Real age of Hazrat Aisha

[filosofee]

One thing I have noticed is that when people look back at history they look at it with a superiority complex. Everyone believes that the present times are much better than the old days because we have technology. This technological arrogance has caused for our perspective on history to be heavily biased. You cannot judge any culture based on your own views and culture. You have to be culturally relativistic. Sociologists and anthropologists are better at taking this into account but historians on the other hand ignore this most of the time. History looks very different in retrospect and it gets even worse when you uses different tinted glasses. You have to look at history in the proper cultural context.

Lets look at an analogy. When you look at a movie that involves a bit of fantasy, lets take the matrix as an example. When you are watching it in the beginning and Trinity jumps across the road from one rooftop to another, it is hard for you to believe it. But later on, when the rules of the matrix have been defined and we understand that this is a different context we accept it perfectly well when Morpheus makes the jump. The important difference there was the correct context in which something which might seem unimaginable at one instance seems perfectly acceptable.

We come back to the question of the thread here. I am not here to argue if Hazrat Aisha was in fact 9 years old at the time she got married or not, but despite all that, we cannot say that it was morally incorrect because we don't know about the morals of that time. Look at similar issues such as Slavery. Islam did not abolish slavery and there is no such commandment in the Quran. Yet we accept it because in that context, slavery was common and Islam made lives for slaves much better then what was the norm at the time. But scholars today agree that is would not be permissible for someone to own slaves in this day and age.

A similar issue is marriage between first cousins. In the west it is considered incest yet elsewhere in the world it is completely normal. People don't even know that it is looked down upon until they step outside of one culture and step into another.

When looking at cultures, you must remember that you cannot say that one culture is superior to another culture and also that all rules cannot be applied universally to all cultures.

You are all entitled to your views but also be respectful of the views of others on this thread.

Probably the best, objective post on this issue, thank you for taking the time to write it.

 

[IMMYBUTT]

I really feel that Muslims should be very careful in what they say in debates like this. The character of the Holy prophet (PBUH) is faultless and the most honorable, such debates may raise doubts about the prophet's(PBUH) character in the eyes of some people.

There is no doubt that Aisha(RA) was a WOMAN at the time she was in a full relationship with the prophet(PBUH). We all know women mature earlier then men, some much earlier.

The prophet(PBUH) was an example to mankind. If he did something inappropriate it would have been an issue and challanged at the time, even the sahaba questioned the actions and desicions of the prophet(PBUH). The prophet(PBUH) often explained the wisdom and reasoning behind desicions and actions. The Sahaba were not just blind followers, that's why their beliefs were so strong, The prophet(PBUH) was able to justify everything because he was righteous.

 

[filosofee]

I really feel that Muslims should be very careful in what they say in debates like this. The character of the Holy prophet (PBUH) is faultless and the most honorable, such debates may raise doubts about the prophet's(PBUH) character in the eyes of some people.

There is no doubt that Aisha(RA) was a WOMAN at the time she was in a full relationship with the prophet(PBUH). We all know women mature earlier then men, some much earlier.

The prophet(PBUH) was an example to mankind. If he did something inappropriate it would have been an issue and challanged at the time, even the sahaba questioned the actions and desicions of the prophet(PBUH). The prophet(PBUH) often explained the wisdom and reasoning behind desicions and actions. The Sahaba were not just blind followers, that's why their beliefs were so strong, The prophet(PBUH) was able to justify everything because he was righteous.

Apologies for my ignorance, and I am seriously trying to understand, but all this talk of the age/time of marriage-consummation, how can anyone know this? As if it's the kind of topic that would be discussed! How do we know that it ever was? Were there any children from this partnership, not that I know of. Yes, the prophet did have a son in his old age, did he not? Not born of Ayesha.

 

[nakhattak]

but if the Prophet did it, is it not a sunnah to marry 9 year old girls?

The 'times have changed' argument doesn't apply, because otherwise the same thing can be said to just about everything the Prophet did.

Did the Prophet marry 9 year olds only. His first wife was 40 yrs old. From your logic then, a muslim's first wife should always be 40 and a widow.

 

[Bongo]

Brothers, why even bring this question up. Those non-muslims who bring this particular question up are devious, trying to create doubts within oneself. Amongst all the questions that one can ask about Islam, why bring up this issue time & again?
One thing is for sure. The Prophet (saw) is the best of creation and his actions were through revelations received by Allah. His marriage to Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) was for a reason beyond our puny comprehension in the context of this Great Religion. How is seeking the answer to this question going to benefit us? What is in the Quran & Sunnah is sufficient for us. The Prophet (saw) used to warn his Companions about the dangers of asking questions in which there is no benefit to be gained.

 

[Bongo]

When we refer to following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) we mean by using examples from the Sahabah. Eg When the 5 daily prayer was established it was encumbent on everyone to pray the daily prayers which was established from amongst the Sahabah.
Yet when the Prophet (saw) married Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her), the Sahabah didn't go out marrying females of the same age.

Another point is that there were certain matters pertaining to marriage that was acceptable to the Prophet (saw) because of his superiority amongst the creation that does not apply to others.
Eg The Prophet (saw) had more than 4 wives at one time but this was not allowed for any of the Companions & is not allowed for us.

 

[zaf1986]

When we refer to following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) we mean by using examples from the Sahabah. Eg When the 5 daily prayer was established it was encumbent on everyone to pray the daily prayers which was established from amongst the Sahabah.
Yet when the Prophet (saw) married Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her), the Sahabah didn't go out marrying females of the same age.

Isn't that sunnat-e-Sahaba then, not sunnah of the Prophet?

 

[Bongo]

Isn't that sunnat-e-Sahaba then, not sunnah of the Prophet?

No, it is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) because the Sahabah were the best examples of the Sunnah. There are numerous hadiths where the Prophet (saw) stresses the importance of the Sahaba & the importance of following the Sahaba.
It was the Sahaba that were instrumental in the spread of the Sunnah. If it wasn't for the Sahabah we would not have known about the Sunnah because there would have been no hadiths. All hadiths collected about the Prophet (saw) were from those memorised from the Sahabah.

So NO! It isn't Sunnat-e-Sahaba but the Sunnah of the Prophet.

 

[the SHA]

From an interesting fatwa - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544940

Secondly, the fact that `Aisha, before the Prophet proposed to her, was being pursued by Jubair ibn Mut`am, indicates that she was mature enough for marriage, according to the prevailing tradition at that time, if not, the Quraish people, who would never waste any chance to insult the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, would have found this marriage as a golden opportunity to pour on him rain of insults. Rather they found nothing wrong in this engagement, and they received the news of the Prophet’s proposal for `Aisha as something usual, and even, expected.

All context.

In any case, what is the question attempting to prove?

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) -> married a girl of 9 years old -> therefore must be 'paedophile' -> therefore unreliable as an authentic Prophet of God??

Surely if this was the case he wouldve had several marriages / affairs with a range of girls to his liking, afterall he clearly had the power/influence to do this at his will.

Since we know this wasnt the case (and even islamophobes with an axe to grind will confirm this), it must be that his motives for this marriage were not due to the accusation that 'he was a paedophile'. Therefore if not, what were they? Perhaps they were more to do with not Aisha, but who Aisha's father was - who just happened to be his closest friend Abu Bakr.

Yup, in the 1980s & 1990s Pakistani fast bowlers were all ball tampering cheats because they were the only ones who could bowl reverse swing. That is definitely one superficial way of looking at things, the other though by simply applying more thought and less bias tells a different story as we know!

