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Should Test cricketing nations be divided into two divisions?

Abdullah719

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West Indies' and Sri Lanka's recent abject performances in Test cricket have revived the discussion about two divisions. Michael Vaughan and Aakash Chopra supported the idea on Twitter while the Tests were ongoing due to the absolute lack of competition between the sides and Michael Holding has weighed in on the topic as well. Is it worth considering? Or are there simply too few Test nations anyway to consider such a radical proposal?

The margin of Windies' defeat re-ignited debate about the validity of introducing two divisions of Test-match cricket.

"That has been in my mind since this Test series started - and I've been talking about it for years," said Holding.

"What is the point of having a team outclassing another team like this?

"I played Test cricket for 12 years. I never played a Test match against Sri Lanka because at that time Sri Lanka just weren't good enough to play against the West Indies.

"What is the point of having a contest like this? It's not good for cricket."

http://www.skysports.com/cricket/ne...ght-team-for-second-test-says-michael-holding
 
Yes, 8/4 seems like a good split with the bottom 2 getting relegated to minnow group every 4 or so years.
 
Only problem is that there is a fear among India, Australia and England regarding relegated to the lower division due to which their profits can take a massive hit, also just imagine England in Top tier and Australia in 2nd Tier, how can there be an Ashes series between the two?
 
Lower tier should be Sri Lanka, West Indies, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Ireland and Afghanistan.

Upper tier should be Australia, India, Pakistan, England, New Zealand and South Africa.
 
Making cricket a more competitive sport is a great idea but then again a relegation system is going to be a bit weird. How are fixture's going to be made in such short time and if a team grabs enough points to move up one tier and hence the team above would move down a tier as a result, then how would we explain that? I also agree on the "fear" that India, Aus and Eng would get relegated eventually and their profits would take a hit.

So if we were to disagree on the two division idea, then we would be left with a scenario where eventually a top team would play a super baby minnow team which would result in a run/wicket fest for both batsmen and bowler; basically people would complain about stuff like that. Me personally I think that every country should play with each other a fair number of times rather than the big teams playing more than others (Ind, Aus, Eng).
 
Yes.

If you "fear" getting relegated - then you better ensure your on-field performances are upto the mark.

I would say every year - the top team in the lower division and the lowest team in the upper division should do a 1 match playoff to determine if top team gets promoted/bottom team gets relegated or not.
 
Test cricket is taking a big hit as it is with so many of these one sided series happening as it is.

It is important to save test cricket as it is in the sub continent nobody bothers turning up to watch it apart from in India where the population makes up for the numbers in the stands.

This seems to be a practical way of keeping it going too.
 
Yes for mine. That might give a few sides the kick up the backside they really need.
 
Better to have only top 6 nations play test cricket.

Lack of crowd in the lower tier would mean end of test. No1 is going to pay to watch SL take on WI or Afghanistan
 
Only problem is that there is a fear among India, Australia and England regarding relegated to the lower division due to which their profits can take a massive hit, also just imagine England in Top tier and Australia in 2nd Tier, how can there be an Ashes series between the two?
The current top 3 (including Oz) will not go below 6, if they play enough tests over a cycle of 4 years. This hasn;t happened in like 20~30 years when WI were the kings of test cricket.
 
Won't work. You'll kill any interest in test cricket in those countries if you demote those countries. They'll lose out on revenue unable to play the bigger teams with the two tier model. SL wins at home a lot, and has the ability to win even now. NZ wins tests home and abroad even though they don't win many series. And no one wants Pak tier 2.

The chaos there would be if a bigger team let's say India or even Pakistan dropped down to tier 2. Wouldn't work.

As for the lower ranked sides Bangladesh, Ireland, Zimbabwe, these teams hardly play any tests anyway.

Think a better idea would not to add teams so readily to tests, let them perform in LOIs first, and once they do treat them like a proper test team, give them regular test series like the rest. Bangladesh should have been inducted now, not 20 years or so ago when they were losing every test home and away.

