Ricky Ponting or Virat Kohli, who would you prefer to have in a World Cup Final?

[GLORY OF '92]

It's a tough one. I'd take Ponting in Australia or SA and Kohli everywhere else.

Thoughts?

 

[Slog]

If were talking about peaks then I'd be highly shocked if anyone doesn't pick Ponting

Kohli hasn't done anything to suggest he can hack it in WC ODI knockouts. Obviously doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability and I do think it's just a coincidence but here the comparison is against a man who's been there and done that

 

[javiersuka]

Kohli is a very average player in WC's, why compare him with Ponting who was the best?

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Well Yes Ponting played a legendary knock in 2003 but Kohli in the next WC might match that.

 

[Hawkeye]

Ponting is a World Cup legend, Kohli is a WC failure.

How can you compare?

Let's see what Kohli can do in England WC.

 

[Sachin136]

The only difficult thing about playing in an ODI World Cup is the pressure you have to face. It isn't very different from a T20 WC or a match against your rivals.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Ponting is a World Cup legend, Kohli is a WC failure.

How can you compare?

Let's see what Kohli can do in England WC.

Well he played a crucial knock in the 2011 final didn't he?

 

[Madplayer]

Lol ricky ponting any day of the week and twice on sundays. The guy was a freak in world cups, a true match winners.

 

[Zak_Fan]

If the two players were comparable in ODIs (for example Wasim vs McGrath), then I would definitely go by the WC record.

But in this case, Virat is so far ahead of Ponting as an ODI player that it becomes a very easy choice. Kohli for me.

 

[anindo]

At this stage in Kohli's career, you have to go with Ponting. Ponting was as good a player as any that has played ODI cricket and has a phenomenal record in World Cups. For all his reputation as a chaser, Kohli went missing in the biggest World Cup match that he was playing as the leading batsman. However, he is a monster LOI batsman and am sure will set his World Cup record right as well at the next opportunity.

 

[Madplayer]

If the two players were comparable in ODIs (for example Wasim vs McGrath), then I would definitely go by the WC record.

But in this case, Virat is so far ahead of Ponting as an ODI player that it becomes a very easy choice. Kohli for me.

Lol the bowlers ponting faced, the pitches he played on and all that.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Kohli played a crucial role in both CT and 2011 WC final but Ponting's knock in 2003 stands out, he had a great platform set and all that but he just put India out of the game. So at this stage of Virat's career, he doesn't stand a chance vs Ponting when it comes to WC.

Lol the bowlers ponting faced, the pitches he played on and all that.

By that logic players from 70s-80s are far better than Ponting "because the bowlers they faced, the pitches they played on and all that."

 

[Slog]

If the two players were comparable in ODIs (for example Wasim vs McGrath), then I would definitely go by the WC record.

But in this case, Virat is so far ahead of Ponting as an ODI player that it becomes a very easy choice. Kohli for me.

Lolwut

Reading your first para I would have bet money that were gonna pick Punter

 

[Rafa]

Well he played a crucial knock in the 2011 final didn't he?

20s and 30s are crucial knocks now? How would you describe knocks by Gambhir and Dhoni then?

Kohli went missing in all matches of the WC India won and was the biggest underperformer of the WC winning Side.

He failed against Australia during the 2011 Quarters.

Failed against Pakistan at Mohali 2011.


And you compare him with Ponting. Lol.

Ponting lead from the front and won WCs for his team, Kohli hasn't even played much of a contribution in any WC Win where likes of Raina, Gambhir and Sehwag outperformed him with ease.

Failed at 2015 Semis against Australia too.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Tbf this is an unfair thread because you put WC as a condition. One is a WC legend and other is a ODI great in the making but just played 2 world cups so far and has at least a couple more potentially.

Obviously no one would pick Kohli over Ponting at this stage, so there isn't much discussion going to happen.

Perhaps a good place for few people to hate on Kohli now that he's sorted his test record.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Tbf this is an unfair thread because you put WC as a condition. One is a WC legend and other is a ODI great in the making but just played 2 world cups so far and has at least a couple more potentially.

Obviously no one would pick Kohli over Ponting at this stage, so there isn't much discussion going to happen.

Perhaps a good place for few people to hate on Kohli now that he's sorted his test record.

Not my intention.

My point is Kohli is an ODI great and more likely to succeed in a WC in Asia than Ponting.

 

[Rafa]

By that logic players from 70s-80s are far better than Ponting "because the bowlers they faced, the pitches they played on and all that."

90s -Mid 2000s was just as best conditions for bowlers as ever has been in the history of the game. It's only after this period with the advent of T20s that 300+ scores and S/R became an average.

