Real age of Hazrat Aisha

[Tapori]

Who told you that? Did you just made that up?

I did. Definitely. I'm one of the K's.... Oh noes!

But you should consider:

When it comes to Islamic Philosophical History Analysed objectively - That is free from Sectarianism - You find that Islamic History is not just the 4 Schools and the Shia Schools. Read Majid Fakhry's Introduction to Islamic Philosophy. Unless you think an Academic is inferior to a Scholar...

There are others; But suffice it to say, We focus on Sectarian funded Sheikhs, from India to Saudi, rather than pure unobjective Academia... Including discounting views from non-Muslims even when they are evidenced based... They don't understand yeah?

There are commonalities between them, and then their are disagreements between key Indivuals Such as the great Philsophers/Scholars such as Avicenna, Averroes and Ghazzali. There works are rarely discussed. i wonder why?

And other Schools, that have added Valid discourse to Islam; Just because they aren't prominent now doesn't mean their points are any less valid.

Even if none of the above ever existed, it would be nonsensical to blindly follow the same Schools without countenancing they might be wrong. That's Unislamic Arrogance. It leads to what the Catholic Church was in the 1600's. Imprisoning Galileo for saying the world went around the sun...

"You fool look; The Sun clearly goes around us and the Earth - to say otherwise is Blasphemy"
"The Earth is flat"

etc.

In Answer to your question:

Well, Hazrat Umar Farooq for a start. What sect/school did he follow?

Later, the Muta'zalites. Then the Kharj'ites.

And Al-Kindi one of the greatest Scientists of Islam... If he'd been preoccupied with the Hadith he would never have investigated much in the way of Science, as the Myopic Hadith Supporters (Those that agree with a school 100 percent to the point that All Hadith have to be followed if they are deemed Authentic and no-one is allowed to question the original Scholars, despite them constantly refining the method themselves..) opposed not only him and his work but his early Philosophy.

But according to you in a previous thread you kind of implied, I have to follow one school 100 percent... by admonishing me for bringing the Muta'azilite group up in the Isa (PBUH) Returns thread.

Just because you agree with one persons view/Philosophy on one aspect doesn't imply you agree with everything said person/group says.

 

[azhar329]

@tapori:


In the section: In answer to your question: Maybe Ive misread etc etc did you state that Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) first followed the mutazalites and then the khawarij ? (audhubillah)

 

[Tapori]

^ Azhar329 - Thank you for your sincere honesty.

I was not implying that at all; The two points were separate. Sorry, hope you read ARF's question in which he asked about those not following Cannonical Hadith, i mentioned Hazrat Umar, and then the two groups who also focussed on the Quran, as the key battle of ideas at the time was about how to interpret the Quran -

Maybe Hazrat Umar did follow one of those mentioned, maybe he didn't.

My point regarding him, was that can anyone tell me which sect/school he did follow?

If not why not? Surely this should make things clearer, that a Scholalrly Consensus should not and cannot be allowed to be closed to scrutiny; In it's methodology, it's consensus and any part of it. Not just by us laymen but by the Scholars too!

Read non-sectarian unbiased books (in as much as they can be) about the groups you seem to think are Shaitaani. You'll be surprised to know Modern Sunni thinking has it's roots in them and is influenced by them both. That's fact.

Look at how Philosophers such as Ghazali debated with his Muslim Contemporaries that he disagreed with.
Look at how Scholars from even non-Muslim Faiths, were encouraged to debate in Baghdad with prominent Muslim Scholars at the time.

Too often Scholars are Sectarian and incredibly political; If they were truly of a Scientific mind, they would declare their bias before commenting and show where their bias may affect their opinion and countenance that they could be wrong. Simple.

That way everyone is better informed. Alas, I suspect many Scholars are trained by and for Political Sectarian ends. The Quest for Knowledge takes a back seat when a country like Saudi wants to only fund and spread their views; Same with Iran, or any other sects.

If Scholars truly wanted to be Scholars, they would encourage people to challenge them and their orthodoxies without labelling anyone that makes a valid point against them as K, or this or that.

 

[Tapori]

mutazalites and then the khawarij ? (audhubillah)

See this is exactly the point.

Why do you say that? What is wrong in what they thought? Did you ever consider that someone might label your views with such a parenthesis too?

I disagree entirely with Shia Philosophy and in many cases their conduct; I have no right to imply they are Shaitaani and thus not engage in debate with them or label them solely as non-muslim.

Allah will Judge us.

