Respectfully, Pakistan must understand the new realities of hosting tours

[Buffet]

fair enough

All I am asking for is credible proof that it is a fact. I am not arguing with you here. I just ask for you to back this claim with proof that should put an end to speculation.

The person, who helped to find Osama Bin Laden, was put in jail by Pakistan for 30+ years.

 

[Rana]

The person, who helped to find Osama Bin Laden, was put in jail by Pakistan for 30+ years.

Ok so that’s proof that the CIA Kept ISI in the dark about their plan to capture OBL?

USA bombed Afghanistan into the the Mesozoic time period just for harbouring Al-Qaida

Why did they not do the same to Pakistan?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Some decent points by Junaids. However, it must be noted that the West is responsible for a lot of this as well and they are unable to trust the supposed Frankensteins monster they themselves created.

Pakistan's situation is extremely bleak. They are paying the price for being in bed with the Yanks for 50 + years and now they have placed all their bets on China. Not sure how long the repercussions of that will be felt.

Unfortunately, even the rest of the Ummah doesnt seem to give a toss nor can they do anything about it even if they did. Cricket is only a tiny part of what can and may happen .

 

[Technics 1210]

The new reality is this, pick up a phone, call in a hoax threat, and sit back.

 

[Titan24]

4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges. .

Firstly Srilankan tour in 2009 was not covered by state level security.

Do you remember a guy name JF Kennedy? Guy was a sitting president and was assassinated while he was the president . So not sure about this point of yours as it can be nullified by multiple instances over the years in numerous countries. Yes if you want to talk about hypocrisy and how one country is judged in comparison to other than yes we can agree.

You want me to quote number of instances happened in the countries part of 5 eyes alliance over the years? US was not even able to save their sitting president as mentioned, you want me to talk about bombs in Eng, more people dying in US through shootings then through terrorism in some other countries, or killings in NZ, most wanted drug lords, mafias lived and living in some these countries and many more such things and so on.

We can carry the debate to countless pages but, the thing is it all comes down to image and overall double standards of the world. Everyone including countries become hypocrites after the point they cant afford to not be one.

 

[Yk313]

I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

This is not satire…?

 

[Yk313]

Some decent points by Junaids. However, it must be noted that the West is responsible for a lot of this as well and they are unable to trust the supposed Frankensteins monster they themselves created.

Pakistan's situation is extremely bleak. They are paying the price for being in bed with the Yanks for 50 + years and now they have placed all their bets on China. Not sure how long the repercussions of that will be felt.

Unfortunately, even the rest of the Ummah doesnt seem to give a toss nor can they do anything about it even if they did. Cricket is only a tiny part of what can and may happen .

I actually thought the OP was satirical but looking at the responses on this thread I realise otherwise.

There isn’t too much more to it than what you’ve tabled. The truth of life is that a smaller and insignificant country risks facing repercussions for same / similar antics that larger, more powerful and pedigreed countries can get away with. So far so good. Where people often lose the plot from this point forth is to use this status quo to justify PAK (or any other country’s) wrongdoing instead of lobbying for course correction, which should be the logical course of action. Instead of expecting to get away with the same warmongering, arming proxies and creating unsafe spaces and expecting to not be penalised because other countries do it too, the idea should be to not engage in any such activities.

Again I thought the OP was being satirical with the purpose of illustrating how almost all of the points could apply to USA, IND, EUR etc. by swapping names, instances / context and events.

 

[Buffet]

I actually thought the OP was satirical but looking at the responses on this thread I realise otherwise.

There isn’t too much more to it than what you’ve tabled. The truth of life is that a smaller and insignificant country risks facing repercussions for same / similar antics that larger, more powerful and pedigreed countries can get away with. So far so good. Where people often lose the plot from this point forth is to use this status quo to justify PAK (or any other country’s) wrongdoing instead of lobbying for course correction, which should be the logical course of action. Instead of expecting to get away with the same warmongering, arming proxies and creating unsafe spaces and expecting to not be penalised because other countries do it too, the idea should be to not engage in any such activities.

Again I thought the OP was being satirical with the purpose of illustrating how almost all of the points could apply to USA, IND, EUR etc. by swapping names, instances / context and events.

Problem is actually twofold here.

1) One which you described.

2) It becomes even more suicidal because the Taliban, good terrorists, etc are not operating 10K miles away. They are right next door and some cases inside Pakistan. I recon impact of these policies may have been a lot less if they were operating 10K miles away.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I actually thought the OP was satirical but looking at the responses on this thread I realise otherwise.

There isn’t too much more to it than what you’ve tabled. The truth of life is that a smaller and insignificant country risks facing repercussions for same / similar antics that larger, more powerful and pedigreed countries can get away with. So far so good. Where people often lose the plot from this point forth is to use this status quo to justify PAK (or any other country’s) wrongdoing instead of lobbying for course correction, which should be the logical course of action. Instead of expecting to get away with the same warmongering, arming proxies and creating unsafe spaces and expecting to not be penalised because other countries do it too, the idea should be to not engage in any such activities.

Again I thought the OP was being satirical with the purpose of illustrating how almost all of the points could apply to USA, IND, EUR etc. by swapping names, instances / context and events.

I agree with this completely. What recourse should PCB take though ? NZC is actually the least political of the cricket boards going around and if PCB does not have a working relationship with them, this could severely damage Pakistan cricket.

I know Wasim Khan and co. were hell bent on hosting in Pakistan itself and that the UAE is expensive but would hosting in Malaysia be the most realistic alternative ?

 

[Yk313]

Problem is actually twofold here.

1) One which you described.

2) It becomes even more suicidal because the Taliban, good terrorists, etc are not operating 10K miles away. They are right next door and some cases inside Pakistan. I recon impact of these policies may have been a lot less if they were operating 10K miles away.

Thanks. My apologies I thought it was obvious in the context of PAK but have elaborated below.

Even if US and PAK were the same size with the same degree of international clout etc. (all else being the same), the reality is that geographical proximity would hamper PAK’s progress more than it would USA’s.

I cannot recall the last time any of the Western (US, EUR) countries fought a war on their shores.

 

[Yk313]

I agree with this completely. What recourse should PCB take though ? NZC is actually the least political of the cricket boards going around and if PCB does not have a working relationship with them, this could severely damage Pakistan cricket.

I know Wasim Khan and co. were hell bent on hosting in Pakistan itself and that the UAE is expensive but would hosting in Malaysia be the most realistic alternative ?

I don’t really have an answer in terms of cricket. Frankly, my focus has not really been on cricket during the entire saga and I feel it’s best to be transparent about it. Maybe over the coming weeks a possible multi-pronged approach can be chalked out which will help sustain the economic standing of the board and also pave a way forward. I am not overly pessimistic on this front but it could equally be because my focus has been elsewhere.

I appreciate a lot of fans are reeling from the emotional fallout associated with the cricketing aspect but I am only concerned with the mortal risks that NZ govt. may have put upon their own team / squad, PAK security personnel and PAK civilians (children, women, elderly travelling to the game / queueing up to it). I think answers on this front are far more important to be had while the world continues its global fight against terror.

 

[topspin]

I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

Best response I’ve read to NZ’s pull-out.

To blame the players and NZ cricket board is just stupid. Any cricket side who is advised by their Govt to come back home due to security concerns will do exactly what NZ did.

You were the first poster who mentioned how Taliban’s rule in Afghanistan and how Pakistan’s alliance with them would hurt our cricket.

Whatever is happening in Afghanistan is spilling over to Pakistan.

Our international reputation was already in tatters given our history (especially with our involvement of hiding OBL) but it’s even worse due to our alliance with the Taliban.

