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South Africa will remain a force!

Nothing, serial chokers weak mentality, on par with PAK, people love over rating them because of ABD , need to take off the nostalgia tainted glasses.

Pakistan in international tournaments is a much better team than South Africa. Even our worst ever World Cup team managed to beat a top quality South African side at the 2015 World Cup. And now they have neither that fearsome pace attack, nor that formidable batting line-up.
 
They haven't won sh*t away from home though. Phainta vs Aussies. Phainta vs saffers. Phainta vs India if they travel.

LOL. If anything it was India that got a mauling and a reality check when they last played New Zealand in a series Yes, New Zealand was terrible when they last toured India in 2016 but so is almost every other team that tours India.

New Zealand have been dominant at home. And also managed a series win in UAE and a draw in Sri Lanka. Granted, both teams are mediocre in this format, but winning in UAE and drawing in Lanka are big achievements for non-Asian teams. Look at other SENA teams performances there. Australia have lost twice in UAE, and been whitewashed in Lanka. South Africa got an even worse thrashing in Sri Lanka last time they were there, also whitewashed. England had success in Lanka but lost both series they played in UAE comprehensively.

Also, New Zealand hasn't toured South Africa for a test series in 7 years. Against Australia they somehow always lose. It's some kind of mental block. Doesn't even matter where they are playing.
 
But, people are underrating SAF even more, though they are still an excellent team - just that they don’t play that many soft games. Here in PP, I have read comments like “... apart from Rabada & Kock, none from this SAF will make Pakistan’s C team...” sort of staff, and PP is still trying to level them in lower tier, diluting with others. They beat Australia in an ODI series few months back and let them play against PAK, SRL, WIN, BD, AFG & ZIM in plenty .... SAF will crash them most times - Test, ODI or T20.

Some people here tend to go overboard. For one thing, South Africa is always a cut above Pakistan because unlike Pakistan the professionalism and discipline in their game never goes away, which is most evident in the fielding. That said, is there really that much of a gulf between South Africa and Pakistan now? I mean look at the rankings. Pakistan is only 5 points behind South Africa in both Tests and ODIs. And this is keeping in mind that Pakistan is usually terrible in bilateral ODIs against higher ranked teams, against whom they almost always lose.

Also, South Africa in international tournaments remains a travesty. And we all know that in limited-overs cricket, international tournaments are the real litmus test of how good a side is. Their last World Cup campaign in particular showed that cracks were emerging in their side. Usually they would play well and then choke in the knockouts. But this time they were comprehensively beaten on regular occasions, including twice by lower ranked teams: Bangladesh and Pakistan.
 
Some people here tend to go overboard. For one thing, South Africa is always a cut above Pakistan because unlike Pakistan the professionalism and discipline in their game never goes away, which is most evident in the fielding. That said, is there really that much of a gulf between South Africa and Pakistan now? I mean look at the rankings. Pakistan is only 5 points behind South Africa in both Tests and ODIs. And this is keeping in mind that Pakistan is usually terrible in bilateral ODIs against higher ranked teams, against whom they almost always lose.

Also, South Africa in international tournaments remains a travesty. And we all know that in limited-overs cricket, international tournaments are the real litmus test of how good a side is. Their last World Cup campaign in particular showed that cracks were emerging in their side. Usually they would play well and then choke in the knockouts. But this time they were comprehensively beaten on regular occasions, including twice by lower ranked teams: Bangladesh and Pakistan.

The gap between the two sides is still significant. South Africa would most probably lose a Test series in Pakistan, but there is a better chance of South Africa stealing a result in Pakistan compared to Pakistan beating South Africa in South Africa.

Same goes for Limited Overs. Pakistan have done better in one-off tournament games but over the course of a series, you would still back south Africa to overcome Pakistan home and away.
 
The gap between the two sides is still significant. South Africa would most probably lose a Test series in Pakistan, but there is a better chance of South Africa stealing a result in Pakistan compared to Pakistan beating South Africa in South Africa.

Same goes for Limited Overs. Pakistan have done better in one-off tournament games but over the course of a series, you would still back south Africa to overcome Pakistan home and away.

I don't see how one team is better than the other if both can beat each other on their home turf. South Africa will be touring Pakistan soon so we'll see if they can steal that one result or not.

In ODIs, you could make the case that South Africa is better but like I said, bilateral ODI wins mean nothing of you don't show up in international tournaments.
 
The gap between the two sides is still significant. South Africa would most probably lose a Test series in Pakistan, but there is a better chance of South Africa stealing a result in Pakistan compared to Pakistan beating South Africa in South Africa.

Same goes for Limited Overs. Pakistan have done better in one-off tournament games but over the course of a series, you would still back south Africa to overcome Pakistan home and away.

Pak would beat SA in Pak , SA would probably beat Pak in SA but going by how things are going at the moment i wouldn't be so confident of SA turning PAK over so easily.

When i comes to neutral venues PAK are better at the moment as per records in ICC tournaments and in my opinion would start as favourites at this moment in time. Both are very similar i agree the only difference is one is ore professional then the other.
 
I don't see how one team is better than the other if both can beat each other on their home turf. South Africa will be touring Pakistan soon so we'll see if they can steal that one result or not.

In ODIs, you could make the case that South Africa is better but like I said, bilateral ODI wins mean nothing of you don't show up in international tournaments.