A better change in the rankings would be to increase the number of points for away games vs home. Gives more weight to teams performing away not just teams dominating at home (which is fast becoming the trend, Pak themselves are guilty of this too, not just blaming others). And encourages teams to tour more, even the lower ranked teams if they think they will get decent points.
 
Absolutely. Series such as SLvIND and ENGvWI are greatly one-sided.

Even Ind-Eng and Pakistan-Aus was one sided and venues involved Ind, Eng, UAE and Aus.

At same time Eng-BD was a close series.
 
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I don't think 2 divisions will improve anything - rather it'll dilute stats & make too many greats. Also, division can't filter top & bottom half sides properly in Test cricket because it has a greater impact of home conditions. Despite their recent poor show against IND, still I believe SRL will give AUS, SAF, ENG & NZ a good fight at home while WI recently has taken the series to last Test against PAK & ENG. In soccer, I can say that after the season, it's almost certainly top 4 sides make CL from England or Spain or Italy, but that's not true in Test cricket. When we are touring, we couldn't save a Test to Kiwis after posting 600; but any team will find it difficult to beat BD at home now, and many'll actuly end up losing Tests/Series - but in any judgement, we shouldn't be in top half.

I feel, what we need is a minimum standard for a Test status. The idea is, let's start from Jan 2018 - for next 4 years, teams will play a minimum number of series & they must maintain a minimum points (based in series result, not points on winnings Tests - otherwise when in trouble, bigger boards will call ZIM, IRL or AFGs for 6 Test series), at the end of 4 years cycle, unless - their Test status is stripped off.

Similarly, there should be a 2nd level (FC status), where next top 6 sides plays similar series for 4 years & for a promotion to T day status, any team (s) has to attain a certain points. If that reduces number of Test teams to say 7, I don't mind but it's not healthy that India should play 6 Tests against this SRL side in 5 months gap, while we have 3rd best W/L ratio in last 3 years, because of 3-0 against ZIM & 3 rain interrupted Tests.

For example, if from Jan, I start with 10 teams for next 4/5 years, wehere every team plays at least a 2 Test series home & away with other 9 (18 series), where points are given like -
Home win 2, home draw 1, home loss - 1 (1 point deducted). Away win 4, away draw 2 (or 2.5), away loss 0 (neutral venues has to be considered as home for one), while if a side declines to play series with someone else, their the points are awarded to the other team.

Possible maximum points that one team can get is 54; minimum -9. That's a swing of 63 points - may be we can set a bench mark that to keep Test status, one has to manage 25% of the possible max gap (16 points), otherwise they go down, with a qufifier that not more than 3 to go down, but all 10 can stay put, if they attain 16 points (possible - in total 270 points are on offer). Benchmark can be 33% as well (21 points), but we have to see at least one round to understand the minimum threshold. The cut off par should be declared at the start of 4/5 years cycle.

Similarly, if I take next 8 teams (say AFG, IRL, HOL, Scotland, KEN, Namibia, Canada & probably PNG) play similar 14 series with possible highest point being 42 - teams that can avail 75% of that possible max point (say 30) should get the Test status for next 4/5 years & it goes on.

This should keep both sides honest & there'll be an effort for lesser teams to improve their standard. At present, I don't think this freeloading is helping anyone, neither it'll help if there is 4 divisions with 3 each. That Big 3 was basically 3+6 formula with SAF floating in between & it was the worst idea in cricket to be honest.
 
That would have meant England would never play against us last year. Just saying
 
Honestly, yes. SL, WI, Zim have gone backwards embarrassingly. World cricket will be the stronger if teams have incentive/guaranteed pathway to break into the "exclusive club"

7 in Tier A,
6 in Tier B.
2 year cycle with a Test championship every 2 years from Tier A (1 vs 2) & a Promotion Playoff in the same cycle (bottom of Tier A vs Top of Tier B).

