Should religious indoctrination be allowed to be used on children?

[Devilsadvokat]

Surely telling kids that they and their friends will go to hell if they don't a, b, c borders on child abuse.

Discuss.

 

[JaDed]

Certain aspects of it, yes it is esp if it's forced. But in thatt logic so is nationalism where we are told about wars and freedom from one aspect or standing for National Anthem.

The problem with faith is if it's used as an absolute to teach children that there is no other way then it defn is limiting child's ability.

 

[tonmoy]

Surely telling kids that they and their friends will go to hell if they don't a, b, c borders on child abuse.

Discuss.

Certain aspects of it can be borderline abusive.

Forcing a child to memorize a foreign text for hours without understanding a word of it can be argued as being abusive.
Forcing a child (10-13) to fast is the same
Forcing a child to wear strict religious outfits from a very young age is abusive.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

What about the molvi and his version of the cane, in my childhood our molvi has a plastic pipe, deffo child abuse.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Forcing a child to wear strict religious outfits from a very young age is abusive.

Like hijab etc? For five year olds.

 

[Madplayer]

Is forcing the child to go to school when he is crying child abuse?

 

[DeadBall]

What about the molvi and his version of the cane, in my childhood our molvi has a plastic pipe, deffo child abuse.

https://www.parhlo.com/madrassa-teacher-killed-9-year-old-hussain-speaks-up/ JUst look how nonchalantly he talks about it.

Even though this is a extreme case but the Molvis (especially the ones I knew) did hand out harsh punishments including caning, or putting a pencil between the fingers and pressing (hurt like hell), etc. Problem is most parents don't say anything as they are supposed to be giving religious lessons and a little kutayi here and there is alright. Not to mention I have witnessed Moulvis teaching children in countries where they are away from their spouses or other sources of release administer other kinds of abuses to the kids too.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How would you monitor child abuse in this case? Let me give you an example:

A young 8 year old girl is being brought up by atheist parents who are sexually abusing her a la Fred West or Gary Glitter. Her friend who is goes to Sunday school says she must report her parents as they are bound for hell. Is her friend more guilty of abuse or her parents?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

How would you monitor child abuse in this case? Let me give you an example:

A young 8 year old girl is being brought up by atheist parents who are sexually abusing her a la Fred West or Gary Glitter. Her friend who is goes to Sunday school says she must report her parents as they are bound for hell. Is her friend more guilty of abuse or her parents?

I'm afraid you don't get to ask questions of me, you never answer any of mine.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Is forcing the child to go to school when he is crying child abuse?

Is the school going to teach that if said kid doesn't learn his multiplication tables, he will burn in hell forever?

 

[the Great Khan]

Telling a kid there is no hope and you can essentially do whatever the hell you want, because when you die you just turn into plant food , is the worst thing you can do..

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sure, lets do what athiests do, celebrate Xmas and indocrinate children a big fat man with a beard will be buying them gifts at xmas.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Is the school going to teach that if said kid doesn't learn his multiplication tables, he will burn in hell forever?

Trust me. Being constantly reminded about failing in life without essential maths skills is worst than being indoctrinated about going to hell AFTER you die.

 

[CricketDon]

Is forcing the child to go to school when he is crying child abuse?

Talk about murdering logic. A child cry’s to go to school? What are you on about. A child only cries their first time because it’s their first day and they don’t want to leave their parents. After that they are fine. And crying is rare.

You ain’t comparing getting an education and being a contributing member of society to to being forced and indoctrinated to believing in a bearded man in the Sky that’s all love and compassion but will send you to hell for all eternity..

 

[chacha kashmiri]

It’s up to the kids who they want to follow
Unfortunately most kids can’t feed and dress themselves and most schools don’t have the facilities to have hostels for them either

Which is generally where parents and their self beliefs come into the equations

 

[Eagle_Eye]

why not go one step further and have the state issue SOP on how to live your life, what to think, what to say... if anyone disagrees, they get shipped off to 'education camps'.

 

[slipcatch]

Why are Atheist always shoving their belief’s down other people’s throats?

Why can’t they practice in private ?

 

[gazza619]

Sure, lets do what athiests do, celebrate Xmas and indocrinate children a big fat man with a beard will be buying them gifts at xmas.

Dont think it is right to bring Athiesm in this discussion. There is already a seperate thread on that and some people are glued to it religiously (or shall I say athiestically 24/7).

On thread a parent teaches a child what is best for them. Making parenting rules will actually create an opportunity for abuse by the children.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Dont think it is right to bring Athiesm in this discussion. There is already a seperate thread on that and some people are glued to it religiously (or shall I say athiestically 24/7).

On thread a parent teaches a child what is best for them. Making parenting rules will actually create an opportunity for abuse by the children.

Perhaps but the OP mentioned teaching kids about hell.

Every parent indocrinates a child to some but its usually to make them feel happy or for them to understand the culture they have been born in.

 

[Madplayer]

Is the school going to teach that if said kid doesn't learn his multiplication tables, he will burn in hell forever?

Nice try. Children are constantly made to feel that they would be failures in life if they dont do well in school and get good grades. Many students commit suicide because of such pressure and some develop life long mental and behavioural issues.

 

[Madplayer]

Talk about murdering logic. A child cry’s to go to school? What are you on about. A child only cries their first time because it’s their first day and they don’t want to leave their parents. After that they are fine. And crying is rare.

The one who has murdered logic and appeared as a hypocrite is you. No offence. A child only cries the first time? Pretty sure you have been to school and would know better about the many issues that keep popping up in a child's school life from pressure of getting good grades to coping with bullying. Please Dont see only what you want to see.

You ain’t comparing getting an education and being a contributing member of society to to being forced and indoctrinated to believing in a bearded man in the Sky that’s all love and compassion but will send you to hell for all eternity..

