Relations with Israel could help Pakistan, says former president Musharraf

[AZ]

What benefit will we gain from Israel? Will they really transfer any technology to us? Does Israel have anything else to give us?

Where is Musharraf suggesting we get our oil from?
Where is Musharraf suggesting we shift our expats once we lose access to the middle eastern labour market?
Most important of all what should our response be to the attrocities against the Palestinians?
We are already stuck with the attrocities on the Chinese muslims, do we really need to make alliances with more oppressors.

I don't think we would lost out on those 2 really...as if now it is in fact non-GCC Arabs (all except Jordanians) who are not being issued new visas to the UAE.

 

[WithLoveFromCanada]

You've spent 60 years for the Palestine Cause, for the Iraq cause, for the Afghan cause for the Chechnya cause, for the Bosnia cause for the Timbaktoo cause....where it has left your country? After 60 years of bad experience, you want to continue your support for other muslim countries who wont do sh-it when your own country is in trouble? Who was standing with Pakistan when OBL (an arab terrorist) was found in Pakistan? 9/11 wasn't done by Pakistanis, they were all arabs and still Pakistan is feeling the heat why? because we portray ourselves as the champions of Islam. At least after 60 years educated people should understand that its every country for itself and we should look for our own progress first rather than saving others from fire when our own house is burning!

Again it doesn't matter what the Arab countries do, we are taking a moral stand on the issue and not looking for any gain.

Do you really want the embassy of the most oppressive regime in recent history in Islamabad?

Pakistan is not in trouble because of all those things you outlined. I don't know why you think they are linked.

DeadlyVenom you're not replying to my points. You're conveniently ignoring them. Tell me where I'm wrong in my post. How about you go and raise the point of morality to those arab nations who have accepted israel? Why did they do it? Please don't raise morality point with Arabs. You , I and other people know how full of morals modern day Arab leaders are.

The Great Khan - if you've something to share than come up with facts. Just saying others are speaking rubbish wont help it. Tell me one thing we have gained by supporting all the World wide muslim causes and ignoring Israel when some Arab countries in the region have accepted Israel. I've quoted my post here again so that you read before you reply.

 

[AZ]

why should we give a toss what the Arab nations do with Israel?!

do they dictate to us on what point we take a moral stance?!

 

[WithLoveFromCanada]

why should we give a toss what the Arab nations do with Israel?!

do they dictate to us on what point we take a moral stance?!

Because Palestine Israel fall into Arab Region and Pakistan is not even connected with Israel or Palestine. If Arab countries in the region with Palestine and Israel are developing policies for their self interest than why us being so far away from them are bent on poking our finger in their business? Had we been a super power in the world like US maybe then it would have made sense for us to dictate terms and raise voice for Palestines but we're a developing country! We should look to develop ourselves and stand on our own feet before raising voice for others.

 

[AZ]

how are we poking into their business?

what resources has Pakistan diverted/sacrificed to counter Israel?

is it too much for us to voice our outrage against their inhumane treatment of Palestinians and do dua for their betterment?

 

[Liberty]

I guess the fact that Palestine is not on a map made up by wankers post-WWII means everything.

The fact that Palestinian land was just magically given to Israelis after WWII and since then starving Palestinians and sending them further and further into poverty means jacksh1t with Chaudhry Musharaf.

Is he trolling us?

 

[WithLoveFromCanada]

how are we poking into their business?

what resources has Pakistan diverted/sacrificed to counter Israel?

is it too much for us to voice our outrage against their inhumane treatment of Palestinians and do dua for their betterment?

We've poked in their matter since our birth. Right from word go we made an unnecessary enemy in the form of Israel. We could have stayed neutral earlier.

We've spent a lot on our security because we've ill feeling with major players in the region such as India, Israel, Russia and US (50-50). Only china is your friend with whom you've no security issues.

No its not too much. See how Turkey treats Israel Palestine conflict. We can follow that model too. Turkey is able to raise voice for Palestine on official level against Israel and in a much better way. I dont need to go far but remember how Pakistanis shared Turkish PM's bravery on forums / facebook / social media when he refused to shake hand with Israeli leader?

 

[Liberty]

Because Palestine Israel fall into Arab Region and Pakistan is not even connected with Israel or Palestine. If Arab countries in the region with Palestine and Israel are developing policies for their self interest than why us being so far away from them are bent on poking our finger in their business?

So? A dead Palestinian is a dead person. When you commit an act knowing that it will result in the the complete genocidal of people, it is still death. If the Pak Government consider these actions to be morally reprehensible, the government should keep its distance from such an evil entity.

 

[Asif khan]

By not supporting, what have we gained? Refer to my last post.

Go read history. If you want to become a powerful nation you've to live with the game makers and learn. Muslims ruled south asia but Brits took it away. They didnt come up from day 1 and said "we're here to fight you". Instead they developed themselves in the region by being friends of muslims and then when they were strong enough, then they were able to deprive muslims of the rule.

Forget history for a minute....Pak have been supporting the game makers in their so-called 'war on terror' and please tell me, what have they gained?

 

[Wazeeri]

AZ

We have received a lifeline of free oil supply so many times from the Saudis. Our oil supply will get affected.

