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Test ranking system is flawed?

Nikhil_cric

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India have recently regained the no.1 rank in Tests by whitewashing NZ but Pakistan have actually drawn a series against England in England. Do PPers, in their hearts, believe that the system is flawed and in favour of home track bullies like India? discuss
 
Current position:

1. Pakistanis = YES
2. Indians = NO
3. Neutrals = 50/50
 
Lol nobody and I mean nobody thinks that the system is perfect and doesn't have flaws. If they do they need to re evaluate their life.

Though the only thing is that it's the same for everyone

Ofcourse the rankings have a bunch of flaws

The major one is that there is no difference between home and away series and they all have the same value. Whereas anyone who knows cricket knows that's not the case

Pakistans 2-0 win in UAE does not compare in achievement to Pakistan's 2-2 draw in England. But in this ranking system the UAE win fetches more points

Similarly India's 3-0 win over NZ yields it the same number of points as it would have if India had beaten NZ 3-0 in NZ.

Let's look at it this way. If Pakistan manage to draw the series in Aus it will be a historic achievement and atleast for me mean that Pak is the best team currently regardless of what rankings say. But in the rankin table Pakistan may actually lose points.
 
Objectively speaking, its flawed.

Why?

Cos it does not consider home and away series.

So there is no "heart of hearts" situations. It is flawed.

Just our turn to enjoy it now cos it has been the same flawed for everyone and same flawed even during our overseas cycle when others gained points while we had to go on tough tours.

So might as well cherish the rankings now.

And comparison wise, I do think Pakistan is the better test side cos away series performance counts for more.

But we ain't giving back the number one till end of 2017. :bm
 
If drawing was only the criteria ,Kiwis have drawn in England and UAE.Pakistan is defn a very good test team and their away(England) performance has been top notch but they have also drawn against Zim and except Aus,England they have not beat other teams all the time at UAE.(Saffers,Lanka,Kiwis).

TBF no one is that great anymore and if Pak manages to draw in Aus in my personal opinion they deserve to be no.1 irrespective of rankings because of consistency away and home but the rankings might not show that.
 
Can't say its flawed but it can definitely improve , every team is good in home conditions and especially India and Australia are the monsters in home conditions and Pakistan too are pretty good in UAE. I give credit to srilanka and england currently to produce pitches(intentionally or unintentionally) which give chances to opposition as well. But the fact of the matter that test cricket needs to incorporate home and away factor in ranking system.
 
If drawing was only the criteria ,Kiwis have drawn in England and UAE.Pakistan is defn a very good test team and their away(England) performance has been top notch but they have also drawn against Zim and except Aus,England they have not beat other teams all the time at UAE.(Saffers,Lanka,Kiwis).

TBF no one is that great anymore and if Pak manages to draw in Aus in my personal opinion they deserve to be no.1 irrespective of rankings because of consistency away and home but the rankings might not show that.
I don't think Pakistans Zimbabwe draw figures in rankings anymore.
 
For those who want more points for away test wins, i would agree with that. But then losing or drawing a home test should lose you more points as well shouldn't it?
 
For those who want more points for away test wins, i would agree with that. But then losing or drawing a home test should lose you more points as well shouldn't it?

It should lose you same points as you would now so relatively you lose more points as the opposition team gains more points than before
 
Any time there is a scheduled pakistan v india series and india refuse to play pakistan should be award a whitewash series win when it comes to ranking points. I dont see much value on Indias number 1 ranking when they refuse to play the one team who are most likely to beat them both home and away.
 
Course it is, any system that doesnt have a specified fixed number of games for at least the top half sides is completely broken to begin with.
 
Any time there is a scheduled pakistan v india series and india refuse to play pakistan should be award a whitewash series win when it comes to ranking points. I dont see much value on Indias number 1 ranking when they refuse to play the one team who are most likely to beat them both home and away.


lol said like a true pak fan..I concur!!
 
India haven't done anything away but beat a declining Lanka team and the hapless Windies.
The rankings are 1)England 2) Aus 3) SA 4) PAK 5) NZ 6) India
 
For those who want more points for away test wins, i would agree with that. But then losing or drawing a home test should lose you more points as well shouldn't it?

Yes and No. If one of Australia, SA, Eng beat each other away it should not be much of a surprise as to losing to the Asian sides. A cynic will argue why winning a series in familiar conditions to home count. It should count so long as the home team is very strong and crushes everyone else.

Similar to India avoiding the one side capable of beating them home and away i.e. Pakistan. Both sides shouldn't lose points for beating each other home or away.
 
India haven't done anything away but beat a declining Lanka team and the hapless Windies.
The rankings are 1)England 2) Aus 3) SA 4) PAK 5) NZ 6) India

how is england so much higher than Pak when we spanked them in UAE and drew them in England all in the period of last 12 months :))
 
how is england so much higher than Pak when we spanked them in UAE and drew them in England all in the period of last 12 months :))

Possibly because the rankings actually count every game that is played and not only the ones that catch your fancy.

The rankings are objective, and not different from rankings in other sports like tennis. However, rained out games should not be counted as draws. If it were not for rained out games, India would have been comfortably ahead of other teams.

A batting lineup of Rahul/Vijay, Gambhir, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Rohit Ashwin, Saha, Jadeja will make any bowling attack cry. Maybe the first time in history that every one of the first 8 batsmen has a reasonable chance of scoring a century. India is by far the #1 team.
 
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Possibly because the rankings actually count every game that is played and not only the ones that catch your fancy.

The rankings are objective, and not different from rankings in other sports like tennis. However, rained out games should not be counted as draws. If it were not for rained out games, India would have been comfortably ahead of other teams.

