Russia invades Ukraine

[Robert]

UK is NOT losing the right to peaceful process. The new bill aims at banning the more violent protests carried out by the likes of Extinction Rebellion, where they disturb the peace.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...and-courts-bill-2021-protest-powers-factsheet

Liberalism and their intolerance and lies are far more responsible in the decline of UK society. Coupled with Remainers, they are they sole reason for spreading xenophobia and than any other group when trying to overturn democracy.

XR can already be arrested for Disturbance of the Peace or Obstruction of the Highway or both. Current laws are enough.

The new bill allows you to be arrested for causing “serious annoyance” and imprisoned for ten years. For being annoying. Do you think the state might misuse that power?

 

[Robert]

The above descriptives only cover the agenda of a tiny subsection of our White Elite. (and those chancers who are looking to shoehorn themselves into it.)

The British people at large are completely different — broad minded, decent, diverse, and accepting.

The people at large are not in charge.

The new laws are intended to protect the “tiny subsection” oligarchs (who are cronies of Tory MPs) from the hoi polloi like you and me, while getting us to look the wrong way with fake patriotism. People who earn £1000 per hour have convinced people who earn £10 an hour that people who earn £5 an hour are the problem. While the oligarchs rob us blind and take our hard-won rights away.

The same can’t be said for the general public in many countries, including most European countries, who have been statistically proven over a long period to have much worse and more suspicious attitudes towards foreigners, refugees, and religious & ethnic minorities than the Brits.

The UK is the only major European player without a far right party or far right candidate that either has significant influence or is gaining major traction. Why is that?

Because of FPTP - which incidentally is also a pillar of the establishment network you rightly decried earlier.

 

[Technics 1210]

XR can already be arrested for Disturbance of the Peace or Obstruction of the Highway or both. Current laws are enough.

The new bill allows you to be arrested for causing “serious annoyance” and imprisoned for ten years. For being annoying. Do you think the state might misuse that power?

Current laws are not enough. Police do not have the power to arrest protestors that disturb the peace or cause havoc which results in shutdowns. Hence the new bill. The police have no power to arrest disturbing protestors. ​

I supporters peaceful protests but serious annoyance such as chaining yourself to Heathrow tunnel and shutting down Heathrow is neither acceptable nor peaceful. Shutting down bridges and Motorways cos protestors glue themselves to the road is beyond annoyance but detrimental to the economy.

Do I think the state might misuse new power? Perhaps, in the same way protestors are prepared to exploit the right to protest by costing businesses /economies losses.

 

[Technics 1210]

The people at large are not in charge.

The new laws are intended to protect the “tiny subsection” oligarchs (who are cronies of Tory MPs) from the hoi polloi like you and me, while getting us to look the wrong way with fake patriotism. People who earn £1000 per hour have convinced people who earn £10 an hour that people who earn £5 an hour are the problem. While the oligarchs rob us blind and take our hard-won rights away.



Because of FPTP - which incidentally is also a pillar of the establishment network you rightly decried earlier.

The people are not in charge? Well, I guess this sums up the illusion of democracy. You have already stated that the majority of voters are dumb and uneducated. Why bother with democracy then? May as well stick to dictatorship/authoritarion model if you feel the people in power know what is best for the public.

 

[James]

While the oligarchs rob us blind and take our hard-won rights away.

[…]

The new bill allows you to be arrested for causing “serious annoyance” and imprisoned for ten years. For being annoying. Do you think the state might misuse that power?

This feels quite selective, because you and others who identify as liberals and the liberal-left generally support the highly restrictive covid laws and lockdowns, which are deeply damaging and extreme authoritarian illiberal powers that were brought in with no opposition or scrutiny at all, are still technically active until March at least, and are much easier to misuse than the new protest legislation (they have arguably been misused already…) — what about our hard won rights that the covid laws signed away overnight?

 

[James]

Because of FPTP - which incidentally is also a pillar of the establishment network you rightly decried earlier.

You’re right, and this is actually a huge argument in favour of keeping FPTP. It is a proven electoral method of keeping the fascists out.

 

[Robert]

This feels quite selective, because you and others who identify as liberals and the liberal-left generally support the highly restrictive covid laws and lockdowns, which are deeply damaging and extreme authoritarian illiberal powers that were brought in with no opposition or scrutiny at all, are still technically active until March at least, and are much easier to misuse than the new protest legislation (they have arguably been misused already…)

In such areas of conflict of principle I fall back on utilitarianism - the COVID restrictions saved a million British lives, and were time-bound, therefore justified.

Whereas the new laws are designed to silence individual people whom the establishment finds a nuisance or awkward or not quite British enough. Which is the top of a very slippery slope to…. well you know where it ends.

 

[Robert]

You’re right, and this is actually a huge argument in favour of keeping FPTP. It is a proven electoral method of keeping the fascists out.

Or the communists. And yet FPTP perpetuates the Tory-Labour duopoly. Johnson gets a stonking majority on 40% of the vote. Under PR the LDs would have 65 seats not 13, and the Greens 30 not 1. Yes a wannabe-gauleiter would get in too, but this has not turned any European nation fascist except possibly Hungary. The fash get sat on in parliaments.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Scotland has a combination of FTPT and Proportional representation. It is confusing and allows politicians to sneak in through the back door.

In the current parliament, it has allowed the far-left extremist green party who had no directly elected members to form part of the government with the SNP and has allowed them to smash up Scottish industry and the economy with ill-founded ideas that all seemingly focus on bicycles.

Lets just stick to FPTP. It is the fairest of all systems.

 

[Robert]

Lets just stick to FPTP. It is the fairest of all systems.

It quite clearly isn’t - one party needs 20k votes to elect a MP, another 150K and a third 1M. That’s why everyone else in Europe has PR.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It quite clearly isn’t - one party needs 20k votes to elect a MP, another 150K and a third 1M. That’s why everyone else in Europe has PR.

What do you mean?

 

[James]

Back to topic…

<b>Ukraine crisis: Russian attack would be 'horrific', US warns</b>

Top US General Mark Milley has said that a Russian invasion of Ukraine would be "horrific" and would lead to a significant number of casualties.

Gen Milley described the build-up of 100,000 Russian troops near Ukraine's border as the largest since the Cold War.

But US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin said conflict could still be avoided through the use of diplomacy.

Russia denies plans to invade and says US support for Ukraine is a threat.

At a news conference at the Pentagon on Friday, Gen Milley - US President Joe Biden's most senior military officer - warned that the scale of Russia's forces near its border with Ukraine meant an attack would have severe consequences.

"If that was unleashed on Ukraine, it would be significant, very significant, and it would result in a significant amount of casualties," said the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff.

Fighting in dense urban areas would be "horrific, it would be terrible", Gen Milley added.

US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin said the US was committed to helping Ukraine defend itself, including by providing more weaponry.

"Conflict is not inevitable. There is still time and space for diplomacy," Mr Austin said, calling on Russian President Vladimir Putin to de-escalate the situation.

"There is no reason that this situation has to devolve into conflict... He can order his troops away," he added.

Also on Friday, President Biden said he would send a small number of troops to Eastern Europe in the "near term", to strengthen the Nato presence in the region.

He did not specify where they would be stationed or when they would arrive.

Earlier this week, the Pentagon said there were 8,500 combat-ready troops on alert, ready to be deployed at short notice.

The US has rejected a key Moscow demand that Nato rule out Ukraine joining the defence alliance - but insisted it was offering Russia a "serious diplomatic path".

Russian President Vladimir Putin accused the West of ignoring Russia's security concerns.

But he said he would study the US response before deciding what to do, according to a Kremlin readout of a call between Mr Putin and his French counterpart.

France said the two leaders had agreed on the need to de-escalate and that its President Emmanuel Macron had told Mr Putin that Russia must respect the sovereignty of its neighbouring states.