What makes you think becoming religious prevents somebody from becoming a contributing member of the society? For thousands of years religious civilisations took the world forward.
The biggest point like atheists like you keep missing is that parents ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the God which they tell their kids about. They dont just make Him up all of a sudden and tell the kid. They believe in Him like they believe in any other reality. Take a moment and try to get your head around it.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Perhaps I didn't make my self clear in the OP and I must recognise the fact that not all of you read all my posts but if you look on another thread where I first mentioned this, I did say that I think it should be regulated, it should start later and both views should be taught as a worldview as opposed to Science and Religion, maybe extol the virtues of secularism. I just feel for kids who could be pursuing so many activities rocking back and forth reading a language they don't understand in parrot fashion.

Sure teach them your values and your morals but as I am finding out being taught rote fashion and drowned in religion doesn't give rise to lateral or critical thinkers.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Perhaps I didn't make my self clear in the OP and I must recognise the fact that not all of you read all my posts but if you look on another thread where I first mentioned this, I did say that I think it should be regulated, it should start later and both views should be taught as a worldview as opposed to Science and Religion, maybe extol the virtues of secularism. I just feel for kids who could be pursuing so many activities rocking back and forth reading a language they don't understand in parrot fashion.

Sure teach them your values and your morals but as I am finding out being taught rote fashion and drowned in religion doesn't give rise to lateral or critical thinkers.

Because the UK and Pakistan is filled of such lateral and critical thinkers
They seem to be flowing out of every London and Karachi school in abundance at the minute

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Because the UK and Pakistan is filled of such lateral and critical thinkers
They seem to be flowing out of every London and Karachi school in abundance at the minute

I am detecting sarcasm, but if it is, it's not been done well.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

As long as a person is not hurting anyone I don’t care if that person is ‘drowned in religion’. Critical thinking is not something that you can teach or indoctrinate. Even if you take out religion it doesn’t automatically guarantee ‘enlightenment’. People and societies evolve on their own. You can’t make them evolve. Australian and Canadian aboriginals are a perfect example of this. The colonisers tried to ‘civilise’ and ‘enlighten’ the ‘heathens’ and ‘savages’ and it only caused pain, death, misery and near extinction. So stopping ppl to teach their religion to their future generation is probably not the right idea. This atheist project is only the extension of colonising project.

 

[the Great Khan]

Perhaps I didn't make my self clear in the OP and I must recognise the fact that not all of you read all my posts but if you look on another thread where I first mentioned this, I did say that I think it should be regulated, it should start later and both views should be taught as a worldview as opposed to Science and Religion, maybe extol the virtues of secularism. I just feel for kids who could be pursuing so many activities rocking back and forth reading a language they don't understand in parrot fashion.

Sure teach them your values and your morals but as I am finding out being taught rote fashion and drowned in religion doesn't give rise to lateral or critical thinkers.

So instead of religious indoctrination you advocate secular indoctrination by the state..like Stalin and Mao did??

 

[Devilsadvokat]

So instead of religious indoctrination you advocate secular indoctrination by the state..like Stalin and Mao did??

They were more totalitarian regimes than atheistic, even tho the state didn't believe in God. Their names get bandied about as red herrings. They certainly were not secular, which means separation of state and church, they had all state and no church, in fact like countries now whose church/mosque is all state.

In secular society you are still allowed freedom of religion. I am just saying parents shouldn't entrust mosques as two hours their kids are out of their hair being taught 'facts' that there brains cannot fathom. If you are a thick kid you may not ascertain the horror of hell but some kids are self-aware at an earlier age.

For the third time, I would not advocate full banning, but ten hours a week could be better spent.

The average Muslim plays lip service to his religion until one foot is in the grave, you know what I mean.

Tell them like the BBC has to when it inadvertently names a product, that their are other opinions and beliefs available.

 

[the Great Khan]

They were more totalitarian regimes than atheistic, even tho the state didn't believe in God. Their names get bandied about as red herrings. They certainly were not secular, which means separation of state and church, they had all state and no church, in fact like countries now whose church/mosque is all state.

so what were they? secular extremists? atheists? totalitarian atheists? either way they were atheists and believed the state should intervene in the lives of its people.

In secular society you are still allowed freedom of religion. I am just saying parents shouldn't entrust mosques as two hours their kids are out of their hair being taught 'facts' that there brains cannot fathom. If you are a thick kid you may not ascertain the horror of hell but some kids are self-aware at an earlier age.

so you espouse freedom of religion but don't allow parents the choice to inform their children about the religion while the school informs them about the secular way of life? are you not then advocating no freedom of religion and only one form of indoctrination. The secular form via schools?. If that is the case how are children supposed to "make their minds up" as you say?

For the third time, I would not advocate full banning, but ten hours a week could be better spent.

when do parents get the right to inform their children about their religion? and in an expert way so they can make an objective decision later in life?

The average Muslim plays lip service to his religion until one foot is in the grave, you know what I mean.

How do you know this? do you have any quantifiable statistics to prove that out of 1.6billion Muslims on this planet the average Muslim is not really a Muslim?

Tell them like the BBC has to when it inadvertently names a product, that their are other opinions and beliefs available.

yes they are told that. In school. You see school says this is a the secular way of life and parents then teach the children their particular culture and religion. Your advocating that school should teach a secular way of life and parents must be stopped from teaching children their religion.

sounds like a secular dictatorship to me. Or perhaps our secular friends are not as secure in their beliefs as they think..

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Why do people respond to points within the post of the person they are posting too, it makes the return response harder to compose to respond to each point. Fear not, I will persevere, but this lamb shawarma will not eat itself.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Why are Atheist always shoving their belief’s down other people’s throats?

I don't have a belief in God, leprechauns, fairies at the bottom of the garden or the Holy Ghost.

Why can’t they practice in private ?

How do I practice my non-belief in leprechauns in private?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Nice try. Children are constantly made to feel that they would be failures in life if they dont do well in school and get good grades.

No, they are made to feel that way by Indian parents, wish Pakistani parents were nearly the same.

It may once have been the case but in school nowadays everyone is a winner

Many students commit suicide because of such pressure and some develop life long mental and behavioural issues.