A batting lineup of Rahul/Vijay, Gambhir, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Rohit Ashwin, Saha, Jadeja will make any bowling attack cry. Maybe the first time in history that every one of the first 8 batsmen has a reasonable chance of scoring a century. India is by far the #1 team.

:facepalm:

did you even bother to read my post and follow the conversation before you butted in and made yourself look stupid?
 
ICC rankings are BS.

We have a group of teams who are not much better than the other teams right now and there is no outright best team like it used to be in the past. England, Pakistan, Australia and India are all very close with each other imo. Pakistan and England are slightly better because of their away performances, but both have had bad tours as well (Pak in SA, Zim while Eng in UAE, WI). I'm inclined to rate Pak slightly better because eventhough Eng beat SA, it was a weak South African team and moreover Pakistan did well to draw in England given the differences in the conditions between UAE and England. India are a machine at home and Kohli has been racking up best ever win percentage as captain stats for India. But his test lies next year when the Indian team tours South Africa. Australia is very similar to India, will be interesting to see how they fare in their next tour to Asia or Ashes in England. South Africa have lost many of their seniors and they are a mixed bag for me (2 or 3 seniors but others being inexperienced). I will reserve my judgement on them until their tour of Australia. New Zealand are on the decline and need to step up while Sri Lanka aren't too different either (their whitewash against the hapless Aussies notwithstanding).

Still there is no an outright best team in the world with 130+ points like it used to be in the past.
 
Of course it's flawed. If more points are given to away test wins it'll right itself.

Why they don't fix this is beyond me.
 
India haven't done anything away but beat a declining Lanka team and the hapless Windies.
The rankings are 1)England 2) Aus 3) SA 4) PAK 5) NZ 6) India

Your ranking shows how biased you are against India. I wouldn't have said this if you have put india and pakistan at joint 2nd or 3rd though.
 
how is england so much higher than Pak when we spanked them in UAE and drew them in England all in the period of last 12 months :))

Good one Slog sahab. :inti First position should be vacant because no one deserves to hold that position when they reach there. Only 3 teams have dominated the number 1 position. West Indies before 90's, Australia from late 90's to 2010 and South Africa for 2-3 years.
 
India haven't done anything away but beat a declining Lanka team and the hapless Windies.
The rankings are 1)England 2) Aus 3) SA 4) PAK 5) NZ 6) India

SA are not 3 by an stretch of the imagination. They have lost at home to England and were thrashed in India. And before that they lost at home to OZ in early 2014. The only teams they have beaten in recent times are SL(away), NZ(home) and WI(home) . India have done comfortably better than that in the last 2.5 years.
 
It isn't flawed.

In current scenario, it's all about who is more monster at home than other because every team will lose abroad.

So you make a buffer. If you can create a buffer which will cover up a few abroad series, even if you goto 3rd position, you can regain back as you'll play at home. (and the top two will mostly play abroad)

India played played abroad for a while so it is Indias turn now. If india can create a buffer during the home season, it'll stay ahead of the pack.

In short period, it does look like flawed but it evens out ultimately.
 
The rankings should be something like this imo.

1.Pakistan(drew series in ENG,beat SL in SL.not lost at home in last two years)
2. OZ(Dominant at home,won 2 tests in England, won series in WI and NZ, lost to SL)
3.India(drew 2 tests in OZ, won in SL and WI, whitewashed no.1 team at home,whitewashed NZ at home)
4.England(won in SA,drew with NZ and PAK at home,beat OZ home,lost to PAK away and drew with WI away)
5. SAF( beat SL in SL,Wi at home,NZ at home but lost to ENG at home and got whitewashed in India)
6. NZ(drew with PAK away, drew with ENG away but then lost to OZ both home and away and now whitewashed in IND)
7. SL - only whitewashed OZ at home.
8. WI - Only drew with England at home. Lost everything else.

4 and 5 are interchangeable i suppose and SL will most likely go above NZ after NZ's home season this year.
 
The way the rankings are done for cricket is pretty standard, very similar to that for tennis, football etc.

You can make a case for giving more weight to away games, but I don't think it will make much of a difference. All teams do well at home. Sometimes a team does well abroad, but it doesn't really happen regularly enough to make a difference.
 
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The way the rankings are done for cricket is pretty standard, very similar to that for tennis, football etc.

You can make a case for giving more weight to away games, but I don't think it will make much of a difference. All teams do well at home. Sometimes a team does well abroad, but it doesn't really happen regularly enough to make a difference.

Cricket is not like football. Pitch and conditions matter a lot more especially in Test cricket.
 
The rankings should be something like this imo.

1.Pakistan(drew series in ENG,beat SL in SL.not lost at home in last two years)
2. OZ(Dominant at home,won 2 tests in England, won series in WI and NZ, lost to SL)
3.India(drew 2 tests in OZ, won in SL and WI, whitewashed no.1 team at home,whitewashed NZ at home)
4.England(won in SA,drew with NZ and PAK at home,beat OZ home,lost to PAK away and drew with WI away)
5. SAF( beat SL in SL,Wi at home,NZ at home but lost to ENG at home and got whitewashed in India)
6. NZ(drew with PAK away, drew with ENG away but then lost to OZ both home and away and now whitewashed in IND)
7. SL - only whitewashed OZ at home.
8. WI - Only drew with England at home. Lost everything else.

4 and 5 are interchangeable i suppose and SL will most likely go above NZ after NZ's home season this year.

The problem with your ranking is that based on your likes and dislikes, you are omitting series like Pakistan-New Zealand and Pakistan-Zimbabwe. Both these series happened in the 4 year window on which the rankings are based.