The warnings from the Pentagon come after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters not to create panic over the build-up of Russian troops on his country's borders.

At a news conference in Kyiv, Mr Zelensky said he did not see a greater threat now than during a similar massing of troops last spring.

"There are signals even from respected leaders of states, they just say that tomorrow there will be war. This is panic - how much does it cost for our state?"

The "destabilisation of the situation inside the country" was the biggest threat to Ukraine, he said.

 

[Robert]

What do you mean?

Off topic..
It’s what you get when you divide the total votes for a party by their total seats in Parliament. Takes 20k votes on average to elect a Tory, 27K to elect a Labourite, 150K to elect a LD and a million to elect a Green.

On topic…..

Tucker Carlson on Fox News is going nuts about this, telling his audience that Biden is driving for war to somehow protect his son. Absolutely bats. But for so many Americans this is their only source of information. No wonder US politics has got so hyper partisan.

 

[Robert]

Mayor of Kviv Vitali Klitschko (yes, him!) says his city will stand and fight any invasion.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60188690

<b>Ukraine-Russia tensions: British troops 'unlikely' to fight - Truss</b>

There is a "real threat" of Russia invading Ukraine, Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has warned, but it is "very unlikely" British soldiers would be deployed to fight in any conflict.

Instead, she said the UK was sending weapons to Ukraine and "strengthening" its sanction system so oligarchs close to the Kremlin had "nowhere to hide".

She said the UK was also offering extra support to nearby Nato allies.

Any invasion would be "terrible for Europe", Ms Truss told the BBC.

Russia has placed about 100,000 troops, tanks, artillery and missiles near Ukraine's border, but denies it plans to invade the former Soviet republic, which borders both Russia and the EU.

But Ms Truss said it was "highly likely" that President Vladimir Putin was looking to invade.

"We're doing all we can through deterrence and diplomacy to urge him to desist," she told BBC One's Sunday Morning programme.

Economic sanctions - punishments put on a state, individuals or organisations by another country - could target Russian financial institutions, energy companies, and those who are "key to... the continuation of the Russian regime".

Under new legislation, sanctions could potentially target "any interest that has an impact on the Russian government", she said.

The Foreign Office is expected announce tougher sanctions in Parliament on Monday.

Ms Truss, who will visit Ukraine and Moscow in the next two weeks, said the UK had already trained 20,000 troops in Ukraine, supplied anti-tank missiles, and given support to its navy and energy sector.

The UK is also considering offering to double the number of its troops deployed in Eastern Europe, with Prime Minister Boris Johnson saying it would send a "clear message to the Kremlin".

The UK has more than 900 military personnel based in Estonia, more than 100 in Ukraine as part of a training mission, while a light cavalry squadron numbering about 150 is deployed to Poland.

Also speaking to Sunday Morning's Sophie Raworth, Nato's secretary general Jens Stoltenberg said there would be a "high price to pay" if Russia decided "to use force".

"The more aggressive they are, the more Nato [presence] they will get at the borders."

However, he reiterated that Ukraine was not a member of the military alliance, and as such there were "no plans to deploy Nato combat troops".

Russia wants the West to promise Ukraine will never join Nato, in which members promise to come to another's aid in the event of an armed attack.

Nato's 30 members include the US, UK, and several former Soviet republics, some of which border Russia. Moscow sees Nato troops in Eastern Europe as a direct threat to its security.

If Russia were to invade Ukraine, it would not be the first time.

Russia annexed Ukraine's southern Crimea peninsula in 2014. It is also backing rebels who seized large swathes of the eastern Donbas region soon afterwards, and some 14,000 people have died in fighting there.

 

[MenInG]

Pakistan’s geopolitical (mis)alignments have serious repercussions on its economic wellbeing.

Since the house is not in order yet, we’ve always had hand-holding, even during our relatively better economic years.

Gone are the days, again. Getting cozy with China under the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) has taken a breather and the abrupt Afghan pullout by the US has kept Pakistan out of its strategic radar.

Brewing distantly is a potential war between Russia and Ukraine. Pakistan too will feel the shockwaves and must ready itself.

Perturbed by the increasing Nato military presence in Russia’s neighbourhood, Putin had sought security guarantees from US President Joe Biden.

In response, Nato has kept the doors open for Ukraine and beefed up Ukraine’s military defence. That doesn’t seem to be going down well at all as Biden expects a probable invasion by the end of February.

US and its allies have prepared the worst possible economic sanctions on Russia should Putin wish to invade or install Moscow-friendly regime in Kiev. Russia had already annexed Crimea without invoking much of the global hue and cry.

The magnitude of the crisis could be inferred from the exchange of words between the US and Russian leaders. In calls between the leaders, Putin has warned that new sanctions would make the “descendants regret” while Biden has emphasised that a “nuclear war must not be started as it cannot be won”.

These are probably the strongest of words heard since the WW2. Everyone must be alarmed.

For Pakistan, the worries are both political and economic. Not that politically Pakistan has a major role to play in the conflict, but picking sides would further alienate the country in a singular orbit.

In an increasingly bipolar world order, Pakistan must not give up on neutrality and should call for restraint from both ends. Pakistan is warming up to better Russian ties and thus, all efforts must be exhausted to diplomatically aid the peace process. Not commenting is not an option.

Economically, Pakistan must be ready for a prolonged higher oil prices north of $100 a barrel. Oil prices have already touched the “nervous nineties”.

Yes, Pakistanis and policymakers are and should be nervous. Rising oil prices can have a devastating effect on Pakistan’s growth prospects.

If imports are not curtailed and exports do not grow, we may need to raise interest rate to near 12% or pressure on the rupee could push it to near Rs200 a dollar.

The induced inflationary pressures would be irreversible like toothpaste. Hence, a stress test is a must along with contingency plans.

A $10-20 rise in oil prices for a couple of quarters can conveniently burn $1-2 billion of our reserves along with a colossal loss to the PTI’s dwindling vote base and Pakistan’s purchasing power.

A few measures Pakistan can take to prepare itself for the worst-case scenario are the following:

One, encourage work from home in organisations, where possible, for 20-30% of workforce.

Two, mandate digital schooling for institutes where students are now familiarised for a few days in a week.

Three, reduce the timings of commercial shops, malls, parks and other non-essential travel.

Four, encourage public transport and commercial cargo transport by railways.

Five, utilise local coal for electricity production instead of imported furnace oil and LNG.

Six, do not overly subsidise petrol and diesel as it paradoxically increases demand amid rising prices.

Seven, utilise untapped local gas reserves to produce electricity, fertiliser, etc.

Eight, appeal to the masses to reduce non-essential travel.

Nine, temporary place three to six-month ban on luxury imports/ higher duties on outflow of funds abroad for holidays.

Ten, arrange for oil credit facility to tide over the tough period of high oil prices.

Eleven, arrange inventory for wheat, sunflower, corn, rapeseed and barley as Ukraine is the top exporter of such commodities.

To conclude, Pakistan had emerged relatively unscathed from Covid, as acknowledged globally. That short-lived growth spurt didn’t last longer as import pressure has compounded since the autumn of 2021 that has brought a soft-landing for Pakistan’s economy.

The brewing Russia-Ukraine crisis – if escalates further – has the capacity to take oil prices above $100-120 a barrel and derail Pakistan for a hard-landing of the economy.

Such a fall would be catastrophic in nature that even lenders, such as the IMF, wouldn’t be able to bail out and could cause sovereign defaults and haircuts for bondholders.

Should the oil prices truncate before touching triple digits due to Omicron or faster-than-anticipated US Fed hikes, then all is well. Otherwise, we would have only ourselves to blame for the lack of foresight and poor contingency planning.

Three and a half months ago, Putin did warn oil could reach $100. Too bad that oil-importing nations didn’t take him seriously back then. It’s not too late yet to fix the house.

