If the OP could post the concise article here, then you should consider affording the same level of discourse here. The PDF should rightly be posted as your reference, but you should have faith in summarising the key refutations of the OP's points rather than throwing the whole 38 pages into the ring.
Lol, OP just copy/pasted the article from an Ahmedi website and I posted a link to its refutation. I don't see much difference in copy/pasting an entire article and pasting a link of another. And I bet if OP's article was converted into a PDF file, even that would take at least 20-25 Pages, since the articles are pretty much the same length.
If I'd wanted I could say: Read this book - It won't take the debate further unless I Summarise it's key points or relevance to the debate.
I didn’t copy/paste it because if I did without editing the quotes then it'd look messy. Editing take a long time and I can't commit that much time right now hence the link. Also, I didnt really want to involve myself in a discussion due to the lack of time and my busy schedule. So this will probably be my last post for now. Furthermore, If you have a problem with me posting the link then you should also have a problem with OP’s copy/paste job!
So Ibn-Hurwah narrates. The Quran's pre-requisites for marriage, other Hadith and his own Pupil disagree.
Rather, Aisha's (ra) own account is acceptable to me and i'm pretty sure Prophet saw, who married her knows the ahkamat of Quran more than all of us combined.
Agreed. Which is fine as we aren't debating this, but debating whether the marriage took place at the age ibn Hurwah says it did.
Many would conclude that based on the Prophets propensity to marry women of intellect, it would be inconceivable that he would marry a pre-pubescent 6 year old without her own permission and thus act against the Quran.
That’s nonsense since young age does not mean that woman’s devoid of intellect, in fact, one of the greatest benefits from this union of Prophet saw with Aisha (ra) that the Scholars derive is her ability to learn, memorize, and transmit Islam to future generations since she grew up in the house of Prophet saw from a young age and was the first hand witness to his life. Being young allowed her to memorize Prophet saw’s sayings & actions of past and present with accuracy and pass it to the future generations. Furthermore, in terms of numbers, she is the second greatest narrator of hadith literature.
She could; But that is what every married lady is entitled to. Strawman alert!
The issue is whether the Quran gives permission for Parents to marry their children at a pre-pubescent age. It doesn't and you know it.
If a cultural practice existed then, then it existed in tribes in the time of Jahiliyah, and should tell you why such Hadith may have been narrated and why the Quran did not condone the practice but instead stated clearly against it. Note too the emphasis on Education in the Quranic verse too.
No evidence exists that such pre-pubescent marriages took place in a an Islamic context at the time of the Prophet... Well unless you believe ibn Hurwah over the Quran's own conditions for Consent and Marriage.
I disagree that that occurred at the age you believe, as it would logically be an act that went against this Quranic verse:
4 : 6 - Pickthall (But all translations say the same essentially - openburhan.com)
Please don’t falsely put words in Quran that are not there lest you be accounted for it. I’ll present you one ayah and we’ll see who’s basing his arguments on straw man.
Allah says in Surah Al Talaq [65,4]:
And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed periods), if you have doubt (about their period), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death][] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they laydown their burden, and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him
Now we know that the only women that do not menstruate are young girls that haven’t reached the age of puberty OR women with some kind of disease.
Thus, for those of us who take the ahadith and arab culture into account will accept this ayah as a proof that pre-pubescent girls CAN be married since their waiting period after divorce is mentioned in Quran.
Adding to this, how can a pre-pubescent girl decide or have decided for herself, who she is to marry and be of sound judgment?
How can she undertake divorce proceedings at that age should she change her mind? Remember, the marriage begins from when it takes place, not this "Marry now as a child; Consummate as an Adult" angle...
We know people reach sexual maturity often before reaching mental maturity or a state of "Sound Judgement"
But hey don't use Aql, or Sound Judgement, because Ibn-Hurwah narrated it and Bukhari included it, it must be 100 percent true, yeah?
Blah blah blah. No sound person would marry his young daughter without a valid reason. And neither does Islam "encourages" marriage of pre-pubescent girls just as Islam does not encourage slavery. Rather, it regulates what needs to be done should a man gives his pre-pubescent daughter in nikah. He cannot send her off to her husband until she has become physically mature.
Lol - So Islam condones marrying women solely due to the first sign of Mensturation? Nothing to do with Mental Maturity?
Stop acting like an idiot ‘cause people can also argue that girls as old as 20 nowadays are not "mentally" mature enough to be married. It’s all subjective.
My My, what a nuanced view of Islam and Marriage you have!
Both Mental and Physical maturity plays a key part as quoted. You think 6 year-olds are capable of sound judgement when it comes to marriage, then good luck to you.
I do not think that a person that young is capable of making sound decisions or should be married to an older person. However, if I was in shoes of Sayyidna Abu bakar (ra) then even I’d want to marry my daughter to messenger of Allah saw, irrespective of her age.
The Quran makes clear you marry a lady that can take care of financial affairs and run a household
Can a 6-year old do this? In any Culture, that is far-fetched in the extreme.
Again, just because it is "allowed" doesn't mean it's "encouraged", learn the difference.