You are of course free to choose what you consider important, just like others are free to choose differently. However the ICC rankings are objective and do not change due to personal preferences.
 
The problem with your ranking is that based on your likes and dislikes, you are omitting series like Pakistan-New Zealand and Pakistan-Zimbabwe. Both these series happened in the 4 year window on which the rankings are based.

You are of course free to choose what you consider important, just like others are free to choose differently. However the ICC rankings are objective and do not change due to personal preferences.

i was only considering last two years actually. Approximately not exact. I have mentioned PAK-NZ series and PAK-Zimbabwe happened 3 years ago. The only mistake is i mentioned Sa win in Sl which happened a lil more than two years ago. So i guess NZ at 5 and SA at 6 should be OK as well. pakistan,Australia and India have been the most consistent teams in the last 2 years. England and NZ have had a mixed bag. SA have declined and SL and WI have been quite dreadful.
 
i was only considering last two years actually. Approximately not exact.

Do you have an objective reason for the time period you chose, or is it just something you believe is right?
 
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Do you have an objective reason for the time period you choose, or is it just something you believe is right?

Objectively, i think a four year period is too long to rate test teams. For eg. 4 years ago, Saffers were world no.1 with Kallis/Steyn/Philander/Smith/Amla/Ab all performing and at the top of their game. They have all declined or retired now. Why should SA be rated on the achievements of that team? Also, Pakistan got whitewashed in SA,drew in Zimbabwe and lost in SL not to mention they drew against both SA and Sl in the UAE. Those teams had Junaid,Ajmal etc. Why should their failures affect the achievements of Yasir,aamir,Sohail,Sami Aslam etc. ? A lot can happen in 4 years.
 
<b>Objectively, i think </b>a four year period is too long to rate test teams. For eg. 4 years ago, Saffers were world no.1 with Kallis/Steyn/Philander/Smith/Amla/Ab all performing and at the top of their game. They have all declined or retired now. Why should SA be rated on the achievements of that team? Also, Pakistan got whitewashed in SA,drew in Zimbabwe and lost in SL not to mention they drew against both SA and Sl in the UAE. Those teams had Junaid,Ajmal etc. Why should their failures affect the achievements of Yasir,aamir,Sohail,Sami Aslam etc. ? A lot can happen in 4 years.

When you write "I think", you should preface it with "Subjectively" rather than "Objectively".

The problem with having too short a time period is that results are affected by both noise and quality. If your data set is smaller then the influence of noise is larger.

The logic behind the 4 year period is probably that teams usually play each other twice in that period, once at home and once away.
 
Valid questions.

Actually now I see why you've put England #1.

If Pak manage to win or draw vs WI/NZ/Aus, we will be the most deserving #1 then?

Yeah definitely, a series draw in Australia is so rare. The last time i think a series was drawn was India 2004? IIRC. So that would be equivalent to a win, especially taking into account that Pakistan would blank Australia in the UAE.
 
Home is advantage and away is disadvantage for teams.

Rankings should give more points for winning away. Extending the same logic, It should also take away points if you don't do well at home.
 
If Pak manage to win or draw vs WI/NZ/Aus, we will be the most deserving #1 then?

If Pakistan wins or draw in Aus then without doubt Pakistan will be number one in my mind. But Pakistan should not have something like drawing a series against the likes of WI. That kind of results makes it difficult to rate any team very high. Doing well consistently counts when talking about deserving rank 1. I am not talking about any rating system here, just my opinion. In rating system one team will be always rank 1.
 
Home is advantage and away is disadvantage for teams.

Rankings should give more points for winning away. Extending the same logic, It should also take away points if you don't do well at home.

This is something i completely agree with. If winning away gives you more points, losing at home should lose you more points as well. After all home conditions do favour the home team.
 
SA are not 3 by an stretch of the imagination. They have lost at home to England and were thrashed in India. And before that they lost at home to OZ in early 2014. The only teams they have beaten in recent times are SL(away), NZ(home) and WI(home) . India have done comfortably better than that in the last 2.5 years.

We missed both Steyn and Philander against England, and had Van Zyl as opener
Probably missed him in India too, not that SA would have though. They've improved since.
I personally feel a fully fit SA side would compete better away than a fully fit Indian side.
India virtually have no bowling attack to speak of away from home.
Both teams would beat each other @home, it's how they'd do away for me.
1) Eng 2) Aus 3) SA 4) Pak
Pakistan and SA are interchangeable depending how they do in Australia.

PS: SA didn't get whitewashed in India which you've stated incorrectly below.
 
This is something i completely agree with. If winning away gives you more points, losing at home should lose you more points as well. After all home conditions do favour the home team.

So if you agree here then take a look at the last 4 years window. Starts punishing teams for not winning at home. Eng should lose lots of points for not winning against Pakistan. Pakistan failed to win series against many teams in UAE in this period so they will lose bunch of points.....

You get the drift. Obviously ranking system is not perfect at all right now, but it may not be as flawed as we are thinking. Awarding extra pints for away and punishing for doing not well at home may not produce too different outcome than current one. It won't be the same but it won't be too much different.
 
Home is advantage and away is disadvantage for teams.

Rankings should give more points for winning away. Extending the same logic, It should also take away points if you don't do well at home.

But what if the home side prepares good conditions and the away team thrives? And on the other side of the world a team doctors conditions to completely suit their own agenda? Isn't cricket going to the dogs with that route?
 
I'll give you guys a simple math formula - The only key factor should be that instead of series we go by points attained per test match. This formula is factored on the average number of games for any test playing nation so in hindsight BCCI and some lesser boards not wanting to adopt a two tier system makes much more sense now.

