South Africa and its tale of World Cup chokes!

[jnaveen1980]

I think South africa has to improve their batting depth. In 2022 world T20 they were chasing a modest 153 against Netherlands to qualify for the semi final. Their no.8 batsman was Wayne Parnell. With a reasonably long tail they played with circumspection and went nowhere throughout the chase. Dibbly dobbly seamers choked them. This time they did not allow it and tried to keep ahead of the run rate. They did successfully. Could have c hoked while doing that. THey were dominating in the period between 11th and 15th over where India fed spinners to them and lost the game. But seamers put the squeeze on much like they put the squeeze on in hte Ned game. Surprisingly SA batting is poor against seam in these tense games.

 

[Savak]

South Africa? What about Pakistan and the present over rated bowlers of Shaheen, Hasan Ali, Rauf, Shadab

- Pakistan vs Australia Semi Final 2021 T20 WC

Australia were 96/5 in 12 overs but they allowed Wade, Stoinis to chase down 178 with one over to spare. Shaheen conceded 3 sixes in the 19th over and Hasan Ali dropped a simple catch before Wade hit the three sixes. In contrast Bhumra has defended impossible run a ball situations for India and his Franchise many times and look at the catch Surya took under pressure in a WC final

- Pakistan vs India T20 WC 2022

- Pakistani bowling attack of Shaheen, Naseem, Rauf, Shadab not only allows India to recover from 32/4 to chase 160 on a spicy pacy bouncy pitch but Kohli single handedly score 48 of the last 18 deliveries

The Pakistani Cricket system and structure is just not putting pressure on the players to improve and grow. I cannot think of a single Pakistani player in the present team who has been playing for the last 5-7 years consistently who I can look and say wow he is a massively improved player, he has taken his game to the next level, in fact the players actually end up becoming even worse and regress. I'm comparison the Indian Cricket Team and system is much more brutal where players are pushed to improve, grow, perform or get dropped for someone else on the bench, no one gets a lengthy free ride on past performances for very long unless they have Tendulkars or Kohlis stature but sadly in Pakistan the entire squad of 11 or 15 gets a lengthy free ride.

 

[Kianig89]

The strategy of playing 5 specialists worked for SA in round games but in the final it proved to be a blunder , T20 needs a perfectly balanced team and atleast 2 players with 70% all round abilities.

Nonetheless SA squandered a golden opportunity, 30 from 30 with 6 wickets should be doable 99 out of 100 times

 

[GLORY OF '92]

The strategy of playing 5 specialists worked for SA in round games but in the final it proved to be a blunder , T20 needs a perfectly balanced team and atleast 2 players with 70% all round abilities.

Nonetheless SA squandered a golden opportunity, 30 from 30 with 6 wickets should be doable 99 out of 100 times

The scarring on these players means another 10 years I reckon before they reach an ICC final again.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

South Africa? What about Pakistan and the present over rated bowlers of Shaheen, Hasan Ali, Rauf, Shadab

- Pakistan vs Australia Semi Final 2021 T20 WC

Australia were 96/5 in 12 overs but they allowed Wade, Stoinis to chase down 178 with one over to spare. Shaheen conceded 3 sixes in the 19th over and Hasan Ali dropped a simple catch before Wade hit the three sixes. In contrast Bhumra has defended impossible run a ball situations for India and his Franchise many times and look at the catch Surya took under pressure in a WC final

- Pakistan vs India T20 WC 2022

- Pakistani bowling attack of Shaheen, Naseem, Rauf, Shadab not only allows India to recover from 32/4 to chase 160 on a spicy pacy bouncy pitch but Kohli single handedly score 48 of the last 18 deliveries

The Pakistani Cricket system and structure is just not putting pressure on the players to improve and grow. I cannot think of a single Pakistani player in the present team who has been playing for the last 5-7 years consistently who I can look and say wow he is a massively improved player, he has taken his game to the next level, in fact the players actually end up becoming even worse and regress. I'm comparison the Indian Cricket Team and system is much more brutal where players are pushed to improve, grow, perform or get dropped for someone else on the bench, no one gets a lengthy free ride on past performances for very long unless they have Tendulkars or Kohlis stature but sadly in Pakistan the entire squad of 11 or 15 gets a lengthy free ride.