Percentages please? There will always be casualties in any system. Are you now gonna say suicide bombers are the casualties of Islam?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Sure, lets do what athiests do, celebrate Xmas and indocrinate children a big fat man with a beard will be buying them gifts at xmas.

How did I miss this gem? Oh yes I told you to entertain yourself. Now let's see if you can think laterally. Follow the analogy

Father Christmas is God for adults.

Both promise good things to whoever is good, just that kids stop believing way before they are adults.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't have a belief in God, leprechauns, fairies at the bottom of the garden or the Holy Ghost.



How do I practice my non-belief in leprechauns in private?

Quite easily, log off and go and write in your diary about it.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Quite easily, log off and go and write in your diary about it.

Jog on if you don't have something to bring to the conversation.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Certain aspects of it, yes it is esp if it's forced. But in thatt logic so is nationalism where we are told about wars and freedom from one aspect or standing for National Anthem.

Which form of nationalism says that you will burn in hell for eternity??

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Jog on if you don't have something to bring to the conversation.

It was a direct answer to the question you raised on a public forum. Perhaps you should jog on if you don't want any answers.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I don't have a belief in God, leprechauns, fairies at the bottom of the garden or the Holy Ghost.



How do I practice my non-belief in leprechauns in private?

That's for you to workout. Quite contemplation with a wry smug smile maybe?

 

[KingKhanWC]

How did I miss this gem? Oh yes I told you to entertain yourself. Now let's see if you can think laterally. Follow the analogy

Father Christmas is God for adults.

Both promise good things to whoever is good, just that kids stop believing way before they are adults.

Why when you are very entertaining.

Kids stop believing in many things including God when they grow up.

But your ok with indoctrinting kids with a fat bloke with a beard.

How about the tooth fairy? Is that ok too?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

But your ok with indoctrinting kids with a fat bloke with a beard.

How about the tooth fairy? Is that ok too?

Who as an adult believes in Father Christmas or Tooth Fairy? I want God (who has as much evidence IRL as the tooth fairy does) to be the same.

I guess we are talking different levels if indoctrination.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

It was a direct answer to the question you raised on a public forum. Perhaps you should jog on if you don't want any answers.

Fella, I have asked you enough questions, never been rude when you fail to answer.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

yes they are told that. In school. You see school says this is a the secular way of life and parents then teach the children their particular culture and religion. Your advocating that school should teach a secular way of life and parents must be stopped from teaching children their religion.

sounds like a secular dictatorship to me. Or perhaps our secular friends are not as secure in their beliefs as they think..

I haven't forgotten this, I will tackle, Cap E Tan take example from The Great Khan on how to be substantive and not write like a wannabee author.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Fella, I have asked you enough questions, never been rude when you fail to answer.

Not being available 24/7 isn't being rude, I will happily answer any topic related questions when I can curate them from your general ramblings about where I am, have I been to church or eating Sunday dinner etc. Try sticking to one point at a time and we can get somewhere.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Not being available 24/7 isn't being rude, I will happily answer any topic related questions when I can curate them from your general ramblings about where I am, have I been to church or eating Sunday dinner etc. Try sticking to one point at a time and we can get somewhere.

Look let's not make this any more difficult than it needs to be. Some questions have been hanging for days, at least take them up on your third/fourth presence but no you'd rather work on snide remarks instead.

Rambling, I am learning to breakdown replies as I know the youth and yourself can't keep concentration long enough to read 250 words.

Sunday dinner, it's Wednesday!!

 

[CricketDon]

The one who has murdered logic and appeared as a hypocrite is you. No offence. A child only cries the first time? Pretty sure you have been to school and would know better about the many issues that keep popping up in a child's school life from pressure of getting good grades to coping with bullying. Please Dont see only what you want to see.



What makes you think becoming religious prevents somebody from becoming a contributing member of the society? For thousands of years religious civilisations took the world forward.
The biggest point like atheists like you keep missing is that parents ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the God which they tell their kids about. They dont just make Him up all of a sudden and tell the kid. They believe in Him like they believe in any other reality. Take a moment and try to get your head around it.

Stawman argument at best.

I’m not atheist for one. I don’t identify with anything. I believe Spider-Man is real on my head, is he now a reality or a delusion in my head? Also the great al ghazal I destroyed science and mathematics in the Muslim world. He called mathematics and science manipulation and from Satan.

 

[Mages]

Who as an adult believes in Father Christmas or Tooth Fairy? I want God (who has as much evidence IRL as the tooth fairy does) to be the same.

I guess we are talking different levels if indoctrination.

Btw, do you beat your kids if they refuse to believe in Tooth Fairy?

(Sabrah bin Ma'bad al-Juhni) narrated that:
Allah's Messenger (S) said: "Teach the boy Salat when he is seven years old, and beat him (if he does not pray) when he is ten."
Reference : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 407

 

[chacha kashmiri]

I am detecting sarcasm, but if it is, it's not been done well.

I’d love to meet you at your court with aplomb and paint you a vivid geometrical representation of the planet but I’m just not that bright and science isn’t something I was gifted with

 

[Darkrai]

Yes, because no parent would want their children to go to hell. To make them a better person and a better muslim it is necessary to start teaching them at a very young age.

 

[Mages]

Yes, because no parent would want their children to go to hell. To make them a better person and a better muslim it is necessary to start teaching them at a very young age.

Good for your kids you live n a place where corporal punishment is legal. Beating them for not praying, fasting, reciting etc will help instill faith & save them from Hellfire actually. It's the Sunnah ,so who has the right to object?

Anyway, during every smacking, please limit it to ten blows at a time as this fatwa advices.

How do we smack children to make them pray?
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/127233/how-to-smack-children-to-make-them-pray

Unfortunately some mullahs, all over the world become overzealous and hit students even before they are ten years old. Happens frequently, like this one even yesterday.

Girl 9, beaten to death after failing to recite Quran in Madrasa
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001304373/girl-9-beaten-to-death-after-failing-to-recite-quran

 

[Darkrai]

Good for your kids you live n a place where corporal punishment is legal. Beating them for not praying, fasting, reciting etc will help instill faith & save them from Hellfire actually. It's the Sunnah ,so who has the right to object?