Similarly top ranked associate can play off vs bottom Tier B at same time.

Promotion/relegation play offs + final can be one match, or a 2 match series. Home + away over 3 weeks if 2 matches or all at annually rotated venue? Or home status to higher ranked team so any promotion has to be really earnt.

Would require extra test status conferred on UAE/Netherlands/Scotland to work (I think there should be 7 in top league).
 
Think people are overestimating the issue with difference in strength of team. Yeah Sri Lanka got whitewashed by India. But who else would be able to do that? Most teams will still probably lose against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka.

This Sri Lanka team is also the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime. It probably won't stay this weak forever, especially when their domestic and school structure is generally decent. New Zealand is ranked above us atm, think it's a bit mean to say they should be tier 1. Also kind of funny no one wanted tier 2 on here when Pak was no.7.

The biggest problem I guess is WI. Who lose both away from home and at home. Even then they win the odd test. But to introduce a tier system which will potentially wreck test development in lots of countries over the sake of one is a poor decision. I don't think WI really care about test cricket anymore, the board in the past has reduced the no. of tests to fit in more LOI. And a lot of top WI players are not playing tests, but they're playing T20s. Again though correct me if I'm wrong, WI seem to play fewer test matches than before these days.

Zimbabwe hardly play any test cricket at all. Same with Bangladesh who are improving anyway, and will likely be starting to win series against other test sides at home soon, but they haven't exactly had many test series either.

As always people bring up test championships, test divisions etc., scapegoating the real problem which is tests are dying. The changes have to be done to the game itself. The day/night was a good first step. WI vs Eng was sold out because of it, despite the fact otherwise would be one of the least hyped encounters in the English summer.
 
Silly idea. Today cricket is facing it's biggest challenge with Sri Lanka, South Africa, West Indies all struggling with new talents. Thus, in already a small game with just 8-9 teams, we cannot further differentiate among teams.
 
I don't think 2 divisions will improve anything - rather it'll dilute stats & make too many greats. Also, division can't filter top & bottom half sides properly in Test cricket because it has a greater impact of home conditions. Despite their recent poor show against IND, still I believe SRL will give AUS, SAF, ENG & NZ a good fight at home while WI recently has taken the series to last Test against PAK & ENG. In soccer, I can say that after the season, it's almost certainly top 4 sides make CL from England or Spain or Italy, but that's not true in Test cricket. When we are touring, we couldn't save a Test to Kiwis after posting 600; but any team will find it difficult to beat BD at home now, and many'll actuly end up losing Tests/Series - but in any judgement, we shouldn't be in top half.

I feel, what we need is a minimum standard for a Test status. The idea is, let's start from Jan 2018 - for next 4 years, teams will play a minimum number of series & they must maintain a minimum points (based in series result, not points on winnings Tests - otherwise when in trouble, bigger boards will call ZIM, IRL or AFGs for 6 Test series), at the end of 4 years cycle, unless - their Test status is stripped off.

Similarly, there should be a 2nd level (FC status), where next top 6 sides plays similar series for 4 years & for a promotion to T day status, any team (s) has to attain a certain points. If that reduces number of Test teams to say 7, I don't mind but it's not healthy that India should play 6 Tests against this SRL side in 5 months gap, while we have 3rd best W/L ratio in last 3 years, because of 3-0 against ZIM & 3 rain interrupted Tests.

For example, if from Jan, I start with 10 teams for next 4/5 years, wehere every team plays at least a 2 Test series home & away with other 9 (18 series), where points are given like -
Home win 2, home draw 1, home loss - 1 (1 point deducted). Away win 4, away draw 2 (or 2.5), away loss 0 (neutral venues has to be considered as home for one), while if a side declines to play series with someone else, their the points are awarded to the other team.

