Shamima Begum loses citizenship removal appeal bid [Post Updated #689]

[Zaz]

Sir Mo Farah is an immigrant, but he got knighted. The message UK is sending to non natives that it wants them on the positive side, and if they take a wrong turn then all rights are null and void. This is their way of inspiring the ethnic minorities.

Shes a native a british citizen and should have the same rights as any other brit

In india they may judge your citizenship on race religion or caste but this shouldnt be the case in britain

 

[CricketCartoons]

Shes a native a british citizen and should have the same rights as any other brit

In india they may judge your citizenship on race religion or caste but this shouldnt be the case in britain

should be, could be is for ideal talks. Forget about india, uk also is doing that. extra punishment for being on the wrong side, depending on your identity.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

should be, could be is for ideal talks. Forget about india, uk also is doing that. extra punishment for being on the wrong side, depending on your identity.

Agreed, and that is why we need to speak up and point these things out, publicly to draw attention in Britain, and on forums like this for the benefit of members who live outside of the UK can understand that racism is not accepted by the born and bred British - which of course includes me and many other British Pakistanis.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Agreed, and that is why we need to speak up and point these things out, publicly to draw attention in Britain, and on forums like this for the benefit of members who live outside of the UK can understand that racism is not accepted by the born and bred British - which of course includes me and many other British Pakistanis.

Don't think it is racist, it is nativist. As a supporter of nativism, I think this is inspirational for the non natives. They can see the examples of Sir Mo or Shamima, and know which one the natives want them to be. If some of them don't become like shamima, they won't need to bother about asking for equal treatment as the worst of the natives. be the best, why worry about being worst.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Don't think it is racist, it is nativist. As a supporter of nativism, I think this is inspirational for the non natives. They can see the examples of Sir Mo or Shamima, and know which one the natives want them to be. If some of them don't become like shamima, they won't need to bother about asking for equal treatment as the worst of the natives. be the best, why worry about being worst.

There is no such thing as nativist, how would you even define it? Britain was invaded by many marauding tribes from Vikings and Saxons - hence the term Anglo-Saxon - and in the twentieth century Ancient Pakistanis. I am using the term Ancient here to loosely cover pre-partition India.

Thus if you want to define natives at a certain point, it can only be through race, not nativity. Best not to go there in my view, could be opening up a real can of worms.

 

[CricketCartoons]

There is no such thing as nativist, how would you even define it? Britain was invaded by many marauding tribes from Vikings and Saxons - hence the term Anglo-Saxon - and in the twentieth century Ancient Pakistanis. I am using the term Ancient here to loosely cover pre-partition India.

Thus if you want to define natives at a certain point, it can only be through race, not nativity. Best not to go there in my view, could be opening up a real can of worms.

This is like saying no one is actually old, because everyone was young once. Nativism is a real concept. Like a moving arrow of time, those who settled early become the natives. After many generations, the newer communities will also become natives. If you are like Mo Farah, then you get to use a speedway and are as good as a native very soon, with average people it takes many generations, how many is arguable.

It is a social construct, which is why there can be disagreements with the definition, but not about whether it exists or not.

 

[ahmedzee]

Very hypocritical from the UK govt. Let me explain.
On one hand they have gathered and sheltered all the crooks of the world (Nawaz, Ishaq Dar, Mallya, Nirav modi etc.) who are criminals in their respective native countries (they're all not UK citizens). On the other hand, they don't accept their own criminals, such as Shamima, who is British.

Anyone sees an issue with that.
I personally think, they should let Shamima back, and try her in Uk courts. Period!
Maybe if shamima was a criminal in a 3rd world country and rich, they wouldn't have done this.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Very hypocritical from the UK govt. Let me explain.
On one hand they have gathered and sheltered all the crooks of the world (Nawaz, Ishaq Dar, Mallya, Nirav modi etc.) who are criminals in their respective native countries (they're all not UK citizens). On the other hand, they don't accept their own criminals, such as Shamima, who is British.

Anyone sees an issue with that.
I personally think, they should let Shamima back, and try her in Uk courts. Period!
Maybe if shamima was a criminal in a 3rd world country and rich, they wouldn't have done this.

 

[Rana]

They reintegrated the killers of James Bulger back into society. One of the two is still mentally deranged and a threat to society. But they can’t do the same for Shamima Begum? Although I despise what this girl has done, I don’t agree with the double standards.

 

[CricketCartoons]

They reintegrated the killers of James Bulger back into society. One of the two is still mentally deranged and a threat to society. But they can’t do the same for Shamima Begum? Although I despise what this girl has done, I don’t agree with the double standards.

Would you rather have two wrongs done and no double standards? Both would be threat to the society, at least there is one threat less now.

 

[Robert]

They reintegrated the killers of James Bulger back into society. One of the two is still mentally deranged and a threat to society. But they can’t do the same for Shamima Begum? Although I despise what this girl has done, I don’t agree with the double standards.

“They”? Different government, different era, different crime. Not that Begum has been accused of a crime. There is no “double standard”, there was one Home Secretary playing to the crowd, perhaps in the belief that Tory supporters would turn on him if he showed mercy to another British Muslim.

 

[Robert]

This is like saying no one is actually old, because everyone was young once. Nativism is a real concept. Like a moving arrow of time, those who settled early become the natives. After many generations, the newer communities will also become natives. If you are like Mo Farah, then you get to use a speedway and are as good as a native very soon, with average people it takes many generations, how many is arguable.

It is a social construct, which is why there can be disagreements with the definition, but not about whether it exists or not.

According to your definition, neither my wife nor I are native British.

 

[CricketCartoons]

According to your definition, neither my wife nor I are native British.

If you both are only a few generations old, then yes. you are british, but not native.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is like saying no one is actually old, because everyone was young once. Nativism is a real concept. Like a moving arrow of time, those who settled early become the natives. After many generations, the newer communities will also become natives. If you are like Mo Farah, then you get to use a speedway and are as good as a native very soon, with average people it takes many generations, how many is arguable.