 

[Wazeeri]

Hadhrat Aisha(RA) was a woman when she was married off. The problem we have is that we don't have any reliable source of her age as it was not among the customs of the arabs to remember anyone's age especially that of a woman. Even the date of the Prophet(pbuh)'s birth is not known to anyone, we only know which week he was born in.

Even in today's rural areas of pakistan most people don't know their date of birth. If asked your likely to be told that they Mr X was born in the mango season or the year of the floods and so on.

So to say that she was 6,9 or 40 is just plain wrong as we have no reliable source to make such a detailed claim. From what we know Hadhrat Aisha(RA) was grown up and was considered a woman, otherwise we would have hundreds of hadith of men taunting the Prophet(pbuh) for breaking a religious law just like there was a mini rebellion when the Prophet(pbuh) married his 5th wife.

Having sex with a child is wrong today as it was wrong in the past and I hope it will remain considered wrong for the rest of the time us humans remain on this planet.

However who can be labelled a child is not something which has remained consistent throughout our history. The absolute definition of a child should take into consideration a measure of the person's maturity both physical and mental.

As we have no such scientific measure the law makers in the past opted to establish a cut-off point based on the number of times a person has witnessed the earth completing the orbit of the sun.

Coming up with an arbitary number of years as the barrier is the best and most practical way the modern world could come up with to police paedophilia but this method can only dictate law, it can never be considered a measure for morals.

Once a person reaches mental and biological maturity and they need to have sex, they should be allowed to do so under the institution of marriage. We have many teenagers who are intelligent and sensible enough to run businesses and there are many 30 years old who are too immature to maintain a relationship.

We cannot use the laws of today to judge the morals of yester years. There was nothing what so ever wrong with the relationship in question which was full of love and affection.

 

[Joseph K.]

We cannot use the laws of today to judge the morals of yester years.There was nothing what so ever wrong with the relationship in question which was full of love and affection.

We don't feel any hesitation in using the laws of yesteryears to judge the morals of today

 

[Wazeeri]

We don't feel any hesitation in using the laws of yesteryears to judge the morals of today

The said laws were not just laws but guidelines of morals for all time.

 

[12thMan]

A controversial novel about the Prophet Muhammad and his child bride, scrapped in the US, will be released in the UK.

Last month, publisher Random House cancelled the US publication of The Jewel of Medina, by Sherry Jones, fearing it could offend Muslims.

Random House said it had been advised the book "could incite acts of violence by a small, radical segment".

But independent UK firm Gibson Square will publish the book next month saying its release is "imperative"....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7597437.stm

 

[SameerM]

No matter wot the age, this is not an issue for me.

Back in those days, we dont know exactly the society and their behaviours.

Being Married might not have the same meaning we have NOW in 2008.


Ok she was married to the Prophet pbuh, how do we know the extent of their relationship, to wot levels it existed?

We dont know the intention of the Prophet...only allah does - why does her age make a difference anyways?

also if the prophet didnt marry her, she would have been left alone, and probably had a worser fate by the men in that society.
SO in a way, the prophet saved her.. and today, her image and status is the highest in Islam for a female.

All females in islam, have Aisha (may allah be pleased with her) as the perfect rolemodel !!

plus if she was abused, or unhappy, she would have escaped.. not stayed with the prophet looking after him and being the perfect wife!

 

[in_cutter]

I have heard in the past that it was normal for ppl to be married to younger individuals. I suppose it's a bit like today..ok to marry cousins. Different ages, different customs.

 

[TAK]

personally i have always been uncomfortable with a 53 year old man marrying the 9/10/11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18 year old daughter of a close friend!

 

[DHONI183]

Even when I hadn´t studied religion a lot I never believed that he married a nine year old girl, and I still don´t. I have read the above article before and I agree to it.

 

[Zechariah]

There is a topic going on with regards to marrying at young age. Some statements were made regarding our Prophet in there, I would like to bump this up.

 

[hasanb]

There is absolutely no doubt that it was the culture back in those times to marry young...very young and this tradition still exists in villages etc. I also agree with Wazeeri in that it is things like out lifestyle and academia that has extended the childhood of a person. However...one of the areas that I have a question with is that say at the age of around 10, even if a girl says yes to marriage, is she really mentally capable of assessing what shes getting into?

Im my own opinion no she cant assess the complexities of her decision at such an age and thus such a marriage is tantamount to forced marriage. I am talking here about this practice in arab society that continues until now. I am NOT talking about the prophet (p.b.u.h) since i am no where near qualified to go round making statements about that issue.

Btw why do we have 2 threads on the same topic?

 

[AZ]

well the Yemeni girl thread has been diverted to this topic

 

[hasanb]

well the Yemeni girl thread has been diverted to this topic

I say lets stick to the other thread!

 

[AZ]

well the discussion is still there, it's just that Zechariah wanted to provide further material for anyone wanting to find out more about the issue at hand

 

[zam]

1400 years back the life of girls used to be very hard, they used to mill the flour out of wheat, plucking wooden sticks for fuel and all the heavy works. So they used to grow physically and mentally very quickly.......Example: Prophet Noah lived up to round about 1000 years and we dont say how come he lived so long. Same as the girls of that time used to become at puberty pretty soon and that's the islamic age for marriage. Here i am posting a link which shows that these days a girl can reach to puberty even at the age of 7...

http://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/HealthAZ/Puberty-for-Girls.aspx?articleID=8810&categoryID=

 

[hasanb]

1400 years back the life of girls used to be very hard, they used to mill the flour out of wheat, plucking wooden sticks for fuel and all the heavy works. So they used to grow physically and mentally very quickly.......Example: Prophet Noah lived up to round about 1000 years and we dont say how come he lived so long. Same as the girls of that time used to become at puberty pretty soon and that's the islamic age for marriage. Here i am posting a link which shows that these days a girl can reach to puberty even at the age of 7...

http://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/HealthAZ/Puberty-for-Girls.aspx?articleID=8810&categoryID=

So then would you consider marrying a 7 year old? as it is the age for marriage....

Im presuming your answer will be an emphatic no and therein lies the crux of his entire issue.

 

[zam]

you did not get the point.....Now let me know hasanb please that what do you think is the proper age for the marriage......some will say after masters...some will say after graduation.....or what will be the critaria.....age-size-physical appearance or 15-14-18-20...thanks

 

[sticky wicket]

So then would you consider marrying a 7 year old? as it is the age for marriage....

Im presuming your answer will be an emphatic no and therein lies the crux of his entire issue.

what zam means is that its the environment at the time which affects mental maturity as well as physical. Everyone has heard the phrase "grow up quick" e.g. someone in a harsh envirmont today e.g. living on the streets would say they had to "grow up quick" in order to survive. So a 7 year old of that time who has adult roles and responsibilities in their society cannot be compared with a 7 year old of today.

 

[zam]

thanks and geo

 

[SameerM]

what if her ONLY options were to get married to the Prophet pbuh

OR left on her own and get raped or slaved up.... which would u choose?


None of us know the EXACT reasons for the marriage...so how can we judge??

 

[MIG]

And thiis The Prophet (PBUH) we are talking about! The person ALLAH SWT chose amongst all his creations to recieve His message !

How dare we, as Muslims, question his motives for ANY aspect of his life?

Lets know our place in the universe and stick to it - the rest is ALLAHs domain.