Secondly we get preference over India which has 7 times our population when it comes to access to work visas in the middle east inc saudi just because of the sense of myslim solidarity.

Leaving the morality of it all aside we would lose out strategically.

 

[Wazeeri]

WithLoveFromCanada

Can you please list the things we will gain working with Israel. A tangible list of items??
Do you really think they will pass on nuclear technology to us?
Will they pass on military technology to us?
Do they have advances in any other technology which we cant gain from the europeans?

Pakistan has worked so hard to diversify their dependencies. Today if the most cowardly of Pakistani leadership can block nato supplies, its because America is not our only source of funds and weapons. Pakistan has countered America with China and the middle east. You want us to put oyr eggs back into one basket again.

 

[Itachi]

Forget history for a minute....Pak have been supporting the game makers in their so-called 'war on terror' and please tell me, what have they gained?

WLFC has made some valid points.

The fact that supporting war on terror backfired because pakistan became a pushover.

Diplomatic agreement is a very clever idea. Look at indias stance on this.

 

[the Great Khan]

Wlfc i cant give yu a detailed response as im on a smartphone but soon as i get onto my pc i will do so..however in short the suppory for the palestinian cause is ideological and moral..it is in spite of what the arabs think or do..i will go into detail on the ideology bit later..

Ultimatley recognising isreal is like letting a wolf into your chicken coop..

 

[USaqaf]

You know what, this might be a radical thought, but im sick and tired of everyone especially Pakistani politicians using the Palestinian issue for populist gain.

Think about it, we have millions in our country who are basically nothing more than serfs, these people have absolutely no chance to better themselves in their own country, though they are under no occupation. But they are trapped by the landlords, they , their fathers and their children work for peanuts tiling the land essentially as bonded slaves.

Where is the justice in that, free ones own people from their own before talking about Palestine.

 

[Wazeeri]

You know what, this might be a radical thought, but im sick and tired of everyone especially Pakistani politicians using the Palestinian issue for populist gain.

uSAFAQ

Although you make a good point about the oppression in Pakistan, Idon't know of any leader in PK who has made a career out of the Palestinian issue. Please name some.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Like it or loathe it..... Pakistan is too dependant on the goodwill from SA in particular..... How is it in Pakistan's interest to upset them?

 

[lahori]

Best thing to happen to this country?

Record number of frauds
Record number of loan defaults
Land allotments to political partners and relatives
Ruined our security situation
Ruined our economy,

Lets accept that he is 10000 times better than the current leaders, can you please remind us who brought these current leaders back with the NRO?

Don't agree with your other statements other than NRO. If anything they apply more so today than in Mush's time. Have you lived or visited Pakistan for an extended period of time to face ground reality there buddy? It seems you haven't because you can easily compare living standard between Mush's era and today. And let me tell you today, it is hell for Pakistanis.

 

[Asif khan]

WLFC has made some valid points.

The fact that supporting war on terror backfired because pakistan became a pushover.

Diplomatic agreement is a very clever idea. Look at indias stance on this.

Pushover? How so? Pakistan ran around like dogs appeasing the imperialist USA but it was never enough for them, they still demanded more. Now that the US have have had their rear ends kicked by the ragtag army of peasants they are directing the humiliation at Pakistan.

I suggest you get your head out of the sand before you cook up ignorant statements.

Diplomatic agreement with Israel? Fair enough but i don't think deals should be made with murderers, do you?

 

[Wazeeri]

Lahori bhai you will find it difficult to argue with facts. I may not have this great insight into Pakistani life that you seem to magically have but atleast I have a memory span which lasts more than a few months. (btw spent 6 weeks there last yr and will be going again for four weeks for my wedding soon, hopefully will be able to catch up on your incredible jnsight jnto Pakistani life from abroad).

Anyway your great leader is backtrackinv on his israel comments so no point discussing this.

 

[akheR]

Diplomatic agreement with Israel? Fair enough but i don't think deals should be made with murderers, do you?

No, but throw 30 billions dollars at the greatest criminals, to get toys, is halal, and we, insignificant nation of Pakistan, can't say anything:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/w...ted-states-bolsters-ties-to-saudi-arabia.html

Oh, and don't think that these weapons will go to the Hamas & co for the holy Palestinian cause; with a minimum of political awareness, you easily guess that these same weapons will be filled with Iranian blood...

Shias, so what.

Yes, Saudi Arabia gives some million of dollars to Pakistan and open schools in AK, but should we base our foreign policy on ifs and buts, esp. when Saudi Arabia itself does a billion time worse ? We are not one of the multiple states of an imaginary federation called the United Islamic Brotherhood; we are Pakistan, we have our own (sometimes somnolent) sovereignty, and our political decisions should be made in regards to our own interests.

Like Saudi Arabia works for its own interests, and I don't blame them...

Saudi Arabia, OPEC’s leading oil producer and rising BRIC superstar India are deepening their energy ties.
India is seeking massive foreign investment of nearly $1 trillion over the next 5-7 years.
...
Saudi Arabia is the largest economy in the Middle East and posted the best economic performance in 2011 in two decades despite the ongoing global recession. In 2011 Saudi Arabian-Indian bilateral trade was worth more than $25 billion.
...
Needless to say, neighbouring energy-poor Muslim Pakistan will be watching the developments very closely, as its Hindu nemesis draws closer to the government of “The Land of the Two Holy Places” in a “strategic partnership."

