The “Bhuvneshwar Kumar 2.0 in ODIs” myth

[babajee]

I keep hearing from fellow PPers how Bhuvneshwar Kumar is some changed bowler, how he has added pace and variations such as knuckleball etc etc.

Actually since his return in 2017, he averages a grand 38.33 in ODIs at an economy of 5.20.

Is this a transformed bowler? Things get even more dirty when his performances against minnows are taken out.

Against Aus, Eng, NZ and SA he averages 44.13 at an economy of 5.67 since 2017.

Is this a world class bowler?

What is all the hype over? I am only interested in ODIs here as his test stats are inflated.

 

[OoparCut]

I am only interested in ODIs here as his test stats are inflated.

How did his test stats get inflated? With a hand pump?

If you are curious to see "what the hype is about", maybe you should watch him bowl with the white ball instead of reading scorecards and statistics. Might begin to understand.

 

[Proactive_]

He's a garbage ODI bowler. Don't think this has ever been disputed (you never know with some Indian fans though). He's a decent bowling all rounder in Tests and that's it.

 

[babajee]

How did his test stats get inflated? With a hand pump?

If you are curious to see "what the hype is about", maybe you should watch him bowl with the white ball instead of reading scorecards and statistics. Might begin to understand.

He’s been played on a horses for courses basis.

 

[OoparCut]

He’s been played on a horses for courses basis.

Do all players who get played on such a "basis" end up with such stats? How about the other bowlers who played on "those courses" - from both teams. Why is it that he's the only horse that runs buck wild on those courses?

Again, you can stick to scorecards and statistics for the sake of argument. Actual fans base their opinions about players on watching them perform.

Btw, in the most recent T20I played between SA and India, on a ground with a history of stratospheric scores, thanks to the high altitude in part - Bhuvi somehow horsed his way to a 5-fer.

For some, he's a "garbage" bowler. For others, he's quality. Its up to you what opinion you form, and based on what.

 

[babajee]

Do all players who get played on such a "basis" end up with such stats? How about the other bowlers who played on "those courses" - from both teams. Why is it that he's the only horse that runs buck wild on those courses?

I admit, he’s a master in swinging conditions. However this thread is about ODIs. Bhuvi isn’t even a regular in the test team.

 

[Sam99]

I admit, he’s a master in swinging conditions. However this thread is about ODIs. Bhuvi isn’t even a regular in the test team.

Bhuvi can swing any new ball in most condition but these 2 new ball rule doesn't apply him good as these ball don't swing alot so he has to depend on condition to get wickets in odis or his variety in the end overs.

 

[troodon]

BK is a good ODI bowler. He keeps it under 6 RPO and that too he bowls with new ball field restrictions and at the death.

Any bowler who keeps it under 60 runs in 10 overs is a very good bowler in this era of flat surfaces.

Granted he does not get many wickets in ODI's and hence his average of 38. If you see him bowl, the variations he uses, he is a pretty awesome bowler.

Now whether to choose shami or BK is a different story. Shami is brittle. His fitness is not good. India needs Shami in Tests. Hence BK is chosen who can keep it economical.

Also, we don't need a bunch of wickets from our openers. If BK and Bumrah combined can get 1 or 2 wickets and keep the scoring low, our Spinners can come in a apply the choke on the opposition. India has 2 world class spinners at their disposal in ODI's and T20's.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Rubbish ODI bowler, doesn't warrant threads made on him.

 

[CricFan2012]

BK is a good ODI bowler. He keeps it under 6 RPO and that too he bowls with new ball field restrictions and at the death.

Any bowler who keeps it under 60 runs in 10 overs is a very good bowler in this era of flat surfaces.

Granted he does not get many wickets in ODI's and hence his average of 38. If you see him bowl, the variations he uses, he is a pretty awesome bowler.

Now whether to choose shami or BK is a different story. Shami is brittle. His fitness is not good. India needs Shami in Tests. Hence BK is chosen who can keep it economical.