Possible maximum points that one team can get is 54; minimum -9. That's a swing of 63 points - may be we can set a bench mark that to keep Test status, one has to manage 25% of the possible max gap (16 points), otherwise they go down, with a qufifier that not more than 3 to go down, but all 10 can stay put, if they attain 16 points (possible - in total 270 points are on offer). Benchmark can be 33% as well (21 points), but we have to see at least one round to understand the minimum threshold. The cut off par should be declared at the start of 4/5 years cycle.

Similarly, if I take next 8 teams (say AFG, IRL, HOL, Scotland, KEN, Namibia, Canada & probably PNG) play similar 14 series with possible highest point being 42 - teams that can avail 75% of that possible max point (say 30) should get the Test status for next 4/5 years & it goes on.

This should keep both sides honest & there'll be an effort for lesser teams to improve their standard. At present, I don't think this freeloading is helping anyone, neither it'll help if there is 4 divisions with 3 each. That Big 3 was basically 3+6 formula with SAF floating in between & it was the worst idea in cricket to be honest.

considering all things, this seems to be the best and most practical solution for this mess, Plz forward it to ICC if you can with little more refining and detail.
 
That won't work on here because Pakistan is currently 6th. When Pak rise above 6, we'll be all for that system though :))).

only natural.

BD fans support the current 9-3 plan now but 3 years ago we'd have had a hissy fit since we were 10th behind Zimbabwe even.
 
The current top 3 (including Oz) will not go below 6, if they play enough tests over a cycle of 4 years. This hasn;t happened in like 20~30 years when WI were the kings of test cricket.

the question still stands

until about a decade ago, England would have been in the 2nd tier. How would the Ashes happen then?

Same can be said about India. 10-12 years ago, they weren't all that good, what happens if they fall to 2nd division. Even Pakistan, NZ for that matter
 
Top tier : INDIA, AUSTRALIA, SOUTH AFRICA, ENGLAND

Bottom Tier : PAK, BANGLA, SL, LANKA, WI, AFG, ZIM
 
the question still stands

until about a decade ago, England would have been in the 2nd tier. How would the Ashes happen then?

Same can be said about India. 10-12 years ago, they weren't all that good, what happens if they fall to 2nd division. Even Pakistan, NZ for that matter
Well that's the thing 'twas 15 years back, we weren't bad after 2001, that's a long time in sports. In that time SL is back to minnow level & WI is crap almost permanently. You won;t see the top 3 go to the bottom 8 anytime soon, not with home tests.
 
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No,don't think it will work.Teams depend on tours by India,if the split happens they would lose out on a lot of revenue.
 
Whilst I agree that a two tier system would be good for keeping standards up, there is one massive problem. If there are only 6 teams in the entire world good enough to be in the top tier, and they all keep playing each other all the time, soon you'll get bored of watching the same thing again and again. If you add to that the fact that two teams in the top 6, India and Pakistan, won't play one another at all, that then leaves even fewer possible combinations of top teams playing one another.

I think by far the better solution is a test championship - like the odi world cup. All teams compete, with the weaker ones dropping out as the championship progresses. That way you don't watch the same thing again and again, and you also solve the problem of ensuring that test cricket isn't boring because of a lack of competition.
 
Dont forget us.

OP question is irrelevant anyway, two divisions already exist now.

This is true tbh. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe get hardly any tests arranged with them at all. I'm sure it will be the same with Ireland and Afghanistan too.

Especially with test cricket, teams are reluctant to play teams which have a smaller fan base support/poorer and generates lower revenue. Tests last five days, so they want to make it as profitable as possible.

And the issue is countries like Zimbabwe, Ireland, Bangladesh can't just tour each other. They'll make little money. They need to play the bigger nations in order to sustain their test cricket and generate decent revenue.

Things will be changing for Bangladesh, having a much larger fan base and thus revenue than the other lower placed test teams, and the fact they've improved immensely. Part of the reason I was a bit against Ireland and Afghanistan's introduction to test cricket. They don't get to play much LOIs either, and that's rather unfair. I assume it will be even worse in regards to tests.
 
considering all things, this seems to be the best and most practical solution for this mess, Plz forward it to ICC if you can with little more refining and detail.

