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Muddaser
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Mercenary said:
i have a freind who used to live in Bombay during the times of the riots against muslims
he told me how the whole muslim community was scared to leave their houses and once around 8000 hindus came rioting into the muslim neighbourhood
there came 100 sikhs armed with swords who stood in front of the neighbourhood and vowed to protect the muslims
and he swore on his life that not one hindu made a move
kinda puts everything into perspective, doesn't it?
he told me how the whole muslim community was scared to leave their houses and once around 8000 hindus came rioting into the muslim neighbourhood
there came 100 sikhs armed with swords who stood in front of the neighbourhood and vowed to protect the muslims
and he swore on his life that not one hindu made a move
kinda puts everything into perspective, doesn't it?
Any Sardars please step forward & clarify this turban issue!
I've always believed that they won't cut their hair until they've 'avenged' their Gurus. I'd love to be proven wrong!
Until you come clean there's no point having any historical discussions because as long as that pug is on your head it's clear you don't like us very much!
I've always believed that they won't cut their hair until they've 'avenged' their Gurus. I'd love to be proven wrong!
Until you come clean there's no point having any historical discussions because as long as that pug is on your head it's clear you don't like us very much!
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Mercenary said:
oh purleees!
Were you there when he died? Stop talking out your backside merc
Muddaser
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z10 said:
Have you heard the 1 sikh versus 20,000 Pathans myth?
Aurangzeb said:
What about before Abraham?
Their were many Prophets before the covenant was established.
Many ancient religions may have had their basis in a revealed religion which was corrupted over time.
If Islam didnt tell us Xtianity was from Allah and we didnt share so many Prophets would we think them to be a revealed religion?
Especially in the light of Jesus being a Son of God, the trinity, etc.
Although I agree with you that post-Islam there is (for Muslims) no other revealed religion but that doesnt give us the right to ridicule anyone else's faith. In fact Allah(swt) instructs us not to ridicule anyone's religion in the Quran itself. So obey Him.
Somali Pirate
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Muddaser said:
if it's true then i have made a mistake.
ok Aurangzeb, explain why Sikhism is based on ethnicity? you didn't even know how it came to be and you said it was 'invented'! I said it before, I'll say it again, why make a fool ou of yourself when you have absolutely no idea of what ur talking about?
Mudasser, your right to an extent. During Aurangzeb's reign the basic mantra was that it's either the Muslim way or no way. So Sikhs got together and decided to fight...they went into the jungles and fought with all they had, loosing some, winning some, on occasion, famous battled headed by their general Guru Gobind Singh. It was to stop the Islamic injustice.
Mudasser, your right to an extent. During Aurangzeb's reign the basic mantra was that it's either the Muslim way or no way. So Sikhs got together and decided to fight...they went into the jungles and fought with all they had, loosing some, winning some, on occasion, famous battled headed by their general Guru Gobind Singh. It was to stop the Islamic injustice.
Some Sikhs were probably forced to accept Islam under Moghul rule but its silly to claim that all were!.Even today despite such bad press in the West Islam continues to grow.From my experience when this is mentioned to a non-Muslim he/she would say in the old days people were forcefully converted where as todays conversions don't don't prove Islam to be true!.I'm sick of this attitude of non-Muslims never giving credit to Islamic teachings and will only respect the others faith if they do mine be they Sikh,Hindu or whatever.
Tupac said:
I think that misconception comes from the fact that there are very few non-Indo/Pak Sikhs in the world.
It's not a religion which has grown except through reproduction and passing it on as a family inheritance as such. So people can often get the impression that its an exclusive club which I am aware that it's not!
Nakhuda said:
Forced conversions are wrong, full stop.
However once the pressure is off due to a change in government/policy, there is nothing preventing someone from deconverting. For people to stay with a religion for generations there has to be something more than force involved.
And you're right in that even when someone converts to Islam these days, its implied they were tricked into it or that they dont know what they are doing!
The reason for that is that the people saying these things have false preconceptions about Islam which they have never looked at objectively and so they cant rationalise why someone would join something which is so wrong (in their heads). So they refuse to give any credit to the doctrine and attribute it to social factors.