 

[azhar329]

@tapori:


Brother, there is an authentic hadith which states that the khawarij are the dogs of the Hell Fire!!! Now you can see why I said audhubillah.

And Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) was one of the ten companions who were promised Jannah. He followed what the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) came with, simple as that. He didnt follow any movement which came after the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam); he followed the sunnah.

As far as other groups/sects; yes only Allah will judge them but if they go against the sunnah in terms of aqeedah, practice etc then their mistakes should be highlighted (which the ulema do).

If you're not going to say anything then this can cause chaos. For example; how would you feel if a nation of islam member or an ahmadi lead the taraweeah prayer at the Kabaa ?

 

[Tapori]

^ That is the point!

Look, I disagree with your views/favoured scholars view about the reliability and necessity of the Hadith in it's current form. Are you going to say I'm not Muslim or prevent me from debating by labelling me a K or that I will burn in hell fire?

Is that Scientific to you? No, of course not. You debate the points raised.

Would I be prevented from leading a prayer?

The whole point of that is to foster harmony; When we pray, we pray as one.

The issue starts when we start saying:

"He's a Shia I ain't behind him"
"He did this x y z"
"He believes this x y z"

Brother, there is an authentic hadith which states that the khawarij are the dogs of the Hell Fire!!! Now you can see why I said audhubillah.

That's fine. Do you agree the Kharji'ites, which were not even around during the Prophets time IIRC; would disagree with that Hadith?

Did you or the Ulemaa consider:

Who wrote it - Who narrated it - Where it was narrated - when it was narrated - What were the politics of the time it was narrated - Which Imam Compiled it and which school did he follow?

Can you not see that someone in authority clearly benefits from admonishing a group that opposes them in Islam, and saying the Prophet said it?

Maybe the Kharj'ites are wrong; But wouldn't you rather read their views, and decide for yourself? Rather than rely on Scholars which were anything but unbiased.

Remember, true science is unbiased in as much as possible - Note too the tensions of that period. Shia'ism and the other gorups which later became Sunni, were always at logger heads, in terms of Quranic interpretation, Politics and Hadith recording.

As far as other groups/sects; yes only Allah will judge them but if they go against the sunnah in terms of aqeedah, practice then their mistakes should be highlighted (which the ulema do).

Let me tell you something; If the Shia's had not had a strong political movement the Sunni Ulemaa would have declared them non-Muslim years ago for not following the Sunni Standard of what is considered Sunnah.

Going against what? The Sunni Ulemaa's view?

And Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) was one of the ten companions who were promised Jannah. He followed what the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) came with, simple as that. He didnt follow any movement which came after the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam); he followed the sunnah.

That's right. As he knew the Prophet directly! He compiled the volume of the Quran we know today and never asked for the Sunnah to be compiled either then or in the future to determine Religious rulings. -
Don't you think he of all people, would know to write down the Sunnah then? He didn't and that says more than most commentaries on the entire Hadith.

If it was good enough for him, It's good enough for me.

Again I'm not against Hadith per se; they are an Important Historical compilation when in support of the Quran or as a Historical record to an extent.
Yet they tell us more about the people who narrated them and compiled them and their politics and philosophies than those of the Prophet.

So why all these Schools dedicated to different forms of the Sunnah? Why are there allowed to be sects which differ on Hadith, but someone who disagrees with the Hadith Methodology is not considered a Muslim too?

 

[azhar329]

@tapori:


Brother, Im not going to claim that I know everything about the Science of Ahadeeth, compilers, history, conditions, accuracy etc etc because I dont; however, there is a CONSENSUS whether you choose to accept it or not, that certain ahadeeth are deemed as authentic and accepted.

In my view, we should refer back to the ulema who are known for following the Quran and sunnah; (would you go to medical doctors with decades of experience, knowledge and practice who base their opinion on established medical opinion going back hundreds/thousands of years or are you going to refer your condition to students interested in medicine or a minority opinion ?)

And you didnt answer the q re: nation of islam member; how would you feel if he was to lead the prayer at the Haram ?

 

[Tapori]

Brother, Im not going to claim that I know everything about the Science of Ahadeeth, compilers, history, conditions, accuracy etc etc because I dont; however, there is a CONSENSUS whether you choose to accept it or not, that certain ahadeeth are deemed as authentic and accepted.

In my view, we should refer back to the ulema who are known for following the Quran and sunnah; (would you go to medical doctors with decades of experience, knowledge and practice who base their opinion on established medical opinion going back hundreds/thousands of years or are you going to refer your condition to students interested in medicine or a minority opinion ?)