A collective response is needed to weather the storm. Everyone would feel the heat. Pakistan needs to sit tightly and tide it over. We all would have to contribute. Reduce the fuel bills.

The writer is an investment specialist with keen interest in political economy



Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2022.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60204847

<b>Boris Johnson visits Ukraine for talks as Russian invasion fears rise</b>

Boris Johnson will travel to Ukraine later for talks with the country's president, amid rising concerns over a possible Russian invasion.

The UK prime minister promised to work with Volodymyr Zelensky to find a diplomatic solution to arguments with Moscow and "avoid further bloodshed".

Russia has massed an estimated 100,000 troops, tanks, artillery and missiles near its borders with Ukraine.

But President Vladimir Putin denies he is planning an attack.

However, his government has warned Ukraine not to make any further moves towards joining Nato, arguing that this threatens Russia's own security.

The US has rejected this demand and Western countries are threatening to expand sanctions against Moscow if there is an invasion.

UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has said legislation was being prepared to target a wider range of individuals and businesses associated with Mr Putin, while a US official said Washington's sanctions meant people close to the Kremlin would be cut off from the international financial system.

Ahead of Mr Johnson's visit to Ukraine's capital, Kyiv, the UK government announced it was giving £88m to promote stable governance and energy independence from Russia.

Mr Johnson said: "It is the right of every Ukrainian to determine how they are governed.

As a friend and a democratic partner, the UK will continue to uphold Ukraine's sovereignty in the face of those who seek to destroy it.

"We urge Russia to step back and engage in dialogue to find a diplomatic resolution and avoid further bloodshed."

Mr Johnson hopes also to speak to Mr Putin later this week.

Foreign Secretary Liz Truss had been due to accompany the PM to Ukraine, but she announced on Monday that she had been diagnosed with Covid and was self-isolating.

US President Joe Biden has warned there is a "distinct possibility" of Russia invading Ukraine within the next month.

On Monday there were angry clashes between Russian and US envoys at the UN Security Council, after the US called a meeting to discuss Moscow's troop build-up on its borders with Ukraine.

US Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield said the mobilisation was the biggest Europe had seen in decades.

She said the US continued to believe there was a diplomatic solution, but warned the US would act decisively in the event of an invasion - the consequences of which would be "horrific".

However, her Russian counterpart Vasily Nebenzya accused the US of fomenting hysteria and "unacceptable interference" in Russia's affairs.

He said there was no proof that Russia was planning military action against Ukraine, adding that Russia often deployed troops on its own territory and this was none of Washington's business.

Meanwhile diplomatic efforts to de-escalate the crisis continue, with Mr Putin speaking by phone to French President Emmanuel Macron on Monday.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken is set to speak with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov later.

Russia wants the West to promise Ukraine will never join Nato - a military alliance where members promise to come to another's aid in the event of an armed attack.

Moscow sees Nato troops in eastern Europe as a direct threat to its security, but the US has already rejected this demand.

President Putin has long argued the US broke a 1990 guarantee, amid the collapse of the Soviet Union, that Nato would not expand further east - though interpretations differ over exactly what was promised.

Nato's 30 members include the US and UK, as well as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia - former Soviet republics which border Russia.

Moscow's forces annexed Ukraine's southern Crimea peninsula in 2014 and it is backing rebels who seized large swathes of the eastern Donbas region soon afterwards.

Some 14,000 people have died in fighting there.

 

[JaDed]

I think Trump was defn better than Joe, I don’t care how he interviewed or what not, there was much more economic progress in States and less War like scenarios involving USA (except Iran).

I don’t understand the pro NATO stance of Democrats.

 

[Robert]

I think Trump was defn better than Joe, I don’t care how he interviewed or what not, there was much more economic progress in States and less War like scenarios involving USA (except Iran).

I don’t understand the pro NATO stance of Democrats.

Trump inherited a boom economy from Obama, but now the world economy has hit the skids due to international shortages of chips and rising energy prices.

Dems believe in the post-WW2 liberal democratic order of nations cooperating to achieve shared goals through UN, World Bank, Council of Europe, EU, GATT, NATO etc. which has so far prevented another world war.

Modern Repubs are basically like Trump - purely transactional. They will give nothing unless they get something.

 

[JaDed]

Trump inherited a boom economy from Obama, but now the world economy has hit the skids due to international shortages of chips and rising energy prices.

Dems believe in the post-WW2 liberal democratic order of nations cooperating to achieve shared goals through UN, World Bank, Council of Europe, EU, GATT, NATO etc. which has so far prevented another world war.

Modern Repubs are basically like Trump - purely transactional. They will give nothing unless they get something.

I do agree Obama handed Trump a booming economy but Trump did well irrespective to enhance it.

I also want to believe the “cooperation” agenda as you put it but over the years I have a skeptic view about the same as that of it being corporate driven.

Also it seems like a very “Anglo” co op (no offense).

Irrespective so you are saying Trump was good for Americans as it was transactional but Biden is better for overall world peace?

 

[Robert]

I do agree Obama handed Trump a booming economy but Trump did well irrespective to enhance it.

I also want to believe the “cooperation” agenda as you put it but over the years I have a skeptic view about the same as that of it being corporate driven.

Also it seems like a very “Anglo” co op (no offense).

None taken, it's an Atlantic / European axis though the World Bank and GATT/WTO service nearly everyone. Though the EU did write off nearly all African debt, so not always corporation-driven.

The Arab League and ECOWAS are cooperative regional organisations.

Irrespective so you are saying Trump was good for Americans as it was transactional but Biden is better for overall world peace?

I am not sure he was good for Americans as he used social media to divide the country, and gave comfort to white supremacy.

As for Biden and Europe - pretty much. Trump was a most unreliable ally. Biden will assist NATO states who are under attack.

Though he might also fall asleep and headbutt the nuclear button by accident

 

[Technics 1210]

None taken, it's an Atlantic / European axis though the World Bank and GATT/WTO service nearly everyone. Though the EU did write off nearly all African debt, so not always corporation-driven.

The Arab League and ECOWAS are cooperative regional organisations.



I am not sure he was good for Americans as he used social media to divide the country, and gave comfort to white supremacy.

As for Biden and Europe - pretty much. Trump was a most unreliable ally. Biden will assist NATO states who are under attack.

Though he might also fall asleep and headbutt the nuclear button by accident

The USA was already divided, the gap widened after the crash of 2008. Obama did very little for blacks; Trump the opposite. Obama bailed out the bankers while the middle class lost their jobs/homes etc.

The economy wasn't booming under Obama. Obama inherited a stick market at near bottom where they only was up. Trump inherited an economy that was fuelled by QE, no real growth other than pumped up asset values.

Technically the hasn't been a boom since the late 80s. It's been QE and share buybacks ever since.

 

[JaDed]

None taken, it's an Atlantic / European axis though the World Bank and GATT/WTO service nearly everyone. Though the EU did write off nearly all African debt, so not always corporation-driven.

The Arab League and ECOWAS are cooperative regional organisations.



I am not sure he was good for Americans as he used social media to divide the country, and gave comfort to white supremacy.

As for Biden and Europe - pretty much. Trump was a most unreliable ally. Biden will assist NATO states who are under attack.

Though he might also fall asleep and headbutt the nuclear button by accident

The idea he was bad for America race wise is somewhat blown up.

It’s surprising how right wing get called out grouping but when Democrats do it it’s called protest and they got voted to power.

Trump was pulling out troops giving incentives to gas and electric companies , even BIG Tech was promoted , now there is enough support to disrupt /break Big Tech because Democrats(Obama used social media to his advantage) cN end up on losing side and want it censored.