I'm yet to meet a convert (and i Know a lot) whom has not converted due to the beauty of Islamic teaching!
let me clarify here, there is nothing like they won't cut their hair because of the killings to the gurus....i hadn't even heard that till today, and I'm at the gurudwara playing tabla every other sunday! as for the killings I think they were avenged during the later parts of Aurangzeb rule...
having turbans and not cutting your hair was derived from Sikh soldiers that lived in the jungles those days. It's a sign of respect and uniqueness that Sikhs have, and this will not change due to the death of Muslims.
nakhuda..I never said everyone was forcible converting to Islam....but people can't deny that it did happen. So merc and muddasser, what do you say now?
having turbans and not cutting your hair was derived from Sikh soldiers that lived in the jungles those days. It's a sign of respect and uniqueness that Sikhs have, and this will not change due to the death of Muslims.
nakhuda..I never said everyone was forcible converting to Islam....but people can't deny that it did happen. So merc and muddasser, what do you say now?
Ayubi said:Yea well done...it's from a sikh website, what did I just say about bringing real historical evidence...
http://www.boloji.com/history/002.htm
anything left to say?
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Tupac said:
sikhism and punjabi go hand in hand...there's no diversity...doesn't take a genious to figure that out...but more than ethnicity, it seems their religion revolves around hatred for muslims...they're not allowed to eat "halal" meat...why? because muslims can...otherwise they can eat any other meat...and all this talk about mughal this mughal that...during those times hindus, muslims, and sikhs changed sides often...alliances shifted depending on who had power...one of aurangzeb's general's was a sikh...
Tupac said:
Tupac, Muslims believe in the Bible & Torah but we believe that Islam was the final revelation to mankind from God Almighty.
If we believed that Sikhism came from devine revelation then we would cease to be Muslims. So there's nothing offensive about it's just a matter of belief. Just like I wouldn't get offended if you said Islam was not the final revelation to mankind from God
Tupac, what of Khalistan. What became of the uprising and the separate state that many Sikhs wanted ?
A couple of my friends told me that many of the militant sikhs who were the main architects of the state of Khalistan were either imprisoned or murdered by the Indian govt ?
A couple of my friends told me that many of the militant sikhs who were the main architects of the state of Khalistan were either imprisoned or murdered by the Indian govt ?
http://www.sikhs.org/gloss2.htm
"Guru Gobind Singh dictated that Sikhs can eat jhatka meat of any animal but cannot eat Muslim Halal meat, where the animal has been slowly bled to death."
"Guru Gobind Singh dictated that Sikhs can eat jhatka meat of any animal but cannot eat Muslim Halal meat, where the animal has been slowly bled to death."
Tupac said:
That's a ridiculous write up which is factually incorrect & written by Hindu!
It doesn't even properly contextualise the whole issue of "jizya" in that it was a tax for non-Muslims only & meant that they didn't have to pay zakat neither were they forced to fight in wars as Muslims were. So the author of the article is either misinformed or insincere or (probably) both.
I'm not saying forced conversions didn't happen but the whole issue is exagerated & very subjective according to which side of the fence you're on.
A lot of historical articles about the 1857 mutiny describe how the Sikhs sold out to the English big time....I'll say it's a fact, you'll disagree, point is this type of discussion doesn't really prove anything
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Saj said:
Most of the militants were killed during the operation "bluestar". This was when the prime minister Indira Gandhi gave orders to the indian troops to storm into the golden temple and kill all the militants.
The Babar Khalsa is the group that wanted a separate state for sikhs and as usual the indian govt. accuses Pakistan of giving support to the babar khalsa group.
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Tupac said:
i have asikh friend , she wont eat halal meat , says its against her religion !
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Ayubi said:
they hav eno other choice !
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Aurangzeb said:inherently against her religion or islamic hatred?...let me guess...
says something to do with the way we cut it , ( slowly bleed it to death ) .. but i think it B.S.., if it was like that then the animal rights ppl would be on our ass all the time !
