Should a doctor in UK be sacked for asking Muslim patient to remove veil?

[Abdullah719]

More than 60,000 people have signed a petition backing a doctor who is under investigation for asking a Muslim patient to remove her veil.

Dr Keith Wolverson says he told the woman to take off her niqab so he could hear her describe what was wrong with her child.

He was reported to his bosses at Royal Stoke University Hospital after the patient’s husband complained she was upset by his “rude” request.

The freelance GP, who has been practising for 23 years, admits he is now ”rather fearful of the consequences” after finding out he has been reported to the General Medical Council (GMC) and will be the subject of a racial discrimination inquiry.

He said he would continue to “fight to the bitter end” in order to carry on working in the profession.

Speaking about the incident, the 52-year-old from Derby said: “I asked a lady to remove her face veil for adequate communication, in the same way I’d ask a motorcyclist to remove a crash helmet.

“When the letter came through, I was rather fearful of the consequences.

“I’m a little bit sad the country has been committed to depths such as this.

“But it takes more than this to knock me off my perch.”

Dr Wolverson said he was “absolutely bowled over” by the petition on change.org, which has now reached over 60,990 signatures.

The creator of the petition, titled “Stop Dr Wolverson getting fired”, wrote: “I would like to get as many people as possible to sign this petition and save this man’s reputation.

“I believe he acted in the best interest of the child involved and there was no racist or religious discrimination in his actions.

“We need to ensure the General Medical Council treat this man fairly and look at all the evidence.

“Our NHS is severely understaffed and we cannot afford to lose doctors due to fabricated accusations of discrimination.”

The Doctors Association called on the GMC to issue “clear guidelines to protect both doctors and our patients”.

“It is of utmost importance that the religious wishes of our patients are respected,” a spokesperson added.

“However, evidently there are some circumstances where removal of a niqab or burqa is necessary for medical assessment and treatment.”

Dr Wolverson, who has been suspended, said he expected to face a hearing before the GMC which would decide on his future.

He added: “The trouble is, I’m a freelance doctor and if you get reported to the GMC you don’t get any offers of work.

“Yes I want to carry on, yes I will carry on, but it is academic until the inquiry is over.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-niqab-petition-keith-wolverson-a8930176.html

 

[MenInG]

Tough call but surely the man is doing his job?

 

[ElRaja]

no place for full face veils in this day and age.

also why's the husband complaining?

doc deserves an apology.

 

[PakLFC]

No he should not be sacked. As I always say nothing is more important then the rule of law. If a security man can ask for the veil to be removed then so can a doctor if it makes him/her feel insecure. Move to Saudi if you can't live without the veil.

 

[Pakistanian]

Yes, he should.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Tough call but surely the man is doing his job?

The woman wasnt the patient. He wanted her to take off her veil so he could hear her properly. This is strange as a woman wearing a veil can be heard pretty easily, its a cloth over the mouth/face not a brick.

He may be genuine or may be racist but im sure he will get a fair tribunal and if round racist is career is over.

 

[KingKhanWC]

no place for full face veils in this day and age.

also why's the husband complaining?

doc deserves an apology.

Why not? One of the great things about the UK is people are free to dress as they wish as long they are not obsence or causing harm to others.

 

[ElRaja]

Why not? One of the great things about the UK is people are free to dress as they wish as long they are not obsence or causing harm to others.

ok, let me elaborate, two points, first is my opinion, i.e. i think there is no logical rationale for wearing full facial coverings indoors and i think any woman who chooses it is either coerced or brainwashed to think its normal to hide your face from other people in contemporary society.

from a legal pov, wear whatever you want, but if for a legitimate reason (i.e. conversing with someone where clarity of voice is important) if you are asked to remove it, either remove it or don't, that's your call, but don't chastise someone for making a logical request.

 

[gazza619]

ok, let me elaborate, two points, first is my opinion, i.e. i think there is no logical rationale for wearing full facial coverings indoors and i think any woman who chooses it is either coerced or brainwashed to think its normal to hide your face from other people in contemporary society.

from a legal pov, wear whatever you want, but if for a legitimate reason (i.e. conversing with someone where clarity of voice is important) if you are asked to remove it, either remove it or don't, that's your call, but don't chastise someone for making a logical request.

Agreed. Though I think there may be more to the story.

 

[CricketDon]

No place for a suppressive and medical veil that is designed to suppress women and is used by the Taliban and such terrorist groups.

Doctor deserves a apology. People are so entitled. Go get private health care or move to a Muslim country.

 

[KingKhanWC]

ok, let me elaborate, two points, first is my opinion, i.e. i think there is no logical rationale for wearing full facial coverings indoors and i think any woman who chooses it is either coerced or brainwashed to think its normal to hide your face from other people in contemporary society.

from a legal pov, wear whatever you want, but if for a legitimate reason (i.e. conversing with someone where clarity of voice is important) if you are asked to remove it, either remove it or don't, that's your call, but don't chastise someone for making a logical request.

Of course it's your opinion and it isn't any stronger than a womans opinion who wishes to cover her face. Their rational is they dont want a strange man to see their face. As for brainwashed this is a very poor argument. Please watch the below video in full, the lady with the veil smashes the other woman in this deate whose arguments are not too different than yours.

The doctor could simply be a racist or Islamaphobe who wanted to annoy the lady. If you visit a doctor and face such discrimination it;s your obligation to report it, wouldn't you?

 

[PakLFC]

Muslim's living in the west should also compromise and stop making a fuss about everything. Living in the west means acknowledging their laws. There is always the Middle East if they love oppression so much. Westerners in Pak are also made to accepts Pak norms of dressing modestly. No miniskirts and things like that.

