The differences behind the creation of Pakistan and Israel and why those cannot be compared

KB

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In comparing the creation of Pakistan to Israel, I would argue that the similarities are in fact superficial when we consider the nature of their respective nationalisms and the critical differences between the nature of the partitions of India and Palestine. Where there is greater similarity is understanding how Muslim nationalism in India and Zionism in Europe was shaped by a sense of vulnerability that was rooted in being a minority in the age of nationalism.

Preamble

A key figure in the Zionist movement, Chaim Weizmann, wrote to the last viceroy of India, Louis Mountbatten in June 1947:

“There is great similarity, as you may have gathered, between the Indian problem and our problem here [in Palestine]. In comparison with India the Palestine problem may seem as a storm in a tea-cup, but I venture to say that the repercussions of the Palestine problem are, and are likely to continue to be, very serious indeed. . . . I believe that a Palestinian Pakistan would be a rational way-out.”

Israel is called here, in striking words, “Palestinian Pakistan.”

Compare this with the thoughts of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, a key figure in the Indian Nationalist movement. He rejected the “analogy of the Jewish demand for a national home” in April 1946:

“One can sympathize with the aspiration of the Jews for such a national home, as they are scattered all over the world and cannot in any region have any effective voice in the administration. The condition of Indian Muslims is quite otherwise. Over 90 millions in number they are in quantity and quality a sufficiently important element in Indian life to influence decisively all questions of administration and policy. Nature has further helped them by concentrating them in certain areas.”

Nationalism

The argument that Pakistan and Israel are kindred spirits rests in part in the feeling that they represented a distinctive form of nationalism that was abstract rather than anchored to a sense of history and geography. However, while this argument has some purchase in the case of Muslim nationalism in India, it is far more tenuous when we consider Zionism.

For Muhammad Iqbal, Muslim nationalism rested on spiritual unity and was unrelated to notions of blood and soil. He wrote: “The membership of Islam as a community is not determined by birth, locality or naturalisation; it consists in the identity of belief. The expression ‘Indian Muhammadan’, however convenient it may be, is a contradiction in terms, since Islam in its essence is above all conditions of time and space. Nationality with us is a pure idea; it has no geographical basis.”

Liaquat Ali Khan, addressing the All-India Muslim Educational Conference in 1945, stated “the principle of territorial nationalism is opposed to the Muslim view of nationalism which is based on a philosophy of society and outlook on life rather than allegiance to a piece of territory.”

Blood and soil could not be the basis of Muslim unity in India.

Theodor Herzl, in the case of Zionism, had also said “We recognize ourselves as a nation through our faith.” But in the case of Zionism, blood and soil notions were far more central to Jewish nationalism.

Many Jews - no matter how mythical in reality - considered themselves as descendants of biblical Jews and Israelites. Ian McGonigle, an anthropologist, has perceptively noted: “in Israel, the stakes of the debate over Jewish origins are high, because the founding narrative of the Israeli state is based on exilic ‘return’. If European Jews have descended from converts, the Zionist project can be pejoratively categorised as ‘settler colonialism’ pursued under false assumptions, playing into the hands of Israel’s critics and fueling the indignation of the displaced and stateless Palestinian people. The politics of “Jewish genetics” is consequently fierce.”

For Muslims the territory of Pakistan was not sacred or special, it was only important insofar as it was the territory in which Muslims were a majority. But for Zionists, the land in Palestine was considered to be holy and rich with ‘historic’ memory. Elizeir Schweid, an Israeli scholar, wrote:“The uniqueness of the Land of Israel is thus ‘geo-theological’ and not merely climatic. This is the land which faces the entrance of the spiritual world, that sphere of existence that lies beyond the physical world known to us through our senses. This is the key to the land’s unique status with regard to prophecy and prayer, and also with regard to the commandments.”

It is therefore follows that both states have a radically different view on the issue of the ‘right of return’. It occupies a central place in Zionist thinking and the very term ‘right of return’ implies the importance of lineage. There is no such notion in Pakistan. Section 4 of the Pakistan Citizenship Act of 1951 is clear and remains to this day: “Every person born in Pakistan after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of Pakistan by birth …” This is the concept of jus soli rather than citizenship defined by descent as in the case of Israel and certainly Muslims outside of Pakistan do not have an automatic right to Pakistani citizenship.

Partition

If the content of the nationalism was different, what about comparing the arguments for partition?

Here I turn to Zafarullah Khan, Pakistan’s articulate UN representative who was eloquent in his defence of Palestinian interests. In November 1948 he made three key points when comparing the partition of India and the partition of Palestine. (A summary of his comments at the General Assembly on 30 Nov. 1948, can be accessed here: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/774025?ln=en&v=pdf).

Firstly, in India the major parties had consented to partition. In the case of Palestine, partition was imposed upon the Palestinians. The result of the United Nations proposed partition plan was hardly equitable by any measure: the Jewish state would get 55 per cent of Mandatory Palestine comprising 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs; the remaining land would be a Palestinian state, made up of 725,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. Jerusalem would be placed under international control.

Secondly, a majority of Muslims - indeed millions and millions of Muslims - already lived in the areas that eventually made up Pakistan. They were not settlers or colonisers in any respect. Although ‘settler-colonial’ is controversial in pro-Israel quarters, before the word attained negative connotations, many Zionists freely used the word ‘colonisation’. The Zionist leader Leo Motzkin for instance: “Our thought is that the colonisation of Palestine has to go in two directions: Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and the resettlement of the Arabs of Eretz Israel in areas outside the country.”

Thirdly, the basis of partition was different. In India, division was generally at a sub-district level - tehsil and even the level of thana. The historian, Joya Chatterji, writes that Radcliffe also conceded the Congress argument that thanas (police stations), as the smallest units for which census figures had been published, were the most acceptable units of Partition.” If the same basis was applied in the case of Palestine, the Jewish state would have been very small indeed: the Jewish community was only a majority in one of the sixteen sub-districts - Jaffa.

Expulsion

We might pause to consider one of the implications of these different trajectories through the founding fathers of the new state. When many Hindus left Pakistan from Sindh, Jinnah lamented the exodus. He said this “was part of a well-organized plan to cripple Pakistan.” As historian A. Dirk Moses writes, "These are hardly the sorts of sentiments one would have heard from David Ben-Gurion regarding Palestinian Arabs.”

Indeed, note Israeli historian, Anita Shapira on Ben-Gurion:

“A brief uprising by the residents of Lydda (Lod) exposed the danger inherent in leaving a large bloc containing a hostile population behind the advancing army, midway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. The commanders Allon and Yitzhak Rabin, who were considering a large-scale population evacuation, went to consult with Ben-Gurion. Ben-Gurion listened to them and did not react; he had an uncanny ability to keep silent when he needed to. It was only at the end of the discussion, as the commanders were about to leave for the battlefield, that, according to Rabin, Ben-Gurion waved his hand and said: “Expel them.” . . . like most of his ministers, he saw the Arabs’ exodus as a great miracle, one of the most important in that year of miracles, since the presence of a hostile population constituting some forty percent of the new state’s total populace did not augur well for the future.”

For Ben-Gurion it was a case of as many Jews and as few Arabs as possible in the state of Israel.

Minority

If a comparison falls down when considering the plans for partition and the nature of their nationalisms, a comparison can be made in terms of how Muslim separatism and Zionism grew in strength in the inter-war period in the context of, I) the uncertainties that confronted minorities (not restricted to Jews and Indian Muslims) in the age of nationalism; ii) the feeling that law was insufficient as a guarantor of minority rights and that power was required.

What needs to be emphasised is how unsettling the rise of nationalism and representative institutions were to minorities. As Jane Burbank and Frederick Cooper remind us in their book on Empire: “Throughout history, most people have lived in political units that did not pretend to represent a single people. Making state conform with nation is a recent phenomenon.”

Empires were of course hierarchical and exclusionary, but loyalty in the final analysis was owed to the ruler and the dynasty and not to an ethnicity. Whereas a state under empire “declares the non-equivalence of multiple populations,” the nation-state by contrast “proclaims the commonality of its people.”

Nationalists - in pursuit of assimilation and homogeneity - often displayed a discomfort with difference.

Sholomo Avineri, an Israeli political scientist and a biographer of Theodor Herzl, said in an interview: “In a way, when the Austro-Hungarian empire broke up after the First World War and new nation states were established, Herzl’s dire prophecy was vindicated. With the exception of Czechoslovakia, which was relatively liberal, all the successor states of the Austro-Hungarian empire—Romania, Hungary, Austria itself, Poland—were very nationalistic places in which the Jews had the status of a national minority in a nation state. That wasn’t the case in Austria-Hungary, where they were a minority in an empire made up of minorities.”