Also, we don't need a bunch of wickets from our openers. If BK and Bumrah combined can get 1 or 2 wickets and keep the scoring low, our Spinners can come in a apply the choke on the opposition. India has 2 world class spinners at their disposal in ODI's and T20's.

Very good bowlers in this flat era is anyone who keeps it below 50 in their 10 while picking up wickets

 

[JaDed]

He's a garbage ODI bowler. Don't think this has ever been disputed (you never know with some Indian fans though). He's a decent bowling all rounder in Tests and that's it.

And who is better in Asia than Bhuvi in tests?

 

[JaDed]

Mods please change the title to ODI ,seems to be confusion here.So I'm guessing you are talking about myth as ODI 2.0.

 

[giri26]

Bhuvneshwar is a decent ODI bowler but a very good test bowler. He will be key for India in England later this year. He could pick little more wickets in ODI's though. When he started he was a wicket taker and he once averaged in low 20's if I remember. He is still good enough for the Indian ODI side though and does what is required of him.

 

[Abdul]

Better than Amir.

 

[dhonixi]

He is better than Amir 2.0, who is garbage in every country barring England.

 

[dauntless]

Why so many threads on this poor bowler. We all know he is poor odi bowler and not any better in tests.His average is better in tests due to playing on selective pitches.

 

[Titan24]

And who is better in Asia than Bhuvi in tests?

He cant be said the best at all, you should be un droppable in any match irrespective of the conditions to be considered a regular let alone best.

India’s best test bowler in my opinion is Shami.

 

[Titan24]

He is better than Amir 2.0, who is garbage in every country barring England.

If only he could have given Amir like performance in the final of the CT 17.

 

[Titan24]

Better than Amir.

Amir’s economy and average is still better then many around let alone Bhuvi with poor stats. Amir is even better with the bat in ODIs.

Recently got Man of the series in T20s against NZ.

 

[The_Odd_One]

He is better than Amir 2.0, who is garbage in every country barring England.

Aamir averages 32 since his comeback as compared to Bhuvi's 38.

 

[JaDed]

He cant be said the best at all, you should be un droppable in any match irrespective of the conditions to be considered a regular let alone best.

India’s best test bowler in my opinion is Shami.

? Indian team dropped Rahane as well,who is one of our top performers overseas,only Captain is safe in Indian team.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Very poor ODI bowler.

But Kohli will select him in ODIs basis his tests and T20Is exploits, the way he selects Rahane in ODIs and sometimes even T20s (Good lord) and drops him in tests or selects Rohit in tests in SA. To put it mildly, Kohli isn’t the best when it comes to selections.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Bhuvi and Amir in ODIs is not even a competition.
Bumrah = Hasan > Amir = Shami

Rest are not good enough to get a mention. Wahab is the worst ODI bowler to come out of the subcontinent in the last few years.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Bhuvi is a bad odi bowler, he should be replaced by shami who is a wicket taking option. Shami has taken 91 wickets in 50 matches and averages 25 we are wasting him.Bhuvi is good for tests and t20s.

 

[BlackShadow]

I keep hearing from fellow PPers how Bhuvneshwar Kumar is some changed bowler, how he has added pace and variations such as knuckleball etc etc.

Actually since his return in 2017, he averages a grand 38.33 in ODIs at an economy of 5.20.

Is this a transformed bowler? Things get even more dirty when his performances against minnows are taken out.

Against Aus, Eng, NZ and SA he averages 44.13 at an economy of 5.67 since 2017.

Is this a world class bowler?

What is all the hype over? I am only interested in ODIs here as his test stats are inflated.

How do you inflate Test stats? Forward that tip to some Pakistani bowlers so that they can finally average under 30.

 

[BreadPakoda]

How do you inflate Test stats? Forward that tip to some Pakistani bowlers so that they can finally average under 30.

Bhuvi averages low in tests because he gets to bowl on bowler friendly wickets. India also gets custom-made batting friendly pitches when they tour overseas and has flat pattas/or spin paradise (chose as per your convenience) at home. I see that this conundrum is driving certain people crazy.

