The Champions Trophy victory was NOT a fluke

[Mamoon]

More than anything, I think people have taken offense to the word fluke. Well it is just a convenient word used to describe our title winning CT, but it can be explained in other ways and other words.

To put it simply, in the CT, what could have gone right for Pakistan went right, and what could have gone wrong for the opposition went wrong. We had our fair share of luck throughout the tournament and there were plenty of moments that could have easily swung the other way.

We would probably have chased the South African total down, but it was heading towards a jittery finish. We were finding it hard to score fluently and we have seen our batting lineup bolt many chases from a similar situation. However, I will cut the team some slack because Morkel was the only bowler who threatened us till that point, and heh had only three overs left.

The Sri Lankan chase was a total shambles, and was a proper get out of jail moment for us. We were poor, but Sri Lanka were simply atrocious. Those dropped catches definitely did huge favors for us and those were suggesting that the likes of Hasan etc. would have seen us home are forgetting that almost all our batsmen crumbled under pressure.

Amir was unusually calm under pressure especially for a tail-ender, but it doesn't mean that the others would have been composed as well, especially someone like Hasan who likes to go for slogs regardless of the situation.

In the semifinal, the slow Cardiff pitch played right into our hands. England had been the best team throughout the tournament and their batsmen could not adjust to the sluggish Cardiff pitch. At The Oval or Edgbaston, they would probably have beaten us.

In the final, again, what could go right for us went right. Every inside edge seemed to miss the stumps and our running was shambolic in the first 10 overs but somehow they didn't run themselves out. The no-ball was of course a pivotal moment and it could have changed the complexion of the game.

Fakhar's counter-attacking batting - especially after Azhar's dismissal - put the Indian bowlers off their lengths and Kohli deployed a defensive field which meant we scored very freely until the last 5 overs when Bumrah and Bhuvneshwar bowled well at the death as they always do. In addition, the likes of Babar and Hafeez, who had been in poor form till that point, were able to ride on the momentum. A lot of batsmen tend to find form in a situation like that.

I won't look too much into the bowling performance because any half-decent bowling attack would more often than not defend a mammoth total in the final regardless of the quality of the opposition. The match was in our bag the moment we crossed 330.

People can call me a troll, an attention-seeker or a closet Indian. They can make fun of me, mock me and make personal attacks, but I don't mind. I am not here to make friends or enemies; I am just here to say what I have to say. This is my view.

As for as the question of why I support and follow Pakistan cricket. Well, I follow cricket because of my love and passion for the sport, especially its intricate details, its history and the romance that a lot of people tend to overlook, and I support Pakistan cricket because Pakistan is my country.

Nonetheless, it is good to be supportive but you also have to be realistic. I just don't think Pakistan is a very good team at the moment in any format.

To add to it,

If Bumrah would have sent Fakhar packing early, the chances of Babar playing a customary stagnant innings would have been very high. These days he hardly manages to bat a decent SR for his first 50-60 balls, and his SR in the final had a lot to do with the position that the team was in when he arrived at the crease.

Also, and I am sure everyone agrees on this, there is no way Hafeez would have batted like that if he would arrived at the crease in the middle overs. Under those circumstances, the only batsman whose performance would have been better was Malik, who is our best middle-overs batsman and he lost his wicket cheaply that day while trying to go for big shots from ball one. It worked for Hafeez but didn't work for him.

 

[Professor]

Top post.

The hate you get is understandable as most Pakistanis are emotional and very patriotic.

Just look at the way some continue to defend cheaters like Ajmal, some actually aplaud them and rank them next to greats like Warne.

Being realstic is the only way to go about it.

Whether the champions trophy was a fluke or not, that June was the best june of my life, seeing Pakistan finally beat India on the big stage and win silverware after years is a great feeling.

But who are we kidding, at the end of the day Thisara Perera with his dropped catch awarded us the trophy Bless you Perera!

The Perera catch enabled us to beat SA, England and India? Wow, never knew that Perera is so powerful that he has a direct impact on matches that he doesn't even play in.

 

[Boi]

The slowness of the Cardiff pitch is being wayy overstated. If it really was that sluggish there wouldn't have been top edges flying in to the River. Yes it was a used wicket but to make it out as it was sluggish and slow almost like it had been imported from the UAE is inaccurate. Pakistan simply put in a quality bowling performance which England couldn't handle.

 

[Mamoon]

Top post.

The hate you get is understandable as most Pakistanis are emotional and very patriotic.

Just look at the way some continue to defend cheaters like Ajmal, some actually aplaud them and rank them next to greats like Warne.

Being realstic is the only way to go about it.

Whether the champions trophy was a fluke or not, that June was the best june of my life, seeing Pakistan finally beat India on the big stage and win silverware after years is a great feeling.

But who are we kidding, at the end of the day Thisara Perera with his dropped catch awarded us the trophy Bless you Perera!

We are a delusional nation, and it is a fact that we should embrace. The CT was indeed a wonderful experience, and thumping India in the final was surreal. It is something that no Pakistani will ever forget, but at the same time, it doesn't indicate much for the future. It was a one-off triumph like 1992 and 2009, and if we think it kickstarted a golden era then we are setting ourselves up for disappointment.

However, I think a reality check is around the corner. Could be the NZ tour, could be after the NZ tour, but it is coming.

 

[Professor]

To add to it,

If Bumrah would have sent Fakhar packing early, the chances of Babar playing a customary stagnant innings would have been very high. These days he hardly manages to bat a decent SR for his first 50-60 balls, and his SR in the final had a lot to do with the position that the team was in when he arrived at the crease.

Also, and I am sure everyone agrees on this, there is no way Hafeez would have batted like that if he would arrived at the crease in the middle overs. Under those circumstances, the only batsman whose performance would have been better was Malik, who is our best middle-overs batsman and he lost his wicket cheaply that day while trying to go for big shots from ball one. It worked for Hafeez but didn't work for him.

If a close DRS call didn't go in Sachin's favour and if we didn't drop 5 catches of him India could have been out for 220 in the 2011 WC. Does that mean Inda's 2011 WC was a fluke?

 

[Mamoon]

The Perera catch enabled us to beat SA, England and India? Wow, never knew that Perera is so powerful that he has a direct impact on matches that he doesn't even play in.

I didn't say that, my post is clear. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but I am not a fan of being misquoted/misinterpreted.