Thank you for the measured and honest response.

A consnensus by who? Sunni's and Shia's differ incredibly, so why not countenance the groups that disagree with them both, as documented in History? What becuase the Shia's and Sunni's ruled against them? That's not very Scientific...

Were just going to have to disagree;

1) You are right about experts; But let me take your doctor analogy:

Would you trust your Doctor to give you the best treatment if he was sponsored by a Big Pharamceutical company, A Particular Private Hospital was sponsoring him, was a Racist, or prevented you knowing about a treatment another medically trained Doctor was offering?

2) As I have said in another thread, I know that many Scholars are very learned gentlemen.

Yet so are Scientists (which is what the ulemaa say they are doing); If you went and challenged a Scientist about a subject he would listen to you and allow you to air your view based on the evidence you provide. If you proved he was wrong he would change his stance.

How many Ulemaa have ever changed a key cornerstone of their stance? Not many.

How many Ulemaa, Scientifically, accept they may be wrong in their Methodology - How many Ulemaa regularly critique their own Methdology when faced with criticism, rather than finding ways to justify their usually sectarian stance (Which is what true scientists do in any field!)

How many ulemaa are free from Sectarian bias? Scientists have to strive for impartiality!
If the evidence was valid and he saw it as logical he would at least countenance he could be wrong on his view.

And you didnt answer the q re: nation of islam member; how would you feel if he was to lead the prayer at the Haram ?

I have absolutely no qualms with praying behind anyone that reads the Salah appropriately. That is the whole point of the term in the Quran about establishing Salah.

We are one before God and all are answerable to Allah. Today I say I'm not praying behind him tomorrow someone might say the same to me.

The moment we start saying he can't lead and they can't come in our Mosque, we go back on what the Quran is trying to achieve IMO.

 

[Tapori]

Finally, The Quran is for everyone; Granted we shouldn't go round making fatwas, but if it is for everyone and it is Allah speaking to us directly, then aren't you glad you don't have to rely on Priesthood...

 

[Black Zero]

nice try to change the history.

 

[Tapori]

nice try to change the history.

And the history is what?

According to you, the History is 100 percent true because...?

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

If the OP could post the concise article here, then you should consider affording the same level of discourse here. The PDF should rightly be posted as your reference, but you should have faith in summarising the key refutations of the OP's points rather than throwing the whole 38 pages into the ring.

Lol, OP just copy/pasted the article from an Ahmedi website and I posted a link to its refutation. I don't see much difference in copy/pasting an entire article and pasting a link of another. And I bet if OP's article was converted into a PDF file, even that would take at least 20-25 Pages, since the articles are pretty much the same length.

If I'd wanted I could say: Read this book - It won't take the debate further unless I Summarise it's key points or relevance to the debate.

I didn’t copy/paste it because if I did without editing the quotes then it'd look messy. Editing take a long time and I can't commit that much time right now hence the link. Also, I didnt really want to involve myself in a discussion due to the lack of time and my busy schedule. So this will probably be my last post for now. Furthermore, If you have a problem with me posting the link then you should also have a problem with OP’s copy/paste job!

So Ibn-Hurwah narrates. The Quran's pre-requisites for marriage, other Hadith and his own Pupil disagree.

Rather, Aisha's (ra) own account is acceptable to me and i'm pretty sure Prophet saw, who married her knows the ahkamat of Quran more than all of us combined.

Agreed. Which is fine as we aren't debating this, but debating whether the marriage took place at the age ibn Hurwah says it did.

Many would conclude that based on the Prophets propensity to marry women of intellect, it would be inconceivable that he would marry a pre-pubescent 6 year old without her own permission and thus act against the Quran.

That’s nonsense since young age does not mean that woman’s devoid of intellect, in fact, one of the greatest benefits from this union of Prophet saw with Aisha (ra) that the Scholars derive is her ability to learn, memorize, and transmit Islam to future generations since she grew up in the house of Prophet saw from a young age and was the first hand witness to his life. Being young allowed her to memorize Prophet saw’s sayings & actions of past and present with accuracy and pass it to the future generations. Furthermore, in terms of numbers, she is the second greatest narrator of hadith literature.

She could; But that is what every married lady is entitled to. Strawman alert!

The issue is whether the Quran gives permission for Parents to marry their children at a pre-pubescent age. It doesn't and you know it.

If a cultural practice existed then, then it existed in tribes in the time of Jahiliyah, and should tell you why such Hadith may have been narrated and why the Quran did not condone the practice but instead stated clearly against it. Note too the emphasis on Education in the Quranic verse too.