Emotions are running at an all-time high among Pakistan fans but we need to calm down and realise we are part of the problem, thanks to our politics and foreign policy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Some decent points by Junaids. However, it must be noted that the West is responsible for a lot of this as well and they are unable to trust the supposed Frankensteins monster they themselves created.

Pakistan's situation is extremely bleak. They are paying the price for being in bed with the Yanks for 50 + years and now they have placed all their bets on China. Not sure how long the repercussions of that will be felt.

Unfortunately, even the rest of the Ummah doesnt seem to give a toss nor can they do anything about it even if they did. Cricket is only a tiny part of what can and may happen .

Cricket is not that important in the greater scheme of things. Pakistan's future is actually very bright and they will become a major power in the not too distant future due to their growing links with the rest of Asia thanks to the Belt Road initiative and their good relations with China. I don't know why you mentioned Ummah, this is a cricket forum, it would be like me dropping in some random stuff about hindu priests out of nowhere. Weird.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

Best response I’ve read to NZ’s pull-out.

To blame the players and NZ cricket board is just stupid. Any cricket side who is advised by their Govt to come back home due to security concerns will do exactly what NZ did.

You were the first poster who mentioned how Taliban’s rule in Afghanistan and how Pakistan’s alliance with them would hurt our cricket.

Whatever is happening in Afghanistan is spilling over to Pakistan.

Our international reputation was already in tatters given our history (especially with our involvement of hiding OBL) but it’s even worse due to our alliance with the Taliban.

Emotions are running at an all-time high among Pakistan fans but we need to calm down and realise we are part of the problem, thanks to our politics and foreign policy.

People need to be level headed to understand this which unfortuantely is not the case with majority of the people over here.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

Ok so that’s proof that the CIA Kept ISI in the dark about their plan to capture OBL?

USA bombed Afghanistan into the the Mesozoic time period just for harbouring Al-Qaida

Why did they not do the same to Pakistan?

Pak wasnt a direct threat to them and bombing Pak would have been their last option as they had many other ways to deal with Pak.

 

[Rana]

Pak wasnt a direct threat to them and bombing Pak would have been their last option as they had many other ways to deal with Pak.

So you are a CIA spokesperson also now?

 

[Bewal Express]

So you are a CIA spokesperson also now?

He was hooked in.

 

[Technics 1210]

Indians siding with 5 eyes, remember it was the 5 eyes who shared intel with Pakistan on Modi and his involvement and responsibility of the Gujrat massacre, hence he was banned in the West too.

You cannot have it both ways.

 

[street cricketer]

Ok so that’s proof that the CIA Kept ISI in the dark about their plan to capture OBL?

USA bombed Afghanistan into the the Mesozoic time period just for harbouring Al-Qaida

Why did they not do the same to Pakistan?

That the CIA kept the ISI in the dark about the Operation Neptune spear to capture Bin Laden is a widely known information. It's all over the internet.

The secret operation involved two specially modified stealth black hawk helicopters to evade the Pakistani air defence, and two additional chinook helicopters were kept standing beside a nearby lake to provide air support in case of any mishap (which happened when one of the black hawk helicopters downed).

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2013/7/10/military-failures-revealed-by-bin-laden-raid

 

[street cricketer]

USA bombed Afghanistan into the the Mesozoic time period just for harbouring Al-Qaida

Why did they not do the same to Pakistan?

There is the small matter of nuclear weapons.

 

[topspin]

People need to be level headed to understand this which unfortuantely is not the case with majority of the people over here.

The best way for Pakistanis to respond to all that's going on is to unite against the TLP, TTP, ISIS and Afghan Taliban.

 

[Yk313]

The best way for Pakistanis to respond to all that's going on is to unite against the TLP, TTP, ISIS and Afghan Taliban.

How I wish this would happen.

Back in the real world I don’t expect PAK to remotely toe this line. They are more likely to label isolated factions as enemies.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

The best way for Pakistanis to respond to all that's going on is to unite against the TLP, TTP, ISIS and Afghan Taliban.

Thats the only way to make govt. change its stand regarding these terrorist groups and act.

 

[Napa]

fair enough

All I am asking for is credible proof that it is a fact. I am not arguing with you here. I just ask for you to back this claim with proof that should put an end to speculation.

I apologise if I have misrepresented that, but I think my (perhaps incorrect) understanding is pretty widely shared.

Your understanding is not incorrect. It is widely believed (to the point that most regard it as a "fact") that the US went to extraordinary lengths to keep its Abbottabad operation secret from the Pakistanis.

 

[Rana]

Your understanding is not incorrect. It is widely believed (to the point that most regard it as a "fact") that the US went to extraordinary lengths to keep its Abbottabad operation secret from the Pakistanis.

Widely believed by who? Indians? Bollywood?

 

[deep82]

Widely believed by who? Indians? Bollywood?

When did Al-Jazeera become Indian ?

 

[street cricketer]

My thoughts on the current fiasco:

1. NZ definitely did Pakistan bad here. Pak fans have legitimate reasons to feel aggrieved because the pull out has put the future of cricket in Pakistan in jeopardy.

2. At the same time, I don't think cussing the NZ cricketers, or even the NZ board for that matter is warranted. I see people referring the Christchurch attack and equating the security situation in NZ with that of Pakistan, which is extremely silly. New Zealand is a small isolated serene island country with an extremely small population. Christchurch attack was a terrible one, but it's not the norm in New Zealand. It's one of the most peaceful countries you could find in the world. I doubt if their police even carry guns with them, you could probably find more armed civilians in Pakistan than their police force. They don't have a huge military, their air force is pretty much non existent and it doesn't matter because no one's going to invade NZ.

You will always be safer in New Zealand than any other country in the subcontinent, nevermind Pakistan regardless of what people think. The fact that NZ took the initiative to visit Pakistan despite the current situation in Afghanistan is very commendable, NZ could've easily cited Afghanistan as an excuse to opt out of the tour. The tour getting cancelled due to security advice was not based on a decision by the NZ cricketers or even their cricket board. It's based on advice from their government. Furthermore, like I said, their country has barely any military because it's largely a pacifist country. Similarly, they depend on military intelligence from the other anglo saxon nations to protect their society and the fact that the actual intelligence on the security threat came from the five eyes is not really surprising. So it makes little sense to blame NZ as a country. Once their government was advised of a serious security threat to their cricketers from the five eyes, I doubt there was much NZ could have done to overlook the advice.

3. Military intelligence from the five eyes means it's most probably political and has to do with the current situation in Afghanistan. I would wait till the ECB announces its decision. If the ECB decides to tour, then you could probably blame NZ for being extra paranoid. But if ECB cancels the tour, then the reason is most definitely political and don't expect any of the western countries (Eng, Aus, NZ) to tour Pak anytime sooner.

4. Finally Pakistan is caught in a catch 22 situation here. Now objectively most Pakistanis will agree with me that several hundred soldiers with AK guns, gun ships in the air, snipers and what not for a cricket team kinda conveys the wrong message. It kinda conveys the message "If you need several hundred troops as if on a battlefield to provide cover for a cricket team, then that place is probably not safe". At the same time, teams would be nervous to tour Pakistan with less security. So it's a bit of a paradox.

If Pakistan indeed faces a de facto boycott from the west due to political reasons, I don't think moving matches to the UAE will help matters. Ultimately I think the only solution is that Pakistan needs to slowly but surely improve its economy and at the same time, maintain a peaceful security situation inside the country. Pakistan's economy is not in the best of health right now, but if it slowly develops a very good burgeoning economy, then with Pakistan's 220M+ population, it's financial clout will increase in the ICC and one cannot be in a position to isolate Pakistan. China is at odds with most of the west, yet all the western countries trade heavily with China and they cannot afford to isolate China because of the sheer size of China's economy. Economy is what decides how countries respect you and if Pakistan has a great economy, you will see countries lining up to tour Pakistan even if the security provided is lesser than what they provided for NZ. Why do you think these foreign cricketers didn't mind playing the IPL in the midst of a severe coronavirus wave. If India had a struggling economy, it wouldn't have had anywhere near the current clout it enjoys in the ICC and consequently these foreign cricketers wouldn't be lining up to tour the country. Ultimately economy is what decides the status of a country because everyone is after money in one way or the other, including you and me.