Anyway, during every smacking, please limit it to ten blows at a time as this fatwa advices.

How do we smack children to make them pray?
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/127233/how-to-smack-children-to-make-them-pray

Unfortunately some mullahs, all over the world become overzealous and hit students even before they are ten years old. Happens frequently, like this one even yesterday.

Girl 9, beaten to death after failing to recite Quran in Madrasa
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2001304373/girl-9-beaten-to-death-after-failing-to-recite-quran

It's different in different countries. In Pakistan teachers will beat you with a stick for not doing homework or misbehaving in class. I'm not talking about Islam here. I'm talking about subjects such math, science, etc. So for me the idea of smacking your kid for his own good isn't the worst thing.

I personally know many people who were very bad kids, i mean they disrespected their parents and did bad things. Some of them are my cousins. Those whose parents smacked them for their behavior, when they were young, are now very well set in life. One is an engineer, one is in medical, and one is in a high position in army. Their parents only punished them when they were young because that is the time that shapes ones life. When i went back to Pakistan couple of years ago, i had a talk with one of them about how his father used smack him around when he was young. He said if his father hadn't done that, he would have been a much different person today. He was grateful to his father for making him the person he is today. Those whose parents didn't do anything or didn't make the effort to guide their kids to the right path, are not doing so well. at the moment.

Of course you do not cross your limits when you are punishing your kids. Hurting them is not the points, the whole reason for punishment is for their betterment.

Most of the times it is not necessary to hit you kid, if you talk with them the right way that should be enough. It all depends on how you raise your kids.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

[MENTION=147223]Devilsadvokat[/MENTION]
Reading the OP, it sounds like religious indoctrination is some kind of illegal experiment that is morally wrong and unfair to the child.

Also, since no one is addressing the elephant in the room, let me make it clear that IMO there's a sense of Islamophobia going around in the 1st few posts regarding "forcing" children to fast at 12 or read Quran without understanding or wear hijab from an early age and all of this is being equated to "abuse" which is a gross comparison. What kind of psychological instability will a child suffer from if they read something they don't understand? What kind of physical abuse will a child suffer from if she wears a hijab or fasts?

This thread is just so cynical to the point that its cringeworthy. 99% of the time, parents know what's best for their kids until they become independent. Therefore a parent has every right to make their child read Quran if they feel that it'll make their children good Muslims/humans. Similar point for fasting and hijab. I've no idea how such noble intentions of parents could ever be amounted to something as atrocious as "abuse"

 

[JaDed]

Yes, because no parent would want their children to go to hell. To make them a better person and a better muslim it is necessary to start teaching them at a very young age.

Who goes to hell can you explain?

 

[tonmoy]

[MENTION=147223]Devilsadvokat[/MENTION]
Reading the OP, it sounds like religious indoctrination is some kind of illegal experiment that is morally wrong and unfair to the child.

Also, since no one is addressing the elephant in the room, let me make it clear that IMO there's a sense of Islamophobia going around in the 1st few posts regarding "forcing" children to fast at 12 or read Quran without understanding or wear hijab from an early age and all of this is being equated to "abuse" which is a gross comparison. What kind of psychological instability will a child suffer from if they read something they don't understand? What kind of physical abuse will a child suffer from if she wears a hijab or fasts?

This thread is just so cynical to the point that its cringeworthy. 99% of the time, parents know what's best for their kids until they become independent. Therefore a parent has every right to make their child read Quran if they feel that it'll make their children good Muslims/humans. Similar point for fasting and hijab. I've no idea how such noble intentions of parents could ever be amounted to something as atrocious as "abuse"

You need to define what is "Islamophobia"?
When my employer criticizes me for valid reason, I do not shout "Brown hater","racist", "atheist o phobe" etc etc at him. When you make an accusation, please define the reasoning behind the accusation.

What kind of a world are we living in where a child needs to cover herself so that certain men do not become attracted to her? The problem is with the man and not the child. The man should be blindfolded or locked up instead of the child forced to cover herself. Forcing a child to cover herself is admitting that a man is allowed to be attracted to a child. That my friend is cringe worthy.

Forcing a child to sit and memorize a text in foreign language and depriving him/her of other forms of learning or entertainment is borderline abusive. They are harming the child.

Depriving a child of food and water for upwards of 18 hours a day is also abuse.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

You need to define what is "Islamophobia"?
When my employer criticizes me for valid reason, I do not shout "Brown hater","racist", "atheist o phobe" etc etc at him. When you make an accusation, please define the reasoning behind the accusation.

What kind of a world are we living in where a child needs to cover herself so that certain men do not become attracted to her? The problem is with the man and not the child. The man should be blindfolded or locked up instead of the child forced to cover herself. Forcing a child to cover herself is admitting that a man is allowed to be attracted to a child. That my friend is cringe worthy.

Forcing a child to sit and memorize a text in foreign language and depriving him/her of other forms of learning or entertainment is borderline abusive. They are harming the child.

Depriving a child of food and water for upwards of 18 hours a day is also abuse.

I call it Islamophobia as mostly Islamic practices are being bashed for being "abusive" towards the child.

My daughter (if reached puberty) should cover herself because I don't trust any man and no man has pervert written on his head, in case you were wondering. And no, it is obviously not admitting; it is a necessary precaution in this wicked world because everyone knows men are beasts/wolves when it comes to being attracted to a girl.

No one deprives any child from other forms of learning. Memorizing Quran and having a routine school/college education are mutually exclusive. Both can and do exist without any inconveniences. Hence no way is this gonna harm a child.

How convenient of you to pick out the longest fast most Muslims could observe in areas like UK/EU. Again "forced" is a harsh word and no child atleast before puberty is "forced" to fast. Children are just trained to fast by increasing the number of days they fast with every passing Ramadan, before puberty that is. So it all depends on the child's convenience as far as fasting is considered.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Not read any replies yet, will attend later today or tomorrow In Shaa Allah

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Not read any replies yet, will attend later today or tomorrow In Shaa Allah

You're an agnostic, right?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You're an agnostic, right?