I am sure, people around ICC knows better than this regarding where they have taken cricket standards. Problem is, people pouring money (& making money) into or out of it, won't listen to these. They are more interested for air time than anything else. At the end of the day, people pays money to watch their stars, so it doesn't matter if IND or ENG is hammering these pathetic SRL or WI sides, so the air time is sold & with the expansion of media reach, money is multiplied. To sell their product, these media houses are paying big for lip services, who glorifies everything that's coming in air - even that AUS - WI Series in 2016!!!!!

This happens when you start to compromise on quality from vested interest - our Test status was awarded at least 10 years earlier for such a reason, so is AFGs & Irish now, and I am sure this is not the last. It's every where actually - now FIFA is trying to make WC with 48 teams, from 16, 24 to 32 - they might go to 96 teams until it's confirmed that China will make it every time.

T20 WC/status, I don't mind with 24 teams; ODI status/WC may be with 16 teams; but Test cricket should be limited to teams that deserves - be it even 6 or 7. It should be limited to countries that values Test cricket, there is a culture & infrastructure to support it, because the game is unique. It's quite easy to reach a certain level in T20 or ODI (in fact in most sports - South Korea lost 8-1 to PAK in 1985 Asia Cup, then they hired a Dutch coach & made Olympic Field Hockey SF in 1988); but Test cricket is unique in it's nature, duration, skill sets & mental aspects. Unless, there is a robust domestic FC set-up (or 4 innings match tournament, where you need to get 20 wickets to win and teams has a chance to fight out a come back from poor start, either way) one can't develop even a decent Test team.

The model I have suggested is just the final outcome - if one has to maintain their Test status, lots of ground work'll be required at domestic level.
 
Good idea, but also allow tier 2 teams to play tier 1 teams occasionally

Have 2 tiers of 6 teams. After 4 years, promote the highest ranked team from 2nd tier to 1st tier and the winner of Intercontinental cup to the 2nd tier
 
Good idea, but also allow tier 2 teams to play tier 1 teams occasionally

Have 2 tiers of 6 teams. After 4 years, promote the highest ranked team from 2nd tier to 1st tier and the winner of Intercontinental cup to the 2nd tier

That already happens though. The top tier generally play each other more frequently than the teams that would be in the lower tier.

Really the fairest way would be to have a championship and make it like football, everyone plays each other the same amounts of time one series at home, one away and at the end of that period, the winner is decided. Teams would probably not mind playing the weaker teams this way as it's easy points (as in football). This does not work however, as certain teams want to play each other more regularly than others. And this sort of model would lead to richer boards taking a pay cut. Not blaming anyone, cricket is partly a business and boards need to raise enough money to support their infastructure.

The two tier system really wouldn't affect Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Ireland etc. who already don't play much. It'd affect West Indies and Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka are going through a low point but still would beat most teams at home I bet except for India and maybe Pakistan. I don't think people should read to much into the whitewash, the sri lankan conditions are similar and India's a better team. Sri Lanka will have far greater home advantage against Australia for example. West Indies are an issue as they lose both home and away, but are close to giving up tests altogether, they play less and less tests I swear each year.
 
Only problem is that there is a fear among India, Australia and England regarding relegated to the lower division due to which their profits can take a massive hit, also just imagine England in Top tier and Australia in 2nd Tier, how can there be an Ashes series between the two?

Won't happen, a team like Aus can arrange enough home series they can whitewash easily to maintain their rankings
 
Instead of throwing that bottom 6 teams to the dogs, and risking a quicker death to test cricket, there's other things that can be done.

ICC investing in better first class cricket in countries like Pak, SL, WI etc is a dream but surely a better idea? ENG/IND/AUS actively participating in that couldn't hurt and may help.