In Pontings era, the Odi bowlers were of calibre of Waqar, Wasim, Walsh, Ambrose, Donald, Mc Graph, Gillespie, Murali, Saqlain.

Who are the bowling equivalents of these players that Virat is facing in today's era?

When Australia scored 360 in 2003 Finals, India was virtually out of the match but today 360 has become a chaseable target, that's how low standards of batting have got thanks to flat pitches, oversized bats and mediocre Odi bowlers.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Lolwut

Reading your first para I would have bet money that were gonna pick Punter

I said if the two players were comparable. But when it comes to Kohli and Ponting, there is no comparison. Kohli rivals the likes of Sachin and Viv, so he is a good distance ahead of Ponting.

 

[JaDed]

Kohli will appreciate him even being compared to Ponting right now.

 

[Slog]

Tbf this is an unfair thread because you put WC as a condition. One is a WC legend and other is a ODI great in the making but just played 2 world cups so far and has at least a couple more potentially.

Obviously no one would pick Kohli over Ponting at this stage, so there isn't much discussion going to happen.

Perhaps a good place for few people to hate on Kohli now that he's sorted his test record.

He's not sorted his test record

The major criticism is still valid

 

[King Kong]

Bearing in mind that, Kohli was the Man of the Series in two T20 WCs. What he did against Australia in the last T20WC was the stuff of legends. Single handedly took India to the final in WT2014 and to the semifinal in the last WT20. He got 50s in both of those matches though India lost.

It's just a matter of time for a player of his caliber to pull off that kind of stuff in ODI WC as well. Was a nobody in 2011 WC, but was part of some crucial partnerships. Did reasonably well despite being out of form leading to 2015 WC.

 

[Slog]

I said if the two players were comparable. But when it comes to Kohli and Ponting, there is no comparison. Kohli rivals the likes of Sachin and Viv, so he is a good distance ahead of Ponting.

Ponting just laughs at you with his three World Cup medals around his neck. And a man of the match in a final to top it off

 

[Zak_Fan]

Ponting just laughs at you with his three World Cup medals around his neck. And a man of the match in a final to top it off

What is this obsession with World Cup medals? Did Ponting win them all?

If it is really so much about World Cups, then Nehra, Zaheer and Munaf would be chosen ahead of Waqar 10/10 times.

 

[czar]

Forget Ponting, Kohli hasn't even gone past Tendulkar in Odi WCs.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

90s -Mid 20s was just as best conditions for bowlers as ever has been in the history of the game. It's only after this period with the advent of T20s that 300+ scores and S/R became an average.

Again blanket statement. Pitches back then used to be flat too. In fact 2003 WC final was a patta. India back then just sucked at chasing anything over 250, so 360 was never a shot. Scores have increased now, not because of pitches or poor bowling attack but because of advent of t20. Batsman have more shots now in their armoury and more willingness to take risk.

In Pontings era, the Odi bowlers were of calibre of Waqar, Wasim, Walsh, Ambrose, Donald, Mc Graph, Gillespie, Murali, Saqlain.

Who are the bowling equivalents of these players that Virat is facing in today's era?

Ponting took on the best of his era. Kohli is taking on the best of his era. Kohli owns Malinga one of the best ODI bowlers of his generation. Kohli has respectable records in all conditions. He can't go back in time to prove to finnicky people like you he is better now can he.

When Australia scored 360 in 2003 Finals, India was virtually out of the match but today 360 has become a chaseable target, that's how low standards of batting have got thanks to flat pitches, oversized bats and mediocre Odi bowlers.

Chasing 360 wasn't possible back then but scoring 300+ was on a good deck. So you are saying Ponting got lucky to bat first in the finals and his knock wasn't anything special? I see.

 

[Slog]

What is this obsession with World Cup medals? Did Ponting win them all?

If it is really so much about World Cups, then Nehra, Zaheer and Munaf would be chosen ahead of Waqar 10/10 times.

its a combination of things

Nehra, Munaf and to an extent zaheer's careers were bang on average for majority of their cricket playing careers.

out of curiosity why do you think Ponting wasnt a great ODI player?

its not like he is lacking in statistics.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=139678]Zak_Fan[/MENTION]

why do you think Ponting is not even in the same league as kohli>

im actually curious to understand your reasoning

 

[Zak_Fan]

its a combination of things

Nehra, Munaf and to an extent zaheer's careers were bang on average for majority of their cricket playing careers.

out of curiosity why do you think Ponting wasnt a great ODI player?

its not like he is lacking in statistics.

You are putting words in my mouth here. I never said Ponting isn't an ODI great.

But what I do say is that when it comes to batting, Kohli is a league above Ponting.

