The elephant in the room - the Pakistan pace attack

[Xoib]

Our pace attack.

We have unlucky Amir unfir Sohial and spray gun Wahab then there is Rahat and Wahab on the bench none of these scream out as leader of an attack We need to find a group of good aggressive young pacers and please bring back yorkes and reverse swing in Pakistani pacers arsenal.

 

[Speedster777]

Selectors and captain are responsible for this loss. Their pathetic selection of unfit and brainless bowlers cost them this series.

 

[Speedster777]

I would disband the entire bowling unit and replace them with:

Asif
Muhammad Abbass
Ali Imran pasha/ Atif Jabbar
Mir Hamza
Ghulam Mudassar
Sadaf Hussein
Hassan Ali

 

[Syed1]

Even an elephant has a little bit of finesse and pzazz about it.

This pace attack is like a sloth, useless and mundane.


Heads need to roll.

 

[Madplayer]

Pakistan needs right arm fast bowlers. Historically, Left armers have always been included to provide variety to the attack. Right arm fast bowlers should make the bulk of your pace battery. Left armers become pretty much useless if the wicket is flat and they dont bowl 145+. Add to this that most batsmen are right handers so right arm fast bowlers always have a better chance of getting them lbw and bowled.

Pakistan's army of left arm fast bowlers in domestic cricket is causing much trouble to the selectors.

Hasan ali would need to be picked now. He looks decent.

 

[Xoib]

for our next round of away tours Wahab,Rahat,Imran and Sohial will be too old we need to select a core of 4-5 pacers all under 25 average pace 140 and please bring back the yorkers and reverse swing back.

 

[Gilly]

Come on they did get eight wickets in this test.

The PCB has lodged a complaint with the ICC

A unknown PCB insider has claimed that the PCB were informed that the Australian batsmen removed the edges from their bats so that Amir could not get them out. The insider said that one of the dressing room cleaners found several bat edges in the trash can in the Australian dressing room. Arthur is said to be fuming and has statistics to back up the claim with no less than 47 of Amirs balls missing the edge which should have been edged to slip and wicketkeeper.

The PCB is demanding a meeting with the match referee and wants the Australian players ( allegedly Warner, Usman, Smith and Starc) sanctioned and their bats checked to see if they have edges. Several Pakistan players are rumoured to be protesting in the SCG test by removing their middle from their bats ( Younis will only do it after he gets 10,000 runs) and Wahab said he bad with a pad.

Australia have denied the claim and a spokesperson from CA said although there were edges in the trash they were only some of Warners edges but he still had quite a few on his bat, Warner said if he removed all his edges he could not hit any bondries so it would be useless for him to remove them.

More to come.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Come on they did get eight wickets in this test.

The PCB has lodged a complaint with the ICC

A unknown PCB insider has claimed that the PCB were informed that the Australian batsmen removed the edges from their bats so that Amir could not get them out. The insider said that one of the dressing room cleaners found several bat edges in the trash can in the Australian dressing room. Arthur is said to be fuming and has statistics to back up the claim with no less than 47 of Amirs balls missing the edge which should have been edged to slip and wicketkeeper.

The PCB is demanding a meeting with the match referee and wants the Australian players ( allegedly Warner, Usman, Smith and Starc) sanctioned and their bats checked to see if they have edges. Several Pakistan players are rumoured to be protesting in the SCG test by removing their middle from their bats ( Younis will only do it after he gets 10,000 runs) and Wahab said he bad with a pad.

Australia have denied the claim and a spokesperson from CA said although there were edges in the trash they were only some of Warners edges but he still had quite a few on his bat, Warner said if he removed all his edges he could not hit any bondries so it would be useless for him to remove them.

More to come.

This would've been funny if Pakistanis would actually have been making excuses. Most of us are congratulating Australia and verbally slaughtering our own team so what do you want? Do you want us to start calling you guys the victors before the series begins?

 

[Junaids]

Amir and Wahab have both been good in patches.

The problem with Wahab has been that he has been badly used, like Steve Smith used Mitchell Johnson.

Michael Clarke gave Mitch Johnson very attacking fields and bowled him in 4 over spells, sometimes even 3 over spells. Misbah overbowls Wahab Riaz because he won't pick a 4th seamer.

 

[Varun]

Pakistan's bowling attack has always been severely overrated on PP. When have they ever won a game, any format, any conditions?

It's almost as if since India is a bonafide batting country, Pakistani fans want a strong suit of their own, hence they've applied this fragile label of 'best bowling attack' on themselves when they're nowhere near.

And when questioned about this you get some plastic retorts such as, "Ha ha look who's talking Mr. Kumar and Mr. Sharma", "Says the guy who has Dinda leading the attack", when in reality they should be competing with the likes of Steyn, Anderson, Starc if they're the supposed best in the world.

 

[Vivek_86]

This would've been funny if Pakistanis would actually have been making excuses. Most of us are congratulating Australia and verbally slaughtering our own team so what do you want? Do you want us to start calling you guys the victors before the series begins?

This was against people defending Amir and not against Pakistan. If I am not wrong , they're still defending him.

 

[JaDed]

This match has been lost due to your batting,50 overs 10 wickets nothing major in the pitch ,started reversing much later.

 

[asfandyar]

The number of pacers averaging < 30 in the squad = 0. Yet, the talent of Amir, the pace of Wahab and the unlucky peaches of Rahat Ali are worth dying for

 

[Gilly]

This would've been funny if Pakistanis would actually have been making excuses. Most of us are congratulating Australia and verbally slaughtering our own team so what do you want? Do you want us to start calling you guys the victors before the series begins?

So if Pakistan were leading the series 2-0 don't you think there would be thread after thread mocking the aussies.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

So if Pakistan were leading the series 2-0 don't you think there would be thread after thread mocking the aussies.

Nope. There wouldn't have been.