We start the rankings with a Four year cycle (from World Cup to World Cup). It is the most prestigious cricketing event hence it maps up perfectly for ICC or any other cricket governing body to implement this.

Lets say a World Cup ends on 31st May 20xx. On 1st June 20xx We calculate:

Total Number of Test Matches Played by All Test Teams / Total Teams = Average Number of Games Played by each team.

The average number of tests are the number of tests that would essentially be factored in when calculating the rankings. For example, average number of tests / World Cup Cycle = 11 games then for each country their last 11 games would be taken into account based on the points table below.

Away Win = 3 Points
Home Win = 2 Points
Away Draw = 2 Points
Home Draw = 1 Point
Away Loss = -1 Point
Home Loss = -2 Point

Wash Out / Bad Light / External Non Cricketing Reasons | @ Game < 200 Overs = No Points Recorded
Wash Out / Bad Light / External Non Cricketing Reasons | @ Game > 200 Overs = Match Drawn

On 1st June next year i.e. 20x1 the test championship mace would be given to the board leader that comes out on top of the rankings based on these simple metrics. The rankings are real time which means just like how in Football if you win a game and your points tally go up, in comparison to another team, you climb the ladder. Basically what I am trying to say here is that season ends on 31st May 20xx and whomsoever is #1 based on the above calculation is the winner.

Also after the 4 year World Cup to World Cup Cycle, relegation and promotion of the last team from tier 1 to tier 2 and vice versa would happen which would ensure that quality of the tier isn't reduced and there is competitiveness across the board.

To make sure this kind of a system works we need the following rules.

Rule #1) The average number of test played for the previous fiscal year, through which the rankings are calculated is a bare minimum that each country should play in the current year. Any country that cannot reach this goal will get a -5 point penalty per game x the number of games left to complete.

Rule #2) The average number of tests to achieve should be broken down into 2 quotas.

1st Quota - Home
2nd Quota - Away

If the average number of tests to achieve per World Cup Cycle is even - Then Home and Away matches to achieve will be equal
If the average number of tests to achieve per World Cup Cycle is odd - Then Away matches are one less than total home matches to achieve.

Rule #3) Standardized DRS System for all Matches - Complete use of technology with minimum human interference.

This particular system is not that difficult to understand, I used basic math principles to come up with this in less than 30 minutes. Practically speaking having this kind of metric calculations would make is far more easier and interesting for people to actually follow the game (Test Cricket i.e.)

However, such a system would only be applicable if there are two tiers and there is no influence from boards into the matter. ICC should govern and run this independently. Which means that even if Australia, SA, Eng Pak or Ind are relegated then you would grind the other 4 year cycle in the lesser tier before managing to jump back into tier 1.

I know this is wishful thinking and the goons at .......... will never allow this but when people say that such a system is complex etc etc then I guess there are only two possibilities.

1) Their opinion is biased due to some....reason
2) They gullible simpletons with pea sized brains.
 
We missed both Steyn and Philander against England, and had Van Zyl as opener
Probably missed him in India too, not that SA would have though. They've improved since.
I personally feel a fully fit SA side would compete better away than a fully fit Indian side.
India virtually have no bowling attack to speak of away from home.
Both teams would beat each other @home, it's how they'd do away for me.
1) Eng 2) Aus 3) SA 4) Pak
Pakistan and SA are interchangeable depending how they do in Australia.

PS: SA didn't get whitewashed in India which you've stated incorrectly below.

SA didn't get whitewashed in India because of rain - otherwise that match was a mere formality. Besides rankings should not take into account how it could've been had Steyn and Philander played. they were unfit and that's that. Both teams would beat each other at home but we won't get mauled in a 4 match test series in SA the way you lost here. Only if SA win in OZ would they be ahead of India at this point.
 
So if you agree here then take a look at the last 4 years window. Starts punishing teams for not winning at home. Eng should lose lots of points for not winning against Pakistan. Pakistan failed to win series against many teams in UAE in this period so they will lose bunch of points.....

You get the drift. Obviously ranking system is not perfect at all right now, but it may not be as flawed as we are thinking. Awarding extra pints for away and punishing for doing not well at home may not produce too different outcome than current one. It won't be the same but it won't be too much different.

I actually agree with that. England should lose points for not being dominant at home. OZ and India have been much more dominant at home and hence they shouldn't lose many points. Home test wins are underrated. SA should lose quite few points for losing to a lower ranked team like England at home. On the other hand if the current 6th ranked SA team were to tour India and beat the no.1 team in their own backyard, they should gain a lot.
 
NZ at 5 and India at 6?

lol...yeah right.

India competed far better in NZ than NZ did in India. Plus India can win in Asia and WI and somewhat fight in Aus.
 
Flawed? Absolutely. I agree with the view that away wins need to carry more weightage.

Biased? Hell no...The ranking logic is same for all teams and people are well advised not to burn when your rival team gets to the pinnacle EXACTLY the same way you had reached..
 
India/Pakistan (only way to settle this is to have 2 bilateral series, which won't happen)

England/Australia
South Africa

New Zealand
Sri Lanka

West Indies/Bangladesh
 
SA didn't get whitewashed in India because of rain - otherwise that match was a mere formality. Besides rankings should not take into account how it could've been had Steyn and Philander played. they were unfit and that's that. Both teams would beat each other at home but we won't get mauled in a 4 match test series in SA the way you lost here. Only if SA win in OZ would they be ahead of India at this point.

That's because we don't doctor our conditions, yet India have only won twice in SA and never won a series. Or do you think SA played on normal wickets in India?
If our conditions are similar to what they were against NZ i.e. proper SA wickets, then India will be lucky yo escape a whitewash next year.
 