 

[Slog]

You are putting words in my mouth here. I never said Ponting isn't an ODI great.

But what I do say is that when it comes to batting, Kohli is a league above Ponting.

do explain the logic though to the question above

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Ricky Ponting.

 

[Slog]

Compared to his peers Ponting was far ahead

using simple stats to compare kohli and ponting is frankly, stupid.

 

[spade]

Ridiculous question really how can one compare Kohli with Ponting in WC's , Ponting is a legend and has performed when they were mighty and even when he was the last of the stars playing for Australia back in 2011, the playing conditions were stark to those of today and the quality of bowlers he faced can never be compared.

Kohli is yet to play a significant innings on the big stage perhaps from the next world cup he could be judged but even then he can never be compared to a legend like Ponting.

 

[Slog]

a lot of times you see ignoramus' say Ponting was a slow player and his 80 SR is testament to that

well it wasnt a case that Ponting couldnt bat at a higher SR (enough innings to show he can ) but the point was he didnt need to.

Scores were low overall due to tougher pitches and better bowlers

And importantly. He was always chasing low scores so he didnt even need to bat quickly considering the req run rate often was like 4-4.5 an over

 

[Buffet]

WC and also finals? Too much restricted sample size. Lets see how many both have played what exactly they did.

Ponting played 4 WC finals.

1) 96 agsint SL - Scored 45, but it was slowest from any Aus batsman that day. SL comfortably chased it.

2) 99 agaisnt Pakistan - 24 runs so nothing to talk here

3) 2003 agasint India - A very good knock, but not to forget he came to bat at 105/1 in 13 overs. Indians were totally shatered by then and in that match. A top class knock.

4) 2007 agasint SL - Scored 37 runs in big total scored by Aus.

So Ponting played 4 WC finals with one gun knock.

--------

Kohli has played one WC final in his career so far.

1) scored 35 runs in a high scoring game.

Kohli has played 1 WC final with no gun knock.

I think it's meaningless to put WC final as criterion when total 5 innings have been played by both with one playing only 1 game. If I have to still pick then I will pick Ponting because he at least has one good knock despite sample size being not that great in this comparison.

 

[Slog]

WC and also finals? Too much restricted sample size. Lets see how many both have played what exactly they did.

Ponting played 4 WC finals.

1) 96 agsint SL - Scored 45, but it was slowest from any Aus batsman that day. SL comfortably chased it.

2) 99 agaisnt Pakistan - 24 runs so nothing to talk here

3) 2003 agasint India - A very good knock, but not to forget he came to bat at 105/1 in 13 overs. Indians were totally shatered by then and in that match. A top class knock.

4) 2007 agasint SL - Scored 37 runs in big total scored by Aus.

So Ponting played 4 WC finals with one gun knock.

--------

Kohli has played one WC final in his career so far.

1) scored 35 runs in a high scoring game.

Kohli has played 1 WC final with no gun knock.

I think it's meaningless to put WC final as criterion when total 5 innings have been played by both with one playing only 1 game. If I have to still pick then I will pick Ponting because he at least has one good knock despite sample size being not that great in this comparison.

how about WC knockout matches

ie QF, SF, Final

 

[Sidilicious]

how about WC knockout matches

ie QF, SF, Final

I am not advocating for Kohli, as I believe that Ponting has been the better WC player.

But if you're talking of WC knockout matches, should you also not consider WT20 knock out matches? Same with T20 finals. WC finals and knockouts are mostly about being clutch, and the same holds true for T20 finals and knock outs too.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Punter.

 

[Madplayer]

By that logic players from 70s-80s are far better than Ponting "because the bowlers they faced, the pitches they played on and all that."

The quality of bowlers in 70s-80s-90s was more or less the same. The standards dropped after mid 2000s.

 

[Buffet]

how about WC knockout matches

ie QF, SF, Final

Clearly Ponting, He has two good knocks and Kohli has none so far. Sample size is not that small with total 15 matches between these two with Kohli with 5 matches.

 

[Zak_Fan]

do explain the logic though to the question above

Logic is quite simple. Kohli rivals Viv, who is arguably a better ODI player than Sachin (who happens to be comfortably ahead of Ponting). You are underestimating Kohli quite a lot here.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Actually, I find the thread quite absurd. Like Buffet said above, how many chances has Kohli had? As far as WC record goes, it is quite clear that Ponting is far ahead. So whats the point of asking?

 

[Madplayer]

Logic is quite simple. Kohli rivals Viv, who is arguably a better ODI player than Sachin (who happens to be comfortably ahead of Ponting). You are underestimating Kohli quite a lot here.

Their would always be doubts due to the quality of bowlers kohli has faced..not kohli's fault though. He cant travel to the past and prove his mettel against better bowlers.