 

[Mamoon]

If a close DRS call didn't go in Sachin's favour and if we didn't drop 5 catches of him India could have been out for 220 in the 2011 WC. Does that mean Inda's 2011 WC was a fluke?

India were the best ODI side at that time in Asian conditions. They were the heavy favorites before the tournament began, and the fact that they went all the way didn't come as surprise. Indian not winning that World Cup would have been a bit of an upset, just like how Australia not winning the 2015 World Cup would have been.

Secondly, DRS is not a matter of luck. The ball was going to miss the stumps and so it did. I am aware of the conspiracy theories to ease the pain but I am not interested in them.

Thirdly, you cannot equate dropped catches to a no-ball. We have always been a poor fielding side and dropping catches is down to our lack of skill and competence in the field. However, a no-ball is something that can happen to any bowler, and a good bowler can bowl no-balls regularly and a poor bowler may never bowl one.

India beat us in the 2011 Semifinal due to the fact that they were a better team than us. That Indian team would beat that Pakistani team 8/10 times. They were simply too good in the batting department, while we were carrying passengers from top to bottom.

However, our current ODI team is not better than the current Indian team, and they would still beat us more often than not. The final proved to be one of those rare instances, and we needed certain things to go our way to come out on top.

 

[90MPH]

Yes imagine if this happened and that happened. Then some other team would have won the CT and of course it wouldn't be a fluke.

What's ironic is the same poster accusing Pakistan of winning a fluke CT didn't batter an eyelid when the 2013 CT was won - if anything resembling a fluke it was that considering it was turned into a 20/20 and England choked at chasing down an easy target.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=120431]Professor[/MENTION]

I know you will now ask me why I consider the Sri Lankan dropped catches luck but do not extend the same logic to our fielders dropping Tendulkar's catches in Mohali.

The reason is that any fielding side can miss a catch or two, but when you drop a grand total of six catches in one innings, then you cannot consider it your bad luck; it is simply your incompetence.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes imagine if this happened and that happened. Then some other team would have won the CT and of course it wouldn't be a fluke.

What's ironic is the same poster accusing Pakistan of winning a fluke CT didn't batter an eyelid when the 2013 CT was won - if anything resembling a fluke it was that considering it was turned into a 20/20 and England choked at chasing down an easy target.

England certainly got a rough one in the final. In those conditions, they were better suited to beat India in 50 overs rather than 20 overs. India got lucky in that final, but cricket is a great leveler. Their luck ran out 4 years later.

 

[InziRules]

[MENTION=120431]Professor[/MENTION]

I know you will now ask me why I consider the Sri Lankan dropped catches luck but do not extend the same logic to our fielders dropping Tendulkar's catches in Mohali.

The reason is that any fielding side can miss a catch or two, but when you drop a grand total of six catches in one innings, then you cannot consider it your bad luck; it is simply your incompetence.

Or when Sri Lanka do it, it's because they were somehow more awful than us which is a fluke

 

[InziRules]

India were the best ODI side at that time in Asian conditions. They were the heavy favorites before the tournament began, and the fact that they went all the way didn't come as surprise. Indian not winning that World Cup would have been a bit of an upset, just like how Australia not winning the 2015 World Cup would have been.

Secondly, DRS is not a matter of luck. The ball was going to miss the stumps and so it did. I am aware of the conspiracy theories to ease the pain but I am not interested in them.

Thirdly, you cannot equate dropped catches to a no-ball. We have always been a poor fielding side and dropping catches is down to our lack of skill and competence in the field. However, a no-ball is something that can happen to any bowler, and a good bowler can bowl no-balls regularly and a poor bowler may never bowl one.

India beat us in the 2011 Semifinal due to the fact that they were a better team than us. That Indian team would beat that Pakistani team 8/10 times. They were simply too good in the batting department, while we were carrying passengers from top to bottom.

However, our current ODI team is not better than the current Indian team, and they would still beat us more often than not. The final proved to be one of those rare instances, and we needed certain things to go our way to come out on top.

So because they were pre-tournament favourites, it wasn't a fluke? Such a mundane existence

 

[Mamoon]

Or when Sri Lanka do it, it's because they were somehow more awful than us which is a fluke

If you drop 1-2 catches, you can say that you were unlucky. If you drop six, then perhaps it is time to wash off the butter from your fingers.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Mere months after the CT, some of the recent posts come across as really sad. Excuses flying left, right and centre for justification of why winning a major tournament was a fluke? How about staying quiet till we actually start to see some problems?

 

[Mamoon]

So because they were pre-tournament favourites, it wasn't a fluke? Such a mundane existence

A team that is favorite to win the tournament and ends up going all the way doesn't fluke it. Obviously, every time needs some good fortune at some point. However, when an average team like Pakistan or West Indies (2004) or India (1983) or Pakistan again (1992) or Australia (1987) go all the way, then it needs a lot of things going their way.

If we start taking things to the micro-level then we can also say that Australia had good fortune in 2015 because they were hosting the final. Both Australia and New Zealand were unbeaten in home matches in that World Cup, and if the match was at Auckland instead of Melbourne, it would have been much closer.

 

[Mamoon]

Mere months after the CT, some of the recent posts come across as really sad. Excuses flying left, right and centre for justification of why winning a major tournament was a fluke? How about staying quiet till we actually start to see some problems?

The problems are their for everyone to see if we take into consider how poor Sri Lanka have been. The batting continues to be mediocre and we are riding on the coattails of a couple of players who are in red hot form. They are plenty of passengers who have not been exposed due to the incompetent opposition.

Against quality opposition, the said passengers are going to be exposed. Again, CT was just 4 matches. It is far more difficult to hide deficiencies in the long run.

 

[Syed1]

The slowness of the Cardiff pitch is being wayy overstated. If it really was that sluggish there wouldn't have been top edges flying in to the River. Yes it was a used wicket but to make it out as it was sluggish and slow almost like it had been imported from the UAE is inaccurate. Pakistan simply put in a quality bowling performance which England couldn't handle.

Bhai Pakistan demolished England... as per some the pitch was the slowest thing ever known to mankind.