 

[Varun]

Even an elephant has a little bit of finesse and pzazz about it.

This pace attack is like a sloth, useless and mundane.


Heads need to roll.

Just to be pedantic - the phrase "the elephant in the room" has little to do with the qualities of the elephant bar its size and visibility.

 

[asfandyar]

Pakistan's bowling attack has always been severely overrated on PP. When have they ever won a game, any format, any conditions?

It's almost as if since India is a bonafide batting country, Pakistani fans want a strong suit of their own, hence they've applied this fragile label of 'best bowling attack' on themselves when they're nowhere near.

And when questioned about this you get some plastic retorts such as, "Ha ha look who's talking Mr. Kumar and Mr. Sharma", "Says the guy who has Dinda leading the attack", when in reality they should be competing with the likes of Steyn, Anderson, Starc if they're the supposed best in the world.

Actually, people judge India's bowling resources based on the money and finances involved in their domestic setup. The financial powerhouse that BCCI is, they have miserably failed to find even a single pace attack combination that can compete with the likes of Steyn, Anderson and Starc. As with Pakistan, we have never found a test class bowler after Asif, and that is partly justifiable by the corruption in the cricket board that does not let the money reach the grass root level (compare salaries for FC cricketers for both). India is currently miles ahead of Pakistan in batting, bowling and fielding, that is the truth. But the ratio of finances to talent outflow (at least in pace bowling) has been unsatisfactory.

 

[Vivek_86]

Actually, people judge India's bowling resources based on the money and finances involved in their domestic setup. The financial powerhouse that BCCI is, they have miserably failed to find even a single pace attack combination that can compete with the likes of Steyn, Anderson and Starc. As with Pakistan, we have never found a test class bowler after Asif, and that is partly justifiable by the corruption in the cricket board that does not let the money reach the grass root level (compare salaries for FC cricketers for both). India is currently miles ahead of Pakistan in batting, bowling and fielding, that is the truth. But the ratio of finances to talent outflow (at least in pace bowling) has been unsatisfactory.

Money can't buy talent. It has to be culturally cultivated. India never had fast bowling culture. So it is foolish to expect bowlers just coz it had money. US could be the most powerful in every sports if that's the criteria

 

[sjahmed23]

We will circle back to the same players once again after a short time.

 

[Madplayer]

So if Pakistan were leading the series 2-0 don't you think there would be thread after thread mocking the aussies.

I thought u didnt believe in "would be should be could be".

 

[Gilly]

I thought u didnt believe in "would be should be could be".

It was a rhetorical question.

 

[KhalidRafi]

Amir and Wahab have both been good in patches.

The problem with Wahab has been that he has been badly used, like Steve Smith used Mitchell Johnson.

Michael Clarke gave Mitch Johnson very attacking fields and bowled him in 4 over spells, sometimes even 3 over spells. Misbah overbowls Wahab Riaz because he won't pick a 4th seamer.

There is no fourth seamer to pick. The biggest flaw in this team, for a long time, has been the lack of an all-rounder who can seam the ball. In UAE, Misbah can get Yasir to bowl alot of overs which slightly reduces the work-load from the three seamers. In England, he was able to get away with it. But in Australia, this was bound to happen because Yasir was never going to be effective here. Problem is , that there is no one in the domestic circuit who has done anything to deserve a place in the team.

 

[KhalidRafi]

Can't believe I was defending this bowling attack a few weeks ago and calling it one of the best in Test cricket. These pop-gun bowlers are utterly useless. Never thought I'd see the day Pakistan lost a Test match by an innings after scoring nearly 450 in the first innings.

 

[proud_pakistani]

Asif, Aamir and Junaid Khan should be given a go as the front line 3 pacers with Hassan Ali as back up. Wahab needs to go to domestic and work on his no ball and wrist position problems to really be a front line bowler for Pakistan.

 

[Gilly]

Asif, Aamir and Junaid Khan should be given a go as the front line 3 pacers with Hassan Ali as back up. Wahab needs to go to domestic and work on his no ball and wrist position problems to really be a front line bowler for Pakistan.

Wahab is not going to get better, what you see is what you get. Bringing back Asif is just repeating the same mistake. Pakistan have nothing in the bowling department and need to start from scratch to develop a squad of young bowlers and rotate them through the team to give experience and see who can handle the grind of international cricket. It will take time and it will mean plenty of losses but regurgitating the same bowlers will give the same results.

 

[Junaids]

There is no fourth seamer to pick. The biggest flaw in this team, for a long time, has been the lack of an all-rounder who can seam the ball. In UAE, Misbah can get Yasir to bowl alot of overs which slightly reduces the work-load from the three seamers. In England, he was able to get away with it. But in Australia, this was bound to happen because Yasir was never going to be effective here. Problem is , that there is no one in the domestic circuit who has done anything to deserve a place in the team.

Well, two things there.

Pakistan made zero effort to groom Aamer Yamin or Amad Butt in the 4 Pakistan A Tests in England and Zimbabwe this year. Or Fahim Ashraf. Or Hammad Azam.

Secondly, when Australia went for the 7 left-handers batting line-up, this opened up a surprise option for Pakistan. Pick a batsman who can bowl off-spin to bat at Number 6 - Mohammad Hafeez (yes, I know) or Iftikhar Ali.

I don't rate Hafeez as a batsman and I don't rate off-spin in general.

But Pakistan had options to keep Amir and Wahab fresh and fast, and they ignored them, as if they were playing to the Misbah script.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Can't believe I was defending this bowling attack a few weeks ago and calling it one of the best in Test cricket. These pop-gun bowlers are utterly useless. Never thought I'd see the day Pakistan lost a Test match by an innings after scoring nearly 450 in the first innings.

The problem with you pakistanis ( and us asians) is, you all start beating your chest and crying once your team loses. Its a game, someone has to lose. Give them time, the same set of players( hopefully minus younis and misbah) would perform.