 

[street cricketer]

Widely believed by who? Indians? Bollywood?

https://youtu.be/QMSMbKZRmZI

Watch from 1:00 onwards. This is from Leon Panetta, the bloke who headed the CIA when OBL was killed.

 

[street cricketer]

Widely believed by who? Indians? Bollywood?

You just have to ask the simple question, if the ISI was in the loop with the CIA operation to capture/kill OBL, why would they allow the Americans to conduct an operation inside their sovereign territory willingly.

Wouldn't they have conducted the same operation to capture OBL, that is, if they wanted to do so..

 

[Rana]

You just have to ask the simple question, if the ISI was in the loop with the CIA operation to capture/kill OBL, why would they allow the Americans to conduct an operation inside their sovereign territory willingly.

Wouldn't they have conducted the same operation to capture OBL, that is, if they wanted to do so..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fr...khan-bin-laden-pakistani-usa-cia-intelligence

So who do I believe now? Imran Khan or some western narrative? Maybe the western narrative is credible because it isn’t Pakistani

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My thoughts on the current fiasco:

1. NZ definitely did Pakistan bad here. Pak fans have legitimate reasons to feel aggrieved because the pull out has put the future of cricket in Pakistan in jeopardy.

2. At the same time, I don't think cussing the NZ cricketers, or even the NZ board for that matter is warranted. I see people referring the Christchurch attack and equating the security situation in NZ with that of Pakistan, which is extremely silly. New Zealand is a small isolated serene island country with an extremely small population. Christchurch attack was a terrible one, but it's not the norm in New Zealand. It's one of the most peaceful countries you could find in the world. I doubt if their police even carry guns with them, you could probably find more armed civilians in Pakistan than their police force. They don't have a huge military, their air force is pretty much non existent and it doesn't matter because no one's going to invade NZ.

You will always be safer in New Zealand than any other country in the subcontinent, nevermind Pakistan regardless of what people think. The fact that NZ took the initiative to visit Pakistan despite the current situation in Afghanistan is very commendable, NZ could've easily cited Afghanistan as an excuse to opt out of the tour. The tour getting cancelled due to security advice was not based on a decision by the NZ cricketers or even their cricket board. It's based on advice from their government. Furthermore, like I said, their country has barely any military because it's largely a pacifist country. Similarly, they depend on military intelligence from the other anglo saxon nations to protect their society and the fact that the actual intelligence on the security threat came from the five eyes is not really surprising. So it makes little sense to blame NZ as a country. Once their government was advised of a serious security threat to their cricketers from the five eyes, I doubt there was much NZ could have done to overlook the advice.

3. Military intelligence from the five eyes means it's most probably political and has to do with the current situation in Afghanistan. I would wait till the ECB announces its decision. If the ECB decides to tour, then you could probably blame NZ for being extra paranoid. But if ECB cancels the tour, then the reason is most definitely political and don't expect any of the western countries (Eng, Aus, NZ) to tour Pak anytime sooner.

4. Finally Pakistan is caught in a catch 22 situation here. Now objectively most Pakistanis will agree with me that several hundred soldiers with AK guns, gun ships in the air, snipers and what not for a cricket team kinda conveys the wrong message. It kinda conveys the message "If you need several hundred troops as if on a battlefield to provide cover for a cricket team, then that place is probably not safe". At the same time, teams would be nervous to tour Pakistan with less security. So it's a bit of a paradox.

If Pakistan indeed faces a de facto boycott from the west due to political reasons, I don't think moving matches to the UAE will help matters. Ultimately I think the only solution is that Pakistan needs to slowly but surely improve its economy and at the same time, maintain a peaceful security situation inside the country. Pakistan's economy is not in the best of health right now, but if it slowly develops a very good burgeoning economy, then with Pakistan's 220M+ population, it's financial clout will increase in the ICC and one cannot be in a position to isolate Pakistan. China is at odds with most of the west, yet all the western countries trade heavily with China and they cannot afford to isolate China because of the sheer size of China's economy. Economy is what decides how countries respect you and if Pakistan has a great economy, you will see countries lining up to tour Pakistan even if the security provided is lesser than what they provided for NZ. Why do you think these foreign cricketers didn't mind playing the IPL in the midst of a severe coronavirus wave. If India had a struggling economy, it wouldn't have had anywhere near the current clout it enjoys in the ICC and consequently these foreign cricketers wouldn't be lining up to tour the country. Ultimately economy is what decides the status of a country because everyone is after money in one way or the other, including you and me.

A very reasonable and balanced post. I may not agree with everything you just said but wholeheartedly agree with alot of what you said.

Also feel that equating this with the Christchurch attack is not fair. It was a tragedy and should not be brought up for point-scoring. If I brought it up before, I apologize.

That said, as far as the security aspect is concerned I don't agree. Its not whether the country is safe or not. No country in the world is 100% safe. But rather its about eliminating even the 0.1% chance of an incident occurring (which exists even in a peaceful country like New Zealand) by having literally every base covered.

And while no country may have as much security for touring teams as much as Pakistan does; Sri Lanka and Bangladesh also heavily beef up security whenever foreign teams visit. Just because they don't make the news for it doesn't mean that isn't the case. India I can't say for sure because I don't know about what they do. You would know better about that.

Just one example of stringent security in Bangladesh:

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/fea...hris-stocks-terrorist-attack-dhaka/2016-11-02

 

[Buffet]

Widely believed by who?

"America coming to our territory and taking action is a violation of our sovereignty, handling and execution of the operation [by U.S. forces] is not correct. The Pakistani government should have been kept in the loop." -- Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf

Salman Bashir, the country's foreign secretary, said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal that a repeat of Monday's raid could lead to "terrible consequences." Pakistani and U.S. officials have said Pakistan was not told about the attack that killed bin Laden until after the fact, which has led to Pakistani protests that their sovereignty was violated.

Mr. Bashir said that Pakistan had scrambled two F-16 fighter jets after becoming aware of the attack. A confrontation was averted only because they arrived on the scene after the U.S. helicopters involved in the raid had crossed back into Afghan air space. They had flown to Abbottabad from Afghanistan.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/02/osama-bin-laden-pakistan-awkward-questions

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132

 

[Savak]

Thanks to Nawaz Sharif, Asif Zardari, Bhuttos for the state of the Pakistani economy today

 

[Rana]

"America coming to our territory and taking action is a violation of our sovereignty, handling and execution of the operation [by U.S. forces] is not correct. The Pakistani government should have been kept in the loop." -- Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf

Salman Bashir, the country's foreign secretary, said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal that a repeat of Monday's raid could lead to "terrible consequences." Pakistani and U.S. officials have said Pakistan was not told about the attack that killed bin Laden until after the fact, which has led to Pakistani protests that their sovereignty was violated.

Mr. Bashir said that Pakistan had scrambled two F-16 fighter jets after becoming aware of the attack. A confrontation was averted only because they arrived on the scene after the U.S. helicopters involved in the raid had crossed back into Afghan air space. They had flown to Abbottabad from Afghanistan.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/02/osama-bin-laden-pakistan-awkward-questions

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704810504576305033789955132

So ISI knew where Bin Laden was hiding and kept him secret for so long, but they didn’t have the knowledge of a plan to attack him?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.fr...khan-bin-laden-pakistani-usa-cia-intelligence

So who do I believe now? Imran Khan or some western narrative? Maybe the western narrative is credible because it isn’t Pakistani

Pakistan's narrative was the same. Check what [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] has put up above

 

[Buffet]

So ISI knew where Bin Laden was hiding and kept him secret for so long, but they didn’t have the knowledge of a plan to attack him?