I was Muslim, I might say bless you to someone who sneezed don't mean I'm Christian, I might even say Aloha, doesn't mean I'm Hawaiian

 

[YousafTheBeast]

I was Muslim, I might say bless you to someone who sneezed don't mean I'm Christian, I might even say Aloha, doesn't mean I'm Hawaiian

Arabic Christians say inshaAllah too so...

 

[Markhor]

It cannot be the role of the state to regulate how parents raise their children politically or spiritually, unless they are promoting violent extremist ideology.

I think where the OP has a stronger argument is this notion of parents packing their kids off to a mosque where they rock back and forth memorising a text in a language they cannot comprehend, and call that "religious education". I wouldn't class that as "abuse" but educationally stunting. Education is meant to serve as a source of enlightenment and knowledge than teach rituals. Unfortunately across the Muslim world, Pakistan especially, religion has been reduced to a series of rituals. It's not surprising why many people think blasphemy laws are Quranically ordained when actually it is a British colonial era law.

What would be more productive is explaining to a child the context these verses were written in and promoting the positive messages from religion such as forgiveness, compassion to the poor, and tolerance. To teach their child the importance of using logic and reason (something fundamentalists don't ever want).

As for why parents don't teach their kids about other religions, well Pepsi aren't going to go around telling folks how great Coca-Cola is.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

It cannot be the role of the state to regulate how parents raise their children politically or spiritually, unless they are promoting violent extremist ideology.

Tis impractical.

I think where the OP has a stronger argument is this notion of parents packing their kids off to a mosque where they rock back and forth memorising a text in a language they cannot comprehend, and call that "religious education". I wouldn't class that as "abuse" but educationally stunting. Education is meant to serve as a source of enlightenment and knowledge than teach rituals. Unfortunately across the Muslim world, Pakistan especially, religion has been reduced to a series of rituals. It's not surprising why many people think blasphemy laws are Quranically ordained when actually it is a British colonial era law.

Mosques double up as after school childminding, parents think only good can come from two hours every week day, for maybe a decade.

I think two hours a week is suffice for teaching namaaz and Qur'an, a little homework and you are done. Morals are taught at home.

Whereas other communities have to arrange activities for their children whether social or educational, we send them to learn parrot fashion, about the worse form of teaching possible and take up the maximum time available.

Imagine those hours used for summat more productive on Earth, let alone the doors of opportunity that close due to the teachings of religion.

As long as kids know by about 12, how to pray and recite Arabic job is a good one.

To reduce the potential of any child is abuse.

What would be more productive is explaining to a child the context these verses were written in and promoting the positive messages from religion such as forgiveness, compassion to the poor, and tolerance. To teach their child the importance of using logic and reason (something fundamentalists don't ever want).

Explain the context? Sure some kids will get at 7, others at 12, so surely this is done better at home. It's not as if only religion teaches forgiveness, compassion and tolerance. Give them Aesops fables, much more interesting and easy to swallow.

Logic and reason? That takes effort and eventually away from the core message. When I was young the idea of a Muslim was one of generous, humble and soft-hearted, it isn't now, now it's the Christians who occupy that description.

As for why parents don't teach their kids about other religions, well Pepsi aren't going to go around telling folks how great Coca-Cola is.

Every kid should at least by the age of 14 know that Evolution is a fact, they are lucky Science and secularism are not interested in brainwashing them with facts.

 

[PakLFC]

They should be used to only teach human values. The more controversial verses in religious text can easily be misunderstood by young minds so let them grow up a bit before they start tackling them. Amongst Muslims often Madrassa teachers themselves are ignorant and misinformed with an "Muslims against non-Muslims" attitude. Being brainwashed form a very young age is a very dangerous thing. Let kids be kids and make friends from all backgrounds.

 

[Musakhel]

I was taught evolution in school basics around age 14, never in a masjid did the Maulvi ever mention evolution, it was mostly memorization and recitation for a good 10 years.

 

[Buffet]

If you look at the Old Testament, you can find verses that support slavery, Murder, and even rape. I think it would be child abuse to teach the Old Testament as truth as to a child who does not know how to think for itself. Getting roasted in hell fire for eternity for not believing in it? Imagine how a child will feel thinking about it.

Teach a child that those who do not share the religion are less worthy of the riches of life and happiness and you are teaching that child to be a supremacist.

Teaching aspect of religion which can't be proved, but ultimately harmless is one thing, but it doesn't stop there. I personally don't have issue in teaching harmless stuff.

You can't drive under 16, vote under 18 and drink under 18, but you can have a God at the age of four?

Stockholm Syndrome tends to prevent these children realizing that they are the victims of abuse. They often either go on to be an abuser or they will vehemently defend abusers.

 

[Darkrai]

Who goes to hell can you explain?

For starters, those who do not believe in God and those who commit sins.

I lived in Pakistan for about 12 years, I've never come across anyone who felt they were being abused through religion. You will be able to find many problems in Pakistan for women and children, but religion isn't one of them. In fact I've always felt religion connected everyone. Even when i go to mosque in USA, and i don't know anyone there, i feel at ease because there is a brotherhood type of feeling. Everyone there is equal, and there for the same purpose. When i go back to Pakistan i always feel, even though there may be many problems, religion is what connects people there.

 

[Sadozai]

Certain aspects of it can be borderline abusive.

Forcing a child to memorize a foreign text for hours without understanding a word of it can be argued as being abusive.
Forcing a child (10-13) to fast is the same
Forcing a child to wear strict religious outfits from a very young age is abusive.

indeed

 

[tonmoy]

I call it Islamophobia as mostly Islamic practices are being bashed for being "abusive" towards the child.

My daughter (if reached puberty) should cover herself because I don't trust any man and no man has pervert written on his head, in case you were wondering. And no, it is obviously not admitting; it is a necessary precaution in this wicked world because everyone knows men are beasts/wolves when it comes to being attracted to a girl.