 

[babajee]

How do you inflate Test stats? Forward that tip to some Pakistani bowlers so that they can finally average under 30.

You know your team better than I do. Shami and Umesh are preferred over him in the subcontinent.

 

[Proactive_]

And who is better in Asia than Bhuvi in tests?

Shami and I'd say even Bumrah.

 

[big_gamer007]

Bhuvi is one of the best bowlers in the world in favourable conditions.. He can swing the ball miles and give any batsman a run for his money..

We need to play him in those conditions where he will wreck havoc no point wasting him on flat pitches..

Regards to ODI I don’t think anyone said he’s the best bowler or something maybe one or two Indian fans might have said but this OP shows how Pakistanis here are quick to make threads and deride players.. He’s an ok bowler in ODI better can bowl yorkers at the death overs and save 10 odd runs where some other bowler might struggle and give away few extra boundaries..

 

[BreadPakoda]

You know your team better than I do. Shami and Umesh are preferred over him in the subcontinent.

Bhuvi’s home and away test averages are both 26. You make no sense at all.

 

[babajee]

Bhuvi’s home and away test averages are both 26. You make no sense at all.

Yeah. Because he’s played on raging seamers like the one at Eden Gardens vs SL.

You tell me why during India’s home season in 2016/17 Bhuvi only played 1 test?

 

[OneTip-OneHand]

Dont think anyone claims him to be a world class bowler. However Bhuvi-Bumrah-Kuldeep-Chahal-Pandya combination is working fine for India. Shami needs to work on his fitness. As a bowling unit they win us matches and we are fine with it. Don’t need Supestarrrrr Superphassst bowlers.

And yes, please dont bring CT final again please I know Pakistan won fair and square and but bragging about it till eternity is getting stupid now.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Yeah. Because he’s played on raging seamers like the one at Eden Gardens vs SL.

You tell me why during India’s home season in 2016/17 Bhuvi only played 1 test?

Kohli’s selection blunders. I guess a lot of people of already made it clear to you but cant help it if you don’t want to acknowledge.
Most have also accepted Bhuvi’s ODI shortcomings but you clearly have an agenda.

 

[King Kong]

He's way overrated on ODIs. But very useful in tests and T20s.

 

[JaDed]

Shami and I'd say even Bumrah.

One doesn't remain fit and other just has started out.

 

[IndianMafia]

Seems more of a containing bowler in odi. He is a gun bowler in T20 though

 

[Sam99]

Seems more of a containing bowler in odi. He is a gun bowler in T20 though

good in t20 because if you try to attack him there is more chance that he will get wickets. If you play him carefully he isn't thread in odis at all.

 

[troodon]

good in t20 because if you try to attack him there is more chance that he will get wickets. If you play him carefully he isn't thread in odis at all.

If he can keep it under 60 runs everytime he comes out to bowl, he will be worth his weight in Gold.

BK is a huge upgrade over the Ishant's, Dinda's that we tried in the last 5-10 yrs. He may not get wickets, but he puts pressure on batsmen in the first 10 overs to up the runrate. It makes it easy for Bumrah and the spinners that bowl after 10 overs to pick up wickets.

BK is also a very safe fielder and pretty quick in the outfield. BK is in the team for a reason.

BK is a gun bowler in Tests and T20's. In ODI's, he is just a containing bowler. Gone are the days when teams used to score over 300 against Indian attack everytime. The days, Indian bowling most of the times keeps the opposition to under 250 most of the times. Making it easy for our Top 3 batsmen to chase it more often than not.

 

[BreadPakoda]

If he can keep it under 60 runs everytime he comes out to bowl, he will be worth his weight in Gold.

BK is a huge upgrade over the Ishant's, Dinda's that we tried in the last 5-10 yrs. He may not get wickets, but he puts pressure on batsmen in the first 10 overs to up the runrate. It makes it easy for Bumrah and the spinners that bowl after 10 overs to pick up wickets.

BK is also a very safe fielder and pretty quick in the outfield. BK is in the team for a reason.