I simply citing Pakistan's president and foreign secretary saying that Pakistan did not know and even put F16 in the air as a response.

Pakistan claimed that they did not know about the compound.

"the compound was not on our radar, it is an embarrassment for the ISI", the official said.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-13268517

----------

I am really surprised that all this is news to you.

 

[Rana]

I love it how Indians are desperate to prove ISI’s negligence in the OBL raid.

So Pakistan was knowingly giving refuge to the most wanted man in the world (FBI listings), a man who funded the 9/11 attacks and embarrassed the worlds most powerful nation in an operation that took 4-5 years in the planning, executed perfectly with the hijacking of 4 planes leading to 2000+ deaths.

CIA know that OBL is in Pakistan, they are now openly tracking him through satellites and assets on ground. Instead of waging war against the country that has given refuge to its biggest enemy, they arrive in the dark and kill 20 odd people in the house, extract bodies and leave?

How does any of this make sense if the ISI or Pakistan government did not assist the US? Why was Pakistan/Islamabad/Abbottabad not blown into smithereens??

 

[Rana]

The CIA were worried about ISI notifying OBL...the ISI were already too late for that lol

OBL’s every move now was being tracked so where is he supposed to run to??

 

[Rana]

Pakistan's narrative was the same. Check what [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] has put up above

This is not the same

 

[topspin]

How I wish this would happen.

Back in the real world I don’t expect PAK to remotely toe this line. They are more likely to label isolated factions as enemies.

Yes and lets not forget those who prayed Janazah for OBL across various Pakistan cities.

It's this kind of mentality that is helping the cause of these terrorists.

 

[street cricketer]

So ISI knew where Bin Laden was hiding and kept him secret for so long, but they didn’t have the knowledge of a plan to attack him?

I'll put it bluntly.

The ISI knew OBL's whereabouts all along. I mean, it would be nigh on impossible for it to not know about it, given he literally lived about two lanes away from the military headquarters in a highly secure building in a large compound with 18 feet high walls, barbed wires and opaque windows. It basically stood like a sore thumb in the neighbourhood and any decent police force would have known something's up with the building, nevermind the intelligence agency of a sovereign country.

What's likely was that the building itself was constructed by the ISI to safehouse OBL under their watch. Asad Durrani in an interview with Mehdi Hasan hinted that they knew of OBL's whereabouts but they were probably waiting for an opportunity to use him as a bargaining chip with the US. So the ISI knew his whereabouts. The Americans knew this as well once they found out his location, which is why they proceeded with the operation to capture/kill OBL without the ISI's knowledge.

 

[topspin]

Thats the only way to make govt. change its stand regarding these terrorist groups and act.

The tone should be set from the top however instead we are led by a president who would prefer to call OBL a Shaheed.

 

[Rana]

I'll put it bluntly.

The ISI knew OBL's whereabouts all along. I mean, it would be nigh on impossible for it to not know about it, given he literally lived about two lanes away from the military headquarters in a highly secure building in a large compound with 18 feet high walls, barbed wires and opaque windows. It basically stood like a sore thumb in the neighbourhood and any decent police force would have known something's up with the building, nevermind the intelligence agency of a sovereign country.

What's likely was that the building itself was constructed by the ISI to safehouse OBL under their watch. Asad Durrani in an interview with Mehdi Hasan hinted that they knew of OBL's whereabouts but they were probably waiting for an opportunity to use him as a bargaining chip with the US. So the ISI knew his whereabouts. The Americans knew this as well once they found out his location, which is why they proceeded with the operation to capture/kill OBL without the ISI's knowledge.

The last part doesn’t make sense strategically.

The US have done more to nuclear powers such as Iraq and Iran in their war against them. Why would they not punish Pakistan for knowingly housing the most wanted man in US history?

 

[shaz72]

Pakistan isn't a big entity for West worth to have "anti pak" stand. You are overestimating Pakistan here.

That's why there was 6 foreign ministers visited in just 7 days and equal number of head of states had called Pakistan PM to discuss regional and Geo political scenario, was literally begging Pakistan to provide passage for safe exit. If you don't know about politics better not comment on it. The hate for Pakistan is easily visible. So take cup of tea relaxed.

 

[Rana]

That's why there was 6 foreign ministers visited in just 7 days and equal number of head of states had called Pakistan PM to discuss regional and Geo political scenario, was literally begging Pakistan to provide passage for safe exit. If you don't know about politics better not comment on it. The hate for Pakistan is easily visible. So take cup of tea relaxed.

This is what I am arguing here as well.

Why didn’t the US declare war on Pakistan for housing OBL? What would they do if OBL was being housed in Somalia or Nepal?

 

[Abu_Hamza]

So you are a CIA spokesperson also now?

So u wanted two countries bombing each other with nuclear bombs and missiles.

 

[Rana]

So u wanted two countries bombing each other with nuclear bombs and missiles.

That didn’t happen when the US killed the Iranian commander, or when Pakistan did Pulwama apparently

 

[Itachi]

That's why there was 6 foreign ministers visited in just 7 days and equal number of head of states had called Pakistan PM to discuss regional and Geo political scenario, was literally begging Pakistan to provide passage for safe exit. If you don't know about politics better not comment on it. The hate for Pakistan is easily visible. So take cup of tea relaxed.

That's called diplomacy. Take any country and story will be same.

 

[street cricketer]

The last part doesn’t make sense strategically.

The US have done more to nuclear powers such as Iraq and Iran in their war against them. Why would they not punish Pakistan for knowingly housing the most wanted man in US history?

I did not know that Iraq and Iran were nuclear states like Pakistan.

In any case, it's not as simple as declaring war against Pakistan. Firstly, Pakistan was an ally of the USA's War on Terror in Afghanistan. Secondly Pakistan was, is and always will be a huge player in Afghanistan simply because of the porous border between the two and the fact that both countries share a huge Pashtun population. It is why the US used Pakistan as a middleman to arm the Mujahideen with its weapons during the Soviet Afghan war. And when it invaded Afghanistan after 9/11, it needed Pak's help to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Attacking Pakistan would've meant that they wouldn't have the grassroot-level access inside Afghanistan in their fight against the Taliban.

Just imagine. The US forces in Afghanistan already had a hostile Iran on the west. If it attacked Pakistan, it would have a hostile nuclear state to the east. And add to that, it would be facing hostile resistance from the Taliban and other outfits within Afghanistan, why would US choose such a nightmare scenario.

Finally, it's not as simple as accusing Pakistan and attacking it. ISI would simply feign ignorance of the fact that OBL resided in Abbotabad. The CIA initially toyed with the idea of bombing the building. But once they knew families lived inside the compound, they changed the nature of their operation.

 

[Itachi]

I love it how Indians are desperate to prove ISI’s negligence in the OBL raid.

So Pakistan was knowingly giving refuge to the most wanted man in the world (FBI listings), a man who funded the 9/11 attacks and embarrassed the worlds most powerful nation in an operation that took 4-5 years in the planning, executed perfectly with the hijacking of 4 planes leading to 2000+ deaths.

CIA know that OBL is in Pakistan, they are now openly tracking him through satellites and assets on ground. Instead of waging war against the country that has given refuge to its biggest enemy, they arrive in the dark and kill 20 odd people in the house, extract bodies and leave?

How does any of this make sense if the ISI or Pakistan government did not assist the US? Why was Pakistan/Islamabad/Abbottabad not blown into smithereens??