 

[Junaids]

Can't believe I was defending this bowling attack a few weeks ago and calling it one of the best in Test cricket. These pop-gun bowlers are utterly useless. Never thought I'd see the day Pakistan lost a Test match by an innings after scoring nearly 450 in the first innings.

Oh please!

14 wickets fell to the bowlers in 4 days.

It was an impossible, dead wicket.

The problem was that Misbah turned a dead-cert draw into a loss with his hopeless fielding positions and bowling lines, and then by he and Younis being unable to survive with the bat against the old ball.

At least Sami and Babar fell to the new ball. Younis and Misbah were too old to survive against the old ball on a dead wicket.

 

[Justcrazy]

You cannot have a four bowler strategy working for you everywhere.

You need to play either 4 bowlers and one all rounder .

or

3 bowlers and two all rounders.

 

[Indiafan]

Nope. There wouldn't have been.

After Pakistan's first innings there was already a thread about demoralizing Aussies

 

[Idrees1990]

Wahab is not going to get better, what you see is what you get. Bringing back Asif is just repeating the same mistake. Pakistan have nothing in the bowling department and need to start from scratch to develop a squad of young bowlers and rotate them through the team to give experience and see who can handle the grind of international cricket. It will take time and it will mean plenty of losses but regurgitating the same bowlers will give the same results.

How is bringing back asif is repeating the same mistake? Name a bowler from past 6 years who is better than him. I agree that Wahab is just a hype with zero technique. He does a one good spell every 5 years and that keep him in the team. smh

 

[yasir]

Wahab is not going to get better, what you see is what you get. Bringing back Asif is just repeating the same mistake. Pakistan have nothing in the bowling department and need to start from scratch to develop a squad of young bowlers and rotate them through the team to give experience and see who can handle the grind of international cricket. It will take time and it will mean plenty of losses but regurgitating the same bowlers will give the same results.

Weather people like it or not Amir still is the best Pakistani pacer ATM. Even though he did not took many wickets, but was bowling consistently well, others were too rubish. Asif would have helped, if they planned his return around time of England series...Pakistan doubled down on two 40 years old batsmen, that failed miserably in the end. Maybe doubly down on two known fast bowlers would have worked.

Again there is nothing in the pipeline right now ( in bowling department), also if you can bring Sohail who is 34 years old, why not Asif, who was world class bowler 5 five years ago and is of same age.

 

[Gilly]

How is bringing back asif is repeating the same mistake? Name a bowler from past 6 years who is better than him. I agree that Wahab is just a hype with zero technique. He does a one good spell every 5 years and that keep him in the team. smh

What I mean by repeating the same mistake is that Asif will offer no longevity, you may get a couple of years if he can perform ( look at the hype about how good Amir was going to be ) but because of age will decline and guess what in two years it will be back to square one again. My opinion is Asif is the wrong character you want new up and coming bowlers to associate with. Plus on top of that I don't think Asif will be any good, he will find international cricket a bit different to domestic and add to Pak's problems more than solve them.

 

[kingusama92]

I have this repeatedly and I'll mention it again.

On what basis can anyone claim the FC stats leaders (i.e. Mohammad Abbas, Mir Hamza etc.) are rubbish when they've never been given a chance?

You often hear people state "stats are deceiving" and perhaps they're right. However, you have to test the theory before proving it right or wrong.

The only way you can ignore FC leaders with the best bowling averages is if the bowlers you select are doing well at the international level. Instead, we have absolute rubbish representing Pakistan at the highest level and somehow they're better than those domestic performers!

It boggles the mind.

Play the guys who deserve it on merit and then see how things turn out. They won't be worse than the inconsistent players representing Pakistan right now anyway.

This is where the saying, "Keep it simple stupid" applies.

Plus, by picking those who are performing, you are sending a message that merit is applied when selecting players. This will ensure the next wave of fast bowlers will work hard knowing it's all about performance rather than nepotism, corruption, and downright random selection.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Actually, people judge India's bowling resources based on the money and finances involved in their domestic setup. The financial powerhouse that BCCI is, they have miserably failed to find even a single pace attack combination that can compete with the likes of Steyn, Anderson and Starc. As with Pakistan, we have never found a test class bowler after Asif, and that is partly justifiable by the corruption in the cricket board that does not let the money reach the grass root level (compare salaries for FC cricketers for both). India is currently miles ahead of Pakistan in batting, bowling and fielding, that is the truth. But the ratio of finances to talent outflow (at least in pace bowling) has been unsatisfactory.

Agreed.

That said, all subcontinental countries massively underperform relative to population and lack of any other dominant sport.

India have at least gotten to the stage where they are pretty consistently in the top 3 across all formats but that is still underperformance.

Money can't buy talent. It has to be culturally cultivated. India never had fast bowling culture. So it is foolish to expect bowlers just coz it had money. US could be the most powerful in every sports if that's the criteria

US is the most powerful across sports.

 

[pakteam#1]

There should be atleast one allrounder playing in every eleven. Or may be two allrounders. One spinner and one medium pacer. The selecters and team mgmt say there are no good allrounders, well if you dont give chances how will the players improve. There are good pacers available they have to be given chances to learn and improve. They pick the wrong players for the wrong format. Sohail khan fast bowler is ideal for t20 and one days. He comes in bowls 4 overs or 10 overs and swings his bat slogs some. And now he is dropped from one days and t20 team. He just scored 65. He has the ability to score. So play him in t20 and one days. Fawad alam play him in test. Usman salahuddin test match. Fakhar zaman not selected in one days.
Pick the right players for the right format. Rotate the players so the younger ones learn and improve with the internationals.

 

[Vivek_86]

US is the most powerful across sports.

