Rise of Hindu ‘extremist’ spooks Muslim minority in India’s heartland

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/26/modis-man-flexes-muscular-hinduism-shock-election

Rise of Hindu ‘extremist’ spooks Muslim minority in India’s heartland
In Gorakhpur, the power base of a firebrand monk, religious tension grows with Uttar Pradesh’s 40 million Muslims

Supporters of the BJP celebrate a stunning election victory in Uttar Pradesh.

Supporters of the BJP celebrate a stunning election victory in Uttar Pradesh. Photograph: Chandan Khanna/AFP/Getty Images
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Michael Safi in Gorakhpur [MENTION=142053]Safi[/MENTION]michael
Saturday 25 March 2017 20.02 EDT Last modified on Sunday 26 March 2017 05.00 EDT

Pastor Ritesh Joshua had just called a tea break when he saw the men in the saffron scarves. More than a hundred, some wielding sticks, had massed outside his white stucco church on the outskirts of Gorakhpur, a temple town in eastern Uttar Pradesh. It was three days after Christmas.

“They started shouting, ‘You are converting people. We will not allow any conversions here’,” he says. “They shoved people, turned over furniture, and told me, ‘You are the main culprit’.”

The men, allegedly part of a religious activist group called the Hindu Yuva Vahini, cornered one of the parishioners. Smartphone footage shows the woman pulling her blue shawl tightly around herself as she answers questions about her involvement with the church. “No one is forcing me to convert,” she insists.


“If the police hadn’t arrived, we don’t know what would have happened next,” Joshua says. “After the men left, everyone in the church was silent, so frightened. This is a time of testing for us.”

Last week, the monk who founded the HYV, and whose firebrand Hindu supremacist vision guides the organisation, was selected by the party of prime minister Narendra Modi to lead the most populous state in India – the equivalent of the sixth largest nation on earth.

Yogi Adityanath’s appointment as chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, about a fifth of whose 200 million people are Muslim, is “stunning”, says Milan Vaishnav, at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a foreign policy thinktank. “He is an extremist in terms of his speeches, a very proud rabble-rouser, and somebody who doesn’t have a claim to fame other than a dedication to a strident form of Hindu nationalism.”

“It is an important and disturbing moment,” agrees Ramachandra Guha, an author and historian. “It is the fringe moving to the mainstream.”


The boyish face of Adityanath, 44, beamed down on Gorakhpur last week from thousands of green-and-saffron banners plastered along its main road. On Sunday, tens of thousands of people are expected to line the road for his triumphant return to Gorakhpur, the electorate he has represented for almost two decades in the Uttar Pradesh parliament.

Another addition to the city streets last week were squads of police officers hunting so-called “Romeos”. Along with a ban on buffalo slaughter, cracking down on amorous young men was a key campaign promise of the ruling Bharatiya Janata party. Officially, the police are targeting “Eve-teasing”, the endemic sexual harassment that blights some Indian streets. But critics instead see a crackdown on mixed-religion couples, in line with Adityanath’s fevered, baseless warnings that Muslim men are trying to seduce Hindu women as part of “love jihad”.

Yogi Adityanath, the hardline Hindu leader, prepares to meet party leaders.
Yogi Adityanath, the hardline Hindu leader, prepares to meet party leaders. Photograph: Manish Swarup/AP
The surprise appointment of Adityanath to run the state has deeply rattled Manoj Singh, a Gorakhpur journalist who has spent the last two decades tracking the new chief minister and the HYV men he labels a “private army”. He recalls, 10 years ago, when the city boiled with religious tension after the murder of a Hindu man, and Adityanath rose to address a crowd of HYV supporters outside the Gorakhpur railway station.


“We cannot tolerate such incidents any more,” he told the men. “It has crossed all limits. If someone sets ablaze the houses and shops of Hindus, then I do not think that someone stops you from doing such things.

“Get ready for a final battle,” he says. Court documents allege Adityanath’s followers then went on a rampage, burning Muslim-owned properties and an Islamic mausoleum. “I saw the burned shops,” Singh says. “I saw the Muslim men who ran the shops trying to douse the fire. I knew one of the shopkeepers. He was very emotional. He said, ‘Look what has happened to me. I’m ruined’.”

Adityanath was arrested and imprisoned for 11 days. He broke down in parliament recalling the ordeal. But, Singh says, his fiery rhetoric was unchanged. “If [Muslims] kill one Hindu man, then we will kill 100 Muslim men,” he has said since. But Adityanath began to distance himself from frontline violence. “He took a political turn,” Singh says. “He started having political dreams.”

Hinduism is a poor soil for fundamentalists such as Adityanath to grow. The world’s third most-practised religion has no pope, no mandatory scripture, no impulse to convert new believers. The caste system has sown division deep into its DNA. Wherever Hinduism has taken and flourished across Asia it has blended with and infused local cultures, forming what author Sunil Khilnani has called a “bewildering internal pluralism”.


It was contact with more rigid doctrines, first the Islam of the Mughals, then the Christianity of the British, that first planted the seeds of political Hinduism. They grew with demands for Indian independence, as those who sought freedom for the extraordinarily diverse subcontinent grappled with the question: what was an Indian, anyway?

Jawarharlal Nehru, India’s first prime minister, opted for the broadest possible answer. The India his Congress party advocated was, he wrote, proudly plural: “An ancient palimpsest on which layer upon layer of thought and reverie had been inscribed, and yet no succeeding layer had completely hidden or erased what had been written previously”.

But Hindu nationalists such as Vinayak Savarkar, discerned in the countless communities that populated modern-day India, Pakistan and Bangladesh an essential “Hindutva”, or Hindu-ness, that persisted no matter what faith an Indian practised.

“Religious minorities will all have the right to practise their religion”, Savarkar wrote of the India he envisioned – but they were inescapably citizens of a Hindu “rashtra”, or nation.


“This vision of Indian history is one of victimhood,” says Guha. “That Hindus were first persecuted by the Muslims, then the British, and they can only recover when they repudiate all that is Muslim and British in their past.”

The elevation of Adityanath is part of that “old battle between the Congress and the rightwing Hindu parties”, he says. For the first 40 years after independence, Hindu nationalists struggled to summon more than 10% of the national vote. But their appeal has surged in the past quarter-century, culminating in the election three years ago of Modi, the staunchest Hindutva flag bearer ever to occupy the prime minister’s residence.

Other than Modi’s political talents, Guha says the growth of Hindu nationalism is partly down to poor leadership in the Congress party, whose most prominent leader is Nehru’s great-grandson, Rahul Gandhi.

“But it is also part of a regional and global phenomenon of religious nationalism. You see it now in Turkey, and in our neighbourhood, with Pakistan and Bangladesh. There are parallels with Sri Lanka. And even in America, when George Bush said Jesus was his favourite philosopher,You can’t blame Rahul Gandhi for everything,” he says.


Modi was briefly an international pariah over his Gujarat state government’s alleged role in ignoring, and possibly abetting, deadly Hindu-Muslim riots in the state in 2002. But he assiduously reinvented his image in the decade before winning power in 2014, projecting himself as a pro-business, Apple Watch-sporting statesman obsessed with economic development.

In power, Modi has been coy about his Hindu nationalist agenda, prioritising issues such as tax reform and corruption crackdowns over the national ban on cow slaughter his party championed on the campaign trail.

With the selection of Adityanath, “the veil has been lifted”, says Vaishnav, from the Carnegie Endowment. “It answers one of the questions that we had about Modi all along,” he says. “Is this guy’s project about development or Hindu nationalism? What this pick reaffirms is that it’s not an either/or question. He has two faces: one is Modi the great economic moderniser, and the other is one of muscular nationalism – and Adit is its starkest manifestation,” he says.

Yogi Adityanath, left, with the party president Amit Shah in Delhi.
Yogi Adityanath, left, with the party president Amit Shah in Delhi. Photograph: Rajat Gupta/EPA
In Zafara Bazar, a Muslim district of Gorakhpur, Gulshan Ali is talking bitterly near the butcher shop where he worked until last Monday: “They talked about ‘development for all’, but the moment Adityanath became chief minister he started taking away our jobs,” he says. That was when – less than 24 hours after Adityanath was sworn in – police officers told him the business was being shut. “We didn’t get any notice,” another butcher, Jawad Ali, says. He pleaded that his shop sold only buffalo, not the cow meat that many Hindus eschew. “But they told me, ‘From today, your business is closed’.”