Surprised to see so many PPers rating Australia so highly. Australia is the most pathetic team on spin tracks. Don't even put up a proper fight fgs. Got so bloody badly blanked by Pakistan, India and even lowly Sri Lanka and will get destroyed by even Bangladesh. Yes, dominant at home (although drew tests against India). Not a team I rate right now.
 
That's because we don't doctor our conditions, yet India have only won twice in SA and never won a series. Or do you think SA played on normal wickets in India?
If our conditions are similar to what they were against NZ i.e. proper SA wickets, then India will be lucky yo escape a whitewash next year.

Honestly the one condition I hate in South Africa are flat tracks. As an Indian fan, I would love India to face fast wickets in our next tour there. Sure, we may lose but that gives us the best chance of winning a series in South Africa. Our pacers become utterly impotent on flat tracks but they gain bite on wickets with venom. Whenever we have won test matches overseas, it is when our pacers have delivered. I mean, we won at WACA only due to the same reason. Our batting line up can collapse for all money, but I will any day trust a top 5 of Vijay, Rahul, Pujara, Kohli and Rahane to score runs on a fast wicket than Ishant, Umesh and Shami to pick wickets on a flat wicket.

Most Indian fans would say the same, they would love to face a green track than a flat track overseas.
 
That's because we don't doctor our conditions, yet India have only won twice in SA and never won a series. Or do you think SA played on normal wickets in India?
If our conditions are similar to what they were against NZ i.e. proper SA wickets, then India will be lucky yo escape a whitewash next year.

Doctored pitches? What did you expect in India? Green mambas with seam and bounce? And historically saffer teams have done well against India home and away. Who denied that? What was the point of bringing that up anyway? Point is SA have declined greatly in cricket and your golden generation is either retired or in decline? By the time we tour Steyn/Amla/AB won't even be playing by looking at the current state of affairs. I'd go so far as to say India have a good chance of winning their first test series in SA. In fact the SA tour of Australia should give us a better idea of where SA stand. I'm not sure you will even compete better than we did Down Under.
 
Surprised to see so many PPers rating Australia so highly. Australia is the most pathetic team on spin tracks. Don't even put up a proper fight fgs. Got so bloody badly blanked by Pakistan, India and even lowly Sri Lanka and will get destroyed by even Bangladesh. Yes, dominant at home (although drew tests against India). Not a team I rate right now.

They are poor on spin tracks but have dominated at home,beat SA in SA,NZ in NZ,WI in WI and competed in England. That's good enough to rate them i guess.
 
Flawed? Absolutely. I agree with the view that away wins need to carry more weightage.

Biased? Hell no...The ranking logic is same for all teams and people are well advised not to burn when your rival team gets to the pinnacle EXACTLY the same way you had reached..

Not sure how mathematical formulae can be biased.
 
But what if the home side prepares good conditions and the away team thrives? And on the other side of the world a team doctors conditions to completely suit their own agenda? Isn't cricket going to the dogs with that route?

So teams shouldn't use their home advantage and prepare "standard" tracks for everyone, fair enough. But then, why should teams get "extra points" for beating teams on standard tracks?

England beat India on turners, it should be rated very highly for that. Why should teams get extra points for beating teams on "standard tracks" if there is no significant home advantage?
 
Any time there is a scheduled pakistan v india series and india refuse to play pakistan should be award a whitewash series win when it comes to ranking points. I dont see much value on Indias number 1 ranking when they refuse to play the one team who are most likely to beat them both home and away.

What is this obsession of so many Pakistanis for playing India? You guys can have as many opinions you like..... cnsider yourselves no.1 as we refuse to play and what not..... but sometimes it feels like begging.

As much as fans we would like to play Pakistan, the decision is political and to be fair, noithing new. In the past as well we had 4-5 years without any Ind v Pak matches.

Personally I like pakistan team as being our desis brothers, I can relate to their cricket and culture as compared to some **** country like England, but lets face it. In our nations, politics trumps all. So learn to live with it. Its not as if not playing India will make Pakistan lose out on no.1 or anything.

PS: Even with so many Indian members here, hardly a few post all day long regarding India playing Pakistan. But as for the Pakistanis, as if its like a personal thing. Everyone "craves" to play India and beat us as if its a birth right.
 
What is this obsession of so many Pakistanis for playing India? You guys can have as many opinions you like..... cnsider yourselves no.1 as we refuse to play and what not..... but sometimes it feels like begging.

As much as fans we would like to play Pakistan, the decision is political and to be fair, noithing new. In the past as well we had 4-5 years without any Ind v Pak matches.

Personally I like pakistan team as being our desis brothers, I can relate to their cricket and culture as compared to some **** country like England, but lets face it. In our nations, politics trumps all. So learn to live with it. Its not as if not playing India will make Pakistan lose out on no.1 or anything.

PS: Even with so many Indian members here, hardly a few post all day long regarding India playing Pakistan. But as for the Pakistanis, as if its like a personal thing. Everyone "craves" to play India and beat us as if its a birth right.

hello...

I have a feeling that you only read posts that you like.

All sorts of opinions are expressed so dont generalize. You are posting on one of the best forums on the internet.
 
The rankings should be, put it simply be:

1) Away wins fetch you double the points as compared to home games. Exact opposite for the losses.

2) Instead of the current formulae, past years matches should have the following weightage..

upto 1 year- 100% weightage
upto 2 years- 75% weightage
upto 3 years- 50% weightage

3) Some tid bits like bonus points for whitewashes, etc.



But above all, the FTP should be more streamlinbes. Consider India's ftp. From 2013 to 2014 end, we had tours to SA, NZ, ENG, AUS. Suddenly only 2 away tours to SL/ WI from 2015 to late 2017.
 
hello...