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Allah-s-Energy-Marriage-Saudi-Arabia-and-India.html

...because they have the intelligence enough to not give a toss about what we could think - but I agree that Pakistanis also benefit from the bilateral trade between both countries.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/318194/saudi-arabia-to-import-thousands-of-pakistani-doctors/

 

[soton]

There is substantial evidence to suggest that some members of pakistani establishment specially its army had secret relationship with Israel.Otherwise how can one explain the role of former pakistani president who led the massacre of 25000 palestinians during the black september carnage.

Although majority of pakistani people unanimously support palestinians in their just struggle.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy II using Tapatalk

 

[KingKhanWC]

How ?

What is wrong with diplomatic ties ? Egypt , Turkey have diplomatic ties with them heck Iran even recognized Israel .

Turkey is a member of Nato, they have little choice.

Egypt is run by a military dictatorship who is financed by the US.

By not recognizing them and having nothing to do with them is making zilch of a difference in the lives of Palestinians so Pakistanis might as well try making a good difference in their own lives .

By recognising them won't make a difference either but give will allow Israel to be recognised as a legitmiate state which it is not.

Obviously , i do appreciate our stance on this Palestinian issue but quite frankly , we need to help ourselves first before trying to help out others .

Ideally , that is what i would want but knowing are leaders , who are too easily dictated by others . I fear they are going to push Pakistan further into a deeper hole .

This argument about Pakistani's need to help themselves is utterly foolish.

Jerusalem is a holy city in Islam, the third most holiest in Islam. If the Israeli's one day decide to re-build their temple where the Al-Aqsa mosque stands it will send shockwaves around the whole Muslim world including Pakistan. Any relations with Israel will mean nothing then.

In fact Israel knows this that's why they have been working towards ridding of Pakistan's nukes.

Let there be no doubt Zionism is the enemy of Muslims.

 

[WithLoveFromCanada]

Turkey is a member of Nato, they have little choice.

Egypt is run by a military dictatorship who is financed by the US.



By recognising them won't make a difference either but give will allow Israel to be recognised as a legitmiate state which it is not.

Posted by KingKhanWC - This argument about Pakistani's need to help themselves is utterly foolish.

Jerusalem is a holy city in Islam, the third most holiest in Islam. If the Israeli's one day decide to re-build their temple where the Al-Aqsa mosque stands it will send shockwaves around the whole Muslim world including Pakistan. Any relations with Israel will mean nothing then.

In fact Israel knows this that's why they have been working towards ridding of Pakistan's nukes.

Let there be no doubt Zionism is the enemy of Muslims.

Your point on Turkey - WRONG. Turkey's stance against Israel was most appreciated few days back. They're sovereign enough to make their own decisions.

Your point on Egypt - WRONG. Pakistan has always been under US influence and financial aid but US couldn't dictate our stance on Israel. Egypt is a muslim country so why public dont revolt against their government approach towards Israel? Why world never saw Egyptians burning flag of US and Israel??? Why is it Pakistan always on the cover of Newsweek with a random weirdo burning flag of Israel?? The recent revolt in Egypt was against Mubarak and not on Israel. They have got a new government through election in November 2011 but yet they haven't changed their stance on Israel. They're looking to prosper themselves.

This argument about Pakistani's need to help themselves is utterly foolish.



You've rightfully shown why Pakistan is in this mess.

Now coming to your point on Jerusalem and Al Aqsa. You seem to not read the posts you quote. Please read the messages completely before you quote them. He said you cant make foreign policy on ifs and buts and again you discussed the possibility of if and but. Obviously if Israel does that than whole muslim world will stand against them.

Zionism according to you are enemies of muslims but why only Pakistan echoes that point? I've said this time and again and nobody is coming up with any substantial facts. Tell me why the whole arab land cant stand up against Israel and break all their ties since they're the most oppressing regime (there goes the morality point which is all you guys are talking about)??? Why its only Pakistan who has to stand up? You've stood up for last 60 years, what it has given you? Yet when Pakistan is in trouble no arab countries stood up with Pakistan. OBL was arab why arabs cant take responsibility of him and his team? When 9/11 wasn't done by Pakistanis than why Pakistan suffered from the whole muslim backlash thing because you've portrayed yourself as the champion of Islam.

 

[WithLoveFromCanada]

Forget history for a minute....Pak have been supporting the game makers in their so-called 'war on terror' and please tell me, what have they gained?

My point was that we should not poke our nose in others affairs. Let Arabs deal with Palestine Israel thing. We're not even there physically.

However by calling Israel our enemy, we're giving fuel to the fire and having one more enemy against us. We're already short on friends.

