Removal of Article 370 has not changed anything from a Pakistani perspective

[Slog]

I don’t understand why people see it as an issue or a setback.

Pakistan saw indian Kashmir as Indian occupied Kashmir before and they do same now.

If anything this may fuel the resistance and make it worse.

So can someone explain

 

[Lego20]

Phew. Tx. Was unnecessarily enranged.

 

[msaaim89]

Phew. Tx. Was unnecessarily enranged.

The usual trick is to count to 10.

 

[JaDed]

The usual trick is to count to 10.

Or wait 24 hrs and let everyone finish having a meltdown.

 

[AdamM97]

Further suppression of Kashmiris -> Possibility of a terror attack on Indian security forces -> India blames Pakistan -> India does a Balakot -> Pakistan responds -> A war breaks out between two nuclear armed nations.

But yes, this helps strengthen the Pakistani narrative on Kashmir and the two nation theory.

 

[Mamoon]

It has put a dampener in our dhol baja over Trump’s statement, who has clearly done a number on our naive PM.

 

[rhony]

I don’t understand why people see it as an issue or a setback.

Pakistan saw indian Kashmir as Indian occupied Kashmir before and they do same now.

If anything this may fuel the resistance and make it worse.

So can someone explain

There won't be any future negotiations between India and Pakistan on this as this will now be an "internal" matter for India. There could be demographic changes because any Indian can now settle in Kashmir. So effectively, the plebiscite or Azadi talk are dead and Kashmir's out of Pak's hands forever.

 

[Mamoon]

Two Nation Theory was exposed in East Pakistan.

 

[Slog]

There won't be any future negotiations between I dia and Pakistan on this as this will now be an "internal" matter for India. There could be demographic changes because any Indian can now settle in Kashmir. So effectively, the plebiscite or Azadi talk are dead and Kashmir's out of Pak's hands forever.

Pakistan was never getting kashmir anyway let’s be realistic like india is never getting AJK or Aksai Chin.

However of these three territories only one will see more Pulwamas

 

[Lego20]

Further suppression of Kashmiris -> Possibility of a terror attack on Indian security forces -> India blames Pakistan -> India does a Balakot -> Pakistan responds -> A war breaks out between two nuclear armed nations.

But yes, this helps strengthen the Pakistani narrative on Kashmir and the two nation theory.

So you are saying Pakistan will now instigate terror attack as response? Will this affect FATF?

 

[JaDed]

Further suppression of Kashmiris -> Possibility of a terror attack on Indian security forces -> India blames Pakistan -> India does a Balakot -> Pakistan responds -> A war breaks out between two nuclear armed nations.

But yes, this helps strengthen the Pakistani narrative on Kashmir and the two nation theory.

If anything it opposes the two nation theory imo, if the Muslims were almost in equal number, assuming South Indian Hindus don’t really care then equal majority of both would had played to be equal in everything, just my opinion.

 

[AdamM97]

Two Nation Theory was exposed in East Pakistan.

Not really. All 1971 proved was that Pakistan were complete racists who felt superior to the 'short and dark' Bengalis.

The Two Nation Theory was more about Hindus and Muslims living in one country. What West Pakistan did in East Pakistan had nothing to do with Hinduism or Islam and more to do with ethnicity and racism.

 

[Lego20]

So you are saying Pakistan will now instigate terror attack as response? Will this affect FATF?

Too many priorities:
- dodging fatf
- making afganistan talib again
- getting kashmir from india
- paying world bank loans.
- ensure indus water supply.
- getting cricket back in Pakistan

 

[Slog]

Two Nation Theory was exposed in East Pakistan.

Clearly you didn’t understand it then if you think it was exposed

It was Two nations not two countries theory.

If it was exposed Bangladesh would have amalgamated back into India.

 

[AdamM97]

So you are saying Pakistan will now instigate terror attack as response? Will this affect FATF?

No, i'm saying that further suppression of Kashmiris will lead to more radicalization which will lead to attacks on Indian security forces. Although Pakistan has added fuel to the fire, most Kashmiris get radicalized because of India's 'muscular' approach to Kashmir.

 

[JaDed]

Clearly you didn’t understand it then if you think it was exposed

It was Two nations not two countries theory.

