Stephen Fleming or Brendon McCullum - Who was the better captain for New Zealand?

[Hasan123]

2 wonderful leaders who achieved a lot out of a team who didnt have the most talanated players in the world but they still found a way to be successful. Furthermore both had contrasting leadership styles.

I would like to know who you think the better captain is between the 2. [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] @Cheif Destroyer [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION]

 

[Chief Destroyer]

McCullum, as he not only inherited a weak team, he built it into a world class LOI unit and competitive in tests. The brand of cricket he introduced to world cricket is probably the major influence in evolving LOI cricket to what it is today.

Fleming kept a weak team afloat but he was never able to build an identity or brand like Baz did. Neither did he develop any young players to lead the team after his retirement which Baz did in bunches.

In my mind, McCullum is undoubtedly the greatest captain in NZ history.

 

[Hasan123]

McCullum, as he not only inherited a weak team, he built it into a world class LOI unit and competitive in tests. The brand of cricket he introduced to world cricket is probably the major influence in evolving LOI cricket to what it is today.

Fleming kept a weak team afloat but he was never able to build an identity or brand like Baz did. Neither did he develop any young players to lead the team after his retirement which Baz did in bunches.

In my mind, McCullum is undoubtedly the greatest captain in NZ history.

Agree on Bmac creating a brand never seen for NZ. But Fleming produced some brilliant results for a weak side.

 

[Rana]

Bmac, he revolutionised NZ limited overs cricket.

Another guy that doesnt get much credit is Martin Guptill, he lead the charge IMO

 

[Hasan123]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

 

[Hasan123]

[MENTION=132954]Aman[/MENTION]

 

[MMHS]

Fleming - led from the front and built an all round team with limited resources. His achievements were not so glaring as Captain because he led the side when cricket was probably at its most competitive level - AUS, SAF, PAK, IND, SRL had some of their ATGs around while WI and ZIM were far better than what they are now. Still, led NZ to their only global title and made the WSC final over SAF. In Test, won a Series in UK and almost won a series against that AUS side in AUS. Mac changed the way NZ played cricket and he developed few players as well for his plan, still I’ll go for SF.

 

[shane]

Fleming. McCullum relied a lot on his own batting to command respect as a leader. Fleming was always a great and respected leader.

 

[KingKhanWC]

McCullum was far more attacking with his field placings. I loved watching his tactics.

 

[Buffet]

Fleming was a better captain. He was simply at another level. Mac knew just to attack and that's about it.

 

[giri26]

Fleming was a better captain, this is not even a contest.

 

[Junaids]

Fleming was a better captain, this is not even a contest.

Exactly.

Brendan McCullum only put together a brand of hyper-aggressive unnecessary defeats.

His ludicrous slogging lost the 2015 World Cup Final inside the first over.

His ludicrous slogging lost the 2015 Lords Test from an unassailable position.

McCullum's team underachieved.

Fleming's team achieved its potential - the 0-0 Test series draw in Australia 16 years ago against one of the three greatest teams in history is an historic achievement.

But to be honest, neither one of them is even close to being New Zealand's greatest ever skipper. That accolade clearly belongs to the greatest cricket radio commentator in the world, the peerless Jeremy Coney.

Coney made New Zealand so strong that they won away in England and Australia and did well in Asia.

And he managed the incredible achievement - which so many of the team members wanted to do - of pushing Richard Hadlee into a filthy urinal when he was being his usual selfish self.

 

[MMHS]

Exactly.

Brendan McCullum only put together a brand of hyper-aggressive unnecessary defeats.

His ludicrous slogging lost the 2015 World Cup Final inside the first over.

His ludicrous slogging lost the 2015 Lords Test from an unassailable position.

McCullum's team underachieved.

Fleming's team achieved its potential - the 0-0 Test series draw in Australia 16 years ago against one of the three greatest teams in history is an historic achievement.

But to be honest, neither one of them is even close to being New Zealand's greatest ever skipper. That accolade clearly belongs to the greatest cricket radio commentator in the world, the peerless Jeremy Coney.

Coney made New Zealand so strong that they won away in England and Australia and did well in Asia.

And he managed the incredible achievement - which so many of the team members wanted to do - of pushing Richard Hadlee into a filthy urinal when he was being his usual selfish self.

Coney or Howarth - I thought Howarth would be rated slightly higher.

Jeff Howarth, Coney, Fleming, Crowe, Mac is my order and I have no clue about Reid, read that he was a great captain. They rate Bert Suttcliffe and Congdin as well.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Fleming was a better captain. He was simply at another level. Mac knew just to attack and that's about it.