 

[kingusama92]

To be fair, it is difficult to understand veiled women at times.

 

[Pakpak]

GMC is beyond a joke and disgrace anyway, who's purpose is to fleece doctors from rip off registration and membership fees. Every doctor is literally terrified of making any kind of minor mistake. The patients are so arrogant its beyond belief and take the free NHS treatment for granted.

 

[ElRaja]

Their rational is they dont want a strange man to see their face. As for brainwashed this is a very poor argument. Please watch the below video in full, the lady with the veil smashes the other woman in this deate whose arguments are not too different than yours.

having seen the first half of the video don't conflate my position to the other woman's, i don't hate the face veil, i simply think its stupid. i couldn't care less if someone chooses to wear it. and having listened to the rest there's no logical, logical being the operative word, rationale that veiled lady puts across.

she says she is fighting the oppression of women by the sexualisation of the female body, but since she knows that's a very silly argument to make to support hiding you're face given male faces have far greater prominence in the public sphere, as opposed to the prevalence of naked female bodies, she deflects to eating disorders, etc.

she only smashed the other women in the debate on the point that it is her right to wear it. which she is right, which was never my point. so no, i still don't see a logical rationale for wearing it.

The doctor could simply be a racist or Islamaphobe who wanted to annoy the lady. If you visit a doctor and face such discrimination it;s your obligation to report it, wouldn't you?

was i in the ladies position i would decline, explain myself if i wished, or not, and given the doctor the chance to continue the consultation as is.

from what i know the lady removed her veil, and only after the consultation did her husband complain. the truth will come out eventually, but for mine it could have been handled a lot better.

 

[Pakpak]

ok, let me elaborate, two points, first is my opinion, i.e. i think there is no logical rationale for wearing full facial coverings indoors and i think any woman who chooses it is either coerced or brainwashed to think its normal to hide your face from other people in contemporary society.

from a legal pov, wear whatever you want, but if for a legitimate reason (i.e. conversing with someone where clarity of voice is important) if you are asked to remove it, either remove it or don't, that's your call, but don't chastise someone for making a logical request.

Hijab in my view is fine, a lot of my family wear it but niqab I can never understand. Its purpose is to hide beauty and I am afraid no man is that thirsty enough that in the UK where most woman show skin that he will get that desperate after someone who's probably either in her 60s or normal looking. It makes it normal men to be animals.

 

[KingKhanWC]

having seen the first half of the video don't conflate my position to the other woman's, i don't hate the face veil, i simply think its stupid. i couldn't care less if someone chooses to wear it. and having listened to the rest there's no logical, logical being the operative word, rationale that veiled lady puts across.

she says she is fighting the oppression of women by the sexualisation of the female body, but since she knows that's a very silly argument to make to support hiding you're face given male faces have far greater prominence in the public sphere, as opposed to the prevalence of naked female bodies, she deflects to eating disorders, etc.

she only smashed the other women in the debate on the point that it is her right to wear it. which she is right, which was never my point. so no, i still don't see a logical rationale for wearing it.



was i in the ladies position i would decline, explain myself if i wished, or not, and given the doctor the chance to continue the consultation as is.

from what i know the lady removed her veil, and only after the consultation did her husband complain. the truth will come out eventually, but for mine it could have been handled a lot better.

I think she beat the femanist pretty easily who was stupid enough to suggest every woman is forced but clearly was debating with a woman who isnt. You also said they are all brainwashed into wearing the garment which was a poor generalistion and simply fasle. As the woman stated many who wear it are converts, nobody forces them to convert in the first place. The femanist then went on to claim God forces them . lol

The doctor has been suspended because his job is to deal with the patients not to force their parents or guardians to remove clothing before helping the patient. I believe the doctor could have handled it better.

 

[ElRaja]

I think she beat the femanist pretty easily who was stupid enough to suggest every woman is forced but clearly was debating with a woman who isnt. You also said they are all brainwashed into wearing the garment which was a poor generalistion and simply fasle. As the woman stated many who wear it are converts, nobody forces them to convert in the first place. The femanist then went on to claim God forces them . lol

i said coerced or brainwashed, not forced, and if you think you should hide your face from everyone because of a religion or belief, you are either coerced or brainwashed, as imo, and demonstrably from the clip you posted there is no logical train of thought that results in a woman deciding i'm gonna cover my face in front of everyone. if there was, men would do the same.

the feminists last point was stupid, because billions of Muslim women don't wear the niqab, but her stupidity doesn't validate the other women's lack of a rationale. she should just be honest and say i do it because i think it'll make it more likely for me to go to heaven. end of story, and everyone can go live there lives.

The doctor has been suspended because his job is to deal with the patients not to force their parents or guardians to remove clothing before helping the patient. I believe the doctor could have handled it better.

how do you know he forced her, he asked, she obliged, you would agree the lady in question has the capacity to make that choice, or walk out.

 

[KingKhanWC]

i said coerced or brainwashed, not forced, and if you think you should hide your face from everyone because of a religion or belief, you are either coerced or brainwashed, as imo, and demonstrably from the clip you posted there is no logical train of thought that results in a woman deciding i'm gonna cover my face in front of everyone. if there was, men would do the same.

the feminists last point was stupid, because billions of Muslim women don't wear the niqab, but her stupidity doesn't validate the other women's lack of a rationale. she should just be honest and say i do it because i think it'll make it more likely for me to go to heaven. end of story, and everyone can go live there lives.



how do you know he forced her, he asked, she obliged, you would agree the lady in question has the capacity to make that choice, or walk out.