It is a social construct, which is why there can be disagreements with the definition, but not about whether it exists or not.

I quite like this thinking, it almost reflects the nature of hindu philosophy where the soul can go through several cycles before it attains nirvana. You are subtly suggesting that the UK is not that different to India underneath all the fine principles.

You might even be right on an unofficial level, but in this country, the concept of nativism has no legal status. It is perhaps still a vibrant ideal which wants to be voiced by a significant chunk of society, but that voice is drowned out by the majority.


Om short, yes there might be this concept of 'nativism' but like other undesirable 'isms' it can be challenged and sent packing.

 

[Rana]

Would you rather have two wrongs done and no double standards? Both would be threat to the society, at least there is one threat less now.

Shamima Begum is not a threat like Jon Venables. Nobody knows who JV actually is, he could well have been hour neighbor or lives across the street to you. You would know know that the sick freak is 5 meters within your surrounding.

Shamima Begum’s threat cannot be compared to Jon Venables. Party Jihad is a phase that these so called Roadman Muslims grow out of just like Emos and Heavy Metal fans grow out of it by the age of 30.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Shamima Begum is not a threat like Jon Venables. Nobody knows who JV actually is, he could well have been hour neighbor or lives across the street to you. You would know know that the sick freak is 5 meters within your surrounding.

Shamima Begum’s threat cannot be compared to Jon Venables. Party Jihad is a phase that these so called Roadman Muslims grow out of just like Emos and Heavy Metal fans grow out of it by the age of 30.

This is wonderful then. UK should just wait till Shamima crosses 30 to induct her in society.

 

[Robert]

If you both are only a few generations old, then yes. you are british, but not native.

This is just another way of Othering. I reject it. If you're born in Britain you are British. If you are born elsewhere and become a British national legally, you are British.

 

[Robert]

Shamima Begum is not a threat like Jon Venables. Nobody knows who JV actually is, he could well have been hour neighbor or lives across the street to you. You would know know that the sick freak is 5 meters within your surrounding.

Shamima Begum’s threat cannot be compared to Jon Venables. Party Jihad is a phase that these so called Roadman Muslims grow out of just like Emos and Heavy Metal fans grow out of it by the age of 30.

Venables is is jail. He has received three custodial sentences so far. He is on a whole-life tariff like eery other British murderer. That means that on release, if he commits any further crime at all, he is returned to jail.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This is just another way of Othering. I reject it. If you're born in Britain you are British. If you are born elsewhere and become a British national legally, you are British.

Diving humans as British and non British is also othering then.

 

[Robert]

Diving humans as British and non British is also othering then.

Ah, this is what fascists do, try to invert liberal arguments to make liberals sound like hypocrites. Pakistanis and Germans and Americans are not The Other to me, we are all the same.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Ah, this is what fascists do, try to invert liberal arguments to make liberals sound like hypocrites. Pakistanis and Germans and Americans are not The Other to me, we are all the same.

You have already Othered me by labelling me fascist and yourself as liberal.

 

[Tubs]

I do feel bad for Shamima to an extent. She was young and likely groomed/coerced. But at age 15, joining a foreign legion which is renowned for being barbaric shouldn't be seen as a good thing. I am torn, really.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I do feel bad for Shamima to an extent. She was young and likely groomed/coerced. But at age 15, joining a foreign legion which is renowned for being barbaric shouldn't be seen as a good thing. I am torn, really.

15 is a child in the UK.

Are you also torn when 15 year old non-muslim girls meet older men for drugs, booze and intimacy or are they being abused?

 

[Tubs]

15 is a child in the UK.

Are you also torn when 15 year old non-muslim girls meet older men for drugs, booze and intimacy or are they being abused?

There is a difference between that and leaving the country to join a terrorist organisation. If a 15 year old girl left the UK and be married to a Hinduvta/IDF/Myanmar militia thug you'd not be torn, you'd have no compassion at all. I, on the other hand, can see that it is a multi-faceted issue and find it difficult to make judgement.

It's also interesting that you said 'non-Muslim'...

 

[KingKhanWC]

There is a difference between that and leaving the country to join a terrorist organisation. If a 15 year old girl left the UK and be married to a Hinduvta/IDF/Myanmar militia thug you'd not be torn, you'd have no compassion at all. I, on the other hand, can see that it is a multi-faceted issue and find it difficult to make judgement.

It's also interesting that you said 'non-Muslim'...

A child is a child, this is how I see it for any child for any circumstance, Im nothing like you. I wrote Non-Muslim so you could relate as due your history of hatred of Muslims.

Being groomed to extremism is fine because you hate religion. lol

 

[Tubs]

A child is a child, this is how I see it for any child for any circumstance, Im nothing like you. I wrote Non-Muslim so you could relate as due your history of hatred of Muslims.

Being groomed to extremism is fine because you hate religion. lol

Never said I hate Muslims, I dislike religions in general which includes Islam. You hate atheists, ex Muslims, Jews, Israelis, Indians, Hindus, and that is verifiable from your posts. I have never once spoken bad about Muslims, just some religious doctrine, Islam included.

Did I say being groomed into extremism is fine? There is a difference between sitting at home and hating the West, or even spreading those views to your peers, and leaving the country to join a foreign terrorist legion.

I am far more sympathetic to Shamima than most of the UK are. But yes, I just hate her because she's Muslim. Fantastic analysis as always, but I suppose I shouldn't expect much from you.

 

[Zaz]

There is a difference between that and leaving the country to join a terrorist organisation. If a 15 year old girl left the UK and be married to a Hinduvta/IDF/Myanmar militia thug you'd not be torn, you'd have no compassion at all. I, on the other hand, can see that it is a multi-faceted issue and find it difficult to make judgement.

It's also interesting that you said 'non-Muslim'...

A 15yr old is a 15yr old A child whos has diminished responsibility In any other case shed be the victim whos been coerced and taken advantage of

You cant have one rule for some and another rule for others

 

[KingKhanWC]

A 15yr old is a 15yr old A child whos has diminished responsibility In any other case shed be the victim whos been coerced and taken advantage of

You cant have one rule for some and another rule others

HE is an Ex-Muslim so his hatred of a faith means different rules for Muslim children, they are at fault.