The pitch was so slow scientists are doing research on it regarding the space-time continuum because apparently time comes to a halt if you are standing on that slow pitch. The pitch is so slow that if you stand on it for any length of time your time scale would be different from the rest of the world. Infact if you want to attain immortality just go stand on that Cardiff pitch, time will stop moving for you. The Cardiff pitch was so slow that all subatomic particles on it have zero motion and the surface under the pitch has attained absolute zero temperature.

 

[Abdullah719]

The problems are their for everyone to see if we take into consider how poor Sri Lanka have been. The batting continues to be mediocre and we are riding on the coattails of a couple of players who are in red hot form. They are plenty of passengers who have not been exposed due to the incompetent opposition.

Against quality opposition, the said passengers are going to be exposed. Again, CT was just 4 matches. It is far more difficult to hide deficiencies in the long run.

How will it be a reality check when many people around here are in agreement with the liabilities in the team? We are going to face a side next in ODIs which is just one rank above us and most people reckon it will be a closely contested series; certainly, there's few people out there claiming that we will swipe aside NZ and beat them by massive margins on our way to a whitewash.

It would only be a 'reality check' if we go and lose every match in the manner Bangladesh has done recently during the tour of South Africa; that would indeed be very disappointing. However, your posts seems to suggest it's all too likely and is simply a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'.

 

[Haz95]

This is the reality check I was talking about for the delusional nation! I hate being realistic and right but I told you it was coming around the corner and most people didn't want to accept it because Pakistan is a delusional nation. The series we beat NZ in NZ was papered by our bowling, the Aus series in Aus we won because Aus is at its worst and we fluked our way to the finals. Pakistan cricket is finished. We should do the funeral. I am a fan, I don't mind personal attacks because they're expected and I still want Pakistan to win but I can accept being realistic. We just aren't a very good team, leave aside these false achievements and false dawns that I've seen 100s of times.

What you can expect from certain cry babies in hypothetical situations.

 

[Professor]

I didn't say that, my post is clear. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but I am not a fan of being misquoted/misinterpreted.

I quoted [MENTION=131539]CricFan2012[/MENTION] in that post not you.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Being realstic is the only way to go about it.

Pakistan will beat NZ in the next series and that is being realistic. From your past posts i get that you support Babar and Haris primarily because of their excellent game against pace. Then why not back them and keep your hopes high? CT win might be fluke for others but I backed Sarfraz and knew only he can lead Pakistan to something big when we were struggling to qualify for world cup. Now the team is even better and they will win against NZ, IA. The best thing is we have majority team players who are hungry to win keeping aside their personal milestones.

 

[Syed1]

CT win was FLUKE

The first and third highest wicket takers were Pakistani... FLUKE

The sixth and eighth highest run scorers were Pakistani... FLUKE

 

[Haz95]

This ridiculous notion that Pakistan winning due to a UAE pitch being dropped in England (just like it supposedly did when Pak drew in tests against em haha) vs England needs to be debunked. The real reasons Pakistan destroyed the supposed favourites was because:

1) They have a bog average bowling attack. If the wicket isn't flat, they're already exposed.
2) The are tremendous chokers. Like on the same level of SA. The so called explosive line up was actually full of quality players because this same line up (if not weaker) did well in slow pitches of Bangladesh. They're simply not up to pressure games.
3) Pakistan's bowling was by far the hungriest and most dangerous in the CT

There was no fluke in this, just a bit of luck due to being against a crappy opposition who Pakistan thoroughly exposed. Don't be surprised if the same happens to the supposed favourites in the 2019 WC. Only the Aussies and perhaps the Indians (down to Dhawan firing) can compete against this current Pak bowling in a pressure game.

 

[giri26]

All keep the discussion to just cricket and refrain from personal attacks.

 

[waleed88]

I consider the England win better than the win against India. The fact that Ben Stokes couldn't hit a boundary in his 60 balls he faced showed what a big choke that was from England. But more so, how we invincible we looked playing against the best side of the tournament till then.

I mean this is an England side that completely annhilated us in the previous two bilateral series they played against us home and away, 4-0 and 4-1.

The odds of us winning against England was almost zero.

 

[waleed88]

Same England side that thrashed us 444 in the 3rd ODI. Its just ridiculous how they lost it at the semi final stage.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

I think having posters like Mamoon (with somewhat of a left field analysis) is actually great for Pakpassion, brings massive diversity & difference of opinion even among the Pakistani posters & diversity is always good since it lets you develop a capacity to share ideas with people you don't necessarily agree with

This is also one of the reasons why PP is THE BEST cricketing and or social forum that I've personally been a part of, extremely engaging while having posters with very articulated opinions - Much better than any country's forum that I've even lurked for previously!!

 

[Railu Katta]

I think having posters like Mamoon (with somewhat of a left field analysis) is actually great for Pakpassion, brings massive diversity & difference of opinion even among the Pakistani posters & diversity is always good since it lets you develop a capacity to share ideas with people you don't necessarily agree with

This is also one of the reasons why PP is THE BEST cricketing and or social forum that I've personally been a part of, extremely engaging while having posters with very articulated opinions - Much better than any country's forum that I've even lurked for previously!!

He's doing it for attention.

 

[The_Odd_One]

To add to it,

If Bumrah would have sent Fakhar packing early, the chances of Babar playing a customary stagnant innings would have been very high. These days he hardly manages to bat a decent SR for his first 50-60 balls, and his SR in the final had a lot to do with the position that the team was in when he arrived at the crease.

Also, and I am sure everyone agrees on this, there is no way Hafeez would have batted like that if he would arrived at the crease in the middle overs. Under those circumstances, the only batsman whose performance would have been better was Malik, who is our best middle-overs batsman and he lost his wicket cheaply that day while trying to go for big shots from ball one. It worked for Hafeez but didn't work for him.

Had Pakistan taken all those catches of Tendulkar in 2011, they would have won the match and most probably that WC.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Bhai Pakistan demolished England... as per some the pitch was the slowest thing ever known to mankind.

The pitch was so slow scientists are doing research on it regarding the space-time continuum because apparently time comes to a halt if you are standing on that slow pitch. The pitch is so slow that if you stand on it for any length of time your time scale would be different from the rest of the world. Infact if you want to attain immortality just go stand on that Cardiff pitch, time will stop moving for you. The Cardiff pitch was so slow that all subatomic particles on it have zero motion and the surface under the pitch has attained absolute zero temperature.

That's some science right there!

