GLORY OF '92
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2007
- Runs
- 13,521
It's a tough one. I'd take Ponting in Australia or SA and Kohli everywhere else.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
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Ponting is a World Cup legend, Kohli is a WC failure.
How can you compare?
Let's see what Kohli can do in England WC.
If the two players were comparable in ODIs (for example Wasim vs McGrath), then I would definitely go by the WC record.
But in this case, Virat is so far ahead of Ponting as an ODI player that it becomes a very easy choice. Kohli for me.
Lol the bowlers ponting faced, the pitches he played on and all that.
If the two players were comparable in ODIs (for example Wasim vs McGrath), then I would definitely go by the WC record.
But in this case, Virat is so far ahead of Ponting as an ODI player that it becomes a very easy choice. Kohli for me.
Well he played a crucial knock in the 2011 final didn't he?
Tbf this is an unfair thread because you put WC as a condition. One is a WC legend and other is a ODI great in the making but just played 2 world cups so far and has at least a couple more potentially.
Obviously no one would pick Kohli over Ponting at this stage, so there isn't much discussion going to happen.
Perhaps a good place for few people to hate on Kohli now that he's sorted his test record.
By that logic players from 70s-80s are far better than Ponting "because the bowlers they faced, the pitches they played on and all that."
Lolwut
Reading your first para I would have bet money that were gonna pick Punter
Tbf this is an unfair thread because you put WC as a condition. One is a WC legend and other is a ODI great in the making but just played 2 world cups so far and has at least a couple more potentially.
Obviously no one would pick Kohli over Ponting at this stage, so there isn't much discussion going to happen.
Perhaps a good place for few people to hate on Kohli now that he's sorted his test record.
I said if the two players were comparable. But when it comes to Kohli and Ponting, there is no comparison. Kohli rivals the likes of Sachin and Viv, so he is a good distance ahead of Ponting.
Ponting just laughs at you with his three World Cup medals around his neck. And a man of the match in a final to top it off
90s -Mid 20s was just as best conditions for bowlers as ever has been in the history of the game. It's only after this period with the advent of T20s that 300+ scores and S/R became an average.
In Pontings era, the Odi bowlers were of calibre of Waqar, Wasim, Walsh, Ambrose, Donald, Mc Graph, Gillespie, Murali, Saqlain.
Who are the bowling equivalents of these players that Virat is facing in today's era?
When Australia scored 360 in 2003 Finals, India was virtually out of the match but today 360 has become a chaseable target, that's how low standards of batting have got thanks to flat pitches, oversized bats and mediocre Odi bowlers.
What is this obsession with World Cup medals? Did Ponting win them all?
If it is really so much about World Cups, then Nehra, Zaheer and Munaf would be chosen ahead of Waqar 10/10 times.
its a combination of things
Nehra, Munaf and to an extent zaheer's careers were bang on average for majority of their cricket playing careers.
out of curiosity why do you think Ponting wasnt a great ODI player?
its not like he is lacking in statistics.
You are putting words in my mouth here. I never said Ponting isn't an ODI great.
But what I do say is that when it comes to batting, Kohli is a league above Ponting.
WC and also finals? Too much restricted sample size. Lets see how many both have played what exactly they did.
Ponting played 4 WC finals.
1) 96 agsint SL - Scored 45, but it was slowest from any Aus batsman that day. SL comfortably chased it.
2) 99 agaisnt Pakistan - 24 runs so nothing to talk here
3) 2003 agasint India - A very good knock, but not to forget he came to bat at 105/1 in 13 overs. Indians were totally shatered by then and in that match. A top class knock.
4) 2007 agasint SL - Scored 37 runs in big total scored by Aus.
So Ponting played 4 WC finals with one gun knock.
--------
Kohli has played one WC final in his career so far.
1) scored 35 runs in a high scoring game.
Kohli has played 1 WC final with no gun knock.
I think it's meaningless to put WC final as criterion when total 5 innings have been played by both with one playing only 1 game. If I have to still pick then I will pick Ponting because he at least has one good knock despite sample size being not that great in this comparison.
how about WC knockout matches
ie QF, SF, Final
By that logic players from 70s-80s are far better than Ponting "because the bowlers they faced, the pitches they played on and all that."
how about WC knockout matches
ie QF, SF, Final
do explain the logic though to the question above
Logic is quite simple. Kohli rivals Viv, who is arguably a better ODI player than Sachin (who happens to be comfortably ahead of Ponting). You are underestimating Kohli quite a lot here.
I am not advocating for Kohli, as I believe that Ponting has been the better WC player.