You just couldn't put forward any argument against buffet. That was embarrassing to say the least when you try to sway the focus towards Indian when there is incompetence on your part in case of counter argument.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

I love it how Indians are desperate to prove ISI’s negligence in the OBL raid.

So Pakistan was knowingly giving refuge to the most wanted man in the world (FBI listings), a man who funded the 9/11 attacks and embarrassed the worlds most powerful nation in an operation that took 4-5 years in the planning, executed perfectly with the hijacking of 4 planes leading to 2000+ deaths.

CIA know that OBL is in Pakistan, they are now openly tracking him through satellites and assets on ground. Instead of waging war against the country that has given refuge to its biggest enemy, they arrive in the dark and kill 20 odd people in the house, extract bodies and leave?

How does any of this make sense if the ISI or Pakistan government did not assist the US? Why was Pakistan/Islamabad/Abbottabad not blown into smithereens??

So USA should have blown Pakistan for OBL. U dont wana accept then thats ur problem that ISI was hand in gloves with OBL so USA did it on their own. U dont trust Al zazeera also. Everything is a filmy script for you.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

You just couldn't put forward any argument against buffet. That was embarrassing to say the least when you try to sway the focus towards Indian when there is incompetence on your part in case of counter argument.

He is behaving like an ostrich and doesnt want to accept the reality.

 

[Rana]

You just couldn't put forward any argument against buffet. That was embarrassing to say the least when you try to sway the focus towards Indian when there is incompetence on your part in case of counter argument.

I’ve provided my evidence and logic. Just because my evidence is a Pakistani witness statement or pro Pakistani will not be acknowledged by Indians or anti Pakistanis. There is no winner here

 

[Rana]

So USA should have blown Pakistan for OBL. U dont wana accept then thats ur problem that ISI was hand in gloves with OBL so USA did it on their own. U dont trust Al zazeera also. Everything is a filmy script for you.

Forget blowing Pakistan up

They did NOTHING to harm Pakistan. At least India had the courage to send some fighter jets into Pak airspace for apparently sheltering Jaish Terrorists

 

[ManFan]

I for one am sick and tired of listening to the OP’s patronizing attitude towards Pakistan and it’s values.

If you don’t like them, leave them.

And this whole fiasco, comes down to one word. MONEY.

These cricketers would play next to a war zone if given the right price. PCB does not have the financial pull of the Big Three to push its weight around so it has to deal with the consequences.

Just please stop with the jive foreign policy analysis I’ve seen posters spewing out these last two days. This has nothing to do with geopolitical differences but has everything to do with media and money.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

Dude, what load of bovine excrement at the end at your at “advising PCB”?

What an act of posing yourself as hopelessly romantic yet sexually frustrated and deeply confused philosopher when it comes to "giving advice" to PCB

You need to provide a universal way to measure the standard and quality of security that PCB needs to follow n achieve, and then international security agencies should use the same universal measure to see if we meet the required level of security or not?

It’s laughable when you “advise” PCB to keep doing what it’s doing but get ready to face what happened with NZ.

Are you out of your mind?

Do you know the amount of time, effort and money it costs to host such tours?
And you are saying when should keep shooting in the dark in hopes to hit the jackpot?

Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.

Does anything sound more ridiculous to you? Read again, if not.

Unless there is a universal measure in place to quantify the security that PCB should meet, I would rather ask PCB to don’t even bother with this stupid gamble that you posted as an “advice”.


Second, this idiotic logical assertion to link the security threats in Pakistan to neighboring Talibans.
How?
On one hand, Pakistan govt and ISI is labeled to have helped Talibans. And IK being stigmatized as friendly towards Talibans. Your ISI chief is hands in hands with with the top Taliban leadership in Kabul.

When you connect these dots, Talibans in neighboring Afghanistan are the least probable entity to cause security threats in Pakistan.

Are you saying Talibans are prone to return the favor by launching an attack on NZ team in Pakistan? To achieve what? Damage ties with Pakistan?

IMO,
If there was a genuinely credible threat of a security breach then the highest possibility of that happening could most likely come from one of our own security personal who has a loaded a weapon and he is being placed to guard the team.

They said, god knows, like 5000 policemen were in-place as part of security. And I wondered how did they find 5000 honest police officers?
I mean if it was a like a 100, then I would've swallowed it, but 5000?

A with a little money, you can buy almost any policemen in Pakistan. Same goes with many people in other security teams. Anyone could be bought or may have secret links to other organizations. Unfortunately, we don't have a comprehensive and super solid and reliable background checking system in-place in the third world.
High inflation, and low income makes it easy to buy almost anyone's honesty.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

Dude, what load of bovine excrement at the end at your at “advising PCB”?

What an act of posing yourself as hopelessly romantic yet sexually frustrated and deeply confused philosopher when it comes to "giving advice" to PCB

You need to provide a universal way to measure the standard and quality of security that PCB needs to follow n achieve, and then international security agencies should use the same universal measure to see if we meet the required level of security or not?

It’s laughable when you “advise” PCB to keep doing what it’s doing but get ready to face what happened with NZ.

Are you out of your mind?

Do you know the amount of time, effort and money it costs to host such tours?
And you are saying when should keep shooting in the dark in hopes to hit the jackpot?




Does anything sound more ridiculous to you? Read again, if not.

Unless there is a universal measure in place to quantify the security that PCB should meet, I would rather ask PCB to don’t even bother with this stupid gamble that you posted as an “advice”.


Second, this idiotic logical assertion to link the security threats in Pakistan to neighboring Talibans.
How?
On one hand, Pakistan govt and ISI is labeled to have helped Talibans. And IK being stigmatized as friendly towards Talibans. Your ISI chief is hands in hands with with the top Taliban leadership in Kabul.

When you connect these dots, Talibans in neighboring Afghanistan are the least probable entity to cause security threats in Pakistan.

Are you saying Talibans are prone to return the favor by launching an attack on NZ team in Pakistan? To achieve what? Damage ties with Pakistan?

IMO,
If there was a genuinely credible threat of a security breach then the highest possibility of that happening could most likely come from one of our own security personal who has a loaded a weapon and he is being placed to guard the team.

They said, god knows, like 5000 policemen were in-place as part of security. And I wondered how did they find 5000 honest police officers?
I mean if it was a like a 100, then I would've swallowed it, but 5000?

A with a little money, you can buy almost any policemen in Pakistan. Same goes with many people in other security teams. Anyone could be bought or may have secret links to other organizations. Unfortunately, we don't have a comprehensive and super solid and reliable background checking system in-place in the third world.
High inflation, and low income makes it easy to buy almost anyone's honesty.

TTP is a threat.

Pakistani Taliban rejected Pakistan government’s offer of amnesty saying their struggle will continue until establishing Sharia.

TTP also said it’s the Pakistan security forces that should ask for forgiveness. “We’ll only forgive them if they promise Sharia in the country.”

They would go to any distance to make their presence felt. And an attack on a cricket team of whites is most likely thing to happen as it will attract the media attention across the world.

Now you see. You can google it.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

Forget blowing Pakistan up

They did NOTHING to harm Pakistan. At least India had the courage to send some fighter jets into Pak airspace for apparently sheltering Jaish Terrorists

They got what they wanted so why they would have done that.

 

[Rana]

They got what they wanted so why they would have done that.

And what about the people who supported their enemy? What about those ISI and Pak agents who helped shelter OBL? What did they do about them?

 

[street cricketer]

A very reasonable and balanced post. I may not agree with everything you just said but wholeheartedly agree with alot of what you said.

Also feel that equating this with the Christchurch attack is not fair. It was a tragedy and should not be brought up for point-scoring. If I brought it up before, I apologize.