Nonsense. You clearly didn't watch Baz captain much.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Fleming

McCallum is an overrated captain. Just because he set strange field positions after every over does not make him a better captain.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

The only thing Fleming has over Baz is longevity. He has more accolades and wins because of that. Despite captaining for so long he was never able to build a team for the future. He was an astute tactician who kept the team afloat in a competitive environment. Despite having moments of brilliance, NZ were never able to break out of their shell and command respect around the world which Baz managed, yes in a relatively weaker environment but this is something NZ hadn't managed for decades. They actually became relevant again.

The only thing that stopped Baz from leading his team to further heights was lack of time. He achieved so much in such a short span. Fleming's production stopped when he retired, McCullum's will continue with the current generation of players that developed under him. By leading NZ to their first WC final ever, he inspired the next generation. NZ were actually pioneers of the current aggressive style of play and that's worth more than the occasional brilliance followed by long periods of mediocrity.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Fleming

McCallum is an overrated captain. Just because he set strange field positions after every over does not make him a better captain.

If you actually have listened to McCullum, you'd understand the thought process behind his field settings. They're strange because of your ignorance. I doubt you even understand field settings let alone what Baz was doing.

 

[The_Odd_One]

If you actually have listened to McCullum, you'd understand the thought process behind his field settings. They're strange because of your ignorance. I doubt you even understand field settings let alone what Baz was doing.

Dude calm down. You are acting like MCCallum won multiple ICC trophies and left a world beater team. Both are factually false.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Dude calm down. You are acting like MCCallum won multiple ICC trophies and left a world beater team. Both are factually false.

How long did Baz captain for? Remind me again. He lead the side to their first ever WC final. They definitely are capable of beating any team in world cricket in LOIs, home or away. In tests, they are still forming an identity but the young pieces are there. That potential will come into fruition in a few years.

 

[The_Odd_One]

How long did Baz captain for? Remind me again. He lead the side to their first ever WC final. They definitely are capable of beating any team in world cricket in LOIs, home or away. In tests, they are still forming an identity but the young pieces are there. That potential will come into fruition in a few years.

First WC final at home?

How many WCs did Fleming play at home? Fleming took NZ to several tournament knockouts with a far weaker team but let's not mention it.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

First WC final at home?

How many WCs did Fleming play at home? Fleming took NZ to several tournament knockouts with a far weaker team but let's not mention it.

Lol, what kind of reasoning is that? Several because he captained for much longer hence why I mentioned longevity.

As if Baz inherited a world class team. He built that team. Why wasn't Fleming able to develop a side for the future despite captaining for a far longer period if he was superior to Baz? NZ were down in the dumps again after his retirement.

 

[Ab Fan]

Fleming. But BMac was great too.

However, at times BMac's tactics costed his team because of ultra aggressiveness.

Fleming was obviously a better leader and a better tactician.

 

[Hasan123]

Fleming - led from the front and built an all round team with limited resources. His achievements were not so glaring as Captain because he led the side when cricket was probably at its most competitive level - AUS, SAF, PAK, IND, SRL had some of their ATGs around while WI and ZIM were far better than what they are now. Still, led NZ to their only global title and made the WSC final over SAF. In Test, won a Series in UK and almost won a series against that AUS side in AUS. Mac changed the way NZ played cricket and he developed few players as well for his plan, still I’ll go for SF.

What do you think of Williamson as a captain so far?

 

[Deewana Mastana]

Stephen Fleming.

 

[Robert]

Fleming put a decent test side together and was tactically astute. Would have done better if Bond had stayed fit.

Don’t know much about McCullum. His successes seem to have come in ODI cricket which I stopped following a couple of decades ago.

 

[MMHS]

What do you think of Williamson as a captain so far?

Decent- his 1st qualification is he makes the team automatically, then leading it from the front with performance. 5/6 years down the line, indeed he can step down as one of their best Captains.

 

[Hasan123]

Decent- his 1st qualification is he makes the team automatically, then leading it from the front with performance. 5/6 years down the line, indeed he can step down as one of their best Captains.

He seems good tactically, but lacks impact in LO with the bat.

 

[MMHS]

He seems good tactically, but lacks impact in LO with the bat.

You are making the common mistake like most - impact is a vague word, it varies team to team.