I think the point is very clearly that South Africa have never won an ICC trophy despite always being a great side whereas Pakistan has despite being anything but great for atleast the last 20 years.

 

[nish_mate]

I think the point is very clearly that South Africa have never won an ICC trophy despite always being a great side whereas Pakistan has despite being anything but great for atleast the last 20 years.

Didnt SA win a CT at some point?

 

[Statpadder Inc]

Didnt SA win a CT at some point?

Yup, in 98

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think South africa has to improve their batting depth. In 2022 world T20 they were chasing a modest 153 against Netherlands to qualify for the semi final. Their no.8 batsman was Wayne Parnell. With a reasonably long tail they played with circumspection and went nowhere throughout the chase. Dibbly dobbly seamers choked them. This time they did not allow it and tried to keep ahead of the run rate. They did successfully. Could have c hoked while doing that. THey were dominating in the period between 11th and 15th over where India fed spinners to them and lost the game. But seamers put the squeeze on much like they put the squeeze on in hte Ned game. Surprisingly SA batting is poor against seam in these tense games.

No I think they just suck. There is no batting line-up in world cricket that is as destructive on paper. And they still couldn't get the job done after dominating most of the innings. I mean the game was over for all intents and purposes. This was even worse to see than Pakistan's performance against India. Because Klaasen was smashing the spinners for fun just one over prior.

And de Kock and Miller need to retire. They have been the faces of failure for far too long. The way de Kock threw his wicket away in the final was embarrassing to see from a player of his caliber. Even a 5 year old wouldn't have fallen for something that obvious.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Didnt SA win a CT at some point?

If you count that joke of a tournament known as the Knockout Cup. Personally, I don't.

 

[nish_mate]

If you count that joke of a tournament known as the Knockout Cup. Personally, I don't.

ICC trophy's a trophy, otherwise Pakistan hasnt won anything since 2009. Fair enough if you dont, I reckon CT is a good one to have in one's cupboard, no associates, no minnows (barring BD) to bash.

 

[sweep_shot]

If you count that joke of a tournament known as the Knockout Cup. Personally, I don't.

Knockout Cup is the Champions Trophy. They renamed it.

1998 CT was actually quite competitive. All sides played their main players. Check the scorecards. There wasn't any minnow too.

 

[sweep_shot]

ICC trophy's a trophy, otherwise Pakistan hasnt won anything since 2009. Fair enough if you dont, I reckon CT is a good one to have in one's cupboard, no associates, no minnows (barring BD) to bash.

BD may get bashed in the upcoming CT but they didn't get bashed last time. BD reached semi-final of 2017 CT.

You are right that CT is generally good in quality (even though I think it should be scrapped).

 

[Kianig89]

The mental part of this final defeat will take some effort to overcome , players will be distraught and agonised it will take alot of conjuring to put them back in normal mode

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Knockout Cup is the Champions Trophy. They renamed it.

1998 CT was actually quite competitive. All sides played their main players. Check the scorecards. There wasn't any minnow too.

I know but that format was a joke. Literally any team could have won it. For me the CT begins from 2002.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

ICC trophy's a trophy, otherwise Pakistan hasnt won anything since 2009. Fair enough if you dont, I reckon CT is a good one to have in one's cupboard, no associates, no minnows (barring BD) to bash.

I don't have any problem with the CT. But the ICC Knockout Cups were two joke tournaments that I don't count. For me, the CT begins from 2002.

 

[sweep_shot]

I know but that format was a joke. Literally any team could have won it. For me the CT begins from 2002.

It was a knockout tournament. I saw it live. It was pretty good quality because all teams were heavyweights.

There were games like:

India vs Australia
Pakistan vs West Indies
South Africa vs Sri Lanka
India vs West Indies
West Indies vs South Africa
Sri Lanka vs New Zealand

 

[jnaveen1980]

I don't have any problem with the CT. But the ICC Knockout Cups were two joke tournaments that I don't count. For me, the CT begins from 2002.