A thick blanket now hangs over Jawad Ali’s shopfront, and he passes his days with other out-of-work butchers reading the newspaper and gossiping darkly about what might be coming next. “For several generations we’ve been butchers,” he says. He admits he has been operating his shop unlicensed for the 15 years – but not for lack of trying. “Since 2002 the government stopped renewing meat licences because of Yogi Adityanath and his movement,” he says.

A previous government, one that relied on Muslim votes to hold office, worked out a compromise between its voter base and the growing clamour to ban cow and buffalo meat in the state: butchers such as Ali would be denied licences, but allowed to continue running their businesses.

The bargain held until Adityanath’s unexpected ascension. The crackdown on butchers has left up to 2,500 families in Gorakhpur without an income.


Heightening their frustration is that India is the world’s largest exporter of buffalo meat, with most of the companies run by Hindus who see no clash with their beliefs. “Here they’ve found a new god in buffalo,” one of the meat-workers mutters.

The chief preoccupation for many Muslims in the city is what comes next for the HYV. A few kilometres from Zafar Bazar is the resplendent Gorakhnath Mutt, a campus of ornate, chalky white temples interspersed with manmade ponds and patches of yellow and saffron marigolds.

The temple, which Adityanath oversees as chief priest, was buzzing this week with political officials and HYV men basking in the glow of their leader’s sudden promotion. “You talk to many Muslims, in and around the campus here, they all appreciate that Yogi Adityanath has become chief minister,” says Pramod Kumar Mall, the officer in charge of the HYV.

The role of the HYV, now that its leader is the most powerful man in Uttar Pradesh, will not change, says HYV officer Pramod Kumar Mall. “We are working for the nationalist movement. We don’t want this country to disintegrate. There are so many movements who want to disintegrate the system, and we want to stop them and make people understand about it,” he says.

He will definitely favour Hindus over Muslims ... this is what he has been since the beginning
Wijahat Kareem
Regrettably, he says, there are “many” Muslims in the country working against Indian interests. “Just as President Trump has found so many, in India you will find so many.” But he is adamant that minorities in the state have nothing to fear from Adityanath’s rule. “This country belongs to them,” he says. “[As long as] they feel they are citizens of this country and feel they should respect the national religion – just as Hinduism has accepted many religions.”

Despite Mall’s assurances, Muslim community leaders in Gorakhpur are well aware of the new reality in their state. Over tea at his home, surgeon Wijahat Kareem, 62, describes his own political philosophy as “Gandhian”. “But Gandhi is losing his sheen,” he says. He chooses his words carefully. “You cannot change his heart,” he says of the new chief minister. “He will definitely favour Hindus over Muslims, but we can’t complain. This is what he has been since the beginning. You know with whom you are talking But there is hope that because of his past record he will be more cautious, more liberal than he was earlier on,” he says.

Hope, he concedes, is all Uttar Pradesh’s Muslims have left to rely on. “Politicians cannot win on the basis of Muslim votes,” he says. “So we have to keep believing in the right-thinking Hindus. That’s what we are all hoping for. Our staying in the mainstream of the country depends on them.”

He insists, repeatedly, that he is “not concerned”. But as he goes to say goodbye he pauses in the door frame. For a moment he is silent. “Let us pray for the Muslims of Gorakhpur,” he finally says. “Even if Yogi is harming Muslims in other parts of the country, he won’t do anything to Muslims in Gorakhpur. Of that I’m very sure.”
 
^ ERRrrr NO. 800 million plus hindu majority wont ever let an inch of the country be divided again. Loongg gone are lala world which Gandhi/Nehru/Jinnah lived in..
 
Yes the rise of Hindu terrorism is a major concern for the entire region in particular the Muslim's of India who are constantly under threat. It is for those Hindu's who cry "secularism" with every breath to do something about it otherwise things will only get worse.
 
Hindu extremism is very much resorted to certain part of India unlike Islamic extremism. Hindu extremists half the time don't even believe the existence of god, they just go ape over everything.
 
Hindu extremism is very much resorted to certain part of India unlike Islamic extremism. Hindu extremists half the time don't even believe the existence of god, they just go ape over everything.

What they call "Hindu extremism" is actually just a milder version of your typical Islamic society. Many of these "extremist" RSS and BJP politicians have their sons or daughters married to Muslim partners. I doubt vice versa will be the case in even the most progressive Islamic societies.
 
This article is asking the question will India be divided again?

https://jang.com.pk/print/289015-dr-khalid-javed-jan-column-2017-03-27-kia-bharat-phir-taqseem-hoga

Remember not respecting minority rights get India divided before and it may happen again if minority rights are still not respected

LOL that will never happen. Hindu extremism is resorted to certain places, especially in places where there are less than 5% of muslims. Hindu extremists have no power to expand their ideology away from small parts of Gujarat, Mumbai and Uttar Pradesh. Most Indians aren't even religious at all and half the muslim/hindu clash starts without the knowledge of each other's religion. Two people get into verbal altercations, later someone finds out one is a muslim and the other is a hindu and then rumours starts spreading. Partition was due to the influence of British and there is no way that 3rd world countries like India or Pakistan will split. Our politicians, military and even own citizens don't care how many people die they are just worried about their ego.
 
What they call "Hindu extremism" is actually just a milder version of your typical Islamic society. Many of these "extremist" RSS and BJP politicians have their sons or daughters married to Muslim partners. I doubt vice versa will be the case in even the most progressive Islamic societies.

Not true at all. They will never let that happen.
 
Yes the rise of Hindu terrorism is a major concern for the entire region in particular the Muslim's of India who are constantly under threat. It is for those Hindu's who cry "secularism" with every breath to do something about it otherwise things will only get worse.

Give it a rest , sitting in other countries reading articles on Indian Democracy/Secularism makes you an expert. Hindu terrorism , Muslim threat - if your whole premise of such dangerous turn of events are articles you read then good luck. Indian Democracy / Secularism is under threat since 1947 for Pakitani's and whoever likes to believe so but we still have our Abdul Kalam's , Shah Rukh Salman Khan's , Mohammed Shami . Harbhajan's since then and will continue to do so.
 
Pakistan kills minorities , destroys temple's / no exposure to minorities in Politics ,Media , Sports or Authority figures - that's all fair but reading articles on Indian extremism sends shivers down the spine for half the posters here.
If ever in doubt about Indian Democracy/ Secularism or whatsoever ask yourself some simple questions
1 - Two countries started in 1947 and how far off they are today ?
2 - One country is sending Initiatives to the Moon , the other is hiding Osama Bin Lade / Hafeez
3 - One country is playing test cricket in Dharamshala meeting Dalai Lama with minimal security and other is having bomb blasts everyday like never ending Diwali ?

With most of the focus on India , Pakistan doesn't tend to spend any effort on themselves.
 
Not true at all. They will never let that happen.

Subramanyam Swami's (a hindu extremist here) has his daughter married to a Muslim, and he supports that completely. Probably the most hated Hindu politician here Bal Thakrey, who for many here is Hindu terrorist, also had his grand daughter married to a Muslim. There are many more examples.

And these are two high profile cases, the leaders of their organizations.
 
and why wouldn't it?..just hearing some of the views of Hindu extremists worries me too and it's not like these guys are uneducated..even the educated ones hold some absurd views proving no amount of education can overcome hate that is innate.
 
We will see how things go, there was too much paranoia even when Modi became PM.
 
Pakistan kills minorities , destroys temple's / no exposure to minorities in Politics ,Media , Sports or Authority figures - that's all fair but reading articles on Indian extremism sends shivers down the spine for half the posters here.
If ever in doubt about Indian Democracy/ Secularism or whatsoever ask yourself some simple questions
1 - Two countries started in 1947 and how far off they are today ?
2 - One country is sending Initiatives to the Moon , the other is hiding Osama Bin Lade / Hafeez
3 - One country is playing test cricket in Dharamshala meeting Dalai Lama with minimal security and other is having bomb blasts everyday like never ending Diwali ?

With most of the focus on India , Pakistan doesn't tend to spend any effort on themselves.

How far off is India compared to Pakistan? Is your country part of the First World now?

There is more poverty and backwardness in India than the entire African continent combined, so spare us all those big talks of " Shining Superpower ".

Bragging about sending initiatives to moon while more than 50 % of the country cannot afford two meals per day. Delusional...
 
Pakistan kills minorities , destroys temple's / no exposure to minorities in Politics ,Media , Sports or Authority figures - that's all fair but reading articles on Indian extremism sends shivers down the spine for half the posters here.
If ever in doubt about Indian Democracy/ Secularism or whatsoever ask yourself some simple questions
1 - Two countries started in 1947 and how far off they are today ?
2 - One country is sending Initiatives to the Moon , the other is hiding Osama Bin Lade / Hafeez
3 - One country is playing test cricket in Dharamshala meeting Dalai Lama with minimal security and other is having bomb blasts everyday like never ending Diwali ?