But if you're talking of WC knockout matches, should you also not consider WT20 knock out matches? Same with T20 finals. WC finals and knockouts are mostly about being clutch, and the same holds true for T20 finals and knock outs too.
The quality of bowlers in 70s-80s-90s was more or less the same. The standards dropped after mid 2000s.
Their would always be doubts due to the quality of bowlers kohli has faced..not kohli's fault though. He cant travel to the past and prove his mettel against better bowlers.
Kohli is clearly a better t20 playerI am not advocating for Kohli, as I believe that Ponting has been the better WC player.
But if you're talking of WC knockout matches, should you also not consider WT20 knock out matches? Same with T20 finals. WC finals and knockouts are mostly about being clutch, and the same holds true for T20 finals and knock outs too.
Kohli is clearly a better t20 player
People who claim that Kohli is a World Cup failure and a choker etc. are kidding themselves. He was quite raw in 2011 but still played an important knock in the final; In 2015, he was not at his best in any format and the World Cup came at a wrong time for him. Still, he delivered in the most high pressure group match of the World Cup.
The way he has delivered in the World T20s as well as the CT Final, it is pretty obvious that he will eventually deliver World Cups knockouts as well - simply too good not to. If for some reason he doesn't, it will go against him and he will not be able to achieve the GOAT ODI batsman title.
However, I really do believe he will go further than Ponting not only in his ODI career but possibly overall as well, because he is only getting started in Tests now and could have a similar peak to Ponting's (2003-2007).
Keep all of that in mind, I will definitely take the current Kohli over Ponting. He can eclipse the likes of Tendulkar, Lara and Richards, who were all superior to Ponting who no doubt was a phenomenal player in his own right.
Compare averages of batsmen today to greats of yesterday.And is that proven? How?
There is no need for speculation when the evidence is in front of you. Two world cups is not a small sample by any means so we have enough of a sample set to make that call and not need to rely on speculative prediction.
No one cares about champions trophy so it's pointless bringing that up. The reasons people use to rate Kohli above Ponting are frankly senseless because those reasons are a function of the time and style of cricket being played than any argument on a batsmanship level
Also big lol at an 'important knock in final.'
You have the license to lol but it was an important knock. That partnership actually put India on track after losing Sehwag and Tendulkar early. Sure you can disregard it if it doesn't suit your narrative.
Punter is ahead for now but I think after 2019 world cup a more balanced answer can be given.
Kohli has already done better in Australia than what Punter did in India. So that's one thing he has in his favour. I think Kohli can surpass Ponting as a batsmen.
Who said Kohli can't surpass him as a batsman.
Especially in one days it is very possible.
But we are talking as of today. Kohli is still pretty close Ofcourse in one days but Ponting wins the contest easily
This is pretty ironic and frankly hilarious to see coming from you. It was little more than run of a mill knock which even he doesn't rate as much as you are rating it.
The die hard Kohli fans have never invoked it here ever either but props to you![]()
Citing Kohli's 2011 World Cup final knock in this context is the definition of clutching at straws!
Even Kohli doesn't rate it as much as our friend here..
I don't care how Kohli rates that innings. Yesterday he said that he is not as good as Root, Smith and Williamson, which is quite nonsense.
Kohli is media savvy and wants to keep a humble profile. His words/statements is not the best evidence.
A young raw batsman, stabilizing the innings in a World Cup final after the team has lost two huge wickets early on is enough evidence that he has what it takes to deliver in big moments when his time comes.
No one is equating it to Ponting's destruction in the 2003 Final. You are reading only what you want to read without considering the context.
50 matches.
In his fourth year of international cricket
5 centuries
50 average almost
Getting to play a WC on pitches he grew up on..
And he's raw
PS: I am not doubting his ability to deliver on big moments. I am just basing it of what has already happened. 2 WCs is a pretty fair sample size as most international cricketers dont get to play more than that many WCs even. He probably may fix that but its irrelevant here
I'm not rating that knock highly. What I'm saying is that at various stages in his career in various ICC tournaments, he has shown that he has the temperament and the guts to handle pressure.
Whether it was the World Cup final in 2011 when he was pretty raw and played an important innings or the rain-hit Champions Trophy final (which you don't care about), or the numerous WT20s, Kohli has shown that he has what it takes and it will be foolish to dismiss him from making it big in World Cups in the future.
As I said, if he doesn't, it will go against him, but we both know that the chances are very low that he won't deliver.
Besides, the past is not of paramount importance to me at the moment because he is developing as a batsman. Kohli is reaching a level that can potentially go beyond what Ponting has achieved in his career and he can surpass players like Tendulkar, Lara and Richards to name a few. All of them left Ponting in their dust.