 

[Buffet]

I am not advocating for Kohli, as I believe that Ponting has been the better WC player.

But if you're talking of WC knockout matches, should you also not consider WT20 knock out matches? Same with T20 finals. WC finals and knockouts are mostly about being clutch, and the same holds true for T20 finals and knock outs too.

I though we are talking about only ODI here. If you are including WT20 then answer is not so clear cut.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Kohli , because he does it his way whereas Punter piggybacked on the opening partnerships between behemoths Gilly and Haydos.

 

[Mamoon]

People who claim that Kohli is a World Cup failure and a choker etc. are kidding themselves. He was quite raw in 2011 but still played an important knock in the final; In 2015, he was not at his best in any format and the World Cup came at a wrong time for him. Still, he delivered in the most high pressure group match of the World Cup.

The way he has delivered in the World T20s as well as the CT Final, it is pretty obvious that he will eventually deliver World Cups knockouts as well - simply too good not to. If for some reason he doesn't, it will go against him and he will not be able to achieve the GOAT ODI batsman title.

However, I really do believe he will go further than Ponting not only in his ODI career but possibly overall as well, because he is only getting started in Tests now and could have a similar peak to Ponting's (2003-2007).

Keep all of that in mind, I will definitely take the current Kohli over Ponting. He can eclipse the likes of Tendulkar, Lara and Richards, who were all superior to Ponting who no doubt was a phenomenal player in his own right.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

The quality of bowlers in 70s-80s-90s was more or less the same. The standards dropped after mid 2000s.

And is that proven? How?

 

[Zak_Fan]

Their would always be doubts due to the quality of bowlers kohli has faced..not kohli's fault though. He cant travel to the past and prove his mettel against better bowlers.

Same argument can be used to undermine Ponting's great Test peak. But as you said, there is very little a batsman can do about it.

 

[Slog]

I am not advocating for Kohli, as I believe that Ponting has been the better WC player.

But if you're talking of WC knockout matches, should you also not consider WT20 knock out matches? Same with T20 finals. WC finals and knockouts are mostly about being clutch, and the same holds true for T20 finals and knock outs too.

Kohli is clearly a better t20 player

 

[Sidilicious]

Kohli is clearly a better t20 player

Again, IMHO even thats unfair because T20 was just hit and giggle cricket in Ricky Ponting's time.

When we compare LOIs (any form) for players from different eras, I would rather we look at the bigger picture including both forms, rather than just looking at that particular form of LOIs. Cricketers of different eras had different approach to the different forms.

 

[Dead Ball]

Wouldn't it be more sensible to have this debate after Kohli has finished his ODI career?

 

[Ab Fan]

Too early to make any comparison.

Also a lot will depend on the team they had.

 

[Slog]

People who claim that Kohli is a World Cup failure and a choker etc. are kidding themselves. He was quite raw in 2011 but still played an important knock in the final; In 2015, he was not at his best in any format and the World Cup came at a wrong time for him. Still, he delivered in the most high pressure group match of the World Cup.

The way he has delivered in the World T20s as well as the CT Final, it is pretty obvious that he will eventually deliver World Cups knockouts as well - simply too good not to. If for some reason he doesn't, it will go against him and he will not be able to achieve the GOAT ODI batsman title.

However, I really do believe he will go further than Ponting not only in his ODI career but possibly overall as well, because he is only getting started in Tests now and could have a similar peak to Ponting's (2003-2007).

Keep all of that in mind, I will definitely take the current Kohli over Ponting. He can eclipse the likes of Tendulkar, Lara and Richards, who were all superior to Ponting who no doubt was a phenomenal player in his own right.

There is no need for speculation when the evidence is in front of you. Two world cups is not a small sample by any means so we have enough of a sample set to make that call and not need to rely on speculative prediction.

No one cares about champions trophy so it's pointless bringing that up. The reasons people use to rate Kohli above Ponting are frankly senseless because those reasons are a function of the time and style of cricket being played than any argument on a batsmanship level

Also big lol at an 'important knock in final.'

 

[Slog]

Ponting really sweeps the floor with Kohli as far as world cups are concerned. It's not even funny

 

[Justcrazy]

This thread makes no sense at all.

Pointing had a team that won three successive WC , its not a joke.

 

[Slog]

And is that proven? How?

Compare averages of batsmen today to greats of yesterday.

Insanely Higher strike rate, higher averages and higher total scores. Freebies like free hits and whatnot.

 

[Mamoon]

There is no need for speculation when the evidence is in front of you. Two world cups is not a small sample by any means so we have enough of a sample set to make that call and not need to rely on speculative prediction.