Avineri went on to say: “There is no doubt that it is. European nationalism in the 19th century made Jews strangers or foreigners for the first time. Whatever you say about the Middle Ages, Jews then were viewed as the “other”, but not as alien. Modern European nationalism therefore created a different identity for the Jews. And when Jewish nationalism developed, it was very much a mirror image of European nationalism.”

Mark Mazower in his brilliant book - The Dark Continent - demonstrates that the victors of World War I sought to deal with the problem of minorities through the force of international law and the League of Nations minority system. The idea was to keep minorities were they were, backed by legal guarantees and overseen by the League of Nations. The rise of Nazism and its obsession with biological racism put paid to this.

The League of Nations and its international law based approach to the minority problem had unravelled. This is the context for understanding the increasing anxiousness of minorities.

Adeel Hussain has argued that although we tend to view Jinnah as the consummate constitutional lawyer, in fact Jinnah during the 1930s turned away from the belief that the framework of law and legal guarantees could secure protection for the Muslim minority. In his Presidential Address at Lucknow in October 1937, he appealed not to law and justice but to power as the ultimate source of protection for a community:

“Honourable settlement can only be achieved between equals, and unless the two parties learn to respect and fear each other, there is no solid ground for any settlement. Offers of peace by the weaker party always mean confession of weakness, and an invitation to aggression. Appeals to patriotism, justice, and fair play, and for good will, fall flat. It does not require political wisdom to realise that all safeguards and settlements would be a scrap of paper, unless they are backed up by power. Politics means power, and not relying only on cries of justice or fair play or good will. Look at the nations of the world, and look at what is happening every day. See what has happened to Abyssinia; look at what is happening to China and Spain--and not to say of the tragedy of Palestine…”

Conclusion

Power is indeed what mattered. Mazower argues that what replaced the League of Nations approach to collective rights was an emphasis on individual human rights:

“As the post-war settlement in Europe would show, the main interest of the major powers was in limiting their obligations to minor states, and this meant that they too were happy to bury the League’s approach to collective rights. The result was that the United Nations’ eventual commitment to individual human rights was as much an expression of passivity as of resolve by the Allies. It was a means of avoiding problems, not of solving them. This fact helps us understand why so few of the wartime hopes for a reinvigoration of international law were to be realized.”

Therefore, while there are superficial arguments made about the similarity of Pakistan and Israel, a deeper examination would suggest some critical differences need to be acknowledged when considering the arguments for their creation. If similarities are to be sought, it is more fruitful to find these through the prism of minority politics and minority concerns in the age of nationalism.
 
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What a wonderful post.

This argument has been used many times by our Indian friends here.

The following point in your post is enough to debunk any comparison:

Secondly, a majority of Muslims - indeed millions and millions of Muslims - already lived in the areas that eventually made up Pakistan. They were not settlers or colonisers in any respect. Although ‘settler-colonial’ is controversial in pro-Israel quarters, before the word attained negative connotations, many Zionists freely used the word ‘colonisation’. The Zionist leader Leo Motzkin for instance: “Our thought is that the colonisation of Palestine has to go in two directions: Jewish settlement in Eretz Israel and the resettlement of the Arabs of Eretz Israel in areas outside the country.”

However, I think if we scratch away at our Indian friends arguments ultimately we come to the point where they deep down believer that we Muslims are also settlers and that's why this comparison resonates so strongly with them.
 
Partition happened 77 years ago. For whatever it's worth, we Indians are happy with our country much like Pakistanis are happy with their country. No regrets on either side except a few people. The real tragedy in the number of innocent people who lost their lives in the riots.​
 
Therefore, while there are superficial arguments made about the similarity of Pakistan and Israel, a deeper examination would suggest some critical differences need to be acknowledged when considering the arguments for their creation. If similarities are to be sought, it is more fruitful to find these through the prism of minority politics and minority concerns in the age of nationalism.
Good observation, also one striking distinction between the two is that one is an apartheid and occupant state created by West and the other is one that came out as a result of a democratic election in 1946.
 
Good observation, also one striking distinction between the two is that one is an apartheid and occupant state created by West and the other is one that came out as a result of a democratic election in 1946.

How many Hindus were allowed to vote in that election in 1946?
 
How many Hindus were allowed to vote in that election in 1946?
If you are talking about seperate electorate then what's your thoughts on Congress's mandate especially of 1937 when they squeezed the Muslims afterward.
 
If you are talking about seperate electorate

Iam referring to the bizzare fact that Hindus had very little say in the division of the country therefore that election cannot be called a democratic vote to divide British India on communal lines


then what's your thoughts on Congress's mandate especially of 1937 when they squeezed the Muslims afterward.

are you referring to this ?: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Indian_provincial_elections
 
Iam referring to the bizzare fact that Hindus had very little say in the division of the country therefore that election cannot be called a democratic vote to divide British India on communal lines




are you referring to this ?: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Indian_provincial_elections
Its not about one community be it muslims and Hindus and interesting fact Valla Bhai Patel was the first among congressmen to let the Muslims have their own state. Muslim league through votes and efforts carved a nation for muslims.
 
Israel was created as a by-product of a collective guilt of the Europeans. As a result, the Palestinians are on the receiving end of collective punishment of this action nearly 80 years later.

Telling that, the Europeans were happy for it to be created far away from Europe so that Jewry was no longer their problem. Another quote attributed to Ben Gurion although he was a leading Zionist himself said that the Zionists stole the land from the native Arabs and they obviously would not be happy.
 
Its not about one community be it muslims and Hindus and interesting fact Valla Bhai Patel was the first among congressmen to let the Muslims have their own state.

Forget Patel he was not the one who held any veto powers. It was MK Gandhi the ultimate Muslim appeaser .and even he was opposed to the idea of partition.

Muslim league through ONLY MUSLIM votes and efforts carved a nation for muslims at the expense of non-muslims

Corrected for accuracy ... which is why the word Democratic should never be used in the context of anything that involves Pakistan
 
Basically Pakistanis are native, akin to any other separatist or secessionist entity.

Israelis are a foreign invader occupier
 
Basically Pakistanis are native, akin to any other separatist or secessionist entity.

Israelis are a foreign invader occupier
50% of Jews in Israel are natives. The rest are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. Only 20% are recent settlers from Europe.

I agree that Jews got way too much land compared to the original jewish nation proposed by Britain. But that land was lost by Palestine due to wars.

Coming to Pakistan, if all of the Pakistanis are natives, the. It’s fine and good. But going by internet posts, it looks like most Pakistanis claim Iranian, Turkic and Arabic ancestry. If there is any truth to it, then they are all invaders.
 
50% of Jews in Israel are natives. The rest are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. Only 20% are recent settlers from Europe.

I agree that Jews got way too much land compared to the original jewish nation proposed by Britain. But that land was lost by Palestine due to wars.

Coming to Pakistan, if all of the Pakistanis are natives, the. It’s fine and good. But going by internet posts, it looks like most Pakistanis claim Iranian, Turkic and Arabic ancestry. If there is any truth to it, then they are all invaders.
Can you explain how did you arrive at the percentages?

the reality is that ethnic origin debates take place across whole of the subcontinent. One could argue that it is the modern Indian that is most obsessed by it. Debates about Indo-Aryans and Dravidians etc are found on your side and are quite often politicized.
 
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Both Pakistan and Israel were created with the blessings of GB.

I suggest you read the 1947 Indian independence act. Here is what it is about:


An Act to make provision for the setting up in India of two independent Dominions.....

India, in it's modern format didn't just fall from the sky. It was given to you guys by the British and existed as a British dominion during its initial years.
 
TLDR when Muslims do it we will go to any length to find any reasons to justify it, when someone else does the same thing we will deny.
 
TLDR when Muslims do it we will go to any length to find any reasons to justify it, when someone else does the same thing we will deny.

The most concise and accurate tldr ... yet sad considering that even the most educated Muslims subscribe to this.
 
Can you explain how did you arrive at the percentages?

Also despite your lazy attempts to paint Pakistanis as claiming origins elsewhere the reality is that ethnic origin debates take place across whole of the subcontinent. One could argue that it is the modern Indian that is most obsessed by it. Debates about Indo-Aryans and Dravidians etc are found on your side and are quite often politicized.


45% are Ashkenazi Jews. 55% are natives of Middle East. Among Askenazi, majority are 2nd and 3rd generations.

