Pakpak
ODI Debutant
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
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Nothing wrong with her complaint.
Harassment is the wrong term to use but that's incredibly unprofessional. Doctors cannot be doing stuff like this.
Well put.
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Nothing wrong with her complaint.
Harassment is the wrong term to use but that's incredibly unprofessional. Doctors cannot be doing stuff like this.
I looked at PMDC's conde of conduct and there are atleast two violations, never mind more. One specifically says any kind of advance towards a patient is gross misconduct. While the other says any sort of advance towards a patient from information gained via a medical context, such as a visit, is gross misconduct.
He has clearly broken rules so I am not sure we can defend him on that. We can debate on Chinoy's reaction all we want and that's fine, but there is no question on the validity of the doctor's reprimand.
Is this AKU a government owned institution or a private hospital?
If government owned, then can they fire a doctor like this without any enquiry?
Usually there is a proper investigation and a hearing before any action is taken. However it doesn't matter if its a private or public practice as far as I know, a doctor is licensed to work by the PMDC and any complaint goes through them.
I looked at PMDC's conde of conduct and there are atleast two violations, never mind more. One specifically says any kind of advance towards a patient is gross misconduct. While the other says any sort of advance towards a patient from information gained via a medical context, such as a visit, is gross misconduct.
He has clearly broken rules so I am not sure we can defend him on that. We can debate on Chinoy's reaction all we want and that's fine, but there is no question on the validity of the doctor's reprimand.
Wow name calling! and what's up with this 4 bachhon ka baap nonsense? He did a mistake and got punished. These kind of medias are those who fool the general public on topics they have no knowledge about.
Was there any advance.... A fb friend request isn’t advance...
A woman has to be put to her place if she questions male privilege.
A Facebook friend request from a unknown male is an advance. Unless you think this is common in our culture. Even in the West this sort of behavior is considered stupid. What next, friendship requests to our female relatives after they visit their doctors should be considered normal as well? Not only that but PMDC regulations forbid doctors from approaching patients via any means and information that they gained from their personal visit. He gained her personal details via her visit to the hospital. There are many more clauses he broke but for now these two are enough to land him in hot water.
A Facebook friend request from a unknown male is an advance. Unless you think this is common in our culture. Even in the West this sort of behavior is considered stupid. What next, friendship requests to our female relatives after they visit their doctors should be considered normal as well? Not only that but PMDC regulations forbid doctors from approaching patients via any means and information that they gained from their personal visit. He gained her personal details via her visit to the hospital. There are many more clauses he broke but for now these two are enough to land him in hot water.
If a female doctor sends request to female patient it’s still against regulations.... But not advance and not harassment... There was no harassment or advance but still unethical...
Obaid was wrong to say harassment and my family this and my family that... And to get male doctor fired over exaggerating...
Simple matter should have been doctor used private info = what punishment? No need to bring fake claims of harassment and feminism....But obv privileged celebrity who has never seen any hardship in life who can never understand how hard average Pakistani life is for both male or female needs to play victim......
Thanks for clarifying that
I spoke to some senior people in AKU and similar sentiments
Could have been handled better but the outcome is correct.
Its a simple concept which people who have some grudge against Chinoy are using for God knows what reason!
Its wrong and unethical to contact a patient in that way - that's all there is to it.
Its a simple concept which people who have some grudge against Chinoy are using for God knows what reason!
Its wrong and unethical to contact a patient in that way - that's all there is to it.
It's not true, the poster you quoted has no idea what he is talking about.
The General Medical Council in the UK allow doctors to have relationships with ex patients.
I was an ex-lawyer in the UK and now a medical student, which many know on here, while I may not it all I am pretty educated on the subject.
All medical records are confidential whether a patient is an ex-patient or not. The privacy protocols don't expire if a patient becomes an ex-patient. If a doctor uses a patient's file to send messages or uses the informtion in personal records to send facebook requests that'll land them easily in hot water. GMC is brutal with any kind of breach when it comes to ethics.
Educate yourself a bit, but then again who am I talking to?
lol. Your background is irrelevent.