With most of the focus on India , Pakistan doesn't tend to spend any effort on themselves.

too much state run tv for you...Indians despite being stereotyped as intelligent have to be the most gullible citizens on the planet. Pathetic.
 
How far off is India compared to Pakistan? Is your country part of the First World now?

There is more poverty and backwardness in India than the entire African continent combined, so spare us all those big talks of " Shining Superpower ".

Bragging about sending initiatives to moon while more than 50 % of the country cannot afford two meals per day. Delusional...

When did I say India is part of the First World ? Comparing India to US/UK would be apples to oranges. Present day India and Pakistan were conceived at the same time , it's a fair comparison

India cannot afford two meals a day while Pakistan Can ?

GDP (Nominal) of India and Pakistan is $2050 billion and $250 billion respectively in 2014. On PPP basis, GDP of India and Pakistan is $7,376 billion and $882 billion.

Educate yourself before spewing baseless arguments
 
Subramanyam Swami's (a hindu extremist here) has his daughter married to a Muslim, and he supports that completely. Probably the most hated Hindu politician here Bal Thakrey, who for many here is Hindu terrorist, also had his grand daughter married to a Muslim. There are many more examples.

And these are two high profile cases, the leaders of their organizations.

Bal Thakrey had no say in his grand daughter's wedding. Subramanyam Samy is from my state and is not a religious guy at all. He does what he does to get to power. He even called the entire state of Tamil Nadu as "porikis" aka cheap rowdies on twitter.
 
too much state run tv for you...Indians despite being stereotyped as intelligent have to be the most gullible citizens on the planet. Pathetic.

Okay so state run TV is corrupted and firstly I don't live in India so I don't watch state run TV . Facts reported by International commissions or states aren't diluted to please India.

"Growth rate of Pakistan is estimated at 4.71% in 2015. India's growth rate is estimated at 7.56% in 2015."
Unemployment Rate 3.6 % in India to 5.2 % in Pakistan
Population below poverty line - 21.9 % India vs 29.5 % Pakistan ( Despite Indian Population much much larger than Pak)
Intentional homicide rate - 3.2 per 100,000 In India vs 7.9 per 100,000 in Pak
Education Literay Rate - 72.23 % India vs 56.44 % Pak
Infant Mortality Rate - 37.9 per 1000 live births India vs 65.8 per 1000 live births in Pak
Forest Area % - 23.77 % of land India vs 1.91 % Pak

So educate yourself about your own country first before you thrash other's creating drama.
 
Okay so state run TV is corrupted and firstly I don't live in India so I don't watch state run TV . Facts reported by International commissions or states aren't diluted to please India.

"Growth rate of Pakistan is estimated at 4.71% in 2015. India's growth rate is estimated at 7.56% in 2015."
Unemployment Rate 3.6 % in India to 5.2 % in Pakistan
Population below poverty line - 21.9 % India vs 29.5 % Pakistan ( Despite Indian Population much much larger than Pak)
Intentional homicide rate - 3.2 per 100,000 In India vs 7.9 per 100,000 in Pak
Education Literay Rate - 72.23 % India vs 56.44 % Pak
Infant Mortality Rate - 37.9 per 1000 live births India vs 65.8 per 1000 live births in Pak
Forest Area % - 23.77 % of land India vs 1.91 % Pak

So educate yourself about your own country first before you thrash other's creating drama.

Your country's poverty rate is much higher than Pakistan. The poverty rate you quote is at different income per day rate for Pakistan and India. For Pakistan you are using a $3.10 rate and for India you are using a much lower rate of $1.25.

It would explain why you are so delusioned as well. Your country is the epitome of inequality where the absolute rich claim a huge chunk of your GDP while there are 400-500 million people living in abject poverty, 700 million don't have toilets and 300 million don't have access to electricity. Meanwhile, Pakistan has changed the game w.r.t to all this BS you spew with CPEC and Zarb e azb. The status quo has changed significantly in the last 3-4 years and you're already seeing effects with respect to the improved security situation due to ZeA and soon high economic growth due to CPEC. Unlike your country, Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near the same % of abject level of poverty for 40-50% of its population.
 
Your country's poverty rate is much higher than Pakistan. The poverty rate you quote is at different income per day rate for Pakistan and India. For Pakistan you are using a $3.10 rate and for India you are using a much lower rate of $1.25.

It would explain why you are so delusioned as well. Your country is the epitome of inequality where the absolute rich claim a huge chunk of your GDP while there are 400-500 million people living in abject poverty, 700 million don't have toilets and 300 million don't have access to electricity. Meanwhile, Pakistan has changed the game w.r.t to all this BS you spew with CPEC and Zarb e azb. The status quo has changed significantly in the last 3-4 years and you're already seeing effects with respect to the improved security situation due to ZeA and soon high economic growth due to CPEC. Unlike your country, Pakistan doesn't have anywhere near the same % of abject level of poverty for 40-50% of its population.

Income rate is standardized when comparing poverty rate , fyi. Value of your currency/GDP/Avg is taken into consideration so I would suggest doing your math again.
India has a huge population , much bigger than Pakistan so it does have bigger numbers but , thats why when you compare statistics , you use % relative to your population now actual numbers . Basic Statistics 101 .
21.9 % of Indian population which is bigger than Pak so let's say 100,00 is close to 2200
29.5 % of Pakistani population which is smaller so let's say 1000 becomes 295.

Now if you have basic math skills you can judge yourself that 295 out of 1000 is worse than 2200 out of 100,00 even though 2200 is a bigger number than 295 ! I can be a TA for math's here now :hasan
 
Income rate is standardized when comparing poverty rate , fyi. Value of your currency/GDP/Avg is taken into consideration so I would suggest doing your math again.
India has a huge population , much bigger than Pakistan so it does have bigger numbers but , thats why when you compare statistics , you use % relative to your population now actual numbers . Basic Statistics 101 .
21.9 % of Indian population which is bigger than Pak so let's say 100,00 is close to 2200
29.5 % of Pakistani population which is smaller so let's say 1000 becomes 295.

Now if you have basic math skills you can judge yourself that 295 out of 1000 is worse than 2200 out of 100,00 even though 2200 is a bigger number than 295 ! I can be a TA for math's here now :hasan

Ok Mr Math TA, perhaps it's time for me to be your English TA and improve your reading comprehension. At which point did in my first paragraph did I quote absolute population figures? I only included percent. I said your poverty rate of 21.9% for India is based on $1.25/day USD income v/s $3.10/day USD for Pakistan. Let's see your source for the poverty rate for both India and Pakistan, that will probably show the difference in the income rate being used to decide the poverty line. Can you please post the source you are using? Please ensure it's not wikipedia.

Let's be real here though, you're just using this as diversion tactic. Bharatis do this all over the place. Talk crap about other countries all over the web, and when someone gives the medicine back, you start telling them "worry about your own country".
 
Ok Mr Math TA, perhaps it's time for me to be your English TA and improve your reading comprehension. At which point did in my first paragraph did I quote absolute population figures? I only included percent. I said your poverty rate of 21.9% for India is based on $1.25/day USD income v/s $3.10/day USD for Pakistan. Let's see your source for the poverty rate for both India and Pakistan, that will probably show the difference in the income rate being used to decide the poverty line. Can you please post the source you are using? Please ensure it's not wikipedia.

Let's be real here though, you're just using this as diversion tactic. Bharatis do this all over the place. Talk crap about other countries all over the web, and when someone gives the medicine back, you start telling them "worry about your own country".

Never did I use that as a diversion tactic , this thread as you are quite good in comprehension isn't based upon diversionary tactics. Secondly, I could sit here and provide you statistics all day, whether you'd be able to take it is a different story.

Now you are proclaiming that the statistics I have provided have not been standardized which all statistics are when they go through a Normal Distrubtion. so my questions is , with what certainity firstly are you implying that the numbers are based on the actual income per day and not on a standardized scale ?

A US $ comparison to 1 INR is roughly 67 INR and for Pakistan it is 104.56 - so when standardized to the US $ , Indians are earning 54,000 Pakistani Rupees or 36,100 INR more than their Pakistani counterparts.

http://country-facts.findthedata.com/ - If you like playing with numbers , a good resource
 
Pakistan kills minorities , destroys temple's / no exposure to minorities in Politics ,Media , Sports or Authority figures - that's all fair but reading articles on Indian extremism sends shivers down the spine for half the posters here.
If ever in doubt about Indian Democracy/ Secularism or whatsoever ask yourself some simple questions
1 - Two countries started in 1947 and how far off they are today ?
2 - One country is sending Initiatives to the Moon , the other is hiding Osama Bin Lade / Hafeez
3 - One country is playing test cricket in Dharamshala meeting Dalai Lama with minimal security and other is having bomb blasts everyday like never ending Diwali ?