We should have stayed away from War on Terror just like we should have stayed away from every other world matter because we're not a superpower or a strong country. Now why war on terror started? Because 9/11 happened right? who was involved in 9/11? you may say that there wasn't muslims involved and I will say it too but the whole world doesnt work on what you and I think. The general consensus is that it was done by Arabs so it should have been arabs who should have dealt with the after effects of War on Terror and not us. By the way, most of the arab countries supported War on Terror. There again goes the morality point.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Your point on Turkey - WRONG. Turkey's stance against Israel was most appreciated few days back. They're sovereign enough to make their own decisions.

Which stance?

Turkey has a military alliance with Israel. Although they have cancelled some military contracts they are officially still partners when it comes to military excercises.

Being a member of Nato gives Turkey little sovereignity when making military decisions.

Your point on Egypt - WRONG. Pakistan has always been under US influence and financial aid but US couldn't dictate our stance on Israel. Egypt is a muslim country so why public dont revolt against their government approach towards Israel? Why world never saw Egyptians burning flag of US and Israel??? Why is it Pakistan always on the cover of Newsweek with a random weirdo burning flag of Israel?? The recent revolt in Egypt was against Mubarak and not on Israel. They have got a new government through election in November 2011 but yet they haven't changed their stance on Israel. They're looking to prosper themselves.

I think you may be ignorant here.

Egyptian people have many times burned the Israeli flag. Not too long ago someone climbed the Israeli embassy and took down the flag.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4111826,00.html

The people are against Israel but the military dictatorship isn't because they are funded by the US.

Egypt has yet to have an independent government and the nation is still under the control of the military, so I don't know where you got the idea there is a new government in control of Egypt.


:

You've rightfully shown why Pakistan is in this mess.

How?

Now coming to your point on Jerusalem and Al Aqsa. You seem to not read the posts you quote. Please read the messages completely before you quote them. He said you cant make foreign policy on ifs and buts and again you discussed the possibility of if and but. Obviously if Israel does that than whole muslim world will stand against them.

It's not an if or but, it's a reality people like you need to wake up to. Israel claims to be a Jewish state and every citizen is looking forward to the day the temple is built again. So what's the point of recognising Israel when you admit the Muslim world will be in uproar?

Zionism according to you are enemies of muslims but why only Pakistan echoes that point?

What does this mean? Muslim all around the world echo this point.

I've said this time and again and nobody is coming up with any substantial facts. Tell me why the whole arab land cant stand up against Israel and break all their ties since they're the most oppressing regime (there goes the morality point which is all you guys are talking about)???

I assume you mean those in power? They don't have the military power and even if they did they are ruled by puppet dicatators who work for the US. US is obviously the biggest supporter of the Zionist entity.

Why its only Pakistan who has to stand up? You've stood up for last 60 years, what it has given you?

Pakistan hasn't stood up to Israel, they just don't recognise the entity. Understand the crucial difference.

Yet when Pakistan is in trouble no arab countries stood up with Pakistan. OBL was arab why arabs cant take responsibility of him and his team? When 9/11 wasn't done by Pakistanis than why Pakistan suffered from the whole muslim backlash thing because you've portrayed yourself as the champion of Islam.

Again Arab nations are ruled by puppet dictatorships. Why would they stand up for Pakistan when they are mere puppets?

Pakistan is not the only nation to face backlash of the War of terror. Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria and others have all been bombed or had covert operations against them.

With respect you need to bring some strong arguments to the table as to why Pakistan should recognise a terrorist, aparheid state whose protection has caused countless deaths of Muslims for the last 60 years and still continues.

Pakistan is a great nation because it's founders recognised the threat of Zionism to the Muslim world. They have been proven to be right.

 

[Looney]

If you cannot beat them , join them .

If Muslims were able to beat Israelis , Palestinian issue would have been solved long back but obviously , that is not the case .

 

[KingKhanWC]

If you cannot beat them , join them .

If Muslims were able to beat Israelis , Palestinian issue would have been solved long back but obviously , that is not the case .

If you can't beat a rapist who is raping you then it doesn't mean you join him and start raping others.

The war/conflict is on-going and will continue until the balance of power changes and Israel as an entity no longer exists. Israel still has a few years to go before it breaks the record of the previous crusader outupost which lasted longer but eventually was sent packing back to Europe. The same will happen again since the demographics are against the Zionist state. They really should have made their state in Europe or South America which they considered initially.

 

[Looney]

Well , you tell me then how the current stance of Pakistan has helped Pakistan .

Anyway , Pakistan would be better off worrying about problems of its own . The lack of development , education , health is really hurting us , more than anything else . That is something we all can agree on .

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well , you tell me then how the current stance of Pakistan has helped Pakistan .

We are not slaves of Zionism. Pakistan has moral standing in the world by not recognising an apartheid, terrorist, occuyping entity.

Should Mulsims in the past have recognised the previous crusader outposts?

Anyway , Pakistan would be better off worrying about problems of its own . The lack of development , education , health is really hurting us , more than anything else . That is something we all can agree on .

Agree and by not recognising Israel it doesn't stop Pakistan from pursuing these.

 

[shakil]

Another attempt by busharaf to garner the attention of his zeonist masters for support in elections

 

[Garuda]

Why not ?

In this age its foolish to nurture enemity. It's only going to increase one's loss.

Having issues with one is different than having an enemy for life.

I say "Dushman mat paalo".