Why dont you dispute what I have wrote. Let me repeat the General Medical Council in the UK ALLOWS doctors to have relationships with ex patients. So instead of boring me with your personal lame attacks, address my simple point.
If a doctor bumps into a patient at say a bar and they go out and then have a relationship that is different and ofcourse GMC has no problem with that, neither has any other medical council. However if a doctor opens up a patients' medical records and then uses the information to approach a patient that is a breach of ethics and every known medical protocol and this kind of behacior is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the PMDC rules of conduct. Which is what this doctor did.
Hence no point conflating both things. You're an expert at that so its not a surprise.
My background isn't really irrelvant. We spend 2 years studying an entire module of Social Medicine and Ethics, which hammers patient-doctor relationship and its santacity in terms of privacy and respect in every single paragraph.
I am thankful you're not a doctor.
Im sorry I must have missed the evidence where it proves the doctor opened up medical records to obtain information. Im not being sarcastic, Im asking you to show me if this is the case??
Anyone;s background is irrelevent if it conflicts with the facts.
I await this evidence.
The doctor sends the patient a friendship request, how else did he know her name? If he can prove he knows her through his social circle or through a friend or a relative then he's scot free. But otherwise his only connection to her is by her name, the name which was provided during a medical visit.
Also since you so kindly mentioned the GMC, according to the GMC:
-The doctor is forbidden to purse any relationship with a patient who is current
-If a patient is a former patient then the doctor's pursual could still be deemed improper and will be deemed improper if the patient can still become a current patient (eg in a GP's case) or if the patient has relatives that use the same doctor. The doctor is also forbidden to use a patient's, current or ex, information from a hospital or medical practice to approach him/her online or anywhere on social media or divulge anywhere that the patient has any connection to the doctor or the medical practice. Notice this refers to a patient who is only under the doctor's specific care. My background is very relevant here, please ask any British doctor, how seriously any kind of confidentiality is taken. I am not attacking you here just giving you facts. Its the backbone of the profession.
lol. He knows her name because they spoke to each other and also because she is well known. He didn't need to search the records unless he has memory issues and is ignorant to who the family are in the Pakistan. Im sure this woman has many requests sent to her on a regular basis. In fact I might find her and send one now.
I dont know you, so your personal life has no meaning to me in any discussion. If this was in England imo the doctor wouldnt have been sacked. You're entitled to yours.
lol. He knows her name because they spoke to each other and also because she is well known. He didn't need to search the records unless he has memory issues and is ignorant to who the family are in the Pakistan. Im sure this woman has many requests sent to her on a regular basis. In fact I might find her and send one now.
I dont know you, so your personal life has no meaning to me in any discussion. If this was in England imo the doctor wouldnt have been sacked. You're entitled to yours.
Bro
There is some confusion here so let me clear it by saying, I have spoken to some senior people at AKU and the behaviour of the doctor in this case has been deemed to be inappropriate. AKU HR have done what any OTHER hospital around the world would have done. The only argument is whether it should have been done in private or not. There is no other argument.
If this was England there'd a GMC disciplinary hearing, where both sides would be given the chance to present their views. All such hearings are open, the doctor would likely get an official warning on his record. According to the GMC's guidance any kind of social media contact is not allowed unless its on an official professional profile and only about professional matters and the doctors themselves are told to direct the patients to their professional profiles and disuade them from any further contact.
I know some of this already because my brain-dead friend a few years let loose a patient's name in a conversation to a third person, the patient found out and complained and he got a warning in the end. Ofcourse the doctor will not get sacked, unless its a sexual offence or unless there are a number of repeated offences.
The doctor should not get sacked here either, sacking is used as a last resort and for very serious offences or for repeated offences. But again it is at the PMDC's or the hospital's discretion.
You ofcourse will find my personal life irrelevant, as you should, but I have a lot knowledge on ethics and law especially when it comes to medicine. Otherwise I'd not bother posting, hence why you see me rarely post even in polticial threads now because I am out of the loop and simply not bothered.
Can you please provide a link to these guidelines (remember it's an ex patient once they leave the hospital)?
I find it strange the GMC allow doctors to have relationshps with ex patients but wont allow them to connect on social media.
If you have knowledge it's great but as you can appreciate when trying to understand any issue, one must use the evidence available.