For PAK team, since Ul Haq and previous selectors have loaded the stable with Azhar Ali clones - from Ahmed, to Sarfraz, MoHa, Azhar, Imam, ..... and one by one kicked out everyone that likes to go after bowling (some themselves shoot at own feet), so everyone is desperate for "impact" and thinks Babar Azam bats for his century. Think about that NZ side - either side of Williamson, it opens with Munro & Guptil and has Taylor, Latham, Nichols, G'homme, Anderson, Neesham, Shantner and Jese Rayder isn't finished yet (just yesterday he has scored 165 in 4 hours in a FC match) - for them, it's more essential to have a Babar Azam than Sharjeel Khan.

This guy Willamson bats at 46/84 stats in ODI - that's the biggest impact for his side, even in T20s as well (36/123)

 

[Hasan123]

You are making the common mistake like most - impact is a vague word, it varies team to team.

For PAK team, since Ul Haq and previous selectors have loaded the stable with Azhar Ali clones - from Ahmed, to Sarfraz, MoHa, Azhar, Imam, ..... and one by one kicked out everyone that likes to go after bowling (some themselves shoot at own feet), so everyone is desperate for "impact" and thinks Babar Azam bats for his century. Think about that NZ side - either side of Williamson, it opens with Munro & Guptil and has Taylor, Latham, Nichols, G'homme, Anderson, Neesham, Shantner and Jese Rayder isn't finished yet (just yesterday he has scored 165 in 4 hours in a FC match) - for them, it's more essential to have a Babar Azam than Sharjeel Khan.

This guy Willamson bats at 46/84 stats in ODI - that's the biggest impact for his side, even in T20s as well (36/123)

But he is seen as the best player in his side yet he doesn't impact games enough for me. After facing 80 odd balls yesterday, he wasn't even close to a run a ball on a flat pitch. There are times when it's necessary to drop anchor, but there are times to accelerate. I don't see that Williamsons game as of yet.

 

[MMHS]

But he is seen as the best player in his side yet he doesn't impact games enough for me. After facing 80 odd balls yesterday, he wasn't even close to a run a ball on a flat pitch. There are times when it's necessary to drop anchor, but there are times to accelerate. I don't see that Williamsons game as of yet.

I have seen yesterday's match almost ball by ball - NZ missed by 6 runs for late order failure; around 50 of 30 with 6 wickets at hand in Indian grounds under dew, with 2 set batsmen in and main spinners finished - you have to win it from there on.

NZ closed to within 6 runs because of Williamson - he batted almost the entire period when Chahal, Axer & Jadav were bowling. Without that batting (say out for 25 of 23), NZ would have been all out for 300 in 47 overs.

You can't judge impact from CricInfo only.

 

[Hasan123]

I have seen yesterday's match almost ball by ball - NZ missed by 6 runs for late order failure; around 50 of 30 with 6 wickets at hand in Indian grounds under dew, with 2 set batsmen in and main spinners finished - you have to win it from there on.

NZ closed to within 6 runs because of Williamson - he batted almost the entire period when Chahal, Axer & Jadav were bowling. Without that batting (say out for 25 of 23), NZ would have been all out for 300 in 47 overs.

You can't judge impact from CricInfo only.

I didn't watch the game so fair enough.

 

[MMHS]

I didn't watch the game so fair enough.

He does play well to the situation - couple of years back, against PAK in UAE (Series decider), he paced his innings perfectly to reach above par score from no where. There are few more such innings from him.

 

[Hasan123]

He does play well to the situation - couple of years back, against PAK in UAE (Series decider), he paced his innings perfectly to reach above par score from no where. There are few more such innings from him.

Yes but when chasing big scores he's found out. I get what your saying but for me he lacks impact in LO and is behind Root,Kohli,and Smith.

 

[khurram39]

BM achieved much more than flemming and he lead the team to a different level. He made them believe.

 

[wrongun]

Fleming was a great tactician- he devised way to get a draw in a series in Oz vs Oz with an atg Oz lineup in 2001.

Considering the teams on paper and the weakness of that NZ roster (really not even close to one of their best) it was an amazing achievement. Captained Steve Waugh off the park (and I am a huge S. Waugh fan).

McCullum would have needed to have won a trophy or exceeded Fleming in Oz in order to be the better captain imo, as he had a much better lineup.

 

[SM1989]

McCullum by far. Took New Zealand to their first world cup final.

 

[Abdul]

Fleming.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I will even have Crowe over BMac. He used Greatbatch like Jayasuriya in 1992. Opened the bowling with Deepak Patel. That was some innovation.