No one cares about champions trophy so it's pointless bringing that up. The reasons people use to rate Kohli above Ponting are frankly senseless because those reasons are a function of the time and style of cricket being played than any argument on a batsmanship level

Also big lol at an 'important knock in final.'

You have the license to lol but it was an important knock. That partnership actually put India on track after losing Sehwag and Tendulkar early. Sure you can disregard it if it doesn't suit your narrative.

 

[Slog]

You have the license to lol but it was an important knock. That partnership actually put India on track after losing Sehwag and Tendulkar early. Sure you can disregard it if it doesn't suit your narrative.

This is pretty ironic and frankly hilarious to see coming from you. It was little more than run of a mill knock which even he doesn't rate as much as you are rating it.

The die hard Kohli fans have never invoked it here ever either but props to you

 

[Hasan123]

Punter is ahead for now but I think after 2019 world cup a more balanced answer can be given.

Kohli has already done better in Australia than what Punter did in India. So that's one thing he has in his favour. I think Kohli can surpass Ponting as a batsmen.

 

[Slog]

Citing Kohli's 2011 World Cup final knock in this context is the definition of clutching at straws!

Even Kohli doesn't rate it as much as our friend here..

 

[Slog]

Punter is ahead for now but I think after 2019 world cup a more balanced answer can be given.

Kohli has already done better in Australia than what Punter did in India. So that's one thing he has in his favour. I think Kohli can surpass Ponting as a batsmen.

Who said Kohli can't surpass him as a batsman.

Especially in one days it is very possible.

But we are talking as of today. Kohli is still pretty close Ofcourse in one days but Ponting wins the contest easily

 

[Hasan123]

Who said Kohli can't surpass him as a batsman.

Especially in one days it is very possible.

But we are talking as of today. Kohli is still pretty close Ofcourse in one days but Ponting wins the contest easily

No one has said he can't surpass him I'm just giving my opnion lol.

In odis if Kohli can dominate an icc tournament and keep up his consistency he will surpass Punter in odis.

 

[Mamoon]

This is pretty ironic and frankly hilarious to see coming from you. It was little more than run of a mill knock which even he doesn't rate as much as you are rating it.

The die hard Kohli fans have never invoked it here ever either but props to you

I'm not rating that knock highly. What I'm saying is that at various stages in his career in various ICC tournaments, he has shown that he has the temperament and the guts to handle pressure.

Whether it was the World Cup final in 2011 when he was pretty raw and played an important innings or the rain-hit Champions Trophy final (which you don't care about), or the numerous WT20s, Kohli has shown that he has what it takes and it will be foolish to dismiss him from making it big in World Cups in the future.

As I said, if he doesn't, it will go against him, but we both know that the chances are very low that he won't deliver.

Besides, the past is not of paramount importance to me at the moment because he is developing as a batsman. Kohli is reaching a level that can potentially go beyond what Ponting has achieved in his career and he can surpass players like Tendulkar, Lara and Richards to name a few. All of them left Ponting in their dust.

Ponting so far has had the better career but it is difficult to ignore the long-term growth of Kohli and how far he can go. That's why I will pick him.

Besides, if you think that that no argument can be made for Kohli as a batsman in comparison to Ponting, you are either selling him short or overrating Ponting.

Ponting did not have a flawless career. He batted like a clown for the better part of his career in India and failed in more World Cup knockouts than he succeeded, but his team was so good that they got plenty of opportunities to rectify himself.

Kohli in many ways can be considered as Ponting's true heir. Indian fans like to consider him the second coming of Tendulkar but he is closer to Ponting. Similar batting style and the intent to carry the attack to the opposition. Kohli of today is very similar to Ponting of 2002-2003 if his current form is any indication, he can dominate the game over the next 4-5 years like Ponting did from 2003-2007.

He is yet to reach his peak years and is very, very close of overtaking Ponting as an ODI batsman. What he needs now is a big, iconic World Cup knockout innings and he will overtake him. That fact nullifies the argument that these two cannot be compared as batsmen. In Tests, let's see if he rectifies his failures in England in 2018 or will have to wait till the end of his career like Ponting had to do to improve his record in India.

I'd say that at the moment, there is enough evidence to go with the conclusion that unless something left field happens, Kohli will surpass Ponting as a batsman.

 

[Mamoon]

Citing Kohli's 2011 World Cup final knock in this context is the definition of clutching at straws!

Even Kohli doesn't rate it as much as our friend here..

I don't care how Kohli rates that innings. Yesterday he said that he is not as good as Root, Smith and Williamson, which is quite nonsense.

Kohli is media savvy and wants to keep a humble profile. His words/statements is not the best evidence.