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from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:
See that's the problem. Sikhs would eat any other meat but would not eat meat which we think is halal. That shows the inner hatred that they have for the muslims.
Yes, pakistani punjabis and sikhs may have some similar culutural similarities but that's about it!
One of my sikh "friend" at uni believes it's okay to consume alcohol but wouldn't smoke a cigarette. When i asked him why, he said that it's against their religion to smoke. But then why i say it's against my religion to drink he makes a big issue out of it.
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Fawad said:
yeah...as if bleeding the animal from the jugular is more painful than electrocuting it...i refuse to believe its an ethical issue...if bleeding the animal from the jugular was painful for the animal we wouldn't be eating it either!...they can eat electrocuted animials but not halal meat...strange how that works...
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Ayubi said:
blacks in america are a total different story , they think they are free but they are still slaves, its a long discussion , i ma talk abt it sum otha time!!
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Aurangzeb said:
also its much more healthier to eat halal meat with all the blood already drained out !
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from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:Fawad said:
So then does your sikh friend drink?
My good friend once said that sikhs only lived for two things:
1) Drinking alcohol and getting ******!
2) And being oppressed by the hindus.
The sikhs fail to realise that the hindus in india do not give a f*** about them.
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Fawad said:from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:So then does your sikh friend drink?
My good friend once said that sikhs only lived for two things:
1) Drinking alcohol and getting ******!
2) And being oppressed by the hindus.
The sikhs fail to realise that the hindus in india do not give a f*** about them.
That is a bit unfair. Bit like the 'dont judge Islam by Muslims' principal.
From what I know true Sikhs can neither eat meat, drink nor smoke. And there are many who stick to that. Apparently the ones who wear the really floppy turbans are the most religious ones.
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Ayubi said:
from_da_lost_dim3nsion
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Fawad said:from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:So then does your sikh friend drink?
My good friend once said that sikhs only lived for two things:
1) Drinking alcohol and getting ******!
2) And being oppressed by the hindus.
The sikhs fail to realise that the hindus in india do not give a f*** about them.
she says that only the men drink in her family , not considered good if women are drinikn..
but she drinks ocasionally , but nobody is her family knows abt it !!
aurangzeb, fill me in on this...what exactly is halal meat and how is it halaled exactly. Guru Gobind, as in your quote, did say that he will not eat meat of the animal that's bled slowly to death....so he equates halal meat to the animal being killed slowly...which isn't necessarily true. Sikhs of today, follow this principle...so I wouldn't say it's muslim hatred...
Saj said:
Khalistan is still active...although it will never happen. My personal opinion? It's more political then anything....Sikhs were never oppressed...90% of them coexist and live peacefull with Hindus in India today...so they don't feel a need of Khalistan.
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I found some interesting quotes from the internet in which it clearly shows the indian govt. hates the sikhs:
To preserve the unity of India, if we have to eradicate 2-kror [ 20 millions ] Sikhs, we will do so. (Balram Jhakhar, a colleague of P.V. Narsimharao, the former Indian Prime Minister)
" The Sikhs are a lawless people and a menace to the law abiding Hindus ... The [Government] should take strict measures against them." (Pandit Nehru, Indian Prime Minister, on Sikhs)
"Kya main taqat dushman (the enemy -the Sikhs) ke haath main de dun (How can I entrust power into the hands of the enemies)." (Jawahar Lal Nehru, 1961)
" I hate the very physique of a Sikh because of the turban and beard. " (Vallabh Bhai Patel, late Indian top politician)
"I don't give a damn if the Golden Temple and whole of Amritsar are destroyed, I want Bhindranwale dead." (Indira Gandhi, Indian Prime Minister, communicating with Gen. Vaidya during "Operation Blue Star")
"We have broken the back of the Sikhs and we will get them elsewhere." (M. M. K. Wali, Indian Foreign Secretary, June 7, 1984, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Radio 740, As It Happens)
"Let us teach these *******s (the Sikhs) a lesson." (Rajiv Gandhi, October 31, 1984)
"... a threat to the villagers that all males would be killed and their women taken to army camps to breed a new race if there was any militant activity in their village." (Brig. R. P. Sinha, Indian Army, March 8, 1991)
"You do not know the might of our armed forces. We will eliminate 10,000 Sikh youths and the world will know nothing about it." (Chander Shekhar, former Prime Minister of India, CK, 21st October, 1991)
source:Why Khalistan?