No evidence exists that such pre-pubescent marriages took place in a an Islamic context at the time of the Prophet... Well unless you believe ibn Hurwah over the Quran's own conditions for Consent and Marriage.

I disagree that that occurred at the age you believe, as it would logically be an act that went against this Quranic verse:

4 : 6 - Pickthall (But all translations say the same essentially - openburhan.com)

Please don’t falsely put words in Quran that are not there lest you be accounted for it. I’ll present you one ayah and we’ll see who’s basing his arguments on straw man.

Allah says in Surah Al Talaq [65,4]:

And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed periods), if you have doubt (about their period), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death][] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they laydown their burden, and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him​

Now we know that the only women that do not menstruate are young girls that haven’t reached the age of puberty OR women with some kind of disease.

Thus, for those of us who take the ahadith and arab culture into account will accept this ayah as a proof that pre-pubescent girls CAN be married since their waiting period after divorce is mentioned in Quran.

Adding to this, how can a pre-pubescent girl decide or have decided for herself, who she is to marry and be of sound judgment?

How can she undertake divorce proceedings at that age should she change her mind? Remember, the marriage begins from when it takes place, not this "Marry now as a child; Consummate as an Adult" angle...

We know people reach sexual maturity often before reaching mental maturity or a state of "Sound Judgement"

But hey don't use Aql, or Sound Judgement, because Ibn-Hurwah narrated it and Bukhari included it, it must be 100 percent true, yeah?

Blah blah blah. No sound person would marry his young daughter without a valid reason. And neither does Islam "encourages" marriage of pre-pubescent girls just as Islam does not encourage slavery. Rather, it regulates what needs to be done should a man gives his pre-pubescent daughter in nikah. He cannot send her off to her husband until she has become physically mature.

Lol - So Islam condones marrying women solely due to the first sign of Mensturation? Nothing to do with Mental Maturity?

Stop acting like an idiot ‘cause people can also argue that girls as old as 20 nowadays are not "mentally" mature enough to be married. It’s all subjective.

My My, what a nuanced view of Islam and Marriage you have!

Both Mental and Physical maturity plays a key part as quoted. You think 6 year-olds are capable of sound judgement when it comes to marriage, then good luck to you.

I do not think that a person that young is capable of making sound decisions or should be married to an older person. However, if I was in shoes of Sayyidna Abu bakar (ra) then even I’d want to marry my daughter to messenger of Allah saw, irrespective of her age.

The Quran makes clear you marry a lady that can take care of financial affairs and run a household

Can a 6-year old do this? In any Culture, that is far-fetched in the extreme.

Again, just because it is "allowed" doesn't mean it's "encouraged", learn the difference.

So you missed the point. Brother Ayman is so determined to prove this thing about 9 year olds being physically mature, he neglects to mention that the Quran holds:

Quran also limits the # of women to marry to number 4 but it's a well known fact that Prophet saw married 12 or 13 women, so are you going to accuse the Prophet saw of going against Quran (waliyaudhobillah)?

Marriage is when one Physically and mentally matures.

Now we all don't believe that for a man, pubic hair or for a lady, the act of menstruation is an automatic normal indicator, let alone Islamic indicator, that she he or she is ready for marriage.

Yet let us assume that yes, a 6 year old, on account of reaching Mensturation, is thus allowed to be married...

How would that indicate Sound Judgement on her part, if she has to wait 3 years before allegedly reaching sexual Maturity?

You couldn't make it up... Oh wait; someone already did.

Actually, the one missing the point is you who thinks that there aren’t exceptions to general rules. And this isn’t the first time you’ve done that, you always do this. You think that just because general rule says one thing everything “must” follow that general principle.

This isn’t the case in practical life and certainly isn’t the case in Islamic Sharia. Life isn’t black and white there are many shades of grey in between.

So yes, the general rule is to marry people when they’re mature physically & mentally but since prophet saw is an example for ALL of humanity, his life shows us that there was an exception to this general principle supported by Quran.

For valid reasons, a father CAN marry his pre-pubescent daughter but cannot send her off to her husband until she matures. Once again, it isn’t the general rule rather an exception.

Moreover, even for a "mature" virgin woman, father’s permission (if alive) is absolutely necessary. A virgin girl cannot marry a man without her father’s/wali’s approval at any case and it’s his responsibility to marry her off to a suitable man. So even in case of a "mature" virgin girl, her only judgement (assuming it's an arranged marriage) would most likely be the guy's education, looks, or money. This is why it's the father's responsibility to make sure that she marries her off to someone of a sound character along with other qualities.