 

[akheR]

Well, History can be ironic from times to times: that's an article posted today (great timing) on Express Tribune, and which responds eloquently to the individuals here who were talking of how 'brotherly' our relations are with the oil-mighty Arab nations

‘Brotherly’ countries turn down Pakistan’s request

ISLAMABAD: All rhetoric of brotherhood notwithstanding, two ‘friendly’ Arab countries have refused to supply oil to Pakistan on long-term credit.

Plagued by circular debt, and faced with high international oil prices, Pakistan had requested Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to extend their credit term for oil payments.

During his two-day visit in August last year, Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani had requested Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz to either restore ‘free oil facility’ or extend the credit term for oil payment from the existing 30 days to one-year.

Saudi Arabia had granted Pakistan a ‘free oil facility’ in 1998, in the aftermath of the nuclear tests and subsequent economic sanctions from the United States and Europe.

“Saudi Arabia has turned down Pakistan’s request on grounds that since it exports oil to other countries, they may demand similar treatment,” said sources, quoting Saudi officials.

Saudi authorities also said that oil export is a commercial business for them and they would offer Pakistan the same terms that are offered to other countries, sources added.

Pakistan had also requested Kuwait to extend its credit terms for oil payments to six months, from the current two-month deferral period.

A formal request in this regard was made during President Asif Ali Zardari’s visit to Kuwait on May 7, 2011. At that time, Kuwait said it would discuss the matter with concerned authorities and let Pakistan know later.

Kuwait is the only country that supplies oil to Pakistan on a two-month deferred payment plan, an arrangement secured during the 2008 financial crisis. Other Middle Eastern countries, including Saudi Arabia, export oil on 30-day credit term.

When contacted, however, Petroleum Minister Dr Asim Hussain said he had no knowledge of such requests.

Earlier, Iran had been supplying 45,000 barrels of crude oil to Pakistan on a three-month deferred payment plan until January 2011. UN-imposed sanctions, however, brought a halt to these due to difficulties in opening Letter of Credits from global banks for oil imports from Iran.

Since then, Iranian oil is largely smuggled to Pakistan. Officials say people of Baluchistan meet most of their requirements with smuggled oil.

Cash crunch at PSO

With almost Rs200 billion due to pay local and international fuel suppliers as of January 6, 2012, the largest public sector oil marketing company, Pakistan State Oil (PSO), is in dire straits.

Of that amount, PSO owes almost Rs114 billion to international fuel suppliers, including Kuwait Petroleum Corporation (KPC). “PSO is facing an emergency-like situation and has no money to pay for oil supplies,” sources said.

“The situation has been aggravated due to nonpayment of dues by power sector and some other clients; PSO’s receivables have piled up to Rs185.2 billion,” sources added.

The company is mainly dependent on oil imports since oil refineries in the country are operating at 70% capacity due to circular debt, sources added.

And that's just logical, point being: there's no concept of friendship - even so brotherhood - in intl. politics. Never in business, and the Saudis put it clearly.

 

[lahori]

Lahori bhai you will find it difficult to argue with facts. I may not have this great insight into Pakistani life that you seem to magically have but atleast I have a memory span which lasts more than a few months. (btw spent 6 weeks there last yr and will be going again for four weeks for my wedding soon, hopefully will be able to catch up on your incredible jnsight jnto Pakistani life from abroad).

Anyway your great leader is backtrackinv on his israel comments so no point discussing this.

Wazeeri sahab, I actually went twice in 2011 alone (March and Dec), and altogether since 1998 I have been to Pakistan a total of 11 times . The past 5 times I went were after Musharraf's rule (end of 2007, end of 2008, end of 2009 and then twice in 2011), were probably the most chaotic and lowest points for the average person. I have had casual conversations with several shopkeepers, drivers, servants, not so well-to-do friends, well-to-do friends, relatives etc. you name it, and everyone unanimously agree that Musharraf's times were the best. The fact that Pakistan now has such skyrocketing food prices (Rs110 for dozen eggs, even more expensive than US to my surprise), something's not right.

I myself took the biggest hit as an expat who invested in frickin' DHA property in Lahore, thanks to Rupee devaluation from Rs 61 to Rs91, my losses are several lac rupees, so you know which side I am on

 

[Red Devil]

We need Mushy back in power

I would take this over that mushy

 

[SIMBA]

I cant believe some posters believe that we should have relations with: Israel and should recognise them!

Are you guys mad? Our great founding leader was against the creation of: Israel so who are we to go against him?

Plus, how can we recognise an illegal state that massacres Palestinians?

Mossad is also responsible for the chaos in: Pakistan so why should be recognise Israel when Israel is trying to harm us. I am sure in the:80s Israel attempted to attack our nuclear!

God forbid we recognise israel - we will not benefit as the majority of the world will hate us!

 

[Savak]

Lets realistically assess things, what is the worst that could happen by recognizing Israel?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Lets realistically assess things, what is the worst that could happen by recognizing Israel?

I would guess it depends on how it would impact relations with other key allies. Does Pakistan have any key ties with Gulf nations whose noses would be put out of joint? Would that have consequences? Everything needs to be weighed in consideration.