 

[Fallen King]

It could be, she was married at the age of 9-12, and real relationship has started when she has grew reasonable age - 16-20, who knows? It is like marriage contract from i have heard several months ago, that during the marriage, first one month was decided not real relationship between both parties, as clearly hinted the idea by wife just to test her husband, and her husband has passed the test, and the real relationship has started.

It is simple. She was married at very youngest age, but real relationship of her with her husband started at her very reasonable age - more like above 16. I may be wrong, but again, this is just theory, and could be possible. The real question is at what age was she pregnant? That may clear the misunderstanding.

 

[aashiqmizaaj]

Are there any other examples of the sahaba marrying someone that young?

 

[DHONI183]

Are there any other examples of the sahaba marrying someone that young?

I have never come across any such example.

 

[mamoo gogo]

Are there any other examples of the sahaba marrying someone that young?

it was something unusual, don't you think that the mushrikeen would have used this against the prophet (PBUH)...

 

[aashiqmizaaj]

it was something unusual, don't you think that the mushrikeen would have used this against the prophet (PBUH)...

My point is that if people are saying children developed faster in those days, then why aren't there other examples of such?

My understanding of the issue is that the hadith that report Hazrat Ayesha's age are not exactly sound, that there are views that suggest that she was much older than 6.

 

[zimmz]

My point is that if people are saying children developed faster in those days, then why aren't there other examples of such?

My understanding of the issue is that the hadith that report Hazrat Ayesha's age are not exactly sound, that there are views that suggest that she was much older than 6.

Couldn't it be one-off miraculous case? Why Prophet Isa (pbuh) was the only example of his miraculous birth? If we go further back in history, people were living much longer life [ Adam (pbuh), Nuh (pbuh) ]. Human being spreaded on earth by inter-sibling marriages according to our belief.

 

[Wazeeri]

My point is that if people are saying children developed faster in those days, then why aren't there other examples of such?

Which other personality of the Prophet(pbuh)'s lifetime has had their life history written down in such a detail?

The answer to the lack of other incidents may lie in the above question.

 

[DHONI183]

And thiis The Prophet (PBUH) we are talking about! The person ALLAH SWT chose amongst all his creations to recieve His message !

How dare we, as Muslims, question his motives for ANY aspect of his life?

Lets know our place in the universe and stick to it - the rest is ALLAHs domain.

Let me just make one thing clear: Those who deny this claim doesn´t mean they are question The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) or his motives, rather the historical facts we are presented with which to some are correct and to some not.

Peace!

 

[aashiqmizaaj]

Which other personality of the Prophet(pbuh)'s lifetime has had their life history written down in such a detail?

The answer to the lack of other incidents may lie in the above question.

We have details on the lives of the four caliphs, other sahaba as well. Are there any other examples of anyone during that era marrying someone that young? Given the lack of examples, the lack of following that specific example of the Prophet (SAW) as well and the dispute in the age, it might be safe to assume that the traditions passed down have errors.

There was a link that someone posted and it gave quite a few indications as to what Hazrat Ayesha's age was. If it's not disputed that Hazrat Ayesha was born before the advent of Islam then at the very least she was 12 years old (could have been older) when she was married, and 15 when the marriage was consumated.

 

[BD-fan]

My dear brothers,
As'salamu alaikum. I have a suggestion. When anyone (muslims and non-muslim) bring up this topic I humbly suggest you to answer back, "Aisha (ra)'s age is duely recorded to our lord, Allah. I do not wish to discuss about this matter and lower my Iman by saying something that may be false."

 

[Wazeeri]

We have details on the lives of the four caliphs, other sahaba as well. Are there any other examples of anyone during that era marrying someone that young? Given the lack of examples, the lack of following that specific example of the Prophet (SAW) as well and the dispute in the age, it might be safe to assume that the traditions passed down have errors.

None of the sahaba have had their lives recorded in as much detail.

I agree with your point that the exact age of Hadhrat Aisha(RA) is not known but a reasonable assumption is that it lies between 9 and 15. Do you think the additional 6 years is enough to satisfy any objections?

 

[DHONI183]

So then, who initiated the matter? Was it حضرات Abu Bakr (رضي الله عنه) or The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) who offered it? I was always under the impression that The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) had some vision or dream which instructed him to marry حضرات Aisha (رضي الله عنها). What is correct?

 

[Wazeeri]

No I got that wrong earlier on the other thread,

The matter was brought up by a distant female relative of the Prophet(pbuh) who suggested that the Prophet(pbuh) should marry after the passing away of Hadhrat Khadija(RA). She suggested two names for prospective proposals. Hadhrat Aisha(RA)'s marriage agreement with a son of a non-muslim had been broken just recently so her name was suggested.

 

[DHONI183]

No I got that wrong earlier on the other thread,

The matter was brought up by a distant female relative of the Prophet(pbuh) who suggested that the Prophet(pbuh) should marry after the passing away of Hadhrat Khadija(RA). She suggested two names for prospective proposals. Hadhrat Aisha(RA)'s marriage agreement with a son of a non-muslim had been broken just recently so her name was suggested.

Thanks for clarifying!

 

[muzher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM4IuDVFL3s

 

[saj786]

no one should ever question the prophet mohammed

 

[Ladies Man]

No I got that wrong earlier on the other thread,

The matter was brought up by a distant female relative of the Prophet(pbuh) who suggested that the Prophet(pbuh) should marry after the passing away of Hadhrat Khadija(RA). She suggested two names for prospective proposals. Hadhrat Aisha(RA)'s marriage agreement with a son of a non-muslim had been broken just recently so her name was suggested.

You need to keep a lid on your speculative desires. Your half baked truths coupled with that lying-through-your-teeth attitude is doing more harm than good to the greated personality (PBUH) ever lived.

Stop this nonsense before Allah destroys you.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

No I got that wrong earlier on the other thread,

The matter was brought up by a distant female relative of the Prophet(pbuh) who suggested that the Prophet(pbuh) should marry after the passing away of Hadhrat Khadija(RA). She suggested two names for prospective proposals. Hadhrat Aisha(RA)'s marriage agreement with a son of a non-muslim had been broken just recently so her name was suggested.

An original source of this tale would be nice!

 

[Wazeeri]

You need to keep a lid on your speculative desires.

My speculative desires????

Your half baked truths coupled with that lying-through-your-teeth attitude is doing more harm than good to the greated personality (PBUH) ever lived.

Lying through my teeth?
I claimed that prophet(pbuh) did not initiate the proposal someone else did.
I got that someone else wrong, it was Khaula bin Hakim and not Hadhrat Abu Bakr(RA).

Stop this nonsense before Allah destroys you.

Right.

 

[Tapori]

Bumpity Bump.

Please, don't get this deleted.

 

[cric_craze]

Read this, should clear lots of things up Inshallah.


http://muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_

 

[Tapori]

Hope you read the OP too... because the above link might be good enough for some but more strenuous thinkers would say the points in that article (not to mention the writing style) are weak, esp. the ones citing solely "Culture" and never once questioning the actual source of the ages 6 and 9.

 

[ali85]

Then why would you say that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) even thought of marrying someone that young?

The matter is clear: Hazrat Rasool-e-Pak Mohammed Mustafa S.A.W. Was not an ordinary mortal. He did as Allah commanded him to do. His entire life is a miracle and I for once blindly accept all my Rasool's actions to be pure and holy as ordered by Allah - without any second thoughts.