With most of the focus on India , Pakistan doesn't tend to spend any effort on themselves.

You live in a globalized world, a world that is more interconnected than ever before.

This article was written by non- Pakistani news agency.

There are many Indian PPers on this forum, so posting this article and discussing shouldn't surprise anyone.

You deflecting the topic in this article by bringing up what Pakistan is doing, shows that you accept the fact that Indian Muslims (minority) are scared of Hindu radicals (majority). Shows how insecure you are.

Majority of Pakistani, I'd 99.9% Pakistani on this forum and on ground would admit Pakistan has issue with security and terrorism and we are doing whatever it takes to curb it, i.e successful PSL final played with foreign players in Lahore (since you brought up cricket).

your "talking points" are just "talking points", you have not contributed anything related to this article other than getting your feelings hurt by learning about a minority speaking against radicalism of India.

far fetch but another Burma in making when it comes to minority religious rights and ethnic cleansing.
 
You live in a globalized world, a world that is more interconnected than ever before.

This article was written by non- Pakistani news agency.

There are many Indian PPers on this forum, so posting this article and discussing shouldn't surprise anyone.

You deflecting the topic in this article by bringing up what Pakistan is doing, shows that you accept the fact that Indian Muslims (minority) are scared of Hindu radicals (majority). Shows how insecure you are.

Majority of Pakistani, I'd 99.9% Pakistani on this forum and on ground would admit Pakistan has issue with security and terrorism and we are doing whatever it takes to curb it, i.e successful PSL final played with foreign players in Lahore (since you brought up cricket).

your "talking points" are just "talking points", you have not contributed anything related to this article other than getting your feelings hurt by learning about a minority speaking against radicalism of India.

far fetch but another Burma in making when it comes to minority religious rights and ethnic cleansing.

My points regarding the inner conflicts in Pakistan is aimed at introspection , not deflection.
This article regardless of who wrote it underlines an important facet for countries like India and Pakistan , but when Pakistan does indulge in the same practices if not worse themselves , why such an overt and over the top reaction ?
Does Pakistani bullying and killing minorities spooks terror in Hindu / Christian communities in Pakistan ? Quite possible but can't say that for certain. Then despite of a bigger Muslim population in India and bigger representatives of every religion and faith in every aspect of Indian Democracy , why the over exxageration on here is what I am surprised about
 
Okay so state run TV is corrupted and firstly I don't live in India so I don't watch state run TV . Facts reported by International commissions or states aren't diluted to please India.

"Growth rate of Pakistan is estimated at 4.71% in 2015. India's growth rate is estimated at 7.56% in 2015."
Unemployment Rate 3.6 % in India to 5.2 % in Pakistan
Population below poverty line - 21.9 % India vs 29.5 % Pakistan ( Despite Indian Population much much larger than Pak)
Intentional homicide rate - 3.2 per 100,000 In India vs 7.9 per 100,000 in Pak
Education Literay Rate - 72.23 % India vs 56.44 % Pak
Infant Mortality Rate - 37.9 per 1000 live births India vs 65.8 per 1000 live births in Pak
Forest Area % - 23.77 % of land India vs 1.91 % Pak

So educate yourself about your own country first before you thrash other's creating drama.

okay so the point of you sharing all this is? Does this some how mitigate the rise of Hindu extremism in India and what Indian Muslims feel today? My initial comment of "too much state tv" was directed to your post which stated Pakistan has daily bomb blasts...you really need to be living off Indian state media to believe stuff like that..if not please enlighten Pakistanis with these daily bombings that are happening and no one knows about.
 
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My points regarding the inner conflicts in Pakistan is aimed at introspection , not deflection.
This article regardless of who wrote it underlines an important facet for countries like India and Pakistan , but when Pakistan does indulge in the same practices if not worse themselves , why such an overt and over the top reaction ?
Does Pakistani bullying and killing minorities spooks terror in Hindu / Christian communities in Pakistan ? Quite possible but can't say that for certain. Then despite of a bigger Muslim population in India and bigger representatives of every religion and faith in every aspect of Indian Democracy , why the over exxageration on here is what I am surprised about

So, you are suggesting every time there is an article posted or written about India then Pakistani must and everyone else must also discuss Pakistan and present all the statistics related to Pakistan so Insecure Indian can feel good about themselves? This is what you are asking.

My advice, stop watching that idiot box.
 
Never did I use that as a diversion tactic , this thread as you are quite good in comprehension isn't based upon diversionary tactics.

I am talking about your posts in particular. Yes they are attempts to divert the topic.

Secondly, I could sit here and provide you statistics all day, whether you'd be able to take it is a different story. Now you are proclaiming that the statistics I have provided have not been standardized which all statistics are when they go through a Normal Distrubtion. so my questions is , with what certainity firstly are you implying that the numbers are based on the actual income per day and not on a standardized scale ?

So you are not aware of the fact that poverty rates can change based on the line one picks for defining poverty? It would explain a whole lot. And you want to know with what certainty am I claiming that the rates are not based on the same poverty line? With absolute 100% certainty. This topic gets discussed a lot so I know the facts off the top of my head. Here are the sources (which you should have provided):

www.business-standard.com/article/e...s-were-below-poverty-line-113072300629_1.html

>> This is how you are getting the poverty rate of 21.9% for India. The poverty line of $1.25 is confirmed at multiple places in this article.


For Pakistan, https://www.dawn.com/news/1250694

This how you are getting the Pakistani rate, the article is in PKR but it's easy to convert to USD.

What I suggest for you to find standardized data is looking at world bank. WB has standardized rate for both India and Pakistan.

The following link will provide the poverty rate at the $1.90 USD line
http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND
http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK

If you want the poverty rate at the $3.10 USD line, use http://databank.worldbank.org/data/reports.aspx?source=poverty-and-equity-database
Set countries to India and Pakistan, set series to Poverty headcount ratio at $3.10 a day (2011 PPP) (% of population), and pick last 5-7 years for the years.

A US $ comparison to 1 INR is roughly 67 INR and for Pakistan it is 104.56 - so when standardized to the US $ , Indians are earning 54,000 Pakistani Rupees or 36,100 INR more than their Pakistani counterparts.

The rates I mentioned above are standardized and based on PPP. Your math here, on the other hand, is not much making sense. 1 USD is 67 INR and 105 PKR, sure. So how does that mean Indians are earning more? Are you not aware of PPP?
 
So, you are suggesting every time there is an article posted or written about India then Pakistani must and everyone else must also discuss Pakistan and present all the statistics related to Pakistan so Insecure Indian can feel good about themselves? This is what you are asking.

My advice, stop watching that idiot box.

Definitely not but I'd expect a less extreme reaction from someone who's house is on fire but loses their mind on seeing a spark in the neighbours house
 
Definitely not but I'd expect a less extreme reaction from someone who's house is on fire but loses their mind on seeing a spark in the neighbours house

Why do you guys start burning as soon as someone remotely criticize your country? So what the other person's country has issues, does that change anything w.r.t your own country? The insecurity is astounding. A Pakistani can criticize America or other western country and almost no one from those countries tells them "worry about your own country". Because they aren't insecure like you guys. Unlike you guys, who's primary response to criticism is "worry about your own country". It is not only diversionary, but it is also hypocritical. Across the internet and IRL, you guys constantly point out issues in Pakistan and in other countries. So why don't your guys "worry about your own country"? Or do you not like it when someone gives it back?

Also, you seem to be stuck in time with "house is on fire" comment. Zarb e Azb and CPEC have changed the status quo dramatically in the last 3 years.
 
Don't know what the issue is. Minorities should first accept the supremacy of the majority and learn that they can only survive and thrive on the majority's charity. They should show gratitude and subordination. Come back to complain if the majority rejects you after that.
 
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-india-hindu-temple-2017-story.html

An extremist Hindu leader rises in India, along with hopes for a controversial temple
Yogi Adityanath
Hard-line Hindu priest Yogi Adityanath is the new leader of Uttar Pradesh, India's most populous state. (Manish Swarup / AP)
Parth M.N. and Shashank BengaliContact Reporter

At an open-air workshop in this northern Indian town, craftsmen have painstakingly chiseled columns and beams out of giant slabs of stone, engraved each with a number and stacked them three stories high.