In India the debate between Aryan vs Dravidian came due to Dravidian movement led by some tools in south India. Its political. Not religious.

Indians always say that Pakistanis and Indians are same stock. But Pakistanis are usually quick to tell Indian trolls that they all have non- Indian ancestry. Most Indians will be happy if Pakistanis agree that they are natives and not foreign invaders.
 

45% are Ashkenazi Jews. 55% are natives of Middle East. Among Askenazi, majority are 2nd and 3rd generations.

In India the debate between Aryan vs Dravidian came due to Dravidian movement led by some tools in south India. Its political. Not religious.

Indians always say that Pakistanis and Indians are same stock. But Pakistanis are usually quick to tell Indian trolls that they all have non- Indian ancestry. Most Indians will be happy if Pakistanis agree that they are natives and not foreign invaders.
Natives of the Maghreb and North Africa. Make your mind up what constitutes 'native'. Were talking about the land of 'Palestine' , which includes the perceived notion of Israel and all the stretch of land near it including Lebanon and Syria.

The majority are actually Eastern European, largely Russian.

They have as much right to it as Moroccans do Andalusia
 
TLDR when Muslims do it we will go to any length to find any reasons to justify it, when someone else does the same thing we will deny.

You need to give us more than a few simple sentences.

What do you think the Muslims are trying to justify here and on what basis are you equating it to the creation of Israel?
 

45% are Ashkenazi Jews. 55% are natives of Middle East. Among Askenazi, majority are 2nd and 3rd generations.

In India the debate between Aryan vs Dravidian came due to Dravidian movement led by some tools in south India. Its political. Not religious.

Indians always say that Pakistanis and Indians are same stock. But Pakistanis are usually quick to tell Indian trolls that they all have non- Indian ancestry. Most Indians will be happy if Pakistanis agree that they are natives and not foreign invaders.

You can dismiss things that aren't convenient to you but the fact is the Indo-Aryan debates and other ethnic divisions are more common on your side. Political parties run on these issues.

A few Pakistanis on twitter isn't the same.

And anyway there is nothing that links most Pakistanis including me to the majority of Indians. Punjabis yes and some parts of North but the majority of Indians cultures are completely alien.

Claiming that we are the same stock is equally as wrong as claiming other ethnicities.
 
You need to give us more than a few simple sentences.

What do you think the Muslims are trying to justify here and on what basis are you equating it to the creation of Israel?

The fact that most posters here consider the Jews as European settlers just sums up the whole conflict in a nutshell.

Muslims here are pick and choosing which year of history they will go to.

The ancestors of today’s Muslims persecuted and displaced the ancestors of today’s Jews. Yet Muslims will consider Jews as colonisers and not the original colonisers who were actually Muslims who displaced the Jews.

The land of Jerusalem was inhabited by Jews even before Islam came into existence.

Kingdom of Israel (the Jewish state) existed before Kingdom of Palestine, it might have actually existed even before Islam came into existence (will have to check the exact dates).

Calling Jews as colonisers when in fact history tells Muslims were the original invaders/colonisers is just how Muslims pick and choose history.

Generally from my experience, Muslims are extremely rigid in their beliefs even if the beliefs are right or wrong. There is nothing wrong in having rigid beliefs, but when it comes to certain aspects where they justify other historic Muslims wrong doings while condemning other religions sane wrong doings in today’s world it leaves a sour taste in others.
That’s the reason why right wing gets the support it does, it’s just that even the normal Muslims, the ones you see on this very thread, the educated ones, do not consider Jews the original owner of the land and call them occupiers.
 
Maybe you ought to consider what being a Muslim means in this sense.

I do understand. When it comes to religion as long as it’s not Muslim vs muslim and is Muslim vs other religion, the Muslims will always support other Muslims even if they are in the wrong.

That’s not a bad thing, it’s just how the religion is designed/spread/propagated.
 
The most concise and accurate tldr ... yet sad considering that even the most educated Muslims subscribe to this.

That’s the main reason why Muslims have so many conflicts, they are very rigid in their beliefs and do not subscribe to any other belief.
Personally, I believe one needs to be flexible in today’s world, what was taught 2000 years ago might not be valid in modern moral values and one needs to understand that.

However, from my experience, most of the Muslims (atleast the Indian Muslims) are not willing to use their own brain and common sense when it comes to religious teachings/practices.
 
That’s the main reason why Muslims have so many conflicts, they are very rigid in their beliefs and do not subscribe to any other belief.
Personally, I believe one needs to be flexible in today’s world, what was taught 2000 years ago might not be valid in modern moral values and one needs to understand that.

Quite right.


However, from my experience, most of the Muslims (atleast the Indian Muslims) are not willing to use their own brain and common sense when it comes to religious teachings/practices.

sadly even the modern education system doesn't seem to have any solution to this problem. Just look at the abominable posts right here on this forum.
 
The fact that most posters here consider the Jews as European settlers just sums up the whole conflict in a nutshell.

Muslims here are pick and choosing which year of history they will go to.

The ancestors of today’s Muslims persecuted and displaced the ancestors of today’s Jews. Yet Muslims will consider Jews as colonisers and not the original colonisers who were actually Muslims who displaced the Jews.

The land of Jerusalem was inhabited by Jews even before Islam came into existence.

Kingdom of Israel (the Jewish state) existed before Kingdom of Palestine, it might have actually existed even before Islam came into existence (will have to check the exact dates).

Calling Jews as colonisers when in fact history tells Muslims were the original invaders/colonisers is just how Muslims pick and choose history.

Generally from my experience, Muslims are extremely rigid in their beliefs even if the beliefs are right or wrong. There is nothing wrong in having rigid beliefs, but when it comes to certain aspects where they justify other historic Muslims wrong doings while condemning other religions sane wrong doings in today’s world it leaves a sour taste in others.
That’s the reason why right wing gets the support it does, it’s just that even the normal Muslims, the ones you see on this very thread, the educated ones, do not consider Jews the original owner of the land and call them occupiers.
What makes you believe that these Israelis have more claim to the land than Palestinians? Do you believe that the bible is a land ownership document?

We aren't the ones making it a Jew or Muslim issue. It's not like there is a line of Indonesians or Pakistanis lining up to claim the land as theirs. There is however a line of Polish and Americans kicking people out of their homes. I think even you can convert to Judaism and kick a Palestinian out of their home.

Who was Jerusalem inhabited by before the Muslim conquest?
 
all those points are valid and yet miss the biggest elephant in the room, regardless of the merits of the arguments, the differences in the details, etc both countries were made on the grounds of religion being the fundamental unit of commonality, not language, not ethnicity.

given that most of the early zionists were secular, and that when it came to civil war west Pakistan had no issue othering their Muslim "brothers" in east pakistan, its also obvious that religion was a tool used to motivate the people on the ground, regardless of the fundamental truth of what were the driving forces behind the creation of the country.

also its amusing that both countries are now surrounded by neighbours who don't like them, suffer from a massive influx of people from countries they have meddled in, have a powerful benefactor that supports them, and are riddled with both religious and amoral extremism and corruption on all kinds of levels.

if anyone doesnt see the glaring commonalities between both countries, its because they willfully refuse to see the forest from the trees. even if i agree unequivocally with the UP assertion, it does not negate how similarly both countries' fates have played out and displays excellently how destructive religion-based politics is.
 
50% of Jews in Israel are natives. The rest are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. Only 20% are recent settlers from Europe.

I agree that Jews got way too much land compared to the original jewish nation proposed by Britain. But that land was lost by Palestine due to wars.

Coming to Pakistan, if all of the Pakistanis are natives, the. It’s fine and good. But going by internet posts, it looks like most Pakistanis claim Iranian, Turkic and Arabic ancestry. If there is any truth to it, then they are all invaders.
You conveniently miss out the fact that prior to the Nakba of 1948, the % of Jews in Palestine was very small, less than 10% at one point. The pro israel movement at the turn of the 20th century started encouraging immigration from Europe and started a violent campaign of expulsion against the natives.

I suggest not to post blatant inaccuracies and lies to suit your agenda. Also kindly not to post rubbish if you don't know anything about the history or have knowledge of the conflict.
 
