" do not need improving because I don't come here to argue, I come here to discuss cricket.

Yeah will start mentioning you by your username in the future.

As for the rest of your post, haha, no need to respond cos there is nothing to respond.

As for argumentative skills, whenever discussion happens, opinions and analysis are made. And when it happens, posters use certain yardsticks mixed in with logical reasoning to explain why they believe in XYZ.

That is called argumentative skills or debating skills or whatever.

We all come to forums to discuss cricket and put forth our arguments from time to time.

 

[Sachin136]

[MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION], you are embarrassing yourself. I am not your mate where you can refer to me by anything other than my chosen username. Learn to do so. I am also not here 24/7 and was done with this thread until Dharamsala so your ridiculous post would have been missed. Therefore, let me know when you are debating with me, it's basic forum courtesy. Learn to do so.

You can keep dreaming about what I may or may not have done but the fact is that Yasir was nullified by the green pitches and bowled around 10 overs in the only match he played there. Maharaj did very well in New Zealand but he's only played six matches so even if he is a future great, he has to get some matches under his belt before people start rating him as such.

Lyon won Australia a match in that series. Ashwin didn't win India a single session. What part of this do you find difficult to understand? Kohli wanted to try a different spinner because Ashwin is absolutely rubbish overseas.

This thread is about Ashwin, what does Ajmal have to do with any of this when he is no longer a contemporary of his? The pitches that Ashwin plays on definitely matter because they are the only reason he has had success thus far.

Wow, this might just take the cake for the most embarrassing post in PP history. Ouch. My "argument skills" do not need improving because I don't come here to argue, I come here to discuss cricket.

That's because Ashwin didn't play in the match where Lyon got that 12-fer.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Statistically yes.

But, his monumental stats are built on mostly home or similar wickets in BD, SRL. Besides, he has a tendency of hiding in tougher challenges. IND at home is always formidable, even in 70s as well; in that context, in last 4/5 years he has faced just 2 tough assignments at home - Poms in 2012 & this time Aussies. His home records are also skewed in favour of WI & Kiwi bashing who are not the best tools these days.

Still, 25 5fors & 7 10fors are outstanding in 48 Tests (I think it took Shane more than double Tests to reach there). Haven't seen other greats in their prime, but Kimble played most of his home Tests on Ranchi like wickets - that's great for batting & starts to crumble on post lunch, Day 4 - still he had a stat like 6.5 wickets at 20 with 2.2 economy. This includes some massive scoring draws as well. If I take result matches (no matter who won, 35+ wickets went down); his stats will look like ~8 wickets at ~18 with ~2 economy - that to me more Bradmanish than Ashwin

For example, on last day of Ranchi, don't think that Aussie team of Mark, Steve, Hayden, Martyn & Langer (& Panta, Gilly, Warne, Lee, Gillespie) would have survived 100 overs against Kimble/Bhaji - may be this lot with Handscomb, Marsh, Warner, Renahaw, Maxi & Wade (& Smith) are better ......

Kumble averaged 6.4 wickets per result game in home. If you take 90s pitches, it goes to 6.6 wickets per result game in home.

 

[Bilal7]

That's because Ashwin didn't play in the match where Lyon got that 12-fer.

Once again, that is Ashwin's fault and no one else's.

 

[Slog]

That's only cos people are too bored to call out on your hypocrisy Bilal ji.

Atleast have consistent yardsticks.

If Shah had performed against NZ in NZ, you would have been over the moon.

When Maharaj did that, NZ magically became a poor side against spin and performance against them don't count. Then what does that make Yasir who averaged 32 against them in UAE (going by your logic)? Maharaj has done well in whatever little sample he has played.

Same way, you argue Lyon outbowled Ash in Aus 2014. When someone points out both have same stats and one has MORE wickets playing in lesser innings with lesser quality pacers, you ignore that data.

You will argue about Ashwin's performance on flatties (which is fair enough if you are consistent with your viewpoints) but you are blind to Ajmal's chucking which was how he got his records and still hail him as if he was some superhuman. You would say action deteriorated but then if it did, then why didn't Ajmal after failing the test, come back with the old 2009 action, pass the test and rule the world?

We all know the answers to it.

So you my friend, should be the last person to mock someone for being manhandled.

lol.

Cue the incoming irrelevant answers.

Poor comments re Ajmal.

Ajmals best period came when he was bowling fair legally and to the eye his action was fine.

Also he was almost 40 so with a remodelled action at that age it would always have been difficult.

Finally he was past it anyway chucking or not. In his last few series he was probably at his chucking peak to the point where he was embarrassing to watch. However statistically and impact wise he also had his worst time period. If chucking was the reason for his wickets then before his ban he would have been doing the best in the career but arguably he was putting out the worst performances of his career then

 

[Slog]

That's because Ashwin didn't play in the match where Lyon got that 12-fer.

Tbh that is no excuse

The Indian team management (who clearly are more knowledgable than anyone in the forum) made a cricketing decision and went with the guy who felt would perform better. Going by ashwins performances overseas the more realistic assumption is to make he would have had no major positive impact

The only one st fault for Ashwin not playing certain matches is Ashwin himself due to his poor overseas performances generally.