You said brainwashed which I stated. It doesn't matter what I think, Im not a woman and I dont agree with covering the face as this is not part of Islam imo. But it's up to the individual what they believe and many women believe Islam says to cover you face, this is not brainwashing but a school of thought.

A mother would want her child to be treated. When she told her husband he must have told her this wasnt neccesary because we live in the UK and you are allowed to cover your face. Im just guessing here but one thing we dont need to guess is a fine cloth across the face doesn't stop another from hearing your voice.

 

[ElRaja]

You said brainwashed which I stated. It doesn't matter what I think, Im not a woman and I dont agree with covering the face as this is not part of Islam imo. But it's up to the individual what they believe and many women believe Islam says to cover you face, this is not brainwashing but a school of thought.

the two aren't mutually exclusive.

A mother would want her child to be treated. When she told her husband he must have told her this wasnt neccesary because we live in the UK and you are allowed to cover your face. Im just guessing here but one thing we dont need to guess is a fine cloth across the face doesn't stop another from hearing your voice.

and what if he really was having difficulty in understanding the lady, should he have not acted in what he perceived was the best interest of the child for the sake of not coming across as culturally insensitive, or racist?

 

[shaz619]

Where your health is a concern then no, I know some people who work in this field and they say sometimes certain people can make their lives very difficult when they are just trying to help

 

[KingKhanWC]

the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Mabye those who oppose it are brainwashed? Lets not get into thinking women who wear the veil are somehow less intelligent or easily brainwashed. The woman in the video seemed very smart, much smarter than most of the posters on this forum imo.

and what if he really was having difficulty in understanding the lady, should he have not acted in what he perceived was the best interest of the child for the sake of not coming across as culturally insensitive, or racist?

He could have asked her to write it down or speak louder. Asking her to remove it before exploring other options seems he has his hown prejudism inside. But we are both guessing, lets wait for the hearing and agree to disagree on this subject.

 

[saeedhk]

Feel sorry for the doctor. The U.K. and the west in general is very accommodating towards Muslims.

I wish,Muslims too,reciprocated the same feelings towards them.

 

[ElRaja]

Mabye those who oppose it are brainwashed? Lets not get into thinking women who wear the veil are somehow less intelligent or easily brainwashed.

no, even smart people can ostensibly justify illogical views to themselves

The woman in the video seemed very smart, much smarter than most of the posters on this forum imo.

lol, says more about this forum imo

He could have asked her to write it down or speak louder. Asking her to remove it before exploring other options seems he has his hown prejudism inside. But we are both guessing, lets wait for the hearing and agree to disagree on this subject.

fair enough

 

[ataullah]

Surah Ahzab verse 59:

يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ قُل لاًّزْوَجِكَ وَبَنَـتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.


Ibn `Abbas (imam ul mufassireen) said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing.

When the veil is proven by Qur'an one can't say in this day and age there's no space for the veil. Islam isn't like other religions which needs to be modernised but Islam is perfect and to be practiced as it was practiced over 1400 years ago.

If one can walk around naked without anyone having a problem with it then why can't anyone dress as he/her wishes???

When cricketers are cutting a during fasting hours it's their personal choice and we aren't allowed to say anything but when a woman through her own choice and to practice on the beautiful deen puts on a veil which is proven by Qur'an and hadith is backwards and silly???

 

[kabbirann]

No.
In the public hospital where I work, Muslim women patients will often ask for female doctors-the answer always is that they will be seen by the next available doctor regardless of gender.
We are not here to accommodate anyone's medieval ,misogynistic attitudes.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Surely the doctor has the right to know who is he talking to? The patient has the right to refuse being treated by the doctor.

 

[90MPH]

The face veil needs to be banned in the UK. If the idea is to get less attention then actually it’s having the totally opposite outcome. Also it’s just not compatible with UK or European society, not hard to figure out why. It’s fine in SaudiArabia where this practice is much more common.

No one wore this 20 years ago. After the turn of the millennium I don’t know where this idea came from but I suspect it was some brainwashing from some extreme mullahs who wanted to create a war of cultures and religion - thankfully around London this is very very rare.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Why go to the doctor to get treated? Just stay at home and pray to Allah who is the greatest doctor of them all. That way you can keep your veil on, or not, or just not be seen in public and not risk being looked at “that” way, which is of course what everyone out there is trying to do.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Not worth ending a job, although the doctor should be more careful to the religious sensitivities in future.

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

One thing was she the patient or was it her daughter?

Let's get full story

 

[Halaribo]

It's a tragedy that certain women choose to limit their potential and remain ignorant by not getting a higher education so they themselves can become the doctors for other women.

Free mixing at University is a bigger concern for some than the Muslim female who needs a female doctor to attend to her one day.

While condescendingly looking down on society in general and not seeing them than anything more than lustful, hedonistic animals, they are then happy to seek the aid of these very people when suits.

Depending on what actually happened, could the doctor possibly have handled it better? Possibly.

However, the double standards of the Muslim community do us no favours.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Two different issues here. Firstly the full veil, should it be banned or not banned? I don't like it, but at the same time I have never had a single problem from a woman wearing a veil, so never really been a concern for me, other than it looks weird.

Secondly, I think the doctor was being racist, can't prove it but that is my hunch. Should he be sacked? Probably a bit harsh, but he should be reprimanded and told to do his job. Britain still hasn't banned the veil, and if and when it does then doctors can demand the woman remove it.

 

[James]

I have no issue with the veil at all, I support people making their personal choice to wear it.