Irrespective, I hope this whole war mongering doesn’t blow up on NATO’s face, Russia is defn not a champ it was obvious when it let Azerbaijan do what it wants , but I’m sure they will not backdown on east Europe.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60220702

<b>Ukraine tensions: Putin accuses US of using Ukraine as tool against Russia</b>

Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused the US of seeking to use Ukraine as a tool to constrain Russia and not caring about Ukraine's actual interests.

Saying the US had ignored Russian concerns, he again attacked the idea of Ukraine joining the Nato security bloc.

What, he asked, would happen if Ukraine was allowed to join Nato and then tried to take Crimea back from Russia.

Tension is high over a Russian troop build-up close to Ukraine's borders.

Russia denies Western accusations that it is planning an invasion, nearly eight years after the annexation of Crimea and a bloody rebellion in Ukraine's eastern regions.

Moscow in turn accuses the Ukrainian government of failing to implement an international deal to restore peace to the eastern regions, where at least 14,000 people have been killed and Russian-backed rebels control swathes of territory.

The Russian president was making his first significant public comments in weeks on the tensions over Ukraine.

He told reporters: "It seems to me that the United States is not so much concerned about the security of Ukraine... but its main task is to contain Russia's development.

“In this sense Ukraine itself is just a tool to reach this goal."

The US, he said, had ignored Moscow's concerns in its response to Russian demands for legally binding security guarantees, including a block on Nato's further expansion to the east.

"Imagine that Ukraine is a Nato member and a military operation [to regain Crimea] begins," the Russian leader said.

“What - are we going to fight with Nato? Has anyone thought about this? It seems like they haven't."

Earlier on Tuesday, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken told his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, by phone that it was time for Moscow to pull its troops back from the borders if it was sincere about not planning to invade, a senior state department official was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

Mr Blinken added that the US and its allies were willing to continue substantive discussions with Russia on mutual security concerns.

In Ukraine itself, visiting UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned that a Russian invasion would lead to a military and humanitarian disaster.

After talks with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the capital Kyiv, he told reporters that it was vital that Russia stepped back.

If Russia invaded, he warned, the Ukrainian army would fight back. "There are 200,000 men and women under arms in Ukraine," he said.

"They will put up a very, very fierce and bloody resistance and I think that parents, mothers, in Russia, should reflect on that fact.

“And I hope very much that President Putin steps back from the path of conflict and that we engage in dialogue."

Mr Zelensky said that it would "not be a war between Ukraine and Russia - this would be a war in Europe, a full-scale one".

 

[Robert]

The idea he was bad for America race wise is somewhat blown up.

It’s surprising how right wing get called out grouping but when Democrats do it it’s called protest and they got voted to power.

Trump was pulling out troops giving incentives to gas and electric companies , even BIG Tech was promoted , now there is enough support to disrupt /break Big Tech because Democrats(Obama used social media to his advantage) cN end up on losing side and want it censored.

Irrespective, I hope this whole war mongering doesn’t blow up on NATO’s face, Russia is defn not a champ it was obvious when it let Azerbaijan do what it wants , but I’m sure they will not backdown on east Europe.

Calling white supremacists "very fine people"? Come on.

Big Tech isn't being censored - it is banning people who lie and lie from its platforms.

I'm not seeing any warmongering, I'm seeing NATO states arming a nation to defend itself from an aggressor.

 

[Technics 1210]

Calling white supremacists "very fine people"? Come on.

Big Tech isn't being censored - it is banning people who lie and lie from its platforms.

I'm not seeing any warmongering, I'm seeing NATO states arming a nation to defend itself from an aggressor.

Big tech is censoring people who do not subscribe to the MSM line. What you call a lie is purely subjective. If someone says they do not want the covid vaccine, and Doctors support their view, it isn’t a lie - they a censored because it’s a threat.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

I'm not seeing any warmongering, I'm seeing NATO states arming a nation to defend itself from an aggressor.

What is warmongering for you? Not a rhetorical question. I genuinely want to know what does act of warmongering mean for you.

 

[JaDed]

Calling white supremacists "very fine people"? Come on.

Big Tech isn't being censored - it is banning people who lie and lie from its platforms.

I'm not seeing any warmongering, I'm seeing NATO states arming a nation to defend itself from an aggressor.

I cannot label every Trump supporter as white supremacist , there were many disenfranchised voters as well waiting to be heard, Canada with their Truck protests are feeling the heat too now.

Lying? The amount of nonsense that came out from CDC in last 2 years has been terrible to say the least no consequences, while I’ll always be a fan of BIG tech but man Liberals are making sure they toe a line if not they will be separated, it’s comical to see the dictatorship tendencies or Liberals/Left and innovation will suffer.

Russia can play the card of Ukrainians(certain areas) being oppressed as well, a card played by Western Alliances often since world war 2.

Irrespective I obviously will be supporting Western nations but hopefully they have calculated all this because right now they are just shooting up oil prices increasing inflation benefiting Russia.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Putin says West has 'ignored' Russia's security concerns


...

"But it is already clear that fundamental Russian concerns ended up being ignored," he said, before adding the Kremlin is still poring over the US and NATO's feedback.

"I hope that in the end we will find a solution, although it will not be simple," Putin said, indicating he was ready for more talks with the West, which has accused Russia of amassing more than 100,000 troops on its border with Ukraine ahead of a planned invasion of its neighbor.

"It seems to me that the United States is not so much concerned about the security of Ukraine but its main task is to contain Russia's development," Putin said.

"In this sense Ukraine itself is just a tool to reach this goal," he said.
...

Source: https://www.dw.com/en/putin-says-west-has-ignored-russias-security-concerns/a-60619782

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60220702

<b>Ukraine tensions: Putin accuses US of using Ukraine as tool against Russia</b>

Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused the US of seeking to use Ukraine as a tool to constrain Russia and not caring about Ukraine's actual interests.

Saying the US had ignored Russian concerns, he again attacked the idea of Ukraine joining the Nato security bloc.

What, he asked, would happen if Ukraine was allowed to join Nato and then tried to take Crimea back from Russia.

Tension is high over a Russian troop build-up close to Ukraine's borders.

Russia denies Western accusations that it is planning an invasion, nearly eight years after the annexation of Crimea and a bloody rebellion in Ukraine's eastern regions.

Moscow in turn accuses the Ukrainian government of failing to implement an international deal to restore peace to the eastern regions, where at least 14,000 people have been killed and Russian-backed rebels control swathes of territory.

The Russian president was making his first significant public comments in weeks on the tensions over Ukraine.

He told reporters: "It seems to me that the United States is not so much concerned about the security of Ukraine... but its main task is to contain Russia's development.

“In this sense Ukraine itself is just a tool to reach this goal."

The US, he said, had ignored Moscow's concerns in its response to Russian demands for legally binding security guarantees, including a block on Nato's further expansion to the east.

"Imagine that Ukraine is a Nato member and a military operation [to regain Crimea] begins," the Russian leader said.

“What - are we going to fight with Nato? Has anyone thought about this? It seems like they haven't."

Earlier on Tuesday, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken told his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, by phone that it was time for Moscow to pull its troops back from the borders if it was sincere about not planning to invade, a senior state department official was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

Mr Blinken added that the US and its allies were willing to continue substantive discussions with Russia on mutual security concerns.

In Ukraine itself, visiting UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned that a Russian invasion would lead to a military and humanitarian disaster.

After talks with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the capital Kyiv, he told reporters that it was vital that Russia stepped back.

If Russia invaded, he warned, the Ukrainian army would fight back. "There are 200,000 men and women under arms in Ukraine," he said.

"They will put up a very, very fierce and bloody resistance and I think that parents, mothers, in Russia, should reflect on that fact.

“And I hope very much that President Putin steps back from the path of conflict and that we engage in dialogue."

Mr Zelensky said that it would "not be a war between Ukraine and Russia - this would be a war in Europe, a full-scale one".

Someone from the EU should give a call to this Zelensky-Zionist rat. Talk about daydreaming

 

[KingKhanWC]

Putin is making a mockery of the Western warmongers.