To preserve the unity of India, if we have to eradicate 2-kror [ 20 millions ] Sikhs, we will do so. (Balram Jhakhar, a colleague of P.V. Narsimharao, the former Indian Prime Minister)
" The Sikhs are a lawless people and a menace to the law abiding Hindus ... The [Government] should take strict measures against them." (Pandit Nehru, Indian Prime Minister, on Sikhs)
"Kya main taqat dushman (the enemy -the Sikhs) ke haath main de dun (How can I entrust power into the hands of the enemies)." (Jawahar Lal Nehru, 1961)
" I hate the very physique of a Sikh because of the turban and beard. " (Vallabh Bhai Patel, late Indian top politician)
"I don't give a damn if the Golden Temple and whole of Amritsar are destroyed, I want Bhindranwale dead." (Indira Gandhi, Indian Prime Minister, communicating with Gen. Vaidya during "Operation Blue Star")
"We have broken the back of the Sikhs and we will get them elsewhere." (M. M. K. Wali, Indian Foreign Secretary, June 7, 1984, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Radio 740, As It Happens)
"Let us teach these *******s (the Sikhs) a lesson." (Rajiv Gandhi, October 31, 1984)
"... a threat to the villagers that all males would be killed and their women taken to army camps to breed a new race if there was any militant activity in their village." (Brig. R. P. Sinha, Indian Army, March 8, 1991)
"You do not know the might of our armed forces. We will eliminate 10,000 Sikh youths and the world will know nothing about it." (Chander Shekhar, former Prime Minister of India, CK, 21st October, 1991)
source:Why Khalistan?
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Tupac said:
)You go and talk to sikhs and ask them if they feel oppressed?
Ayubi said:
why does it matter if it's written by hindu or sikh? Are they always biased?
The issue of forced conversions..could be exaggerated, that's a possibility and I agree with that. But to say it never happened, as merc and mudasser, who's still conspicious by his absence...is not true. However it is probably very exaggerated, and I'll agree with you there for sure. You can't deny, however, the martrydom of Guru Tegh Bahadur and Aurangzeb's deeds during his reign
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so sikhs don't eat halal meat. i wonder if they eat kosher.Since kosher and halal methods are basically the same.
Tupac said:
an animal is made halal by bleeding it from its jugular plus some dua is read...it is an easy death for the animal...(for more of the religious folks have i explained it correctly?)...i'm not saying its entirely painless...but more so than other methods ie: electrocution which is widley practiced in the west...halal meat is also a healthier option as pointed out by ayubi...i have a hindu friend who's family eats halal meat because they say its cleaner...i also had this polish buddy who said the same...so to dismiss halal meat on the basis of ethics is erroneous...another question...can sikhs eat jewish kosher meat?...guru gobind didn't say anything about that...its cut the same way...so if you can eat kosher, why can't you eat halal? the association of halal meat with islam remains the only factor...
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Aurangzeb said:
good question , i ma her ask he that 2day !!
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from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:Fawad said:
Occasionally, my a$$. I bet she is the first one to enter the pub and the last one to leave it!
from_da_lost_dim3nsion
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Fawad said:from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:Occasionally, my a$$. I bet she is the first one to enter the pub and the last one to leave it!
nah 4 real tho , i kno her really well. she rearly drinks !
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from_da_lost_dim3nsion said:
You mean she's with you, at this time of night!
from_da_lost_dim3nsion
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Fawad said:You mean she's with you, at this time of night!
nah its 5: 30 evening here in houston ,
she not wid m e, i ma call her !!
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z10 said:
yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!