Having said that, I do think that the doctor has been treated harshly here. He made an error in judgment but a ticking off would have done the trick. If he gets struck off it would be utterly ridiculous.

 

[Robert]

I see no problem with a doctor asking a mother to remove her veil briefly for communication purposes as long as her husband is there and they are in a private place.

Some people speak quietly and others, particularly older people compensate by lip-reading them.

It's fine if the mother is prepared to endanger the health of her child by waiting for a female doctor to become available.

 

[Professor]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Last Friday the Mirror published an article about a doc facing losing his job for simply asking a lady to remove her face veil. I said at the time something is not right. I have now come across this: the Doc with guess what? <a href="https://twitter.com/aak1880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@aak1880</a> <a href="https://t.co/fCmghACSCv">pic.twitter.com/fCmghACSCv</a></p>— RepStar (@RepiakaMoni) <a href="https://twitter.com/RepiakaMoni/status/1130757909434912768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 21, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Doctor seems to have history with racist behaviour. The article in the op, only tells his side of the story.

 

[Swashbuckler]

I feel sorry for the doctor here. He must have requested her for better communication, had he used force to pull it off her face, different matter.

 

[Halaribo]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Last Friday the Mirror published an article about a doc facing losing his job for simply asking a lady to remove her face veil. I said at the time something is not right. I have now come across this: the Doc with guess what? <a href="https://twitter.com/aak1880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@aak1880</a> <a href="https://t.co/fCmghACSCv">pic.twitter.com/fCmghACSCv</a></p>— RepStar (@RepiakaMoni) <a href="https://twitter.com/RepiakaMoni/status/1130757909434912768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 21, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Doctor seems to have history with racist behaviour. The article in the op, only tells his side of the story.

That picture has no context whatsoever. It could be a childhood toy, a prank, an inside joke with someone.

However, it would need to be looked into to establish what happened, and action taken from there.

If that is all the evidence you need to label someone racist, then half of PP can be locked up for "hate speech".

 

[Halaribo]

On reflection, I'll tone down my objection a bit. He does come across as a bit of a **** to even have a golly.

I would have questions as to why he does have one.

However, I think disciplinary measures and performance management would be more appropriate than striking him off.

Again, it all depends on what actually happened.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I feel sorry for the doctor here. He must have requested her for better communication, had he used force to pull it off her face, different matter.

I don't think he requested her to remove her veil for better communication, I think he asked her to remove it because he found the veil offensive. The communication line was just an excuse to cover his back.

 

[Madplayer]

I believe everyone involved in this case is wrong but i also believe the doc should not be reprimanded unless he actually refused to treat the child unless his mother removed the veil. Also, i dont believing wearing a veil is necessary in Islam.

Now that i have got that out of the way, let us look at this particular case of over confidence.

ok, let me elaborate, two points, first is my opinion, i.e. i think there is no logical rationale for wearing full facial coverings indoors and i think any woman who chooses it is either coerced or brainwashed to think its normal to hide your face from other people in contemporary society.

Interesting way of looking at things.
Can i ask what rationale is there behind praying to God and asking him for good health for instance?
Secondly can we say that you too are brainwashed to act in the way that you do?

from a legal pov, wear whatever you want, but if for a legitimate reason (i.e. conversing with someone where clarity of voice is important) if you are asked to remove it, either remove it or don't, that's your call, but don't chastise someone for making a logical request.

I agree about the chastising part. But i am curious, have you ever talked to a veiled woman? If so, was there any difficulty that you faced in hearing her properly?

 

[Madplayer]

I don't think he requested her to remove her veil for better communication, I think he asked her to remove it because he found the veil offensive. The communication line was just an excuse to cover his back.

This is the most plausible explanation here. I have talked to veiled women. I really dont think there is a problem in listening to a woman that is veiled.

 

[ElRaja]

Interesting way of looking at things.
Can i ask what rationale is there behind praying to God and asking him for good health for instance?
Secondly can we say that you too are brainwashed to act in the way that you do?

firstly, it doesn't take much to understand the reason why people pray whether you think there is any benefit or logic to it or not, even tho i don't pray i can appreciate why others do, and potential psychological benefits of it.

secondly, you can claim i'm brainwashed but i can put together a much better argument for not wearing one, then i have ever heard for wearing one (which has no real argument other than purely religious semantics)

I agree about the chastising part. But i am curious, have you ever talked to a veiled woman? If so, was there any difficulty that you faced in hearing her properly?

not recently, when i was a kid in pakistan, but i dont really remember it.

 

[miandadrules]

I have held thousands of consultations with women in Niqabs and I’ve never had a problem understanding them.

I’m hesitant to pass judgment without reading in to the case but it does seem like his actions were motivated by prejudice.

He probably thought he was liberating her by forcing her to remove it. The irony!

Unfortunately, such prejudice is commonplace.

 

[Madplayer]

firstly, it doesn't take much to understand the reason why people pray whether you think there is any benefit or logic to it or not, even tho i don't pray i can appreciate why others do, and potential psychological benefits of it.

It doesn't take much to understand the reason why a woman would choose to put a veil on either. For the same psychological reasons. To feel pious and closer to God in her own way. Maybe it brings her peace of mind.

secondly, you can claim i'm brainwashed but i can put together a much better argument for not wearing one, then i have ever heard for wearing one (which has no real argument other than purely religious semantics)

Does your ability to argue better in favour of your brainwashed ideas make you less brainwashed? I mean its just an ability to argue better. At the end of the day we are all brainwashed to believe in things that we hold dear.

not recently, when i was a kid in pakistan, but i dont really remember it.