So you missed the point. Brother Ayman is so determined to prove this thing about 9 year olds being physically mature, he neglects to mention that the Quran holds:
Quran also limits the # of women to marry to number 4 but it's a well known fact that Prophet saw married 12 or 13 women, so are you going to accuse the Prophet saw of going against Quran (waliyaudhobillah)?
Marriage is when one Physically and mentally matures.
Now we all don't believe that for a man, pubic hair or for a lady, the act of menstruation is an automatic normal indicator, let alone Islamic indicator, that she he or she is ready for marriage.
Yet let us assume that yes, a 6 year old, on account of reaching Mensturation, is thus allowed to be married...
How would that indicate Sound Judgement on her part, if she has to wait 3 years before allegedly reaching sexual Maturity?
You couldn't make it up... Oh wait; someone already did.
Actually, the one missing the point is you who thinks that there aren’t exceptions to general rules. And this isn’t the first time you’ve done that, you always do this. You think that just because general rule says one thing everything “must” follow that general principle.
This isn’t the case in practical life and certainly isn’t the case in Islamic Sharia. Life isn’t black and white there are many shades of grey in between.
So yes, the general rule is to marry people when they’re mature physically & mentally but since prophet saw is an example for ALL of humanity, his life shows us that there was an exception to this general principle supported by Quran.
For valid reasons, a father CAN marry his pre-pubescent daughter but cannot send her off to her husband until she matures. Once again, it isn’t the general rule rather an exception.
Moreover, even for a "mature" virgin woman, father’s permission (if alive) is absolutely necessary. A virgin girl cannot marry a man without her father’s/wali’s approval at any case and it’s his responsibility to marry her off to a suitable man. So even in case of a "mature" virgin girl, her only judgement (assuming it's an arranged marriage) would most likely be the guy's education, looks, or money. This is why it's the father's responsibility to make sure that she marries her off to someone of a sound character along with other qualities.
Oh I do love Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz; Did Hazrat Umar sanction or marry a pre-pubescent 6 year old? No. Neither did the Prophet for that matter. But hey... whatever you want to justify.
I also love it when people shift goalposts - I was referring clealry to the Islamically sanctioned marriages of 6 year old pre-pubescents.
But 6 years old and that too as a pre-pubescent. Tut Tut.
Why is number 6 such a problem? Clearly Quran does not assign a “number” for marriage. It only speaks of "maturity" in the general sense of the word.
Because this shows he is unobjective and thus Unscientific.
No it doesn't. The only thing apparent is your obvious lack of knowledge on the subject.
But Hadith Analysis is a Science, yeah?
Yup, which is based on a sound methodology. I.e. examining the chain of narrators, examining the text of ahadith, and the context of the text.
I bow to his infinite Knowledge. If only we had more Science of the Hadith then we could show Historians and Academics that have given us everything from the Medicine you use, to the Electricity that powers your PC, how it's truly done.
Right, and Muslims have contributed a lot to these sciences historically speaking so don’t understand your rant here.
Without such Science, how else would I be able to know about the Prophet's (PBUH) intimate relations with his wives or indeed that dipping a fly completely into my food if it lands upon it, is necessary, as one wing carries the illness and the other the cure.
And why would Prophet’s saw intimate relations with his wives be problematic? Or do you think that sex education is not important to a human’s life? As for the hadith regarding the fly, how about reading some scientific research instead of cracking ignorant jokes like a blind fool? Try this:
http://www.quranandscience.com/sunnah-a-science/274-housefly-falls-into-ones-drink.html
Jokes aside, a true science updates it's methodology in light of new thoughts, ideas and evidence - Go ask a Real Scientist.
Does science also deviates from it's basics? Advancement based on sound knowledge and proof is never looked down in Islamic Scholarship rather deviancy based on little knowledge is.
We can't or are not allowed to countenance that maybe the Scholars back then didn't have the benefit of Historical, Religious, and Contextual Hindsight in determining their opinions. Which is what they are. Their Opinions. Well Some of the Scholars.
While I agree with this to a certain extent, I disagree that "every" single aspect of the religion has to be reinterpreted and especially without any sound knowledge & methodology.
They did the best they could but they are not beyond error or questioning. Imam Maliki admitted as much, but hey, lets ignore this humble part of the first man to attempt to even compile the Hadith, hey?
But the problem is you don’t even have a criteria for judging hadith, your pseudo critique is “it doesn’t make sense to my ‘aql’” and “they must be influenced by factor so and so”. Without ever quoting any literature to substantiate points you pull out of thin air.
Now let me ask you this, on what basis do you accept a report? If you say based on“aql” then how about if I tell you something which does not contradict Quran at all, and sounds logical? How will you determine that my “logical” saying is NOT an authentic saying reported from person x,y,z in past but rather is fabricated by me?
Or will you just accept it because it’s an intelligent saying, so it must be true?
Or better yet, lets ignore any other School in that time-period that disagreed with the 4 main Schools - Only the 4 are right yeah?
Well unless you're Shia...
I can write an essay on this but I just don't have the time nor am I motivated enough...