How was the pitch slow when someone like Azhar smacked Stokes like Sehwag and Oakistan chased the target in 40 overs for like 2 wickets?

 

[RamLakhan]

A Pakistani opening such thread shows that they themselves have that complex and want to prove hard.

 

[HateKiller]

It was not a fluke my friends. Let us stop this ridiculousness and move on.

 

[Usman Chadda]

The problems are their for everyone to see if we take into consider how poor Sri Lanka have been. The batting continues to be mediocre and we are riding on the coattails of a couple of players who are in red hot form. They are plenty of passengers who have not been exposed due to the incompetent opposition.

Against quality opposition, the said passengers are going to be exposed. Again, CT was just 4 matches. It is far more difficult to hide deficiencies in the long run.

Okay, but the team won 5-0 yes? How about you and your kind here leave the rest of us in peace till the team is playing well? This constant whining is really annoying to be honest. Heck two days back I read a post which said Sarfraz Ahmed should be dropped from the LOI teams. Will dig it up if I get the time. Matlab bhai hadd hoti hai rone peetne ki. Team ke 5-0 jeetnay pe kaun maatam manaata hai?!

 

[MenInG]

A Pakistani opening such thread shows that they themselves have that complex and want to prove hard.

Lets not bring nationalities into this; just views of individuals

 

[MenInG]

Added poll to get a sense of opinion

 

[JibranAnsari]

We beat the 3 top teams in the world , if you believe that it was a fluke then better get your head checked.

 

[wrongun]

More than anything, I think people have taken offense to the word fluke. Well it is just a convenient word used to describe our title winning CT, but it can be explained in other ways and other words.

To put it simply, in the CT, what could have gone right for Pakistan went right, and what could have gone wrong for the opposition went wrong. We had our fair share of luck throughout the tournament and there were plenty of moments that could have easily swung the other way.

We would probably have chased the South African total down, but it was heading towards a jittery finish. We were finding it hard to score fluently and we have seen our batting lineup bolt many chases from a similar situation. However, I will cut the team some slack because Morkel was the only bowler who threatened us till that point, and heh had only three overs left.

The Sri Lankan chase was a total shambles, and was a proper get out of jail moment for us. We were poor, but Sri Lanka were simply atrocious. Those dropped catches definitely did huge favors for us and those were suggesting that the likes of Hasan etc. would have seen us home are forgetting that almost all our batsmen crumbled under pressure.

Amir was unusually calm under pressure especially for a tail-ender, but it doesn't mean that the others would have been composed as well, especially someone like Hasan who likes to go for slogs regardless of the situation.

In the semifinal, the slow Cardiff pitch played right into our hands. England had been the best team throughout the tournament and their batsmen could not adjust to the sluggish Cardiff pitch. At The Oval or Edgbaston, they would probably have beaten us.

In the final, again, what could go right for us went right. Every inside edge seemed to miss the stumps and our running was shambolic in the first 10 overs but somehow they didn't run themselves out. The no-ball was of course a pivotal moment and it could have changed the complexion of the game.

Fakhar's counter-attacking batting - especially after Azhar's dismissal - put the Indian bowlers off their lengths and Kohli deployed a defensive field which meant we scored very freely until the last 5 overs when Bumrah and Bhuvneshwar bowled well at the death as they always do. In addition, the likes of Babar and Hafeez, who had been in poor form till that point, were able to ride on the momentum. A lot of batsmen tend to find form in a situation like that.

I won't look too much into the bowling performance because any half-decent bowling attack would more often than not defend a mammoth total in the final regardless of the quality of the opposition. The match was in our bag the moment we crossed 330.

People can call me a troll, an attention-seeker or a closet Indian. They can make fun of me, mock me and make personal attacks, but I don't mind. I am not here to make friends or enemies; I am just here to say what I have to say. This is my view.

As for as the question of why I support and follow Pakistan cricket. Well, I follow cricket because of my love and passion for the sport, especially its intricate details, its history and the romance that a lot of people tend to overlook, and I support Pakistan cricket because Pakistan is my country.

Nonetheless, it is good to be supportive but you also have to be realistic. I just don't think Pakistan is a very good team at the moment in any format.

Great post. I think you are being a bit glass half empty.

The fact that guys like Hasan & Rumman & Shadab have kicked on and continued to be success; Babar's surge in confidence & form; A greater belief in and substance to to Sarfraz's captaincy; continued contributions (however munch flak I may get for acknowledging it, but they have a decent form line) of last chance guys like Hafeez & Malik; all of that points to a positive upswing for Pakistan cricket imo.

Yes, Hafeez now not being bowler pretty much ends him, but Malik is having a positive contribution at the end of his career. Can get a few years out of him if he keeps it up. I think Pakistan is an opener short (unless you use Azhar) and probably needs a tall seamer too.

But things are moving in the right direction imo. Yes, Pakistan rode it's luck to win CT but no-one could say they didn't deserve to win it or that they didn't play the most exhilarating cricket of the tournament. That's a well earned win & fair play.

I do think people claiming the worlds greatest attack etc are getting a bit carried away & the next world cup is a long way off. But with this form, a pretty good record in England lately and a year or so to fill those gaps in the team, for the first time in a decade I can genuinely say Pakistan might have a team that could challenge for a World Cup. Not saying they are favourites but I would give them as much chance as anyone else 18 months out.

 

[InziRules]

Thanks for the poll, [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION]

One last thing I want to add on this thread. The entire purpose of cricket is to win trophies. In tests, those are bilateral series and reaching the number 1 rank to win the test mace

For ODI's and T20's, it's winning the absolute pinnacle. To compare with football, bilateral series are the league, but the pinnacle, the Champions Trophy of Cricket would be the World Cup and the CT's.

We won the Champions Trophy. Celebrate that instead of hoping for reality checks to bring Pakistanis down to Earth. The purpose of any sport is trophies and we won the 2nd most important trophy in ODI cricket. We are where we are in the rankings because we're not the best team in the world. But in the tournament, we WERE the best team and won it. No fluke involved. And that's the magic of cups and trophies, and they're meant to be celebrated.

If we lost every match between now and the World Cup, and then won the World Cup, then I would still celebrate. Ideally, I want us to win both the Cups and be Number 1, but I'll be damned if I look back at a nice trophy we won and say that our fans need a reality check for celebrating.