No worries:
''Personal relationships with former patients may also be inappropriate depending on factors such as:
a. the length of time since the professional relationship ended (see paragraphs 9–10)
b. the nature of the previous professional relationship
c. whether the patient was particularly vulnerable at the time of the professional relationship, and whether they are still vulnerable (see paragraphs 11–13)
d. whether you will be caring for other members of the patient’s family.''
''12. Pursuing a relationship with a former patient is more likely to be (or be seen to be) an abuse of your position if you are a psychiatrist or a paediatrician.
13. Whatever your specialty, you must not pursue a personal relationship with a former patient who is still vulnerable. If the former patient was vulnerable at the time that you treated them, but is no longer vulnerable, you should be satisfied that:
the patient’s decisions and actions are not influenced by the previous relationship between you
you are not (and could not be seen to be) abusing your professional positio''
''Maintaining boundaries
10. Using social media also creates risks, particularly where social and professional boundaries become unclear. You must follow the guidance in Maintaining a professional boundary between you and your patient.6
11. If a patient contacts you about their care or other professional matters through your private profile, you should indicate that you cannot mix social and professional relationships and, where appropriate, direct them to your professional profile.''
www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/ethical_guidance/30173.asp
http://www.gmc-uk.org/guidance/ethical_guidance/30214.asp
Please look at the criteria which has to be satisifed when having a relationship with an ex-patient. Also in medical terms vulnerable means any patient under age of 16 or any adult who is still a patient (even you during a normal GP visit) or any old person that requires that constant care.
The number of complaints against doctors have been a record high in the last half-decade, that is not to say they were true or false. However bro GMC takes it very seriously, any complaint goes in a doctor's record and any kind of reprimand is publically available to the general public via the online register. Trust me on that. Especially due to the media outrage due to rags like Daily Mail, any offences even outside of medicine can land a doctor in deep trouble. Me and you do not get along, as I don't agree with what you say most of the time but here I am not arguing with you for the sake of it.If you talk to a lot of senior consultants or junior doctors you will hear ''get a chaperone'' a lot of times now, its for a reason.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
I think no.10 is a little ambigious. Im not sure if this constitues sending a friend request and it also seems to be a guidline rather than a strict policy.
You're correct, they're guidelines as situations in a medical context within a hospital are very fluid and constantly changing so rigid laws would not make sense, but still these guidelines are very stricly enforced. and you're also correct in the UK he would not be sacked. And a sacking would mean a tribunal, so he would get a warning maximum. I don't agree the doctor here should be sacked either I think I said it above, a warning would be enough or a reprimand. If its a private medical practice then it depends on the adminstration or the practioners who run it but I think MIG said the hospital will remove him.
Sharmeen Obaid is an opportunist, but she is right here. I would be fired too if I do the same to one of my patients and she lodges a complaint.
However, she did not have to make it public. Could have dealt with it privately.
People love getting likes, hence her public rant. It should have been dealt with a lot more privately.
I hope he doesn't get removed, not just the fact his career will be over but the shame on him and his family for simply hitting a button on fb. Thanks for the replies.
Yes, there was no need of shaming the doctor to this extent.
Well put. The same people would be foaming at the mouth if someone like this approached their sister, mother or wives or even daughters. How many of us would be comfortable taking them to the same doctor for any kind of intimate treatment if we knew he's sending us or other women facebook friendship requests?
Its a gross breach of ethics in every country and its there written in black and white in PMDC regulations.
Unethical yeah, but calling it harassment or getting him fired is a stretch. Also Chinoy is a hypocrite herself, she betrayed and exploited acid attack victims for fame.That IS harassment.
Sharmeen Obaid is an opportunist, but she is right here. I would be fired too if I do the same to one of my patients and she lodges a complaint.
However, she did not have to make it public. Could have dealt with it privately.
I hope someone provides livelihood to the doctor asap and alleviates his suffering and distress.
On a lighter note, a guy on fb posted a screenshot of his profile where he had 760 friend requests from girls/women from all over the world and he was like "Hey Sharmeen, should i file charges of harassment against all of them?".