I have a feeling that you only read posts that you like.

All sorts of opinions are expressed so dont generalize. You are posting on one of the best forums on the internet.

Actually not. As I posted, more Pakistanis than Indians. Even then I should be clear its my opinion. You don't have to agree at all. Anyway, that is not the point. As cricket fans, we can only hope that cricket is not affected by politics and all. But trust me, it never was free from it (be it England/ ZIM, Aus/ SA, etc) and will never be in the future.
 
I'll give you guys a simple math formula - The only key factor should be that instead of series we go by points attained per test match. This formula is factored on the average number of games for any test playing nation so in hindsight BCCI and some lesser boards not wanting to adopt a two tier system makes much more sense now.

We start the rankings with a Four year cycle (from World Cup to World Cup). It is the most prestigious cricketing event hence it maps up perfectly for ICC or any other cricket governing body to implement this.

Lets say a World Cup ends on 31st May 20xx. On 1st June 20xx We calculate:

Total Number of Test Matches Played by All Test Teams / Total Teams = Average Number of Games Played by each team.

The average number of tests are the number of tests that would essentially be factored in when calculating the rankings. For example, average number of tests / World Cup Cycle = 11 games then for each country their last 11 games would be taken into account based on the points table below.

Away Win = 3 Points
Home Win = 2 Points
Away Draw = 2 Points
Home Draw = 1 Point
Away Loss = -1 Point
Home Loss = -2 Point

Wash Out / Bad Light / External Non Cricketing Reasons | @ Game < 200 Overs = No Points Recorded
Wash Out / Bad Light / External Non Cricketing Reasons | @ Game > 200 Overs = Match Drawn

On 1st June next year i.e. 20x1 the test championship mace would be given to the board leader that comes out on top of the rankings based on these simple metrics. The rankings are real time which means just like how in Football if you win a game and your points tally go up, in comparison to another team, you climb the ladder. Basically what I am trying to say here is that season ends on 31st May 20xx and whomsoever is #1 based on the above calculation is the winner.

Also after the 4 year World Cup to World Cup Cycle, relegation and promotion of the last team from tier 1 to tier 2 and vice versa would happen which would ensure that quality of the tier isn't reduced and there is competitiveness across the board.

To make sure this kind of a system works we need the following rules.

Rule #1) The average number of test played for the previous fiscal year, through which the rankings are calculated is a bare minimum that each country should play in the current year. Any country that cannot reach this goal will get a -5 point penalty per game x the number of games left to complete.

Rule #2) The average number of tests to achieve should be broken down into 2 quotas.

1st Quota - Home
2nd Quota - Away

If the average number of tests to achieve per World Cup Cycle is even - Then Home and Away matches to achieve will be equal
If the average number of tests to achieve per World Cup Cycle is odd - Then Away matches are one less than total home matches to achieve.

Rule #3) Standardized DRS System for all Matches - Complete use of technology with minimum human interference.

This particular system is not that difficult to understand, I used basic math principles to come up with this in less than 30 minutes. Practically speaking having this kind of metric calculations would make is far more easier and interesting for people to actually follow the game (Test Cricket i.e.)

However, such a system would only be applicable if there are two tiers and there is no influence from boards into the matter. ICC should govern and run this independently. Which means that even if Australia, SA, Eng Pak or Ind are relegated then you would grind the other 4 year cycle in the lesser tier before managing to jump back into tier 1.

I know this is wishful thinking and the goons at .......... will never allow this but when people say that such a system is complex etc etc then I guess there are only two possibilities.

1) Their opinion is biased due to some....reason
2) They gullible simpletons with pea sized brains.

Somebody use this point award formula to measure to see what rankings come out today. Time period doesn't matter, 2-3-4 year period is fine.
 
Doctored pitches? What did you expect in India? Green mambas with seam and bounce? And historically saffer teams have done well against India home and away. Who denied that? What was the point of bringing that up anyway? Point is SA have declined greatly in cricket and your golden generation is either retired or in decline? By the time we tour Steyn/Amla/AB won't even be playing by looking at the current state of affairs. I'd go so far as to say India have a good chance of winning their first test series in SA. In fact the SA tour of Australia should give us a better idea of where SA stand. I'm not sure you will even compete better than we did Down Under.

i expected normal tracks, runs on the first two days and things to speed up on day 3. As per usual.
That was the most disappointing part, a declining side with newbies was dished some disgraceful pitches.
India came to SA for two Tests (young side), they were given a flat track in Jo'burg to settle and a slow turner in Durban.
I thought India would return the favour, not necessary spoon feed SA but sporting wickets. What i saw in India destroyed all the respect i had for team India, its management and curators. India have had frosty relations with the ECB & CA yet they've never played in such a disgrace before.
An apology would be nice to be honest.
 
i expected normal tracks, runs on the first two days and things to speed up on day 3. As per usual.
That was the most disappointing part, a declining side with newbies was dished some disgraceful pitches.
India came to SA for two Tests (young side), they were given a flat track in Jo'burg to settle and a slow turner in Durban.
I thought India would return the favour, not necessary spoon feed SA but sporting wickets. What i saw in India destroyed all the respect i had for team India, its management and curators. India have had frosty relations with the ECB & CA yet they've never played in such a disgrace before.
An apology would be nice to be honest.