 

[Tubs]

A 15yr old is a 15yr old A child whos has diminished responsibility In any other case shed be the victim whos been coerced and taken advantage of

You cant have one rule for some and another rule for others

Diminished responsibility? Sure. Hence why I'm torn. Diminished responsibility of joining a foreign terrorist organisation is still rather dire. If it wasn't publicised as much, she likely could have came back, which is why I'm leaning towards her being able to come back. But it isn't quite so easy. Child murderers can't just say 'I made a mistake' and be absolved of all crime. Let's not forget that she never even said that she didn't regret joining ISIS, and that someone deserved to get beheaded because he was an 'enemy of Islam', and that was at age 19/20.

HE is an Ex-Muslim so his hatred of a faith means different rules for Muslim children, they are at fault.

Yawn yawn, good one. You spew hatred about Hindus, Indians, Jews, Israelis, Ex-Muslims, etc and no one else complains. Stop being a victim all the time, just because I criticise religions including Islam, it doesn't mean I hate people, I am not a hateful person like you.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

Murderer? Joined Terrorist organization?

Do you have any proofs to back up your claims? All she did was to go to Syria and started a family there. Who did she murder?

If sympathising with some evil force like ISIS is a crime, then Nazi germany and British empire were even bigger evils of their day. British empire introduced world wide opium trade, enslaved many and killed them. So all those who are proud of these “British achievements” are as criminal as Shamima begum.

 

[Zaz]

Diminished responsibility? Sure. Hence why I'm torn. Diminished responsibility of joining a foreign terrorist organisation is still rather dire. If it wasn't publicised as much, she likely could have came back, which is why I'm leaning towards her being able to come back. But it isn't quite so easy. Child murderers can't just say 'I made a mistake' and be absolved of all crime. Let's not forget that she never even said that she didn't regret joining ISIS, and that someone deserved to get beheaded because he was an 'enemy of Islam', and that was at age 19/20

If shes committed a crime she should be tried in court like every other criminal murderer or terrorist If proven guilty lock her up

This ruling tho sets a discriminatory precedent against people from coloured backgrounds

You cant just make someone stateless

 

[Tubs]

If shes committed a crime she should be tried in court like every other criminal murderer or terrorist If proven guilty lock her up

This ruling tho sets a discriminatory precedent against people from coloured backgrounds

You cant just make someone stateless

I think the 'coloured background' point is ridiculous, Jihadi Jack (I think it was) had his citizenship revoked, and he was a white convert. I suppose it may happen more to 'coloured' individuals as they are more likely to be Muslim (Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Somali, Nigerian, Arab, etc).

Though, the stateless point is the strongest one in favour of Shamima, I agree. It is against UN policy, if I recall correctly. Though I was talking about morality initially, from a legal standpoint, it is unlawful to leave her as stateless.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think the 'coloured background' point is ridiculous, Jihadi Jack (I think it was) had his citizenship revoked, and he was a white convert. I suppose it may happen more to 'coloured' individuals as they are more likely to be Muslim (Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Somali, Nigerian, Arab, etc).

Though, the stateless point is the strongest one in favour of Shamima, I agree. It is against UN policy, if I recall correctly. Though I was talking about morality initially, from a legal standpoint, it is unlawful to leave her as stateless.

Stripping Jihadi Jack was actually a great move from a racist POV. You remove citizenship from one white "traitor" and it legitimises removal of potentially thousands from non-whites down the line. Then you get brown sahibs like Patel and Javid to be the frontline.

Both Canada and the US have been highly critical of the UK move to strip citizenship, describing it as shirking responsibility.

 

[Tubs]

Stripping Jihadi Jack was actually a great move from a racist POV. You remove citizenship from one white "traitor" and it legitimises removal of potentially thousands from non-whites down the line. Then you get brown sahibs like Patel and Javid to be the frontline.

Both Canada and the US have been highly critical of the UK move to strip citizenship, describing it as shirking responsibility.

Yep, everything is a plot to oppress the poor black and brown people.

 

[Robert]

You have already Othered me by labelling me fascist and yourself as liberal.

Creeping fascism is taking hold in my country. Perhaps nativist is more accurate in your case.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yep, everything is a plot to oppress the poor black and brown people.

No it isn't that is a fallacious statement. There are in fact many mechanisms in place in England to prevent racism against black and brown people.

 

[Tubs]

No it isn't that is a fallacious statement. There are in fact many mechanisms in place in England to prevent racism against black and brown people.

Agreed, my fallacious statement was in ridicule of your statement, not a reflection of what I believe.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Agreed, my fallacious statement was in ridicule of your statement, not a reflection of what I believe.

Good for you that your ridicule is tolerated, but as a response in like fashion seems to get removed, I would prefer to stick to the actual words you type and take them at face value.

 

[Saj]

2 schools of thought really:

She has 'betrayed' the UK
or
She was just a child and deserves another chance

 

[SensiblePakFan]

2 schools of thought really:

She has 'betrayed' the UK
or
She was just a child and deserves another chance

No one human being has the right to strip another of their rights to a homeland. No 2 ways about it.

 

[CricketCartoons]

No one human being has the right to strip another of their rights to a homeland. No 2 ways about it.

All rights are man made, and like other man made things, can be modified. There are 2 ways about it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

All rights are man made, and like other man made things, can be modified. There are 2 ways about it.

For that matter, could send in an SAS unit to take her out under covert ops and that would be the end of the matter. There are at least 3 ways about it.

 

[Zaz]

All rights are man made, and like other man made things, can be modified. There are 2 ways about it.

As long as they are modified for all and not applied arbitrarily then most dont have a problem

Selective punishment is what people have an issue with

 

[CricketCartoons]

As long as they are modified for all and not applied arbitrarily then most dont have a problem

Selective punishment is what people have an issue with

Is there another case exactly like this, where a girl of different race went to join the isis, and UK didn't let her come back?