So you concede that audibility might not have been the reason why the doctor asked her remove the veil? It might be because he was offended or simply didnt like the veil? Does it warrant an inquiry?

 

[Chrish]

Heh reminds me of Medicaid patients we see everyday in US. My tax money pays for their insurance and yet they feel entitled like they own everything..

 

[miandadrules]

Heh reminds me of Medicaid patients we see everyday in US. My tax money pays for their insurance and yet they feel entitled like they own everything..

How entitled of them to have healthcare

 

[Robert]

I have held thousands of consultations with women in Niqabs and I’ve never had a problem understanding them.

I’m hesitant to pass judgment without reading in to the case but it does seem like his actions were motivated by prejudice.

He probably thought he was liberating her by forcing her to remove it. The irony!

Unfortunately, such prejudice is commonplace.

Why do you assume force was involved? Rather prejudiced of you! The word in the article is "asking".

 

[Chrish]

How entitled of them to have healthcare

Healthcare isn't universal in US. You can get admitted to hospital for few days if your condition is serious, but normal day-to-day issues are all on you.

 

[miandadrules]

Healthcare isn't universal in US. You can get admitted to hospital for few days if your condition is serious, but normal day-to-day issues are all on you.

How compassionate of you.

 

[miandadrules]

Why do you assume force was involved? Rather prejudiced of you! The word in the article is "asking".

Firstly, I pointed out that I am hesitant to pass judgement with knowing all the facts.

Being a medical professional I have never once had difficulty in understanding a patient in a Niqab, let alone someone accompanying them.

One has to beg the question. An elderly GP, who I assume has been in practice for a number of years. How many times has he made this request and has the frequency increased since the topic has become politicised.

I certainly am prejudiced. I’m prejudiced against all forms of bigotry and persecution.

 

[hadi123]

He's only doing his job. But, it depends on the context, none of us were there, so none of us know the manner in which he said it etc.

 

[Syed1]

The full face veil has no place in the 21st century.

 

[KingKhanWC]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Last Friday the Mirror published an article about a doc facing losing his job for simply asking a lady to remove her face veil. I said at the time something is not right. I have now come across this: the Doc with guess what? <a href="https://twitter.com/aak1880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@aak1880</a> <a href="https://t.co/fCmghACSCv">pic.twitter.com/fCmghACSCv</a></p>— RepStar (@RepiakaMoni) <a href="https://twitter.com/RepiakaMoni/status/1130757909434912768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 21, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Doctor seems to have history with racist behaviour. The article in the op, only tells his side of the story.

So he is a racist. Pretty much settles it and now makes sense he has been suspended.

People need to reign in their own insecurities and predjudices before blaming a victim.

This is the UK, there will be no ban on the face veil because everyone here has a right to wear what they like. If you think the face veil is outdated or should be banned, you are nothing better than the likes of Tommy Robinson who wants all Mosques to be banned because he feels they are not needed in todays world.

 

[Madplayer]

The full face veil has no place in the 21st century.

Why not?

 

[Syed1]

Why not?

It is oppressive and is not even prescribed in Islam.

 

[Madplayer]

It is oppressive and is not even prescribed in Islam.

It is not prescribed in Islam, i agree with that. I am more interested in the philosophy behind calling it oppressive or the reasons given to call for its ban.

Do you think it is oppressive if someone willingly wears it? I am do you think that it is like an oppressed state of mind or what? I am asking this to understand it purely from an academic point of view. Lately i have been more interested in it because my cousin has started wearing it against the wishes of her family (can you believe it lol).

 

[Syed1]

It is not prescribed in Islam, i agree with that. I am more interested in the philosophy behind calling it oppressive or the reasons given to call for its ban.

Do you think it is oppressive if someone willingly wears it? I am do you think that it is like an oppressed state of mind or what? I am asking this to understand it purely from an academic point of view. Lately i have been more interested in it because my cousin has started wearing it against the wishes of her family (can you believe it lol).

In my opinion it is a form of extremism whether the person does it voluntarily or is imposed on her(the latter scenario is even worse). When Islam does not require it why are you going above and beyond and doing something which is not even required inorder to show your piety.

 

[miandadrules]

It is not prescribed in Islam, i agree with that. I am more interested in the philosophy behind calling it oppressive or the reasons given to call for its ban.

Do you think it is oppressive if someone willingly wears it? I am do you think that it is like an oppressed state of mind or what? I am asking this to understand it purely from an academic point of view. Lately i have been more interested in it because my cousin has started wearing it against the wishes of her family (can you believe it lol).

Is it free will if you have been indoctrinated since birth?

Is it free will when your social network insists on it?

 

[miandadrules]

In my opinion it is a form of extremism whether the person does it voluntarily or is imposed on her(the latter scenario is even worse). When Islam does not require it why are you going above and beyond and doing something which is not even required inorder to show your piety.

What does it matter?

A piece of cloth isn’t the dividing line between moderation and extremism.

 

[Technics 1210]

Doctor should not be sacked. A doctor cannot control who visits them, but those who visit a doctor do have a choice. If the doctor needs to diagnose an illness by say checking the tongue, but cannot, and the patient falls further ill, it is not the doctors fault.

If the Muslim female patient doesn't want to be seen by a man, then go see a female doctor. If the Muslim patient doesn't want to remove her Niqab, then do not be expect to be fully diagnosed.

This reminds me of how homosexuals in the UK forced a Christian bakery business to go to court for refusing to accept the customer order.