That said, as far as the security aspect is concerned I don't agree. Its not whether the country is safe or not. No country in the world is 100% safe. But rather its about eliminating even the 0.1% chance of an incident occurring (which exists even in a peaceful country like New Zealand) by having literally every base covered.

And while no country may have as much security for touring teams as much as Pakistan does; Sri Lanka and Bangladesh also heavily beef up security whenever foreign teams visit. Just because they don't make the news for it doesn't mean that isn't the case. India I can't say for sure because I don't know about what they do. You would know better about that.

Just one example of stringent security in Bangladesh:

https://www.cricket.com.au/news/fea...hris-stocks-terrorist-attack-dhaka/2016-11-02

Mishaps can happen anywhere. But one thing greatly matters regarding security perception of any country - reputation and image perception. It's why cricketers travel even via public transport like the tube in the UK like common people but they need high security in the subcontinent. The subcontinent is third world where you don't know what anyone would do and the problems of the subcontinent are not remotely comparable to countries like NZ.

You are right, security is indeed beefed up when cricket teams tour in Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. It's not as severe in India as it is in the other subcontinent countries, but you at least have a couple of police jeeps ahead of the touring team bus.

https://youtu.be/KRYkO-0XTJg

But lets not forget that a gory Holey Artisan bakery attack happened in Bangladesh targeting the foreigners. Similarly a bombing during Christmas in Sri Lanka in hotels and churches happened recently. Yet, people and players don't perceive these countries as risky as Pakistan to tour. It's because of the same reason why people are criticising NZ here - damaging Pak's reputation and perception. Every country has negative perceptions. For the average westerner, India's negative perceptions might mean poverty, maybe scam calls, or delhi belly. For Pakistan, it's unfortunately extremism whether right or wrong. For the average guy in the west, Pakistan reminds people of Daniel Pearl, OBL, London Tube bombings, etc. For the average western cricketer, you can add the bombing of the Sheraton hotel in 2002 targeted against the French engineers where NZ cricketers had a narrow escape and the 2009 attacks against the SL team where they had an even narrower escape from death.

So all these incidents form a image of Pakistan in the minds of the westerners. And that has what kept back cricket from returning to Pakistan for nearly a decade. Now when you add the Taliban to the equation, you can see why Sri Lanka and Bangladesh don't have the same negative perception. Yes the civil war happened in Sri Lanka but it wasn't targeted against the foreigners. The Holey Artisan bakery attack was specifically targeted against the foreigners but that was a lone attack, Bangladesh's neighbourhood itself is peaceful. The western nations aren't even in the same ball park as the countries in the subcontinent regarding image perception.

Now I know the security in Pakistan has improved massively since the tragic APS attack and the subsequent Zarb e Azb operations. But I know that because I follow the affairs of the country closely, which may not be the same case for the average foreigner. That perception in the west will take time to change, it will need sustained stability in the country for some years with improving economic situation, everything is interconnected afterall. The Taliban coming to power in Afghanistan has definitely not helped matters for Pakistan but it depends on how things pan out in Afghanistan. If the Taliban manage to evolve into somewhat of an Iran like theocratic state with relative stability, it would help Pakistan. But if things become unstable, terrorist outfits breed rampant and the likes of IS-K take a foothold in the country, then that would invariably affect Pakistan's image perception as well.

 

[Itachi]

I’ve provided my evidence and logic. Just because my evidence is a Pakistani witness statement or pro Pakistani will not be acknowledged by Indians or anti Pakistanis. There is no winner here

Can you quote your argument(above mentioned one) which I can read as reply to buffets post?

 

[topspin]

TTP is a threat.

Pakistani Taliban rejected Pakistan government’s offer of amnesty saying their struggle will continue until establishing Sharia.

TTP also said it’s the Pakistan security forces that should ask for forgiveness. “We’ll only forgive them if they promise Sharia in the country.”

They would go to any distance to make their presence felt. And an attack on a cricket team of whites is most likely thing to happen as it will attract the media attention across the world.

Now you see. You can google it.

Sadly the only way the Pakistan army will wake up and go on to eliminate them is when they become a target of the TTP.

Pakistan followed the same approach until the terrorists decided to target an army school in Peshawar.

Negotiating with the TTP is never going to be a solution.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

And what about the people who supported their enemy? What about those ISI and Pak agents who helped shelter OBL? What did they do about them?

OBL was their only main target at that time as they too had to show to their citizens that they wont seat back before hunting OBL and avenge the loss of lives that he caused.. Now they are certainly making a distance from Pak with what happend in AFG and also things of past has a role to play evident from Antony Blinken's statement.

 

[Itachi]

I for one am sick and tired of listening to the OP’s patronizing attitude towards Pakistan and it’s values.

If you don’t like them, leave them.

And this whole fiasco, comes down to one word. MONEY.

These cricketers would play next to a war zone if given the right price. PCB does not have the financial pull of the Big Three to push its weight around so it has to deal with the consequences.

Just please stop with the jive foreign policy analysis I’ve seen posters spewing out these last two days. This has nothing to do with geopolitical differences but has everything to do with media and money.

Had Pakistan have good reputation, even amidst threats, cricket would have go on.

It didn't because Pakistan has a shady past and no one trusts anymore.

 

[Saj]

They may verify NZC's decision, but only to protect NZC's image rather any security issue. It's like the anglophile countries sticking together type thing.

Five Eyes - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States

 

[Kroll]

Five Eyes - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States

If it was as simple as that, England would already have called off the tour shortly after NZ's pull out. Also, are the UK relying on this Five Eyes intelligence alone?

What about MI6 and the ECB's own security teams etc?

 

[Kroll]

Junaids is a top notch poster but I think this thread is largely redundant for this situation except for maybe point 3 in OP.

We're not all stupid or naïve as not to understand the geopolitical landscape. There's a lot of babbling on in that post which has no relevance to what happened. At the end of the day, international cricket teams and players have come to Pakistan, played their cricket, enjoyed their stay and went home.

NZ were happy to come after their security cleared the tour. We're all left baffled because we don't know what happened to make them suddenly up sticks and run. No one's claimed anything and NZC isn't forthcoming with their own information.

 

[ManFan]

Had Pakistan have good reputation, even amidst threats, cricket would have go on.

It didn't because Pakistan has a shady past and no one trusts anymore.

That’s not the reason why. The reason is that the players simply did not want to tour in the first place. If the threat was security, then no team would have toured in the last five years.

There had been premonitions about them abandoning the tour beforehand. I’m afraid it simply is a case of political backlash. That’s all I will say on the “foreign policy” aspect.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Mishaps can happen anywhere. But one thing greatly matters regarding security perception of any country - reputation and image perception. It's why cricketers travel even via public transport like the tube in the UK like common people but they need high security in the subcontinent. The subcontinent is third world where you don't know what anyone would do and the problems of the subcontinent are not remotely comparable to countries like NZ.

You are right, security is indeed beefed up when cricket teams tour in Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. It's not as severe in India as it is in the other subcontinent countries, but you at least have a couple of police jeeps ahead of the touring team bus.

https://youtu.be/KRYkO-0XTJg

But lets not forget that a gory Holey Artisan bakery attack happened in Bangladesh targeting the foreigners. Similarly a bombing during Christmas in Sri Lanka in hotels and churches happened recently. Yet, people and players don't perceive these countries as risky as Pakistan to tour. It's because of the same reason why people are criticising NZ here - damaging Pak's reputation and perception. Every country has negative perceptions. For the average westerner, India's negative perceptions might mean poverty, maybe scam calls, or delhi belly. For Pakistan, it's unfortunately extremism whether right or wrong. For the average guy in the west, Pakistan reminds people of Daniel Pearl, OBL, London Tube bombings, etc. For the average western cricketer, you can add the bombing of the Sheraton hotel in 2002 targeted against the French engineers where NZ cricketers had a narrow escape and the 2009 attacks against the SL team where they had an even narrower escape from death.

