The Glorification of Raheel Sharif - What do you think?

[Slog]

Anyone living in Pakistan these days would know that Raheel Sharif is supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread these days in Pakistan. The military has been running a targetted and widespread PR movement and you would think that Gen Raheel is some all conquering all knowing general who will and has changed the fortunes of the country and ride into the sunset with Pakistan becoming the greatest country on Earth.

He is being mentioned everywhere and even in a city like Karachi which at best has been not that high on the Fauj historicallly when compared to the cities in Punjab (even when Karachi boy Musharraf was COAS), General Raheel is gaining a cult following. I dont know whether the military has installed them but all over the city you are seeing banners and billboard of the Karachi awaam thanking Raheel Sharif.

There is no doubt that there has been considerble improvement in the law and order and secuirity sitatuin in the country despite a big attack evert 4-5 months or so. From Karachi' s perspective eventhough the Rangers have been involved in extra judicial killings and there have been regular cases of missing persons it is undeniable that the situation is much better and there is no sense of fear which was prevalent for the past several years.


However I personally am getting a sense of deja vu here. When was the last time there was a military general who wasnt being praised to the hilt. Musharraf was supposed to be the savior when he came. Kayani always had much better approval ratings than several politicians combined and did till the end eventhough he failed to take decisive action against rising extremism and cared too much for his image. There were many people in favor of him imposing martial law and taking over. So is this a fad with Gen Raheel Sharif as with others before him? Or is he the real deal.

What do you guys think of him

 

[JaDed]

Democracy has been tries for 6 years and people are already fed up of it plus he is defn better than Kayani from Pakistani's point of view.
I see Caesar situation happening at least from the public point of view.

 

[King Cobra]

Why does Pakistan even bother to go through the hassles of democracy when the Qoum loves and admires military so much ? I guess Pakistan would be better off being ruled by a Military dictator than democratically elected crooks like Nawaz and Zardari.

 

[speed]

Why does Pakistan even bother to go through the hassles of democracy when the Qoum loves and admires military so much ? I guess Pakistan would be better off being ruled by a Military dictator than democratically elected crooks like Nawaz and Zardari.

The country is ruled by The Military, remember reading that Raheel shariff went to both russia and china recently instead of Nawaz. Pmln has no control over foreign affairs apart from boot licking the saudis.

 

[Mamoon]

He is treated like a king in Pakistan these days, he has done great work but some of the accolades that are going his way are clearly overboard.

People are comparing him to Kayani who was too diplomatic and never took concrete action, while Raheel so far has proved to be an all-action man and has been very aggressive against the Taliban.

 

[Mamoon]

Why does Pakistan even bother to go through the hassles of democracy when the Qoum loves and admires military so much ? I guess Pakistan would be better off being ruled by a Military dictator than democratically elected crooks like Nawaz and Zardari.

It goes all the way back to Iskander Mirza and Ayub Khan in 1958. The military holds all the cards in Pakistan, the PMs are just dummies.

 

[Vulcan]

Why does Pakistan even bother to go through the hassles of democracy when the Qoum loves and admires military so much ? I guess Pakistan would be better off being ruled by a Military dictator than democratically elected crooks like Nawaz and Zardari.

Well under Kiyani it was difficult for Army man to wear uniform publically. I think its depend on who is in command.

 

[Deosai]

He deserves the praise, and so doesses that ISPR dude, Baja

The army has been criticized criticized to the core by the global media and our leftist dominated English publications and Geo, so it's nice to see them counter it

This surge in popularity is great, I notice an increasing number of of young people my age enlisting in the army now, some of my cousins have joined the army, which is very uncommon for a Karachiite.

I think the army should introduce mandatory conscription, nobody would oppose them now

 

[bond007]

Rangers have been involved in extra judicial killings and there have been regular cases of missing persons it is undeniable that the situation is much better and there is no sense of fear which was prevalent for the past several years.

lol at the op talking about extra judicial killing.
when a terrorist easily gets the decision prolonged , gets released on bail only to kill dozen more in the mean time and finally disappears from everywhere to have a lavish lifestyle, you dont need judiciary.The judges are appointed due to political affiliation and if by chance a judge is honest ,he gets threatened about his life.
And how do you know the missing persons weren't actually culprits????