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when sacrificing an animal,the man/woman performing it should use a very sharp knife with no imperfections.
by cutting the jugular vein,the animal suddenly becomes unconscious as the flow of blood from the brain is interrupted.blood is poured out as blood is unclean and not needed.
the animal does not feel pain coz it's uncounscious.
by cutting the jugular vein,the animal suddenly becomes unconscious as the flow of blood from the brain is interrupted.blood is poured out as blood is unclean and not needed.
the animal does not feel pain coz it's uncounscious.
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Oh, so you live in US then. You Yank!
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z10 said:
aik khumar tha jo utar gaya
from_da_lost_dim3nsion
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Fawad said:Oh, so you live in US then. You Yank!
howdy !!
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z10 said:
a shame, but i guess it means you're preoccupied now
yea , u can say that
aurangzeb...I'm not sure...as far as I know Guru Gobindji only said that they were forbidden from eating meat that was slowly bled to death and tortured, so if koscher falls into that, then they aren't..
most Sikhs I know just eat the meat period. I don't think Waheguru minds...as long as the most important part of the religion is oberved, eating meat is a non factor compared to that
most Sikhs I know just eat the meat period. I don't think Waheguru minds...as long as the most important part of the religion is oberved, eating meat is a non factor compared to that
Well Tupac certain Sikhs may have been forcefully converted to Islam by ignorant Moghuls but they themselves had little knowledge of Islam which is the simple point i'm making to you.You're certainly entitled to an opinion but i think its fair to say that unlike the Arabic language in which the Holy Qur'an was revealed the Punjabi of the Guru Granth Sahib is not a civilizational language.As far as the Khalistan movement is concerned i couldn't really care less about it.
Tupac said:
Ok not inequivocally but more often than not & just reading the first few lines of that article it's clear how biased the author is.
Look martyrdom is a subjective notion & has different connotations depending on your belief. If a Muslim in Kashmir blows themself up trying to kill Indian soldiers he's either looked upon as a martyr trying to liberate his people from occupiers, or a cold blooded terrorist/murderer. Depends on which side of the fence you sit on
Can you deny how the Sikhs sold out to the British army against the Hindus & Muslims in the 1857 mutiny?
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THERE ARE TWO CAMPS THE MUSLIMS AND THE KAFFIR
Sikhs are kaffir or disbelivers....
One way or the other why should we give a hoot about them.
Sikhs are kaffir or disbelivers....
One way or the other why should we give a hoot about them.
thanks for coming out hussain...your quite a rep for your religion
Ayubi...I have no knowledge of 1857 whatsoever..so can't make a comment...but what's the relevance here? By Guru Tegh Bahadurji's killing, i'm pointing out there were instances of trying to convert people to islam...of course it doesn't mean it happened ALL the time...that's all. That part is not subjective. And forcible converting has no fence, it's wrong either way. Martrydom maybe...not conversion by forcible means
Ayubi...I have no knowledge of 1857 whatsoever..so can't make a comment...but what's the relevance here? By Guru Tegh Bahadurji's killing, i'm pointing out there were instances of trying to convert people to islam...of course it doesn't mean it happened ALL the time...that's all. That part is not subjective. And forcible converting has no fence, it's wrong either way. Martrydom maybe...not conversion by forcible means
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Whats the problem, as muslims we belive in the one true will of God.
Everything else is a perversion for us and unacceptable.
we give a special place for christians and jews and thats ONLY because of the message [which has been now corrupted] which was given by the prophets Moses and Jesus peace be upon them.
RESPECT is one thing, but belief that hindu's and sikhs and the rest of them have valid belief systems is are notions which should not be entertained.
Islam is a way of life, the only valid way of life we have to stick up with for our beliefs,
Have respect by all means, but at the end of the day they are still disbelivers are they not, we cant change the fact that they are kaffir,.
Everything else is a perversion for us and unacceptable.
we give a special place for christians and jews and thats ONLY because of the message [which has been now corrupted] which was given by the prophets Moses and Jesus peace be upon them.
RESPECT is one thing, but belief that hindu's and sikhs and the rest of them have valid belief systems is are notions which should not be entertained.
Islam is a way of life, the only valid way of life we have to stick up with for our beliefs,
Have respect by all means, but at the end of the day they are still disbelivers are they not, we cant change the fact that they are kaffir,.
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