Football? Tennis? Rugby? They're not world class in either of them . If money was the criteria , they'd have been ruling each of them.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Football? Tennis? Rugby? They're not world class in either of them . If money was the criteria , they'd have been ruling each of them.

Football - consistent top 16 for a very long time now.

Tennis - Serena Williams? Sampras? Bryans? 4 players in the top 30 amongst men even now. 6 in the top 40 amongst women. They missed out on the big 4 in the previous generation of men's tennis but have 5 of the top 10 u21s. If they are not world class, who is?

Rugby - American football is a much bigger sport than rugby (in monetary terms). Even college football is bigger in rugby.

 

[Vivek_86]

Football - consistent top 16 for a very long time now.

Tennis - Serena Williams? Sampras? Bryans? 4 players in the top 30 amongst men even now. 6 in the top 40 amongst women. They missed out on the big 4 in the previous generation of men's tennis but have 5 of the top 10 u21s. If they are not world class, who is?

Rugby - American football is a much bigger sport than rugby (in monetary terms). Even college football is bigger in rugby.

Football - let's take the rankings out of argument. They're are a mediocre team and not a footballing super power.

Tennis - Serena only and competiton in women's tennis is a joke. No male player in the recent history . And what is stopping them from producing now? Coz other countries have their best generation.

Rugby - its not about monetary benefits. Its about the talent in sports that are relatively popular all among the world.

The main point is , if we are to include their financial power , what is stopping them from being a global super power in those sports??
So having money or population is not a guarantee for excellence in sports.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Football - let's take the rankings out of argument. They're are a mediocre team and not a footballing super power.

Tennis - Serena only and competiton in women's tennis is a joke. No male player in the recent history . And what is stopping them from producing now? Coz other countries have their best generation.

Rugby - its not about monetary benefits. Its about the talent in sports that are relatively popular all among the world.

The main point is , if we are to include their financial power , what is stopping them from being a global super power in those sports??
So having money or population is not a guarantee for excellence in sports.

Vivek, I think you are missing the point.

Americans don't care about rugby and never will. American football is the most popular team sport in the US, which means rugby will never take off.

Similar to baseball / cricket.

They have had multiple top 10/20 players on the men's side in recent years. Only Spain has more top 40 level players. If women's tennis is such a joke, why has noone been able to beat Serena for two decades now. With individual sports, strength is depth is the best sign of the quality of the system. Freak talents can and will emerge anywhere.

Football (soccer) is the 5th most popular team sport. It is the #1 in the rest of the world. Despite that, they have reached the world cup knockout stages in the 3 of the last 4 editions and finished 4th in the latest Copa America.

#1 in golf.

#1 in basketball.

#1 in ice hockey.

#1 in most and overall Olympic sports.

#1 in winter sports + extreme sports.

#1 in professional boxing.

top 3 in volleyball


$$$ + population + sporting culture and facilities = success.

 

[kingusama92]

Vivek, I think you are missing the point.

Americans don't care about rugby and never will. American football is the most popular team sport in the US, which means rugby will never take off.

Similar to baseball / cricket.

They have had multiple top 10/20 players on the men's side in recent years. Only Spain has more top 40 level players. If women's tennis is such a joke, why has noone been able to beat Serena for two decades now. With individual sports, strength is depth is the best sign of the quality of the system. Freak talents can and will emerge anywhere.

Football (soccer) is the 5th most popular team sport. It is the #1 in the rest of the world. Despite that, they have reached the world cup knockout stages in the 3 of the last 4 editions and finished 4th in the latest Copa America.

#1 in golf.

#1 in basketball.

#1 in ice hockey.

#1 in most and overall Olympic sports.

#1 in winter sports + extreme sports.

#1 in professional boxing.

top 3 in volleyball


$$$ + population + sporting culture and facilities = success.

#1 in ice hockey? As a Canadian, I'm offended.

 

[Vivek_86]

Vivek, I think you are missing the point.

Americans don't care about rugby and never will. American football is the most popular team sport in the US, which means rugby will never take off.

Similar to baseball / cricket.

They have had multiple top 10/20 players on the men's side in recent years. Only Spain has more top 40 level players. If women's tennis is such a joke, why has noone been able to beat Serena for two decades now. With individual sports, strength is depth is the best sign of the quality of the system. Freak talents can and will emerge anywhere.

Football (soccer) is the 5th most popular team sport. It is the #1 in the rest of the world. Despite that, they have reached the world cup knockout stages in the 3 of the last 4 editions and finished 4th in the latest Copa America.

#1 in golf.

#1 in basketball.

#1 in ice hockey.

#1 in most and overall Olympic sports.

#1 in winter sports + extreme sports.

#1 in professional boxing.

top 3 in volleyball


$$$ + population + sporting culture and facilities = success.

Exactly. Culture also is needed. That was my point. That's why Rugby won't take off even though they have money.

On a side note ,what I meant about Serena and womens tennis being joke was ever since Justin Henin retired ,there is no genuine competitor for Serena. She might lose here or there. Lack of depth in women's tennis is appalling.

 

[Sin Nombre]

#1 in ice hockey? As a Canadian, I'm offended.

Haha. Let's call it top 3 then to appease our Russian brethren as well.

 

[iniqbal223]

bowlers--

This test was lost by bad bowling and equally by worse batting in second innings

For pace attack to get potent, they really need to work hard and have variety. Amir, who still possess required skill set but obviously needs time to get into what he was before his ban, really needs to work on his bowling than his batting. To me, he seems to be on path of Irfan Pathan. Not able to get in-swingers right should be Amir's first concern. And for at least 6 months, he should not play test cricket at all and should go to domestic for sometime to talk to his coaches,mentors and try his arsenal in the domestic circuit.

Wahab : He is ever inconsistent he can be. Just need to understand where he can deliver his best.

Rahat : He has been given so many chances by waqar, whatmore and arthur that by now he should have been the leader of the pack. But he has himself to blame. He looks promising by the fact that he has variety and pace but execution is not ok. Looks like Ishant sharma's case.