So all these incidents form a image of Pakistan in the minds of the westerners. And that has what kept back cricket from returning to Pakistan for nearly a decade. Now when you add the Taliban to the equation, you can see why Sri Lanka and Bangladesh don't have the same negative perception. Yes the civil war happened in Sri Lanka but it wasn't targeted against the foreigners. The Holey Artisan bakery attack was specifically targeted against the foreigners but that was a lone attack, Bangladesh's neighbourhood itself is peaceful. The western nations aren't even in the same ball park as the countries in the subcontinent regarding image perception.

Now I know the security in Pakistan has improved massively since the tragic APS attack and the subsequent Zarb e Azb operations. But I know that because I follow the affairs of the country closely, which may not be the same case for the average foreigner. That perception in the west will take time to change, it will need sustained stability in the country for some years with improving economic situation, everything is interconnected afterall. The Taliban coming to power in Afghanistan has definitely not helped matters for Pakistan but it depends on how things pan out in Afghanistan. If the Taliban manage to evolve into somewhat of an Iran like theocratic state with relative stability, it would help Pakistan. But if things become unstable, terrorist outfits breed rampant and the likes of IS-K take a foothold in the country, then that would invariably affect Pakistan's image perception as well.

I can't say I disagree with anything you said here. It's an unfortunate situation. But at the end of the day there's only so much the PCB can do if external forces keep meddling in a bid to keep that perception alive.

As for Afghanistan. Its hard to see things changing considering the country (which was already severely underdeveloped) has been ravaged by a 20 year war and has no economy or state structure to speak of. I think Pakistan can still manage things with an unstable Afghanistan, as it has for years. But like you rightly said, that too will have an effect on Pakistan's perception in the world.

All in all, a pretty dreary situation if you're a Pakistani cricket fan.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

If it was as simple as that, England would already have called off the tour shortly after NZ's pull out. Also, are the UK relying on this Five Eyes intelligence alone?

What about MI6 and the ECB's own security teams etc?

MI6 is part of the five eyes, as is CIA. They all share intel with each other.

 

[drubwrubnat]

OP, and a lot of people are talking very diverse things. Im not a Pakistani, so im not much angered or affected by this , so I have a slightly different hypothesis. I may be wrong, but atleast im thinking different.

So firstly, NZ is like the Shire from the LOTR, right, it’s literally the most beautiful part of the world. Theyve never heard of a risk, let alone take a risk, like if you have a robbery it makes headlines. You are asking 15 boys - B team means they have near 0 exposure to Pakistan or other subcontinent.

Now i checked it up, its a long tour - 20+ days. They say India is the hardest place to tour, but im pretty sure youll agree that with all your gunmen & toyotas & pathan suits, not to mention the Taliban , and a random phone call here, and some nudge there - Pakistan tour is much harder. That too 20 days. Its not small guys thats a lot really, esp with the security cover. Pretty sure they would have liked the food, attention & weather on the 1st day - but guess what on the 3rd day , they just couldnt take it. The security, the risk, the chaos in subcontinent - they were like oh my god, we cant take 3 weeks of this.

Now it would be a breeze for a team like India/SA because their countries are used to chaos. But these guys are not used to this, they chickened out - flat out.

So they just wanted to go home, they couldnt handle it that long, so they cooked up some random thing last minute because they cant go back mid tour. If they play the first match, then they cant go home till the last day.

Now there are many members of this fora from abroad, they will agree that - Eng/Aus/NZ will never admit their fault, weaknesses ever. White people never engage in confrontation, they just leave. Im serious. Ive seen people get fired, and just to avoid confrontation, they fire people on the fone even if they are carrying expensive company belongings, just to avoid confrontation. So they quietly left, they knew that if they tell you the real reason, you will convince them otherwise to stay. So they didnt tell you anything, just cooked up something. It was these players inability to cope up.

Now about the image thing - yes I totally concur that it dents the image of Pakistan, but it would dent NZ image as well if people get to know they chickened out.

So this is how this fiasco played out, in my opinion. Things like this happen in life.

 

[ahsan17]

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.

The same credible threat from 5 eyes that caused 10 Afghan civilians to get vaporized few weeks ago, and God knows how many other civilians in drone strikes over the last decade+? The same one that caused the invasion of Iraq? I mean we have some people here questioning the credibility of Pakistan over 1 incident in 2009, but dozens of **** up incidents based on bad 'credible intelligence' are nothing.

 

[Kroll]

MI6 is part of the five eyes, as is CIA. They all share intel with each other.

Yep, you're right after looking having looked it up. But I still think ECB's decision was more heavily influenced by NZ's pull out than security intelligence.

I appreciate you're an Indian but what do you honestly think?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Yep, you're right after looking having looked it up. But I still think ECB's decision was more heavily influenced by NZ's pull out than security intelligence.

I appreciate you're an Indian but what do you honestly think?

I don't know if there was an actual security threat but Pakistan has been disrespected and there's no excuse for how the situation was handled.

 

[Golden arm]

I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

2. Nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistan's intelligence gathering agencies. No western country will trust them, and no western country would ever share sensitive intelligence with them.
Three things ensured that.
i) The 2009 Lahore attack on the Sri Lanka team, plus the 2002 Karachi attack in Inzamam's 329 Test.
ii) The fact that Osama Bin Laden was sheltered in Abbottabad of all places, and that the Americans were only able to successfully execute their attack by excluding the ISI, which is universally assumed to have sheltered and protected him.
iii) The fact that the Taliban - after winning zero seats out of 250 in the 2018 Afghan election - has returned to power with the clear patronage of the Pakistan political and intelligence elite.
The last of those points is the clearest one now. Two decades without Taliban rule had seen the Pakistan armed forces, intelligence services and political elite regain a small amount of credibility in western countries. But the return of the unwanted Taliban to power in Afghanistan has made their friends and allies into Pariahs once more.

3. Any western sports team will leave instantly if they are warned by their own security services of an imminent danger.

It's unrealistic to the point of fantasy to think that New Zealand, for example, would have responded to a warning of a threat by defying its own government and intelligence services. That's just inconceivable.

The same thing would have happened even before the Taliban returned to power. But now that they are back - and every Western government rightly or wrongly sees the ISI's fingerprints all over it - the chances that New Zealand Cricket would defy their own government and stay in response to Pakistani assurances, or share sensitive intelligence with Pakistan are simply ZERO.

4. Blaming your guests for obeying their own government's directions to go home after a reported immediate threat is politically dumb and counter-productive.

The fact that New Zealand was there, on matchday, shows that the Board, the players and the management staff were in Pakistan in good faith and intended to play. Even though they all know people like Mark Richardson and Craig McMillan and Stephen Fleming who have heard a bomb go off in Pakistan.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the 2021 team could have just ignored their government's orders is a fool. I expected more of Rameez Raja, and I am shocked by the stupidity - and self-damaging nature - of his comments.

5. The Pakistan Prime Minister's comments resonate around the cricket world.

Imran Khan is not a politician like any other. Every man - but also every woman - over the age of 40 in the cricket world knows exactly who he is. Most of us in the west giggle at his ludicrous misogynistic comments about women attracting rape by their clothing because we remember his romantic activities with English, American and Australian women. But every time he makes a comment like that he inadvertently positions western perceptions of Pakistan as more and more intertwined with our perceptions of Afghanistan. His comments and actions towards the Taliban are even more destructive to Pakistan cricket.

In summary, an unintended consequence for Pakistan of the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan is that Pakistan has returned to Pariah status in the cricket world.