 

[MenInG]

Britain's treatment of Shamima Begum is a "disgraceful indictment of our national conscience", Olympic sculptor Sir Anish Kapoor has said.

Ms Begum was 15 years old when she and two other east London schoolgirls travelled to Syria to join Islamic State in 2015.

Last month, the UK's Supreme Court ruled that she cannot return to the UK to pursue an appeal against the removal of her British citizenship.

Sir Anish Kapoor says Shamima Begum would be treated as a victim if she was white

In a statement co-authored by Ms Begum's family's lawyer, Sir Anish said: "Let us for one moment imagine that four young white school girls from Wiltshire were enticed to go to Syria and join IS.

"Would they be seen as terrorists or victims of terrorists?

"We have no doubt that we would be demanding that no expense be spared and not a moment wasted in having them returned to the safety of their homes in England."

Her British citizenship was revoked shortly after she was found in a Syrian refugee camp in February 2019, and she was nine months' pregnant at the time.

In 2019, she told The Times that her children, a one-year-old girl and a three-month-old boy, has both since died. Her third child died in the al Roj camp shortly after he was born.

Sir Anish said "the fact that Shamima wants to come back to the UK shows that she is willing to face the law here for her past mistakes".

He added: "Shamima is a British citizen, and it is her right to be tried in the British courts by a jury of her peers for any offence she may have committed."

The British artist's remarks came as The Daily Telegraph published exclusive pictures of Ms Begum, now 21, inside the al Roj camp.

Whereas she had previously been pictured in a niqab, the images showed Ms Begum with straightened hair - wearing sunglasses, a T-shirt and a hoodie.

According to the newspaper, she agreed to be photographed but declined to be interviewed owing to legal advice.

Speaking to Sky News on the Press Preview, Gal-Dem politics editor Moya Lothian-McLean said stripping Ms Begum of her British citizenship set "a dangerous precedent" - and said the newly emerged pictures "show her desperation".

The journalist added: "We cannot let the sentiment of a heinous crime get in the way of a legal right to citizenship."

SKYNEWS

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I was reading yesterday that Asma al Assad the wife of the Syrian leader faces having her citizenship revoked on terror charges.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tish-citizenship-loss-possible-terror-charges

Not that it would make much difference, I doubt she is spending much time in the UK anyway, but I still think there is some hypocrisy here, there were many terrorists who went to Iraq to fight illegally against ISIS and they came back to Britain without even getting their wrists slapped. No Brits who aren't with authorised army personnel should be fighting illegal wars abroad.

 

[rhony]

As long as they are modified for all and not applied arbitrarily then most dont have a problem

Selective punishment is what people have an issue with

Sorry to say but this is why there's islamaphobia. You don't condemn your rotten enough. There is a time to support and there is a time to disown and let people pay for their actions. Yes act of one or a few doesn't define a religion but let's get real.quick. Perception is reality. To save the hundreds of millions of innocent muslims from facing constant doubt and abuse, you need to alienate the ones that drag the religion down.

 

[James]

I don’t have an unlimited amount of time for her, I must admit, but she was born here and so she should have both a right to British citizenship and also a right to a fair trial on UK soil. She is, for want of a much better term, “our problem”, and so we should deal with her ourselves instead of palming her off somewhere else.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Sorry to say but this is why there's islamaphobia. You don't condemn your rotten enough. There is a time to support and there is a time to disown and let people pay for their actions. Yes act of one or a few doesn't define a religion but let's get real.quick. Perception is reality. To save the hundreds of millions of innocent muslims from facing constant doubt and abuse, you need to alienate the ones that drag the religion down.

Hundreds of millions innocent Muslims shouldn't have to face constant doubt and abuse, that you think it's necessary to throw someone to the dogs just to do so, shows that your mentality is already one of guilt by association.

Shamima is as British as many mercenaries and chancers who go abroad to take part in illegal wars, and from what it looks like she didn't really do any actual acts of terror, unlike some of those who went to fight on the other side. She should have been recognised as British same as all the other wannabe adventurers who weren't of Bangladeshi heritage.

 

[Varun]

Sorry to say but this is why there's islamaphobia. You don't condemn your rotten enough. There is a time to support and there is a time to disown and let people pay for their actions. Yes act of one or a few doesn't define a religion but let's get real.quick. Perception is reality. To save the hundreds of millions of innocent muslims from facing constant doubt and abuse, you need to alienate the ones that drag the religion down.

I've said this many times. Pakistanis abroad, including in Europe, are unfairly made to pay for the actions of random Chechens and Algerians. They should disown everybody bar themselves - the Pakistani community. If one of them is in the wrong anywhere, sure, take the heat, but to side with people who can't even point out Pakistan on the map is amusing at best and dangerous at worst.

 

[Local.Dada]

There are plenty of young girls who make 1 or 2 dumb moves and regret that for their entire life without getting a 2nd chance. Here people are defending a girl who left her parents and country, not to achieve any greatness but to become a wife/concubine of a terrorist from the worlds most dreaded organization.

A brainwashed person like this is a threat to society and there is no need to over think this.

Amazed to see so many law and made up ethical dilemmas here. This girl messed up, let her figure it out. May be if she lives the next 20-30 years serving the people and making up for her mistakes, who knows.

Yes her parents should get permission to see her though whichever “war zone” she finally settles in.

Good she is made an example of. Perfect guide for other kids who will make dumb moves in the name of adventure (which makes them take up these causes anyways)

 

[shaykh]

I’ve found the reaction to Shamima Begum quite interesting...

I find the reduction of her quite sexist actually...generally when discussing females who joined ISIS they are simply reduced to victims or wives...they apparently have no agency of their own...nor can they be ideologues...and the same language is used for Begum...the same patronising language isn’t used for males...are women not capable of holding nasty beliefs or is that capability only for males?...