 

[TM Riddle]

I remember reading a book by Mohd Hanif(case of exploding mangoes) which showed the army culture of Pak and how they were supposed to be better than civilians and all that.If I m not wrong there was a character named Rahil Sharif in that too.

 

[TM Riddle]

Sorry just checked it was major kiyani actually.

 

[Stallion__]

There are still some groups, among the people as well as in media who like to exaggerate army's achievements. They think that since the people are illiterate and immature, they like to keep watching the same corrupt faces in the government, which yields nothing for the next 5 years. So Pakistan is better off with army at the helm of affairs rather that civilian government. Raheel Sharif with his stern and practical approach towards the issues unlike Kiani has made him even more popular.

Nawaz govt. is much more sensible and measured in their relationship with military establishment this time around. Also the fact that the negative feelings that Musharaff's reign created among the people (specially Lal Masjid issue) are still not washed off completely so I personally don't think that he has any intentions to become another Musharaff, unless things drastically go out of hands.

 

[Slog]

There are still some groups, among the people as well as in media who like to exaggerate army's achievements. They think that since the people are illiterate and immature, they like to keep watching the same corrupt faces in the government, which yields nothing for the next 5 years. So Pakistan is better off with army at the helm of affairs rather that civilian government. Raheel Sharif with his stern and practical approach towards the issues unlike Kiani has made him even more popular.

Nawaz govt. is much more sensible and measured in their relationship with military establishment this time around. Also the fact that the negative feelings that Musharaff's reign created among the people (specially Lal Masjid issue) are still not washed off completely so I personally don't think that he has any intentions to become another Musharaff, unless things drastically go out of hands.

If NS doesnt givve him extension things could get tricky

 

[PetroDollars]

Probably waiting to become a Field Marshal, before he strikes the sword against the gov.

 

[endymion248]

It is the nature of power that it can't be wielded in moderation. The day army doesn't have so many fronts anymore and the general sentiment in the country is pro-military is the day there will be a general at the helm of the nation again. It doesn't matter how nice and incorruptible the COAS of the time seems. There is no solution besides changing the mentality of the people towards what they want from their government (and limiting the power of the military but that's not really realistic) and that won't happen when so many elements in Pakistani society are impatient towards democracy because they are, in maturity, like children who will break their toys when they can't get what they want.

 

[Stallion__]

If NS doesnt givve him extension things could get tricky

Unlikely. I don't expect Nawaz to take any risk with direct face off.

 

[Strike Rate]

If NS doesnt givve him extension things could get tricky

Even if he isn't given extension i personally think the next chief will follow his footstep because his current team looks very competent and next chief is going to be from his team. Just today 4 major generals are promoted to lieutenant generals including Asim Bajwa (DG ISPR) so it's not going to be a bad choice if current DG ISI (Rizwan Akhtar) or DG ISPR (Asim Bajwa) are promoted to COAS after Raheel. Army usually send 3-4 names to PM for selecting one of them as next COAS. I am not sure about the age of Rizwan Akhtar and Asim Bajwa but they didn't look 60 so there is a chance for them.

 

[endymion248]

Even if he isn't given extension i personally think the next chief will follow his footstep because his current team looks very competent and next chief is going to be from his team. Just today 4 major generals are promoted to lieutenant generals including Asim Bajwa (DG ISPR) so it's not going to be a bad choice if current DG ISI (Rizwan Akhtar) or DG ISPR (Asim Bajwa) are promoted to COAS after Raheel. Army usually send 3-4 names to PM for selecting one of them as next COAS. I am not sure about the age of Rizwan Akhtar and Asim Bajwa but they didn't look 60 so there is a chance for them.

No guarantee that they wouldn't be power hungry.

 

[Strike Rate]

No guarantee that they wouldn't be power hungry.