 

[Mamoon]

Okay, but the team won 5-0 yes? How about you and your kind here leave the rest of us in peace till the team is playing well? This constant whining is really annoying to be honest. Heck two days back I read a post which said Sarfraz Ahmed should be dropped from the LOI teams. Will dig it up if I get the time. Matlab bhai hadd hoti hai rone peetne ki. Team ke 5-0 jeetnay pe kaun maatam manaata hai?!

Except that the team is not really playing well, and some of us are willing to look at the bigger picture. The calls of dropping the Specialist Captain from ODIs is certainly uncalled for, but I see little purpose him in playing T20Is. We can use that format to develop a younger captain and a backup WK. In addition, it will reduce the Specialist Captain's workload who is not setting the standards with his fitness.

 

[Mamoon]

Had Pakistan taken all those catches of Tendulkar in 2011, they would have won the match and most probably that WC.

Most likely yes, but when you drop six catches in an innings you can no longer put it down to luck. However, that one no-ball was unfortunate and it could have swung the match India's way.

 

[Mamoon]

How will it be a reality check when many people around here are in agreement with the liabilities in the team? We are going to face a side next in ODIs which is just one rank above us and most people reckon it will be a closely contested series; certainly, there's few people out there claiming that we will swipe aside NZ and beat them by massive margins on our way to a whitewash.

It would only be a 'reality check' if we go and lose every match in the manner Bangladesh has done recently during the tour of South Africa; that would indeed be very disappointing. However, your posts seems to suggest it's all too likely and is simply a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'.

We have been losing series to teams like SA, England, Australia, NZ under the poor captaincy of Misbah/Azhar and a team full of TTFs. If we are still losing to these teams in spite of the vibrant captaincy of the Specialist Captain and the emergence of some talented young players, then it means that we are still some way off from beating those teams.

Pakistan's real test starts now and if we can beat NZ in January, we can say that yes this team is making significant progress. Running them close is not good enough because even Azhar's team gave a very stiff fight last year.

 

[Ab Fan]

Definitely not fluke. I think Pakistan has some good players now with Babar, Hasan and Amir.

 

[CricFan2012]

Pakistan will beat NZ in the next series and that is being realistic. From your past posts i get that you support Babar and Haris primarily because of their excellent game against pace. Then why not back them and keep your hopes high? CT win might be fluke for others but I backed Sarfraz and knew only he can lead Pakistan to something big when we were struggling to qualify for world cup. Now the team is even better and they will win against NZ, IA. The best thing is we have majority team players who are hungry to win keeping aside their personal milestones.

I do back them to come good, Babar already proved himself against NZ last time around.

We are a good ODI side now no doubt about that, question is how fast we can get to top 3, and thats if we consistently beat saffers, pommies and kangaroos, even better in their own backyards.
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I am the last person to call conspiracy but 5-6 catches dropped is very very shady.

 

[CricFan2012]

The Perera catch enabled us to beat SA, England and India? Wow, never knew that Perera is so powerful that he has a direct impact on matches that he doesn't even play in.

Mate, the SA match was before the Sri Lanka match, we did great there, we also convincly trashed England and India as well, although India match was luck but not taking anything away because now I feel Amir and Hasan would have blown away India even if it was a 250-300 score if Fakhar didn't get lucky.

But we wouldn't have even played England or India if Thisara did not drop that catch, that is what I'm saying and hope it comes more clear to you.

 

[hadi123]

We beat SA, England and India rather easily. Three of the best ODI teams in the world. How exactly is that a fluke?

 

[Syed1]

Most likely yes, but when you drop six catches in an innings you can no longer put it down to luck. However, that one no-ball was unfortunate and it could have swung the match India's way.

What was preventing them from getting him out after that point? he was on 4 when it happened and he went onto score a further 110 runs. Luck didn't play ANY role in it.


We beat your team fair and square, accept it.

 

[Syed1]

Even if you take out Fakhar's 114 runs Pakistan would have still beaten India.

338-114 = 224


Pakistan: 224
India: 158

Pak won by 66 runs



Haters se darkhuwast hai ke bar-e-mehrbani apna moh bund kar lien

 

[shaz619]

Even if you take out Fakhar's 114 runs Pakistan would have still beaten India.

338-114 = 224


Pakistan: 224
India: 158

Pak won by 66 runs



Haters se darkhuwast hai ke bar-e-mehrbani apna moh bund kar lien

The biggest fluke was Inzi and Mickey Arther getting all the credit when it was the boys who played well, now our management has somehow become immune to any kind of criticism

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

We beat SA, England and India rather easily. Three of the best ODI teams in the world. How exactly is that a fluke?

Ask yourself this question - if CT trophy were to be held today, what are the chances Pakistan can win it all again? While the bowling unit has been in form and getting the opposition out cheaply, it will be a matter of time when the game is played on a pitch which has no assistance for the bowlers.

With a 300+ pitch, our batting line up cannot be trusted to win us any games. How many fours can Fakhar hit with his helmet? When teams like Australia and NZ have done their homework on him, I would like to see how many times he scores runs freely on a regular basis.

 

[lehen]

The fact is Pakistan won it and India should have won it even after letting Pakistan score 330+
Final or No Final it was an easy wicket and the same bowlers were tonked mericlessly Just 8-10 days ago.PK was better on the day and that's what mattered.even in 1992 WC, PK was the 4th or 5th best team but they clicked in last 2 games and that's what mattered! Nothing bad about it

 

[waleed88]

The reason some call it a fluke is due to the following:

1) Victory over South Africa was primarily due to rain. The batsmen were looking very uncomfortable against Morkel and you could sense a collapse was lurking around the corner.

2) Sarfraz being dropped by Sri Lanka was the reason Pakistan won that game.

3) England had an off day on a used pitch.

4) Fakhar was caught off a no-ball and went on to score a 100.

Too many external factors went in Pakistan's favour. Call it divine intervention if you will.

Compare this to Australia's 1999 World Cup tournament win..

Steven Waugh was dropped by Herschelle Gibbs, Aus went on to chase the 271 set by South Africa in super sixes with Waugh getting a century.

Then in the semi final South Africa had one run to get after Klusener hit Fleming for 2 fours and then ran himself out, tying the match between South Africa and Australia. With Australia going onto the final on NRR.