Yea.. never had the hype or glitz. Wasn't covered as well as world cup. I don't think i have watched any CT other than 2013 and 2017. Just watched highlights of a few CTs. It was a side show always. CT2017 had the hype because of INdia/Pakistan final. Otherwise as an event it never had significance.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It was a knockout tournament. I saw it live. It was pretty good quality because all teams were heavyweights.

There were games like:

India vs Australia
Pakistan vs West Indies
South Africa vs Sri Lanka
India vs West Indies
West Indies vs South Africa
Sri Lanka vs New Zealand

Good for you. But for me it was a dumb idea and a failed experiment. Any tournament that sees teams getting eliminated after one match cannot be taken seriously. Because it does not offer a comprehensive showcase of skills and competitiveness. It's not about the best team winning. It all about luck. You may be the best team but get eliminated after having one bad day.

This kind of format only works for sports where there are individual players. It's much more marketable and logical. In team sports it makes absolutely zero sense without a preliminary group stage.

 

[sweep_shot]

Good for you. But for me it was a dumb idea and a failed experiment. Any tournament that sees teams getting eliminated after one match cannot be taken seriously. Because it does not offer a comprehensive showcase of skills and competitiveness. It's not about the best team winning. It all about luck. You may be the best team but get eliminated after having one bad day.

This kind of format only works for sports where there are individual players. It's much more marketable and logical. In team sports it makes absolutely zero sense without a preliminary group stage.

That's how all major sports operate. FIFA World Cup also has knockouts.

Knockout format for a major event makes more sense. It shows which team is the best when pressure is on.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That's how all major sports operate. No? Big events generally follow knockout formats. FIFA World Cup also has knockouts.

After a group stage. Without a proper group stage that knockout stage means nothing. Because the group stage ensures a competitive balance and minimizes the impact of randomness. Upsets mean something but they are not the be all or end all. Some of the greatest sporting comebacks have happened after shocking defeats. I'm sure you saw the last football WC. Any team sport tournament that ignores that cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Mesozoic]

I wonder if this is an even bigger choke than the 1999 one with Donald and Klusener. That was still a semi final and all said and done they were just one wicket away from losing the game when the choke moment happened.

But here it was a final and they were within touching distance of the trophy and were cruising to a comfortable win with 6 wickets in hand. Got to be agonizing..

 

[Cricket Warrior]

1 step closer in the choking industry for SA... now they are choking at even bigger stage.... Massive improvement lol

 

[jnaveen1980]

World T20 comes every 2 years. THey have plenty of opportunities ahead to win it. Lot of teams will be in transition phase. They will win one soon.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Yea.. never had the hype or glitz. Wasn't covered as well as world cup. I don't think i have watched any CT other than 2013 and 2017. Just watched highlights of a few CTs. It was a side show always. CT2017 had the hype because of INdia/Pakistan final. Otherwise as an event it never had significance.

I think they could have maintained its prestige if they were just a little damn consistent about what this tournament actually was. It should always have been an 8 team tournament. But I don't think that happened till 2009 or something. On top of that, the idiotic idea to make the WC a 10 team tournament kinda made it a bit redundant. It was like WC lite at that point. But obviously ICC see alot of money in it and the potential of another India v Pakistan match, so ofcourse they were going to bring it back. T20 WCs are nice but you can't have them every year now can you? This allows them to have an ICC tournament every year going forward.

It's an ICC trophy but let's be real: its still World Cup lite. Winning it is not the same as winning the WC or even the T20 WC.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I wonder if this is an even bigger choke than the 1999 one with Donald and Klusener. That was still a semi final and all said and done they were just one wicket away from losing the game when the choke moment happened.

But here it was a final and they were within touching distance of the trophy and were cruising to a comfortable win with 6 wickets in hand. Got to be agonizing..

Nah that was still bigger. All they needed was 1 run. And it wasn't even the last ball of the innings.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

World T20 comes every 2 years. THey have plenty of opportunities ahead to win it. Lot of teams will be in transition phase. They will win one soon.

No they won't.

Pakistan Australia and NZ won't be that poor as this time.

I expect this to be SAs last final for a long time.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I wonder if this is an even bigger choke than the 1999 one with Donald and Klusener. That was still a semi final and all said and done they were just one wicket away from losing the game when the choke moment happened.