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Does it occur to you that Judaism predates Islam by many centuries and that their holiest shrine is pretty much right in the middle of that area regardless of what Muslims think in terms of land ownership?
For orthodox Jews, its not important for them to have their own land near their "holiest shrine", it's not part of their theological construct, look it up if you need to. And which shrine are you talking about? The last shrine holy to Judaism hasn't been there for 2000 years.
 
all those points are valid and yet miss the biggest elephant in the room, regardless of the merits of the arguments, the differences in the details, etc both countries were made on the grounds of religion being the fundamental unit of commonality, not language, not ethnicity.

given that most of the early pro israel were secular, and that when it came to civil war west Pakistan had no issue othering their Muslim "brothers" in east pakistan, its also obvious that religion was a tool used to motivate the people on the ground, regardless of the fundamental truth of what were the driving forces behind the creation of the country.

also its amusing that both countries are now surrounded by neighbours who don't like them, suffer from a massive influx of people from countries they have meddled in, have a powerful benefactor that supports them, and are riddled with both religious and amoral extremism and corruption on all kinds of levels.

if anyone doesnt see the glaring commonalities between both countries, its because they willfully refuse to see the forest from the trees. even if i agree unequivocally with the UP assertion, it does not negate how similarly both countries' fates have played out and displays excellently how destructive religion-based politics is.
Excellent post.

It's true that the differences between the formation of Israel and Pakistan are obvious and those who try to equate the two are usually just trying to point score.

However it's also true that both are constrained by the same straitjacket they have forced on themselves i.e. having to base their modern country on an old religion.
 
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For orthodox Jews, its not important for them to have their own land near their "holiest shrine", it's not part of their theological construct, look it up if you need to. And which shrine are you talking about? The last shrine holy to Judaism hasn't been there for 2000 years.
Those are the " Torah Jews "

The Orthodox Jews actually believe they should build a temple on the site of the Al Aqsa and that Judea & Samaria ( West Bank ) should be annexed by Israel
 
Excellent post.

It's true that the differences between the formation of Israel and Pakistan are obvious and those who try to equate the two are usually just trying to point score.

However it's also true that both are constrained by the same straitjacket they have forced on themselves i.e. having to base their modern country on an old religion.
Except they haven't. Israel prides itself on being ultra liberal and actually oppresses the ultra orthodox.

Pakistan was a haven for preexisting people subjugated by the Hindu majority.

There's very little similarity apart from the fact they're formed around the same time.

Why has the Jewish diaspora still living around the world not gone home ?.
 
Except they haven't. Israel prides itself on being ultra liberal and actually oppresses the ultra orthodox.

Pakistan was a haven for preexisting people subjugated by the Hindu majority.

There's very little similarity apart from the fact they're formed around the same time.

Why has the Jewish diaspora still living around the world not gone home ?.
1. the ultra orthodox in Israel have more privileges than any other group, they are exempt from military service and until recently had their education and rabbinical studies subsidised by the state.

2. Muslims before partition were not subjugated by hindus, both groups were subjects of the British. before that Muslims were for vast parts of history the ruling class. the Pakistan movement was based on the pre-empting of the fact that a simple majority would democratically exploit the concerns of the Muslim minority on a federal level, which was arguably proven correct given the hindutva extremism of mainstream indian politics.

3. The core similarity is that both movements would not have been able to get political support from the average jew or average Muslim as an idea without the religious pretext.

4. why should every jew move to Israel? pakistanis have tried to move out of pakistan en masse for decades and hundreds of millions of indian Muslims never even moved to Pakistan (those you claim were subjugated by the hindu masses), does that reduce the legitimacy of pakistan as a state which was created for the Muslims of the indian subcontinent?

your fourth point inadvertently highlights another similarity between the evolution of both states.
 
You conveniently miss out the fact that prior to the Nakba of 1948, the % of Jews in Palestine was very small, less than 10% at one point. The pro israel movement at the turn of the 20th century started encouraging immigration from Europe and started a violent campaign of expulsion against the natives.

I suggest not to post blatant inaccuracies and lies to suit your agenda. Also kindly not to post rubbish if you don't know anything about the history or have knowledge of the conflict.
They are still middle eastern Jews. Not the European ones that everyone cries about.
I posted the link from CIA website and you are calling it fake. Ok bro. Whatever floats your boat.

If you want to know what ethnic cleansing means, look for Pakistan’s best friend Turkey and what they did to Greeks and Armenians of Anatolia. Egypt also says hi. There were no Arabs in Egypt prior to 6th century in Egypt. Now they are all Arabs with small Coptic minority.
 
You can dismiss things that aren't convenient to you but the fact is the Indo-Aryan debates and other ethnic divisions are more common on your side. Political parties run on these issues.

A few Pakistanis on twitter isn't the same.

And anyway there is nothing that links most Pakistanis including me to the majority of Indians. Punjabis yes and some parts of North but the majority of Indians cultures are completely alien.

Claiming that we are the same stock is equally as wrong as claiming other ethnicities.
Indian culture is alien to you because Pakistanis gave it up and adopted middle eastern one.
A Sindhi Hindu will not find Marathi or Bengali culture too alien. They can easily relate to them. The same goes for Punjabi Hindus.

Aryan-Dravidian is political. Dravidian parties use this to stay relevant and garner votes from gullible public.
 
What makes you believe that these Israelis have more claim to the land than Palestinians? Do you believe that the bible is a land ownership document?

We aren't the ones making it a Jew or Muslim issue. It's not like there is a line of Indonesians or Pakistanis lining up to claim the land as theirs. There is however a line of Polish and Americans kicking people out of their homes. I think even you can convert to Judaism and kick a Palestinian out of their home.

Who was Jerusalem inhabited by before the Muslim conquest?

When did I say Israelis have more claim to land than Palestinians or vice versa?

I am stating facts, that Jews belonged to that land before Muslims. Before Jews there might be pagans who lived in that land for all we know.

Let’s think of a hypothetical scenario, Today if let’s say Muslims are kicked out of that land by Jews and Jews live in that area for 30-40 years. Then a war breaks out which Jews lose and Saudi Arabia wins. Then Saudi Arabia decide to bring back Muslims back to that area as the victor of the war, I will bet my left pinkie, we won’t have a 10 page thread on PP condemning that action of Saudi Arabia.

Christian rulers persecuted Jews and kicked them out, Muslims rulers came and did the same.
Jews supported a Christian nation in WW1, that christian nation whether to correct their historical wrong doings or for the support of Jews to beat their enemies during WW1 agreed to give Jews their ancestor land back.

That are the facts. Whether you or I believe it’s right or wrong doesn’t change facts.

Do you support two state resolution?
Or do you want Jews to leave the land?

If you support 2 state solution then majority of your ire should be against the Arab nations.
When Israel was formed, Palestinians were given land as well, the Arab nations attacked Israel thinking they are too weak and they can displace the Jews, not once but multiple times, they lost all wars and Israel ended up capturing the Palestinian land as well.

Why did they do that? They along with majority of the Muslims thought they can win and get all the land. It’s only when it backfired spectacularly and they realised that Israel is no pushover now that they are talking about 2 state solution.

Had they agreed and accepted the 2 state solution there would not have been a conflict in the first place.

Had Arab nations won the war and Jews were being persecuted in Palestine right now, there wouldn’t have been a 10 page thread on PP about it.

Frankly, if you care about Palestinians first step should be to condemn action to Arab nations, second should be to condemn action of Hamas, third should be to condemn action of Israel and protest against Hamas and ask for their surrender, Israel to back down and accept 1967 borders and live as a 2 state solution.

The thing you and most people in the world fail to understand is that war is old, rich and powerful men sending others to die. The whole conflict is making the rich richer, whether it be due to supplying weapons or shorting share market due to war, or making billions through inflation. The rich are getting richer while the poor suffer.

That’s how it’s always been and always will be, Hamas top leadership is not fighting for Palestinians they are fighting for their own power, Israel leadership is doing the same and western countries supplying weapons etc are doing for their own.

Sooner people realise that the better it is, since then the normal folks who just was a good life can pressurise for what they actually want a good life.

Religion and fear are two most important tools the powerful use to blind the masses. And they will continue using these tools for next hundreds of years.
 
When did I say Israelis have more claim to land than Palestinians or vice versa?

I am stating facts, that Jews belonged to that land before Muslims. Before Jews there might be pagans who lived in that land for all we know.

Let’s think of a hypothetical scenario, Today if let’s say Muslims are kicked out of that land by Jews and Jews live in that area for 30-40 years. Then a war breaks out which Jews lose and Saudi Arabia wins. Then Saudi Arabia decide to bring back Muslims back to that area as the victor of the war, I will bet my left pinkie, we won’t have a 10 page thread on PP condemning that action of Saudi Arabia.

Christian rulers persecuted Jews and kicked them out, Muslims rulers came and did the same.
Jews supported a Christian nation in WW1, that christian nation whether to correct their historical wrong doings or for the support of Jews to beat their enemies during WW1 agreed to give Jews their ancestor land back.