Yea but for that to happen COAS need majority of core commanders to support him. Final decision in army is always of COAS but he need core commanders support.

btw Rizwan Akhtar is the last person MQM and PPP would like to see as COAS. Before becoming DG ISI he was DG Rangers in Sindh, PPP and MQM always had issues with him.

 

[Bewal Express]

Nothing can be worse than lootocracy dressed up as democracy. The army is corrupt but nothing compared to the politicians that get elected by the electorate. Sometimes you have to save the people from themselves. Mush did well at the start but fell away badly, what we need is a proper dictator.

 

[Markhor]

He does deserve some credit, the number of deaths from suicide attacks has dropped significantly.

The problem with Pak military is not its bravery or sacrifice which is undoubted but the fact its not a military force only.

Its a business, landowning, industrial and political institution all rolled into one. They practically run foreign and defence policy with civilian ministers merely serving as a rubber stamp.

 

[Deosai]

He does deserve some credit, the number of deaths from suicide attacks has dropped significantly.

The problem with Pak military is not its bravery or sacrifice which is undoubted but the fact its not a military force only.

Its a business, landowning, industrial and political institution all rolled into one. They practically run foreign and defence policy with civilian ministers merely serving as a rubber stamp.

If the civilian politicians,media and businesses towed the line in national interest like it is in the rest of the world then the army wouldn't have to adopt so many roles.

 

[Markhor]

Nothing can be worse than lootocracy dressed up as democracy. The army is corrupt but nothing compared to the politicians that get elected by the electorate. Sometimes you have to save the people from themselves. Mush did well at the start but fell away badly, what we need is a proper dictator.

How did that work out last 3-4 times ?

The problem is democracy is never allowed to grow and for the self-cleansing process to kick in. You can't grow a tree if you keep cutting it down. Its only now in our history we have a transition from one civilian govt to another. People need to realise the value of their vote instead of waiting for so-called 'benevolent dictator' to come in as a Messiah. The electorate needs to become more informed of the issues and stop voting against their economic interests by voting for these corrupt mafias.

At least in a democracy you can peacefully kick out a govt whereas with a dictator any dissent is met with bullets and tear gas.

 

[Strike Rate]

Nothing can be worse than lootocracy dressed up as democracy. The army is corrupt but nothing compared to the politicians that get elected by the electorate. Sometimes you have to save the people from themselves. Mush did well at the start but fell away badly, what we need is a proper dictator.

Exactly our military dictators become politicians and politicians act like civil dictators when they come into power that's the problem. We need pure democracy or pure dictatorship not a mixture of both.

 

[Markhor]

If the civilian politicians,media and businesses towed the line in national interest like it is in the rest of the world then the army wouldn't have to adopt so many roles.

I know and agree, civilian govt abdicates its responsibilities big time - but at least they're still accountable to the people whereas a military dictator isn't.

How does one remove a general whose policies are failing ? At least with civilians you can remove a failing administration without bloodshed. I respect the military massively for their duty to the nation - but they should stick to the fighting instead of trying to run the country, military dictators haven't worked out in the past and it won't again in the future.

 

[zabalestmsm]

The most popular General ever in the history of Pakistan, according to my observation!

He has given some tough competition to Imran Khan in terms of popularity! He may have beaten him as well in this contest! Giving tough competition to Imran Khan in terms of popularity is amazing!

And the military hasn't run any PR etc! Please point out any before mentioning! This is the thing which has amazed me the most as well! The sudden rise in popularity of Gen. Raheel Sharif is amazing and sometimes unbelievable!

He has already gained cult following! And most people like him because after the APS attack, he signed death warrants of the guilty and the death penalties were given which gained much respect for him! And then the Karachi operation was also huge plus point! And also he visits his troops timely! And also the security condition has improved a lot under him! ETC!

 

[Deosai]

The most popular General ever in the history of Pakistan, according to my observation!

He has given some tough competition to Imran Khan in terms of popularity! He may have beaten him as well in this contest! Giving tough competition to Imran Khan in terms of popularity is amazing!

And the military hasn't run any PR etc! Please point out any before mentioning! This is the thing which has amazed me the most as well! The sudden rise in popularity of Gen. Raheel Sharif is amazing and sometimes unbelievable!