The stones are meant to form a temple to the Hindu god Ram at his mythological birthplace in Ayodhya — a site where extremists tore down a mosque in 1992, sparking riots between Hindus and Muslims that left more than 2,000 people dead.


The work is purely speculative, as ownership of the three-acre site picked for the temple has been the subject of a legal battle for decades. But there have been few more vocal champions of the controversial project than the Hindu monk Yogi Adityanath, a firebrand in saffron robes, who told a crowd last year: “When nobody could stop us from demolishing [the mosque], who can stop us from building a temple?”

The provocative words by the boyish-faced, buzz-cut wearing Adityanath will be tested now that he has been appointed to lead the state of Uttar Pradesh, which includes Ayodhya. The surprise move by Prime Minister Narendra Modi came after his party’s sweeping victory in assembly elections this month.

The selection of the 44-year-old radical priest to lead the country’s most populous state is a symbol of the muscular Hindu nationalism taking hold in Modi’s India.

In the three years since Modi has led the majority-Hindu nation, Adityanath has cemented his place as one of its most reliable rabble-rousers — whether by comparing Muslim Bollywood star Shah Rukh Khan to a terrorist leader or by saying that those who don’t practice yoga should leave the country.

In 2014, when Hindu leaders accused Muslims of carrying out a “love jihad” by marrying women to convert them to Islam, Adityanath called on Hindu men to convert Muslim women. After a Hindu mob in the state lynched a Muslim man wrongly suspected of possessing beef — which is banned because the cow is sacred to orthodox Hindus — Adityanath demanded the victim’s family be arrested for eating beef and the suspected killers let free.


Worshipers visit carved stones that are intended for a Hindu temple in Ayodhya, India, that has been the subject of a legal dispute since 1992.
His supporters in Uttar Pradesh believe he will realize their dream of a temple at Ram’s birthplace.

“Modi-ji in Delhi and Yogi-ji in U.P.,” crowed Annubhai Sompura, who supervises the workshop run by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, a radical Hindu group with links to Modi’s party, while using the honorific “ji” for each man. “The Ram temple is now inevitable.”

Adityanath is embraced by radical Hindus in Ayodhya, where history and mythology are often used interchangeably. Thousands of devotees throng the bustling narrow alleys or ride from temple to temple aboard aging bicycle rickshaws, pedaled by guides who recite the Hindu lore attached to every site.

The town of 55,000 people became the epicenter of one of the worst outbreaks of communal violence in the history of independent India in December 1992, when hundreds of Hindus razed the Babri Masjid, a mosque that experts said dated to the time of Mughal conquerors.

Hindu groups said the site was the birthplace of Ram, a Hindu warrior-king, and that only a temple to the deity could stand there.

Pedaling his rickshaw through streets lined with temples and sweet shops, guide Ranjit Jha told visitors with enthusiasm — though without evidence — that the Mughal emperor Babar had destroyed a Hindu temple that predated the Babri Masjid.

Dinesh Bhatt, a customer from Kerala state, listened intently.

“Whether it is true or not, we should believe in it,” Bhatt said. “It is our culture and it explains our existence.”

Hindu and Muslim groups both claim ownership of the site, and Indian courts have been unable to resolve the dispute. Last week, India’s Supreme Court called on the parties to seek an out-of-court settlement because the issue was “sensitive,” although Muslim groups have said an amicable settlement is impossible.

A hearing is scheduled for April on whether senior members of Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party, or BJP, were complicit in the mosque’s destruction.

The party has used the temple as a rallying cry since the 1990s, galvanizing support among conservative Hindus as it became the country’s dominant political organization.

The overwhelming scale of its victory in India’s most politically important state — with more than 200 million people — emboldened Modi to select a hard-liner as its chief minister, experts said. Until now, the prime minister had sought to project the image of a pragmatic modernizer and avoided embracing the more aggressively sectarian elements of his party.

“I think that this is Modi at the peak of his political power,” said Prashant Jha, a journalist with the Hindustan Times who covered the election.

The choice of Adityanath “would deepen the psychological and political alienation of Muslims” in Uttar Pradesh, Jha said.

Muslims make up slightly less than 20% of the state’s population — they constitute 14% of the country’s 1.25 billion people — but are vastly underrepresented in political positions.

Since taking office, Adityanath has not spoken publicly about the temple, focusing instead on closing unlicensed slaughterhouses and deploying “anti-Romeo squads” to curb sexual harassment. He is an unlikely law-and-order man, having once spent 15 days in jail for inciting riots.

With a court resolution on the disputed site unlikely, and national elections looming for Modi in 2019, some experts believe his party will attempt to shift focus from the temple.

“Is it worth it for the BJP to push the cause of the temple at the cost of drawing Muslim pushback, instability and even violence?” Jha said. “I don’t think so. There are other ways they can push their cultural agenda. … And Yogi’s mere presence is enough of a signal to the Hindu base.”

Near the would-be temple site, supporters remain buoyant. Amid flags of saffron — a holy color in Hinduism — and religious songs blaring from speakers, worshipers line up for hours to glimpse a small idol of Ram under a tent, a placeholder for the hoped-for temple.

A short distance away, an intricate model of the planned temple sits behind a metal barrier, watched over by a middle-aged man in a saffron scarf. The model and workshop are run by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, which is financing its temple plans through private donations.

At the workshop a few hundred yards away, Hridayram Lohar, a bespectacled 60-year-old hammering away at a slab of stone, said he has been working on the project for a third of his life.


“I will continue to work until my body permits,” he said. “It is my wish to see the day when the temple I have worked on for so long takes form.”
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-39403778

Who's the Hindu hardliner running India's most populous state?
28 March 2017
India

Yogi Adityanath has dominated headlines in India since his appointment as leader of the politically crucial state of Uttar Pradesh. A saffron-robed Hindu priest, he is a highly controversial figure who is loved and hated in equal measure, as the BBC's Geeta Pandey reports.

At the weekend, Yogi, as he is widely known, returned to a hero's welcome to the temple town of Gorakhpur for the first time since he was sworn in as chief minister on 19 March.

Overnight, the town turned saffron, the colour of his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). All roads leading to Gorakhnath temple were decorated with party flags, marigold flowers and orange balloons.

The smiling new leader, 44, looked down from massive hoardings and posters on buildings, and mannequins outside shops even sported bright saffron outfits.

At a college run by the temple, thousands of people waited for hours to see him. Speakers praised his vision and leadership. "Some people walk in others' footsteps, some make footsteps for others to walk in," said one.

A brilliant orator, Yogi Adityanath has been elected MP for Gorakhpur five times since 1998 and the crowds there worship him. Many tell me he's a "reincarnation of the gods, a God himself".

But he is also a very controversial leader who has often been in the news for the wrong reasons. Critics describe him as India's most divisive and abusive politician who used his election rallies to whip up anti-Muslim hysteria.

Overnight, Gorakhpur turned overwhelmingly saffron to welcome the new chief minister
And some of the statements attributed to him - and his supporters - have been widely condemned.

He accused Muslim men of indulging in a "love jihad" to seduce Hindu women and convert them, he claimed that Mother Teresa wanted to Christianise India, he called for a Donald Trump-style travel ban on Muslims in India and compared Bollywood superstar Shah Rukh Khan to Pakistan-based militant Hafiz Saeed.

At one point, he shared a stage with a supporter who said that when Yogi Adityanath came to power, Muslims would no longer have the right to vote and that supporters would rape dead Muslim women.

His campaign promises included "anti-Romeo squads" to "prevent harassment of Hindu women" and he listed protecting cows and shutting down illegal slaughterhouses as his top priorities.

Religious Hindus revere cows and slaughtering them is illegal in large parts of India, including Uttar Pradesh. In 2015, a Muslim man was lynched by a Hindu mob which alleged that he had stored beef at home.

Yogi Adityanath also faces criminal charges. He has been accused of attempted murder, criminal intimidation and rioting in relation to a clash that took place in 1999. And in 2007, he spent 11 days in jail for making inflammatory speeches.

No wonder then that his surprise elevation has alarmed many in India and around the world, with many expressing concerns that the state's 40 million Muslims will not have an easy time under his watch.

Uttar Pradesh is home to 40 million Muslims
In an editorial, The Guardian called it a "victory for anti-Muslim bigotry" and the New York Times said Mr Modi was trying to "humour Hindu extremists". The paper called the move "a shocking rebuke to religious minorities".

Respected Indian columnist Pratap Bhanu Mehta called it an "odious and ominous" development.