That are the facts. Whether you or I believe it’s right or wrong doesn’t change facts.

Do you support two state resolution?
Or do you want Jews to leave the land?

If you support 2 state solution then majority of your ire should be against the Arab nations.
When Israel was formed, Palestinians were given land as well, the Arab nations attacked Israel thinking they are too weak and they can displace the Jews, not once but multiple times, they lost all wars and Israel ended up capturing the Palestinian land as well.

Why did they do that? They along with majority of the Muslims thought they can win and get all the land. It’s only when it backfired spectacularly and they realised that Israel is no pushover now that they are talking about 2 state solution.

Had they agreed and accepted the 2 state solution there would not have been a conflict in the first place.

Had Arab nations won the war and Jews were being persecuted in Palestine right now, there wouldn’t have been a 10 page thread on PP about it.

Frankly, if you care about Palestinians first step should be to condemn action to Arab nations, second should be to condemn action of Hamas, third should be to condemn action of Israel and protest against Hamas and ask for their surrender, Israel to back down and accept 1967 borders and live as a 2 state solution.

The thing you and most people in the world fail to understand is that war is old, rich and powerful men sending others to die. The whole conflict is making the rich richer, whether it be due to supplying weapons or shorting share market due to war, or making billions through inflation. The rich are getting richer while the poor suffer.

That’s how it’s always been and always will be, Hamas top leadership is not fighting for Palestinians they are fighting for their own power, Israel leadership is doing the same and western countries supplying weapons etc are doing for their own.

Sooner people realise that the better it is, since then the normal folks who just was a good life can pressurise for what they actually want a good life.

Religion and fear are two most important tools the powerful use to blind the masses. And they will continue using these tools for next hundreds of years.
So basically, this is how it has always been and in future the Saudi might do the same.

So just sit back watch history unfolds. Don't criticise genocide and protest to stop it unless you have first criticise everyone who is involved.

Bravo 👏
 
So basically, this is how it has always been and in future the Saudi might do the same.

So just sit back watch history unfolds. Don't criticise genocide and protest to stop it unless you have first criticise everyone who is involved.

Bravo 👏

Do you have comprehension issues or just low IQ?

We have already proven you have an extremist mindset, for you the first step is to change your mindset and consider human lives as humans first and not based on what religion you support.
People like you are the very crux of this entire issue. Unless you introspect first and change yourself, how can you even expect for a solution?
 
When did I say Israelis have more claim to land than Palestinians or vice versa?

I am stating facts, that Jews belonged to that land before Muslims. Before Jews there might be pagans who lived in that land for all we know.

Let’s think of a hypothetical scenario, Today if let’s say Muslims are kicked out of that land by Jews and Jews live in that area for 30-40 years. Then a war breaks out which Jews lose and Saudi Arabia wins. Then Saudi Arabia decide to bring back Muslims back to that area as the victor of the war, I will bet my left pinkie, we won’t have a 10 page thread on PP condemning that action of Saudi Arabia.

Christian rulers persecuted Jews and kicked them out, Muslims rulers came and did the same.
Jews supported a Christian nation in WW1, that christian nation whether to correct their historical wrong doings or for the support of Jews to beat their enemies during WW1 agreed to give Jews their ancestor land back.

That are the facts. Whether you or I believe it’s right or wrong doesn’t change facts.

Do you support two state resolution?
Or do you want Jews to leave the land?

If you support 2 state solution then majority of your ire should be against the Arab nations.
When Israel was formed, Palestinians were given land as well, the Arab nations attacked Israel thinking they are too weak and they can displace the Jews, not once but multiple times, they lost all wars and Israel ended up capturing the Palestinian land as well.

Why did they do that? They along with majority of the Muslims thought they can win and get all the land. It’s only when it backfired spectacularly and they realised that Israel is no pushover now that they are talking about 2 state solution.

Had they agreed and accepted the 2 state solution there would not have been a conflict in the first place.

Had Arab nations won the war and Jews were being persecuted in Palestine right now, there wouldn’t have been a 10 page thread on PP about it.

Frankly, if you care about Palestinians first step should be to condemn action to Arab nations, second should be to condemn action of Hamas, third should be to condemn action of Israel and protest against Hamas and ask for their surrender, Israel to back down and accept 1967 borders and live as a 2 state solution.

The thing you and most people in the world fail to understand is that war is old, rich and powerful men sending others to die. The whole conflict is making the rich richer, whether it be due to supplying weapons or shorting share market due to war, or making billions through inflation. The rich are getting richer while the poor suffer.

That’s how it’s always been and always will be, Hamas top leadership is not fighting for Palestinians they are fighting for their own power, Israel leadership is doing the same and western countries supplying weapons etc are doing for their own.

Sooner people realise that the better it is, since then the normal folks who just was a good life can pressurise for what they actually want a good life.

Religion and fear are two most important tools the powerful use to blind the masses. And they will continue using these tools for next hundreds of years.
I don't think you understand the history of the region as well as you think you do.

Please first explain whether you agree with the bible being a land registry document.

Then also please explain what your definition of being a Jew or Jewish is and what makes someone entitled to a piece of land based on belonging to this religion.

We can work from there.
 
Do you have comprehension issues or just low IQ?

We have already proven you have an extremist mindset, for you the first step is to change your mindset and consider human lives as humans first and not based on what religion you support.
People like you are the very crux of this entire issue. Unless you introspect first and change yourself, how can you even expect for a solution?
But you are the one who is not considering all human life's as human first but firmly accepting a religious apartheid.

For you someone who is Russian or Polish or Ethiopian but 'Jewish' has an ancient claim to a land based on them belonging to a religion you don't believe in.

Anybody who disagrees with your view is called an extremist and then you invent fictional scenarios to calculate how many threads there would be on PP. We are then told we are rigid in our beliefs etc etc.

Get off your high horse please.
 
Indian culture is alien to you because Pakistanis gave it up and adopted middle eastern one.
A Sindhi Hindu will not find Marathi or Bengali culture too alien. They can easily relate to them. The same goes for Punjabi Hindus.

Aryan-Dravidian is political. Dravidian parties use this to stay relevant and garner votes from gullible public.
There is no such thing as Indian culture.

I have nothing in common with someone from Assam, Tamil Nadu, or Andaman Islands.
 
I don't think you understand the history of the region as well as you think you do.

Please first explain whether you agree with the bible being a land registry document.

Then also please explain what your definition of being a Jew or Jewish is and what makes someone entitled to a piece of land based on belonging to this religion.

We can work from there.

You are asking my personal opinion?

Personally I don’t care about the land belongs to. I have 0 affiliation to either party.

I am stating the facts. Whether you want to believe inhabitants of land start from Muslim ruler or someone else wants to believe it starts from Kingdom of Israel days or someone else wants to believe it starts from Pagan days, it doesn’t make difference to me.

Regarding your questions about bible, ask the real question you want to ask directly. I don’t think this is relevant nor have I got any views nor knowledge on this particular question, if you want to discuss let’s talk straightforward and not like political spokesperson on TV news debates.
Are you stating that it’s written in bible that Jews lived in that land and there is no other evidence of Jews living in that land other than the Bible, hence you consider Jews as settlers from Europe because you don’t believe they actually lived in that land?

You believe first inhabitants of that land were Muslims and no one was there before Muslims?

Second question about land belonging to Jews, again personally I don’t care. I am saying the Jewish claim is which is again a proven fact that they were the original inhabitants of the land. If it was the other way, Arabs would have won and Jews were being persecuted, I would have still not cared, however, I would have said the same thing about Muslims being inhabitants from creation of Islam time.

If the conflict wasn’t religious in nature and was because of 2 countries like Russia/Ukraine we wouldn’t be discussing about religion would we?

My understanding of History of the region is from the available data which I have read.
If you have any credible data which proves Jews never lived in that land and the land belonged to Muslims from start, then feel free to post links. I’ll give it a read and if it’s credible information, you might actually educate me.
 
There is no such thing as Indian culture.

I have nothing in common with someone from Assam, Tamil Nadu, or Andaman Islands.
You would if your ancestors did not convert. The religion is same and the Gods are same. Only rituals vary.
 
L
But you are the one who is not considering all human life's as human first but firmly accepting a religious apartheid.

For you someone who is Russian or Polish or Ethiopian but 'Jewish' has an ancient claim to a land based on them belonging to a religion you don't believe in.

Anybody who disagrees with your view is called an extremist and then you invent fictional scenarios to calculate how many threads there would be on PP. We are then told we are rigid in our beliefs etc etc.