In the final they meet Pakistan, who they had already lost to in the group stages, Pakistan won the toss and batted on a really bad surface (used pitch), scoring just 132 and making it one of the most one sided finals in the history of world cricket.

 

[RamLakhan]

Even if you take out Fakhar's 114 runs Pakistan would have still beaten India.

338-114 = 224


Pakistan: 224
India: 158

Pak won by 66 runs



Haters se darkhuwast hai ke bar-e-mehrbani apna moh bund kar lien

Cricket is not mathematics... It is about building pressure vs. handling pressure. This late no-ball-call-tv-technology-after-batsman-is-given-out has to be banned, else they should use auto electronic line judge system. It depresses a team too much when a dismissal is overturned like that... One team loses the momentum and the other gains (psychologically) especially on such big matches... OK even if you consider that as some kind of DRS, still there are so many instances where a batsman has went on to score lots of runs after a life/overturned/bad decision. Nobody has made a big issue of all these, its just that India considered this as bad luck on their part and good luck on Pakistan's part (just to console themselves). Even then Pakistan would have won, but as you said the margin would have come down (but not exactly like your maths)

Also please remember that if there was a match between the two teams played immediately (2 or 3 days) after that, I am confident that India would have won it by upping their tempo & overcoming their mistakes, while Pakistan would have been complacent... On team strengths India were ahead... But we have to give credit to Pakistan for getting it right on the day that mattered, that's all it takes... So some of us call it as an upset but definitely not fluke... At the same time I also agree that most of the times when India beat Pakistan in all WC encounters, they can be termed upset from Pakistan point of view (except maybe from 1999 onward when Indian team went stronger)

 

[waleed88]

Cricket is not mathematics... It is about building pressure vs. handling pressure. This late no-ball-call-tv-technology-after-batsman-is-given-out has to be banned, else they should use auto electronic line judge system. It depresses a team too much when a dismissal is overturned like that... One team loses the momentum and the other gains (psychologically) especially on such big matches... OK even if you consider that as some kind of DRS, still there are so many instances where a batsman has went on to score lots of runs after a life/overturned/bad decision. Nobody has made a big issue of all these, its just that India considered this as bad luck on their part and good luck on Pakistan's part (just to console themselves). Even then Pakistan would have won, but as you said the margin would have come down (but not exactly like your maths)

Also please remember that if there was a match between the two teams played immediately (2 or 3 days) after that, I am confident that India would have won it by upping their tempo & overcoming their mistakes, while Pakistan would have been complacent... On team strengths India were ahead... But we have to give credit to Pakistan for getting it right on the day that mattered, that's all it takes... So some of us call it as an upset but definitely not fluke... At the same time I also agree that most of the times when India beat Pakistan in all WC encounters, they can be termed upset from Pakistan point of view (except maybe from 1999 onward when Indian team went stronger)

That sort of excuse never came up for you guys through the whole of 90s when you gloated about your 3 world cup victories while losing everything in between. You have mentioned that in the post, but 95% of your posters never ever considered those flukes.

Just to take a DRS as a match changing event is just really over predicting it via hindsight. There could've been a million of permutations and combinations regardless of what the DRS decision was.

 

[waleed88]

For e.g Johnny Bairstow was out in the first over to Junaid Khan in the semi final, it was not given, the DRS showed it was hitting off stump but Bairstow survived. Now if Bairstow went on to hit a century we would be whining about that 'match turning' decision in the first over.

However Bairstow didn't do anything he got out to Hasan Ali, and Pakistan went on from strength to strength.

You have to realize [MENTION=78894]RamLakhan[/MENTION] that the odds of Fakhar scoring his 1st ODI century in Tournament final were almost as much as Pakistan' chances of winning the tournament when it started. No.8 ranked team in the world at that time, people were saying and laughing at the team from yesteryears, that how far have they come off after the teams of the names they had before. If you had any doubts watch the preview of CT 2017 from Harsha Bhogle or any other analysis from cricinfo.

We were being compared to West Indies, the team that didnt even make the tournament.

 

[Syed1]

For e.g Johnny Bairstow was out in the first over to Junaid Khan in the semi final, it was not given, the DRS showed it was hitting off stump but Bairstow survived. Now if Bairstow went on to hit a century we would be whining about that 'match turning' decision in the first over.

However Bairstow didn't do anything he got out to Hasan Ali, and Pakistan went on from strength to strength.

You have to realize [MENTION=78894]RamLakhan[/MENTION] that the odds of Fakhar scoring his 1st ODI century in Tournament final were almost as much as Pakistan' chances of winning the tournament when it started. No.8 ranked team in the world at that time, people were saying and laughing at the team from yesteryears, that how far have they come off after the teams of the names they had before. If you had any doubts watch the preview of CT 2017 from Harsha Bhogle or any other analysis from cricinfo.

We were being compared to West Indies, the team that didnt even make the tournament.

Heck Ravi Shahstri was predicting an easy victory for India even after the first innings. We should let Indians and Mamoon run their mouth. The fact is Pakistan was the best side in the tournament and we were FAR better than any other side that competed and it showed in the final result. Opinion of one or two naysayers should be quashed with brute force.

 

[Extra_Cover]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and negative criticism.

Some posters here wearing the mask of a realist describing the CT win as a fluke is an example of negative criticism. Negative criticism is criticising an act which has been done well, simply because some people don't like the actors in it they will suggest that other external factors apart from the actors contributed more to the overall the act.

For me Pakistan was the better team than their opponents on each day, whether you say no-ball, dropped catches, conditions, etc; it always comes down to the overall performance on the day and Pakistan outperformed everybody during that time.

 

[Syed1]

There is a difference between constructive criticism and negative criticism.

Some posters here wearing the mask of a realist describing the CT win as a fluke is an example of negative criticism. Negative criticism is criticising an act which has been done well, simply because some people don't like the actors in it they will suggest that other external factors apart from the actors contributed more to the overall the act.

For me Pakistan was the better team than their opponents on each day, whether you say no-ball, dropped catches, conditions, etc; it always comes down to the overall performance on the day and Pakistan outperformed everybody during that time.

You can put it down to luck or fluke if the matches were close. Pakistan completely blasted the opposition.

It was Aussie of 2000s level performance and that is unacceptable for certain quarters. Let them run their mouth.

 

[SM1989]

Compare this to Australia's 1999 World Cup tournament win..