BK is a gun bowler in Tests and T20's. In ODI's, he is just a containing bowler. Gone are the days when teams used to score over 300 against Indian attack everytime. The days, Indian bowling most of the times keeps the opposition to under 250 most of the times. Making it easy for our Top 3 batsmen to chase it more often than not.

IIRC he got hit for 100+ in an ODI against South Africa in late 2015. I know its been more than 2 years but that was after he had made big improvements to his bowling. He’s got an atrocious average, fairly decent economy but bowls too many hit me deliveries in the initial overs. Sorry, Bhuvi doesn’t add much as a container to get the leeway of not taking any wickets.
A 10-0-50-1 for a front line pacer doesn’t add much value.

 

[troodon]

IIRC he got hit for 100+ in an ODI against South Africa in late 2015. I know its been more than 2 years but that was after he had made big improvements to his bowling. He’s got an atrocious average, fairly decent economy but bowls too many hit me deliveries in the initial overs. Sorry, Bhuvi doesn’t add much as a container to get the leeway of not taking any wickets.
A 10-0-50-1 for a front line pacer doesn’t add much value.

BK pitches up the ball to see if there is any swing in the offering. In the process he may get hit for a few boundaries.

Overall, he keeps the run rate under 5 in his initial spell most of the times. He gets hit a bit at the death when batsmen are attacking. But that is expected and in his 10 overs he gives away about 50-60 runs. A massive upgrade for Indian bowling standards we have been seeing ever since the beginning of time.

 

[Hasan123]

In LO he should bowl at the start and the end of the innings. He has a good yorker and is intelligent enough to adapt his lengths at the end of the innings. Whilst with new ball he knows what areas to bowl and causes batsmen problems. I wouldn't bowl him in the middle period as he doesn't have the pace and variety to trouble batsmen.

I rate him highly . He's done a good job in all formats for India. His best is yet to come. Needs to get that average down in ODIs though.

 

[Sam99]

IIRC he got hit for 100+ in an ODI against South Africa in late 2015. I know its been more than 2 years but that was after he had made big improvements to his bowling. He’s got an atrocious average, fairly decent economy but bowls too many hit me deliveries in the initial overs. Sorry, Bhuvi doesn’t add much as a container to get the leeway of not taking any wickets.
A 10-0-50-1 for a front line pacer doesn’t add much value.

He recently got hit for 90+ runs in an odi series vs New Zealand (2017)

 

[rhony]

The dude bowls in the opening overs and during death and has an econ. rate under 6. That's gold in ODIs. He is a good fielder, modest, team man and can hang around with the bat if needed. I think he is the third most valuable player for India in ODIs after Kohli, Dhawan.

 

[rhony]

Also, he has a very good record in IPL on the flattest of pitches

 

[IAJ]

I really like his attitude, seems like a humble guy, and has good economy rate in ODIs.

 

[babajee]

[MENTION=139716]HuzaifaE[/MENTION]

We are now in the realm of pure delusion

 

[HuzaifaE]

[MENTION=139716]HuzaifaE[/MENTION]

We are now in the realm of pure delusion

1. I didn't claim Bhuvi is Bumrah

2. I said he's better than Wahab which he is

3. You're not giving his good economy and death bowling nearly enough credit

 

[babajee]

1. I didn't claim Bhuvi is Bumrah

2. I said he's better than Wahab which he is

3. You're not giving his good economy and death bowling nearly enough credit

Yeah the economy and death bowling is world class against minnows.

 

[Rishta Aunty]

He's becoming a completely containing bowler in ODI's; his IPL game has completely seeped into how he bowls in ODI cricket as well. And that just means that his wicket/game numbers have plumetted, with defensive bowling being his forte. Yes, his economy is wonderful in context, but it's not everything.

I actually rate him pretty highly; he's got a classical action, can swing the ball around corners and has pumped his pace up to the mid-130's. But the Indian pitches will be the death of him.