Oh I do love Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz; Did Hazrat Umar sanction or marry a pre-pubescent 6 year old? No. Neither did the Prophet for that matter. But hey... whatever you want to justify.

I also love it when people shift goalposts - I was referring clealry to the Islamically sanctioned marriages of 6 year old pre-pubescents.

But 6 years old and that too as a pre-pubescent. Tut Tut.

Why is number 6 such a problem? Clearly Quran does not assign a “number” for marriage. It only speaks of "maturity" in the general sense of the word.

Because this shows he is unobjective and thus Unscientific.

No it doesn't. The only thing apparent is your obvious lack of knowledge on the subject.

But Hadith Analysis is a Science, yeah?

Yup, which is based on a sound methodology. I.e. examining the chain of narrators, examining the text of ahadith, and the context of the text.

I bow to his infinite Knowledge. If only we had more Science of the Hadith then we could show Historians and Academics that have given us everything from the Medicine you use, to the Electricity that powers your PC, how it's truly done.

Right, and Muslims have contributed a lot to these sciences historically speaking so don’t understand your rant here.

Without such Science, how else would I be able to know about the Prophet's (PBUH) intimate relations with his wives or indeed that dipping a fly completely into my food if it lands upon it, is necessary, as one wing carries the illness and the other the cure.

And why would Prophet’s saw intimate relations with his wives be problematic? Or do you think that sex education is not important to a human’s life? As for the hadith regarding the fly, how about reading some scientific research instead of cracking ignorant jokes like a blind fool? Try this: http://www.quranandscience.com/sunnah-a-science/274-housefly-falls-into-ones-drink.html

Jokes aside, a true science updates it's methodology in light of new thoughts, ideas and evidence - Go ask a Real Scientist.

Does science also deviates from it's basics? Advancement based on sound knowledge and proof is never looked down in Islamic Scholarship rather deviancy based on little knowledge is.

We can't or are not allowed to countenance that maybe the Scholars back then didn't have the benefit of Historical, Religious, and Contextual Hindsight in determining their opinions. Which is what they are. Their Opinions. Well Some of the Scholars.

While I agree with this to a certain extent, I disagree that "every" single aspect of the religion has to be reinterpreted and especially without any sound knowledge & methodology.

They did the best they could but they are not beyond error or questioning. Imam Maliki admitted as much, but hey, lets ignore this humble part of the first man to attempt to even compile the Hadith, hey?

But the problem is you don’t even have a criteria for judging hadith, your pseudo critique is “it doesn’t make sense to my ‘aql’” and “they must be influenced by factor so and so”. Without ever quoting any literature to substantiate points you pull out of thin air.

Now let me ask you this, on what basis do you accept a report? If you say based on“aql” then how about if I tell you something which does not contradict Quran at all, and sounds logical? How will you determine that my “logical” saying is NOT an authentic saying reported from person x,y,z in past but rather is fabricated by me?

Or will you just accept it because it’s an intelligent saying, so it must be true?

Or better yet, lets ignore any other School in that time-period that disagreed with the 4 main Schools - Only the 4 are right yeah?

Well unless you're Shia...

I can write an essay on this but I just don't have the time nor am I motivated enough...

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

I did. Definitely. I'm one of the K's.... Oh noes!

Well then you must know that it's just BS and not an academic or researched opinion.

But you should consider:

When it comes to Islamic Philosophical History Analysed objectively - That is free from Sectarianism - You find that Islamic History is not just the 4 Schools and the Shia Schools. Read Majid Fakhry's Introduction to Islamic Philosophy. Unless you think an Academic is inferior to a Scholar...

I don't see the relevance of Islamic philosophy in this topic? If your point is that there are "opposing" interpretations of any given subject available then I have never denied that.

There are others; But suffice it to say, We focus on Sectarian funded Sheikhs, from India to Saudi, rather than pure unobjective Academia... Including discounting views from non-Muslims even when they are evidenced based... They don't understand yeah?

Speak for yourself buddy, I read literature from both Muslim and non-Muslim sources. In fact, the ONLY way to understand any concept with proper understanding imho, is when we also learn it's opposite.

There are commonalities between them, and then their are disagreements between key Indivuals Such as the great Philsophers/Scholars such as Avicenna, Averroes and Ghazzali. There works are rarely discussed. i wonder why?

Not true, If you visit islamic forums, these topics have been discussed to death and are the MOST frequently discussed topics on almost all Islamic forums.