By the way, the full face Niqab has nothing to do with Islam, but more to do with culture over-spill. Full face Niqabs were used to protect faces during sandstorms, but clearly this practice has over-flowed into religion.

 

[Madplayer]

In my opinion it is a form of extremism whether the person does it voluntarily or is imposed on her(the latter scenario is even worse). When Islam does not require it why are you going above and beyond and doing something which is not even required inorder to show your piety.

There are some issues here.

1) It does look a bit extreme to me as well. But a big glaring question is, should we apply our definition of extreme on others? For some it might seem something normal and not extreme.

2) The Ahlus sunnah wal jamaat holds the view that it is not prescribe in Islam. However, sects like deobandis and Ahle hadiths believe that it is prescribed. Should we impose our interpretations on them?

3) even if we declare it as something extreme by all definitions, it still remains a personal choice which doesnt truly affect anyone else, doesnt it? I mean look, we have people doing other kind of extreme stuff like extreme sports for instance which involves risk of dying, thats extreme too. Nobody asks them to stop though.

In my humble opinion, the philosophy behind asking for its ban is flawed and there are big loopholes which can be exploited. Only one thing which can be agreed upon is that it is a security threat. Then again, we have school shooters in USA who dont wear niqabs

 

[Madplayer]

Is it free will if you have been indoctrinated since birth?

Is it free will when your social network insists on it?

Free will is a really controversial topic to be honest. I believe free will has numerous definitions. Islamically, free will is what decisions you take after you attain knowledge of deen. And i believe thats the case with any knowledge. There cannot be free will in its true sense because we are what our experiences teach us. We dont live in isolation, we cant stay unadulterated.

 

[miandadrules]

Free will is a really controversial topic to be honest. I believe free will has numerous definitions. Islamically, free will is what decisions you take after you attain knowledge of deen. And i believe thats the case with any knowledge. There cannot be free will in its true sense because we are what our experiences teach us. We dont live in isolation, we cant stay unadulterated.

That is very different to the context being discussed.

If you abuse a child from birth and then they grow up insisting they want to be abused, is it free will or is it abuse and exploitation?

 

[KingKhanWC]

That is very different to the context being discussed.

If you abuse a child from birth and then they grow up insisting they want to be abused, is it free will or is it abuse and exploitation?

This type of argument can be used for any society. ie . White athiest liberal parents who allow their child not to think for themselves and promote freedom to have intimate relations at a young age, use drugs, use alcohol etc.

 

[miandadrules]

This type of argument can be used for any society. ie . White athiest liberal parents who allow their child not to think for themselves and promote freedom to have intimate relations at a young age, use drugs, use alcohol etc.

Yes, that’s why it’s called abuse if you give a child drugs, alcohol or encourage sexual relations below the age of consent.

Once again you’re incredible ignorance by using the motte and bailey technique. Unfortunately, you’re bailey is even shakier than the motte. Where is this endemic of white atheist liberals abusing children and stopping them thinking?

How do you stop someone thinking for themselves? Considering you’re are coming from a theocratic defence it seems a perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes, that’s why it’s called abuse if you give a child drugs, alcohol or encourage sexual relations below the age of consent.

Once again you’re incredible ignorance by using the motte and bailey technique. Unfortunately, you’re bailey is even shakier than the motte. Where is this endemic of white atheist liberals abusing children and stopping them thinking?

How do you stop someone thinking for themselves? Considering you’re are coming from a theocratic defence it seems a perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

As always you are getting emotional for no reason.

What is abuse is open to debate. If a religious person brings his/her child up to believe in God, you find it abuse even though the child might lead a happy and good life. A non-religious who brings up his/her child to be free liberal might not have a happy life but you wont call it abuse. If you approach any subject with a pre-determined bias, you will forever remain confused.

 

[Madplayer]

That is very different to the context being discussed.

If you abuse a child from birth and then they grow up insisting they want to be abused, is it free will or is it abuse and exploitation?

It would depend on the norms of that society whether it is considered abuse and exploitation or free will. We as outsiders would judge it based on our norms and values. The question itself is like whirlpool and in my opinion a wrong question to ask. Because you can say this for literally any value that you learn as a child. Child is forced to go to school and ends up having anxiety and depression before becoming an adult. Or he is taught that he has to be better than others at studies. His personality is shaped like that. Is this free will or stripping him of his natural features?

 

[miandadrules]

As always you are getting emotional for no reason.

What is abuse is open to debate. If a religious person brings his/her child up to believe in God, you find it abuse even though the child might lead a happy and good life. A non-religious who brings up his/her child to be free liberal might not have a happy life but you wont call it abuse. If you approach any subject with a pre-determined bias, you will forever remain confused.

Of course! I’m the emotional one.

And once again we change the narrative. From niqab, to white atheists encouraging underage sex and drug abuse, now you switch to believing in God is abuse?

Are you going to substantiate any of these?

Where have I said it’s abuse to raise a child with a belief in God? If you indoctrinate them at birth that they will burn for eternity if they don’t do as you say, it certainly isn’t free will.

Abuse is fine as long as the child is happy?

Amazing!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Of course! I’m the emotional one.

And once again we change the narrative. From niqab, to white atheists encouraging underage sex and drug abuse, now you switch to believing in God is abuse?

Are you going to substantiate any of these?

Where have I said it’s abuse to raise a child with a belief in God? If you indoctrinate them at birth that they will burn for eternity if they don’t do as you say, it certainly isn’t free will.

Abuse is fine as long as the child is happy?

Amazing!

lol. As who does? I know of no family who tells their child they will burn in hell, certainly not mine, speak for youself!