Steven Waugh was dropped by Herschelle Gibbs, Aus went on to chase the 271 set by South Africa in super sixes with Waugh getting a century.

Then in the semi final South Africa had one run to get after Klusener hit Fleming for 2 fours and then ran himself out, tying the match between South Africa and Australia. With Australia going onto the final on NRR.

In the final they meet Pakistan, who they had already lost to in the group stages, Pakistan won the toss and batted on a really bad surface (used pitch), scoring just 132 and making it one of the most one sided finals in the history of world cricket.

Yes but Australia won all their games fairly convincingly prior to that Semi final against South Africa. In fact they won 7 on the trot to clinch the world cup.

 

[InziRules]

Yes but Australia won all their games fairly convincingly prior to that Semi final against South Africa. In fact they won 7 on the trot to clinch the world cup.

They lost to us though. We won 4 on the trot to clinch the CT, which has 5 games

 

[ManFan]

Pakistan won. Get your over it. You can say could have, would have, should have all you want. But when you look at the history books, it will sy on June 18th, Pakistan beat India by their largest margin in ODI's to win the CT. Now shut up and focus on cricket that is going to happen, not dwell in the past.

 

[ManFan]

Australia's 1999 WC Campaign:
Gibbs Dropped Catch
Donald Brain Fade
They beat PAK who beat them in the GS. Nobody argues that they would beat them 8/10 times. That's the laziest arguement I've ever heard. Grow a pair and accept you were proven wrong or don't keep calling yourself a fan of Pakistan cricket.

 

[waleed88]

Yes but Australia won all their games fairly convincingly prior to that Semi final against South Africa. In fact they won 7 on the trot to clinch the world cup.

Yes, 4 for Pakistan in CT 2017 and 1 defeat.

7 for Australia, don't forget there are minnows in the World Cup (zimbabwe scotland etc)

 

[imranq]

If flukes were this good, I would mind a few more from this Pakistani team.

 

[imranq]

At the end of the day this conversation is irrelevant. Why ask the question when you are not going to like the answers.

Every one has different view points of looking at it, some have bias, others jealousy but all that matters is Pakistan won the 2017 CT against all odds and by beating the best of the competition with the final being the cherry on top. Whether it was a fluke or not, I can only recount the happiness and joy it brought to me, many posters here and the country. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Syed1]

Yes but Australia won all their games fairly convincingly prior to that Semi final against South Africa. In fact they won 7 on the trot to clinch the world cup.

Australia also lost to us in the group stages of 99 WC.


Pakistan's CT win was more dominating than Aus 99 WC win.

 

[Khan12]

Everyone thing which Pakistan wins it's a fluke. I would love a few more flukes.

 

[htariq25]

More than anything, I think people have taken offense to the word fluke. Well it is just a convenient word used to describe our title winning CT, but it can be explained in other ways and other words.

To put it simply, in the CT, what could have gone right for Pakistan went right, and what could have gone wrong for the opposition went wrong. We had our fair share of luck throughout the tournament and there were plenty of moments that could have easily swung the other way.

We would probably have chased the South African total down, but it was heading towards a jittery finish. We were finding it hard to score fluently and we have seen our batting lineup bolt many chases from a similar situation. However, I will cut the team some slack because Morkel was the only bowler who threatened us till that point, and heh had only three overs left.

The Sri Lankan chase was a total shambles, and was a proper get out of jail moment for us. We were poor, but Sri Lanka were simply atrocious. Those dropped catches definitely did huge favors for us and those were suggesting that the likes of Hasan etc. would have seen us home are forgetting that almost all our batsmen crumbled under pressure.

Amir was unusually calm under pressure especially for a tail-ender, but it doesn't mean that the others would have been composed as well, especially someone like Hasan who likes to go for slogs regardless of the situation.

In the semifinal, the slow Cardiff pitch played right into our hands. England had been the best team throughout the tournament and their batsmen could not adjust to the sluggish Cardiff pitch. At The Oval or Edgbaston, they would probably have beaten us.

In the final, again, what could go right for us went right. Every inside edge seemed to miss the stumps and our running was shambolic in the first 10 overs but somehow they didn't run themselves out. The no-ball was of course a pivotal moment and it could have changed the complexion of the game.

Fakhar's counter-attacking batting - especially after Azhar's dismissal - put the Indian bowlers off their lengths and Kohli deployed a defensive field which meant we scored very freely until the last 5 overs when Bumrah and Bhuvneshwar bowled well at the death as they always do. In addition, the likes of Babar and Hafeez, who had been in poor form till that point, were able to ride on the momentum. A lot of batsmen tend to find form in a situation like that.

I won't look too much into the bowling performance because any half-decent bowling attack would more often than not defend a mammoth total in the final regardless of the quality of the opposition. The match was in our bag the moment we crossed 330.

People can call me a troll, an attention-seeker or a closet Indian. They can make fun of me, mock me and make personal attacks, but I don't mind. I am not here to make friends or enemies; I am just here to say what I have to say. This is my view.

As for as the question of why I support and follow Pakistan cricket. Well, I follow cricket because of my love and passion for the sport, especially its intricate details, its history and the romance that a lot of people tend to overlook, and I support Pakistan cricket because Pakistan is my country.

Nonetheless, it is good to be supportive but you also have to be realistic. I just don't think Pakistan is a very good team at the moment in any format.

I respect your opinion but its quite odd to think the champions trophy winners aren't a good odi team and the number 1 t20 team isn't a good team.

 

[htariq25]

If the champions trophy was a fluke then every cricket game is fluke. In every cricket game there is a toss and that can decide the result of a match so I guess every match is a fluke.

 

[hadi123]

Ask yourself this question - if CT trophy were to be held today, what are the chances Pakistan can win it all again? While the bowling unit has been in form and getting the opposition out cheaply, it will be a matter of time when the game is played on a pitch which has no assistance for the bowlers.

With a 300+ pitch, our batting line up cannot be trusted to win us any games. How many fours can Fakhar hit with his helmet? When teams like Australia and NZ have done their homework on him, I would like to see how many times he scores runs freely on a regular basis.