Get off your high horse please.

You jump in a post without knowing anything about it.

The poster I quoted is a proven extremist because of his posts deflecting Muslim apartheid against Israelis.

I didn’t call you an extremist, did I? Because you didn't justify cruelty of Hamas.

So, stop butting in posts which you have 0 idea about.
 
You are asking my personal opinion?

Personally I don’t care about the land belongs to. I have 0 affiliation to either party.

I am stating the facts. Whether you want to believe inhabitants of land start from Muslim ruler or someone else wants to believe it starts from Kingdom of Israel days or someone else wants to believe it starts from Pagan days, it doesn’t make difference to me.

Regarding your questions about bible, ask the real question you want to ask directly. I don’t think this is relevant nor have I got any views nor knowledge on this particular question, if you want to discuss let’s talk straightforward and not like political spokesperson on TV news debates.
Are you stating that it’s written in bible that Jews lived in that land and there is no other evidence of Jews living in that land other than the Bible, hence you consider Jews as settlers from Europe because you don’t believe they actually lived in that land?

You believe first inhabitants of that land were Muslims and no one was there before Muslims?

Second question about land belonging to Jews, again personally I don’t care. I am saying the Jewish claim is which is again a proven fact that they were the original inhabitants of the land. If it was the other way, Arabs would have won and Jews were being persecuted, I would have still not cared, however, I would have said the same thing about Muslims being inhabitants from creation of Islam time.

If the conflict wasn’t religious in nature and was because of 2 countries like Russia/Ukraine we wouldn’t be discussing about religion would we?

My understanding of History of the region is from the available data which I have read.
If you have any credible data which proves Jews never lived in that land and the land belonged to Muslims from start, then feel free to post links. I’ll give it a read and if it’s credible information, you might actually educate me.
I think there is a complication regarding the difference between Jewish identify and Jewish ethnicity and whether they are the same thing.

The Israeli state position is based on the bible and the land being promised to them. That is also the position of American Zionists.

Hence why I am asking your understanding of the definitions to see what they are based on.

For example do you think ancestors of Benjamin Netanyahu, Golda Meir, Evelyn Levy and the Ethiopian Jews or Jews of Hindustan who have emigrated all were kicked out by Muslims at some point?
 
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I think there is a complication regarding the difference between Jewish identify and Jewish ethnicity and whether they are the same thing.

The Israeli state position is based on the bible and the land being promised to them. That is also the position of American Zionists.

Hence why I am asking your understanding of the definitions to see what they are based on.

For example do you think ancestors of Benjamin Netanyahu, Golda Meir, Evelyn Levy and the Ethiopian Jews or Jews of Hindustan who have emigrated all were kicked out by Muslims at some point?

My personal position, I have already made it clear. I don’t care about it. Ingot 0 affiliations to either side.

I do enjoy posting and challenging different views on these forums so I do.

I am posting here to challenge your views, which I suppose I misinterpreted since you never spoke it out aloud.

So let’s start with that, you believe Jews inhabited the land before Islam was formed?
If yes, do you believe they deserve a country in the place they inhabited and which is most important for their religion?
Again If yes, your issue is with the amount of land they have been given?

Or do you believe, they don’t deserve a country?

Or do you believe they never inhabited the land?
 
My personal position, I have already made it clear. I don’t care about it. Ingot 0 affiliations to either side.

I do enjoy posting and challenging different views on these forums so I do.

I am posting here to challenge your views, which I suppose I misinterpreted since you never spoke it out aloud.

So let’s start with that, you believe Jews inhabited the land before Islam was formed?
If yes, do you believe they deserve a country in the place they inhabited and which is most important for their religion?
Again If yes, your issue is with the amount of land they have been given?

Or do you believe, they don’t deserve a country?

Or do you believe they never inhabited the land?
I don't believe all of the people claiming that they originated from that land actually originated from that land because I see a major flaw in the definition of being Jewish. The definition is mainly based on the bible and I don't believe in it as a factual text.

When you look at genetics and ancestry you get a different picture.

Many of the Jews of that time have converted to Christianity or Islam too. Some of the Palestinians are ethnically on that land from generations traced all the way back through history.

I don't think the modern jews should have been given a country in Palestine as a way for the Europeans to pass what they seen as a Jewish problem to somewhere else. They should have made proper atonement for the crimes of the holocaust by making Jews equal citizens in Europe rather than wipe their hands clean by shifting elsewhere.

However now that Israel is created the people who are born there elong there and cannot be removed.

My point is that conflating ethnicity and religion makes the thing more complex. It would be like during partition of India that Hindus of Indonesia or Cambodia were given land in India because they shared the same religion..makes no sense at all.
 
Do you have comprehension issues or just low IQ?

We have already proven you have an extremist mindset, for you the first step is to change your mindset and consider human lives as humans first and not based on what religion you support.
People like you are the very crux of this entire issue. Unless you introspect first and change yourself, how can you even expect for a solution?
Sure, let's get personal.

Firstly, I invite you to pinpoint instances where I may have exhibited traits associated with an extremist mindset, and I appreciate any evidence you can provide to substantiate your claim. Thank you

What change would you like me to adopt to bring about an end to the genocide?


Concerning human life, I am actively advocating and consistently reiterating the necessity to end the genocide unconditionally. What greater display of respect for human life, especially that of children, could there be? Now, could you please identify any instances within my 184 posts where human life has been disrespected? Thank you.

Now, let's return to your post, to which I regretfully chose to reply. Not because the post contained any substantive content, but rather, it was filled with rant and presented history in a manner that may give the impression of significance or imparted knowledge to all of us.

Your initial post is filled with hypothetical scenarios. You even went as far as to wager your anatomical body parts. When individuals resort to betting their anatomical parts, it becomes evident that they are not to be taken seriously.:

"Let’s think of a hypothetical scenario, Today if let’s say Muslims are kicked out of that land by Jews and Jews live in that area for 30-40 years. Then a war breaks out which Jews lose and Saudi Arabia wins. Then Saudi Arabia decide to bring back Muslims back to that area as the victor of the war, I will bet my left pinkie, we won’t have a 10 page thread on PP condemning that action of Saudi Arabia."

TThe above quote is a hypothetical scenario that you have created to support your argument, suggesting that since it has happened before and might happen again, then what? Does that hypothetical scenario make the genocide in Gaza somewhat acceptable?

Oh but this one take the cake:
"The thing you and most people in the world fail to understand is that war is old, rich and powerful men sending others to die. The whole conflict is making the rich richer, whether it be due to supplying weapons or shorting share market due to war, or making billions through inflation. The rich are getting richer while the poor suffer.

That’s how it’s always been and always will be, Hamas top leadership is not fighting for Palestinians they are fighting for their own power, Israel leadership is doing the same and western countries supplying weapons etc are doing for their own.

Sooner people realise that the better it is, since then the normal folks who just was a good life can pressurise for what they actually want a good life.
"

Oh, absolutely! It's not like anyone else on the planet could have possibly come to such a profound realization.

But this one is my fav:
"Religion and fear are two most important tools the powerful use to blind the masses. And they will continue using these tools for next hundreds of years."

Another stellar insight! I'm sure none of us would have ever grasped that concept if it weren't for your enlightening words. Perhaps those enduring the horrors in Gaza should just accept their fate because, hey, history might repeat itself, and we wouldn't want anyone risking their pinky finger, right?

Your contributions thus far have been sorely lacking in insight or education on this matter.

There's a genocide occurring, and the only voices worth hearing are those of the 'normal people,' as you so eloquently put it. They should be demanding an end to the atrocities, much like many of us already are. Why not give it a try?
.
 
I don't believe all of the people claiming that they originated from that land actually originated from that land because I see a major flaw in the definition of being Jewish. The definition is mainly based on the bible and I don't believe in it as a factual text.

When you look at genetics and ancestry you get a different picture.

Many of the Jews of that time have converted to Christianity or Islam too. Some of the Palestinians are ethnically on that land from generations traced all the way back through history.

I don't think the modern jews should have been given a country in Palestine as a way for the Europeans to pass what they seen as a Jewish problem to somewhere else. They should have made proper atonement for the crimes of the holocaust by making Jews equal citizens in Europe rather than wipe their hands clean by shifting elsewhere.

However now that Israel is created the people who are born there elong there and cannot be removed.

My point is that conflating ethnicity and religion makes the thing more complex. It would be like during partition of India that Hindus of Indonesia or Cambodia were given land in India because they shared the same religion..makes no sense at all.


Will reply tomorrow. Thanks for making your stance clear.
 