I am very happy to see the vast majority of Pakistani people taking the position that the punishment was too excessive with respect to the offence.
These things needs to be highlighted otherwise how would patients be aware of this ethical principles and professional boundary of a doctor. I agree he was treated harshly well that's expected from a private establishment anywhere in this world. He should have been more careful.
If my friend is OK with so many friend requests from strangers, why is this girl not OK with one from an educated male doctor?
Unethical yeah, but calling it harassment or getting him fired is a stretch. Also Chinoy is a hypocrite herself, she betrayed and exploited acid attack victims for fame.That IS harassment.
What struck me the most is the facebook comments of some girls under that Waqar Zaka's post. They were protecting the doc and swearing and abusing the victim and her sister. They are not even recognising this as a bad thing.
There is underlying hatred for Sharmeen in Pak - similar for Malala
Blinded by hatred i guess.
There is underlying hatred for Sharmeen in Pak - similar for Malala
There is underlying hatred for Sharmeen in Pak - similar for Malala
On her FB, she equated the request to rape.
Delusional and highly offensive to actual rape victims.
That is beyond me. Sharmeen Chinoy brought something which gets thrown under the carpet as 'guess it happens' to the national and international conscience. Why are we so insecure?
I hope someone provides livelihood to the doctor asap and alleviates his suffering and distress.
On a lighter note, a guy on fb posted a screenshot of his profile where he had 760 friend requests from girls/women from all over the world and he was like "Hey Sharmeen, should i file charges of harassment against all of them?".
I am very happy to see the vast majority of Pakistani people taking the position that the punishment was too excessive with respect to the offence.
Other celebrities jumping in...
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">How about girls sending friend requests to guys?This is a perfect example of misusing the woman card,there's a reason it's called 'request'!</p>— Farhan Saeed (@farhan_saeed) <a href="https://twitter.com/farhan_saeed/status/924188986486280192?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 28, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Other celebrities jumping in...
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">How about girls sending friend requests to guys?This is a perfect example of misusing the woman card,there's a reason it's called 'request'!</p>— Farhan Saeed (@farhan_saeed) <a href="https://twitter.com/farhan_saeed/status/924188986486280192?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 28, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Are people deliberately ignoring the fact that main issue is that the guy was a doctor and send a request to his patient?
The main issue is collectively blaming the whole country.
Issue with doctor could have been handled privately, and if no actions were taken against the individual then she could have used social media to voice her concern toward that institution instead of trying to come off as better than over 200 million Pakistanis.
Her supporters need to understand, there are people who are and have criticized her for the sake of criticism. I was delighted that she won an Oscar and highlighted the issues that needed to be highlighted to make Pakistan a better country but when you collectively blame a country for an individual ethical mistake then you are asking for it and she has received the due criticism for that.
I am not her supporter, I agree that she shouldn't have blamed the whole country. I just disagree with people like Farhan Saeed who are trying to misguide people with their tweets.
Are people deliberately ignoring the fact that main issue is that the guy was a doctor and send a request to his patient?
Are people deliberately ignoring the fact that main issue is that the guy was a doctor and send a request to his patient?
On another not the doctor’s career has been completely destroyed.Getting hired at AKU is a dream job.Now he probably won’t get hired anywhere else because of this issue.
On another not the doctor’s career has been completely destroyed.Getting hired at AKU is a dream job.Now he probably won’t get hired anywhere else because of this issue.
He knew what he doing was wrong still thought he will remain unnoticed considering it's "just a FB friend request" to a patient. Good that she brought it up and showed the world that is wrong.
On another not the doctor’s career has been completely destroyed.Getting hired at AKU is a dream job.Now he probably won’t get hired anywhere else because of this issue.
She could've reported to his managers at the hospital first or the police after that.
I also felt like that initially but seeing some people don't even considering the FB request from a male doctor to a female patient within a day of treatment as "an unethical practice" made me to change my mind. The way she said this as a harassment is all wrong but she has a point while blaming him for doing this. Instead of criticising him everyone is hell bend on how dare she speak like that and she don't deserve to talk about ethics because of her past history etc. That's completely wrong.
So you changed your mind out of an immature emotional reaction? Lol. That isn't sound judgement.