 

[LegCutter]

I do feel relationships with Israel might have some benefit, but they are quite the slippery folk arent they. Not sure if we'll be able to enjoy long-term relationship without having hiccups on the way.

I guess I just have a neutral view on this; but realististically speaking, any effort at mending relations with Israel wont garner much support from the masses of either country.

 

[James]

Pakistan has contributed to the Palestinian cause, in some way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

We crushed the Palestinian rebellion (led by Yasser Arafat) v. King Hussein of Jordan... and, that's the irony, one of the leader of the regiments killing Palestinians was the then-brigadier (why didn't he remained so) Zia-ul-Haq... yes, Mard-e-Haq or Apostle-e-Shariat killed Palestinians.



Also, ask the Arabs if they know where Kashmir is; the point being that the concept of Islamic brotherhood is a big fluke, that the Muslim world is like an horde of wolves waiting to eat its neighbour. That said, Israel remains an anti-democratic force in its essence, but as you pointed out, every nations looks for its own interests - we should do the same, because despite Arabs wishing us to be a ... superpower, we just can't play the role of the Ummah's fighting Messiah.

Just to say, really enjoy reading your posts, they often teach me something new about history (culture and literature meanwhile are my specialities) and I get the impression you provide a much more honest and clued-up perspective than most.

 

[GenericBrand]

The general response against relations with Israel seem to be 'we are taking it from behind, but hey at least we are the nice guys'.

Most people are against the Israelis behavior towards the Palestinians but at the same time would believe the US is also out to get the Muslims or Pakistan, but they don't have a problem recognizing the US or maintaining relations with them. But it doesn't matter since the US gives us aid money so its all good.

 

[shakil]

But first they have to reduce antisemitism and increase the image of non-Muslims. In other words, get the saudi-funded madrassas under govt. supervision

 

[shakil]

Lets realistically assess things, what is the worst that could happen by recognizing Israel?

The worst that happened when Benazir was murdered - Frantic car racing with the loser getting his car burned (happened to me)

 

[the Great Khan]

so lets s ay we sign a peace treaty with them, and then they demolish the al qsa mosque..then what?

 

[Savak]

My point is if Pak recognizes Israel of its own accord, why would the Arabs care really? When have the Arabs supported us on Kashmir and against India in general? In fact some of them have even stronger, better relations with India than Pakistan?

Havent the Arabs forgiven Egypt and Jordan and Turkey for recognizing Israel? What i am more concerned about is the collaboration between Israel and India, this is something Pakistan must counter, i believe engagement is more beneficial than just ignoring. Ofcourse we shouldn't change our stance on the Palestine issue.

Israel has a special plan to attack our nuclear reactor in Kahuta's in the 1980's with the help of India but the PAF got wind of these plans way in advance much to the surprise of the Israeli airforce, commandos. As a result the Pakistani goverment sent a message to Tel Aviv that it was not Iraq and that should Israel attempt or even consider such a folly then they should say goodbye to their Nuclear reactor in Dimona. The Pak govt also sent a message to India that any collaboration with Israel on attacking Pakistan's nuclear facilities will invite a similar response from Pakistan on India's Nuclear facilities. The Indians apparently got cold feet, refused to give Israeli commando's, jets landing rights and the plan was aborted.

Israel has high regard for the Pakistan army, air force and recognize they are no roll overs. They have seen the impact the training by Pakistani army to Arab armies have done.

 

[shaykh1985]

Everyone asking if the Arabs would be offended by relations with Israel...

Are The Gulf even opposed to Israel...Israel calls Saudi Arabia a guarantor of stability in the Middle East and has no problem with the Gulf States whatsoever...

The Times even stated that Saudi would allow an Israeli airstrike against Iran to go through their airspace...

Its more offensive to the Gulf to have relations with Iran than it is with Israel...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

so lets s ay we sign a peace treaty with them, and then they demolish the al qsa mosque..then what?

Why would that be Pakistan's problem given that Israel is surrounded by Arab countries and demolishing Al Aqsa mosque should be their issue more than Pakistan's?

 

[Sjaloha]

Pakistan should start diplomatic terms with Israel. There is absolutely no justificaiton for Pakistan to not recognizing Israel. Especially when countries like Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, Oman are recognizing Israel, then why on the earth Pakistan isnt doing it? If the issue amongts the Pakistan's politicians and military establishment is the occupation then I think many other countries have tried, currently and in the past, occupy other countries and Pakistan still enjoy good terms with them.

 

[LegCutter]

The people just arent going to support it man. After India, Israel is probably the least liked country in Pakistan; even moreso than America.

Lol even my Pakistani passport says 'I will not travel to Israel with this passport', something like that.

 

[Sjaloha]

The people just arent going to support it man. After India, Israel is probably the least liked country in Pakistan; even moreso than America.

Lol even my Pakistani passport says 'I will not travel to Israel with this passport', something like that.

I agree what is the perception of Israel in Pakistan and the reality about our passport stating that.

Again, we have created such a perception about Israel in Pakistan. The countries who are actually threatened by Israel are the ones who are talking and have diplomatic terms but countries like Pakistan and Iran have simply nothing in this matter. Forget Iran, I do not know why Pakistan is not establishing the relations with Israel, is beyond my understanding. Only time Pakistan can play any role or influence on the Palestine matter is when it will have diplomatic terms with Israel.