Plenty of people here have great ideas, it's just that these negative solutions will only make for better viewing, but won't be great long term.
 
That already happens though. The top tier generally play each other more frequently than the teams that would be in the lower tier.

Wrong. India has just played 4-match Test series against WI. We even invited Bangla for a test match in India, for the first time and we are playing back-to-back series with SL. What you have said doesn't apply to BCCI, as they treat all teams equally.
 
Wrong. India has just played 4-match Test series against WI. We even invited Bangla for a test match in India, for the first time and we are playing back-to-back series with SL. What you have said doesn't apply to BCCI, as they treat all teams equally.

BCCI are probably the best out of the richer boards in terms of playing lower ranked countries. Probably because they are more able to extract a profit than others, and their fan base is much bigger than the rest. But even then pretty sure they play England and Aus more than other countries.

Let's look at India's last two captains. I've chosen captains as they're most likely to have played consistently without getting dropped
Kohli: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

Dhoni: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

For both, they've played the most number of matches, and second most matches against Australia and England . A bit surprised WI is actually so high, but I remember they're a board who have shortened test series in the past to include LOI. Might be the fact WI can be seen as an exciting team, therefore generates more interest despite their strength. Also touring WI itself holds more appeal, different conditions than the rest of the test nations IMO (partly due to the fact it's far away from everyone else) and is less out of the comfort zone of nations while not too near to be too similar to home (i.e. in the middle between Asian conditions and Sa/Eng/NZ/Aus conditions).

But still goes to show that certain teams play each other more than usual. For example look at Bangladesh, I get that Dhoni and Kohli may have been rested for some matches vs Bangladesh (and Zimbabwe), but I'm pretty sure India aren't playing them as much as England or Australia.

Similar if you look at other countries for example Clarke or Cook who both have the highest played matches against the three richest boards (India, England, Australia).

Not picking on any country or anything, but feel this is true. Look in contrast for Misbah: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/41378.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

Misbah's highest played country is Sri Lanka. Again Bangladesh and Zimbabwe lagging behind.

You can put that fault down to poorer boards worse run, less economically viable etc. I'm not blaming any country. I don't really care that we may play sri lanka more than anyone, they've been worthy opponents. But it's true there is a difference in terms of regularity of teams playing each other.
 
More than the divisional split a true test championship will do more for the game when every single test match carries value or atleast your preferred tests that count towards the championship and then the extra series/matches teams can play for other reasons.
 
The ongoing England vs West Indies and Bangladesh vs Australia Tests probably wouldn't be taking place if the teams were divided into two divisions... :13:
 
West Indies proving in Leeds that the 2 division theory may be flawed.
 
The ongoing England vs West Indies and Bangladesh vs Australia Tests probably wouldn't be taking place if the teams were divided into two divisions... :13:

But but but cricket purists think the same teams Should play each other so many times that they get bored
 
Eng-WI and Aus-BD series.

No division is needed.
 
Its high time for two tier system and neutral conditions to make test matches more competitive. Either matches are totally one sided and/or home side wins the series convincingly
 
West Indies proving in Leeds that the 2 division theory may be flawed.

This is an exception which also happens in World cups. If you look almost 90% of the matches with such sides are totally one sided
 
This is an exception which also happens in World cups. If you look almost 90% of the matches with such sides are totally one sided

On the other hand Australia lost 3 matches on the Trott to Lanka
 
Lol already very few nations play cricket and even fewer are interested in test cricket, make two divisions and see test cricket die a quick death
 
Only problem is that there is a fear among India, Australia and England regarding relegated to the lower division due to which their profits can take a massive hit, also just imagine England in Top tier and Australia in 2nd Tier, how can there be an Ashes series between the two?

According to the tier system they can still play each other but the points wont be counted so I think that was not the problem. The main problem was from the other countries as India, Eng and Aus are the main profitable tours for most teams if they don't tour for 4 year the other boards are done
 
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