Sohail : He should take whatever chances he can get.

Imran Khan : He is the one who should be in the XI ahead of Sohail Khan. Accepted, Sohail bats better than him, but no where in the world except India, where bowler gets selected based on his batting prowess.

And time has come to have Asif and junaid back in the team, Wahab and Sohail should be released asap.

 

[iniqbal223]

Also PCB should persuade Misbah to continue for some more time, as a player, if not captain.Whatever happened is happening for over years and even decades , Pak team not able to win a single test match for last 20-25 years in Australia. So that was nothing new, and was expected. The only time they had the best chance was in Sydney 2010, which that cheater akmal brothers lost it for Pakistan.
Misbah's mere presence gel the team well.And he has put the culture of hard work in the team, which the likes of Asad and Azhar are keeping up well. Sami Aslam is also a good opener, and should also not be blamed for the loss. His kind of batsman is what pak needed the most. His wicket fell because of his own tentativeness, area on which he must work on.

 

[Mamoon]

You cannot be a quality Test team outside Asia if you don't have a single top class player. It is an obvious, indisputable fact.

 

[AlphaFighter]

Too often our pacers hid under the pretext of being stuck in the UAE. But the tour of NZ and Australia has beautifully exposed them.

 

[proud_pakistani]

You cannot have a four bowler strategy working for you everywhere.

You need to play either 4 bowlers and one all rounder .

or

3 bowlers and two all rounders.

Agreed with this. If you arent going to pick a pace bowling all-rounder in a series in Australia or New Zealand then you are never going to pick them. It was a perfect time to play Amad Butt or Hammad Azam. Pakistan think tank just does not strategize properly with respect to conditions. These were conditions that would have supported decent fast bowling all-rounders and could have perhaps made us more competitive.

 

[jeetu]

You cannot be a quality Test team outside Asia if you don't have a single top class player. It is an obvious, indisputable fact.

Azhar Ali surely stands out.

 

[Mamoon]

Azhar Ali surely stands out.

Typo. I meant top class pacer not player.

 

[Mamoon]

You cannot be a quality Test team outside Asia if you don't have a single top class player. It is an obvious, indisputable fact.

Pacer*

 

[jeetu]

Typo. I meant top class pacer not player.

You are correct on this account.
No 10 wickets by any fast bowler in match.
Barring Junaid very few 5 wickets in an inning
Last 5 years bowling stats
[table=width: 700, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]10W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan [/td][td]2014-2016 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]26.53 [/td][td]49.7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Junaid Khan [/td][td]2012-2015 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]32.24 [/td][td]64.8 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sohail Khan [/td][td]2016-2016 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]33.84 [/td][td]57.1 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wahab Riaz [/td][td]2014-2016 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]34.32 [/td][td]59.5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Rahat Ali [/td][td]2013-2016 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]37.43 [/td][td]69.7 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Amir [/td][td]2016-2016 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]38.83 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Irfan [/td][td]2013-2013 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]38.9 [/td][td]71.2 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Umar Gul [/td][td]2012-2013 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]41.11 [/td][td]69.5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[pakteam#1]

The claim by the selection committee that there are no bowling allrounders is a myth. The current one day tournament and qa trophy saw a number of allrounders raise their hand.
Ammad butt, amir yamin, fahim ashraf, anwer ali, bilawal bhatti, fakhar zaman, imran khalid, imad wasim, kamran ghulam, zohaib khan, mansoor amjad,

 

[iniqbal223]

In Austalia's second innings, it was disappointing to see that all the bowlers were attacking the batsmen by targeting stumps, and were thrashed eventually.

It was really a bad strategy. If you know you can not get batsman out and know their intentions that they are looking for quick runs. You can not feed them balls to their body and that too in MCG.

I wonder why they did not bowl the negative lines on 5th morning to ensure that australia do not score quickly. I still remember a test match between India and South Africa where South Africa was on sails to chase 450+ target, but then suddenly for last 30 overs or so. Indian bowlers started bowling negatively: overs were full of wides, slower balls, high bouncers -- just to kill time, and finally came out with a draw where there seemed to be an evident loss for them. Why pakistan bowlers are not that smart? What is stopping them to think before they bowl to a batsman.

Changing bowlers, captain, coaches will not change anything (which is happening erringly for last 10-15 years) unless our cricketers become strategically smart. India, no matter how poor their bowling resources are, but they play their cricket smartly and with less effort, and on the field I don't think it has something to do with BCCI.

The quicker we realise our shortcomings, instead of blaming PCB,BCCI,ICC, foreign/local coaches,etc. the better it is for our cricket.

Different match situations demand different reactions, and these players, not coaches, need to learn how to execute plans for expected outcomes. If it was clear that Steve smith was after quick runs, why on earth bowlers did not bowl negatively to him.

The question is not about changing players, but should be about, do we have smart capable players who know what to do, how to do and when?

Untill then, it will always be PANICSTAN..

 

[Abid Z]

Poor captaincy and poor field placings. The pacers aren't worth much. Such a shame, thought the pace attack would have feasted on Aussies demolished by philander and co.

 

[PakLFC]

We don't have express pace bowlers anymore that put fear in to the hearts of batsmen. Our current bowling attack is incredibly overrated.

 

[AlphaFighter]

We don't have express pace bowlers anymore that put fear in to the hearts of batsmen. Our current bowling attack is incredibly overrated.

Its not about Express pace bowling, its about bowling intelligently, knowing when to attack, when to defend, bowling with discipline, to your field, to a logical plan but then again neither does the captain have the intelligence to set good fields as well.

 

[PakLFC]

Its not about Express pace bowling, its about bowling intelligently, knowing when to attack, when to defend, bowling with discipline, to your field, to a logical plan but then again neither does the captain have the intelligence to set good fields as well.