The point is simple, parents bring up children according to their beliefs. What may be one persons of child abuse due to certain indocritnation may not be anothers, so please refrain from attacking religious parents for they way they raise their child.

Off topic, nothing further to add.

 

[miandadrules]

It would depend on the norms of that society whether it is considered abuse and exploitation or free will. We as outsiders would judge it based on our norms and values. The question itself is like whirlpool and in my opinion a wrong question to ask. Because you can say this for literally any value that you learn as a child. Child is forced to go to school and ends up having anxiety and depression before becoming an adult. Or he is taught that he has to be better than others at studies. His personality is shaped like that. Is this free will or stripping him of his natural features?

The question is simple. Is it free will or is it abuse? I don’t think anyone could call it free will. You’re the one who brought will in to it.

Abuse is subjective?

Any value taught is abuse?

Child is forced to go to school because not doing so is abuse. Depriving someone of the tools to think. If the child suffers from anxiety and depression it is society that is at fault and needs to address the issue. Society shouldn’t allow such abuse.

Yes! If you are taught supremacy from a child then that is abuse! Not a hard concept to grasp.

Who’s personality is shaped by what?

What natural features? If you’re going to post a question at least have the decency to frame it correctly.

 

[miandadrules]

lol. As who does? I know of no family who tells their child they will burn in hell, certainly not mine, speak for youself!

The point is simple, parents bring up children according to their beliefs. What may be one persons of child abuse due to certain indocritnation may not be anothers, so please refrain from attacking religious parents for they way they raise their child.

Off topic, nothing further to add.

You’ve added absolutely nothing, let alone further.

So, you couldn’t substantiate anything you said and switched the emphasis on every post.

Religious people don’t teach their children about hell? Very insightful!

 

[Madplayer]

The question is simple. Is it free will or is it abuse? I don’t think anyone could call it free will. You’re the one who brought will in to it.

You cant call anything free will by your own definition.

Abuse is subjective?

Indeed it is subjective. Circumcision is seen as abuse these days in some nations. Iceland banned it recently. However the vast majority of the world doesnt consider it abuse.

Any value taught is abuse?

Not any but many. Its all about how you see it. And Depends on where the value leads the person to. Every Human being is different and responds differently to internalisation of values. Hence we have the concepts of re-socialization or anticipatory socialization in modern sociology which deal with this particular topic and how to counter it. It is a bit technical to discuss here but it should suffice to say that unless you take a case to case approach, you would never know the consequences of internalization of a particular value in human beings with varying personality types. And hence, many values taught could end up being abuse.

Child is forced to go to school because not doing so is abuse. Depriving someone of the tools to think.

Says who? I say the child should learn in the comfort of his house. Its better to not put pressure on a child since a very young age. Hence it is subjective.

The point being that Your entire approach to this discussion is flawed and you are approaching it with one fallacy after another. You seem to be too sure of what is abuse and what is not while at the same time you call everything else as "indoctrination" and leave no room for subjectivity. Classic case of ethoncentricism. Something that people keep falling for subconsciously all the time.

If the child suffers from anxiety and depression it is society that is at fault and needs to address the issue. Society shouldn’t allow such abuse.

Irrelevant. The abuse might stem from the systems placed in by the society. Again the society might not even see it as abuse. And hence, subjectivity.

Yes! If you are taught supremacy from a child then that is abuse! Not a hard concept to grasp.

As per your and my values and norms. In some cultures it is seen as making a child competitive.

Who’s personality is shaped by what?

What natural features?

I thought it was obvious from my post. The kid's personality is shaped by the environment he is put into. He is asked to beat others at studies and get the 1st rank. Perhaps he isnt so competitive by nature. And hence when you try to change this natural feature of his, it has consequences on his mental frame of mind.

If you’re going to post a question at least have the decency to frame it correctly.

Whoa there, no need get so emotional about it.

 

[ElRaja]

It doesn't take much to understand the reason why a woman would choose to put a veil on either. For the same psychological reasons. To feel pious and closer to God in her own way. Maybe it brings her peace of mind.

it does to me, i don't see why anyone would want to cover their face permanently, but if she says she feels close to god in her own way, sure, do what you want in your own way but you cant compare an inarguable religious edict to a cultural fringe practise, you could justify any fringe belief saying it brings its practitioners closer to god, doesn't mean it right, and if i think its wrong ill say so, regardless.

Does your ability to argue better in favour of your brainwashed ideas make you less brainwashed? I mean its just an ability to argue better. At the end of the day we are all brainwashed to believe in things that we hold dear.

yes, if you can elucidate practical reasons for your course of action it means you are most likely gaining some benefit from you actions, a lack of practical reason to carry out an action like wearing a face veil is a sign of some compulsion, whether internal or external. wear it all you want, just don't claim you have any practical reason for doing it, when you patently don't.

So you concede that audibility might not have been the reason why the doctor asked her remove the veil? It might be because he was offended or simply didnt like the veil? Does it warrant an inquiry?

might be, might not, thats why i agreed with kkwc best to wait for the outcome of the inquiry.

 

[Tubs]

Definitely should not be sacked if he simply asked. Even if he was rude about it, I don't think it's grounds for dismissal. If aggression or intimidation were used, they they definitely should be sacked. And it is very strange that he has that Golliwog doll, and points to him being racist, but that is a separate issue and shouldn't be used as evidence of him asking the lady to remove her veil with malicious intent.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Definitely should not be sacked if he simply asked. Even if he was rude about it, I don't think it's grounds for dismissal. If aggression or intimidation were used, they they definitely should be sacked. And it is very strange that he has that Golliwog doll, and points to him being racist, but that is a separate issue and shouldn't be used as evidence of him asking the lady to remove her veil with malicious intent.