A young raw batsman, stabilizing the innings in a World Cup final after the team has lost two huge wickets early on is enough evidence that he has what it takes to deliver in big moments when his time comes.

No one is equating it to Ponting's destruction in the 2003 Final. You are reading only what you want to read without considering the context.

 

[Slog]

Also its frankly very disingenuous to claim that Kohli was raw in the 2011 WC.

Yes it was his first WC but since when are we in a world where players get a by for their first WC?

Going into the 2011 WC, Kohli was in/around his FOURTH year of international cricket as his debut was in 2008.

He had played closr to 50 matches and racked up 5-6 centuries at an average close to 50.

And he was getting the rare opportunity to play his first WC on pitches he had grown up playing in.

The excuses you see made to explain away Kohli's first of his two average WCs are ridiculous. You would think he was some 18 year old plucked out of obscurity and thrown into a WC at 2 weeks notice.

Kohli was well on his way to establishing himself in the ODI format and in the rankings was actually fairly high (top 10 ifim not wrong). There is no reason to call him 'raw' or make excuses for a mediocre first WC

 

[Slog]

I don't care how Kohli rates that innings. Yesterday he said that he is not as good as Root, Smith and Williamson, which is quite nonsense.

Kohli is media savvy and wants to keep a humble profile. His words/statements is not the best evidence.

A young raw batsman, stabilizing the innings in a World Cup final after the team has lost two huge wickets early on is enough evidence that he has what it takes to deliver in big moments when his time comes.

No one is equating it to Ponting's destruction in the 2003 Final. You are reading only what you want to read without considering the context.

50 matches.

In his fourth year of international cricket

5 centuries

50 average almost

Getting to play a WC on pitches he grew up on..


And he's raw


PS: I am not doubting his ability to deliver on big moments. I am just basing it of what has already happened. 2 WCs is a pretty fair sample size as most international cricketers dont get to play more than that many WCs even. He probably may fix that but its irrelevant here

 

[Slog]

Calling Kohli raw in the 2011 WC is the biggest malarkey ever.

Yes it was his first WC.

But he wasnt some rookie thrown into the deep end with no preparation.

Kohli was the #3 ranked batsman in the world at start of the World Cup 2011 and had been playing internationals since 2008

 

[Mamoon]

50 matches.

In his fourth year of international cricket

5 centuries

50 average almost

Getting to play a WC on pitches he grew up on..


And he's raw


PS: I am not doubting his ability to deliver on big moments. I am just basing it of what has already happened. 2 WCs is a pretty fair sample size as most international cricketers dont get to play more than that many WCs even. He probably may fix that but its irrelevant here

The fact that he averaged 50 and had 5 hundreds already is testament to his ability as a batsman. That does not make him a finished article because he was still raw. He had plenty of shortcomings which is what you expect from a young player.

If Babar Azam plays in a World Cup in the UAE tomorrow and does not steal the show, will you hold it against him because he averages 50+ and has scored multiple hundreds on UAE pitches? No you won't, because you can't put unrealistic expectations on a young player.

You are probably unaware of the fact that Ponting himself was average for his first two World Cups and if PakPassion existed at that time, he would have been brushed off as a World Cup failure.

A player can only be considered a World Cup failure if he fails multiple World Cups in his peak. Amla is a prime example of a World Cup failure.

Essentially your argument is that Ponting has already done it and Kohli hasn't, and it is a fine argument, but I personally find it difficult to ignore Kohli's potential to deliver, because it is very obvious to me that he will eventually in do in World Cups what he has done in the World T20s, and when he does I will have to revise my opinion because I have little doubt that Kohli will surpass Ponting as a batsman overall.

Thus, that is why I am going with Kohli now with the caveat that should he fail to deliver in the 2019 and the 2023 World Cups, it will count against him.



He made his debut in 2008 but he was not established until 2009-2010, and it was the first ICC tournament of his career. His contribution was more than decent enough for a 20-21 year old batsman playing in his first World Cup.

 

[Slog]

I'm not rating that knock highly. What I'm saying is that at various stages in his career in various ICC tournaments, he has shown that he has the temperament and the guts to handle pressure.

Whether it was the World Cup final in 2011 when he was pretty raw and played an important innings or the rain-hit Champions Trophy final (which you don't care about), or the numerous WT20s, Kohli has shown that he has what it takes and it will be foolish to dismiss him from making it big in World Cups in the future.

As I said, if he doesn't, it will go against him, but we both know that the chances are very low that he won't deliver.

Besides, the past is not of paramount importance to me at the moment because he is developing as a batsman. Kohli is reaching a level that can potentially go beyond what Ponting has achieved in his career and he can surpass players like Tendulkar, Lara and Richards to name a few. All of them left Ponting in their dust.