So it's a culture based on religion.......
The religious aspect plays a significant role on culture. Not as significant as Islam does. But any Sindhi who attends a Tamil or Marathi festival can see a ton of similarities.
 
I want to clarify that I don't subscribe to the ahistorical view that the Palestinian-Israel conflict is a continuous struggle between Arabs and Jews extending back into the mists of time. Rather, it's something rooted in the modern era and can only be understood in the age of nationalism. As Sholomo Avineri, an Israeli political scientist, put it: "European nationalism in the 19th century made Jews strangers or foreigners for the first time... Modern European nationalism therefore created a different identity for the Jews. And when Jewish nationalism developed, it was very much a mirror image of European nationalism."

Nationalism is a modern ideology. While it's tempting to read back into history contemporary realities and think that nations and nationalism are natural and have always existed, scholars agree that it's a modern phenomenon. Ernest Gellner, a famous anthropologist, said: "Nationalism tends to treat itself as a manifest and self-evident principle... when in fact it owes its plausibility and compelling nature only to a very special set of circumstances."

Inherited myths, symbols, memories, values, and traditions shape nations and nationalism, but all nations are artificial constructions. Benedict Anderson, author of a famous book on nationalism, said: "Communities are to be distinguished, not by their falsity/genuineness, but by the style in which they are imagined."

While both Pakistan and Israel based their nationalities on religious belonging, we need to go deeper. In Israel's case, 'romantic' notions of blood and soil were critical, unlike Muslim nationalism in India. Gandhi wrote to Jinnah: "I find no parallel in history for a body of converts and their descendants claiming to be a nation apart from the parent stock." Jinnah responded: "We have our own distinctive outlook on life and of life." M.R.A. Baig, Jinnah's secretary, wrote that Jinnah believed nationalism was subjective, founded on the "power of faith."

In the case of pro-Israel movements, a similar argument appeared. Theodor Herzl wrote in his diary: "Were I to sum up the Basel Congress in a word... it would be this: at Basel I founded the Jewish State... The foundation of a State lies in the will of the people for a State... Territory is only the material basis; the State... is always something abstract." This stresses volition, but pro-Israel movements were also animated by romantic notions of blood and soil. Even Herzl said Jewishness had "nothing to do with religion" and all Jews "are of the same race." Sholomo Sand's book, "The Invention of the Jewish People," caused controversy as it unsettles the founding narrative of Israel. The land in Israel is seen by many pro-Israel supporters as ancestral, uniquely 'theirs,' and religiously sacred. This makes pro-Israel movements more similar to European forms of nationalism than Muslim nationalism in India. So, pointing to religious commonality between both nations is fine, but stopping there oversimplifies the comparison.
 
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Sure, let's get personal.

Firstly, I invite you to pinpoint instances where I may have exhibited traits associated with an extremist mindset, and I appreciate any evidence you can provide to substantiate your claim. Thank you

What change would you like me to adopt to bring about an end to the genocide?


Concerning human life, I am actively advocating and consistently reiterating the necessity to end the genocide unconditionally. What greater display of respect for human life, especially that of children, could there be? Now, could you please identify any instances within my 184 posts where human life has been disrespected? Thank you.

Now, let's return to your post, to which I regretfully chose to reply. Not because the post contained any substantive content, but rather, it was filled with rant and presented history in a manner that may give the impression of significance or imparted knowledge to all of us.

Your initial post is filled with hypothetical scenarios. You even went as far as to wager your anatomical body parts. When individuals resort to betting their anatomical parts, it becomes evident that they are not to be taken seriously.:

"Let’s think of a hypothetical scenario, Today if let’s say Muslims are kicked out of that land by Jews and Jews live in that area for 30-40 years. Then a war breaks out which Jews lose and Saudi Arabia wins. Then Saudi Arabia decide to bring back Muslims back to that area as the victor of the war, I will bet my left pinkie, we won’t have a 10 page thread on PP condemning that action of Saudi Arabia."

TThe above quote is a hypothetical scenario that you have created to support your argument, suggesting that since it has happened before and might happen again, then what? Does that hypothetical scenario make the genocide in Gaza somewhat acceptable?

Oh but this one take the cake:
"The thing you and most people in the world fail to understand is that war is old, rich and powerful men sending others to die. The whole conflict is making the rich richer, whether it be due to supplying weapons or shorting share market due to war, or making billions through inflation. The rich are getting richer while the poor suffer.

That’s how it’s always been and always will be, Hamas top leadership is not fighting for Palestinians they are fighting for their own power, Israel leadership is doing the same and western countries supplying weapons etc are doing for their own.

Sooner people realise that the better it is, since then the normal folks who just was a good life can pressurise for what they actually want a good life.
"

Oh, absolutely! It's not like anyone else on the planet could have possibly come to such a profound realization.

But this one is my fav:
"Religion and fear are two most important tools the powerful use to blind the masses. And they will continue using these tools for next hundreds of years."

Another stellar insight! I'm sure none of us would have ever grasped that concept if it weren't for your enlightening words. Perhaps those enduring the horrors in Gaza should just accept their fate because, hey, history might repeat itself, and we wouldn't want anyone risking their pinky finger, right?

Your contributions thus far have been sorely lacking in insight or education on this matter.

There's a genocide occurring, and the only voices worth hearing are those of the 'normal people,' as you so eloquently put it. They should be demanding an end to the atrocities, much like many of us already are. Why not give it a try?
.

I have already posted multiple times in other thread. Go read up.

Your value of human life is selective based on your religious affiliation.
You deflect when innocent Israelis are raped and killed. IDF kills innocent children that justifies Hamas doing the same?

Until you value Human life without any prejudice, people on the other side as you will use the same argument to justify Israels attrocities.

After multiple posts pointing it out you choose to ignore it again and again.
 
Except they haven't. Israel prides itself on being ultra liberal and actually oppresses the ultra orthodox.

Pakistan was a haven for preexisting people subjugated by the Hindu majority.

There's very little similarity apart from the fact they're formed around the same time.

Why has the Jewish diaspora still living around the world not gone home ?.
comedy gold right there.

There is claim of ruling over the Hindus for thousand years, followed by Brits ruling over India

So when exactly was muslim subjugated by Hindus?

The whole making stuff up as you go along makes it difficult take guys like you seriously.
 
I have already posted multiple times in other thread. Go read up.

Your value of human life is selective based on your religious affiliation.
You deflect when innocent Israelis are raped and killed. IDF kills innocent children that justifies Hamas doing the same?

Until you value Human life without any prejudice, people on the other side as you will use the same argument to justify Israels attrocities.

After multiple posts pointing it out you choose to ignore it again and again.
Once again, I unequivocally declare that I will condemn Hamas or any individual who commits rape, as any morally upright individual would do.

All I have requested is credible evidence, yet none of you have been able to provide it.

Two days ago, the AP had debunked the initial rape charges. I suggest you read up on it

Israel has a habit of disseminating news as truth to justify their actions of harming innocent civilians. I recommend doing some research on this. What happened to beheading of 40 babies in Israel?

You haven't offered anything substantial apart from presenting historical events as if they were new revelations.

If I didn't value life, I would be advocating for a ceasefire? Unlike Hindutva or individuals with an Indian perspective such as yourself, who seem to find any excuse to justify the killing of innocent children through 2000 lbs bombs.

There is no prejudice in my stance just as their is no prejudice millions other non-muslims asking for ceasefire and end of genocide.

ONLY HINDUTVA or INDIANS ON THIS FORUM ARE JUSTIFYING VIOLENCE AND BEHEADING OF BABIES BECAUSE BABIES ARE MUSLIM. NOW THAT IS PREJUDICE.

Do not evade the issue like a weasel. Address where I've displayed extremist traits. You accused me; now own up to it, buddy!
 
I don't believe all of the people claiming that they originated from that land actually originated from that land because I see a major flaw in the definition of being Jewish. The definition is mainly based on the bible and I don't believe in it as a factual text.

When you look at genetics and ancestry you get a different picture.

Many of the Jews of that time have converted to Christianity or Islam too. Some of the Palestinians are ethnically on that land from generations traced all the way back through history.

I don't think the modern jews should have been given a country in Palestine as a way for the Europeans to pass what they seen as a Jewish problem to somewhere else. They should have made proper atonement for the crimes of the holocaust by making Jews equal citizens in Europe rather than wipe their hands clean by shifting elsewhere.

However now that Israel is created the people who are born there elong there and cannot be removed.

My point is that conflating ethnicity and religion makes the thing more complex. It would be like during partition of India that Hindus of Indonesia or Cambodia were given land in India because they shared the same religion..makes no sense at all.