 

[speed]

Someone should tell this idiot musharraf that it is against the Quran to make alliances with jews and christians who themselves are allies of eachother, obviously he had no knowledge of that when he became an ally on the wot.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why would that be Pakistan's problem given that Israel is surrounded by Arab countries and demolishing Al Aqsa mosque should be their issue more than Pakistan's?

The Al-Aqsa mosque isn't an Arab site. All Muslims around the world hold the same importance because God himself has told his creation the value of this place. The Prophet(pbuh) ascended to heaven from there.

Zionists have always planned to destroy this to build their temple, this isn't any secret. lol

Therefore it's pointless having good relations knowing full well they can't last. Of course this is ignoring the behaviour of the terrorist state which should be enough reason but some people don't care if others are being oppressed as long as it's not their family.

 

[mahout]

Someone should tell this idiot musharraf that it is against the Quran to make alliances with jews and christians who themselves are allies of eachother, obviously he had no knowledge of that when he became an ally on the wot.

jewophobia & christianophobia.....hello....anyone?

 

[speed]

jewophobia & christianophobia.....hello....anyone?

When has a jewish-christian alliance ever benefitted muslims?

To be honest only in the last 100 years or so for the first time we have seen a judeo-Christian alliance, can you believe it the same people who boasted of killing Jesus(pbuh) are allies of the Christians.

 

[justarslan]

If it helps Pakistan become a stronger country then i do not mind it .

This.

 

[justarslan]

Someone should tell this idiot musharraf that it is against the Quran to make alliances with jews and christians who themselves are allies of eachother, obviously he had no knowledge of that when he became an ally on the wot.

Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) made alliances with both Jews and Christians of Arabia. Was he going against Holy Quran?

 

[speed]

Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) made alliances with both Jews and Christians of Arabia. Was he going against Holy Quran?

Were the jews and christians allies of eachother?

 

[chacha kashmiri]

he obviously wasn't in the loop during the soviet invasion or chose to leave it out his argument, israeli weapons were supplied through the intermediatry pakistan to mujahids incl palestinians like sheikh azzam to fight communism

Pakistan would most probably rather have deals with iran, uae and saudi then israel, esp as israel is in bed with india

 

[pal]

Pakistan would most probably rather have deals with iran, uae and saudi then israel, esp as israel is in bed with india

The contentious nature of Pakistan's relationship with Israel grants India independence in its foreign policy towards Israel. India is free to pursue economic and strategic initiatives, while at the same time, adhere to its historical support for Palestine and its close alliances with nations in the Middle-East, such as Iran. India knows that Israel can't or won't turn to Pakistan even if India opposes Israel on important issues.

That's why India was able condemn Israel's war in Lebanon in 2006. It's why India voted in the UN last year to give Palestine the status of an observer state. It's why India continues to trade in crude oil with Iran with minimal cuts, even as Israel and the US heap sanctions upon sanctions on trade with Iran and try to force nations to adhere to those sanctions. Israeli officials can complain, but they have little hard leverage, considering they can't play India against its biggest rival.

 

[GenericBrand]

Were the jews and christians allies of eachother?

Read a history book...oh wait the answer is in the next post

 

[Third Umpire]

Can they be any worse than our relations with Saudi Arabia, for example, who has systematically radicalized our society by funding thousands of madrassahs all over Pakistan that teach a perverted version of Islam to our youth?

 

[Third Umpire]

I am personally undecided on whether Pakistan should or shouldn't have diplomatic ties with Israel. Though it is fairly certain that Pakistan does have backdoor ties with Israel (in fact there was a huge furor about 5 years back at some world conference where the delegates of Pakistan and Israel were seen shaking hands and talking away from the public eye.

It's no wonder that Israel rarely, if ever, references Pakistan in its Islamophobic hate mongering. Shouldn't they be more vocal about the country that gave nuclear technology to Iran? And Libya?

 

[justarslan]

Were the jews and christians allies of eachother?

Technically, Jews and Christians were allies with each other because all four groups Muslims, Jews, Christians and Pagans of Medina agreed Constitution of Medina.

 

[Cracket]

Pakistan is what I'm hoping is able to turn India away from pro-Israel butkissing on everything.

 

[speed]

Technically, Jews and Christians were allies with each other because all four groups Muslims, Jews, Christians and Pagans of Medina agreed Constitution of Medina.

No were the jews and chrisitans allies before this alliance was made?

 

[LegCutter]

No were the jews and chrisitans allies before this alliance was made?

This issue is a political one and not a religious one. And even on the religious note, you are incorrect as Holy Prophet has been known to have treaties with Pagans and Jews. It's all about the necessity at the time.

But getting back on the main topic, let's try to focus on what harm it's going to do if we make an alliance with Israel. The worst that could happen is, it will hurt our relations with Iran and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia might get over it, but Iran might be a problem, especially at the moment when it's being run by far-right Ahmedinejad.

 

[speed]

This issue is a political one and not a religious one. And even on the religious note, you are incorrect as Holy Prophet has been known to have treaties with Pagans and Jews. It's all about the necessity at the time.