What the whole ISIS victim wife narrative evidently leads to is a complete denial of what her role was said to be in the state...she wasn’t some stay at home mum, or working on a fruit stall...she was an instrument of state security by virtue of being part of their morality police...the fact that testimony exists from Syrian women who say Begum and other European women would often mete out punishment to anyone seen to be flouting the rules is frankly negated cos it doesn’t suit the ‘Begum was a helpless woman’ narrative...nothing new there though...

The race angle is also quite poorly constructed too...I’ve seen lots of statuses which say ‘if she was white this wouldn’t happen’...well again let not facts get in the way of a good story ...Jack Letts AKA Jihadi Jack a white convert has had his citizenship revoked...

Some have returned...and that is people of all ethnicities...cases are dealt with on a case by case basis...so saying X was allowed back so Begum should too really is a baseless position...not every person who went to Daesh territory worked as an instrument of the state...

The other standard argument that’s brought forth is the ‘it’s the West’s fault’ they resort to terrorism...it’s as lazy an argument there is...the fact that a Caliphate ideology exists is thus negated...I’ve met plenty of well to do guys whose lives are objectively fine...good jobs, no mistreatment from the state on a personal level yet their base ideology is one of hatred for ‘The West and it’s bankrupt secular values’...the fact that groups have events which encourage Muslims to not integrate etc...it’s always the states fault when someone doesn’t integrate...which again reduces people and limits their agency...they can hate us and attack us without having been victims...it’s a veiled apologetic for whenever an attack happens...and I’ve seen statuses which say ‘if the UK didn’t do this then X terrorist wouldn’t have done this.’..it’s just lazy...and also fails to acknowledge the vast number of Muslims who don’t take up such positions and do integrate...but non-Islamist Muslims don’t really suit the victim narrative that’s being pushed either...

One status I’ve seen this week says Muslims will never be accepted in Britain and judging by the rest of his posts the question that comes to mind for him is ‘do you even want to be accepted?’...if I live in a country and hate everything about, despise the culture etc then is it a surprise if I don’t fit in?’...

 

[IMMY69]

I’ve found the reaction to Shamima Begum quite interesting...

I find the reduction of her quite sexist actually...generally when discussing females who joined ISIS they are simply reduced to victims or wives...they apparently have no agency of their own...nor can they be ideologues...and the same language is used for Begum...the same patronising language isn’t used for males...are women not capable of holding nasty beliefs or is that capability only for males?...

What the whole ISIS victim wife narrative evidently leads to is a complete denial of what her role was said to be in the state...she wasn’t some stay at home mum, or working on a fruit stall...she was an instrument of state security by virtue of being part of their morality police...the fact that testimony exists from Syrian women who say Begum and other European women would often mete out punishment to anyone seen to be flouting the rules is frankly negated cos it doesn’t suit the ‘Begum was a helpless woman’ narrative...nothing new there though...

The race angle is also quite poorly constructed too...I’ve seen lots of statuses which say ‘if she was white this wouldn’t happen’...well again let not facts get in the way of a good story ...Jack Letts AKA Jihadi Jack a white convert has had his citizenship revoked...

Some have returned...and that is people of all ethnicities...cases are dealt with on a case by case basis...so saying X was allowed back so Begum should too really is a baseless position...not every person who went to Daesh territory worked as an instrument of the state...

The other standard argument that’s brought forth is the ‘it’s the West’s fault’ they resort to terrorism...it’s as lazy an argument there is...the fact that a Caliphate ideology exists is thus negated...I’ve met plenty of well to do guys whose lives are objectively fine...good jobs, no mistreatment from the state on a personal level yet their base ideology is one of hatred for ‘The West and it’s bankrupt secular values’...the fact that groups have events which encourage Muslims to not integrate etc...it’s always the states fault when someone doesn’t integrate...which again reduces people and limits their agency...they can hate us and attack us without having been victims...it’s a veiled apologetic for whenever an attack happens...and I’ve seen statuses which say ‘if the UK didn’t do this then X terrorist wouldn’t have done this.’..it’s just lazy...and also fails to acknowledge the vast number of Muslims who don’t take up such positions and do integrate...but non-Islamist Muslims don’t really suit the victim narrative that’s being pushed either...

One status I’ve seen this week says Muslims will never be accepted in Britain and judging by the rest of his posts the question that comes to mind for him is ‘do you even want to be accepted?’...if I live in a country and hate everything about, despise the culture etc then is it a surprise if I don’t fit in?’...

Your first paragraph is totally out of sink with reality.

If you know any thing about Muslims and men in particular and their treatment then you will know that women recruited into isis are not there to hold guns and go into battle.

sexism exists in the Asian and particularly in Muslims.
not saying this is a good thing but this is the harsh reality particularly when it comes to women joining ISIS.

A man or woman, born in England with British Nationality, should have a fight to return to the country and be tried here. This is what this thread is about not Feminism which I understand and appreciate is a hot topic ag the moment

 

[shaykh]

Your first paragraph is totally out of sink with reality.

If you know any thing about Muslims and men in particular and their treatment then you will know that women recruited into isis are not there to hold guns and go into battle.

sexism exists in the Asian and particularly in Muslims.
not saying this is a good thing but this is the harsh reality particularly when it comes to women joining ISIS.

A man or woman, born in England with British Nationality, should have a fight to return to the country and be tried here. This is what this thread is about not Feminism which I understand and appreciate is a hot topic ag the moment

No it’s not at all...stop with the infantilising of women...

You’re saying this isn’t about feminism yet you’re making a gender based defence for her...

Is it totally incapable in your eyes for women to be ideologues?...or is that capacity only available for men?..

Give women a bit more credit...and again in Begum’s case she was an instrument of the security of the state ...

Are you as infuriated that Jack Letts a white male has had his citizenship revoked?...

 

[IMMY69]

No it’s not at all...stop with the infantilising of women...

You’re saying this isn’t about feminism yet you’re making a gender based defence for her...

Is it totally incapable in your eyes for women to be ideologues?...or is that capacity only available for men?..

Give women a bit more credit...and again in Begum’s case she was an instrument of the security of the state ...