In Tests, South Africa is more likely to beat Pakistan away than vice-versa. In Limited Overs cricket, South Africa will be favorites everywhere.

Yes Pakistan is a better tournament team but then anyone is better than South Africa in that department. It doesn’t make Pakistan any special and doesn’t mean Pakistan regularly show up in tournaments because they don’t.
 
Pak would beat SA in Pak , SA would probably beat Pak in SA but going by how things are going at the moment i wouldn't be so confident of SA turning PAK over so easily.

When i comes to neutral venues PAK are better at the moment as per records in ICC tournaments and in my opinion would start as favourites at this moment in time. Both are very similar i agree the only difference is one is ore professional then the other.

Pakistan will be thumped in South Africa in Test cricket. Our batting will not hold up against their attack and our bowling attack minus Yasir is rubbish, and Yasir is a non-factor in South Africa.
 
LOL. If anything it was India that got a mauling and a reality check when they last played New Zealand in a series Yes, New Zealand was terrible when they last toured India in 2016 but so is almost every other team that tours India.

New Zealand have been dominant at home. And also managed a series win in UAE and a draw in Sri Lanka. Granted, both teams are mediocre in this format, but winning in UAE and drawing in Lanka are big achievements for non-Asian teams. Look at other SENA teams performances there. Australia have lost twice in UAE, and been whitewashed in Lanka. South Africa got an even worse thrashing in Sri Lanka last time they were there, also whitewashed. England had success in Lanka but lost both series they played in UAE comprehensively.

Also, New Zealand hasn't toured South Africa for a test series in 7 years. Against Australia they somehow always lose. It's some kind of mental block. Doesn't even matter where they are playing.

India beta n.z in 2018. (4-1) with a weakened side.
 
Pakistan in international tournaments is a much better team than South Africa. Even our worst ever World Cup team managed to beat a top quality South African side at the 2015 World Cup. And now they have neither that fearsome pace attack, nor that formidable batting line-up.

What top quality SA team? That SA ODI team wasnt that good. In fact, SA have not been all that in ODIs for a very long time.
 
Pakistan will be thumped in South Africa in Test cricket. Our batting will not hold up against their attack and our bowling attack minus Yasir is rubbish, and Yasir is a non-factor in South Africa.

Shaheen is rubbish?
 
Cricket works in cycles so it's perfectly natural that a team experiences a dip because talent sort of dries up. You always have a golden generation. Pakistan had the 90s team, Australia had the late 90's to 2007 team. SA from 2008-2015. England have an embarrassment of riches right now but I would expect them to have a dip when the likes of Buttler, Stokes, Morgan, Bairstow retire at the same time. That's just how it is.

But because countries like India, England, Australia, SA have a good domestic system in place, sooner or later these teams rise up again. SA will rise up once more.

It's only teams like SL, Pakistan, WI, where you don't have a proper system is where you'll find trouble and these teams will struggle to be an elite team again.
 
Shaheen is rubbish?

He is good but he is not among the best Test pacers yet. All other options are truly mediocre.

Pakistan has one of the worst bowling attacks in the world in Test cricket. South African attack is still very good especially at home.
 
Cricket works in cycles so it's perfectly natural that a team experiences a dip because talent sort of dries up. You always have a golden generation. Pakistan had the 90s team, Australia had the late 90's to 2007 team. SA from 2008-2015. England have an embarrassment of riches right now but I would expect them to have a dip when the likes of Buttler, Stokes, Morgan, Bairstow retire at the same time. That's just how it is.

But because countries like India, England, Australia, SA have a good domestic system in place, sooner or later these teams rise up again. SA will rise up once more.

It's only teams like SL, Pakistan, WI, where you don't have a proper system is where you'll find trouble and these teams will struggle to be an elite team again.

India had 2004 - 2010 and then 2014-2019.
 
Thank god,they didn't tour to WestIndies otherwise they would have got smashed there.
 
Some people here tend to go overboard. For one thing, South Africa is always a cut above Pakistan because unlike Pakistan the professionalism and discipline in their game never goes away, which is most evident in the fielding. That said, is there really that much of a gulf between South Africa and Pakistan now? I mean look at the rankings. Pakistan is only 5 points behind South Africa in both Tests and ODIs. And this is keeping in mind that Pakistan is usually terrible in bilateral ODIs against higher ranked teams, against whom they almost always lose.

Also, South Africa in international tournaments remains a travesty. And we all know that in limited-overs cricket, international tournaments are the real litmus test of how good a side is. Their last World Cup campaign in particular showed that cracks were emerging in their side. Usually they would play well and then choke in the knockouts. But this time they were comprehensively beaten on regular occasions, including twice by lower ranked teams: Bangladesh and Pakistan.

This is the weakest SAF team in decades, and they are severely hit by the quota system; still they are above PAK in ranking which itself tells how good their system is. They have overcome 20 years complete isolation to be among top 2-3 teams in world; but this time they are facing multiple problem at one time - it’ll take few more years.

The tournament choker tag is unjustified because they have won an ICC event and was extremely unlucky that their best years cut path with those frightening Aussies - lost to them in 1999 & 2007 SF, lost to host NZ as well in 2015. Missed out 1992 Finals for a bizarre rain rule, which back fired their ill intentional tactics (bowled 45 overs less when ENG was running away). They looked flat in only 2019 because of this transition which might continue till 2023, but they should be among top teams again in 2027. And, even this low time they’ll crash PAK in Tests at home; will compete well away. In fact, if that series is played in PAK, depending on toss, it can go either way.
 