He has some troops and machinery near the border, wthin his own territory. This gave the US and its lapdogs a trigger to make some moves, hoping Putin would invade, be labelled the aggressor so they can have the moral high ground arming facsits.

Meanwhile Ukraine is being slowly destroyed without Putin lifting a finger. Population of Ukraine was 50+ million a few decades ago, now its around 30 million. Another decade Putin will be able to walk into Ukraine who will vote to join Russia, as he did with Crimea.

Putin intelligence 9 - Biden/Boris/Macron an the rest combinbed = 2.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Putin is making a mockery of the Western warmongers.

He has some troops and machinery near the border, wthin his own territory. This gave the US and its lapdogs a trigger to make some moves, hoping Putin would invade, be labelled the aggressor so they can have the moral high ground arming facsits.

Meanwhile Ukraine is being slowly destroyed without Putin lifting a finger. Population of Ukraine was 50+ million a few decades ago, now its around 30 million. Another decade Putin will be able to walk into Ukraine who will vote to join Russia, as he did with Crimea.

Putin intelligence 9 - Biden/Boris/Macron an the rest combinbed = 2.

Only thing I'm concerned about is I hope Putin has prepared a replacement for him as he's getting older.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Sovereign Ukraine! [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] [MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION]

 

[Robert]

What is warmongering for you? Not a rhetorical question. I genuinely want to know what does act of warmongering mean for you.

Talking up the case for war.

NATO is doing the opposite, applying deterrence against war by making it uneconomic for Putin to attack and invade Ukraine further.

 

[Robert]

I cannot label every Trump supporter as white supremacist , there were many disenfranchised voters as well waiting to be heard, Canada with their Truck protests are feeling the heat too now.

Lying? The amount of nonsense that came out from CDC in last 2 years has been terrible to say the least no consequences, while I’ll always be a fan of BIG tech but man Liberals are making sure they toe a line if not they will be separated, it’s comical to see the dictatorship tendencies or Liberals/Left and innovation will suffer.

Russia can play the card of Ukrainians(certain areas) being oppressed as well, a card played by Western Alliances often since world war 2.

Irrespective I obviously will be supporting Western nations but hopefully they have calculated all this because right now they are just shooting up oil prices increasing inflation benefiting Russia.

You’re all over the place here. Are you talking about Trump, censorship, the pandemic or Russia-Ukraine?

 

[Robert]

Putin is making a mockery of the Western warmongers.

He has some troops and machinery near the border, wthin his own territory. This gave the US and its lapdogs a trigger to make some moves, hoping Putin would invade, be labelled the aggressor so they can have the moral high ground arming facsits.

Meanwhile Ukraine is being slowly destroyed without Putin lifting a finger. Population of Ukraine was 50+ million a few decades ago, now its around 30 million. Another decade Putin will be able to walk into Ukraine who will vote to join Russia, as he did with Crimea.

Putin intelligence 9 - Biden/Boris/Macron an the rest combinbed = 2.

I’m not so sure.

Putin had boxed himself into a corner - he has to invade. If he doesn’t invade he will look weak and there will be a Kremlin coup and he will be replaced.

And if he does invade, he will get into an economically ruinous quagmire. Ukraine will fight and they have a big army, getting stronger every day as weapons arrive and patriotic citizens join the reserve forces.

As for Ukraine voting to join Russia, perhaps you missed the enormous Euromaidan demonstrations. The majority leans West.

 

[James]

I’m not so sure.

Putin had boxed himself into a corner - he has to invade. If he doesn’t invade he will look weak and there will be a Kremlin coup and he will be replaced.

And if he does invade, he will get into an economically ruinous quagmire. Ukraine will fight and they have a big army, getting stronger every day as weapons arrive and patriotic citizens join the reserve forces.

As for Ukraine voting to join Russia, perhaps you missed the enormous Euromaidan demonstrations. The majority leans West.

Yes it remains to be seen whether this one will end up being another shrewd Putin move, or if he has made an uncharacteristic error and overreach which ends up costing him some credibility.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Talking up the case for war.

NATO is doing the opposite, applying deterrence against war by making it uneconomic for Putin to attack and invade Ukraine further.

Nah. Nato is divided. At least for this matter it is more evident that ever before.

Do you believe USA/UK/global Zionist lobby are on the same page as the EU part of Nato?

 

[Robert]

Nah. Nato is divided. At least for this matter it is more evident that ever before.

Do you believe USA/UK/global Zionist lobby are on the same page as the EU part of Nato?

What you term the global Zionist lobby is undefined. If something cannot be defined, it is operationally meaningless and we drift into conspiracy thinking.

I don't believe there is a USA/UK/global Zionist lobby. It's conflating different things. Some nations are more pro-Israel than others, especially USA. But Israel has nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine. They are concerned with Syria and Iran.

UK and USA are NATO states so there is an overlap there.

 

[Robert]

Only thing I'm concerned about is I hope Putin has prepared a replacement for him as he's getting older.

What I hope is that Russia becomes a functional democracy with a free press, and starts cooperating with the international community to solve the world's biggest problem, which is climate change.

This will be difficult as they have not had a democracy for long, only under Yeltsin, and even he rigged the 1996 election. They went from Empire to communist dictatorship to pseudo-democracy to oligarchy.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

What you term the global Zionist lobby is undefined. If something cannot be defined, it is operationally meaningless and we drift into conspiracy thinking.

I don't believe there is a USA/UK/global Zionist lobby. It's conflating different things. Some nations are more pro-Israel than others, especially USA. But Israel has nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine. They are concerned with Syria and Iran.

UK and USA are NATO states so there is an overlap there.

Baby steps but you will eventually reach there!

 

[Technics 1210]

Putin has demonstrated how weak NATO is. UK And Germany refusing to send troops To Ukraine is the biggest bata chapal on the faces of NATO supporters.

Plus if you factor in the biggest NATO threat to Russia is economic sanctions, yes economic NOT military, proves NATO is nothing but a relic of the West. Remember, Russia annexed Crimea. What was NATO's response? Exactly - ZILCH.

 

[the Great Khan]

I’m not so sure.

Putin had boxed himself into a corner - he has to invade. If he doesn’t invade he will look weak and there will be a Kremlin coup and he will be replaced.

And if he does invade, he will get into an economically ruinous quagmire. Ukraine will fight and they have a big army, getting stronger every day as weapons arrive and patriotic citizens join the reserve forces.

As for Ukraine voting to join Russia, perhaps you missed the enormous Euromaidan demonstrations. The majority leans West.

I think you need to stop drinking the centrist kool aid. Putin I totally secure. He will get more influence in Ukraine once this crisis dissipates. Already many Ukrainians are divided on whether to join nato. And now many will be wondering whether its worth the price as the West isn't going to fight for them.

Putin has what he wants from the Ukraine which is the crimea and with rising consternation amongst the Ukrainian populace don't be surprised if they vote this govt out and opt for a more pragmatic govt one wants quiet borders.

Russia is just making a point about Nato. Nothing more. The US is the one that is keen on some kind of mistake. Its not going to happen. The talks will continue and Putin has plenty of time to wait it out. Europe is not going to be able to sustain the pressure. They are already cracking. And Germany is against it so expect a reasonable agreement to be worked out.

What Putin should do is force a referendum on nato in Ukraine when the time is right. He will probably win that..left bank and right bank Ukraine haven't always been on the same page..it goes back at least about 300 to 400 years of politics etc..

Ultimately this is a mere distraction i suspect the real game is still to unfold.

 

[Robert]

I think you need to stop drinking the centrist kool aid. Putin I totally secure. He will get more influence in Ukraine once this crisis dissipates. Already many Ukrainians are divided on whether to join nato. And now many will be wondering whether its worth the price as the West isn't going to fight for them.