So much good political work had taken place with the England and Wales Cricket Board and Cricket South Africa in particular in recent years. And it has all been fatally undermined by the resumption of Taliban rule, and by the perception that they were enabled in it by Pakistan's intelligence services.

My advice to the PCB is simple.

1. Continue the diplomatic work.
2. Continue to schedule international tours, but understand that there will be a very low threshold for their unilateral cancellation by the opposition.
3. Accept that when tours get cancelled for security reasons, the way to behave is to say "Of course we support the safety of the New Zealand team, and we would never think of asking them to remain here when they feel unsafe. they leave with our blessing, but we hope it was a false alarm, and we hope to host our dear Kiwi friends again soon".
4. Never, ever say "but we offered them presidential level security". Everyone knows what happened to the Sri Lankan cricketers and Benazir Bhutto, and if you tout your own security your guests will just laugh at you.
5. Never, ever say "but our intelligence services say there is no threat". That will simply attract private comments about Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban and provoke your guests further, and burn more bridges.
6. Above all, understand that having a Taliban government next door profoundly damages the status, stature, influence and power of Pakistan cricket. It's hard to imagine any one thing which could damage Pakistan cricket more.

One final comment. Any responses citing the Australian terrorist in Christchurch, or the Covid outbreak at India's Oval Test will only show that the writer has not addressed what I have put in this thread. It's actually not relevant, and it won't help Pakistan's cause.

what happened to President Musharaff, with all that super super President level security for the sitting president and chief of army staff, even he had to face the wrath,

Current chief, when he came under the barrage of being Ahmedi, even he was jittering and had to clarify his stance on the media

The only solution is to upgrade our stadiums with 5-stars hotels adjacent, it can be easily done In Qaddafi Stadium Lahore, possible even in some other centres,

we must encourage Bahria Karachi to complete their project ASAP, so that there is one less stress one less excuse for the foreign teams

 

[octavian]

Although I agree with the OP that Pakistan needs to re-build it's image and credibility with the West to get any serious consideration for future tours. But now that England have pulled out sighting "bubble-fatigue", it is clear that its not about security.

Pakistan can only join the table at ICC once it has changed it's identity to the point where it has night-clubs, open alcohol, women in bikinis at the beaches etc.

A tour to Pakistan is probably the most dreaded tour for any player of the western world, because of lack of social activities they can engage in.

The players don't want to tour Pakistan because its super boring. The government doesn't want to send its team because they don't want to do business with the Patriarchal, rabid mullahs of a country that they see Pakistan as.

So small wonder that tours don't happen.

The choice is simple, become a super feminist open society that the West wants Pakistan to be, or keep playing Zimbabwe, West Indies and maybe Bangla Desh and wither away.

 

[Energy]

Although I agree with the OP that Pakistan needs to re-build it's image and credibility with the West to get any serious consideration for future tours. But now that England have pulled out sighting "bubble-fatigue", it is clear that its not about security.

Pakistan can only join the table at ICC once it has changed it's identity to the point where it has night-clubs, open alcohol, women in bikinis at the beaches etc.

A tour to Pakistan is probably the most dreaded tour for any player of the western world, because of lack of social activities they can engage in.

The players don't want to tour Pakistan because its super boring. The government doesn't want to send its team because they don't want to do business with the Patriarchal, rabid mullahs of a country that they see Pakistan as.

So small wonder that tours don't happen.

The choice is simple, become a super feminist open society that the West wants Pakistan to be, or keep playing Zimbabwe, West Indies and maybe Bangla Desh and wither away.

If it's come down to this, then it is a shame. And gives an impression that cricketers from Eng, Aus, Ind, NZ are pampered and have more player power/union to pick and choose. It's not healthy for the sport in general but hardly anyone gives a toss about that as long as these 4 countries have their home seasons filled up and have the IPL and ICC events.

Seems like those days are gone for a cricketer to focus on cricket and put in the hard yards. Comfort zone soft daddies are on the rise.

 

[Robert]

Although I agree with the OP that Pakistan needs to re-build it's image and credibility with the West to get any serious consideration for future tours. But now that England have pulled out sighting "bubble-fatigue", it is clear that its not about security.

Pakistan can only join the table at ICC once it has changed it's identity to the point where it has night-clubs, open alcohol, women in bikinis at the beaches etc.

A tour to Pakistan is probably the most dreaded tour for any player of the western world, because of lack of social activities they can engage in.

The players don't want to tour Pakistan because its super boring. The government doesn't want to send its team because they don't want to do business with the Patriarchal, rabid mullahs of a country that they see Pakistan as.

So small wonder that tours don't happen.

The choice is simple, become a super feminist open society that the West wants Pakistan to be, or keep playing Zimbabwe, West Indies and maybe Bangla Desh and wither away.

I’d say a combination of factors. Nobody wants to go back into the bubble for months. But neither does anyone want to be in a team coach that gets machine-gunned like SL or in a bombed hotel like the Kiwis. Just the bubble is enough to worry about, without potential mortal threats.

 

[mastimasti]

I would like to emphasise at the outset that this thread is intended in a supportive way for Pakistan cricket. There will be none of my usual teasing/trolling, simply an attempt to explain to a Pakistani audience how the world has changed this last month, and how it affects them.

Rightly or wrongly, Pakistan is not in the Big Three. I showed in another thread that if bilateral ties and tours with India existed, the PCB would overtake Cricket Australia as the third richest Board. But that is not happening anytime soon.

In recent years there has been a reduction in domestic terrorism in Pakistan. You may or may not link that to non-Taliban rule in Afghanistan, but the bottom line is that touring Pakistan became safer, and aside from the Asian countries Zimbabwe, South Africa and - until Friday - New Zealand resumed touring the country.

Now we are at the point at which I need to make a few points you will not like.

1. Nobody gives the slightest consideration or respect to Pakistani claims of "Foolproof security".
The attack on the Sri Lankan team in Lahore ended that for a generation.

Just have to stop at point number 1....many many many people, I would say these number in the millions do give even the slightest consideration because this is what led to tours by the World XI, South Africa, Sri Lanka and hosting 2 (maybe 3) PSLs at home.

If no one cared than these tours would not have gone ahead

 

[The Scorer]

The OP has given us the political backdrop but I think the main reason for the cancellation is actually much more banal than that. Security has been used as convenient excuse, but in sense you cannot blame them for doing so.

We are now living in the age of Covid, what this means the players is immense pressure, lockdown's bubbles long periods away from their families.

We are living in the age of white ball leagues and an increasing amount of meaningless international white ball cricket and tours.

The England players gave the message to the ECB that they are at their limit, they are under enough pressure and they don't want the added complication of Pakistan and its security reputation, even though everything is now safe, the reputation just adds one added bit of stress which is the last thing they need in the age of Covid.

A pointless white ball tour, agreed to as some sort of favour in return for apparently Pakistan doing England some sort of favour by touring there at the start of the Covid pandemic. Doing a favour is a bad reason to organise a tour and will not be sustainable.

When things go back to normal when there are no more bubbles or lockdown's England and other countries will come to Pakistan especially if it's a proper Test series and not some meaningless white ball tournament. But no one-can say when this will be until then all Pakistan can do is to keep calm and carry on and do not destroy your good relationships with the ECB or the New Zealand boards who will want to continue to play Pakistan, and invite and play in their countries.

Pakistan are seen in England as one of the most attractive countries to come and tour because of the exciting nature of their players, the ground are packed to see them.

Because of the peculiar circumstances of Covid and knockdowns I think Pakistan should not exclude the possibility of playing matches abroad matches could be arranged in South Africa or England, but not on the dead patches of and lack atmosphere in the UAE This is the reality is teams and players will tour Pakistan, but at the moment they don't want to.