It's sad that SA has been the only team to have had an upper hand against Australia in Australia in last 12 years (3 series wins), the others majority of them have not even been competitive there. England has been Pakistan-esque there since 2010-11 Ashes. NZ somehow goes missing every time they play Australia in Tests whether at home or away. India are usually the only ones who are competitive there.

But the best rivalry in the last decade or so has been SA vs Aus which will be diluted to a great effect now.
SA vs Aus 2012
SA vs Eng 2012
Aus vs SA 2014
Eng vs Ind 2012

These 4 were probably the best test series of last decade and 3 of them involve SA.
 
This is the weakest SAF team in decades, and they are severely hit by the quota system; still they are above PAK in ranking which itself tells how good their system is. They have overcome 20 years complete isolation to be among top 2-3 teams in world; but this time they are facing multiple problem at one time - it’ll take few more years.

The tournament choker tag is unjustified because they have won an ICC event and was extremely unlucky that their best years cut path with those frightening Aussies - lost to them in 1999 & 2007 SF, lost to host NZ as well in 2015. Missed out 1992 Finals for a bizarre rain rule, which back fired their ill intentional tactics (bowled 45 overs less when ENG was running away). They looked flat in only 2019 because of this transition which might continue till 2023, but they should be among top teams again in 2027. And, even this low time they’ll crash PAK in Tests at home; will compete well away. In fact, if that series is played in PAK, depending on toss, it can go either way.

SA's choker tag is entirely justified, its not just about 1999 semi final, if you look at 1996 and 2011 QF, they topped the group stages only to choke at the first hurdle in knockouts. Also, the worldT20 in 2007,when they needed to score only 120 against India to reach semis, but they failed even in that. They hosted 3 world events (2003 WC, 2007 WT20, 2009 CT) but failed to reach semis in any of them.
 
India had 2004 - 2010 and then 2014-2019.

That 2011-2013 was transitional period for India and they had great depth on the benches.
South Africa are going through a self imposed decline. So many white guys went kolpak due to fear of not getting picked for the senior side due to the quota system and guys like zondo and tsolekile have been given international caps despite of presence of better players in the domestics.
Van Der Dussen had to wait till he was 30 to debut and took to international cricket like fish to water.
 
According to reports - Cricket South Africa is looking to get 7 players of colour in the X1 by 2022-23 season which means there will be only 4 white players in the team.
 
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SA's choker tag is entirely justified, its not just about 1999 semi final, if you look at 1996 and 2011 QF, they topped the group stages only to choke at the first hurdle in knockouts. Also, the worldT20 in 2007,when they needed to score only 120 against India to reach semis, but they failed even in that. They hosted 3 world events (2003 WC, 2007 WT20, 2009 CT) but failed to reach semis in any of them.

Even in 2015 they choked hard in the field while defending. messed up 2-3 runouts, and a simple catch just in the last 5ish overs.
 
What top quality SA team? That SA ODI team wasnt that good. In fact, SA have not been all that in ODIs for a very long time.

South Africa were one of the favorites at the 2015 World Cup and they had a very good side with AB at his absolute peak batting-wise.
 
In Tests, South Africa is more likely to beat Pakistan away than vice-versa. In Limited Overs cricket, South Africa will be favorites everywhere.

Yes Pakistan is a better tournament team but then anyone is better than South Africa in that department. It doesn’t make Pakistan any special and doesn’t mean Pakistan regularly show up in tournaments because they don’t.

I am not saying Pakistan is a better ODI team than South Africa. But Pakistan is definitely a better T20 side than South Africa.

But point is none of these things matter since bilateral ODIs and T20Is are essentially meaningless. They are meaningful for the teams languishing at 8 and 9 who have a chance of missing out on direct World Cup qualification.

As for Tests, its better to let the result of the upcoming series speak for itself.
 
India beta n.z in 2018. (4-1) with a weakened side.

I was talking about Tests. But even in ODIs New Zealand have more than returned the favor to India for that series loss; first by knocking India out of the World Cup and then white-washing a full strength Indian team 3-0.
 
This is the weakest SAF team in decades, and they are severely hit by the quota system; still they are above PAK in ranking which itself tells how good their system is. They have overcome 20 years complete isolation to be among top 2-3 teams in world; but this time they are facing multiple problem at one time - it’ll take few more years.

The tournament choker tag is unjustified because they have won an ICC event and was extremely unlucky that their best years cut path with those frightening Aussies - lost to them in 1999 & 2007 SF, lost to host NZ as well in 2015. Missed out 1992 Finals for a bizarre rain rule, which back fired their ill intentional tactics (bowled 45 overs less when ENG was running away). They looked flat in only 2019 because of this transition which might continue till 2023, but they should be among top teams again in 2027. And, even this low time they’ll crash PAK in Tests at home; will compete well away. In fact, if that series is played in PAK, depending on toss, it can go either way.

This quota system argument is getting very old. Rabada, Ngidi and Phehlukwayo make the team on merit. Same goes for colored players like Shamsi, Maharaj, or guys like Zubayr Hamza, Beuran Hendricks who have earned a place in the side through their performances. Bavuma is the only one you could make this argument for but lately even he has been scoring runs in domestic.