But here it was a final and they were within touching distance of the trophy and were cruising to a comfortable win with 6 wickets in hand. Got to be agonizing..

The 1999 choke has so many layers that it will always be the OG South African knockout performance. From South Africa restricting Australia to a chaseable total and cruising in the chase at to losing 4 for 23 and looking done and dusted until Klusener brought them back from the brink. From 16 off 8 (for the last wicket), he brought the score to 9 off 6 and then cracked the first two balls of the final over by Damien Fleming for fours. It was 1 off 4. There was no need to rush it. Immediately Donald almost ran Klusener out the next ball. Which should have been a wake-up call right then and there. But alas it wasn't and we all know what happened after that.

 

[sweep_shot]

No they won't.

Pakistan Australia and NZ won't be that poor as this time.

I expect this to be SAs last final for a long time.

You are probably right.

If Aussies didn't lose to Afghans, it would've been Australia vs South Africa. Aussies probably would've won both semi-final and final.

I also think it is possibly the last final for South Africa for a while. NZ and Australia generally do not get eliminated like that.

 

[rhony]

No they won't.

Pakistan Australia and NZ won't be that poor as this time.

I expect this to be SAs last final for a long time.

Warner, Starc, Maxwell won't play another world cup I think. They are or will be 35+ by next world cup. I don't see Aussies playing a huge role while they are rebuilding. NZ will.also lose Kane, Bolt. Pak team isn't steady. Most South African players are also relatively old. DeKock probably played his last game. However, they coukd.retain their core for one more cycle. They will be a SF team for sure

 

[jnaveen1980]

Based on interaction with SA fans they had butterfly in their stomach as soon as Klassen was out. They didn't trust their tail with 12 balls from Bumrah to come. It is a huge gamble to go with 5 specialist bowlers. It puts huge pressure on your partner as well. Once Jansen was out they had this sinking feeling.

 

[BDfanforever]

What happened to that guy Dwayne Pretorius? Also, why didn't they try that Berger guy in any of the match?

 

[sweep_shot]

What happened to that guy Dwayne Pretorius? Also, why didn't they try that Berger guy in any of the match?

I believe Pretorius retired from international cricket. He wants to focus on franchise T20.

 

[Buffet]

No they won't.

Pakistan Australia and NZ won't be that poor as this time.

I expect this to be SAs last final for a long time.

NZ has played only one final in entire hisotry of T20 WC.

 

[sweep_shot]

NZ has played only one final in entire hisotry of T20 WC.

They often reach semis though.

Four semi-finalists are usually from these 6 teams --> England, India, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, and Pakistan.

 

[globetrotter]

India set target 177 for SA in final. Considering the past record of SA and India thumping win over England in Semis, I thought India will win easily. But SA batters proved me wrong, they batted brilliantly. At one stage, they required 26 runs in 28 balls. However Indian team snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. This South African team shown to the world they are no more chokers.

Hope one day South Africa will win World Cup … probably beating Pakistan in the final

 

[JaDed]

You are probably right.

If Aussies didn't lose to Afghans, it would've been Australia vs South Africa. Aussies probably would've won both semi-final and final.

I also think it is possibly the last final for South Africa for a while. NZ and Australia generally do not get eliminated like that.

Probably would had ? On what basis lol, they lost to India and Afghans.
Do you say India probably would had beaten Pakistan in the final?

 

[sweep_shot]

Probably would had ? On what basis lol, they lost to India and Afghans.
Do you say India probably would had beaten Pakistan in the final?

Since we do not know the future, it is better to say "probably".

 

[JaDed]

Since we do not know the future, it is better to say "probably".

If you don’t know the future how does their probability increase?

 

[sweep_shot]

If you don’t know the future how does their probability increase?

Probability doesn't have to increase. It is just to point out the likelihood.

You are making it complex for no reason.

 

[JaDed]

Probability doesn't have to increase. It is just to point out the likelihood.

You are making it complex for no reason.

I’m not making it complex Im asking on what basis would Aus beat India in final?