He has already gained cult following! And most people like him because after the APS attack, he signed death warrants of the guilty and the death penalties were given which gained much respect for him! And then the Karachi operation was also huge plus point! And also he visits his troops timely! And also the security condition has improved a lot under him! ETC!

He's more popular than IK right now, but nobody can beat the popularity of Imran Khan 2012.

2012, IK was skyhigh in popularity, even many liberals and ethnic nationalists (usually critics of the army) were rooting for Khan, i think popularity dipped after the Azaadi march and at the same time Raheel started peaking

 

[Deosai]

I know and agree, civilian govt abdicates its responsibilities big time - but at least they're still accountable to the people whereas a military dictator isn't.

How does one remove a general whose policies are failing ? At least with civilians you can remove a failing administration without bloodshed. I respect the military massively for their duty to the nation - but they should stick to the fighting instead of trying to run the country, military dictators haven't worked out in the past and it won't again in the future.

I'm not talking about the ineptness of the politicians, but that they don't protect national interests or align with the establishment's ambitions, instead they're constantly battling it while they're in office, mainly because they're vouching for the interests of foreign entities that are much bigger players than the Pakistani army in the power game.

 

[yasir]

I like the guy for his decisive actions against Taliban and other bullies. But would like to see more swift action in Punjab, he is little too soft in Punjab which is dangerous. You just don't want to crush only the minorities, punjab is becoming the big trouble maker, somebody has to take an honest and aggressive action, otherwise we are breading another cycle of unrest and political turmoil.

Overall he has done much better job than Musharif and Kayani. He is more of a action guy than a political one. He also comes from a family of two 'Nashan-e-Haider', that is something very special. Let's hope he keep going like this. A country like ours, depends a lot upon military leader than political. But we have to be carefully of not drag him into politics and accepting him to fix everything.

 

[Markhor]

I'm not talking about the ineptness of the politicians, but that they don't protect national interests or align with the establishment's ambitions, instead they're constantly battling it while they're in office, mainly because they're vouching for the interests of foreign entities that are much bigger players than the Pakistani army in the power game.

Why excuse military chiefs who've done the same ? It was under Musharraf the perceived 'selling out' to the Americans began, it was under him the drone strikes began. Under Zia we received more money from US and Saudis than ever before and it was Zia who helped to implement the American anti-Soviet agenda in Afghanistan.

General Ayub famously went to the US and said "your army is my army" so to suggest only the military has Pakistan's national interests at heart and has never sold out to foreign entities is bizarre.

 

[Deosai]

Why excuse military chiefs who've done the same ? It was under Musharraf the perceived 'selling out' to the Americans began, it was under him the drone strikes began. Under Zia we received more money from US and Saudis than ever before and it was Zia who helped to implement the American anti-Soviet agenda in Afghanistan.

General Ayub famously went to the US and said "your army is my army" so to suggest only the military has Pakistan's national interests at heart and has never sold out to foreign entities is bizarre.

The army did it for national interests; you don't seem to understand what "national interest"; if the civilian politicians sell out to America for national interests then that's fine with me, but it's another thing to sell out in conflict of the nation's interest. When the army "sells out" to foreign entities they do it for geopolitical reasons, and cause the country could benefit from that move. Pakistan allying with the west during the Cold war was the best thing to do and paid off. Pakistan teaming up with America to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets was the best thing to do.Pakistan allying with America Post-9/11 was also the best thing to do cause the only other option was being "bombed back to the stoneage". Anyways my point is, it's one for the country to align with a foreign entity for it's interests but it's another thing for an individual to sell out for personal interests.

 

[Bewal Express]

U

How did that work out last 3-4 times ?

The problem is democracy is never allowed to grow and for the self-cleansing process to kick in. You can't grow a tree if you keep cutting it down. Its only now in our history we have a transition from one civilian govt to another. People need to realise the value of their vote instead of waiting for so-called 'benevolent dictator' to come in as a Messiah. The electorate needs to become more informed of the issues and stop voting against their economic interests by voting for these corrupt mafias.