They were hard done once in 8 World Cup appearances. The choker tag is completely justified. Not just because they always lose knock-out games, but also because of the way in which they lose them. 1999 and 2015 are two prime examples of a typical South African capitulation in the field. Two games they should have won but lost simply because they choked at moments when the game was theirs for the taking. 1996 and 2011 are examples of a typical South African batting capitulation. In both quarter finals they seemed on course for the targets they were chasing and in both games, out of nowhere, they just collapsed.

There are other examples aswell. Like the 2002 Champions Trophy semi-final where they were 192-1 chasing 262. They needed 70 at better than run a ball with 9 wickets in hand, and yet somehow choked and lost the match by 10 runs.

'Unlucky' is what New Zealand were in the 2019 Final. South Africa just have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot. Also, the Knockout Cup was barely a tournament to begin with. And I have no idea why it is even considered an ICC event. The Champions Trophy did not begin until 2002.
 
It's sad that SA has been the only team to have had an upper hand against Australia in Australia in last 12 years (3 series wins), the others majority of them have not even been competitive there. England has been Pakistan-esque there since 2010-11 Ashes. NZ somehow goes missing every time they play Australia in Tests whether at home or away. India are usually the only ones who are competitive there.

But the best rivalry in the last decade or so has been SA vs Aus which will be diluted to a great effect now.
SA vs Aus 2012
SA vs Eng 2012
Aus vs SA 2014
Eng vs Ind 2012

These 4 were probably the best test series of last decade and 3 of them involve SA.

Agree that the South Africa - Australia rivalry has been the most competitive and interesting match-up over the last decade.

I'd probably include the 2016/17 series ahead of the 2012/13 one though, which was relatively boring given the flat pitches that were served up by the Australian curators.

For me the top 4 series in the last decade should include:

India vs England 2012/13
South Africa vs Australia 2013/14
Australia vs South Africa 2016/17
India vs Australia 2016/17
 
This quota system argument is getting very old. Rabada, Ngidi and Phehlukwayo make the team on merit. Same goes for colored players like Shamsi, Maharaj, or guys like Zubayr Hamza, Beuran Hendricks who have earned a place in the side through their performances. Bavuma is the only one you could make this argument for but lately even he has been scoring runs in domestic.

They were hard done once in 8 World Cup appearances. The choker tag is completely justified. Not just because they always lose knock-out games, but also because of the way in which they lose them. 1999 and 2015 are two prime examples of a typical South African capitulation in the field. Two games they should have won but lost simply because they choked at moments when the game was theirs for the taking. 1996 and 2011 are examples of a typical South African batting capitulation. In both quarter finals they seemed on course for the targets they were chasing and in both games, out of nowhere, they just collapsed.

There are other examples aswell. Like the 2002 Champions Trophy semi-final where they were 192-1 chasing 262. They needed 70 at better than run a ball with 9 wickets in hand, and yet somehow choked and lost the match by 10 runs.

'Unlucky' is what New Zealand were in the 2019 Final. South Africa just have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot. Also, the Knockout Cup was barely a tournament to begin with. And I have no idea why it is even considered an ICC event. The Champions Trophy did not begin until 2002.

SAF brought technology in the game but they became over reliant on it - their play book is dominated by computer programs, which made their players vulnerable to any pressure situation. They are a much better team than their players ICC results. 1998 was the first edition of ICC KO tournament, which was played till 2004, after that they changed it to round robin format. 1998 is an icc event, because it was organised by ICC for a global trophy.
 
SAF brought technology in the game but they became over reliant on it - their play book is dominated by computer programs, which made their players vulnerable to any pressure situation. They are a much better team than their players ICC results. 1998 was the first edition of ICC KO tournament, which was played till 2004, after that they changed it to round robin format. 1998 is an icc event, because it was organised by ICC for a global trophy.

This is not a good excuse. And at the end of the day it also does not matter as the bottom-line is that South Africa is still choking in ICC tournaments. The only way for a team to prove their potential is by winning. And if you can't win the big games then you are mentally weak and therefore, not a top team.

Also, you are wrong. KO Cup was played for 2 editions till 2000. From 2002, the format was changed to round-robin and the tournament renamed as the Champions Trophy. The KO Cup format was a farce which is why you barely hear anyone even mention those first two tournaments, eventhough they technically count as ICC tournaments.
 
South Africa were one of the favorites at the 2015 World Cup and they had a very good side with AB at his absolute peak batting-wise.

Disagree with this. Australia, NZ and even India were ahead of SA in that World Cup. In most previous Workd Cups, they were one of the top 2 favourites.
 
Disagree with this. Australia, NZ and even India were ahead of SA in that World Cup. In most previous Workd Cups, they were one of the top 2 favourites.

SA lost because of rain coming at wrong time. We should have been in the finals that time.
 
Had India won the toss in semi finals we would have won the semis vs Australia.

Not sure of that but in Australian conditions, we were 2and only to Australia and the final should have beenIndua -Australia. NZ looked scary good at home but were exposed the moment they played in Australia.
 
According to reports - Cricket South Africa is looking to get 7 players of colour in the X1 by 2022-23 season which means there will be only 4 white players in the team.