 

[sweep_shot]

I’m not making it complex Im asking on what basis would Aus beat India in final?

Same way they beat India in 2023 WC final.

What kind of question is this? Is Australia some gully team? They are the 8-time World champions.

 

[JaDed]

Same way they beat India in 2023 WC final.

What kind of question is this? Is Australia some gully team? They are the 8-time World champions.

Is this the same format? What makes you think they will beat India in T20 final? When they lost to Ind and Afghans?
How many times has India won against Aus in T20 wc KO? Do you know

 

[sweep_shot]

Is this the same format? What makes you think they will beat India in T20 final? When they lost to Ind and Afghans?
How many times has India won against Aus in T20 wc KO? Do you know

Aussies are master at winning finals. Doesn't matter what the format is. Doesn't matter who the opponent is or what the venue is.

 

[Dhakar Pola]

I feel sad for SA and NZ. It's a crime that they have the same number of world cups as us. SA might have the same number of world cups as us in next 50 years which is absurd

 

[Bhaijaan]

Some commentators refused to call it a choke out of respect or pity but it really was a massive choke.

After Klassen destroyed Akshar and brought it down to a run a ball with 5 overs remaining, they should have continued to attack. I understand being cautious against Bumrah but sparing Pandya and Arshdeep was a mistake.

The World Cup was there for the taking and they let it slip past them once again.

 

[globetrotter]

I feel sad for SA and NZ. It's a crime that they have the same number of world cups as us. SA might have the same number of world cups as us in next 50 years which is absurd

U want give the WC to them as complimentary… all team participated in WC worked hard to win it

 

[Dhakar Pola]

U want give the WC to them as complimentary… all team participated in WC worked hard to win it

Umm yes..and where did I say give them world cup as gifts?

 

[JaDed]

Aussies are master at winning finals. Doesn't matter what the format is. Doesn't matter who the opponent is or what the venue is.

Lol they have lost multiple finals. in T20 itself they lost 2010 in England ,
In 2007 India knocked them out in semis.

 

[sweep_shot]

Lol they have lost multiple finals. in T20 itself they lost 2010 in England ,
In 2007 India knocked them out in semis.

2007 World T20 one wasn't a final. Why are you trying to pass off a semi-final as a final? Don't shift the goal post.

Here are Aussie records in finals:

1975 WC final - Lost
1987 WC final - won
1996 WC final - lost
1999 WC final - won
2003 WC final - won
2007 WC final - won
2010 WC final - lost
2015 WC final - won
2021 WC final - won
2023 WTC final - won
2023 WC final won

That's an 8-3 record.

 

[Dhakar Pola]

2007 World T20 one wasn't a final. Why are you trying to pass off a semi-final as a final? Don't shift the goal post.

Here are Aussie records in finals:

1975 WC final - Lost
1987 WC final - won
1996 WC final - lost
1999 WC final - won
2003 WC final - won
2007 WC final - won
2010 WC final - lost
2015 WC final - won
2021 WC final - won
2023 WTC final - won
2023 WC final won

That's an 8-3 record.

since 1999 only one final lost, thats insane

 

[globetrotter]

Umm yes..and where did I say give them world cup as gifts?

U said it’s a crime that they have same number of WC as us…. So what ? SA may played many WC’s but they choked at crucial times… now in this WC, they shown they are not chokers…

 

[JaDed]

2007 World T20 one wasn't a final. Why are you trying to pass off a semi-final as a final? Don't shift the goal post.

Here are Aussie records in finals:

1975 WC final - Lost
1987 WC final - won
1996 WC final - lost
1999 WC final - won
2003 WC final - won
2007 WC final - won
2010 WC final - lost
2015 WC final - won
2021 WC final - won
2023 WTC final - won
2023 WC final won

That's an 8-3 record.

In your logic WI would had defeated everyone because they have only lost one final?
So are you saying if India had rchd 2022 final we would had probably defeated Pakistan? Again your logic..
Because you are discussing probables lets discuss 2022 probability then.