Why Uttar Pradesh (UP) matters

-The state is India's most populous with more than 222 million people - if it were a separate country, it would be the fifth largest in the world, after China, India, the US and Indonesia
-It sends 80 MPs to India's parliament, more than any other state
-Several of India's prime ministers have come from UP


And the negative publicity has continued since he became chief minister. The "anti-Romeo squads" have been accused of harassing and intimidating courting couples in cities and towns, and the authorities have been criticised for forcing abattoirs to shut down, mostly on flimsy grounds.

The press in Gorakhpur, however, has been more complimentary, revelling in the "grand victory" of their hero.

"Local newspapers are writing in great detail about his amazing memory skills, they say he can remember names of thousands of people. Some are talking about how he communicates directly with his 500 cows, monkeys, dogs and birds," says senior Gorakhpur journalist Kumar Harsh.

"For people here, he's a celebrity. He's the chief priest and head of the temple management, which also runs a hospital and colleges. He is very hardworking and is immensely popular with the people," he adds.

At a college run by the temple, the venue of his public meeting, thousands of people waited for hours to see him.
Image caption Thousands of people waited for hours to see Yogi Adityanath at his public meeting
The son of a forest ranger, Yogi Adityanath was born in 1972 in Garhwal (which was then in Uttar Pradesh but is now in Uttarakhand state) and was named Ajay Singh Bisht.

A maths graduate, he moved to Gorakhpur in November 1993 and three months later was appointed heir to Mahant Avaidyanath, the temple's chief priest and an influential Hindu politician. A vegetarian, he has taken a vow of lifelong celibacy.

Dwarika Tiwari is his deputy at the temple and has worked closely with him since his arrival in Gorakhpur.

"He's very intelligent, bright and hard-working, he's efficient, he respects everyone whatever their caste, creed or religion, he respects women and loves children."

Mr Tiwari concedes he has weaknesses - a tendency for plain speaking and a quick temper.

When I point out the anti-Muslim statements during the campaign, the criminal charges and the fact that he was briefly jailed, Mr Tiwari brushes them aside as "malicious propaganda" and "conspiracy" from his political rivals.

"Muslims respect him equally. They also come to us to resolve their disputes," he says.

Just outside the temple gates, Muslim shopkeepers insist they are not unduly worried over the appointment.

Cloth merchant Feroz Ahmad says he, in fact, voted for the BJP and now hopes that Yogi Adityanath will bring much-needed development to this backward town.

I ask him what he makes of his rabble-rousing, anti-Muslim statements.

"All politicians say such things to win elections," he says. "Some of his supporters are troublemakers who do wrong things. But now that he's in power, it will all stop."

So can it all be dismissed as mere rhetoric, something he indulged in just to win the election?

Sharat Pradhan, senior journalist in the state capital, Lucknow, says "ever since he's been named chief minister, he's been conducting himself very responsibly".

"In his first days in power, he's been careful. He's shown a lot of restraint. He's trying to be inclusive, he's even inducted a Muslim into his cabinet."

He has also been trying an image makeover - paying a surprise visit to a police station one day, visiting an acid attack victim in hospital the next. He has also refrained from commenting on the contentious issue of the Ram temple in Ayodhya despite it being promised in the BJP election manifesto.

"But the worry is with the fringe elements among his supporters. With his rabble rousing, he's freed the genie from the bottle, now the question is can he control it?" asks Mr Pradhan.

A handout photo made available by the Indian Press Information Bureau (PIB) shows newly sworn in Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh Yogi Adityanath (L) meeting with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi (R) in New Delhi, India, 21 March 2017
Image caption Yogi Adityanath says he takes the responsibility given to him by PM Modi seriously
That is precisely what Yogi Adityanath attempted to do when he took the stage in Gorakhpur at the weekend, appealing to his boisterous supporters to behave.

"The prime minister has given me a huge responsibility, to ensure that development reaches the last man. I assure you no-one will be ignored, irrespective of their caste, creed or religion," he said. "And I need your help to succeed."

Success, Mr Pradhan says, will depend on whether he can ensure the first six months of his rule are trouble-free. Then he can build his future.

"At present Mr Modi is number one in the party, the others are number nine. There's no-one in between. Yogi Adityanath can be number two.

"He's young. Age is on his side. By the time he turns 60, Mr Modi will be 80. And he will be ready to take him on. He's the BJP's tomorrow."
 
Don't know what the issue is. Minorities should first accept the supremacy of the majority and learn that they can only survive and thrive on the majority's charity. They should show gratitude and subordination. Come back to complain if the majority rejects you after that.

This is how separatists, extremists and terrorists are created.
 
How come the dalits didnt form terrorist groups?

They infiltrated through working hard, getting into power and they weren't outsiders religiously, culturally or regionally. Dalits lived down the road, in the next street or at the next bus stop so it was easy for people realize that marginalizing people based on their former careers was illogical. Kashmiris don't look like typical Indians, they look much fairer, much more handsome, much more taller, different by religion, different by culture and different by region. I live in Tamil Nadu, the furthest part from Kashmir, I myself have problem connecting with non South Indians.
 
They infiltrated through working hard, getting into power and they weren't outsiders religiously, culturally or regionally. Dalits lived down the road, in the next street or at the next bus stop so it was easy for people realize that marginalizing people based on their former careers was illogical. Kashmiris don't look like typical Indians, they look much fairer, much more handsome, much more taller, different by religion, different by culture and different by region. I live in Tamil Nadu, the furthest part from Kashmir, I myself have problem connecting with non South Indians.

Sorry, I must be in the wrong thread if we are discussing Kashmir.
 
Why do you guys start burning as soon as someone remotely criticize your country? So what the other person's country has issues, does that change anything w.r.t your own country? The insecurity is astounding. A Pakistani can criticize America or other western country and almost no one from those countries tells them "worry about your own country". Because they aren't insecure like you guys. Unlike you guys, who's primary response to criticism is "worry about your own country". It is not only diversionary, but it is also hypocritical. Across the internet and IRL, you guys constantly point out issues in Pakistan and in other countries. So why don't your guys "worry about your own country"? Or do you not like it when someone gives it back?

Also, you seem to be stuck in time with "house is on fire" comment. Zarb e Azb and CPEC have changed the status quo dramatically in the last 3 years.

Really ? Have you done much reading into CPEC at all ? I'd gladly point you out to some facts which may suggest CPEC is quite a bad deal for Pakistan I'm surprised you see that as a strength in any sense
 
Really ? Have you done much reading into CPEC at all ? I'd gladly point you out to some facts which may suggest CPEC is quite a bad deal for Pakistan I'm surprised you see that as a strength in any sense

Feel free to start discussing that in a separate thread. There's a lot of misinformation about CPEC being spread by your countrymen as well as certain liberals in Pakistan.
 
Pakistanis have their own country.Why does it matter who is CM of a province of India? Havent seen any Indian having issues about who Pakistanis have as their leader. The western media doesnt decide who becomes what in India, those days are long gone.
 
Pakistanis have their own country.Why does it matter who is CM of a province of India? Havent seen any Indian having issues about who Pakistanis have as their leader. The western media doesnt decide who becomes what in India, those days are long gone.

If there was a leader elected in Pakistan that had made remotely similar comments, there is absolutely no doubt bharatis would be all over it across the web and in the media.
 
If there was a leader elected in Pakistan that had made remotely similar comments, there is absolutely no doubt bharatis would be all over it across the web and in the media.

Pervez Mussharaff did Kargil. Became ruler of Pakistan.

Indians are simply not bothered about who becomes what in Pakistan. Because India's rules of engagement are firm.The amount of obssession with who is elected in India is astonishing. Modi or Yogi or someone else,is elected by Indians and is India's problem no one else's.Just like who becomes Pakistan's ruler is a decision of Pakistan and has no impact on India.
 
Feel free to start discussing that in a separate thread. There's a lot of misinformation about CPEC being spread by your countrymen as well as certain liberals in Pakistan.

Not really bothered by what my countrymen may be spreading but I did state some facts in another thread I believe and it's worth noting . Let's see your views on it.
 
Feel free to start discussing that in a separate thread. There's a lot of misinformation about CPEC being spread by your countrymen as well as certain liberals in Pakistan.

Some points I had pointed out before

1- Pakistan’s economic sovereignty is essentially mortgaged to China - The CPEC is based on a $46 Billion loan that Pakistan has taken from China. It is not an FDI that China will recover from the proceeds of the CPEC. The success of CPEC depends on China’s economy remaining successful and free of global sanctions to freely move its goods to the rest of the world. This certainty has recently turned suspect under the new US administration. What happens when the CPEC fails to generate the proverbial golden eggs? How does Pakistan propose to repay this loan?