Express pace puts fear in to the hearts of batsmen. This is what the likes of Waqar, Wasim and Shoaib did, I miss those days. This is not to dismiss the importance of good line and length.

 

[Indiafan]

I love how Indian bowlers are still looked down upon when Shami alone has more skills, variety and brains with pace than all current Pak bowlers combined.

Also, this is what happens when instead of developing new bowlers in the past 5 years, PCB and Pak fans were obsessed with one single bowler in Amir. How soon they abandoned Junaid when he lost form. It was like they were waiting for some magic, Amir comes back and Pak will magically start winning matches. For 5 years it was only Amir this and Amir that instead of trying to develop a rounded bowling attack with variety

Now when Amir has not lived up to the expectations the same fans are turning to Asif. As if a 34 year old will come back and win international matches single-handedly. This is what happens when you are obsessed with one or two personalities rather than playing as a team. How many matches did Pak bowling win when these too were not in the team?

When two of your premier bowlers went absent for 5 years, that was the best time to develop new bowlers. Amir should have had to fight his way back. I dunno how much of this was lack of talent in the domestic scene and how much was PCB and Pak fans being obsessed only with Amir but this didn't happen. Those who actually performed (Junaid has 4 5-fers more than any other bowler in Pak in that period) didnt get the support when their form dipped. It was always on the back of people's mind that Amir was going to come back and magically win matches

Putting all your eggs in one single basket will always cause problem. Counting on personalities instead of team work will not always work. Even really good bowlers like Starc etc bowl better when they have support and a good all round team.

 

[asfandyar]

Money can't buy talent. It has to be culturally cultivated. India never had fast bowling culture. So it is foolish to expect bowlers just coz it had money. US could be the most powerful in every sports if that's the criteria

Again no. Many Pakistanis from our generation mimicked Tendulkar and held him in high esteem. Similarly, many bowlers from India try to mimic Wasim (Irfan, Zaheer).

Just because Pakistanis eat more meat doesn't mean they are culturally superior to India in terms of pace bowling. Similarly, vegetarianism does not guarantee flexible wrists adept at batting.

Money has the final say in polishing talent. If you are implying that a country with a population of over 1 billion has no fast bowling talent then I must commend your intellect.

If a country like Pakistan, where a FC cricketers must find alternative means to sustain their families, and where talent at U19 level rarely makes it to the top due to lack of investment into the infrastructure, can produce breathtaking exponents of pace bowling every now and then, then India have a serious problem on their hand if they can't do the same with mammoth financial reserves at their disposal.

 

[asfandyar]

I love how Indian bowlers are still looked down upon when Shami alone has more skills, variety and brains with pace than all current Pak bowlers combined.

Also, this is what happens when instead of developing new bowlers in the past 5 years, PCB and Pak fans were obsessed with one single bowler in Amir. How soon they abandoned Junaid when he lost form. It was like they were waiting for some magic, Amir comes back and Pak will magically start winning matches. For 5 years it was only Amir this and Amir that instead of trying to develop a rounded bowling attack with variety

Now when Amir has not lived up to the expectations the same fans are turning to Asif. As if a 34 year old will come back and win international matches single-handedly. This is what happens when you are obsessed with one or two personalities rather than playing as a team. How many matches did Pak bowling win when these too were not in the team?

When two of your premier bowlers went absent for 5 years, that was the best time to develop new bowlers. Amir should have had to fight his way back. I dunno how much of this was lack of talent in the domestic scene and how much was PCB and Pak fans being obsessed only with Amir but this didn't happen. Those who actually performed (Junaid has 4 5-fers more than any other bowler in Pak in that period) didnt get the support when their form dipped. It was always on the back of people's mind that Amir was going to come back and magically win matches

Putting all your eggs in one single basket will always cause problem. Counting on personalities instead of team work will not always work. Even really good bowlers like Starc etc bowl better when they have support and a good all round team.

Because Shami is already an Indian ATG in terms of bowling says a lot about how pathetic your pace bowling scouts have been over the years despite unlimited financial resources at hand. Compare the salaries of FC cricketers in both countries and you will realize how ridiculous your argument comparing Indian and Pakistani pace attacks is.

 

[Vivek_86]

Because Shami is already an Indian ATG in terms of bowling says a lot about how pathetic your pace bowling scouts have been over the years despite unlimited financial resources at hand. Compare the salaries of FC cricketers in both countries and you will realize how ridiculous your argument comparing Indian and Pakistani pace attacks is.

Good to know Pak attack is better than Indian. So the elephant in the room is Indian pace attack .

 

[asfandyar]

Good to know Pak attack is better than Indian. So the elephant in the room is Indian pace attack .

Nope, Indian attack (Shami, Bumrah, Ashwin, Jadeja) is better. I am not a jingoist who can't call a spade a spade.

 

[Indiafan]

Because Shami is already an Indian ATG in terms of bowling says a lot about how pathetic your pace bowling scouts have been over the years despite unlimited financial resources at hand. Compare the salaries of FC cricketers in both countries and you will realize how ridiculous your argument comparing Indian and Pakistani pace attacks is.

I dont think FC money has anything to do with how well people bowl in international cricket. Zaheer has won us a series in England, Sreesanth has helped us draw a series in SA. It is performance which counts in the end

Why should I look at past performances here? Yes you HAD ATG bowlers but when was the last time? 5 years ago? 10 years ago?

Cricket has moved. World has moved. You do not win matches because of 1 or 2 ATGs having great match-winning performances. You win because you work as a team, disciplined, hard work, consistency in every department. Even the potential ATGs we have today all over the world do better because of their team and support. They stand out because they have support. When Kohli failed Nair scored a triple and Rahul scored 199. When Ashwin failed Jadeja took a 7-fer

Focus on an all round team instead of personalities. I keep seeing calls of getting Asif back and Kamran Akmal and Butt back. Instead support the guys in the team and make them accountable. I dont care if Shami is ranked 100 as long as he helps us win matches instead of "looking good" and being praised as future Wasim Akram

 

[iniqbal223]

I second your point.