Consider this: One time, Hazrat Mohammed S.A.W ordered a husband and wife to kill their baby because he could see that this baby would end up destroying the couple. Now should I question this?

His life is a miracle and we must understand some things he did were done under special circumstances and Allah knows best.

 

[ali85]

Personally I request mods to delete this thread. This is not a forum where we can expect Aalims (Scholars of Islam) to participate. Therefore there is a high chance of error in arguments.

Allah forgive all of us, Ameen.

 

[jeetu]

And thiis The Prophet (PBUH) we are talking about! The person ALLAH SWT chose amongst all his creations to recieve His message !

How dare we, as Muslims, question his motives for ANY aspect of his life?

Lets know our place in the universe and stick to it - the rest is ALLAHs domain.

I disagree with this line of thinking. God is infallible but Prophet was human and human makes mistakes. I'm sure what Prophet did at that time was socially acceptable. Times change and moral value according to it. Maybe we should look at our own family and inquire what was age of our grandmother and great-grandmother when they got married.

 

[azhar329]

I disagree with this line of thinking. God is infallible but Prophet was human and human makes mistakes. I'm sure what Prophet did at that time was socially acceptable. Times change and moral value according to it. Maybe we should look at our own family and inquire what was age of our grandmother and great-grandmother when they got married.

1. The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) was the best of creation and in terms of relaying the deen to mankind he did not make any mistakes.

2. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) is the Mother of the Believers and numerous ahadeeth have been narrated from her concerning the life of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) (I think she has the most number of ahadeeth attributed to her, not 100% sure though).

3. It is recorded in an authentic hadith (Imam Bukhari) that the marriage was consummated at nine years of age.

Brothers, dont let people make you feel akward. In trying to please them you might end up rejecting the authentic hadith and saying that the marriage was consummated at age 18, 19 etc. Our deen is the Truth, our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) was the Final Messenger and the best of creation and thats that.

My grandmother (may Allah forgive her and grant her Jannah) was 14 years of age when she was married. That was about 65 years ago. Now we are talking about 1400 years ago!!! And I dont think my grandmother's marriage was exceptional in the sense of her age when she was married.

This hadith has been used to attack the deen but let them; who cares ? Our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) treated his wives the best (hadith) and we shouldnt let them make us feel that he did something incorrect because he DIDN'T.

About 100 or so years ago women used to dress conservatively with long dresses, long sleeves etc; something which muslim women and men have been commanded to do; and now you see how women are dressed in 2012; What I'm trying to say is dont get caught up in trying to please them and make the deen acceptable to them from their point of view etc etc

Islam is what it is; explain it nicely and with wisdom but we shouldnt change it to please others.

 

[ecstatic_freak]

1. The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) was the best of creation and in terms of relaying the deen to mankind he did not make any mistakes.

2. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) is the Mother of the Believers and numerous ahadeeth have been narrated from her concerning the life of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) (I think she has the most number of ahadeeth attributed to her, not 100% sure though).

3. It is recorded in an authentic hadith (Imam Bukhari) that the marriage was consummated at nine years of age.

Brothers, dont let people make you feel akward. In trying to please them you might end up rejecting the authentic hadith and saying that the marriage was consummated at age 18, 19 etc. Our deen is the Truth, our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) was the Final Messenger and the best of creation and thats that.

My grandmother (may Allah forgive her and grant her Jannah) was 14 years of age when she was married. That was about 65 years ago. Now we are talking about 1400 years ago!!! And I dont think my grandmother's marriage was exceptional in the sense of her age when she was married.

This hadith has been used to attack the deen but let them; who cares ? Our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) treated his wives the best (hadith) and we shouldnt let them make us feel that he did something incorrect because he DIDN'T.

About 100 or so years ago women used to dress conservatively with long dresses, long sleeves etc; something which muslim women and men have been commanded to do; and now you see how women are dressed in 2012; What I'm trying to say is dont get caught up in trying to please them and make the deen acceptable to them from their point of view etc etc

Islam is what it is; explain it nicely and with wisdom but we shouldnt change it to please others.

Agreed !!

 

[Tapori]

azhar329

Did you actually read Zechariah's OP?

It used The Hadith to show Aisha was probably 19.

- Her presence in battle. Hadiths clearly show under 15's were not allowed to travel to battle.
- Her Age in relation to her sister and the corresponding Hadith certified dates and information.
- The lack of formal DOBs

and of course simple Islamic Principle which states a lady must be mentally and physically mature to marry at said age. Even if you take into account Historically people married younger, how can you in any capacity say a 6 year old can be engaged to a man decades older than her?


but hey, carry on justifying such slander against the prophet (PBUH) and his alleged engagement to a 6 year old.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#History_and_social_attitudes

In the United States in 1880s, the average age of consent was 10-12. In some states it was actually SEVEN years old.

Requiring consent for marriage or marital sex, as well as raising the age in which something is considered pedophilia, are all recent cultural developments. Prophet Mohammad wasn't particularly immoral for the time in that regard .Our understanding of morality is evolving.
Is it perhaps possible that having sex with people at young ages in those times wasn't as immoral as it would be now, as people matured a lot faster mentally?

To illustrate what I mean: A 12-year old in this day and age is in every aspect still a child; they have few if any responsibilities, parents still care for them completely and they aren't allowed to work. They're taken care of in every aspect, which leaves them very young mentally. They're treated like a child, so they are mentally like a child.

A good two centuries ago, however, people of those ages did not go to school, and people weren't taking care of their every need. They had to work hard and they were fully responsible for their actions. This could lead to them maturing a lot faster mentally.

I mean, it would make little sense for us to physically be ready for sex at the ages of 12-14 (periods start, hormones are released to make you horny) when kids of that age could not mentally be ready. It makes a lot more sense, to me at least, that this "reduced mental aging" is a result of the way our society raises kids, and is not completely natural. But that's to me, at least, and I'm not an


PS: Romeo and Juliet, Juliet was of prime marrying age at 13.

 

[AnotherIndian]

A few questions....

Does Muslims believe that God created Adam and Eve and we all came from them?

If we all came from 2 people, then why do we look so different? I mean Africans, Whites, Asians...

If the first people ever existed were Adam and Eve, then how did their children multiply? Surely there must be incest involved there... Isn't that against the will of God?

Does Islam approve the Adam/Eve story, Garden of Eden and Earth only 6000yrs old story? O know Bible says these things. But what about Islam

 

[azhar329]

azhar329

Did you actually read Zechariah's OP?

It used The Hadith to show Aisha was probably 19.

- Her presence in battle. Hadiths clearly show under 15's were not allowed to travel to battle.
- Her Age in relation to her sister and the corresponding Hadith certified dates and information.
- The lack of formal DOBs

and of course simple Islamic Principle which states a lady must be mentally and physically mature to marry at said age. Even if you take into account Historically people married younger, how can you in any capacity say a 6 year old can be engaged to a man decades older than her?


but hey, carry on justifying such slander against the prophet (PBUH) and his alleged engagement to a 6 year old.

First of all, please stop from saying that I am slandering the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) (Audhubillah). I am posting evidence in the form of authentic hadith which has been accepted by many, many scholars to be the correct position.

You could say that you disagree but saying that it is slander is unjustified and wrong. Please READ the following:


ANSWER:

Praise be to Allaah.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) after he married Sawdah bint Zam’ah (may Allaah be pleased with her). She – ‘Aa’ishah – was the only virgin whom he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married. And he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine years old.