Ponting so far has had the better career but it is difficult to ignore the long-term growth of Kohli and how far he can go. That's why I will pick him.
Besides, if you think that that no argument can be made for Kohli as a batsman in comparison to Ponting, you are either selling him short or overrating Ponting.
Ponting did not have a flawless career. He batted like a clown for the better part of his career in India and failed in more World Cup knockouts than he succeeded, but his team was so good that they got plenty of opportunities to rectify himself.
Kohli in many ways can be considered as Ponting's true heir. Indian fans like to consider him the second coming of Tendulkar but he is closer to Ponting. Similar batting style and the intent to carry the attack to the opposition. Kohli of today is very similar to Ponting of 2002-2003 if his current form is any indication, he can dominate the game over the next 4-5 years like Ponting did from 2003-2007.
He is yet to reach his peak years and is very, very close of overtaking Ponting as an ODI batsman. What he needs now is a big, iconic World Cup knockout innings and he will overtake him. That fact nullifies the argument that these two cannot be compared as batsmen. In Tests, let's see if he rectifies his failures in England in 2018 or will have to wait till the end of his career like Ponting had to do to improve his record in India.
I'd say that at the moment, there is enough evidence to go with the conclusion that unless something left field happens, Kohli will surpass Ponting as a batsman.
Calling Kohli raw in the 2011 WC is the biggest malarkey ever.
Yes it was his first WC.
But he wasnt some rookie thrown into the deep end with no preparation.
Kohli was the #3 ranked batsman in the world at start of the World Cup 2011 and had been playing internationals since 2008
Missed this post on my phone but its a nice summation and I agree with it (id swear it wasnt there earlier)
Ofcourse I dont disagree that he can definitely surpass Ponting and that based on his pressure knocks in other situations there is the likelihood he will deliver in a WC most likely.
But in the context of this thread which talks of what the players have achieved as of today, I will take Ponting because there is no need for speculation.
Even you agree in the post that riht now Ponting is ahead so I dont think there is much disagreement
Once again, that does not make him a finished article. It simply makes him a superb young batsman who still had a long way to go.
Starting your career well does not mean you are not raw. Was Tendulkar not raw when he smashed Hadlee on a green pitch at the age of 16? Of course he was, but he was just better than other players of his age.
Same is the case with Kohli, but please don't try to make him look a finished article because he had a very good start to his career.
Citing Kohli's 2011 World Cup final knock in this context is the definition of clutching at straws!
Even Kohli doesn't rate it as much as our friend here..
Kohli gets discussed way too much on PP considering Smith is better than him in atleast two formats of the game.
I would say a better thread would be Smith Vs Ponting and whom would i prefer to have in World cup final and answer would still be Ponting,only player ahead for me would be Bevan w.r.t ODI WCs.
Though that knock from Kohli is not better than Ponting's knock in WC, but that you are seriously underrating that knock. In fact, I think that even Indian fans tend to forget three knocks, which even though amount to a few runs, were so clutch, that I consider instrumental in India winning the WC.
Raina in QF against Aussies.
Raina in SF against Pakistan
Kohli in Final against SL
When Kohli came to bat, it was 30/2 after 5/6 overs. Had he departed early, leaving 50/3 after 11-12 overs, we would have struggled to win the game. Kohli set up the platform with Gambhir, allowing Dhoni to come and do his thing. It was a clutch innings, though not as good as Gambhir's or Dhoni's. But Clutch nonetheless.
Compare averages of batsmen today to greats of yesterday.
Insanely Higher strike rate, higher averages and higher total scores. Freebies like free hits and whatnot.
Higher S/R - I think the reason for this is T20. Are you suggesting if Mcgrath in his prime had played in this era, he'd still have an E/R of <4 and average in early 20s? If that is the case, we might as well never debate about who is the greatest ever because anything the batsman of this era do, they will always be discredited to not have played in the 90s-00s.
Higher Average - can be attributed to a lot of factors like flat pitches even in places which used to be challenging once. Thicker bat size, freebies like free hits you said not necessarily poor bowlers.
So one thing needs to be decided. There is an assertion that conditions heavily favour batsman these days, so lets just say Kohli, Root, Smith & others are never going to be good enough. But by the same logic does that make bowlers of this generation better than Wasim, Waqar, Mcgrath? Because everything is against them, pitches rules etc
It seems as though when comparison with yesteryear player happens, logic flies out of the window and a blanket rule is applied that if a player is from 90s, he is automatically better.![]()