No one deprives any child from other forms of learning. Memorizing Quran and having a routine school/college education are mutually exclusive. Both can and do exist without any inconveniences. Hence no way is this gonna harm a child.

How convenient of you to pick out the longest fast most Muslims could observe in areas like UK/EU. Again "forced" is a harsh word and no child atleast before puberty is "forced" to fast. Children are just trained to fast by increasing the number of days they fast with every passing Ramadan, before puberty that is. So it all depends on the child's convenience as far as fasting is considered.

If criticism is fair and your best response is "islamophobia" than it makes the debate futile.
If certain practices are abusive than it will be bashed for being abusive (Islam or otherwise).

When you force your child to read and memorize a foreign text, you are taking away a valuable time from his/her life that he/she can spent on more productive activities. Time is limited. They will not get their childhood back. If this is not abuse, I do not know what abuse means.


Now dress Code:

If you take you child to a beach and deprive her of swimming in the ocean than that is borderline abuse. You are depriving your child of some of the greatest joys in life.

My question to you is
" Suppose religion did not force a dress code, Would you still force your daughter to dress the same way(as prescribed by religion) when she reached puberty? "

Finally, in terms of fasting,
I am only talking about the prescribed hours. In certain countries near the arctic (Finland, Norway), the hours are worse. The funny thing is, that while fasting is a major pillar of islam, yet no body is sure about the standard to follow.
Anyways, as I said, you are depriving your child food and water to appease God.. I am sorry but that is abuse.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I call it Islamophobia as mostly Islamic practices are being bashed for being "abusive" towards the child.

Perhaps the focus is on Islam in all these threads because the critics recognise that other religions aren't taken seriously by even their own followers. Why bother addressing Hinduism, Christianity or the Sikh faith for example if the feeling is that parents don't want to pass on those values to their children in the modern era?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Perhaps the focus is on Islam in all these threads because the critics recognise that other religions aren't taken seriously by even their own followers. Why bother addressing Hinduism, Christianity or the Sikh faith for example if the feeling is that parents don't want to pass on those values to their children in the modern era?

They do pass on their values, they just don't send nearly every night of the year, every school night for sure for the average 8, 10 years. Then at mosque, it is learn s language you don't understand, parrot fashion.

Christians manage it with Sunday school, thee hours a week mosque time is quite enough for them to take ten years to learn how to read namaaz.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

If criticism is fair and your best response is "islamophobia" than it makes the debate futile.
If certain practices are abusive than it will be bashed for being abusive (Islam or otherwise).

"Abusive" is an extremely harsh word that is being thrown around like straw here. The criticism isn't fair which is exactly why I'm calling it "Islamophobia". We have caste system in Hinduism where certain people are labelled "untouchables" and yet we found fasting and memorization of Quran as abuse. What an absolute joke of a debate. If you call that fair then you, Sir, need a trip to the psychologist ASAP.

When you force your child to read and memorize a foreign text, you are taking away a valuable time from his/her life that he/she can spent on more productive activities. Time is limited. They will not get their childhood back. If this is not abuse, I do not know what abuse means.

Exactly, you have NO IDEA what abuse means. Just because you're not a Muslim, it doesn't mean that reading/memorising Quran is "futile" or "non-productive". Personally, I will make them learn the language as well just like we all do with English. Does "precious childhood" and "limited time" go to hell when children are taught to read any English book?


Now dress Code:

If you take you child to a beach and deprive her of swimming in the ocean than that is borderline abuse. You are depriving your child of some of the greatest joys in life.

When did I say don't swim?
Also, are you unaware of the fact that swimming can be done in something other than a bikini?
The attempts to defame hijab........gosh.........childish at best

My question to you is
" Suppose religion did not force a dress code, Would you still force your daughter to dress the same way(as prescribed by religion) when she reached puberty? "

I will certainly ask her to avoid tight, small and see-through clothes.

Finally, in terms of fasting,
I am only talking about the prescribed hours. In certain countries near the arctic (Finland, Norway), the hours are worse. The funny thing is, that while fasting is a major pillar of islam, yet no body is sure about the standard to follow.
Anyways, as I said, you are depriving your child food and water to appease God.. I am sorry but that is abuse.

Ok, 1st of all, everyone knows how to fast and when. Get your facts straight.

Secondly, I'm not depriving anyone from any food or any water. Children have a free will to break their fasts by eating or drinking if they feel that they can't bear the hunger and/or thirst. How the hell is that abuse???

...

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Perhaps the focus is on Islam in all these threads because the critics recognise that other religions aren't taken seriously by even their own followers. Why bother addressing Hinduism, Christianity or the Sikh faith for example if the feeling is that parents don't want to pass on those values to their children in the modern era?

Never thought of it this way. Now that you've said it, I emphatically feel that it might as well be true.

 

[tonmoy]

...

"Abusive" is an extremely harsh word that is being thrown around like straw here. The criticism isn't fair which is exactly why I'm calling it "Islamophobia". We have caste system in Hinduism where certain people are labelled "untouchables" and yet we found fasting and memorization of Quran as abuse. What an absolute joke of a debate. If you call that fair then you, Sir, need a trip to the psychologist ASAP.

What makes you think that anyone here supports caste system? Criticizing one religion does not make the other any better. Stay to the point of the discussion and do not derail the thread.


Exactly, you have NO IDEA what abuse means. Just because you're not a Muslim, it doesn't mean that reading/memorising Quran is "futile" or "non-productive". Personally, I will make them learn the language as well just like we all do with English. Does "precious childhood" and "limited time" go to hell when children are taught to read any English book?

It is not the topic of discussion what you would do personally. The fact is that children are not being allowed to be children. Their precious mind is being forced to read and memorize something that is unproductive. Even if a child is forced to memorize an English book , my reaction would be the same. It is not the language, it is the unproductive nature of the task forced on the child.