Sad

Decline of SA cricket is going on
 
That's a poor excuse. SA were beaten by the better team and they dropped a catch or two along the way.

Without rain, SA would have posted 380 total or maybe even more. NZ weren't going to chase that. The game got shorter and it helped them in the run-chase.

The rain also happened at completely wrong time because the acceleration was about to start at that time and we all know how dangerous AB and Miller have always been in final 15 overs.

To conclude, SA got unlucky in 2015 semis and would have reached finals and gave comparatively better fight to Aussies.
 
Disagree with this. Australia, NZ and even India were ahead of SA in that World Cup. In most previous Workd Cups, they were one of the top 2 favourites.

On paper South Africa was on-par with all those teams. And let's not forget that they were an inch away from the final, which they could have easily made were it not for certain things going badly against them. Some their own fault, some not so much.
 
A Saffer team chosen on merit would always be 1 or 2 in the World. They have an amazing School system based around rugby but cricket also benefits. I would like to see ICC allow SA to play another team based on merit. The new proposals are racist in the extreme.
 
I worry for SA. This whole quota thing will take a while to settle and they will need strong leadership to steady the boat. Their bowling still looks good, but the batting is worrisome. I like the attitude of Van durdussen, may he get more chances to play.
 
This is not a good excuse. And at the end of the day it also does not matter as the bottom-line is that South Africa is still choking in ICC tournaments. The only way for a team to prove their potential is by winning. And if you can't win the big games then you are mentally weak and therefore, not a top team.

Also, you are wrong. KO Cup was played for 2 editions till 2000. From 2002, the format was changed to round-robin and the tournament renamed as the Champions Trophy. The KO Cup format was a farce which is why you barely hear anyone even mention those first two tournaments, eventhough they technically count as ICC tournaments.

Yes, from 2002 it was round-robin but still effectively KO in a three team group with two main team in each group. It was later changed to eight teams in two groups.

I am sure the first two edition would have been heard lot more if the winners were not SAF & NZ. And, it’s much tougher to win three KO games at a stress therefore both SAF & NZ should be given due credit. Also, the WC format used in 1996, 2011 & 2015 were basically an extended version of icc KO cup - apart from BD in 2015, it was predictable eight teams in QF stage and then a KO. Any way, both SAF & NZ have won an ICC ODI event and they should be given due credit.

SAF indeed are underachiever in ICC event, often for letting down key moments but they were damn unlucky as well - in 1992, 2003 & 2015. In 1999 also, because technically the game was tied and that time they used the tie breaker as H2H, so Aussies qualified. Their only genuine choke was 2011, 1996 they were beaten by a majestic innings and Woolmer’s call to drop Donald for Symcox didn’t help either.
 
I think world cup 2019 with its long league stage was a fair reflection of where teams stand in odi cricket.
Southafrica are probably number 6 as they were in that tournament.
 
Yes, from 2002 it was round-robin but still effectively KO in a three team group with two main team in each group. It was later changed to eight teams in two groups.

I am sure the first two edition would have been heard lot more if the winners were not SAF & NZ. And, it’s much tougher to win three KO games at a stress therefore both SAF & NZ should be given due credit. Also, the WC format used in 1996, 2011 & 2015 were basically an extended version of icc KO cup - apart from BD in 2015, it was predictable eight teams in QF stage and then a KO. Any way, both SAF & NZ have won an ICC ODI event and they should be given due credit.

SAF indeed are underachiever in ICC event, often for letting down key moments but they were damn unlucky as well - in 1992, 2003 & 2015. In 1999 also, because technically the game was tied and that time they used the tie breaker as H2H, so Aussies qualified. Their only genuine choke was 2011, 1996 they were beaten by a majestic innings and Woolmer’s call to drop Donald for Symcox didn’t help either.

You may see those occasions as unlucky but frankly those kind of brain fades are unforgivable. And I'm talking specifically about 1999 and 2015. 9 out of 10 teams would not have panicked the way South Africa did.

And regarding 2003, I would argue that, that one was probably their most embarrassing blunder/World Cup exit because they completely miscalculated their D/L score. The whole thing still cracks me up to this day because of the way it unfolded. Murali who was bowling what turned out to be the last over of the match had already given South Africa a freebie in the shape of 5wides and Boucher followed by smashing Murali for a six on the penultimate ball of the over. He then punched the air in delight thinking South Africa were ahead on D/L and proceeded to defend the last ball of the over cautiously. Had South Africa not miscalculated and he wouldn't have gotten the wrong message, he would have comfortably nudged the last ball of the over for a single and South Africa would have been through.

When a team displays this kind of sheer incompetence in this game, I don't care how good that team is; they don't deserve to win.=
 
2003 was the biggest choke of them all. They had a very strong team and were playing at home - Australia would still have won the World Cup but they should have played them in the final.

The lackluster performances against West Indies and New Zealand were pretty bad but the D/L miscalculation was complete madness.
 
SA Test Team since retirement of ABD

In Home Test Series

Won vs Pak by 3-0

Lost vs SL by 0-2

Lost vs ENG by 1-3

Won vs SL by 2-0

In Away Test Series

Lost Series in SL by 0-2

Lost series in India by 0-3

Lost series in Pak by 0-2

SA test team at its lowest level
 
This is certainly the lowest ebb we've seen from SA in the last 30 years. They are disjointed, have no talent, and are lacking belief. They can't even field. None of these are traits of the typical South Africa.