Among her virtues was the fact that the Revelation did not descend when he under one cover with any of his wives other than her. She was one of the dearest of all people to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and news of her innocence was revealed from above the seven heavens. She was one of the most knowledgeable of his wives, and one of the most knowledgeable women of the ummah as a whole. The senior companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to refer to her opinion and consult her.

With regard to the story of her marriage, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had grieved over the death of the Mother of the Believers Khadeejah, who had supported him and stood by his side, and he called the year in which she died The Year of Sorrow. Then he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Sawdah, who was an older woman and was not very beautiful; rather he married her to console her after her husband had died and she stayed among mushrik people. Four years later the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), and he was over fifty. Perhaps the reasons for the marriage were as follows:

1 – He saw a dream about marrying her. It is proven in al-Bukhaari from the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “You were shown to me twice in a dream. I saw that you were wrapped in a piece of silk, and it was said, ‘This is your wife.’ I uncovered her and saw that it was you. I said, ‘If this is from Allaah then it will come to pass.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3682). As to whether this is a prophetic vision as it appears to be, or a regular dream that may be subject to interpretation, there was a difference of opinion among the scholars, as mentioned by al-Haafiz in Fath al-Baari, 9/181.

2 – The characteristics of intelligence and smartness that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had noticed in ‘Aa’ishah even as a small child, so he wanted to marry her so that she would be more able than others to transmit reports of what he did and said. In fact, as stated above, she was a reference point for the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) with regard to their affairs and rulings.

3 – The love of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for her father Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him), and the persecution that Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) had suffered for the sake of the call of truth, which he bore with patience. He was the strongest of people in faith and the most sincere in certain faith, after the Prophets.

It may be noted that among his wives were those who were young and old, the daughter of his sworn enemy, the daughter of his closest friend. One of them occupied herself with raising orphans, another distinguished herself from others by fasting and praying qiyaam a great deal… They represented all kinds of people, through whom the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was able to set out a way for the Muslims showing how to deal properly with all kinds of people. [See al-Seerah al-Nabawiyyah fi Daw’ al-Masaadir al-Asliyyah, p. 711].

With regard to the issue of her being young and your being confused about that, you should note that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) grew up in a hot country, the Arabian Peninsula. Usually in hot countries adolescence comes early and people marry early. This is how the people of Arabia were until recently. Moreover, women vary greatly in their development and their physical readiness for marriage.

If you think – may Allaah guide you – that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry any virgin other than ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), and that all his other wives had been previously married, this will refute the notion spread by many hostile sources, that the basic motive behind the Prophet’s marriages was physical desire and enjoyment of women, because if that was his intention he would have chosen only those who were virgins and beautiful etc.

Such slanders against the Prophet of Mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by kaafirs and others of their ilk, are indicative of their inability to find fault with the law and religion that he brought from Allaah, so they try to find ways to criticize Islam with regard to issues that are not related to sharee’ah.

And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions.

For more information see Zaad al-Ma’aad, 1/106.


Islam Q&A


ANSWER:

Praise be to Allaah.

The answer to your question may be found in the ahaadeeth of Saheeh al-Bukhaari and the commentary of al-Haafiz al-‘Asqallaani, which are quoted below:

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Madeenah and stayed in Bani al-Haarith ibn Khazraj. I fell ill and my hair started to fall out (due to the illness; then it grew back thick again). My mother Umm Roomaan came to me whilst I was on a swing and my friends were with me. She shouted for me and I came to her, not knowing what she wanted. She took me by the hand and led me to the door of the house. I was out of breath and we waited until I had calmed down, then she took some water and wiped my face and head, then took me inside. There were some women of the Ansaar in the house, and they said: " ‘Alaa al-khayri wa’l-baraka wa ‘ala khayri taa’ir (blessings, best wishes, etc)." My mother handed me over to them and they tidied me up, then suddenly the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was there. It was mid-morning, and they handed me over to him. At that time I was nine years old." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3605).

‘Urwah said: "Khadeejah died three years before the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) migrated to Madeenah. He stayed alone for two years or thereabouts, then he married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3607)

The phrase "he married ‘Aa’ishah" means that the marriage contract was drawn up; the marriage was consummated later on, when she was nine.

Muslim reports from al-Zuhri, from ‘Urwah, that ‘Aa’ishah said that she was taken to him when she was nine years old, and she took her toys with her. He died when she was eighteen years old. Muslim also reports a similar account from ‘Aa’ishah via al-Aswad. He reports from ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Urwah from his father that ‘Aa’ishah said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me in Shawwaal and consummated the marriage with me in Shawwaal."

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, and she stayed with him for nine years." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4738)

Al-Bukhaari calls this chapter of his Saheeh "Baab inkaah al-rajul wuldahu (or waladahu) al-sighaar (Chapter on a man marrying off his young children)." The fact that Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
". . . and for those who have no courses [periods] [(i.e., they are still immature) their ‘iddah is three months likewise, except in case of death] . . ." [al-Talaaq 65, 4]
is an indication that it is permissible to marry girls below the age of adolescence. This is a good understanding, but the aayah makes no specific mention of either the father or the young girl. It could be said that the basic principle concerning marrying children is that it is forbidden unless there is specific evidence (daleel) to indicate otherwise. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah states that her father Abu Bakr married her off before the age of puberty, but there is no other evidence apart from that, so the rule applies to all other cases.

Al- Muhallab said: "[The scholars] agreed that it is permissible for a father to marry off his young virgin daughter, even though it is not usually the case to have intercourse with such a young woman."

(The above was summarized from Fath al-Baari Sharh ‘ala Saheeh al-Bukhaari)

In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. Thus the matter becomes quite clear. Do you see anything wrong with a man living with his young wife in one house, bringing her up and teaching her, but delaying consummation until she is ready for it? We ask Allaah to show us truth and falsehood and to make each clear. And Allaah knows best.




Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

A few questions....

Does Muslims believe that God created Adam and Eve and we all came from them?

If we all came from 2 people, then why do we look so different? I mean Africans, Whites, Asians...

If the first people ever existed were Adam and Eve, then how did their children multiply? Surely there must be incest involved there... Isn't that against the will of God?

Does Islam approve the Adam/Eve story, Garden of Eden and Earth only 6000yrs old story? O know Bible says these things. But what about Islam

Adam and eve and Noah's ark .Both .Its religion ,Its a faith you can't rally make sense out of everything .You either believe it or you don't.That is the reason what its called "Faith". I am sure there are a lot of things in Hinduism (sathna-dharma) that you can't make sense of.

 

[cricfan4ever]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hUM1tBxF9hg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[cricfan4ever]

1. The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) was the best of creation and in terms of relaying the deen to mankind he did not make any mistakes.

2. Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) is the Mother of the Believers and numerous ahadeeth have been narrated from her concerning the life of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) (I think she has the most number of ahadeeth attributed to her, not 100% sure though).

3. It is recorded in an authentic hadith (Imam Bukhari) that the marriage was consummated at nine years of age.

Brothers, dont let people make you feel akward. In trying to please them you might end up rejecting the authentic hadith and saying that the marriage was consummated at age 18, 19 etc. Our deen is the Truth, our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) was the Final Messenger and the best of creation and thats that.