Ponting so far has had the better career but it is difficult to ignore the long-term growth of Kohli and how far he can go. That's why I will pick him.

Besides, if you think that that no argument can be made for Kohli as a batsman in comparison to Ponting, you are either selling him short or overrating Ponting.

Ponting did not have a flawless career. He batted like a clown for the better part of his career in India and failed in more World Cup knockouts than he succeeded, but his team was so good that they got plenty of opportunities to rectify himself.

Kohli in many ways can be considered as Ponting's true heir. Indian fans like to consider him the second coming of Tendulkar but he is closer to Ponting. Similar batting style and the intent to carry the attack to the opposition. Kohli of today is very similar to Ponting of 2002-2003 if his current form is any indication, he can dominate the game over the next 4-5 years like Ponting did from 2003-2007.

He is yet to reach his peak years and is very, very close of overtaking Ponting as an ODI batsman. What he needs now is a big, iconic World Cup knockout innings and he will overtake him. That fact nullifies the argument that these two cannot be compared as batsmen. In Tests, let's see if he rectifies his failures in England in 2018 or will have to wait till the end of his career like Ponting had to do to improve his record in India.

I'd say that at the moment, there is enough evidence to go with the conclusion that unless something left field happens, Kohli will surpass Ponting as a batsman.

Missed this post on my phone but its a nice summation and I agree with it (id swear it wasnt there earlier )

Ofcourse I dont disagree that he can definitely surpass Ponting and that based on his pressure knocks in other situations there is the likelihood he will deliver in a WC most likely.

But in the context of this thread which talks of what the players have achieved as of today, I will take Ponting because there is no need for speculation.

Even you agree in the post that riht now Ponting is ahead so I dont think there is much disagreement

 

[Mamoon]

Calling Kohli raw in the 2011 WC is the biggest malarkey ever.

Yes it was his first WC.

But he wasnt some rookie thrown into the deep end with no preparation.

Kohli was the #3 ranked batsman in the world at start of the World Cup 2011 and had been playing internationals since 2008

Once again, that does not make him a finished article. It simply makes him a superb young batsman who still had a long way to go.

Starting your career well does not mean you are not raw. Was Tendulkar not raw when he smashed Hadlee on a green pitch at the age of 16? Of course he was, but he was just better than other players of his age.

Same is the case with Kohli, but please don't try to make him look a finished article because he had a very good start to his career.

 

[Mamoon]

Missed this post on my phone but its a nice summation and I agree with it (id swear it wasnt there earlier )

Ofcourse I dont disagree that he can definitely surpass Ponting and that based on his pressure knocks in other situations there is the likelihood he will deliver in a WC most likely.

But in the context of this thread which talks of what the players have achieved as of today, I will take Ponting because there is no need for speculation.

Even you agree in the post that riht now Ponting is ahead so I dont think there is much disagreement

If you insist that I should not speculate, then Ponting it is, but as I said, it is difficult not to speculate keeping Kohli's potential in mind.

Anyways.

 

[TestMatch]

Slight edge to Ponting. Kohli will get there soon, though.

 

[Slog]

Once again, that does not make him a finished article. It simply makes him a superb young batsman who still had a long way to go.

Starting your career well does not mean you are not raw. Was Tendulkar not raw when he smashed Hadlee on a green pitch at the age of 16? Of course he was, but he was just better than other players of his age.

Same is the case with Kohli, but please don't try to make him look a finished article because he had a very good start to his career.

He was at a stage of his career where it was reasonable to expect him to have delivered more than he did in that WC. (Home WC as #3 ranked batsman). So the relative failure will be held against him no matter how much it is disregarded. Ofcourse if he delivers in 2019 WC, it wouldnt make sense to keep pointing to this one but you cant just totally erase it.

I am not calling him finished article by any means. Even right now he is improving every season.

 

[JaDed]

Kohli gets discussed way too much on PP considering Smith is better than him in atleast two formats of the game.
I would say a better thread would be Smith Vs Ponting and whom would i prefer to have in World cup final and answer would still be Ponting,only player ahead for me would be Bevan w.r.t ODI WCs.

 

[Sidilicious]

Citing Kohli's 2011 World Cup final knock in this context is the definition of clutching at straws!

Even Kohli doesn't rate it as much as our friend here..

Though that knock from Kohli is not better than Ponting's knock in WC, but that you are seriously underrating that knock. In fact, I think that even Indian fans tend to forget three knocks, which even though amount to a few runs, were so clutch, that I consider instrumental in India winning the WC.