Putin has what he wants from the Ukraine which is the crimea and with rising consternation amongst the Ukrainian populace don't be surprised if they vote this govt out and opt for a more pragmatic govt one wants quiet borders.

Russia is just making a point about Nato. Nothing more. The US is the one that is keen on some kind of mistake. Its not going to happen. The talks will continue and Putin has plenty of time to wait it out. Europe is not going to be able to sustain the pressure. They are already cracking. And Germany is against it so expect a reasonable agreement to be worked out.

What Putin should do is force a referendum on nato in Ukraine when the time is right. He will probably win that..left bank and right bank Ukraine haven't always been on the same page..it goes back at least about 300 to 400 years of politics etc..

Ultimately this is a mere distraction i suspect the real game is still to unfold.

Not quite clear what you are saying here. I don’t know what centrist kool-aid is.

Putin is a dictator, so doesn’t have procedures or systems to keep him in like a Prime Minister in a democracy. He’s basically a mob boss. If weakness is perceived then his capos will turn on him.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Putin still has the upper hand. The world is scrambling and all he has done is move some troops within his borders.

From what I am seeing - the Americans are starting to backtrack and are telling Ukraine there wont be any boots on the ground if Russia invades.

Britain has once again been badly let down by its diplomats and government. The Russians have said British diplomacy means nothing and are citing Iraq to show how British intelligence is always flawed.

Nato expansionism has been stopped by Putin. The next step is that Turkey will distance itself further from Nato and perhaps even leave. Turkey has the second biggest army in NATO but is presenting itself as an alternative leader to Saudi Arabia for Muslim countries.

They don't want to be dragged into a conflict and be seen as poodles of the Americans, especially with Russia who enjoy a lot of goodwill within the masses of the Muslim world.

 

[Technics 1210]

NATO (the West) are in actual fact in awe of Putin. West was happy to dismantle USSR, then along comes a guy who raises Russia from the ashes in no time.

The reality is Putin didn’t have to do much. NATO is weak as it is, and most of the globe despise the West more than Russia. Putin just played off the weaknesses and hatred.

 

[Lego20]

Putin has demonstrated how weak NATO is. UK And Germany refusing to send troops To Ukraine is the biggest bata chapal on the faces of NATO supporters.

Plus if you factor in the biggest NATO threat to Russia is economic sanctions, yes economic NOT military, proves NATO is nothing but a relic of the West. Remember, Russia annexed Crimea. What was NATO's response? Exactly - ZILCH.

Ukraine is not part of NATO. No promises/obligations broken by US/NATO by not sending military against Russia.

Size of Russian econony is smaller than New York. Only thing going for them is natural petroleum resources and mega nukes mounted atop the new hypersonic missiles.

In case of an actual war, minus the nukes, NATO would crush Russia, even if partnered with China.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

What I hope is that Russia becomes a functional democracy with a free press, and starts cooperating with the international community to solve the world's biggest problem, which is climate change.

This will be difficult as they have not had a democracy for long, only under Yeltsin, and even he rigged the 1996 election. They went from Empire to communist dictatorship to pseudo-democracy to oligarchy.

The world doesn't need your fraudocracy. Keep your western political system to yourself. China has rejected it, Iran has rejected it, Russia has rejected it. InshaAllah, soon Pakistan will break free of these shackles.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Ukraine is not part of NATO. No promises/obligations broken by US/NATO by not sending military against Russia.

Size of Russian econony is smaller than New York. Only thing going for them is natural petroleum resources and mega nukes mounted atop the new hypersonic missiles.

In case of an actual war, minus the nukes, NATO would crush Russia, even if partnered with China.

NATO has soldiers with wings or what?

 

[Lego20]

NATO has soldiers with wings or what?

Nato countries:
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States

This is a huge mature alliance with leading advancements in defense tech + years of experience patrolling/policing the high seas.

I do applaud and admire Putin for standing up to a behemoth but sorry, minus the nukes, he will be fighting on thin ice with NATO (i.e never). Would love to see if he actually acts on Ukraine and what his plans are against the subsequent economic and financial sanctions - sure he must have gamed that to act like this.

 

[Robert]

The world doesn't need your fraudocracy. Keep your western political system to yourself. China has rejected it, Iran has rejected it, Russia has rejected it. InshaAllah, soon Pakistan will break free of these shackles.

China never tried it.

Iran had it with Mossadeq but CIA/MI6 messed that up and installed a despot.in a disgraceful episode.

Russia was seized by one dictator after another.

What you are saying here is that you like having no human rights. That you like being a serf to a strongman n a totalitarian state, instead of taking responsibility as a citizen.

 

[Robert]

Nato countries:
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States

This is a huge mature alliance with leading advancements in defense tech + years of experience patrolling/policing the high seas.

I do applaud and admire Putin for standing up to a behemoth but sorry, minus the nukes, he will be fighting on thin ice with NATO (i.e never). Would love to see if he actually acts on Ukraine and what his plans are against the subsequent economic and financial sanctions - sure he must have gamed that to act like this.

You want to see a fledgling democracy conquered by a despot.

 

[Lego20]

You want to see a fledgling democracy conquered by a despot.

No I dont wish for that. I want to know Putin's contingency plan against financial sanctions or is he just posturing based on wrong assumptions.

 

[Robert]

No I dont wish for that. I want to know Putin's contingency plan against financial sanctions or is he just posturing based on wrong assumptions.

OK.

I am opposed to financial sanctions which will hit the Russian people. I want personal sanctions on Putin and the oligarchs. That will deter aggression against Ukraine and stop their corrosive influence on Western democracies.

 

[the Great Khan]

Nato countries:
Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States

This is a huge mature alliance with leading advancements in defense tech + years of experience patrolling/policing the high seas.

I do applaud and admire Putin for standing up to a behemoth but sorry, minus the nukes, he will be fighting on thin ice with NATO (i.e never). Would love to see if he actually acts on Ukraine and what his plans are against the subsequent economic and financial sanctions - sure he must have gamed that to act like this.

There's no such thing as minus nukes. If nato and Russia got to war they will be used. Hence why they wont go to war. All this chest thumping based on paper stats is for bean counters and Internet fan boys..war is a different beast. When it starts it has a mind of its own..

I can guarantee there won't be a war with Russia over Ukraine. Ukraine isn't worth it. The key was crimea and Russia has taken it. They needed to stop Russia back then but failed miserably.

 

[JaDed]

People don’t realize NATO is already ahead irrespective of Putin’s moves.

The best brains of Eastern Europe and many from Russia already work in states or for NATO countries.

The only reason why Russia is always able to play these games is because they have nothing to lose whereas developed NATO countries are already ahead in HDI.

 

[Lego20]

There's no such thing as minus nukes. If nato and Russia got to war they will be used. Hence why they wont go to war. All this chest thumping based on paper stats is for bean counters and Internet fan boys..war is a different beast. When it starts it has a mind of its own..

I can guarantee there won't be a war with Russia over Ukraine. Ukraine isn't worth it. The key was crimea and Russia has taken it. They needed to stop Russia back then but failed miserably.

USA/NATO have said this officially there will be no armed conflict with Russia over Ukraine. Their response is already drafted which is financial sanctions. The only anomoly is will Germany let it impose on Russia and itself.

 

[Technics 1210]

People don’t realize NATO is already ahead irrespective of Putin’s moves.

The best brains of Eastern Europe and many from Russia already work in states or for NATO countries.

The only reason why Russia is always able to play these games is because they have nothing to lose whereas developed NATO countries are already ahead in HDI.

NATO so far advance that Putin snatched Crimea from under their feet.

 

[JaDed]

NATO so far advance that Putin snatched Crimea from under their feet.

Yup, as I said if NATO attacks it’s NATO that has more to lose than Russia.