 

[Tapori]

AbdulrazzaqFan

We're just never going to agree at all.

At least you're open to some revisionism if there is Method behind it; Which is a start!

I can write an essay on this but I just don't have the time nor am I motivated enough...

Hope you post it one day when you have motivation. In a sepearte thread.

 

[Tapori]

Speak for yourself buddy, I read literature from both Muslim and non-Muslim sources. In fact, the ONLY way to understand any concept with proper understanding imho, is when we also learn it's opposite.

I speak for the majority of people I know who don't claim to have read what you say. Kudos to you.

I don't see the relevance of Islamic philosophy in this topic? If your point is that there are "opposing" interpretations of any given subject available then I have never denied that.

Precisely; The interpretation of the Quran, as we have touched on and the Schools of thought we know today are intrinsically linked to Islamic Philosophy at it's core. It's the insistence by many that any interpretation outside of these 4 schools is somehow Unislamic...

I know you haven't denied it, but have implied the Muta'azilite position is wrong on all accounts in the Isa (PBUH) returns thread.
That too citing that a different interpretation is somehow new outside the 4 schools...

Not true, If you visit islamic forums, these topics have been discussed to death and are the MOST frequently discussed topics on almost all Islamic forums.

if that is indeed true please give a few links. Suffice it to say, that most people are unaware of these points in their general knowledge. If your experience is different then so be it.

If I may add too, such education is taught along Very Sectarian lines in Mosques in general; Hence the emphasis on impartial Academia which should help address this issue.

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

^ let me ask you a question before i reply to your post above.

Do you believe that Islam is the "only" correct path to reach salvation or do you think that people from other religions are also on the correct path? [People that do know about Islam's existence and have access to islamic literature]

 

[Black Zero]

And the history is what?

According to you, the History is 100 percent true because...?

true to what?

I assume you meant "Factual", correct?

No one is looking for 100% factual account of history but I would guess bright would try to refrain from letting their desires/fears to guide their senses.

It's tragedy that we are so ready to create faction (fact+fiction)

 

[Tapori]

^ Now that is Irony.

 

[Tapori]

Do you believe that Islam is the "only" correct path to reach salvation or do you think that people from other religions are also on the correct path? [People that do know about Islam's existence and have access to islamic literature]

I believe whoever reaches salvation in their soul and in this life will do based on Islam. No doubt.

Whether they admit they are Muslim or follow Islam is another matter. I have faith in Allah's justice. He sees our heart and soul, something we can't see at times even in our own selves!

The issue is how you define Islam - Is it simply the submission to Allah - Or is it the complete belief in one of the common schools of thought?

Is it the belief in the literal sense of every nuanced detail of the Quran, or the general Philosophy it entails?

Would be fascinating to discuss - Hope you open up a thread about it.

Genuinely, I must reiterate what you said - It's really for a whole new thread:

I can write an essay on this but I just don't have the time

Let me leave you with this:

There is a person who has prayed to Allah in their capacity as a Monotheist, has lived their lives by every key aspect of Islam, been honest truthful and trustworthy but hasn't ever read the Shahadah.

There is a defacto Muslim, born into a Muslim family, who has done everything but be Muslim, yet has read the Shahadah and Salat but doesn't really believe in Allah and Islam.

I find it hard that a merciful Allah would be so venal and self-indulgent to grant one by virtue of his reading the Shahadah and Salah despite his impure heart, Jannah, and the other the Hellfire for not reading the Shahadah despite being pure in soul heart and intention and living by Islamic Principles of Justice and Truth.

But hey, target kill me if you must...

 

[m-unit]

Hazrat Aisha was atleast 18 years old according to the following facts presented in this article :

Of Aisha’s age at marriage
Nilofar Ahmed | Opinion | From the Newspaper
14 hours ago

IT is said that Hazrat Aisha was six years old when her nikah was performed with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in Makkah, and nine years old when she moved in to live with her husband in Madina after Hijra.

This piece of misinformation has led to the wrong view that child marriage has the sanction of Islam. It must be noted that establishing the authenticity of hadiths, the narrators’ circumstances and the conditions at that time have to be correlated with historical facts. There is only one hadith by Hisham which suggests the age of Hazrat Aisha as being nine when she came to live with her husband.

Many authentic hadiths also show that Hisham’s narration is incongruous with several historical facts about the Prophet’s life, on which there is consensus. With reference to scholars such as Umar Ahmed Usmani, Hakim Niaz Ahmed and Habibur Rehman Kandhulvi, I would like to present some arguments in favour of the fact that Hazrat Aisha was at least 18 years old when her nikah was performed and at least 21 when she moved into the Prophet’s house to live with him.