An apology? :))) There was one bad wicket and that's it. The rest were normal Indian wickets. What happened in Bangalore on a good batting track while batting first? How did we decimate SA on a normal Kotla wicket in Delhi? SA were simply exposed. Nothing more nothing less. BCCI cannot issue apologies to CSA because their batsmen were found wanting against spin. Anyway like i said we will see how SA fare on the flat motorways of OZ and in England next year. That will give us a better idea of where you stand.
 
i expected normal tracks, runs on the first two days and things to speed up on day 3. As per usual.
That was the most disappointing part, a declining side with newbies was dished some disgraceful pitches.
India came to SA for two Tests (young side), they were given a flat track in Jo'burg to settle and a slow turner in Durban.
I thought India would return the favour, not necessary spoon feed SA but sporting wickets. What i saw in India destroyed all the respect i had for team India, its management and curators. India have had frosty relations with the ECB & CA yet they've never played in such a disgrace before.
An apology would be nice to be honest.

Here's is your apology,

Sorry SA cricket and soso that pitches were turning and we didn't return the favor. Please tour us again.
 
They were experimenting last series and then came up with the current tracks which are slow and assist spinners but at the same time not square turners

These are the wickets I would believe India would lay down from now on
 
But what if the home side prepares good conditions and the away team thrives? And on the other side of the world a team doctors conditions to completely suit their own agenda? Isn't cricket going to the dogs with that route?

It's simply impossible for any ranking system to take account of variables like SA giving sporting pitches to pretty much all teams and others not reciprocating. Any system will be not perfect, but I think gaining due to doing well away and losing due to not doing well at home makes sense from mathematical point of view. It won't be perfect and you are right about all home teams trying to win at all costs may make pretty bad.
 
So teams shouldn't use their home advantage and prepare "standard" tracks for everyone, fair enough. But then, why should teams get "extra points" for beating teams on standard tracks?

England beat India on turners, it should be rated very highly for that. Why should teams get extra points for beating teams on "standard tracks" if there is no significant home advantage?

I'm not saying anyone should get extra points for normal tracks. Home advantage can be used, but it must not be taken too far. That's my point.
One can't say England drew a series in England while India beat SA in India which indicates 'dominance'. They were different set of circumstances.
 
An apology? :))) There was one bad wicket and that's it. The rest were normal Indian wickets. What happened in Bangalore on a good batting track while batting first? How did we decimate SA on a normal Kotla wicket in Delhi? SA were simply exposed. Nothing more nothing less. BCCI cannot issue apologies to CSA because their batsmen were found wanting against spin. Anyway like i said we will see how SA fare on the flat motorways of OZ and in England next year. That will give us a better idea of where you stand.

This.

Only one was a rank turner. The rest were good batting tracks. SA still crumbled. Even Indian batsmen crumbled.

The inability of both SA and Indians to play spin was exposed.
 
Absolutely! It is flawed . .

ICC has to come up with a way where teams winning away from home get more points . .
All teams are winning at home . .

In an age where winning away has become so much harder, teams taht do well abroad surely needs to be rewarded!

P.S. Even football has an away goal concept . .
 
i expected normal tracks, runs on the first two days and things to speed up on day 3. As per usual.
That was the most disappointing part, a declining side with newbies was dished some disgraceful pitches.
India came to SA for two Tests (young side), they were given a flat track in Jo'burg to settle and a slow turner in Durban.
I thought India would return the favour, not necessary spoon feed SA but sporting wickets. What i saw in India destroyed all the respect i had for team India, its management and curators. India have had frosty relations with the ECB & CA yet they've never played in such a disgrace before.
An apology would be nice to be honest.

The only reason SA had rolled out flat wickets was due to the huge amount of cash they would earn against India. While BCCI don't care if a Test lasts for 3 days or 5 whole days.
 
An apology? :))) There was one bad wicket and that's it. The rest were normal Indian wickets. What happened in Bangalore on a good batting track while batting first? How did we decimate SA on a normal Kotla wicket in Delhi? SA were simply exposed. Nothing more nothing less. BCCI cannot issue apologies to CSA because their batsmen were found wanting against spin. Anyway like i said we will see how SA fare on the flat motorways of OZ and in England next year. That will give us a better idea of where you stand.

LOL, i doubt you typed that with a straight face.
Like i said already, the Bangalore Test wasn't completed. It's pointless to make a reference of it. In Mohali India were 60/1 and fell like a deck of cards after. We can only speculate as to what India would have posted, and what the par total was.
At the end of the day series averages speak for themselves. Only one player registered a hundred in that series. Only one averaged above 40.

Our spinners wouldn't even make a Ranji 2nd XI, never mind the first team. That's how poor those conditions were, making our spinners look like world beaters.
 
Lol nobody and I mean nobody thinks that the system is perfect and doesn't have flaws. If they do they need to re evaluate their life.

Though the only thing is that it's the same for everyone

Ofcourse the rankings have a bunch of flaws

The major one is that there is no difference between home and away series and they all have the same value. Whereas anyone who knows cricket knows that's not the case

Pakistans 2-0 win in UAE does not compare in achievement to Pakistan's 2-2 draw in England. But in this ranking system the UAE win fetches more points

Similarly India's 3-0 win over NZ yields it the same number of points as it would have if India had beaten NZ 3-0 in NZ.

Let's look at it this way. If Pakistan manage to draw the series in Aus it will be a historic achievement and atleast for me mean that Pak is the best team currently regardless of what rankings say. But in the rankin table Pakistan may actually lose points.

POTW

Great little breakdown by Slogy Bhai, I like these posts. They provide some decent insight but get brushed aside in favour of random incoherent psychobabble which brain-washes the masses with the big word count.
 
They are poor on spin tracks but have dominated at home,beat SA in SA,NZ in NZ,WI in WI and competed in England. That's good enough to rate them i guess.

Australia are like any other top team, tigers at home not great abroad.