Are you as infuriated that Jack Letts a white male has had his citizenship revoked?...

I'm extremely concerned when anyone's citizenship is revoked and that's why there are conventions that do not allow for this.

I'm also concerned about my mate who was raped when he was young and the lad who recently threw himself in front of a train because he was wrongly accused of rape.

But Inspitecof all this I get the movement and I support it wholeheartedly however I don't approve of every single thing being made out to be sexist when it is not.

 

[IMMY69]

^^^^
Deal with the sexism in Islam then perhaps these girls will be recruited to fight.

However even if they are fighting and killing they still need to be tried in a UK court

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No it’s not at all...stop with the infantilising of women...

You’re saying this isn’t about feminism yet you’re making a gender based defence for her...

Is it totally incapable in your eyes for women to be ideologues?...or is that capacity only available for men?..

Give women a bit more credit...and again in Begum’s case she was an instrument of the security of the state ...

Are you as infuriated that Jack Letts a white male has had his citizenship revoked?...

Jack Letts shouldn't have had his citizenship revoked either, and truth is, citizenship is the real issue here. If you are born British and raised British, you are British as long as you would be entitled same as any other. Of course if you have revoked your own citizenship and have been given full and unconditional citizenship in your current residence it isn't really an issue. Why should Syria or Iraq have to take on these uninvited citizens?

 

[shaykh]

Jack Letts shouldn't have had his citizenship revoked either, and truth is, citizenship is the real issue here. If you are born British and raised British, you are British as long as you would be entitled same as any other. Of course if you have revoked your own citizenship and have been given full and unconditional citizenship in your current residence it isn't really an issue. Why should Syria or Iraq have to take on these uninvited citizens?

That’s a worthwhile conversation ...I’m just wondering why so much fuss is being made over this 1 individual...

104 citizenships were revoked in 2017 alone...yet one would believe by all the coverage she has got and how the responses have been that she was the only person this happening to...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That’s a worthwhile conversation ...I’m just wondering why so much fuss is being made over this 1 individual...

104 citizenships were revoked in 2017 alone...yet one would believe by all the coverage she has got and how the responses have been that she was the only person this happening to...

Wonder how many of those 104 were actually born in Britain? Because I think some of them at least would have been immigrants like those in the Rochdale grooming scandal, and I don't think that equates as if they were born abroad, or more importantly raised abroad, then their Britishness can be questionable anyway.

 

[shaykh]

Wonder how many of those 104 were actually born in Britain? Because I think some of them at least would have been immigrants like those in the Rochdale grooming scandal, and I don't think that equates as if they were born abroad, or more importantly raised abroad, then their Britishness can be questionable anyway.

The Rochdale guys never ended up getting deported for some reason...but in their case they were dual nationals...

There have been a few examples of those born in the UK who have had their citizenship revoked...Mohamed Sakr had dual citizenship for example...he had his citizenship revoked cos he was fighting for El Shabab...

The situation with Tauqir Sharif is worth looking at...has a Pakistani father so because he is entitled to dual heritage he had his citizenship revoked even though he was born here...his wife who is a British convert didn’t have her citizenship revoked to my knowledge ...

It’s this whole loophole of not leaving someone stateless when in fact you do...Canada have no interest in Letts, Bangladesh have no interest in Begum and Pakistan have no interest in Sharif...

But the point is right or wrong this is something that has been done before...and to others...yet it seems only Begum’s situation is covered...

 

[shaykh]

The bit I don’t get about this whole citizenship debate is on what basis should you return?...

If I commit a crime abroad why should I be sent home and face a British court and no be sentenced locally?...there’s a British woman for example on death row in Indonesia for drug trafficking...why should she be sent home...she made her bed...

There’s a bit of a debate in France for example on whether local authorities should deal with the legal side of things...French ISIS fighters caught in Iraq for example have been subjected to local law...

Now obviously local law probably means the death penalty for those captured and the unlikelihood of a fair trial most likely but in what sense is this different to the British drug traffickers who are in jail around the world...China executed a British drug trafficker who was caught with 4kg of heroin...

I’m trying to work out why there is so much fervour to bring ‘criminals’ back...or why this even needs to be a citizenship discussion...

 

[KingKhanWC]

That’s a worthwhile conversation ...I’m just wondering why so much fuss is being made over this 1 individual...

104 citizenships were revoked in 2017 alone...yet one would believe by all the coverage she has got and how the responses have been that she was the only person this happening to...

Perhaps because she isnt a Jew who goes and fights for Israel indulging in war crimes?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The bit I don’t get about this whole citizenship debate is on what basis should you return?...

If I commit a crime abroad why should I be sent home and face a British court and no be sentenced locally?...there’s a British woman for example on death row in Indonesia for drug trafficking...why should she be sent home...she made her bed...

There’s a bit of a debate in France for example on whether local authorities should deal with the legal side of things...French ISIS fighters caught in Iraq for example have been subjected to local law...

Now obviously local law probably means the death penalty for those captured and the unlikelihood of a fair trial most likely but in what sense is this different to the British drug traffickers who are in jail around the world...China executed a British drug trafficker who was caught with 4kg of heroin...

I’m trying to work out why there is so much fervour to bring ‘criminals’ back...or why this even needs to be a citizenship discussion...

If Shamima has committed a crime in Iraq and is serving a sentence, then there isn't any reason for Britain to strip her of her citizenship anyway, why even bother? I'm assuming that as she's arguing to come home, that she hasn't been found guilty of anything serious enough and that's why the Iraqis presumably are trying to wash their hands of her and want Britain to take them back. Otherwise they could just line them up and shoot them and bury them in a ditch. Job done and argument over.

 

[shaykh]

If Shamima has committed a crime in Iraq and is serving a sentence, then there isn't any reason for Britain to strip her of her citizenship anyway, why even bother? I'm assuming that as she's arguing to come home, that she hasn't been found guilty of anything serious enough and that's why the Iraqis presumably are trying to wash their hands of her and want Britain to take them back. Otherwise they could just line them up and shoot them and bury them in a ditch. Job done and argument over.