If it was exposed Bangladesh would have amalgamated back into India.

Yes so there is no two nation theory, the division should had been on region and not religion.
Now its everyone picking what they can.

 

[Mamoon]

Not really. All 1971 proved was that Pakistan were complete racists who felt superior to the 'short and dark' Bengalis.

The Two Nation Theory was more about Hindus and Muslims living in one country. What West Pakistan did in East Pakistan had nothing to do with Hinduism or Islam and more to do with ethnicity and racism.

East Pakistan exposed the Two Nation Theory because it proved that religion is not a strong enough unifying force that would overcome cultural and social differences.

Bengalis were short, dark and spoke a language that we considered inferior and alien. Their status as Muslims was not enough for us to consider them as our equals.

 

[Mamoon]

^ [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

 

[Slog]

East Pakistan exposed the Two Nation Theory because it proved that religion is not a strong enough unifying force that would overcome cultural and social differences.

Bengalis were short, dark and spoke a language that we considered inferior and alien. Their status as Muslims was not enough for us to consider them as our equals.

Two nation theory was that Muslims and Hindus are separate people and will live in different states. Bengali muslims still preferred that

 

[JaDed]

East Pakistan exposed the Two Nation Theory because it proved that religion is not a strong enough unifying force that would overcome cultural and social differences.

Bengalis were short, dark and spoke a language that we considered inferior and alien. Their status as Muslims was not enough for us to consider them as our equals.

Pakistanis considered Bengali language to be inferior? Tagore was first non European to win Nobel prize in literature much before partition and he wrote in Bengali

 

[AdamM97]

East Pakistan exposed the Two Nation Theory because it proved that religion is not a strong enough unifying force that would overcome cultural and social differences.

Bengalis were short, dark and spoke a language that we considered inferior and alien. Their status as Muslims was not enough for us to consider them as our equals.

I disagree, i think religion is a strong enough unifying force. The problem is that West Pakistan never made the Bengalis feel as Pakistani as them. Had we prioritized religion over ethnicity, we would still be a unified nation.

 

[AdamM97]

I disagree, i think religion is a strong enough unifying force. The problem is that West Pakistan never made the Bengalis feel as Pakistani as them. Had we prioritized religion over ethnicity, we would still be a unified nation.

I have to add one more thing:

Pakistan tried to centralize it's powers in Karachi and give the provinces less autonomy which made the Bengalis angrier. This hardly has anything to do with religion and more to do with power and dominance.

In fact, India is also centralizing powers in New Delhi and giving provinces less autonomy, which can create ethnic tensions, which is also another reason why scrapping article 370 might actually benefit Pakistan.

 

[Mamoon]

Two nation theory was that Muslims and Hindus are separate people and will live in different states. Bengali muslims still preferred that

In a nutshell, the Two Nation Theory's foundation was that Muslims and Hindus are two distinct nations and as a result, they cannot be united as one country. It was an idealistic concept that failed to take into account that Muslims cannot live peacefully with Muslims either as long as there cultural, social etc. differences. That is why West Pakistan discriminated against East Pakistan and Islam did not prove to be a strong unifying that could have overcome the difference in culture and language.

 

[Mamoon]

I disagree, i think religion is a strong enough unifying force. The problem is that West Pakistan never made the Bengalis feel as Pakistani as them. Had we prioritized religion over ethnicity, we would still be a unified nation.

But the problem is that it cannot be easily achieved. No matter how much we insist that our religion comes before our ethnicity, in practical terms, it doesn't work that way. That is why the Two Nation Theory was flawed - it was too idealistic and build on the premise that Islam alone would be able to unite and bind the Muslims of the subcontinent. Luckily none of the major proponents of the theory (Sir Syed, Jinnah, Iqbal) were alive to witness the discrimination of East Pakistan and the impracticality of their theory.

 

[pillionrider]

Or wait 24 hrs and let everyone finish having a meltdown.

From anger to thread-bumping to faux indifference. The happenings of the last 48 hours don't change anything for Pakistan. Most certainly

Seriously though, most of the animosity among current-gen Indians and Pakistanis seems to be over J&K, more specifically Kashmir. Maybe it's time for everyone to take some breathing time and let the Indians deal with the Kashmiris. The world is watching. And Modi is too conscious of his global image to just walk in there and start butchering everyone.