I can't believe the amount of complaining (not your post Nikhil) about playing at home, Indian pitches etc. etc. What about rained out matches? If it wasn't for rain, India would have won a game against Bang, and 2 against WI that cost it a large number of points (as these were counted as draws against low ranked teams).

There are lots of reasons to be dissatisfied with the rankings, I can't believe the number of posts which keep harping on a particular set of reasons.

India is ranked #1, deal with it. Don't like it? Then beat India on the field and take the ranking away from it. All this complaining isn't going to change that fact or the current residence of the mace.
 
Australia are like any other top team, tigers at home not great abroad.

I can't believe the amount of complaining (not your post Nikhil) about playing at home, Indian pitches etc. etc. What about rained out matches? If it wasn't for rain, India would have won a game against Bang, and 2 against WI that cost it a large number of points (as these were counted as draws against low ranked teams).

There are lots of reasons to be dissatisfied with the rankings, I can't believe the number of posts which keep harping on a particular set of reasons.

India is ranked #1, deal with it. Don't like it? Then beat India on the field and take the ranking away from it. All this complaining isn't going to change that fact or the current residence of the mace.

And while we are at it, what about umpire errors that cost India a couple of matches. As Sidharth Monga wrote "It is noteworthy that under Kohli's captaincy India have been at the receiving end of calls that could have been reversed easily under DRS in two Tests where the said decisions made a big difference. India ended up losing those two Tests - Adelaide in 2014-15 and Galle in 2015. In the Adelaide chase, where India came close to beating Australia, Shikhar Dhawan and Ajinkya Rahane were sent back when DRS would have recalled them. In Galle, Sri Lanka mounted an incredible comeback in the second innings, but both their heroes, Dinesh Chandimal and Lahiru Thirimanne, would have been out in single figures had DRS been there."

Maybe umpire errors should be factored into the rankings too. With no rain and no umpire errors, India would be right now at around a rating of 125 instead of 115, and rated as not only a #1 team, but a top team for the ages.

The point is that you can't celebrate the rankings when it suits you, and then complain about it when you lose it. The rankings are flawed, but not only in the way that suits you.

The rankings are real life. You can change real life to what you want it to be by performing in real life, or you can spend your life complaining about the unfairness of real life.
 
Rankings are just a indicator and should be seen as such.

As slog says if Pak manage to draw a series in Australia they will potentially lose points which is just absurd.
 
Objectively speaking, its flawed.

Why?

Cos it does not consider home and away series.

So there is no "heart of hearts" situations. It is flawed.

Just our turn to enjoy it now cos it has been the same flawed for everyone and same flawed even during our overseas cycle when others gained points while we had to go on tough tours.

So might as well cherish the rankings now.

And comparison wise, I do think Pakistan is the better test side cos away series performance counts for more.

But we ain't giving back the number one till end of 2017. :bm

SIF I agree with you most of the time but not on this. if ranking system is adjusted by giving weighted points to home/away matches, lost matches at home should cost more -ve points, because usually winning team gains same points which losing team gets in -ve. if ranking are calculated this way it will again give India at top, as India is so dominant at home that the rarely lose any thing.
here is an sample of adjusted ranking system
win away = +1.5
win home = +1
draw home = .25
draw away = .75
lost away = -1
lost home = -1.5

by using this method of weighted points let's see what India gets based on last 2 years performance I.e from 12 Oct 2014 onwards.(- minnows I.e WI ban and Zim)

India in Aus 0-2(2 draws) points = -0.5
(-2 for two lost matches and +1.5 for two draws away)
India in sri Lanka 2-1, points = 2
(3 for away two wins -1 for away defeat)
NZ in India 0-3, points = 3
SA in India 0-3(1 draw), points = +3.25

total points = 8.75 in 14 matches
net average = 8.75/14 = 0.625


when same thing done with England

Aus in Eng 2-3, points = O
(+3 for won matches -3 for lost two home matches)

Eng in SA 2-1 points = 2
(+3 for won away matches and -1 for defeat)

SL in Eng 0-2(1 draw) points = 2.25
(.25 for home draw and +2 for wins)

Pak in Eng 2-2, points = -1
(+2 for wins, -3 for defeats)

NZ in Eng 1-1, points = -0.5
(-1.5 for defeat and +1 for victory)

Eng in u.a.e 0-2(1 draw) points= -1.25
(-2 for away defeat, +.75 for draw)

total= 1.5 in 21 matches
net average = .071

for Pakistan

Aus in U.A.E 0-2, points: +2

Pak in SL 2-1, points: 2
(+3 for wins, -1 for defeat)

Pak vs Eng in UAE 2-0 (1 draw) points: 2.25
(.25 for draw, 2 for wins)

Pak in Eng 2-2 points : +1
(+3 for wins,-2 for defeat)

Pak vs NZ in UAE 1-1 (draw 1) points : -.25
(+1 for win, -1.5 for defeat and +.25 for draw)

total = 7 in 15 matches
net average = 0.466


so
India = 0.625
pak= 0.466
Eng = 0.071

this happens because India rarely lose at home whereas Eng and Pak might have few wins abroad and gain some more points, but they lose/draw too at home, which should cost as much.
many people will never be satisfied with ranking system, generally because there team is not at top.
if ICC introduce away/home weighted points, and by chance India goes to Sri Lanka and win some good points same people will raise their eyebrows and say weight points should only be used when away from continent not just away from home.
 
Of course it is. Pakistan can win in New Zealand and draw against Australia but they still won't be #1 if India manages to pummel England in the upcoming series on their awful, doctored pitches.

Away series wins need to be given more points than home series wins otherwise teams can go on a stretch of two years just playing at home and racking up the points, and their deluded supporters will call them the best in the world.
 
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