Well I have never heard of a doctor having any difficulty hearing a woman wearing a veil so that was strange in itself. Then on reading his interview he hasn't even tried to offer any clarification that he meant to cause no offence, you would think that would be the first thing he would do. Instead he's talking about how sad it is that the country has come to this, and if anything he seems to think the level of support he has received is vindication of his behaviour.

Of course he hasn't actually been sacked, he's only been suspended, but seems to me that he's hoping a Daily Mail inspired campaign might intimidate the judges from following that course. Seems like a rotten egg regardless.

 

[Tubs]

Well I have never heard of a doctor having any difficulty hearing a woman wearing a veil so that was strange in itself. Then on reading his interview he hasn't even tried to offer any clarification that he meant to cause no offence, you would think that would be the first thing he would do. Instead he's talking about how sad it is that the country has come to this, and if anything he seems to think the level of support he has received is vindication of his behaviour.

Of course he hasn't actually been sacked, he's only been suspended, but seems to me that he's hoping a Daily Mail inspired campaign might intimidate the judges from following that course. Seems like a rotten egg regardless.

I do understand that, I just think him asking for it to be removed is not too big of an issue. If it was a hijab, then yes, he should be dealt with (same with a topi, yarmulke, etc). Probably was in poor taste, but a lot of people would prefer seeing the face of the person they are talking to. I am quite mixed on this, but I think the bottom line is no action should be taken against him, but I wouldn't be surprised (or against) his employer (I believe he was freelance?) giving him a talking to, about etiquette and tact.

 

[Madplayer]

it does to me, i don't see why anyone would want to cover their face permanently, but if she says she feels close to god in her own way, sure, do what you want in your own way but you cant compare an inarguable religious edict to a cultural fringe practise, you could justify any fringe belief saying it brings its practitioners closer to god, doesn't mean it right, and if i think its wrong ill say so, regardless.

If you dont see why anyone would want to cover their face in public, then its your personal problem, isnt it? You are able to comprehend the reasons why a person prays but you are not able to comprehend why a woman would choose to put a veil on her face when infact both would claim similar purpose of their actions. Its similar to the case of tribes in south India. The tribal women werent allowed by Nambudiri Brahmans to cover their breasts because it was seen as something against the norms for them while at the same time the Brahmin women were allowed to wear whatever they wanted. This is a philosophical hypocricy to allow one set of women to wear what they want but stop other set from wearing what they deem fit.

The rest of what you wrote is just a utilitarian attempt to justify exclusion of a minority. This is more like a last resort in a philosophical argument.

yes, if you can elucidate practical reasons for your course of action it means you are most likely gaining some benefit from you actions, a lack of practical reason to carry out an action like wearing a face veil is a sign of some compulsion, whether internal or external. wear it all you want, just don't claim you have any practical reason for doing it, when you patently don't.

I gave you a possible practical reason for it. Of sprituality. However, you have made up your mind that its simply not possible for a woman to wear a veil for her personal spritual reasons based on nothing but your personal style of thinking. This cannot be undone unless you are more open to understanding this phenomenon. Its called cultural relativism.

might be, might not, thats why i agreed with kkwc best to wait for the outcome of the inquiry.

Alright.

 

[Markhor]

No.

I've never made secret my distaste for the burqa. Its an eyesore and totally alien in a Western society where many non-Muslims not only perceive it as intimidatory but also as a symbol of Islamist extremism. It is counter to human nature and our interactions where we pay each other the basic courtesy of seeing each others' face.

People argue that banning the burqa would be counter to liberal values and tolerance. However even in a liberal democracy, society sets limits on one's rights. There is no such thing as absolute freedom or liberty. In some places you cannot burn a flag, cannot drink and drive, cannot use a mobile phone and drive, excessively speed or roam around naked.

The hypocrisy from those opposing the ban is also noteworthy. The same people opposing a burqa ban in the West in the name of "allowing women to wear what they want" are nowhere to be seen when the same freedom is demanded for women in Muslim countries. You cannot have your cake and eat it by earning livelihoods in the West and demand the West compromise with your values when you don't reciprocate the same right to Westerners in Muslim societies.

From a practical point of view - these women will need to reveal their identities anyway at banks, to apply for a driving license, passports, rail cards, student cards etc so there's an already of element of compromise.

 

[Pakpak]

No.

I've never made secret my distaste for the burqa. Its an eyesore and totally alien in a Western society where many non-Muslims not only perceive it as intimidatory but also as a symbol of Islamist extremism. It is counter to human nature and our interactions where we pay each other the basic courtesy of seeing each others' face.

People argue that banning the burqa would be counter to liberal values and tolerance. However even in a liberal democracy, society sets limits on one's rights. There is no such thing as absolute freedom or liberty. In some places you cannot burn a flag, cannot drink and drive, cannot use a mobile phone and drive, excessively speed or roam around naked.

The hypocrisy from those opposing the ban is also noteworthy. The same people opposing a burqa ban in the West in the name of "allowing women to wear what they want" are nowhere to be seen when the same freedom is demanded for women in Muslim countries. You cannot have your cake and eat it by earning livelihoods in the West and demand the West compromise with your values when you don't reciprocate the same right to Westerners in Muslim societies.

From a practical point of view - these women will need to reveal their identities anyway at banks, to apply for a driving license, passports, rail cards, student cards etc so there's an already of element of compromise.

Spot on. However the reply you'll usually get is 'oh but we are an Islamic Republic'.