According to Umar Ahmed Usmani, in Surah Al-Nisa, it is said that the guardian of the orphans should keep testing them, until they reach the age of marriage, before returning their property (4: 6). From this scholars have concluded that the Quran sets a minimum age of marriage which is at least puberty. Since the approval of the girl has a legal standing, she cannot be a minor.

Hisham bin Urwah is the main narrator of this hadith. His life is divided into two periods: in 131A.H. the Madani period ended, and the Iraqi period started, when Hisham was 71 years old. Hafiz Zehbi has spoken about Hisham’s loss of memory in his later period. His students in Madina, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah, do not mention this hadith. Imam Malik and the people of Madina criticised him for his Iraqi hadiths.

All the narrators of this hadith are Iraqis who had heard it from Hisham. Allama Kandhulvi says that the words spoken in connection with Hazrat Aisha’s age were tissa ashara, meaning 19, when Hisham only heard (or remembered), tissa, meaning nine. Maulana Usmani thinks this change was purposely and maliciously made later.

Historian Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasul Allah has given a list of the people who accepted Islam in the first year of the proclamation of Islam, in which Hazrat Aisha’s name is mentioned as Abu Bakr’s “little daughter Aisha”. If we accept Hisham’s calculations, she was not even born at that time.

Some time after the death of the Prophet’s first wife, Hazrat Khadija, Khawla suggested to the Prophet that he get married again, to a bikrun, referring to Hazrat Aisha (Musnad Ahmed). In Arabic bikrun is used for an unmarried girl who has crossed the age of puberty and is of marriageable age. The word cannot be used for a six-year-old girl.

Some scholars think that Hazrat Aisha was married off so early because in Arabia girls mature at an early age. But this was not a common custom of the Arabs at that time. According to Allama Kandhulvi, there is no such case on record either before or after Islam. Neither has this ever been promoted as a Sunnah of the Prophet. The Prophet married off his daughters Fatima at 21 and Ruquiyya at 23. Besides, Hazrat Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father, married off his eldest daughter Asma at the age of 26.

Hazrat Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim). This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission.

In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud, were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead and injured, treating their wounds, carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.

Hazrat Aisha used the kunniat, the title derived from the name of a child, of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son.
If she was six when her nikah was performed, she would have been only eight years his senior, hardly making him eligible for adoption. Also, a little girl could not have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.

Hazrat Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he was not surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law, poetry and history because she was the wife of the Prophet and the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was eight when her father migrated, when did she learn poetry and history from him?

There is consensus that Hazrat Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma, whose age at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina, was about 28. It can be concluded that Hazrat Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. On her moving to the Prophet’s house, she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is the single narrator of the hadith whose authenticity is challenged, for it does not correlate with the many historical facts of the time.

The writer is a scholar of the Quran and writes on contemporary issues.
nilofar.ahmed58@gmail.com

http://www.dawn.com/2012/02/17/of-aishas-age-at-marriage.html

 

[Tapori]

m-unit

What is your opinion on the matter?

 

[Tapori]

Her E-mail Inbox is Probably full of death threats, fatwas and Hate-Mail as I type.

Pakistan/India/ South Asia is very lucky that culturally we didn't practice Female Circumcision; Which is horrifically practiced and justified by some so-called Islamic sects citing....

Hadith.

 

[iZaman]

Oh come on.

not this bullcrap again.
I repeat, I do not need to justify the age of Aisha (RA) whether that be 6, 10, 20, 30 at the time of the Prophets marriage with her.
I will not justify my Prophets act based on the criticism of the western scholars. It is absurd to try and excuse, make reasons for a step that the Prophet took.

I only know that Aisha had a great part to play in the upcoming years of caliphate. She relates more than 2000+ Ahadith and Fatawas. Her understanding of Deen was so great that even the greatest of the companions would ask her about problems they faced.
She was the only "Faqeeha" in Madinah and most of the issues regarding marriage/women/family are related to him.

Once again, I do not need to justify her age. She was the best among the women and the Prophet was the best among the men.

 

[iZaman]

The issue is how you define Islam - Is it simply the submission to Allah - Or is it the complete belief in one of the common schools of thought?

It is simply the submission to Allah and the Prophet (SAW) was the greatest of all submitters.
He perfectly submitted himself to Allah and hence what he did is the 'model' to follow and hence the school of thoughts are only an attempt to try and be more particular about the 'ways' of pleasing Allah as the Prophet (SAW) did.