2- China with the lions share - it is estimated that the movement of Chinese goods over the next decade will be $1 Trillion. And no, that is not a typo! All that business growth for China, while Pakistan assumes all the risk and is liable for the $46 Billion loan. Suddenly the $46 Billion seems like loose change, which it is for China. But it is a mountain of a loan for Pakistan.

3- Indigenous industry - China has an established track record of arriving much like a horde of locusts and completely wiping out the local indigenous industry. The floodgates to Pakistan have been opened to the Chinese and it is just a matter of time before Chinese goods do the Walmart-effect on Pakistani industry and destroy what is left of it. Perhaps Pakistan could learn a lesson or two from neighbouring India’s "Make in India” initiative to not only sustain local industry but also master strategic technology in-house.

4- Balochistan - With its track record in corruption and catering to the powerful Punjabi elites in civilian and military circles, Pakistan is not expected to fairly distribute the riches of this venture to its rightful recipients, including the Balochistan people. This will result is further aggravation and disillusionment of this large province that is already trying to break away from Pakistan.
 
Give it a rest , sitting in other countries reading articles on Indian Democracy/Secularism makes you an expert. Hindu terrorism , Muslim threat - if your whole premise of such dangerous turn of events are articles you read then good luck. Indian Democracy / Secularism is under threat since 1947 for Pakitani's and whoever likes to believe so but we still have our Abdul Kalam's , Shah Rukh Salman Khan's , Mohammed Shami . Harbhajan's since then and will continue to do so.

I can't give Hindu terrorism a rest as it is effecting the whole region. You mentioning some successful minority personalities does not negate that your PM is a terrorist himself. Yup! Just like your channels are experts on Pakistan we to are free to judge without needing your permission. Even your SRK has ben threatened many times by Hindu terrorists telling him to go to Pakistan. No thanks, you are welcome to him.
 
I can't give Hindu terrorism a rest as it is effecting the whole region. You mentioning some successful minority personalities does not negate that your PM is a terrorist himself. Yup! Just like your channels are experts on Pakistan we to are free to judge without needing your permission. Even your SRK has ben threatened many times by Hindu terrorists telling him to go to Pakistan. No thanks, you are welcome to him.

This coming from a country that is continuously sending terrorists into India to destabilize it and openly operates terrorists camp while harboring fugitives and people with extreme ideology to kill other's is very odd. Atleast the Indian PM is supported by Indian Muslims which you may not be able to understand considering the history of Pakistani Sham Democracy . If you had the capacity to realize the facts of where Pakistan stands in world views / GDP / perception of it's people you'd rather introspect first. And if you think mud slinging would actually make a difference or if your opinion can dampen anything related to India , g'luck trying.
you've seen the Journey from '47 to now and you can watch the next 50 years and so how things end up being
 
This coming from a country that is continuously sending terrorists into India to destabilize it and openly operates terrorists camp while harboring fugitives and people with extreme ideology to kill other's is very odd. Atleast the Indian PM is supported by Indian Muslims which you may not be able to understand considering the history of Pakistani Sham Democracy . If you had the capacity to realize the facts of where Pakistan stands in world views / GDP / perception of it's people you'd rather introspect first. And if you think mud slinging would actually make a difference or if your opinion can dampen anything related to India , g'luck trying.
you've seen the Journey from '47 to now and you can watch the next 50 years and so how things end up being

Just like you are sending terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA like Kulbushan Yadav then cry when we do the same, hard luck! Just like Ajit Doval openly admits supporting terror organisation RAW being involved to it's neck in Pakistan having been caiught red handed many times. Your democracy is a bigger joke choosing terrorists as leaders, way to go "Supported by Indian Muslim's" as if you went around and asked your 200 million ones how much they love, silly comment . We are not talking of what the west says of economics here though I realise Hindu terrorism touches a very sore nerve with your kind! Your attempts to isolate Pakistan have repeatedly failed and will continue to do so. I have seen Pakistan being built and insha Allah will live it become a success that it deserve to be! I am not trying nothing but the facts are there for all to see, you worry about your own poverty ridden slum hole instead of us. Your India tops the list of almost all poverty related things.
 
Pervez Mussharaff did Kargil. Became ruler of Pakistan.

Indians are simply not bothered about who becomes what in Pakistan. Because India's rules of engagement are firm.The amount of obssession with who is elected in India is astonishing. Modi or Yogi or someone else,is elected by Indians and is India's problem no one else's.Just like who becomes Pakistan's ruler is a decision of Pakistan and has no impact on India.

Kargil is not similar. There are some reasonable ways to justify it. What the CM said is not remotely similar. Plus, Kargil did not happen in the days of internet.
 
Not really bothered by what my countrymen may be spreading but I did state some facts in another thread I believe and it's worth noting . Let's see your views on it.

Send me a link to the thread. I see your post below this one that I am quoting but I am not interested in discussing this on this thread. Your post is mostly bunk and has been dissected many times btw, I would be happy to do it if you send me a link to the thread where you discussed. And btw, whatever happened to "worry about your own problems" now? Seems like you don't follow what you preach.
 
Kargil is not similar. There are some reasonable ways to justify it. What the CM said is not remotely similar. Plus, Kargil did not happen in the days of internet.

What the CM said has nothing to do with Pakistan.A lot of things have been exaggerated.

What is the reasonable reason to justify breaking international treaties and starting a war getting 1000s killed?
 
I can't give Hindu terrorism a rest as it is effecting the whole region.

You should let it go, dont waste your time, India and Pakistani will never go to war. However if your leadership is mad enough to do another Kargil like episode, under this MODI government that could be the end of Pakistan. However sending terrorists into Kashmir and paying a few brain washed Kashmiri's to throw stones at the Indian army wont escalate into anything, life will go on...
 
What the CM said has nothing to do with Pakistan.A lot of things have been exaggerated.

What is the reasonable reason to justify breaking international treaties and starting a war getting 1000s killed?

The CM and PM are both fanatic, the world knows it.

You should be ashamed to call yourself a secular country.
 
You should let it go, dont waste your time, India and Pakistani will never go to war. However if your leadership is mad enough to do another Kargil like episode, under this MODI government that could be the end of Pakistan. However sending terrorists into Kashmir and paying a few brain washed Kashmiri's to throw stones at the Indian army wont escalate into anything, life will go on...

Modi government can only sponser terrorists in balochistan and firing at the Loc border haha.
And about end of pakistan in your dreams.
 
Modi government can only sponser terrorists in balochistan and firing at the Loc border haha.
And about end of pakistan in your dreams.

They will end Pakistan. Just wait and watch Phantom part 2. Saif Ali Khan will single handedly end Pakistan. Or maybe a special appearance by Sunny Deol who will scream so loud which will cause whole Pakistan to collapse.
 
The CM and PM are both fanatic, the world knows it.

You should be ashamed to call yourself a secular country.

and this is your emotional opinion / religious opinion or your political expert opinion ?
Maybe you aren't familiar with democracy but in India people vote to elect - It's a cool system , our Army generals don't take over the countries and run puppet governments.
Considering more Muslims live in India whereas Minorities are being killed on a daily basis in Pakistan makes me wonder who's shameless here
 
Modi government can only sponser terrorists in balochistan and firing at the Loc border haha.
And about end of pakistan in your dreams.

Modi Government can also Send Mission to Mars , Partner with Israel/ US and grow their relationships with countries around the world , Grow India's GDP exponentially while beating Pakistan in every world cup. I'll take it :D
 
Modi Government can also Send Mission to Mars , Partner with Israel/ US and grow their relationships with countries around the world , Grow India's GDP exponentially while beating Pakistan in every world cup. I'll take it :D

ok india is the best if that makes you happy
 
Yeah his response was to Hafeez Saeed , ever listen to his peace speeches ?

Seriously people like you are mentally sick and justify such speeches and actions. Sorry to say you make me sick with justifying that disgusting speech of your hero CM.
 
Seriously people like you are mentally sick and justify such speeches and actions. Sorry to say you make me sick with justifying that disgusting speech of your hero CM.