 

[JaDed]

From anger to thread-bumping to faux indifference. The happenings of the last 48 hours don't change anything for Pakistan. Most certainly

Seriously though, most of the animosity among current-gen Indians and Pakistanis seems to be over J&K, more specifically Kashmir. Maybe it's time for everyone to take some breathing time and let the Indians deal with the Kashmiris. The world is watching. And Modi is too conscious of his global image to just walk in there and start butchering everyone.

Yeah , things should go back to normal hopefully in a week.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In a nutshell, the Two Nation Theory's foundation was that Muslims and Hindus are two distinct nations and as a result, they cannot be united as one country. It was an idealistic concept that failed to take into account that Muslims cannot live peacefully with Muslims either as long as there cultural, social etc. differences. That is why West Pakistan discriminated against East Pakistan and Islam did not prove to be a strong unifying that could have overcome the difference in culture and language.

So are you saying that Bangladeshis were also incapable of living with non-Muslims, hence they refused to rejoin India, and that is why the Two Nation theory was flawed? In effect the Two Nation theory should have been a Three Nation one to accommodate Bangladeshi religious bigotry?

 

[AdamM97]

But the problem is that it cannot be easily achieved. No matter how much we insist that our religion comes before our ethnicity, in practical terms, it doesn't work that way. That is why the Two Nation Theory was flawed - it was too idealistic and build on the premise that Islam alone would be able to unite and bind the Muslims of the subcontinent. Luckily none of the major proponents of the theory (Sir Syed, Jinnah, Iqbal) were alive to witness the discrimination of East Pakistan and the impracticality of their theory.

Yes, ethnicity comes before religion, there's no dispute over that.

My point is that ethnic tensions between West and East Pakistan would've never occured had we considered them as our fellow brethrens which is what the Two Nation Theory was all about. It's never a good idea to become authoritarian in an ethnically diverse country, which is the mistake Pakistan made when it tried to centralize it's powers in West Pakistan and give the East Pakistan less autonomy and give the Bengalis less say in Pakistani politics.

I disagree that the Two Nation Theory is too idealistic, it was based on historical observations on that Muslims and Hindus see themselves as part of two different communities. Why is it that Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs see themselves as part of two different communities despite the cultural and linguistic similarities?

 

[JaDed]

Yes, ethnicity comes before religion, there's no dispute over that.

My point is that ethnic tensions between West and East Pakistan would've never occured had we considered them as our fellow brethrens which is what the Two Nation Theory was all about. It's never a good idea to become authoritarian in an ethnically diverse country, which is the mistake Pakistan made when it tried to centralize it's powers in West Pakistan and give the East Pakistan less autonomy and give the Bengalis less say in Pakistani politics.

I disagree that the Two Nation Theory is too idealistic, it was based on historical observations on that Muslims and Hindus see themselves as part of two different communities. Why is it that Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs see themselves as part of two different communities despite the cultural and linguistic similarities?

Punjabis saw themselves as one community before the other part decided to leave the cause.
Even now Punjabis get along well across the world.

But having said that its done we have three nations end of it get along with it.

 

[AdamM97]

Punjabis saw themselves as one community before the other part decided to leave the cause.
Even now Punjabis get along well across the world.

But having said that its done we have three nations end of it get along with it.

My grandparents still tell me how their parents didn't allow them to eat food cooked by a Sikh or a Hindu, nor did Sikhs and Hindus allow their children to eat food prepared by a Muslim. Not only that, they didn't even drink water from the same taps, that's how religiously polarized 20th century Punjab was. It's unfortunate though.

Today, a lot of Punjabis seem to get along very well, especially abroad. That's good.

 

[JaDed]

My grandparents still tell me how their parents didn't allow them to eat food cooked by a Sikh or a Hindu, nor did Sikhs and Hindus allow their children to eat food prepared by a Muslim. Not only that, they didn't even drink water from the same taps, that's how religiously polarized 20th century Punjab was. It's unfortunate though.

Today, a lot of Punjabis seem to get along very well, especially abroad. That's good.

They probably didn’t intermarry either, but they used to visit each others homes ,take part in functions and enjoyed same culture.

The issue was kitchen and yes, that did occur.