When did I say don't swim?
Also, are you unaware of the fact that swimming can be done in something other than a bikini?
The attempts to defame hijab........gosh.........childish at best

When did I mention bikini... You want to force a child to swim wearing a hijab... That is my problem.. hijab means full body including head being covered. Learn your own religion. And you cannot enjoy a swim with whole body and head cover.. that too for a child.. Gosh..



I will certainly ask her to avoid tight, small and see-through clothes.

Tight and see through clothes is not the topic of discussion.. Not Hijab is not equal to see through clothes for crying out loud.



Ok, 1st of all, everyone knows how to fast and when. Get your facts straight.

If everyone knows how and when to fast, can you please enlighten me why some people fast with the Saudis? Why Eid is observed at different dates? How people living in the region experiencing polar nights and days is suppose to fast?


Secondly, I'm not depriving anyone from any food or any water. Children have a free will to break their fasts by eating or drinking if they feel that they can't bear the hunger and/or thirst. How the hell is that abuse???

It is abuse because depriving (including encouraging) a child to fast for 10-22 hours is abuse.




....

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

"Abusive" is an extremely harsh word that is being thrown around like straw here. The criticism isn't fair which is exactly why I'm calling it "Islamophobia". We have caste system in Hinduism where certain people are labelled "untouchables" and yet we found fasting and memorization of Quran as abuse. What an absolute joke of a debate. If you call that fair then you, Sir, need a trip to the psychologist ASAP.

What makes you think that anyone here supports caste system? Criticizing one religion does not make the other any better. Stay to the point of the discussion and do not derail the thread.


Exactly, you have NO IDEA what abuse means. Just because you're not a Muslim, it doesn't mean that reading/memorising Quran is "futile" or "non-productive". Personally, I will make them learn the language as well just like we all do with English. Does "precious childhood" and "limited time" go to hell when children are taught to read any English book?

It is not the topic of discussion what you would do personally. The fact is that children are not being allowed to be children. Their precious mind is being forced to read and memorize something that is unproductive. Even if a child is forced to memorize an English book , my reaction would be the same. It is not the language, it is the unproductive nature of the task forced on the child.




When did I say don't swim?
Also, are you unaware of the fact that swimming can be done in something other than a bikini?
The attempts to defame hijab........gosh.........childish at best

When did I mention bikini... You want to force a child to swim wearing a hijab... That is my problem.. hijab means full body including head being covered. Learn your own religion. And you cannot enjoy a swim with whole body and head cover.. that too for a child.. Gosh..



I will certainly ask her to avoid tight, small and see-through clothes.

Tight and see through clothes is not the topic of discussion.. Not Hijab is not equal to see through clothes for crying out loud.



Ok, 1st of all, everyone knows how to fast and when. Get your facts straight.

If everyone knows how and when to fast, can you please enlighten me why some people fast with the Saudis? Why Eid is observed at different dates? How people living in the region experiencing polar nights and days is suppose to fast?


Secondly, I'm not depriving anyone from any food or any water. Children have a free will to break their fasts by eating or drinking if they feel that they can't bear the hunger and/or thirst. How the hell is that abuse???

It is abuse because depriving (including encouraging) a child to fast for 10-22 hours is abuse.




....

If you don't support caste system, then discuss it as well. I don't understand why only Islamic practices are being highlighted. Just because I highlighted a non-Islamic practice that amounts to even worse abuse doesn't mean that I'm derailing the thread. Mods can second me on this. Nowhere in the OP does it mention Islam yet Islamic practices are the only ones that are being discussed/bashed.

These "unproductive" statements that you keep making are subjective and an opinion. You or I can't decide on behalf of the parents what is productive for their child. Again, just because you aren't a Muslim doesn't mean that memorizing/reading Quran is "unproductive".

When did I say a child should wear hijab?

I thought we were talking about girls who have reached/completed puberty.

So, no I'm not forcing a "child" to put on hijab while swimming or anything else. A child doesn't need to observe Hijab. Period.

And what kind of debater are you? First you ask me what I'd do if Islam didn't mention any dress code and when I answer you say "no its about hijab"? It makes your 1st question invalid, if you haven't realised yet.

Your Islamophobia has elevated to the point that 2 of your consecutive questions contradict each other just because you want to defame Hijab.

Those who fast with KSA or Iran are deluded and ignorant. Islamic guidelines are to follow local sightings of Moon. Same for Eid. Just because people decide to follow a specific country rather than their own religious teachings then it doesn't mean that the teachings are confused. People can be idiots as well, if you don't already know.

Amazingly this "deprivation" and "abuse" that we know as fasting has scientifically been found to be beneficial for health (Source: WebMD)

Now that I've handed over your backside to you; I finally rest my case.

Truth always prevails. Always.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Never thought of it this way. Now that you've said it, I emphatically feel that it might as well be true.

Just check the reply to my theory where the same atheist who has spent weeks obsessively arguing against the concept of God now leaps to the defence of God being proselytised in Christian sunday schools. Confirmation of my suspicions from the horse's mouth. Pointless engaging in debate with these people as they are committed Islamphobes who when they get their threads deleted, have the gall to start new threads under a slightly different description to carry on their campaign.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Just check the reply to my theory where the same atheist who has spent weeks obsessively arguing against the concept of God now leaps to the defence of God being proselytised in Christian sunday schools. Confirmation of my suspicions from the horse's mouth. Pointless engaging in debate with these people as they are committed Islamphobes who when they get their threads deleted, have the gall to start new threads under a slightly different description to carry on their campaign.

CapEtan, you feeling the pressure? Where have I said that teaching Islam should be banned, I've suggested it needs looking at, not all kids are the same, as long as by age 12 they can read namaaz and by 16 have an understanding of what they are being taught, that should be okay. The Christians manage to do that with three hours on a Sunday.

If you think you are what I'm doing, what you are doing far more blatant.