At least in a democracy you can peacefully kick out a govt whereas with a dictator any dissent is met with bullets and tear gas.

If we had an educated public which could understand concepts such as budget deficits and the national debt then I would agree that in the long term the pain of democracy would be worth it, but although I agree that the military record is indifferent at best, it is still a thousand times better than the rubbish we have seen from the lootocrats in the 7 years. As far as bullets are concerned, maybe the dead at modal town would like to disagree with you.

 

[Rishikesh]

Pakistan press freedom under pressure from army

Journalists claim they are forced to self-censor criticism of the military after indirect threats from army officials

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/pakistan-press-freedom-army-journalists-military

 

[Markhor]

The army did it for national interests; you don't seem to understand what "national interest"; if the civilian politicians sell out to America for national interests then that's fine with me, but it's another thing to sell out in conflict of the nation's interest. When the army "sells out" to foreign entities they do it for geopolitical reasons, and cause the country could benefit from that move. Pakistan allying with the west during the Cold war was the best thing to do and paid off. Pakistan teaming up with America to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets was the best thing to do.Pakistan allying with America Post-9/11 was also the best thing to do cause the only other option was being "bombed back to the stoneage". Anyways my point is, it's one for the country to align with a foreign entity for it's interests but it's another thing for an individual to sell out for personal interests.

So if a civilian 'sells out' its usually against the national interests but if the military sells out its fine. What logic this is. Have the military ever done anything wrong in your eyes then ?

Let's take the effects of the Afghan policy in the 1980s - the Soviets were driven out but at what cost ? Pakistan has been unstable ever since with a jihadi Frankenstein monster we helped to create growing out of control. The illegal drug and arms trade has flourished along with a massive influx of Afghan refugees, some of whom have created problems in Pakistan in terms of criminality. 30,000 unregistered madrassas were set up bankrolled by military/Saudi money brainwashing young Pakistanis into fighting jihad in Afghanistan. We imported a poisonous religious fanaticism that gave root to groups like LEJ and SSP who've butchered thousands of Shias and the military didn't do a damn thing because these were "strategic assets" to be used.

Only now we have finally woke up to the folly of this policy. Whereas you want us to applaud the military for following so-called "national interest" - go tell that to all the victims of Malik Ishaq who for decades was allowed to roam the streets of Pakistan despite being a mass murderer - he was an establishment creation. "Strategic depth" failed, now the Afghans hate us more than ever.

Thank god for Raheel Sharif whose Afghan policy is the most sensible we've had in 35 years - calling for peace talks with all Afghan factions.

Wasn't it Gen Musharraf who under the NRO brought back all the corrupt, sold-out politicians you are criticising to save his own skin ? Was that him acting in the national interest - pardoning people with records of murder, corruption and other criminal records so he could cling onto power ? Please don't say military dictators are not corruptible - Musharraf led one of the most corrupt govts ever - corruption isn't unique to civilians.

You criticse these civilians yet whenever the military intervenes they allow Bhuttos/Sharifs to play shaheed card and we're back to square one. This is not an anti-military argument, again I respect the military for fighting terrorism, but that doesn't absolve them of their past blunders.

 

[Garuda]

All good. But he should have provided security to the Supreme court judges instead of himself becoming the supreme judge and signing death penalties.

As the COAS his role is to save the institutions of the country and make them stronger instead of taking as much power for himself.

I get surprised how people and media in pakistan support such moves. This is setting a trend to manipulate power instead of strengthening nations institutions to do check and balance.

 

[ChachaCricket]

Only time will tell.

 

[Inswinger]

Generl Raheel Sharif is a proper soldier. There is no way he'll be the one pulling military coupe. Comparing him to Musharaff is like apples to oranges.

 

[Inswinger]

How did that work out last 3-4 times ?

The problem is democracy is never allowed to grow and for the self-cleansing process to kick in. You can't grow a tree if you keep cutting it down. Its only now in our history we have a transition from one civilian govt to another. People need to realise the value of their vote instead of waiting for so-called 'benevolent dictator' to come in as a Messiah. The electorate needs to become more informed of the issues and stop voting against their economic interests by voting for these corrupt mafias.