South Africa are a sporting haven so this will go one of two ways. Either within the next few years the next talented batch come along and yank SA back to where they were. Or, the kids lose interest in their failing cricket team and play any other myriad of sports available in SA instead.

In that case SA could slip to WI standards and face talent drain to England.
 
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Countdown to QDQ retirement begins

Faf will also be calling it curtains soon. Not sure how long they will rely on Elgar to hang around.

Van Dussen and Markram, plus Bavuma may be the only useful Batsmen available to them within a year or so.
 
SA will remain a force but will need atleast 10 years to overcome this transition targets hurdle etc if not for transition targets they would still be in the top 3 easily.

Regarding the Gulf between Pakistan and SA it has not come as a surprise that Pakistan have beaten SA comfortably a home. Pakistan is a better all round side currently and only place SA will be favorites against PAK is in SA. Indeed Pakistan beat SA easily in the last ICC WC.
 
South Africa still have some high quality players.

Markram, linde and nortje's performance should encourage the team.

There are still a handful of young players who have not made their debuts yet. So the future is not grim at all
 
I recon 90% of talented white cricketers in SA schools will opt for Rugby instead of cricket now as a profession. We will lose many, many potential world class cricketers because of the Quota system and the current decline of SA cricket.
 
Countdown to QDQ retirement begins

Faf will also be calling it curtains soon. Not sure how long they will rely on Elgar to hang around.

Van Dussen and Markram, plus Bavuma may be the only useful Batsmen available to them within a year or so.

De Kock has 5-6 years left. Faf would probably retire after the next South African home season.
 
SA can't win anywhere outside home at this point of time.

Even at home, they can only win against Sri Lanka, Pakistan and West Indies and the teams below that.

In ICC world tournaments, they will lose to the likes of West Indies and Bangladesh like they lost in 2019 WC.

Fact is fact!
 
De Kock has 5-6 years left. Faf would probably retire after the next South African home season.

Do you still think SA is a better test team than Pakistan? Or you are willing to take your words back? I mean they have lost to Pakistan everywhere other than SA?
 
Its pretty bizarre that such a talent like de kock is fading in no time

I think captaincy pressure is hitting him hard.....

He looked far better than this whenever he plays in IPL, but this much steep decline in SA jersey is alarming
 
SA can't win anywhere outside home at this point of time.

Even at home, they can only win against Sri Lanka, Pakistan and West Indies and the teams below that.

In ICC world tournaments, they will lose to the likes of West Indies and Bangladesh like they lost in 2019 WC.

Fact is fact!

They beat India and AUS not that long ago? Agree with your overall point they are not the same team as before and may even lose at home to any side. Indeed they lost to SL at home not that long ago.
 
Its pretty bizarre that such a talent like de kock is fading in no time

I think captaincy pressure is hitting him hard.....

He looked far better than this whenever he plays in IPL, but this much steep decline in SA jersey is alarming

He is a good T20 player and IPL being a domestic league its easy enough for him.
 
They beat India and AUS not that long ago? Agree with your overall point they are not the same team as before and may even lose at home to any side. Indeed they lost to SL at home not that long ago.

I meant post ABD retirement. Those wins had him playing a major role.

SA needs a good leader at this point. Team is still not bad.
 
They beat India and AUS not that long ago? Agree with your overall point they are not the same team as before and may even lose at home to any side. Indeed they lost to SL at home not that long ago.

Those 2 series were known for devilliers heroics

Without him SA would have easiily lose both hands down
 
He is a good T20 player and IPL being a domestic league its easy enough for him.

He used to be good test player and a great odi player as well

But i can't remember a memorable innings from him for a while
 
Do you still think SA is a better test team than Pakistan? Or you are willing to take your words back? I mean they have lost to Pakistan everywhere other than SA?

What do you mean everywhere?

It is not like they are going to play Tests in England, Australia and New Zealand etc.

Potential wise, South Africa is better. They lost their series because they didn’t have a captain and they were not prepared. I did not see any planning.

Elgar is better than all our openers.

Markram has the same potential as Babar but has stronger mentality and superior leadership qualities.

Faf is still better than all our batsmen minus Babar.

QdK is better than any WK batsman in history of Pakistan.

Rabada is better than all our pacers.

Maharaj is better than all our spinners minus Yasir.

VD Dussen walks into the Pakistan team.

This series was more about South Africa shooting themselves in the foot rather than getting outplayed by a good team.

More than 50% of their dismissals are self-inflicted. Pakistan’s bowling was average and the batting was even worse.

I don’t recall the last time a team played so poorly to inflict a whitewash. It was truly a pathetic series.
 
I recon 90% of talented white cricketers in SA schools will opt for Rugby instead of cricket now as a profession. We will lose many, many potential world class cricketers because of the Quota system and the current decline of SA cricket.

white south afircan population in 1992 -> 13%, today 7.8%

there is no country in the world where the icc has managed to develop a market for test cricket. the advent of t20 cricket has hidden the fact that test cricket is only mainly followed in the historic heartlands of the sport. even ireland, perhaps the most promising of the new test sides has stated test cricket isnt financially viable despite it being nearly 15 years since their landmark win against pakistan.

the idea that you could enforce quotas to drive up black interest in test cricket was speculative to be very kind. the only long term effect it is having is weakening an already dwindling the white south african test cricket fan base.

south africa will continue to produce good player because they are athletic and have a good system, but u wont produce the superstar players of the 90s off a conveyor belt unless u have significant grass root interest in wanting to be a test cricketer.
 