I thought you were _British_, where is your sense of fair play, supporting the underdog, freedom of speech etc.?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Islamophobes!! What does one mean by that? Generally a racist would say 'well I have good reason to not like Islam, good reasons', so how can I have an irrational dislike to it, it is purely rational based on looking at Muslim countries and countries where the percentage of Muslims nudges past the twenty to thirty per cent.

The racist is less concerned by Islamophobia he is using it as a cover for Muslim Phobia. Attacking ideas should be okay, attacking Muslims, is not okay.

Muslims use supposed 'Islamophobia' as an attack on them as individual human beings to cover the fact that the idea of Islam cannot stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

CapEtan you have the choice (free will excepted) of believing or not believing what I am about to say next.

Ten years ago, when I first got broadband I joined a site where it was bbc moderated for Asians.

Most confrontational threads were Pakistan v India and The Rest of the World v Islam.

Well being Pakistani and proud the first was a given but even tho I had no faith left I fought for Islam in the second match up.

 

[the Great Khan]

Islamophobes!! What does one mean by that? Generally a racist would say 'well I have good reason to not like Islam, good reasons', so how can I have an irrational dislike to it, it is purely rational based on looking at Muslim countries and countries where the percentage of Muslims nudges past the twenty to thirty per cent.

The racist is less concerned by Islamophobia he is using it as a cover for Muslim Phobia. Attacking ideas should be okay, attacking Muslims, is not okay.

Muslims use supposed 'Islamophobia' as an attack on them as individual human beings to cover the fact that the idea of Islam cannot stand up to scrutiny.

absolute rubbish. Every idea Of Islam can stand up to scrutiny. Do you think the 20th/21st century was the only time Islam has been scrutinised? the attacks on it are frankly laughable..

 

[tonmoy]

If you don't support caste system, then discuss it as well. I don't understand why only Islamic practices are being highlighted. Just because I highlighted a non-Islamic practice that amounts to even worse abuse doesn't mean that I'm derailing the thread. Mods can second me on this. Nowhere in the OP does it mention Islam yet Islamic practices are the only ones that are being discussed/bashed.

These "unproductive" statements that you keep making are subjective and an opinion. You or I can't decide on behalf of the parents what is productive for their child. Again, just because you aren't a Muslim doesn't mean that memorizing/reading Quran is "unproductive".

When did I say a child should wear hijab?

I thought we were talking about girls who have reached/completed puberty.

So, no I'm not forcing a "child" to put on hijab while swimming or anything else. A child doesn't need to observe Hijab. Period.

And what kind of debater are you? First you ask me what I'd do if Islam didn't mention any dress code and when I answer you say "no its about hijab"? It makes your 1st question invalid, if you haven't realised yet.

Your Islamophobia has elevated to the point that 2 of your consecutive questions contradict each other just because you want to defame Hijab.

Those who fast with KSA or Iran are deluded and ignorant. Islamic guidelines are to follow local sightings of Moon. Same for Eid. Just because people decide to follow a specific country rather than their own religious teachings then it doesn't mean that the teachings are confused. People can be idiots as well, if you don't already know.

Amazingly this "deprivation" and "abuse" that we know as fasting has scientifically been found to be beneficial for health (Source: WebMD)

Now that I've handed over your backside to you; I finally rest my case.

Truth always prevails. Always.

Love debating ultra religious people..... "Kudos" to you boss for "handing over my backside"... lol..

Now for the remainder of people who care to read whats written, here is my answer.

1/ I do not support the caste system. It is old archaic, racist and should be illegal.. Discuss more if you want...Islamic practices are bashed because muslims believe Islam is perfect and there is no scope for change. They would even defend a 6-9 year old marrying a 50 year old man no matter how cringeworthy that sounds. Oh and that falls under child abuse also. Actually its worse.

2/ Can you explain how memorizing a foreign text without understanding a word be a productive exercise? For any sane person It is not productive.. For the religiously insane things are different and I acknowledge that. However it is still abuse.

3/ Ok so if you did not say " A child should wear Hijab" than that means you disagree the practice of forcing a child to wear hijab. That is good to know. Atleast we can all agree that it is abuse.

4/ When you say fasting is "beneficial to health for kids" and you wish to present a source than please provide an appropriate reference. Atleast a link... Also can you answer how a person (child or otherwise) suppose to fast in region experiencing polar day and night?

Have a nice day...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

CapEtan, you feeling the pressure? Where have I said that teaching Islam should be banned, I've suggested it needs looking at, not all kids are the same, as long as by age 12 they can read namaaz and by 16 have an understanding of what they are being taught, that should be okay. The Christians manage to do that with three hours on a Sunday.

If you think you are what I'm doing, what you are doing far more blatant.

I thought you were _British_, where is your sense of fair play, supporting the underdog, freedom of speech etc.?

I didn't say you said Islam should be banned, don't know where you got that from. I assume you are now introducing fake quotes to muddy the discussion because you are feeling the heat. As a Brit of course I will always demand fair play and free speech - not supporting the underdog necessarily, the underdog doesn't always merit it. Not sure how any of that is relevant to this thread though.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

I didn't say you said Islam should be banned, don't know where you got that from. I assume you are now introducing fake quotes to muddy the discussion because you are feeling the heat. As a Brit of course I will always demand fair play and free speech - not supporting the underdog necessarily, the underdog doesn't always merit it. Not sure how any of that is relevant to this thread though.

You didn't say that I said _teaching_ Islam should be banned? Because you said that I seem to think Christianity is ok and o only have it in for Islam.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Just check the reply to my theory where the same atheist who has spent weeks obsessively arguing against the concept of God now leaps to the defence of God being proselytised in Christian sunday schools. Confirmation of my suspicions from the horse's mouth. Pointless engaging in debate with these people as they are committed Islamphobes.

There you say I am ok with Christianity being taught but by then calling me a committed islamaphobe, I took to mean that I am _not_ ok with Islam being taught, if you didn't mean that, what did you mean.

No I am afraid it is you who is muddying quotes. And nothing you say is relevant in any thread, just in case you going to use that to get this thread deleted too.

So again I ask what did you mean by the allegation that I am a committed Islamophobe?