In fact if anything I believe Ashwin was spared by being dropped for some of these matches in Australia and England otherwise his statistics in these countries would have taken an even bigger hit

 

[MMHS]

You have to give him credit after the way he responded to the AUS Test defeat by helping his team win, it was a defining moment in a sense for him

I do give him credit, not not as All time best Indian spinner.

 

[MMHS]

Kumble averaged 6.4 wickets per result game in home. If you take 90s pitches, it goes to 6.6 wickets per result game in home.

I think, he might have under performed in few result matches which I can't recall, but more or less, he used to bowl 70+ overs at around 2 to 2.2 for 7 wickets. Also, those days IND often played with 5 bowlers, which probably distributed wickets. Still 6.5 wickets at that average & economy on a better batting surface & far better batsmen of spin is almost unmatched, may be overall, only Murali was better compared to Kumble in India.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Poor comments re Ajmal.

Ajmals best period came when he was bowling fair legally and to the eye his action was fine.

Also he was almost 40 so with a remodelled action at that age it would always have been difficult.

Finally he was past it anyway chucking or not. In his last few series he was probably at his chucking peak to the point where he was embarrassing to watch. However statistically and impact wise he also had his worst time period. If chucking was the reason for his wickets then before his ban he would have been doing the best in the career but arguably he was putting out the worst performances of his career then

This is one topic we both have a disagreement but here's the thing:

Regarding chucking, I don't throw out names just like that. I really dig in and see whether extension happens and then I talk about whether someone is a chucker or not or a potential chucker.

When Bilal Asif was reported for dodgy action, in multiple forums, I stated that this guy will very likely be cleared even when many were doubtful (cos that was the time chuckers were banned left, right and centre). As it turned out, Bilal Asif was cleared. His action was clean cos you could see the slow mos where there was no bend.

Now take Ajmal's action from 2009 dismissal:





You can slow mo this video at 0.25x and see too - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIDlBBYpnNA

Ajmal was always a chucker bro. Trust me on this. If you can show me one Youtube video of Ajmal where he was clean, I will be open to changing my view.

There is a reason why I distrust Bhajji's action too. Its not because everyone says so. Its cos my analysis says so. There may have been times when he was ok but he is a dodgy case (even in the past).

Many here wondered why Hafeez was clocked 35 degrees and it can't be right. If you go and slow mo his videos, you would see some massive extension which was hidden by his quick arm movement.

Use this method of analysis and you will be right more often than not regarding chucking.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think, he might have under performed in few result matches which I can't recall, but more or less, he used to bowl 70+ overs at around 2 to 2.2 for 7 wickets. Also, those days IND often played with 5 bowlers, which probably distributed wickets. Still 6.5 wickets at that average & economy on a better batting surface & far better batsmen of spin is almost unmatched, may be overall, only Murali was better compared to Kumble in India.

I am not disagreeing with the Kumble is better part (I agree for a different reason) but if you look at data and circumstances, everything is not so black and white.

1. First of all, Ashwin too had had periods of extreme highs and lows. In 2012, he couldn't land the ball right let alone get batsmen out. It was a technical fault. These days, he is again poor even on turners. If you take out these poor performance series, his numbers would be staggering.

2. 90s pitches were different from 00s pitches. Moreover while Kumble had to bowl to greater players of spin, it is ALSO true that Indian batting was invincible at home which meant they could pile on runs against anyone (for most part) and bowlers would have scoreboard pressure to attack too.

3. As for dismantling ATG lineups, while it is harder, its not a black and white issue. Venkatapathy Raju averages 4.5 wickets in result games at home. Average of 23. In won games, he averages over 5 wickets. Average of 20 or below I think. He even has dismantled ATG Aussie lineups at home.

Now does anyone think that he is on par with Ash and Jaddu? Highly unlikely.

Its all complicated.

4. If you look at Kumble's and Bhajji's numbers against a top spin playing team like SL home or away....there will be a BIG difference. Both of them destroyed SL at home but against the same team away, not so much. And its not like they played SL on pattas in 00s (though in 90s Kumble played in pattas against SL and in 00s he played in pattas against Pak which is why I never take his averages in SL and Pakistan literally).

So all in all...its a complex thing.

Kumble is ahead for me for his achievements overseas and for that wonderful 2003 tour of Aus. Ashwin doesn't have a series of that stature. Time will tell where he stands.

Watching both bowl, if I am very honest, I feel Ashwin is more skilled. But his flat track weakness is a hurdle which he has to cross. Let's see.

 

[shaz619]

Ashwin with a match winning breakthrough , that's is the game for India. Once again responds to the haters with a left hook while doing the rope a dope @Cheif Destroyer

 

[Zak_Fan]

Even a half fit Ashwin is proving to be a game changer.

 

[shaz619]

Even a half fit Ashwin is proving to be a game changer.

Ashwin is immortal like Hulkamania brother