The issue i guess is she’s not in Iraq...she was captured by the Kurds who I guess aren’t officially in control of the area they captured from Daesh...nor have they passed judgement...she’s not on trial for anything at present...the Kurds want Britain to take responsibility ...

I’m just wondering whether the British position would mirror the French one if she was captured in Mosul...

 

[rhony]

Hundreds of millions innocent Muslims shouldn't have to face constant doubt and abuse, that you think it's necessary to throw someone to the dogs just to do so, shows that your mentality is already one of guilt by association.

Shamima is as British as many mercenaries and chancers who go abroad to take part in illegal wars, and from what it looks like she didn't really do any actual acts of terror, unlike some of those who went to fight on the other side. She should have been recognised as British same as all the other wannabe adventurers who weren't of Bangladeshi heritage.

I guess you don't read the news much where muslims always have to defend their religion everytime a lunatic blows himself up. Time to alienate the rotten and move in unison. In this fight against terrorism, you a Muslim and me a non Muslim have more in common than you a Muslim or her a Muslim. You a British national and me a US national have more in common than you and her. Get your priorities right. And it's not just her. Any rotten idiot that left their country tonwsge a war against their own country by joining the ISIS trash should be treated with no regard. And that's especially the case when they do not show any remorse. Anyway, not that it counts after the fact. She deserves the situation she is in.

 

[Tubs]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-win-appeal-against-removal-of-uk-citizenship

Okay, after seeing this, I am no longer on the fence. Shamima should have her citizenship back to be consistent. These guys wouldn't even have been stateless, but they still had their citizenship reinstated. But due to the huge media attention Shamima has gotten, I doubt she will get hers reinstated- the optics would just be too bad.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I guess you don't read the news much where muslims always have to defend their religion everytime a lunatic blows himself up. Time to alienate the rotten and move in unison. In this fight against terrorism, you a Muslim and me a non Muslim have more in common than you a Muslim or her a Muslim. You a British national and me a US national have more in common than you and her. Get your priorities right. And it's not just her. Any rotten idiot that left their country tonwsge a war against their own country by joining the ISIS trash should be treated with no regard. And that's especially the case when they do not show any remorse. Anyway, not that it counts after the fact. She deserves the situation she is in.

Ironic that you cite yourself as being American, your President has criticised Britain for not accepting back their citizens and taking ownership. You should at least know the position of your own country before telling others what to think.

This is about a person's nationality and not religion. British people who are born British are British. It's as simple as that.

 

[rhony]

Ironic that you cite yourself as being American, your President has criticised Britain for not accepting back their citizens and taking ownership. You should at least know the position of your own country before telling others what to think.

This is about a person's nationality and not religion. British people who are born British are British. It's as simple as that.

Luckily us Americans aren't Chinese to be forced to align our views with our government. I couldn't care less what the position of US govt is. Infact if she was an American citizen, she probably would have been rotting in Guantanamo bay by now.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Luckily us Americans aren't Chinese to be forced to align our views with our government. I couldn't care less what the position of US govt is. Infact if she was an American citizen, she probably would have been rotting in Guantanamo bay by now.

That you are bringing in China and religion tells me you are an Indian. FYI, this is about being British, it is not a religious or India/Pak issue so perhaps you need to lay off telling me what my priorities should be since you don't seem to understand British nationality is not something that should be whipped away because your parents were born in another country.

 

[silentkiller187]

Fact is UK deports criminals that are citizens of other countries once they have done their time, sometimes they are sent to their own country to serve their jail term, shamima is a British citizen so its only right she is sent back to the UK who can then deal with her as they see fit, jail time, mental health support etc.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Fact is UK deports criminals that are citizens of other countries once they have done their time, sometimes they are sent to their own country to serve their jail term, shamima is a British citizen so its only right she is sent back to the UK who can then deal with her as they see fit, jail time, mental health support etc.

That is the point. By all means deport foreigners. How can you deport someone who has been brought up British from birth. Bring them home, try them, then give them the death penalty for all I care, but this stripping of citzenship smells of something else, not justice.

 

[silentkiller187]

That is the point. By all means deport foreigners. How can you deport someone who has been brought up British from birth. Bring them home, try them, then give them the death penalty for all I care, but this stripping of citzenship smells of something else, not justice.

Exactly, but can you be surprised with the hypocritical nature of the British government.

The problem is I think the government have sensed this as an opportunity, I don't want to be labelled as a conspiracy theorist and say it is a setup however she is being used as a pawn to rile up the good old british folk one minute shes in full burqa next minute shes dressed in HnM latest collection.

Before you now it they will be passing bills giving the government the rights to strip anyone of their nationality whenever they feel like it, dangerous precedent being set.

 

[Zaz]

Exactly, but can you be surprised with the hypocritical nature of the British government.

The problem is I think the government have sensed this as an opportunity, I don't want to be labelled as a conspiracy theorist and say it is a setup however she is being used as a pawn to rile up the good old british folk one minute shes in full burqa next minute shes dressed in HnM latest collection.

Before you now it they will be passing bills giving the government the rights to strip anyone of their nationality whenever they feel like it, dangerous precedent being set.

Exactly and because you cant leave a person stateless its going to be people of colour whos parents or grandparents have come from a different country

Shamima is being palmed off to bangladesh when shes got nothing to do with them Shes britains problem and this is a dangerous precedent for the minorities of britain not their white counterparts

 

[rhony]

That you are bringing in China and religion tells me you are an Indian. FYI, this is about being British, it is not a religious or India/Pak issue so perhaps you need to lay off telling me what my priorities should be since you don't seem to understand British nationality is not something that should be whipped away because your parents were born in another country.

I guess you really haven't been reading news. In the last few years, China has been the biggest threat to US and we've been showing that too. Trade wars, tariffs, human rights etc. All I need to know is this person left voluntarily to join ISIS. She married a terrorist and even now has no remorse. British gov has taken the right decision to disown her. She is not stateless now and they took advantage of her. She will be a lesson for every person that dreams of being a terrorist.