Raina in QF against Aussies.
Raina in SF against Pakistan
Kohli in Final against SL

When Kohli came to bat, it was 30/2 after 5/6 overs. Had he departed early, leaving 50/3 after 11-12 overs, we would have struggled to win the game. Kohli set up the platform with Gambhir, allowing Dhoni to come and do his thing. It was a clutch innings, though not as good as Gambhir's or Dhoni's. But Clutch nonetheless.

 

[Sidilicious]

Kohli gets discussed way too much on PP considering Smith is better than him in atleast two formats of the game.
I would say a better thread would be Smith Vs Ponting and whom would i prefer to have in World cup final and answer would still be Ponting,only player ahead for me would be Bevan w.r.t ODI WCs.

two formats? I'd say only tests.

 

[Slog]

Though that knock from Kohli is not better than Ponting's knock in WC, but that you are seriously underrating that knock. In fact, I think that even Indian fans tend to forget three knocks, which even though amount to a few runs, were so clutch, that I consider instrumental in India winning the WC.

Raina in QF against Aussies.
Raina in SF against Pakistan
Kohli in Final against SL

When Kohli came to bat, it was 30/2 after 5/6 overs. Had he departed early, leaving 50/3 after 11-12 overs, we would have struggled to win the game. Kohli set up the platform with Gambhir, allowing Dhoni to come and do his thing. It was a clutch innings, though not as good as Gambhir's or Dhoni's. But Clutch nonetheless.

yes but it was prolly the 5th or 6th best innings in the final

ofcourse it has its worth and actually may have sentimental value due to being a WC but not much more than that. Kohli actually batted at a very slow rate and when he got out the run rate had crept up really really high eventhough the target had been subpar

all wc campaigns or any successful tournament will have such knocks.

 

[czar]

Rainas knocks against Australia and Pakistan albeit small but were very clutch knocks.

Raina came in at a time of trouble and took the team to safety / victory in both matches. His knocks against Australia and Pakistan were as good as any one in that innings. It was a Bevanesque knock in both matches.

Hilarious to compare them with the one played by Virat in the finals, joke and insult to classify it as some clutch knock. The knock has no standing in comparison to one played by Gambhir and Dhoni's, that's just shows how least valuable it was. Even after he was dismissed, India were deep in trouble. It was Gambhir who continued to hold one end and MSD joined him.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Compare averages of batsmen today to greats of yesterday.

Insanely Higher strike rate, higher averages and higher total scores. Freebies like free hits and whatnot.

Higher S/R - I think the reason for this is T20. Are you suggesting if Mcgrath in his prime had played in this era, he'd still have an E/R of <4 and average in early 20s? If that is the case, we might as well never debate about who is the greatest ever because anything the batsman of this era do, they will always be discredited to not have played in the 90s-00s.

Higher Average - can be attributed to a lot of factors like flat pitches even in places which used to be challenging once. Thicker bat size, freebies like free hits you said not necessarily poor bowlers.


So one thing needs to be decided. There is an assertion that conditions heavily favour batsman these days, so lets just say Kohli, Root, Smith & others are never going to be good enough. But by the same logic does that make bowlers of this generation better than Wasim, Waqar, Mcgrath? Because everything is against them, pitches rules etc

It seems as though when comparison with yesteryear player happens, logic flies out of the window and a blanket rule is applied that if a player is from 90s, he is automatically better.

 

[Mamoon]

Higher S/R - I think the reason for this is T20. Are you suggesting if Mcgrath in his prime had played in this era, he'd still have an E/R of <4 and average in early 20s? If that is the case, we might as well never debate about who is the greatest ever because anything the batsman of this era do, they will always be discredited to not have played in the 90s-00s.

Higher Average - can be attributed to a lot of factors like flat pitches even in places which used to be challenging once. Thicker bat size, freebies like free hits you said not necessarily poor bowlers.


So one thing needs to be decided. There is an assertion that conditions heavily favour batsman these days, so lets just say Kohli, Root, Smith & others are never going to be good enough. But by the same logic does that make bowlers of this generation better than Wasim, Waqar, Mcgrath? Because everything is against them, pitches rules etc

It seems as though when comparison with yesteryear player happens, logic flies out of the window and a blanket rule is applied that if a player is from 90s, he is automatically better.

This fallacy is always there when people underrated the present to glorify the past. If the modern day batsmen are lucky to be playing in an era of flat wickets, short boundaries and big bats, then modern day bowlers are also unlucky to be playing in this era.

However, the counter-argument is that in this era, the quality of bowling is low as well. Basically any excuse fits that makes the modern day batsmen look like tail-enders compared to the legends of the past.

 

[Speedster777]

Ricky Ponting hands down!!! Kohli is yet to prove himself in bowler friendly conditions. He doesn't have the charisma of Ponting.