This is not a good argument. If any tournament was to be held at a different time there would be a different winner. Can't guarantee that if they repeated the World T20 2016 a few months later WI would win again, if they repeated the 2015 WC again Australia would win again. The Champions Trophy was a schedule tournament for June and Pakistan won it by playing amazing cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

This is not a good argument. If any tournament was to be held at a different time there would be a different winner. Can't guarantee that if they repeated the World T20 2016 a few months later WI would win again, if they repeated the 2015 WC again Australia would win again. The Champions Trophy was a schedule tournament for June and Pakistan won it by playing amazing cricket.

That WI team won two WT20s, and Australia will win a World Cup in Australia more often than not. Similarly, India will win a World Cup in India more often than not. However, Pakistan will probably win a CT in England once in 100 attempts.

 

[Syed1]

That WI team won two WT20s, and Australia will win a World Cup in Australia more often than not. Similarly, India will win a World Cup in India more often than not. However, Pakistan will probably win a CT in England once in 100 attempts.

And how did you come up with that number other than shooting from your hip?

 

[Mamoon]

Australia's 1999 WC Campaign:
Gibbs Dropped Catch
Donald Brain Fade
They beat PAK who beat them in the GS. Nobody argues that they would beat them 8/10 times. That's the laziest arguement I've ever heard. Grow a pair and accept you were proven wrong or don't keep calling yourself a fan of Pakistan cricket.

Australia rode their luck in 1999 on many occasions, but then they went on to dominate the game for 8 years like not other team ever has minus the WI. If Pakistan are able to build on the CT win and start beating teams like India, Australia, England and SA frequently, no one will look back at the CT and call it a flash in the pan.

 

[Mamoon]

And how did you come up with that number other than shooting from your hip?

It is arbitrary. The point is that our chances of winning a world tournament are very low because there are better teams than us. We are not better than India, Australia, England, South Africa (choking aside) and New Zealand, and these teams will have a better chance of going all the way.

 

[Mamoon]

I respect your opinion but its quite odd to think the champions trophy winners aren't a good odi team and the number 1 t20 team isn't a good team.

If we compare ourselves to our dark era of 2011-2016, then definitely this ODI unit is a superior one. I think we are heading back to 1990s and 2000s when we were better in ODIs compared to Tests. During Misbah's reign, we were better in Tests but that wasn't the norm for Pakistan cricket.

However, compared to the top teams is in the world, we are lagging behind considerably when it comes to batting. Not a single batsman of ours gets into any of the top sides minus Babar perhaps, but he will be booted out after 3 games if he continues to score his first 50 runs at a SR of 65 game in game out.

For Pakistan, his accumulation is worth its weight in gold, but for other teams it will prove to be a hindrance especially when they have better batsmen in their teams who can hold the batting together and at a better SR.

 

[babajee]

If we compare ourselves to our dark era of 2011-2016, then definitely this ODI unit is a superior one. I think we are heading back to 1990s and 2000s when we were better in ODIs compared to Tests. During Misbah's reign, we were better in Tests but that wasn't the norm for Pakistan cricket.

However, compared to the top teams is in the world, we are lagging behind considerably when it comes to batting. Not a single batsman of ours gets into any of the top sides minus Babar perhaps, but he will be booted out after 3 games if he continues to score his first 50 runs at a SR of 65 game in game out.

For Pakistan, his accumulation is worth its weight in gold, but for other teams it will prove to be a hindrance especially when they have better batsmen in their teams who can hold the batting together and at a better SR.

Lol every team around the world would love a batsman like Babar Azam.

#4 ranked batsman in ODIs. Not many are better than him.

 

[Ocelot]

This is the reality check I was talking about for the delusional nation! I hate being realistic and right but I told you it was coming around the corner and most people didn't want to accept it because Pakistan is a delusional nation. The series we beat NZ in NZ was papered by our bowling, the Aus series in Aus we won because Aus is at its worst and we fluked our way to the finals. Pakistan cricket is finished. We should do the funeral. I am a fan, I don't mind personal attacks because they're expected and I still want Pakistan to win but I can accept being realistic. We just aren't a very good team, leave aside these false achievements and false dawns that I've seen 100s of times.

What you can expect from certain cry babies in hypothetical situations.

Pakistani nation swings from either abusively overconfident to downright embarrassingly wrist slitting and self loathing, there's no in between!

 

[Mamoon]

Lol every team around the world would love a batsman like Babar Azam.

#4 ranked batsman in ODIs. Not many are better than him.

India, England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are not going to accommodate Babar in their lineup when they have Kohli, Rohit, Root, Bairstow, Amla, du Plessis, Smith, Williamson, Latham, Taylor etc. respectively. It is not about the rankings; it is about the team composition and who brings what to the table.

These teams don't need an accumulator like Babar because they already have them. For example, India is looking for #4 who can be a game-changer. They have Kohli and Rohit to hold the innings together, and another accumulator like Babar is not going to help them. That is why they have been trying the likes of Pandya etc. in that position.

Babar needs to improve in some aspects but he is still a high quality ODI batsman, but he is simply not needed by the top teams.

 

[badsha001]

Always like reading Mamoon post, he is saying stuff which most Pakistani doesn't want to hear but it is harsh truth... Pakistan winining Champions Trophy was a biggest fluke in Cricket History after India winning worldcup final against West Indies.

 

[Haz95]

Pakistani nation swings from either abusively overconfident to downright embarrassingly wrist slitting and self loathing, there's no in between!

It's funny because if they fail then 'Pakistan cricket is dead, they simply are inferior to every one of their counterparts and yeah blah blah, funeral, blahblah some more'. On the other hand if they win, fans celebrate and call out the cry babies. Then a few somewhat delusional fans take it overboard, the cry babies come bunny hopping out and leave aside the positive comments/celebrations and head straight to pray on these delusional, but passionate fans by whinging things like 'false dawn!! Reality check around corner!! These trophies, the rewards, rankings, these worldwide commendations means nothing new because blah blah funeral blah blah Parosis, Convicts and Poms are the best blah blah'

Objectively looking at this current ODI team shows that they're definitely a competitive team, the best in the world tho? No...but they could be. One thing for sure is that this team is a different breed compared to the last 10 or so years of dross.

 

[MRSN]

It was not fluke but the fact that Pakistan won only one match with their batting was definitely fluke that too from Fakher Zaman who has never looked in the same touch since that hundred. Pakistani fans do not understand. Our bowling was dead perfect. It happens rarely these days that you win matches by blowing oppositions away for low 200 odd runs.