The problem is the whole conflict is Religion based and not ethnicity or culture based. Jews consider that place as holy to their religion and want to live in that land.

If the conflict was based on ethnicity rather than religion we wouldn’t have been discussing here.
 
Once again, I unequivocally declare that I will condemn Hamas or any individual who commits rape, as any morally upright individual would do.

All I have requested is credible evidence, yet none of you have been able to provide it.

Two days ago, the AP had debunked the initial rape charges. I suggest you read up on it

Israel has a habit of disseminating news as truth to justify their actions of harming innocent civilians. I recommend doing some research on this. What happened to beheading of 40 babies in Israel?

You haven't offered anything substantial apart from presenting historical events as if they were new revelations.

If I didn't value life, I would be advocating for a ceasefire? Unlike Hindutva or individuals with an Indian perspective such as yourself, who seem to find any excuse to justify the killing of innocent children through 2000 lbs bombs.

There is no prejudice in my stance just as their is no prejudice millions other non-muslims asking for ceasefire and end of genocide.

ONLY HINDUTVA or INDIANS ON THIS FORUM ARE JUSTIFYING VIOLENCE AND BEHEADING OF BABIES BECAUSE BABIES ARE MUSLIM. NOW THAT IS PREJUDICE.

Do not evade the issue like a weasel. Address where I've displayed extremist traits. You accused me; now own up to it, buddy!

When the video was posted by @Hitman if you would have just quoted it by saying the first sentence you used in this post, we wouldn’t have been discussing this would we?
How difficult was it to condemn?

When someone posts a video showing atrocities against fellow humans you have 4 options:


1. You condemn it
2. You ignore the post
3. You deflect it by showing atrocities committed by the other side first. Which looks like you justify it.
4. You use any excuse to justify it.

You chose option 3 instead of 1, which is to be expected from any decent human being.
When pointed out multiple times you choose to keep deflecting/ignoring what was being asked. Finally after multiple posts you decide to own up and condemn.

Once it was initially pointed out you deflected, you could have said “I got carried away in emotions, I wholeheartedly condemn the action of Hamas.” And then proceeded to carry talking about atrocities of Israel in subsequent posts.


Unlike you, I have always condemned the action of Israel killing innocents. If you quote me in any post showing atrocities of Israel or anyone else where innocents are killed, I will condemn, be it Israel, Hamas or even India.

I don’t pick and choose human lives based on religion, ethnicity, sex, region etc

Any innocent life lost due to politics is equally sad and should be condemned.

What exactly substantial do you expect on a Pakistani forum in regards to Israel-Palestine conflict?
This is a forum, we discuss various issues, there is nothing substantial which comes out from these forums for gully cricket let alone a world conflict.

Also, what are you trying to do here? Assuming what you say about people you classify as Hindutva Indians is true, they won’t change nor would they agree with you. So what is your end goal with these posts?
 
The problem is the whole conflict is Religion based and not ethnicity or culture based. Jews consider that place as holy to their religion and want to live in that land.

If the conflict was based on ethnicity rather than religion we wouldn’t have been discussing here.
What gives them the right to?

They don't just want to live in that land they claim historic ownership of it.

I'm not sure how they claim ownership based on this but kick out Palestinian Muslims and Christians who have cultural and ethnic ties to the area for centuries.

There is a real double standard and it seems like people don't understand the intricacies of the situation. Hence why you have comments about Muslims kicking them out from the land.
 
What gives them the right to?

They don't just want to live in that land they claim historic ownership of it.

I'm not sure how they claim ownership based on this but kick out Palestinian Muslims and Christians who have cultural and ethnic ties to the area for centuries.

That’s what I meant, they believe historically they have right to that land based on their religion.

They believe they (ancestors) were wronged when more powerful kingdoms took land from them.

Now they are the powerful ones and are doing the same, what others did to them centuries ago.
 
That’s what I meant, they believe historically they have right to that land based on their religion.

They believe they (ancestors) were wronged when more powerful kingdoms took land from them.

Now they are the powerful ones and are doing the same, what others did to them centuries ago.
Well we don't need to accept what they think do we.

These things can be challenged and spoken about and double standards highlighted. Of course ultimately the powerful will retain their power by any means necessary but as normal people we have the ability to analyse what they are doing? Even if the only outcome is that we are able to see the naked emperor whilst the rest of the world marvels at his new clothes.

And you mentioned "done to them". Who is the "them" here? I have asked you a few times if you accept that every Jewish person alive today is the descendent of those thrown out by the Romans and Christians in ancient times? Do you believe this?
 
Well we don't need to accept what they think do we.

These things can be challenged and spoken about and double standards highlighted. Of course ultimately the powerful will retain their power by any means necessary but as normal people we have the ability to analyse what they are doing? Even if the only outcome is that we are able to see the naked emperor whilst the rest of the world marvels at his new clothes.

And you mentioned "done to them". Who is the "them" here? I have asked you a few times if you accept that every Jewish person alive today is the descendent of those thrown out by the Romans and Christians in ancient times? Do you believe this?

Well most people here have already condemned and don’t agree with Israels actions.

Them = Jews.
For Jews they believe and think same ways as a lot of Muslims do, where they are emotionally vested with others of their religion even if they don’t have anything common with them.

Since you asked me personally, I don’t relate to religious affiliation the same way as Jews or Muslims or other Hindus do.
If a Hindu achieves success, I don’t claim it as my own success or take pride in it unlike some people of various religions do.
 
When the video was posted by @Hitman if you would have just quoted it by saying the first sentence you used in this post, we wouldn’t have been discussing this would we?
How difficult was it to condemn?

When someone posts a video showing atrocities against fellow humans you have 4 options:


1. You condemn it
2. You ignore the post
3. You deflect it by showing atrocities committed by the other side first. Which looks like you justify it.
4. You use any excuse to justify it.

You chose option 3 instead of 1, which is to be expected from any decent human being.
When pointed out multiple times you choose to keep deflecting/ignoring what was being asked. Finally after multiple posts you decide to own up and condemn.

Once it was initially pointed out you deflected, you could have said “I got carried away in emotions, I wholeheartedly condemn the action of Hamas.” And then proceeded to carry talking about atrocities of Israel in subsequent posts.


Unlike you, I have always condemned the action of Israel killing innocents. If you quote me in any post showing atrocities of Israel or anyone else where innocents are killed, I will condemn, be it Israel, Hamas or even India.

I don’t pick and choose human lives based on religion, ethnicity, sex, region etc

Any innocent life lost due to politics is equally sad and should be condemned.

What exactly substantial do you expect on a Pakistani forum in regards to Israel-Palestine conflict?
This is a forum, we discuss various issues, there is nothing substantial which comes out from these forums for gully cricket let alone a world conflict.

Also, what are you trying to do here? Assuming what you say about people you classify as Hindutva Indians is true, they won’t change nor would they agree with you. So what is your end goal with these posts?
You do not know me long enough, or at all, to pass judgment on me regarding human lives, nor do any of my comments suggest that I am selective in speaking out on human suffering. So, if you are going to accuse me of that, please provide evidence. Thanks.

Reminding Hindutva followers on a thread titled "Hindutva Support for Gaza Genocide" after the video posted by Hindutva to justify their support for the genocide in Gaza, that the IDF does the same and even worse, is not a deflection.

Saying "great job" to H guys would imply support for rape or whatever you are accusing me of. Asking for evidence of sexual violence is not supporting sexual violence; it is rather questioning it, since Israel has a habit of putting out news to justify the killing of innocents and then claiming it was not true. AP, a couple of days ago, debunked it. Any evidence provided by Israel to continue the genocide can't be believed anymore, and Israel is to be blamed for it.

The rest of your post is just a rant, and you are trying to understand why people on a forum discuss various topics. I ain't going to make you understand that.
 
I always see when people say the people then voted for it, but sorry to say what votes?

Who created the line? How was the line without Kartarpur.

I do agree that South Asians overall are much more peaceful compared to Middle east and Europeans, if they were Pakistan and India there would be a war everyday.
 
I always see when people say the people then voted for it, but sorry to say what votes?

Who created the line? How was the line without Kartarpur.

I do agree that South Asians overall are much more peaceful compared to Middle east and Europeans, if they were Pakistan and India there would be a war everyday.
Well Pakistan is being nice and handing it back so...
 
Abul kalam azad propagated for pak but not joined pak.Instead he became the first education minister of india.He must be either power hungry or very good at choosing the sides.He was a staunch gandhi follower as a fact too.
 
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