Its absolutely about the team game, which has somewhat improved under Misbah's leadership and was pathetic under Afridi's captaincy.

When you have players like Afridi in the team for so long doing nothing , then you are almost playing with 10 men, and it gets worse when the gang (Akmal brothers, Ahmed Shehzad) is in the team. Its because of these guys new players have not arrived or not been given fair chances.

Things have changed little bit after Afridi and gang's departure. But to fully develop a professional well-rounded time with right team-first attitude it may take some more time and effort of Misbah.

Think about it, if you have some other co-workers not performing and still getting all the attention, fame and $$$. Who would want to work in that environment? May be no one. The same applies to the team as well.

And, come on people, why compare the salaries of players of different countries? Why not held our own players accountable for not performing. No matter how restricted skill set Indian bowlers have, they at least know what they are capable of and how they can get best out of them. They simply have brains. Its not always about the money , it is also about interest in your own work. How seriously you take your work, and to ensure that you are contributing.

Further, people should show at least some respect for Misbah and Younis. Yes they failed. But it was the poor directionless bowling that prompted Steve Smith to think about scoring quickly and putting Pakistan batting under pressure.

 

[asfandyar]

I dont think FC money has anything to do with how well people bowl in international cricket. Zaheer has won us a series in England, Sreesanth has helped us draw a series in SA. It is performance which counts in the end

Why should I look at past performances here? Yes you HAD ATG bowlers but when was the last time? 5 years ago? 10 years ago?

Cricket has moved. World has moved. You do not win matches because of 1 or 2 ATGs having great match-winning performances. You win because you work as a team, disciplined, hard work, consistency in every department. Even the potential ATGs we have today all over the world do better because of their team and support. They stand out because they have support. When Kohli failed Nair scored a triple and Rahul scored 199. When Ashwin failed Jadeja took a 7-fer

Focus on an all round team instead of personalities. I keep seeing calls of getting Asif back and Kamran Akmal and Butt back. Instead support the guys in the team and make them accountable. I dont care if Shami is ranked 100 as long as he helps us win matches instead of "looking good" and being praised as future Wasim Akram

No, but it does affect the size of talent pool. See, for example, the world would have been deprived of the talent of Mustafiz had he not attended the fast bowling camp.

In India, FC cricket is often a career choice because of the huge amount of money involved. In Pakistan, it is either as a means of livelihood, or just for fun, but never as a career choice.

Since FC is so lucrative in India, it is natural that everyone in their right frames of mind would dream of playing for the Ranjhi Trophy. On the contrary, you won't find many people aspiring to play for the Quaid-e-Azam trophy.

In such times, while India has the luxury of talent being served to the board on a platter, Pakistan has to resort to unconventional methods such as bowling camps and miracles to mine a pace bowler.

Hence, the comparison of Indian and Pakistani pace bowlers is as ridiculous as a comparison between Modi and Nawaz Sharif. As for your other points, they are irrelevant to the point a raised in the previous post, and you should reply to the post above this one.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Indian posters are being a bit too defensive here.

It is not a great state of affairs when we have one good fast bowler for test match cricket away from home for Aus/SA/NZ.

Pitches are getting more conducive for fast bowling in domestic cricket and hopefully we will see the results in 5-10 years from now.

 

[asfandyar]

Indian posters are being a bit too defensive here.

It is not a great state of affairs when we have one good fast bowler for test match cricket away from home for Aus/SA/NZ.

Pitches are getting more conducive for fast bowling in domestic cricket and hopefully we will see the results in 5-10 years from now.

Pitches that favor fast bowling have been the prime reason for a fall in our bowling standards and a rise in our batting standards.

In Wasim/Waqar's time, the pitches were conducive for batting, and bowlers had to struggle to earn their wickets. You could find batsmen averaging 50+ as if they grew on trees.

Nowadays, only Fawad and Haris average 50+ in domestics, and both have been known to grind it in Internationals. On the flip side, you can find countless trundlers who average <25 in FC, and most of them are not even domestic class, let alone international class.

Polishing a skill requires you to be put in testing, but manageable circumstances, and domestic pitch curators need to find the right formula so as to not shift the balance in either the bowlers' or batsmen's favor.

 

[Bilal7]

Look, any one with one eye can see that Rahat, Sohail and Imran are back-up bowlers at best and have never displayed any real quality at the highest level. If you keep picking them, then don't expect any miracles.

On the other hand, bowlers like Amir, Riaz, Junaid, Irfan and Asif have proven themselves at the International level and even though they may be out of form right now, backing them is the way to go because they will come good sooner or later.

In tests, we should play Amir, Riaz and Junaid while in ODIs, Irfan and Riaz can be rotated around. If Asif becomes available for that tour of South Africa next year, it'll be superb.

 

[asfandyar]

Look, any one with one eye can see that Rahat, Sohail and Imran are back-up bowlers at best and have never displayed any real quality at the highest level. If you keep picking them, then don't expect any miracles.

On the other hand, bowlers like Amir, Riaz, Junaid, Irfan and Asif have proven themselves at the International level and even though they may be out of form right now, backing them is the way to go because they will come good sooner or later.

In tests, we should play Amir, Riaz and Junaid while in ODIs, Irfan and Riaz can be rotated around. If Asif becomes available for that tour of South Africa next year, it'll be superb.

If you are content with 30+ averaging bowlers who can beat the bat every now and then, or those who give sparkling performances once in a blue moon, then I'm afraid you have caught the Afridi fan boy syndrome my friend.