My grandmother (may Allah forgive her and grant her Jannah) was 14 years of age when she was married. That was about 65 years ago. Now we are talking about 1400 years ago!!! And I dont think my grandmother's marriage was exceptional in the sense of her age when she was married.

This hadith has been used to attack the deen but let them; who cares ? Our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) treated his wives the best (hadith) and we shouldnt let them make us feel that he did something incorrect because he DIDN'T.

About 100 or so years ago women used to dress conservatively with long dresses, long sleeves etc; something which muslim women and men have been commanded to do; and now you see how women are dressed in 2012; What I'm trying to say is dont get caught up in trying to please them and make the deen acceptable to them from their point of view etc etc

Islam is what it is; explain it nicely and with wisdom but we shouldnt change it to please others.

good post

 

[Tapori]

First of all, please stop from saying that I am slandering the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) (Audhubillah). I am posting evidence in the form of authentic hadith which has been accepted by many, many scholars to be the correct position.

Again, Evidence wise, when the vast array of other Authentic Hadith, as the OP points out, lead to Hazrat Aisha's age being anything but 6 or 9 during marriage, then why not focus on that rather than justifying two Hadith which clearly contradict the others?

It is slander, because no amount of cultural relativism can declare a 6 year old as having the capability of being Islamically mature enough to consent to a marriage with a man decades older when the Hadith cited for this even admits she wasn't of a mature age!

You can interpret the Quranic verse in order to allow Parents to betroth young girls to the household in which they marry the man later; I and many others wouldn't as That would be Islamically wrong as the Girl has no say in the matter.

The only basis for this claim are two Hadith; The rest of the Authentic Hadith, as the OP has shown time and again, point to her being 16-19.

But hey, if you want to believe in those two Hadith so much in the face of many more Authentic Hadith logically contradicting them, not to mention the Quran's rules of Marrriage and other inconsistencies in the claims of the two Hadith cited for the 6-year old claim, then good luck spreading the message...

Answer me this: Can you find any other example of Islamic Engagements conducted with 6 year old girls and decades older men, during the time of the Sahabbah?

We can find evidence of people Islamically marrying older women, marrying different tribes, marrying different races, but you'd be hard pressed to find the whole 6- year old enagement/marriage later, angle.

If such practices did take place elsewhere, then they contradicted the Quran.

In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. Thus the matter becomes quite clear. Do you see anything wrong with a man living with his young wife in one house, bringing her up and teaching her, but delaying consummation until she is ready for it? We ask Allaah to show us truth and falsehood and to make each clear. And Allaah knows best.

According to him.

I and many others, including Academics, disagree with not only this Scholars opinion but that there exist other Authentic Hadith that contradict his findings, speak for themselves.

The key question is Quranically, where does the girls consent come into this? If she has been married off as a pre-pubescent, then theres no way she has consented and that goes against the central tenet of the Quran, which implores individual empowerment during Marriage choice.

My grandmother (may Allah forgive her and grant her Jannah) was 14 years of age when she was married. That was about 65 years ago. Now we are talking about 1400 years ago!!! And I dont think my grandmother's marriage was exceptional in the sense of her age when she was married.

Non-sequitur and you know it. No-one said that was wrong.

There's 14 years old mature lady back in the day.

Then there is 6 years old. Difference, no?

The only thing stopping people agreeing with the OP is that they blindly believe that Bukhari is 100 percent right and that all the narrators were 100 percent right.

That in itself goes against the logic of Imam Maliki the first Hadith compiler, who commented that he could be wrong and that Allah knows best.

‘Urwah said: "Khadeejah died three years before the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) migrated to Madeenah. He stayed alone for two years or thereabouts, then he married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old."

+

Al-Bukhaari calls this chapter of his Saheeh "Baab inkaah al-rajul wuldahu (or waladahu) al-sighaar (Chapter on a man marrying off his young children)." The fact that Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
". . . and for those who have no courses [periods] [(i.e., they are still immature) their ‘iddah is three months likewise, except in case of death] . . ." [al-Talaaq 65, 4]
is an indication that it is permissible to marry girls below the age of adolescence. This is a good understanding, but the aayah makes no specific mention of either the father or the young girl. It could be said that the basic principle concerning marrying children is that it is forbidden unless there is specific evidence (daleel) to indicate otherwise. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah states that her father Abu Bakr married her off before the age of puberty, but there is no other evidence apart from that, so the rule applies to all other cases.

So Quran wise even he admits there is no basis for it but because Bukhari included it and gave his opinion on it, it must have happened, yeah? It must be right yeah?

In his opinion!


How can you allow a pre-pubescent lady to Marry? Even if you put it into the above context, it's still a marriage, so how is the Nikkah Islamically valid? Because of those Hadith and Imam Bukhari? Please.

I suggest rather than blindly following things, you read the Cultural practices in place historically in that region before the Quran was revealed; it might help you understand why the Quran doesn't allow such child marriages.

Such Marriages were prevalent in some Pagan communities, Persian cimmunities (Including practices such as Mutt'a) and the some Christian communities who use direct quotes from the bible to justify this abhorrent practice of child-marriage.

Which is what they are. As the Hadith you cite, clearly state that consummation took place upon puberty. That's ok then yeah? Marry off a child, into a family and when she reaches puberty, lo and behold, the marriage which took place when she was a child is not only valid but now, whether she likes it or not, this man is now her husband.

Such clear logic and reason I am absolutely speechless. Genius isn't it?

So what are you going to believe?

The majority of other Authentic Hadith That support The Quran and have her age as nowhere near 6 or 9?

Or a certain Scholars Opinion + two Hadith which actively go against the Quran and the other Authentic hadith?

 

[Tapori]

Might I also add that the specific Hadith allegedly coming from Hazrat Aisha citing her 6 year old age at the time of marriage,. cannot be read without the context of the Political, ideological Islamic Tensions, raging before and at the time Imam Bukhari compiled his collection of the Hadith.

It's what she allegedly said; That too, 100's of years later after her death.
Despite the rigorous Scholarship of the time we have the benefit of hindsight, more sources and more information then those commenting on the matter then.

I'd encourage everyone to read Academic discourse on this period from objective Muslim Academics/Historians if you don't trust the Kaafirs...

 

[Tapori]

AnotherIndian

Hate to sound like a mod, but allow this thread to discuss this topic. If you have unrelated questions I hope you start your own thread. Thanks,

Does Muslims believe that God created Adam and Eve and we all came from them?

It's "Do muslims" not Does.

Depends on interpretation. The Quran is the only Relgious scripture that clealry states Mankind came to be from soil/clay and water.

Evolutionarily, based on scientific empirical evidence which mounts day upon day, we know this to be true, that all life most likely originated from this cocktail.

Some Muslims take the Evangelical Interpreation that everything is what it is and was and was put their directly by God without a key mechanism in place. It just came to be.

Many Muslims and Christians believe that Evolution is Allah/god's mechanism for creating the Humans we see today. The beauty of the Quran is that it is not rigid like the Christian Genesis which states that the world is 6000 years old.

As Thomas Payne remarked, Mankind can discover the principles of Nature that God has put in place, but Mankind cannot himself create these or indeed new Laws of Nature; they exist as de facto forces. It is for us to discover them. That needn't negate our faith.

Adam and Even in the Quran, is far more metaphorical than the account in the Bible, and can subjectively and logically be interpreted according to which Philosophy you adhere to.

 

[Tapori]

from_da_lost_dim3nsion

I genuinely agree with your whole post; Even Ghalib the great poet married when he was but a teenager.