So an Indian CM is digusting whereas Hafiz Saeed , Lashkar and all those extremist Islamic group terrorizing is Allah's wish ? What a bunch of fools
 
Just like you are sending terrorists in Baluchistan and FATA like Kulbushan Yadav then cry when we do the same, hard luck! Just like Ajit Doval openly admits supporting terror organisation RAW being involved to it's neck in Pakistan having been caiught red handed many times. Your democracy is a bigger joke choosing terrorists as leaders, way to go "Supported by Indian Muslim's" as if you went around and asked your 200 million ones how much they love, silly comment . We are not talking of what the west says of economics here though I realise Hindu terrorism touches a very sore nerve with your kind! Your attempts to isolate Pakistan have repeatedly failed and will continue to do so. I have seen Pakistan being built and insha Allah will live it become a success that it deserve to be! I am not trying nothing but the facts are there for all to see, you worry about your own poverty ridden slum hole instead of us. Your India tops the list of almost all poverty related things.

Either you don't read much or live in your bubble , couple of acts for you think about
"Growth rate of Pakistan is estimated at 4.71% in 2015. India's growth rate is estimated at 7.56% in 2015."
Unemployment Rate 3.6 % in India to 5.2 % in Pakistan
Population below poverty line - 21.9 % India vs 29.5 % Pakistan ( Despite Indian Population much much larger than Pak)
Intentional homicide rate - 3.2 per 100,000 In India vs 7.9 per 100,000 in Pak
Education Literay Rate - 72.23 % India vs 56.44 % Pak
Infant Mortality Rate - 37.9 per 1000 live births India vs 65.8 per 1000 live births in Pak
Forest Area % - 23.77 % of land India vs 1.91 % Pak
 
Either you don't read much or live in your bubble , couple of acts for you think about
"Growth rate of Pakistan is estimated at 4.71% in 2015. India's growth rate is estimated at 7.56% in 2015."
Unemployment Rate 3.6 % in India to 5.2 % in Pakistan
Population below poverty line - 21.9 % India vs 29.5 % Pakistan ( Despite Indian Population much much larger than Pak)
Intentional homicide rate - 3.2 per 100,000 In India vs 7.9 per 100,000 in Pak
Education Literay Rate - 72.23 % India vs 56.44 % Pak
Infant Mortality Rate - 37.9 per 1000 live births India vs 65.8 per 1000 live births in Pak
Forest Area % - 23.77 % of land India vs 1.91 % Pak

I already dispelled your lies about poverty based on world bank data. Did you not bother looking at the data? Or do you just want to continue making up lies?

http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND

2011 poverty rate at the $1.90 line: 21.2% for India, 9.3% for Pakistan.
 
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I already dispelled your lies about poverty based on world bank data. Did you not bother looking at the data? Or do you just want to continue making up lies?

I will definitely get back to when I have time on the weekend to dissociate your argument but for the sake of my reply, let's put aside the poverty numbers. Your calculations do seem flawed to me but I will need to look it more closely, the other numbers we can definitely look at as well.

Also I have posted some CPEC remarks in the thread , feel free to comment upon those.
 
I will definitely get back to when I have time on the weekend to dissociate your argument but for the sake of my reply, let's put aside the poverty numbers. Your calculations do seem flawed to me but I will need to look it more closely, the other numbers we can definitely look at as well.

You are calling my calculations flawed? They are not my calculations, they are world bank calculations based on equivalent PPP and then converted back to USD. This is an apples to apples comparison, unlike what you've been posting.

Also I have posted some CPEC remarks in the thread , feel free to comment upon those.

And I already replied to you - I will not discuss CPEC details in that thread, and asked you to give me a link to the thread where you were discussing CPEC in a CPEC related thread.
 
So an Indian CM is digusting whereas Hafiz Saeed , Lashkar and all those extremist Islamic group terrorizing is Allah's wish ? What a bunch of fools

Listen I didn't mention your Hindu Gods so no need to go that far.
And you seen anyone backing Hafiz Saeed or Lakshar on here. And fools like you justify disgusting statements just because it's against Muslims. Mentally sick minded people you are.
 
Show me when any BJP govt claimed this Akhand Bharat?

BJP National general secretary Ram Madhav has said it many times and said RSS and BJP share similar ideologies.
I know he is part of RSS that's why he claiming that but as BJP party member he still claiming Akhand Bharat.
 
Listen I didn't mention your Hindu Gods so no need to go that far.
And you seen anyone backing Hafiz Saeed or Lakshar on here. And fools like you justify disgusting statements just because it's against Muslims. Mentally sick minded people you are.

I am quoting his speech bud, not to involve god , apologize if you felt that way.
No I am not justifying his statements but don't look at his CM's statements in isolation. His speeches are wrong but quite possible in reply to a lot of provocative statements made by Individuals within Pakistan and unfortunately India as well.
If you think India isn't secular, I can provide you many examples of how only in a secular and democratic country like India - Hate speeches against any religion can be made without repurcussions because freedom of speech.
If Hindu was such a stoic , hardlines Hindu country similar to Saudi, this wouldn't happen
 
BJP National general secretary Ram Madhav has said it many times and said RSS and BJP share similar ideologies.
I know he is part of RSS that's why he claiming that but as BJP party member he still claiming Akhand Bharat.

Please post the appropriate reference.

AFAIK No Indian govt has ever claimed Pakistan. But every Pakistani govt has claimed Kashmir.
 
Listen I didn't mention your Hindu Gods so no need to go that far.
And you seen anyone backing Hafiz Saeed or Lakshar on here. And fools like you justify disgusting statements just because it's against Muslims. Mentally sick minded people you are.

You didn't understand his point.

Yogi Adityanath is comparable to an average Muslim. Very vocal about spreading Hinduism, extremely protective of his own religion, and very fond of converting minorities.

But how does that make you guys compare him to terrorists or terrorists organizations? Don't you guys have the same views about your religion or it's spread?
 
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I am quoting his speech bud, not to involve god , apologize if you felt that way.
No I am not justifying his statements but don't look at his CM's statements in isolation. His speeches are wrong but quite possible in reply to a lot of provocative statements made by Individuals within Pakistan and unfortunately India as well.
If you think India isn't secular, I can provide you many examples of how only in a secular and democratic country like India - Hate speeches against any religion can be made without repurcussions because freedom of speech.
If Hindu was such a stoic , hardlines Hindu country similar to Saudi, this wouldn't happen

So people make statements in Pakistan and it's on to reply to all Muslims in Indian and target them for it.

Yes hate speeches against religion is all fine in India especially against Islam and Muslims. Saw the backlash SRK faced many times for his freedom of speech hahaha
 
You didn't understand his point.

Yogi Adityanath is comparable to an average Muslim. Very vocal about spreading Hinduism, extremely protective of his own religion, and very fond of converting minorities.

But how does that make you guys compare him to terrorists or terrorists organizations? Don't you guys have the same views about your religion or it's spread?

Yes it's not being extremist by telling everyone to drag and rape dead Muslim womans from their graves.
By killing and raping is your way to spread it then carry on then don't deny the facts when questioned.
 
So people make statements in Pakistan and it's on to reply to all Muslims in Indian and target them for it.

Yes hate speeches against religion is all fine in India especially against Islam and Muslims. Saw the backlash SRK faced many times for his freedom of speech hahaha

Why is such a serious allegation followed with "hahaha"? What is so funny bro?
 
Why is such a serious allegation followed with "hahaha"? What is so funny bro?

Because the poster said people have made freedom of speeches against religions and nothing happened. Obviously as Hindu extremism is on the rise anything against Muslims will be applauded.

And not a allegation you know it and the whole world know it the amount of backlash SRK has faced over comments just about intolerance.
 
Yes it's not being extremist by telling everyone to drag and rape dead Muslim womans from their graves.
By killing and raping is your way to spread it then carry on then don't deny the facts when questioned.

Do you have a source for your facts? If you have, I'll believe you.

Sadly, so far you have avoided all the posts asking you for a reference on your facts.
 
Because the poster said people have made freedom of speeches against religions and nothing happened. Obviously as Hindu extremism is on the rise anything against Muslims will be applauded.

And not a allegation you know it and the whole world know it the amount of backlash SRK has faced over comments just about intolerance.

Modi, SRK, Yogi.. everyone faces a backlash in India. That's the beauty of a democracy bhai.

The same people turned them into India's biggest personalities.
 
So people make statements in Pakistan and it's on to reply to all Muslims in Indian and target them for it.

Yes hate speeches against religion is all fine in India especially against Islam and Muslims. Saw the backlash SRK faced many times for his freedom of speech hahaha

Then you are very nit picking things based on your agenda , there are hate speeches on every religion including hinduism in India as well , Please do read on those as well. Because of it's secular nature , people from all religion/ races do say things because of freedom of speech. That backlash is also freedom of speech - If one person makes a point and someone gets offended they will backlash .
In Pakistan , do you hear people talking against Islam ? No , why ? Because it's an extremist society and you will be killed for it. That , sir is the difference.
 
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