But getting back on the main topic, let's try to focus on what harm it's going to do if we make an alliance with Israel. The worst that could happen is, it will hurt our relations with Iran and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia might get over it, but Iran might be a problem, especially at the moment when it's being run by far-right Ahmedinejad.

There's nothing wrong with having treaties with chrisitans or jews, but when they are allies of each other it is prohibited.

 

[Nitin Tomer]

There's nothing wrong with having treaties with chrisitans or jews, but when they are allies of each other it is prohibited.

In that case, shouldn't Pakistan not have relations with both Christians and Jews? Then why butt-kissing of US is allowed but having relations with Israel is not?

 

[speed]

In that case, shouldn't Pakistan not have relations with both Christians and Jews? Then why butt-kissing of US is allowed but having relations with Israel is not?

I already talked about that see above posts, it is not allowed but musharraf obviously does not care or has no knowledge of that verse.

 

[shan]

I already talked about that see above posts, it is not allowed but musharraf obviously does not care or has no knowledge of that verse.

These scientists are also doing haram

A multi-national team led by USC with researchers hailing from the U.S., China, Pakistan and Israel has developed a system of transmitting data using twisted beams of light at ultra-high speeds – up to 2.56 terabits per second.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2012-06-scientists.html#jCp

 

[speed]

These scientists are also doing haram

A multi-national team led by USC with researchers hailing from the U.S., China, Pakistan and Israel has developed a system of transmitting data using twisted beams of light at ultra-high speeds – up to 2.56 terabits per second.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2012-06-scientists.html#jCp

Great way of twisting things, verse is for protection, like how suadi have an alliance with usa for protection of their country.

[O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)

The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Yeap let's have relations with someone that are on record for wanting to bomb us for having nukes and would love nothing more for our disarmament. There is no reason to go down this route, not to mention the public will be up in arms and we gain nothing from it. After all India buys more weaponry from Israel than anyone else.

 

[Zarrar]

Not a surprise coming from the likes of Mush...one mass killer of muslims vouching for another...

 

[AlphaFighter]

Musharraf made good points on Israel especially the part "Israel is a reality now". I personally think there should be a hard rational and logical debate on this.

 

[Varun]

Palestine is what you can consider a useless ally. Given the choice and given the opportunity to think with a clear head, Israel is the way to go.

Palestine need to prove that they are capable of any economic output of value before a neutral country can be friends with them. Otherwise it's a one-way relationship which is frankly, pointless.

 

[Shah]

If Pakistan can have diplomatic relations with India, a sworn enemy, then why not have relations with Israel? Israelis are the followers of Prophet Musa/Moses who is Allah's prophet. Are the mullahs who do not want to recognize Israel saying that they do not believe in Him?

Israel and Pakistan have so much in common. Both were created mainly based on religion. Both have enemies and neighbours who are much bigger. Muslims can eat kosher food. A muslim man is allowed to marry a jewish lady.

Musharraf is absolutely correct, recognizing Israel can only help Pakistan in terms of getting on the right side of the jewish lobby, media and also getting access to Israeli technology. Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, Palestine, Qatar, Oman, Maldives, Bosnia, Morocco, Nigeria, and the eight Muslim countries in the former Communist Bloc and other muslim countries have recognized Israel, why not Pakistan?

Interestingly, in 2005 Pakistan accepted Israeli aid following a devastating earthquake.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Point where I agree with musharraf is that isreal is a reality and it's not going any where.

My mom and dad have a final wish to go to Jerusalem. I am sure so many Pakistanis and Muslims do as well.

Why not adapt a different approach towards the isreal Palestine issue by recognizing isreal?

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Saeed]

Mush has gone crazy, first he got Pakistanis killed by foreign armies and now he wants relations with known terrorists states like Israel.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Point where I agree with musharraf is that isreal is a reality and it's not going any where.

My mom and dad have a final wish to go to Jerusalem. I am sure so many Pakistanis and Muslims do as well.

Why not adapt a different approach towards the isreal Palestine issue by recognizing isreal?

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

Would you recognise the Taliban if they retook Afghanistan or would it be the 'letting terrorists win'


It's all fine and dandy saying we are fighting against terrorism and people that shoot dead school children and then cowing in front of Israel because they have military might

 

[sshakir411]

Palestine is what you can consider a useless ally. Given the choice and given the opportunity to think with a clear head, Israel is the way to go.

Palestine need to prove that they are capable of any economic output of value before a neutral country can be friends with them. Otherwise it's a one-way relationship which is frankly, pointless.

Palestinians are unable to do anything since they live under occupation. Anything that comes in and goes out goes through IDF. They determine the fate. You should watch this documentary called 'Promises'. Great movie made by an American Jew. Should be available on YouTube...but is old now.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I don't see what's the problem in Pakistan allying with Israel, the whole Palestine Issue has nothing to do with people of the sub continent. Its all good to talk about a supposed Ummah but lets be realistic; these Arabs just flat out look down on ppl from the sub continental like insects and also if Pakistan can close their eyes on the Myanmar muslims being killed by China (so much for the Ummah lol ) we know Pakistan can definitely ally with Israel .