 

[silentkiller187]

I guess you really haven't been reading news. In the last few years, China has been the biggest threat to US and we've been showing that too. Trade wars, tariffs, human rights etc. All I need to know is this person left voluntarily to join ISIS. She married a terrorist and even now has no remorse. British gov has taken the right decision to disown her. She is not stateless now and they took advantage of her. She will be a lesson for every person that dreams of being a terrorist.

How about all the mercenaries that left the USA/ UK /Russia to go and fight with the Kurdish rebels, who are also recognized as terrorists by many governments, yet they were let back into their countries via the back door, no hoo ha made. Someone already posted an article of 3 other bangladeshis let back in the UK, no media attention, they were in similar situations to Shamima, one was even a male so was probably fighting as well how come no media attention around them, no calls to revoke their citizenship. Yet they want to plaster Shamima all over the front pages of the news, wearing skinny jeans and tight tops now, where do you even get those is ISIS controlled Syria? blatantly obvious Shamima is being used as a political pawn and its dangerous what precedent this could lead too in the UK. The option to revoke someone's citizenship opens up a whole new can of worms, like the death penalty i do not agree as the justice system does not have a 100% success rate.

Its funny how ISIS has almost fallen of a cliff since covid started, suppose their all self isolating, just like Al Qaeda disappeared before it. Don't fall for these traps and government created scenarios to push their own agendas.

 

[shaykh]

How about all the mercenaries that left the USA/ UK /Russia to go and fight with the Kurdish rebels, who are also recognized as terrorists by many governments, yet they were let back into their countries via the back door, no hoo ha made. Someone already posted an article of 3 other bangladeshis let back in the UK, no media attention, they were in similar situations to Shamima, one was even a male so was probably fighting as well how come no media attention around them, no calls to revoke their citizenship. Yet they want to plaster Shamima all over the front pages of the news, wearing skinny jeans and tight tops now, where do you even get those is ISIS controlled Syria? blatantly obvious Shamima is being used as a political pawn and its dangerous what precedent this could lead too in the UK. The option to revoke someone's citizenship opens up a whole new can of worms, like the death penalty i do not agree as the justice system does not have a 100% success rate.

Its funny how ISIS has almost fallen of a cliff since covid started, suppose their all self isolating, just like Al Qaeda disappeared before it. Don't fall for these traps and government created scenarios to push their own agendas.

What precedent?...140 have had their citizenship revoked already ...

I’ve already mentioned a couple in this thread...one had a Pakistani dad...the ‘Beatles’ all had their citizenship revoked...and another was a white convert...the reason Shamima Begum is getting so much press is cos she’s female...

And supporting foreign fighters who attack your enemy is nothing new...it’s why a lot of conflicts have been full of foreign fighters...and it’s not a faith thing...plenty of Muslims from the UK went to fight the Serbs for instance ...and faced no action on their return ...Kurds haven’t declared war on the UK so why would Brits fighting for them be treated in the same way as those who fought for ISIS?...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What precedent?...140 have had their citizenship revoked already ...

I’ve already mentioned a couple in this thread...one had a Pakistani dad...the ‘Beatles’ all had their citizenship revoked...and another was a white convert...the reason Shamima Begum is getting so much press is cos she’s female...

And supporting foreign fighters who attack your enemy is nothing new...it’s why a lot of conflicts have been full of foreign fighters...and it’s not a faith thing...plenty of Muslims from the UK went to fight the Serbs for instance ...and faced no action on their return ...Kurds haven’t declared war on the UK so why would Brits fighting for them be treated in the same way as those who fought for ISIS?...

Out of those 140 who had their citizenship revoked, how many were white?

 

[shaykh]

Out of those 140 who had their citizenship revoked, how many were white?

Cant answer that one for the UK...it’s barely known who has actually had their citizenship revoked...Letts is one though...

In France’s case it’s been clearer...quite a lot of converts in ISIS...and they have had their citizenships revoked ...a few white French got executed in Iraq not that long ago...the French refused to extradite irregardless of race...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cant answer that one for the UK...it’s barely known who has actually had their citizenship revoked...Letts is one though...

In France’s case it’s been clearer...quite a lot of converts in ISIS...and they have had their citizenships revoked ...a few white French got executed in Iraq not that long ago...the French refused to extradite irregardless of race...

My concern is that it would be driven by race and would never be considered as an option otherwise. If you were born in a foreign country fair enough, but when you are born and bred in Britain, then you are British. I know about Letts, but stripping his citizenship is actually a smart move because it would justify stripping hundreds more in the future who, to put it bluntly, don't look like Letts. These type of moves are racially loaded, and if you think they aren't, then you might ask yourself why brown faces like Javid or Patel are always put as the public face to push them through.

 

[silentkiller187]

What precedent?...140 have had their citizenship revoked already ...

I’ve already mentioned a couple in this thread...one had a Pakistani dad...the ‘Beatles’ all had their citizenship revoked...and another was a white convert...the reason Shamima Begum is getting so much press is cos she’s female...

And supporting foreign fighters who attack your enemy is nothing new...it’s why a lot of conflicts have been full of foreign fighters...and it’s not a faith thing...plenty of Muslims from the UK went to fight the Serbs for instance ...and faced no action on their return ...Kurds haven’t declared war on the UK so why would Brits fighting for them be treated in the same way as those who fought for ISIS?...

Its about consistency, you leave your country to go and fight and kill people, in the name of war? unless your fighting for the british army who has strict rules in regards to warfare, you deserve to be treated the same way as a "terrorist".

how many of the 140 were white or born in Britain with sole British nationality, I'm not talking about people who came here in their teens and then were sent back to their country of birth after their sentence? This lady was born in UK so why the talk of being sent to Bangladesh, she is UK's problem, she was groomed in the UK , therefore UK needs to deal with her now. Throw her in prison, throw away the key, im not saying let her come back and roam freely, but she is british, if you can wipe someone's nationality without eve trying them in a UK court, it is a very bad precedent.