What do you mean everywhere?

It is not like they are going to play Tests in England, Australia and New Zealand etc.

Potential wise, South Africa is better. They lost their series because they didn’t have a captain and they were not prepared. I did not see any planning.

Elgar is better than all our openers.

Markram has the same potential as Babar but has stronger mentality and superior leadership qualities.

Faf is still better than all our batsmen minus Babar.

QdK is better than any WK batsman in history of Pakistan.

Rabada is better than all our pacers.

Maharaj is better than all our spinners minus Yasir.

VD Dussen walks into the Pakistan team.

This series was more about South Africa shooting themselves in the foot rather than getting outplayed by a good team.

More than 50% of their dismissals are self-inflicted. Pakistan’s bowling was average and the batting was even worse.

I don’t recall the last time a team played so poorly to inflict a whitewash. It was truly a pathetic series.

Agreed with most part but Faf is a pretty average batsman. Azhar and Rizwan are also better than him. Azhar for sure!
 
I meant post ABD retirement. Those wins had him playing a major role.

SA needs a good leader at this point. Team is still not bad.

Those 2 series were known for devilliers heroics

Without him SA would have easiily lose both hands down

Obviously ABD was a great player for them and had a role in those series but not so much that somebody else cant do it. However this is definitely weaker SA side.
 
What do you mean everywhere?

It is not like they are going to play Tests in England, Australia and New Zealand etc.

Potential wise, South Africa is better. They lost their series because they didn’t have a captain and they were not prepared. I did not see any planning.

Elgar is better than all our openers.

Markram has the same potential as Babar but has stronger mentality and superior leadership qualities.

Faf is still better than all our batsmen minus Babar.

QdK is better than any WK batsman in history of Pakistan.

Rabada is better than all our pacers.

Maharaj is better than all our spinners minus Yasir.

VD Dussen walks into the Pakistan team.

This series was more about South Africa shooting themselves in the foot rather than getting outplayed by a good team.

More than 50% of their dismissals are self-inflicted. Pakistan’s bowling was average and the batting was even worse.

I don’t recall the last time a team played so poorly to inflict a whitewash. It was truly a pathetic series.

Pakistan also shot themselves on the foot by dropping every chance KW offered in NZ but this is no excuse at international level. Pakistan have beaten SA easily in ICC tournaments recently. All evidence suggests Pakistan is the stronger team over all.

I must say i had a right laugh at self inflicted when a team loses these kind of excuses can be made for any team.
 
A combined best XI for Pak- SA:-

Aiden Markram(c)
Azhar Ali
Van Der dussen
Babar Azam
Quinton de Kock
Mohammad Rizwan (wkt)
Faheem Ashraf
Yasir Shah
Kagiso Rabada
Shaheen Shah Afridi
Anrich Nortje
 
Unlucky Force

Lost their unbeaten streak in T20i series in Asia today
 
The Proteas won't ignore the claims of veterans such as Dale Steyn and Imran Tahir for selection in the ICC World T20, which takes place later this year. The duo, along with Chris Morris, are currently out-of-favour, but still available and primed for game time in respective leagues. Graeme Smith, national director of cricket, though reiterated that any thoughts on selecting them would be performance-based.

The door has not been shut on the claims of men like Dale Steyn, Imran Tahir and Chris Morris for Proteas selection for the ICC World T20 later this year. Graeme Smith, Cricket South Africa's director of cricket, gave that assurance ahead of the domestic T20 Challenge - which commences on Friday - despite Morris being the only one of the trio to feature.

The lanky all-rounder has joined the Titans for the duration of the competition. Steyn and Tahir won't be twiddling their thumbs though as both veterans have landed gigs in the upcoming Pakistan Super League with Quetta Gladiators and Multan Sultans respectively.

"As far as I know, they're available to be selected," said Smith. "We would definitely want to see them playing more. They'd have to put themselves in the frame through performances in leagues, be it overseas or in our own domestic one. "I know that Chris is turning out for the Titans, which is positive." However, the Proteas' selection patterns over the past year or so have suggested that older if pedigreed players aren't quite being prioritised unless they're still considered key to the team. A good example would be the difference between a Faf du Plessis and Tahir. The former was in fine form during last year's T20 series at home against England and it's still debatable whether any other batsman has truly established himself as a viable alternative to date.

In contrast, Tabraiz Shamsi, who was South Africa's standout performer against Pakistan, has established himself as arguably one of the team's most valuable assets and positioned himself as a worthy "successor" to the 41-year-old Tahir. Mark Boucher, national coach, also recently noted that the left-arm tweaker could be considered the Proteas' first-choice spinner in white-ball cricket. Nonetheless, with the team desperate to put years of underperformance at showpiece tournaments behind them, the national selectors will have to keep an open mind. "It would all be performance-based," said Smith.