At least in a democracy you can peacefully kick out a govt whereas with a dictator any dissent is met with bullets and tear gas.

So the Model Town massacres happened under General Shabaz Sharif's watch? Not Khadim-e-ala Shabaz Sharif?

 

[Inswinger]

Pakistan press freedom under pressure from army

Journalists claim they are forced to self-censor criticism of the military after indirect threats from army officials

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/pakistan-press-freedom-army-journalists-military

Journalists? Or just one drama queen aka Hamid Mir? Has this guy ever said anything about the Army?

 

[Inswinger]

Yea but for that to happen COAS need majority of core commanders to support him. Final decision in army is always of COAS but he need core commanders support.

btw Rizwan Akhtar is the last person MQM and PPP would like to see as COAS. Before becoming DG ISI he was DG Rangers in Sindh, PPP and MQM always had issues with him.

If PPP had their way they would have given another extension to Kiyani. Kiyani was to PPP what Iftikhar Ch. was to PMLN.

 

[Fallen King]

He is treated like a king in Pakistan these days, he has done great work but some of the accolades that are going his way are clearly overboard.

People are comparing him to Kayani who was too diplomatic and never took concrete action, while Raheel so far has proved to be an all-action man and has been very aggressive against the Taliban.

I think it is matter of timing. Familiar with General Kayani, and his diplomatic handling affair was exactly what Pakistan needed during that time.

When General Kayani assumed the command, back then the nation was already outraged over the policy of former leader, Pervaiz Musharraf, thus undermined the credibility of Pakistan army as whole in the eyes of the nation.

When General Raheel assumed the command, the nation was already fed up with Taliban attacks, and democratic process due to Zardari - the worst democratic elected government in the history of Pakistan proved obstacle to the progress of democratic system. That was basically setting up for General Raheel.

General Raheel was lucky to assume the command at the right time. Normally, most Generals make similar decisions that neutralize the threat that impacts negatively on the economy of the nation. We can only wonder if the timing of their entry in those situations were reversed and their roles accordingly.

 

[Fallen King]

If PPP had their way they would have given another extension to Kiyani. Kiyani was to PPP what Iftikhar Ch. was to PMLN.

It is important to look at the context. Pakistan army wasn't favorite back then. The nation could not take any more interference from Pakistan army regarding the political handling affairs. Despite of limited role, he has done done as needed. During that time, patient and diplomatic were badly needed to let democratic government completes its term peacefully and let the nation decides for their result.

Kiyani did what anyone would do to earn the stay, in other word, renewing the extension while working behind the scene to keep the situation under control to his best ability - guaranteed it was not enough, but that was no longer responsibility of his as the nation chose Zardari during that time, thus powering him over the role of General of Pakistan army.

Good to see you are back. Welcome back, Inswinger.

 

[Markhor]

So the Model Town massacres happened under General Shabaz Sharif's watch? Not Khadim-e-ala Shabaz Sharif?

But that is to conflate two issues. You have to separate the democratic system and the people who commit abuses within it. One or two people committing abuses like Model Town (which was horrific) doesn't delegitimise the whole system. One or two fixers doesn't mean the whole sport of cricket must be finished. No, you have to work at rooting out these abuses and ensure it never happens again by holding those who need to be punished to account. Pakistani democracy is deeply flawed but at the very least the people have the option to kick these Sharifs out.

Democracy is an evolutionary process, we have only given it 7 years which is no time to remove 67 years of corruption and abuse. Unfortunately the Pakistani public can be fickle - when under dictatorship there are people who call for the general's head and then after a year of democracy the same people wish the general was still around. This is no way to build a functioning political system.

Also the Sharifs were the blue eyed boys of another dictator, General Zia. Much like Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who served under Ayub - is it any wonder where these civilians learn about crushing dissent and engaging in ghunda politics ? Under dictatorships we have seen house arrests, imprisonment and emergencies - all of which has allowed people like Bhuttos and Sharifs to play shaheed card - let's not give them that excuse again.