 

[Dhakar Pola]

U said it’s a crime that they have same number of WC as us…. So what ? SA may played many WC’s but they choked at crucial times… now in this WC, they shown they are not chokers…

I said its a crime that SA have the same number of world cup as us(I am a Bangladeshi), I think you have mistaken me for a Pakistani. In terms of strength and cricket power my team is thousands of miles behind SA so in my view its criminal, criminal in a sense that its criminally unfortunate.

I hope I cleared your miscommunication

 

[Ab Fan]

The problem with SA is that their batters have strong attacking game and they thrive on momentum which is why they choke when it is down to these final overs.

Jansen is an amazing striker of the ball and is no lesser a bat than say, Pat Cummins but put Cummins in that position and Australia might just have won the game from that position. That's why reading the game situation and awareness is just so key for winning matches.

 

[Dhakar Pola]

The problem with SA is that their batters have strong attacking game and they thrive on momentum which is why they choke when it is down to these final overs.

Jansen is an amazing striker of the ball and is no lesser a bat than say, Pat Cummins but put Cummins in that position and Australia might just have won the game from that position. That's why reading the game situation and awareness is just so key for winning matches.

I think SA just need one world cup win to get out of this mindset of choke. its unfortunate it did not happen this world cup, if it happen i think we might have seen a different beast in the coming world cups

 

[globetrotter]

I said its a crime that SA have the same number of world cup as us(I am a Bangladeshi), I think you have mistaken me for a Pakistani. In terms of strength and cricket power my team is thousands of miles behind SA so in my view its criminal, criminal in a sense that its criminally unfortunately
I hope I cleared your miscommunication

Ok… number of b
Players in Bangladesh team playing since last many years, but why they r not excelling their performance? Where is going wrong for Bangladesh

 

[Dhakar Pola]

Ok… number of b
Players in Bangladesh team playing since last many years, but why they r not excelling their performance? Where is going wrong for Bangladesh

Many reasons, fault lies with board and the players and to us fans to some extent as well. we need a major root cause analysis and fix the issues based on that but with our current board its not going to happen

 

[FearlessRoar]

Let's just stick to the discussion of South Africa cricket.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

World T20 comes every 2 years. THey have plenty of opportunities ahead to win it. Lot of teams will be in transition phase. They will win one soon.

They will never get this chance again. It was an ultimate choking masterclass shown by them when they only needed 29 off 29 deliveries.

 

[jnaveen1980]

They will never get this chance again. It was an ultimate choking masterclass shown by them when they only needed 29 off 29 deliveries.

They have never made the final until now. So this is the first step. Yes they got easy way into final by meeting Afghanistan in the semi final. Also won 5 games they could have potentially lost. Finally their luck ran out. They have to restrucutre their line up.

 

[BDfanforever]

RSA is Belgium of Football. Highly talented individual players whom just doesn't click consistently as a team to win major tournament.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Shoud have won this time. It was a perfect moment for them to win it but once again, that choker mentality prevailed.

 

[KP From India]

You need a tall batting order to win hig games. SA probably has the longest tail among big teams. Teams get into these lower order with 20 to.30 runs remaining and they typically falter. SA needs those all rounders as they did in the 90s

Tall batting order is often not required in T20 where teams rarely get all out. It's required in tests sometimes in ODIs. Even someone like Bhajji or Srinath will get you 15(8) type of innings more often. Zaheer also can score 10-12 runs. These saffer lower order is at least at par with those guys.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Too much negativity about RSA. For me, the only issue with this team is it's batting depth or lack thereof. Jansen should be coming in at #8, if he plays at all.

They can't afford to play 4 pure bowlers.

Otherwise, Saffers are well on track. Their white ball sides have not been this impressive in more than a decade for mine.

 

[BDfanforever]

This came up in my recommendation. Anyone remember WC2007 match between SRI Lanka vs RSA where RSA needed like only 5 or 6 runs with 5 wickets in hand then Malinga took like 4 straight wickets LOL?

 

[sweep_shot]

This came up in my recommendation. Anyone remember WC2007 match between SRI Lanka vs RSA where RSA needed like only 5 or 6 runs with 5 wickets in hand then Malinga took like 4 straight wickets LOL?

I remember it. 4 wickets in 4 balls.

South Africa barely escaped with a win. Won by 1 wicket.