So logically, by Islam and the Quran, how can you marry a 6 year old that hasn't reached puberty yet, to a man decades older than her?

 

[Tapori]

Let me just make one thing clear: Those who deny this claim doesn´t mean they are question The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) or his motives, rather the historical facts we are presented with which to some are correct and to some not.

Peace!

My stance before anyone tries the whole K word stuff...

 

[MC]

Interesting discussion going on...

Can anyone please tell me the age of Hazrat Fatima RA when she got married? I know its not on topic but I'm genuinely interested in knowing. Thanks.

 

[Tapori]

Interesting discussion going on...

Brother please, we must accept what we are told and delete this thread, less we actually debate, listen to other views and come to a different conclusion from what we believe to be true... (Sarc.)

 

[Asif khan]

Hadrat Aisha RA was clearly mature enough because she was previously engaged to someone else. Besides, there are conflicting Hadith on the exact age although i do happen to think she was a late teenager at the time.

The subject of her age is usually a means to attack the beloved Prophet (Pbuh) by the Christians who are usually ignorant of Mary's age of conceiving Jesus in Biblical scripture.

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

This book refutes almost all arguments made in the OP's article. I urge everyone interested to go through it, inshallah. http://freepdfhosting.com/fd5166b137.pdf

 

[Tapori]

^ Decent rebuttal, but you should summarise Ayman's points to allow the discussion to flow.

 

[azhar329]

This book refutes almost all arguments made in the OP's article. I urge everyone interested to go through it, inshallah. http://freepdfhosting.com/fd5166b137.pdf

Jazak'Allah khair ARFan and may Allah reward bro Ayman with Jannah for his efforts, ameen.

 

[AnotherIndian]

Adam and eve and Noah's ark .Both .Its religion ,Its a faith you can't rally make sense out of everything .You either believe it or you don't.That is the reason what its called "Faith". I am sure there are a lot of things in Hinduism (sathna-dharma) that you can't make sense of.

There are a lot of things that don't make sense to me in Hinduism too. That is why I don't follow it. Especially the rituals.

But the story of Noah's ark, Adam/Eve, Earth being only 6000yrs old sound totally ridiculous.

If it is just about faith, I might as well believe in flying Spaghetti Monster and Buggy man. I can start my own religion too

 

[Tapori]

^ Do open a thread about this. I hope we get to read about your new religion.

I would say a belief in a God is not synonymous with following organized religion. Your questions are really off this topic.

 

[Tapori]

Jazak'Allah khair ARFan and may Allah reward bro Ayman with Jannah for his efforts, ameen.

So only people that agree with your view are to be prayed for rewards? Do you think anyone disagreeing with you is somehow insincere in their quest for truth?

In any case, Ayman's PDF document, which I again ask AbdulRazzaqFan to summarise as to it's key points to encourage discussion, does not address this central contradiction:

If the Age of Hazrat Aisha was indeed 9, The Two Hadiths cited, state her age at the time of Marriage as being 6 - Which is it?

If you agree she married at 6 and then consummated the marriage at 9, that in of itself is against the Quranic principle of Maturity and freedom of choice when it comes to Marriage, irregardless of any cultural relativism.

The Hadiths which cite she married at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9 are contradictory to the Quranic principles of Marrigae by this very statement. Culture cannot trump Quranic principles!

Likewise there is no evidence of any of the People at the time of the first few Caliphs and during the Prophets time as exercising the same type of Marriage Islamically.

His point about it's cultural history can be argued back against him, as he then has to find Islamic Marriages of 6 year olds in the Islamic Era of that time other than that recorded as allegedly being taken place.

Ayman regulalry cites Hadith which mention Mesnturating girls at 9; Again how can Ayman argue that Mensturation is a de facto sign of Maturity with reagrds to Marriage?

Secondly, Ayman is not entirely sincere himself for this reason:

At no point does Ayman propose that he could be wrong.

At no point does he countenance that as the Hadith were transmitted by and written by Humans, that their could be any errors. Moreover he admonishes anyone for even questioning his favoured Imams.

His other points about the nature of the Hadith cited by the OP can be argued subjectively either way, as his arguments are derived, logically I admit, on a subjective reading of the verses.


Nor does he mention that there were and are and always have been Scholars, Imams and Islamic Philsophers and indeed Caliphs that have not relied on or actively used the Hadith to derive Religious Rulings or to have blindly followed what a certain School of Scholars have said as 100 percent the word of the Prophet.

The biggest lie you have ever been told is that Scholars were in agreement;
Read history and you find the same debate about Hadith relevance, Quran interpreatation etc, we are having now, has been a Valid part of Islamic Internal Discourse as any other well-known school today.

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

So only people that agree with your view are to be prayed for rewards? Do you think anyone disagreeing with you is somehow insincere in their quest for truth?

In any case, Ayman's PDF document, which I again ask AbdulRazzaqFan to summarise as to it's key points to encourage discussion, does not address this central contradiction:

I think the article is pretty concise. It's only 38 Pages and I don't see why I should summarise it. My summary won't do justice to the subject at hand. It's a refutation of the article in the OP. Lets discuss the relevant points from it, if you want. It shouldn't take too long to read since it's not too long.

If the Age of Hazrat Aisha was indeed 9, The Two Hadiths cited, state her age at the time of Marriage as being 6 - Which is it?

Abu bakar (ra) gave her hand to the Prophet saw at the age of 6 in terms of nikah and the marriage was consummated at the age of 9.

If you agree she married at 6 and then consummated the marriage at 9, that in of itself is against the Quranic principle of Maturity and freedom of choice when it comes to Marriage, irregardless of any cultural relativism.

Firstly, there was always a wisdom behind Prophet saw's marriages and each marriage should be studied on it's own. Second, in Islamic Sharia a woman can annhilate marriage upon reaching maturity if she doesn't want to be married to the person her father married her to at a young age. Thus the freedom of choice remains intact.

The Hadiths which cite she married at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9 are contradictory to the Quranic principles of Marrigae by this very statement. Culture cannot trump Quranic principles!

Lol, where is that principle written in Quran? There were many things that were a culture back then and Islam didn't ban all of them rather regulated some of the cultural practices, such as slavery.

Likewise there is no evidence of any of the People at the time of the first few Caliphs and during the Prophets time as exercising the same type of Marriage Islamically.

Go read some history before you make such ill-informed statements. Hadrat Umar ibn Khattab (farooq) (ra) was married to Hadrat Ali's (ra) daughter Umme Kulsum (ra) who was around the age of 10-12 at the time of her marriage according to Sunni historians. And some even think that she was younger.

His point about it's cultural history can be argued back against him, as he then has to find Islamic Marriages of 6 year olds in the Islamic Era of that time other than that recorded as allegedly being taken place.

Ayman regulalry cites Hadith which mention Mesnturating girls at 9; Again how can Ayman argue that Mensturation is a de facto sign of Maturity with reagrds to Marriage?

What do you mean by mature? Physical maturity or mental? If you mean the latter then please cite Quranic verse which states this principle for marriage. But if you mean physical, then, if you'd read the narrations that Brother Ayman cited carefully, you would've known that he also cited examples where girls became "mothers" at the age of 9 which indicates that they must've hit puberty before the age of 9.

Secondly, Ayman is not entirely sincere himself for this reason:

At no point does Ayman propose that he could be wrong.