UKRAINE as a whole is a bigger fish though because UK has also said explicitly they would send troops IF Russia attacked but again NATO would have more to lose by sending troops.

 

[JaDed]

USA/NATO have said this officially there will be no armed conflict with Russia over Ukraine. Their response is already drafted which is financial sanctions. The only anomoly is will Germany let it impose on Russia and itself.

This is all Germany would do

https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/02...state-broadcaster-rt-de-due-to-license-issues

 

[Robert]

This is all Germany would do &#55357;&#56834;

https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/02...state-broadcaster-rt-de-due-to-license-issues

Since they began their military again in 1956, Germany has been the most pacifist of European nations. They will not deploy troops overseas in combat roles. They will fly tankers and run field hospitals for other NATO states on foreign deployments such as Afghanistan, but will not take up arms other than to defend NATO states if Article 5 is declared.

 

[Robert]

NATO so far advance that Putin snatched Crimea from under their feet.

There was no formal invasion. The grab of Crimea was through alternative warfare techniques:

- social media disinfo
- stirring up trouble between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians
- cyberattacks on power and water plants
- causing industrial strikes, civil unrest and a general collapse of order

....before the "green men" - wearing no Russian military insignia - took over. The green men were ethnic Russians armed by Moscow.

This is a different matter with 100K Russian troops, tanks, artillery and aircraft on the Russia-Ukraine border and looks like imminent Russian invasion. Much easier to conceptualise and therefore deal with.

 

[JaDed]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey...rone-deals-as-erdogan-visits-kyiv-11643911532

Turkey, Ukraine Sign Free-Trade, Drone Deals as Erdogan Visits Kyiv


The Turkish president attempts to mediate between Ukraine and Russia in a bid to assert his country’s role as an aspiring power

 

[Chief Destroyer]

China never tried it.

Iran had it with Mossadeq but CIA/MI6 messed that up and installed a despot.in a disgraceful episode.

Russia was seized by one dictator after another.

What you are saying here is that you like having no human rights. That you like being a serf to a strongman n a totalitarian state, instead of taking responsibility as a citizen.

Russian people are so stupid they keep voting for dictator after dictator. Lol, the brainwashing on this one.

Empty words. Your fraud two party system only creates an illusion of human rights. Last 300 years, no one has committed more barbaric acts than your people. Looting, killing and pillaging the whole world. Bombing countries then acting like reformers. Stop with your damned lies.

 

[Maher96]

Ukraine tensions: US alleges Russian plot to fake invasion pretext


Russia is planning to fabricate a pretext for an invasion of Ukraine, by falsely blaming Ukrainian military for an attack on Russian-backed separatists or Russia itself, US officials say.

One option Russia is said to be considering is to stage and film a fake attack, with graphic images of an explosion showing numerous casualties.

The US and Nato are concerned at the massing of Russian forces near Ukraine.

Russia denies planning to invade, saying the troops are there for drills.

They currently number about 100,000.

The tensions come eight years after Russia annexed Ukraine's southern Crimea peninsula and backed a bloody rebellion in the eastern Donbas region.


Senior US administration officials said the alleged operation, planned by Russian security services, would show images of civilian casualties in Donbas, eastern Ukraine, in order to generate outrage against the Ukrainian authorities.

This could then be used to justify an attack on Ukraine, the officials said.

The plan could involve staging and filming a faked attack, they said.

It would show corpses and destroyed locations, faked Ukrainian military equipment, Turkish-made drones and actors playing Russian-speaking mourners, they said.

But the officials stressed that this was only one of the options Russia was considering, and said they were publicising it in an effort to "dissuade Russia from its intended course of action".

UK Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said the US intelligence "is clear and shocking evidence of Russia's unprovoked aggression and underhand activity to destabilise Ukraine".

"This bellicose intent towards a sovereign, democratic country is completely unacceptable and we condemn it in the strongest possible terms. The UK and our allies will continue to expose Russian subterfuge and propaganda and call it out for what it is," she said in a statement.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov responded to the reports.

"This is not the first promise of its kind [to release details about Russian provocation]," he said, quoted by Tass news agency. "Something similar was also said before, but nothing came of it."


News of the alleged plot came a day after the US said it was sending more troops to Nato allies in Europe.

Russia said the move was "destructive" and showed that its concerns about Nato's eastward expansion were justified.

Rivalry between Russia and the US, which still possess the world's biggest nuclear arsenals, dates back to the Cold War (1947-89). Ukraine was then a crucial part of the communist Soviet Union.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60248259

 

[Robert]

Russian people are so stupid they keep voting for dictator after dictator. Lol, the brainwashing on this one.

Empty words. Your fraud two party system only creates an illusion of human rights. Last 300 years, no one has committed more barbaric acts than your people. Looting, killing and pillaging the whole world. Bombing countries then acting like reformers. Stop with your damned lies.

People who disagree with you are brainwashed liars, are they? There is no need to be so rude. Please be polite.

Russia does not have free and fair elections. They are rigged. The last opposition leader was confined to his home and forcibly prevented from campaigning. Now he is in jail without trial.

You seem to be confusing UK with USA. For a start there are more than two parties here. We have the right to work, the right to own property, the right to worship how we wish, the right to face our accuser in a fair and open court of our peers, the right to marry, the right to travel, the right of free speech, the right to choose our representatives.

These are not illusions. They are enshrined in UK law.

Things are not perfect here. But the European liberal democratic order is fairer to the people than any system tried so far anywhere else in the history of the world.

 

[James]

I tend to lean towards the quote ‘democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others’ — it is a deeply flawed system and I’m not happy with numerous aspects of it, but it’s still arguably preferable to the other alternatives that have been tried so far.

 

[Technics 1210]

Democracy and free press are a myth and illusion in the UK. No need to rehash the how Remainers were hellbent on over turning democracy in the UK, and the flawed FPTP system too. As for free press, no chance. The press is very swift to criticise human rights in Russia, criticise human rights in China, criticise human rights in Saudi Arabia, but are dead silent on human rights in Isreal. Then again it’s no big secret on who owns the press/media in the West. Oh the Royal family are pretty much off limits from the press too.

 

[Robert]

I tend to lean towards the quote ‘democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others’ — it is a deeply flawed system and I’m not happy with numerous aspects of it, but it’s still arguably preferable to the other alternatives that have been tried so far.

Churchill said that.

The Chinese would say democracy makes for bad decision making - look at how the people voted for Trump and Brexit. Better to leave decision-making to a small intelligentsia who know what is best for the masses.

But their system curtails individual rights and delivers human rights abuses on vast and shocking scale, while democracy does not.

 

[Technics 1210]

Churchill said that.

The Chinese would say democracy makes for bad decision making - look at how the people voted for Trump and Brexit. Better to leave decision-making to a small intelligentsia who know what is best for the masses.

But their system curtails individual rights and delivers human rights abuses on vast and shocking scale, while democracy does not.

Hang on, if you believe it is better to leave decision making to a small intelligentsia who know what is best for the masses - then why even bother with democracy? Sounds to me China and Russia model is spot on then.

 

[Technics 1210]

I tend to lean towards the quote ‘democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others’ — it is a deeply flawed system and I’m not happy with numerous aspects of it, but it’s still arguably preferable to the other alternatives that have been tried so far.

The reality is that democracy is detrimental in the long run. Look at the state of USA, UK, and EU - all in the pits from social to economics.

Countries which have an authoritarian model of governance achieve more. China is now the second largest economy in the world and has pulled 100s of million out of poverty. Russia has completely rebuilt itself in a mere 20 years since the collapse of USSR. UAE is one of the fastest developing regions in the world and you have Westerners wanting to move there! Meanwhile UK is still deciding on the 3rd Runway and HS2!

 

[James]

The reality is that democracy is detrimental in the long run. Look at the state of USA, UK, and EU - all in the pits from social to economics.