Matches are not decided on how many times you beat the bat, but rather on how many runs you give per wicket, or how many deliveries you need to get a wicket. The funny thing is Imran actually averages decent, yet you have included him in the backup bowlers' list.

If you start favoring a player with future potential over a player with current performance, then you'll be a hypocrite if you continue with him if he becomes a current performer in the future.

 

[ExplicitAI]

Really don't like the idea of the PCB acting like allrounders are extinct in Pakistan. I don't care if they're not world beaters at junior level, they're specialists and can ease the pressure of our other bowlers, you need 4 bowlers and an allrounder when on a tour. Best all-round option should go to Aamir Yamin.

 

[New Yorker]

Look, any one with one eye can see that Rahat, Sohail and Imran are back-up bowlers at best and have never displayed any real quality at the highest level. If you keep picking them, then don't expect any miracles.

On the other hand, bowlers like Amir, Riaz, Junaid, Irfan and Asif have proven themselves at the International level and even though they may be out of form right now, backing them is the way to go because they will come good sooner or later.

In tests, we should play Amir, Riaz and Junaid while in ODIs, Irfan and Riaz can be rotated around. If Asif becomes available for that tour of South Africa next year, it'll be superb.

Imran Ave 26 SR 49
Riaz Ave 34 SR 59

Indeed Riaz has proven himself at international level. After 23 Tests @ age 31 with only 2 5fers, one of these against the mighty Windies, he has proven that he is always likely to be 'out of form.'

Now I can't tell for sure how Imran's stats will look like after 23 Tests, but so far they look good, even better for knowing he has bowled mostly in the UAE. Which means that even if I were inclined to be sceptical about him, I would check that scepticism at the door, and let him play some more.

 

[Vayuu]

I think the problem lies in having a team culture, Pakistan has always been about individual performances, than say a team culture, only 3 times have they played as team 1992, 2007, 2009 and they end up winning 2, focus should be on more A tours ,don't introduce youngsters when they are in their teens let them perform at domestic levels , A tours for atleast 3 seasons, be it a batsmen or bowlers,select a core of atleast 40 players and groom them.

 

[Bilal7]

Imran Ave 26 SR 49
Riaz Ave 34 SR 59

Indeed Riaz has proven himself at international level. After 23 Tests @ age 31 with only 2 5fers, one of these against the mighty Windies, he has proven that he is always likely to be 'out of form.'

Now I can't tell for sure how Imran's stats will look like after 23 Tests, but so far they look good, even better for knowing he has bowled mostly in the UAE. Which means that even if I were inclined to be sceptical about him, I would check that scepticism at the door, and let him play some more.

Where is Adam Voges, the one with a 60+ average? Like I said, anyone with one eye can see that he's a backup option, not a first choice. You should spend more time watching the game rather than analyzing numbers.

If you are content with 30+ averaging bowlers who can beat the bat every now and then, or those who give sparkling performances once in a blue moon, then I'm afraid you have caught the Afridi fan boy syndrome my friend.

Matches are not decided on how many times you beat the bat, but rather on how many runs you give per wicket, or how many deliveries you need to get a wicket. The funny thing is Imran actually averages decent, yet you have included him in the backup bowlers' list.

If you start favoring a player with future potential over a player with current performance, then you'll be a hypocrite if you continue with him if he becomes a current performer in the future.

30+ averaging bowlers who have proven themselves at the highest level are the ones we should be persisting with, especially when they are still relatively young. Sohail, Imran and Rahat have never done anything that made you pay attention and notice them.

 

[Ellipsism]

Pitches that favor fast bowling have been the prime reason for a fall in our bowling standards and a rise in our batting standards.

In Wasim/Waqar's time, the pitches were conducive for batting, and bowlers had to struggle to earn their wickets. You could find batsmen averaging 50+ as if they grew on trees.

Nowadays, only Fawad and Haris average 50+ in domestics, and both have been known to grind it in Internationals. On the flip side, you can find countless trundlers who average <25 in FC, and most of them are not even domestic class, let alone international class.

Polishing a skill requires you to be put in testing, but manageable circumstances, and domestic pitch curators need to find the right formula so as to not shift the balance in either the bowlers' or batsmen's favor.

The Pakistani domestic pitches aren't your typical green mambas, they are pitches with a bit of grass and uneven bounce.

The low and inconsistent bounce disallows the batsman to play on the front foot-(many of the younger batsman have a poor or don't have a front foot game, at all.) and also plays into the hands of bowlers.

These pitches are producing strokeless wonders that look clueless when they leave the UAE. Not better batsman.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Who is the fielding coach of Pak team?? Anyone?

 

[street cricketer]

Who is the fielding coach of Pak team?? Anyone?

Steve Rixon.

 

[asfandyar]

Where is Adam Voges, the one with a 60+ average? Like I said, anyone with one eye can see that he's a backup option, not a first choice. You should spend more time watching the game rather than analyzing numbers.



30+ averaging bowlers who have proven themselves at the highest level are the ones we should be persisting with, especially when they are still relatively young. Sohail, Imran and Rahat have never done anything that made you pay attention and notice them.

You only prove yourself mediocre by averaging 30+

 

[asfandyar]

The Pakistani domestic pitches aren't your typical green mambas, they are pitches with a bit of grass and uneven bounce.

The low and inconsistent bounce disallows the batsman to play on the front foot-(many of the younger batsman have a poor or don't have a front foot game, at all.) and also plays into the hands of bowlers.

These pitches are producing strokeless wonders that look clueless when they leave the UAE. Not better batsman.

Azhar, Asad et al, averaging more in internationals compared to domestics, tend to disagree.

 

[Ellipsism]

Azhar, Asad et al, averaging more in internationals compared to domestics, tend to disagree.

Explains why Khurram, Nasir, Masood, Sharjeel, Tanvir Ahmed, Asad Ali etc. all look clueless at the international level despite having healthy averages in their respective departments at the domestic level.