Why should he? He's a learned individual and knows the principles of accepting and rejecting ahadith.

At no point does he countenance that as the Hadith were transmitted by and written by Humans, that their could be any errors. Moreover he admonishes anyone for even questioning his favoured Imams.

He doesn't need to since whichever version you accept is transmitted through humans, he and majority of us accept the version which we find authentically reported as oppose to the other ones.

His other points about the nature of the Hadith cited by the OP can be argued subjectively either way, as his arguments are derived, logically I admit, on a subjective reading of the verses.

How? Only an ignorant person without the knowledge of hadith sciences would argue that.

Nor does he mention that there were and are and always have been Scholars, Imams and Islamic Philsophers and indeed Caliphs that have not relied on or actively used the Hadith to derive Religious Rulings or to have blindly followed what a certain School of Scholars have said as 100 percent the word of the Prophet.

Who told you that? Did you just made that up?

The biggest lie you have ever been told is that Scholars were in agreement;
Read history and you find the same debate about Hadith relevance, Quran interpreatation etc, we are having now, has been a Valid part of Islamic Internal Discourse as any other well-known school today.

Please enlighten us which credible scholars of the past or present have denied the relevance of ahadith?

 

[azhar329]

@tapori

Have you never said words to the effect of "top post, well said, excellent post etc etc etc" to any other member ?

Nobody is preventing anyone from making dua for another individual nor am I questioning their sincerity if they happen to disagree with me.

I could say the same to you but I wont.

 

[Tapori]

I think the article is pretty concise. It's only 38 Pages and I don't see why I should summarise it. My summary won't do justice to the subject at hand. It's a refutation of the article in the OP. Lets discuss the relevant points from it, if you want. It shouldn't take too long to read since it's not too long.

If the OP could post the concise article here, then you should consider affording the same level of discourse here. The PDF should rightly be posted as your reference, but you should have faith in summarising the key refutations of the OP's points rather than throwing the whole 38 pages into the ring.

If I'd wanted I could say: Read this book - It won't take the debate further unless I Summarise it's key points or relevance to the debate.

Abu bakar (ra) gave her hand to the Prophet saw at the age of 6 in terms of nikah and the marriage was consummated at the age of 9.

So Ibn-Hurwah narrates. The Quran's pre-requisites for marriage, other Hadith and his own Pupil disagree.

Firstly, there was always a wisdom behind Prophet saw's marriages and each marriage should be studied on it's own.

Agreed. Which is fine as we aren't debating this, but debating whether the marriage took place at the age ibn Hurwah says it did.

Many would conclude that based on the Prophets propensity to marry women of intellect, it would be inconceivable that he would marry a pre-pubescent 6 year old without her own permission and thus act against the Quran.

Second, in Islamic Sharia a woman can annhilate marriage upon reaching maturity if she doesn't want to be married to the person her father married her to at a young age. Thus the freedom of choice remains intact.

She could; But that is what every married lady is entitled to. Strawman alert!

The issue is whether the Quran gives permission for Parents to marry their children at a pre-pubescent age. It doesn't and you know it.

If a cultural practice existed then, then it existed in tribes in the time of Jahiliyah, and should tell you why such Hadith may have been narrated and why the Quran did not condone the practice but instead stated clearly against it. Note too the emphasis on Education in the Quranic verse too.

No evidence exists that such pre-pubescent marriages took place in a an Islamic context at the time of the Prophet... Well unless you believe ibn Hurwah over the Quran's own conditions for Consent and Marriage.

I disagree that that occurred at the age you believe, as it would logically be an act that went against this Quranic verse:

4 : 6 - Pickthall (But all translations say the same essentially - openburhan.com)

Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

Adding to this, how can a pre-pubescent girl decide or have decided for herself, who she is to marry and be of sound judgment?

How can she undertake divorce proceedings at that age should she change her mind? Remember, the marriage begins from when it takes place, not this "Marry now as a child; Consummate as an Adult" angle...

We know people reach sexual maturity often before reaching mental maturity or a state of "Sound Judgement"

But hey don't use Aql, or Sound Judgement, because Ibn-Hurwah narrated it and Bukhari included it, it must be 100 percent true, yeah?

What do you mean by mature? Physical maturity or mental? If you mean the latter then please cite Quranic verse which states this principle for marriage. But if you mean physical, then, if you'd read the narrations that Brother Ayman cited carefully, you would've known that he also cited examples where girls became "mothers" at the age of 9 which indicates that they must've hit puberty before the age of 9.

Lol - So Islam condones marrying women solely due to the first sign of Mensturation? Nothing to do with Mental Maturity?

My My, what a nuanced view of Islam and Marriage you have!

Both Mental and Physical maturity plays a key part as quoted. You think 6 year-olds are capable of sound judgement when it comes to marriage, then good luck to you.

The Quran makes clear you marry a lady that can take care of financial affairs and run a household.

Can a 6-year old do this? In any Culture, that is far-fetched in the extreme.

So you missed the point. Brother Ayman is so determined to prove this thing about 9 year olds being physically mature, he neglects to mention that the Quran holds:

Marriage is when one Physically and mentally matures.

Now we all don't believe that for a man, pubic hair or for a lady, the act of menstruation is an automatic normal indicator, let alone Islamic indicator, that she he or she is ready for marriage.

Yet let us assume that yes, a 6 year old, on account of reaching Mensturation, is thus allowed to be married...

How would that indicate Sound Judgement on her part, if she has to wait 3 years before allegedly reaching sexual Maturity?

You couldn't make it up... Oh wait; someone already did.

Go read some history before you make such ill-informed statements. Hadrat Umar ibn Khattab (farooq) (ra) was married to Hadrat Ali's (ra) daughter Umme Kulsum (ra) who was around the age of 10-12 at the time of her marriage according to Sunni historians. And some even think that she was younger.

Oh I do love Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz; Did Hazrat Umar sanction or marry a pre-pubescent 6 year old? No. Neither did the Prophet for that matter. But hey... whatever you want to justify.

I also love it when people shift goalposts - I was referring clealry to the Islamically sanctioned marriages of 6 year old pre-pubescents.

But 6 years old and that too as a pre-pubescent. Tut Tut.

Why should he? He's a learned individual and knows the principles of accepting and rejecting ahadith.

Because this shows he is unobjective and thus Unscientific.

But Hadith Analysis is a Science, yeah?

How? Only an ignorant person without the knowledge of hadith sciences would argue that.

I bow to his infinite Knowledge. If only we had more Science of the Hadith then we could show Historians and Academics that have given us everything from the Medicine you use, to the Electricity that powers your PC, how it's truly done.

Without such Science, how else would I be able to know about the Prophet's (PBUH) intimate relations with his wives or indeed that dipping a fly completely into my food if it lands upon it, is necessary, as one wing carries the illness and the other the cure.

Jokes aside, a true science updates it's methodology in light of new thoughts, ideas and evidence - Go ask a Real Scientist.

We can't or are not allowed to countenance that maybe the Scholars back then didn't have the benefit of Historical, Religious, and Contextual Hindsight in determining their opinions. Which is what they are. Their Opinions. Well Some of the Scholars.

They did the best they could but they are not beyond error or questioning. Imam Maliki admitted as much, but hey, lets ignore this humble part of the first man to attempt to even compile the Hadith, hey?

Or better yet, lets ignore any other School in that time-period that disagreed with the 4 main Schools - Only the 4 are right yeah?

Well unless you're Shia...