Not just him actually, all the upcoming Indian fast bowlers have this problem. Only the U-19 team doesn't seem to, but soon enough the bad habits will seep into them. When you keep bowling slow-cutters and your golden delivery becomes a knuckle ball, what is the point? None of Thakur, Siraj or Unadkar look like they will EVER be test bowlers. You need fast out/in-swingers in tests, not cutters. A proper bouncer towards the chin, not towards first-slip. An actual yorker, not a slow loopy yorker. When the batsman doesn't need to go hard, then your skillset goes into the bin and you get exposed for what you are: A trundler with some tricks.

That's why I still rate someone like Umesh Yadav and Shami. Though the might be scattergun, their fast-bowling fundamentals are very strong. That's where India should be investing, especially if they want to win test matches abroad.

 

[rhony]

He's becoming a completely containing bowler in ODI's; his IPL game has completely seeped into how he bowls in ODI cricket as well. And that just means that his wicket/game numbers have plumetted, with defensive bowling being his forte. Yes, his economy is wonderful in context, but it's not everything.

I actually rate him pretty highly; he's got a classical action, can swing the ball around corners and has pumped his pace up to the mid-130's. But the Indian pitches will be the death of him.

Not just him actually, all the upcoming Indian fast bowlers have this problem. Only the U-19 team doesn't seem to, but soon enough the bad habits will seep into them. When you keep bowling slow-cutters and your golden delivery becomes a knuckle ball, what is the point? None of Thakur, Siraj or Unadkar look like they will EVER be test bowlers. You need fast out/in-swingers in tests, not cutters. A proper bouncer towards the chin, not towards first-slip. An actual yorker, not a slow loopy yorker. When the batsman doesn't need to go hard, then your skillset goes into the bin and you get exposed for what you are: A trundler with some tricks.

That's why I still rate someone like Umesh Yadav and Shami. Though the might be scattergun, their fast-bowling fundamentals are very strong. That's where India should be investing, especially if they want to win test matches abroad.

He has been underperforming in ODIs. However, he has been very effective in T20s and Tests. In tests he is the 2nd most valuable player after Kohli in the team. Takes early wickets and can contribute with the bat

 

[Rishta Aunty]

He has been underperforming in ODIs. However, he has been very effective in T20s and Tests. In tests he is the 2nd most valuable player after Kohli in the team. Takes early wickets and can contribute with the bat

Well in Tests he only plays if the conditions are conducive to some lateral movement, so that's a disingenuous statement. If you go condition-specific, in any sub-continent style conditions, Ashwin is the most important player in your Test team by a country mile. I still rate Bhuvneshwar though, but rate Shami higher overall as a bowler. Shami isn't a T20 bowler at all though.

 

[babajee]

Well in Tests he only plays if the conditions are conducive to some lateral movement, so that's a disingenuous statement.

Shukar hai.

Finally someone else acknowledges this. I’ve been banging on about it for ages

 

[Rishta Aunty]

Shukar hai.

Finally someone else acknowledges this. I’ve been banging on about it for ages

Well if you take off your tinted glasses you can see that to be true. And the thing is, I think this horses-for-courses approach is a great step forward; it helps prevent burn out from over-bowling, keeps a healthy competition, and get's the best out of all the bowlers. If the wicket is dusty or has extra bounce, Ishant should be playing instead of him with Umesh in the team as well.

Pakistan should look at doing the same with Amir to be honest. I know that's a controversial opinion, but I feel that would be the right way to manage his workload and get the best out of him.

 

[babajee]

Well if you take off your tinted glasses you can see that to be true. And the thing is, I think this horses-for-courses approach is a great step forward; it helps prevent burn out from over-bowling, keeps a healthy competition, and get's the best out of all the bowlers. If the wicket is dusty or has extra bounce, Ishant should be playing instead of him with Umesh in the team as well.

Pakistan should look at doing the same with Amir to be honest. I know that's a controversial opinion, but I feel that would be the right way to manage his workload and get the best out of him.

Absolutely. No point wasting Amir, and even Hasan in UAE if the pitches are gonna be slow and dead. They don’t have the height or the express pace to succeed there.