So yes, Allah is all merciful and beneficent and he may even pardon some body who has weird ways of trying to please Allah - other than what the Prophet (SAW) did. But, generally, the code of conduct is the Prophets life.

I hope you understand.

There is a person who has prayed to Allah in their capacity as a Monotheist, has lived their lives by every key aspect of Islam, been honest truthful and trustworthy but hasn't ever read the Shahadah.

There is a defacto Muslim, born into a Muslim family, who has done everything but be Muslim, yet has read the Shahadah and Salat but doesn't really believe in Allah and Islam.

I find it hard that a merciful Allah would be so venal and self-indulgent to grant one by virtue of his reading the Shahadah and Salah despite his impure heart, Jannah, and the other the Hellfire for not reading the Shahadah despite being pure in soul heart and intention and living by Islamic Principles of Justice and Truth.

If he believes in Allah, Allah will surely give him paradise but remember, if he knows Kalimah, then why mustn't he say it?
I'm sure Allah will pardon him if he lives in a jungle in Africa but if he is living in UK, why will not he say the Kalimah? Either you deny the Kalimah or you accept it. There is no way between this...

For the second person, Allah will punish him as per requirement and he will certainly enter the Jannah if Allah wills.

 

[Tapori]

Re: Hazrat Aisha - So you haven't read the thread? At all?

Appreciate the points you answered re: Muslims Islam.

The central tenet of the discussions rest on factors:

Objectively looking at the Hadith to see if the Prophet (PBUH) definitely 100 percent said what he is alleged to have said.

Looking at the Hadith in relation to the Quran. Nowhere is marriage of pre-pubescent girls sanctioned. That's a fact as Marriage criteria are clearly set out. It's the inability of dogmatic Hadith-is-all-right to countenance that 100's of years later a Hadith might not indeed be exactly what the Prophet did or said...

There is another thread on the issue of Hadith, but the issue is Sectarian Glasses being applied to what should be a collection of texts who's methodology and analysis are deemed beyond any further updating/analysis.

This when the initial Hadith Compilers such as Imam Maliki and others themselves stated that they were doing the best they could but could still be wrong; the Methodology of Hadith analysis as they saw it was a man-made Academic pursuit - Shouldn't be a closed shop of orthodoxy or t'was ever thus.

If it's there in the Hadith then the prophet definitely said/did it. Either you believe in them all or none of them.

That is anything but scientific...

 

[iZaman]

Nope.

I thought I had answer the question you left for AbduRazzaqFan.

Have not really got much time to dig up the whole thread.

 

[Tapori]

If he believes in Allah, Allah will surely give him paradise but remember, if he knows Kalimah, then why mustn't he say it?

Well a UK Scientist from a Christian Family background and as a result thus despises organised religion as it is today, might not ever countenance the Islam as it is hijacked by Sectarian oafs...

 

[Tapori]

Jeeway - No problem. - Bump the Hadith thread and if you want you can continue the discussion there.

 

[s28]

sorry to drag this up again but it is always a major talking point for bigots and racists so it is good to be informed

and i just saw this on twitter

http://www.askthesheikh.com/was-prophet-muhammads-marriage-to-aisha-a-pedophilic-relationship/

 

[s28]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Having prosecuted these gangs when others didn’t, religion was the last thing on rapists mind<br><br>This is selective bigotry<br><br>History tells us Early Marriage was the norm:<br>King John married 11 yr old<br>Many Biblical Prophets married pre-teen, <br>In USA you could marry 7 yr olds till 1920 <a href="https://t.co/7EydcQGPQy">https://t.co/7EydcQGPQy</a></p>— nazir afzal (@nazirafzal) <a href="https://twitter.com/nazirafzal/status/1018458648232779777?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">15 July 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[s28]

Interesting graphic

 

[hussain.r97]

Just to put it out there, from what I know, the Shia sources do not say 9 years old. It is generally accepted that she was likely 14 - 19.

 

[hussain.r97]

Interesting graphic

View attachment 82903

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/h...d-prophet-muhammad-muhammad-husayn-al-qazwini

This article explains the contents of that graphic in more depth and also gives proof.

 

[Pakistanian]

Whatever the age of ayesha, people need to realize those were different times and we've evolved since then as a society. What the Prophet did was a societal and cultural norm, something that was practiced in medieval Europe and even until the late 19th century/early 20th century.

As a history professor told me about the vietnam war, those were men of different time and they were a product of their times and culture.