Countries which have an authoritarian model of governance achieve more. China is now the second largest economy in the world and has pulled 100s of million out of poverty. Russia has completely rebuilt itself in a mere 20 years since the collapse of USSR. UAE is one of the fastest developing regions in the world and you have Westerners wanting to move there! Meanwhile UK is still deciding on the 3rd Runway and HS2!

The concern for me with authoritarianism / dictatorship is how large and powerful the state becomes very quickly at the expense of people’s everyday rights.

It seems to me worth a bit of paralysed discussion and dreary never-ending debate so we don’t all have a chance of getting “disappeared” overnight or members of our family being thrown in prison if we accidentally say or do the “wrong” thing at some point.

 

[Technics 1210]

There was no formal invasion. The grab of Crimea was through alternative warfare techniques:

- social media disinfo
- stirring up trouble between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians
- cyberattacks on power and water plants
- causing industrial strikes, civil unrest and a general collapse of order

....before the "green men" - wearing no Russian military insignia - took over. The green men were ethnic Russians armed by Moscow.

This is a different matter with 100K Russian troops, tanks, artillery and aircraft on the Russia-Ukraine border and looks like imminent Russian invasion. Much easier to conceptualise and therefore deal with.

All the points you have listed, the West is guilty of too - add regime change and Russia doesn’t hold a candle to what USA has achieved in the past 70 odd years.

100K troops tanks etc is indicative of an invasion, but parking weapons, nukes, missiles etc near the Russian border is indicative of NATO/Western aggression.

2 sides of the same coin.

Saying this NATO’s response to the annexation of Crimea says a lot - NATO is weak, and afraid of going to war with Russia.

 

[JaDed]

Socialism is the real culprit not Democracy, capitalism will always pave way for innovation.

China is still way below in innovation index compared to democracies, UAE -Russia as well relies heavy on oil/gas.

USA will do well till capitalism is true in its nature, once likes of Quad and Warrens take over then it’s doomed for sure.

 

[Robert]

The concern for me with authoritarianism / dictatorship is how large and powerful the state becomes very quickly at the expense of people’s everyday rights.

It seems to me worth a bit of paralysed discussion and dreary never-ending debate so we don’t all have a chance of getting “disappeared” overnight or members of our family being thrown in prison if we accidentally say or do the “wrong” thing at some point.

Exactly - I don’t really care that autocracies “achieve more” - I care that the people are free.

Norway and Sweden are my model states. Very liberal democracies. Capitalism yoked by strong governmental controls necessitating a high degree of social responsibility, with very educated and healthy populations.

 

[Technics 1210]

The concern for me with authoritarianism / dictatorship is how large and powerful the state becomes very quickly at the expense of people’s everyday rights.

It seems to me worth a bit of paralysed discussion and dreary never-ending debate so we don’t all have a chance of getting “disappeared” overnight or members of our family being thrown in prison if we accidentally say or do the “wrong” thing at some point.

It is a paralysed discussion to a point given what you deem to be valuable human rights, may not be the same to me. For example, is the right to vote a basic human right? UAE seem to be doing well devoid of democracy, yet [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] thinks that decisions should be made by a select few - the intelligent (he has insulted and offended an entire voter base), and overall given the democratic system in the UK, my vote doesn't mean much - it's weighted. My right to vote just gives me the subconscious comfort I have a voice. This is why Brexit means so much to me - one man one vote - true democracy which is rarely implemented or practiced in the West - and yet liberals who champion for freedom try and overturn a democratic result.

We still can get thrown in jail if we do or say something that is wrong/illegal thing in the UK, Anti-Semitism is a crime, yet Islamophobia is not, our data and digital footprint is constantly monitored, users are censored on social media, the authorities know every single movement of ours from being at home (GPS tracking), to taking public transports (Oyster and CCTV), to where we travel etc, to how much we earn, how much we spend, our shopping patterns etc - this isn't freedom. What freedom are we in the West really proud of? The difference is that freedom and rights in the UK/West are an illusion. The right for same sex marriage for an example had nothing to do with embracing Homosexuality but more to do with extending the same tax benefit to homosexual couples that heterosexuals coupled have.

On the topic of disappearing, Julian Assange is the prime example of how someone who resides in the West, criticised, and exposed the Western government, is now wanted. Not much different from Russia/China. Then of course there's the thought police in the West! Far worse than Russia/China, where one can be arrested for having an opinion, no action, just a thought, of denying the Holocaust).

We live in an illusion in the West. If people have food in the bellies, money in their pockets, we would all live happily ever after because these are the only things that matter to an individual thus there would be no need to criticise the powers to be.

Also we can save this drama about people caring for people's freedom when they do not have the balls to criticise Israel in public.

In essence, if people think the right to criticise the government, free press, and voting, are the hallmark of freedoms and rights - they are utterly deluded.

 

[Technics 1210]

Exactly - I don’t really care that autocracies “achieve more” - I care that the people are free.

Norway and Sweden are my model states. Very liberal democracies. Capitalism yoked by strong governmental controls necessitating a high degree of social responsibility, with very educated and healthy populations.

Really? I asked you twice on whether you believe Palestinians are living in apartheid in Israel, as per Amnesty international report, and what's your response? It's ok you know to criticise Israel, you have this "freedom" in the UK, then again, you should ask yourself if you truly have the freedom to criticise the power that influences your existence in the West.

Plus, I do not believe for a minute you should be championing democracy when you believe - and to quote - "Better to leave decision-making to a small intelligentsia who know what is best for the masses"

 

[KingKhanWC]

I’m not so sure.

Putin had boxed himself into a corner - he has to invade. If he doesn’t invade he will look weak and there will be a Kremlin coup and he will be replaced.

And if he does invade, he will get into an economically ruinous quagmire. Ukraine will fight and they have a big army, getting stronger every day as weapons arrive and patriotic citizens join the reserve forces.

As for Ukraine voting to join Russia, perhaps you missed the enormous Euromaidan demonstrations. The majority leans West.

Putin never wanted to invade.

Around half of Ukraine is pro-Russia, half of the land is controlled by them in the South. You see some demonstrations on the BBC and think all those in Ukraine hate Russia/Putin.

Now Russia and China have are both demanding Nato pulls out of plans for Ukraine.

In the end , Ukraine will be in ruins, Nato will not be in the land, while the south will end up in Russias hand.

It was clear a smart man as Putin would school idiots like Boris and a man who cant remember what day it is Biden.

 

[Technics 1210]

Putin never wanted to invade.

Around half of Ukraine is pro-Russia, half of the land is controlled by them in the South. You see some demonstrations on the BBC and think all those in Ukraine hate Russia/Putin.

Now Russia and China have are both demanding Nato pulls out of plans for Ukraine.

In the end , Ukraine will be in ruins, Nato will not be in the land, while the south will end up in Russias hand.

It was clear a smart man as Putin would school idiots like Boris and a man who cant remember what day it is Biden.

What was NATO's response when Russia allegedly carried out a Chemical attack on UK soil? Yup, nothing to worry about.

West/NATO will never go toe to toe with Russia. West has bullied weaker nations into submission but Russia is a different ball game. Meanwhile, senile Biden is boasting about some ISIS death, trying to divert the attention! He's already resigned to a potential invasion of Ukraine!

 

[KingKhanWC]

What was NATO's response when Russia allegedly carried out a Chemical attack on UK soil? Yup, nothing to worry about.

West/NATO will never go toe to toe with Russia. West has bullied weaker nations into submission but Russia is a different ball game. Meanwhile, senile Biden is boasting about some ISIS death, trying to divert the attention! He's already resigned to a potential invasion of Ukraine!

The suspects even managed to get away, the response was slower than an off spinner.

I personally feel those who want to use British troops & tax payers money to fight Russia, should first put on their tin hat and join the forces. The warmongers are usually sat in the comfort of their homes or offices in government.