"Our goal is obviously to put out the best World T20 squad that we can, but we can only judge that on the performances people are putting in, not on, I guess, past performances. "The guys need to get playing and they need to play well to be considered."

https://www.news24.com/sport/cricke...evergreen-steyn-and-tahir-says-smith-20210217
 
Cricket South Africa (CSA) in conjunction with an Independent Evaluation Committee (IEC) has announced the teams that will make up the new domestic cricket structure for the next two seasons.

It was revealed on Monday that Boland, Central Gauteng Lions, Eastern Province, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal (Coastal), North West, Northerns and Western Province will be part of the eight-team Division 1.

Border, Easterns, KwaZulu-Natal Inland, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape and South Western Districts will join a seven-team Division 2.

The much-anticipated announcement was headed by chairman David Richardson and his IEC Team.

It follows a process that, in addition to a detailed evaluation of each Member’s performance over a 4-year period against identified criteria across seven key dimensions, also required all CSA Members to submit bids to the IEC.

The bids were required to be strategic and forward-looking in nature, addressing seven dimensions. They were evaluated during February and followed by an audit process, before the final decision was reached and presented to the CSA Interim Board, who approved the outcome.

Confirmation of the structure ends months of consultation between CSA and the South African Cricketers’ Association (SACA) after a roadmap for the process was initially drawn up in February 2020.

“We would like to thank Dave Richardson and his Task Team for all their hard work and efforts to help us get to this point,” Acting President of the CSA Members’ Council, Rihan Richards, said. “I would like to congratulate those teams that have made it into the two divisions.

“Today is the culmination of a process that started back in 2016 when it became apparent that in order for CSA to maintain its position as a powerhouse in world cricket, it needed to create a strong pool of players reflective of our society. It was imperative that we reviewed our domestic structure to deliver on these goals.

“We have worked hard to get here and we believe this new structure will go a long way towards helping us achieve some of the goals laid down at the outset.”

Under the new structure, the current six-team franchise cricket make-up will be dissolved and replaced by a 15-team first-class system.

The format will see the teams split 8-7 into the two divisions, which will remain the same for the first two years, before an automatic promotion and relegation system commences. This automatic promotion and relegation system aims to provide healthy tension in the system which will enhance a high-performance environment, while providing opportunity and aspiration for those Division 2 Members, to compete in Division 1.

The calendar for Division 1 will be similar to the current system where the eight teams will play four-day, one-day and the Twenty20 cricket (MSL) all in a single round.

The same eight teams will also compete in a domestic T20 knockout tournament with the seven teams from Division 2, whose season will comprise of a four-day and one-day competition. Division 2 players will have an opportunity to play in the MSL via a Player Draft. National Contracted players and other international players will also feature in the Player Draft.

“The protocol followed in order for us to get here was a very objective and thorough one,” Chair of the Interim Board, Dr Stavros Nicolaou, added. “We therefore believe that the teams have been categorised in a fair and concise manner.

“To implement a structure such as this one required significant cooperation from across a multitude of stakeholders, not least of which was the affiliate members. Ultimately we believe that a structure has been put in place that will give us cutting edge, enhance global competitiveness and will ensure sustainability of the game in South Africa.”
 
So South Africa have gone the opposite way to Pakistan. They are moving away from the 6 team structure that had been in place for the past 15 years.

They couldn't afford the old two-tier system whereby you had the franchises in the top-tier and regional teams in the second-tier. The historical affinity that people had with the provinces during the Currie Cup era just didn't translate to the new franchise system.

The transformation restrictions on franchise cricket also meant quite a few white cricketers were slipping through the system.

There was the added complication of both tiers counting in first-class records so statistically there was skewed data as players that performed in the second-tier had stellar records.

I think South African cricket has a long road back to recovery, simply overhauling the first-class system might not really cut it in the long-run.
 
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SA with ABDV - Top 3-4 team
SA without ABDV - 7th ranked team

:inti
 
Sad to see South Africa like this. I think they will be back. A tough job for Bavuma.
 
SA can remain a force if they play this team:-

de kock
Markram
Van der Dussen(c)
AB de Villiers
David Miller
Klusenar
Pollock
Rabada
Nortje
Ngidi
 
Tbf

Pakistan did try their best to make sure SA remain a force
 
Sad state of affairs really.

Don't know what the likes of Kallis, AB and Steyn are going through right now seeing Bavuma , Ngidi etc humiliating their beloved nation.
 
Sad state of affairs really.

Don't know what the likes of Kallis, AB and Steyn are going through right now seeing Bavuma , Ngidi etc humiliating their beloved nation.

At least try to hide your bigotry.

De Kock, Markram and Klaasen all played awful shots yesterday but I guess that doesn't fit the narrative.

I remember Heino Kuhn stunk out the place opening on the 2017 England tour, but the same people crying about quotas were nowhere to be seen. Funny that.
 
A rubbish outfit that is only going to get worse.

You know you're borderline minnow level if you let a hack like Fakhar toy with your bowlers and resort to cheap stunts like what QdK had to pull in the end.
 
Poor test side since 2015. Last time they were outright favourites at a World Cup was back in 2011 and they haven't been a quality ODI side since 2013 atleast.

Not a force to contend with at all .
 
Poor test side since 2015. Last time they were outright favourites at a World Cup was back in 2011 and they haven't been a quality ODI side since 2013 atleast.

Not a force to contend with at all .

They won an ODI series vs India in India in 2015. It has been a poor side since 2017.
 
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