 

[PetroDollars]

How did that work out last 3-4 times ?

The problem is democracy is never allowed to grow and for the self-cleansing process to kick in. You can't grow a tree if you keep cutting it down. Its only now in our history we have a transition from one civilian govt to another. People need to realise the value of their vote instead of waiting for so-called 'benevolent dictator' to come in as a Messiah. The electorate needs to become more informed of the issues and stop voting against their economic interests by voting for these corrupt mafias.

At least in a democracy you can peacefully kick out a govt whereas with a dictator any dissent is met with bullets and tear gas.

Most probably because democracy is not a tree, but the disease that kills the tree.

 

[sjahmed23]

Well it was a long time coming. I think military grew impatient with the civilian gov't doing nothing but holding 'peace talks' with the devils. APS attack changed all that. I hope the military plays a role in strengthening other institutions in Pakistan as well that will benefit the country in the long run like the courts, police and local governments.

 

[munda_khi]

How did that work out last 3-4 times ?

The problem is democracy is never allowed to grow and for the self-cleansing process to kick in. You can't grow a tree if you keep cutting it down. Its only now in our history we have a transition from one civilian govt to another. People need to realise the value of their vote instead of waiting for so-called 'benevolent dictator' to come in as a Messiah. The electorate needs to become more informed of the issues and stop voting against their economic interests by voting for these corrupt mafias.

At least in a democracy you can peacefully kick out a govt whereas with a dictator any dissent is met with bullets and tear gas.

you said it sir
hope majority understand that

 

[srh]

So if a civilian 'sells out' its usually against the national interests but if the military sells out its fine. What logic this is. Have the military ever done anything wrong in your eyes then ?

Let's take the effects of the Afghan policy in the 1980s - the Soviets were driven out but at what cost ? Pakistan has been unstable ever since with a jihadi Frankenstein monster we helped to create growing out of control. The illegal drug and arms trade has flourished along with a massive influx of Afghan refugees, some of whom have created problems in Pakistan in terms of criminality. 30,000 unregistered madrassas were set up bankrolled by military/Saudi money brainwashing young Pakistanis into fighting jihad in Afghanistan. We imported a poisonous religious fanaticism that gave root to groups like LEJ and SSP who've butchered thousands of Shias and the military didn't do a damn thing because these were "strategic assets" to be used.

Only now we have finally woke up to the folly of this policy. Whereas you want us to applaud the military for following so-called "national interest" - go tell that to all the victims of Malik Ishaq who for decades was allowed to roam the streets of Pakistan despite being a mass murderer - he was an establishment creation. "Strategic depth" failed, now the Afghans hate us more than ever.

Thank god for Raheel Sharif whose Afghan policy is the most sensible we've had in 35 years - calling for peace talks with all Afghan factions.

Wasn't it Gen Musharraf who under the NRO brought back all the corrupt, sold-out politicians you are criticising to save his own skin ? Was that him acting in the national interest - pardoning people with records of murder, corruption and other criminal records so he could cling onto power ? Please don't say military dictators are not corruptible - Musharraf led one of the most corrupt govts ever - corruption isn't unique to civilians.

You criticse these civilians yet whenever the military intervenes they allow Bhuttos/Sharifs to play shaheed card and we're back to square one. This is not an anti-military argument, again I respect the military for fighting terrorism, but that doesn't absolve them of their past blunders.

Great post.

 

[saeedhk]

People in Pakistan are not concerned with the type of government e.g. democratic or non-democractic.What they want is reduction in unemployment, terrorism and other good things.

Saying that in order to strengthen democracy , we need more democracy is like saying , in order to get rid of cancer, you need more cancer.

What we have in Pakistan is a parody of democracy!

Sent from my Lenovo A6000 using Tapatalk

 

[PetroDollars]

People in Pakistan are not concerned with the type of government e.g. democratic or non-democractic.What they want is reduction in unemployment, terrorism and other good things.

Saying that in order to strengthen democracy , we need more democracy is like saying , in order to get rid of cancer, you need more cancer.

What we have in Pakistan is a parody of democracy!

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Some people would not mind losing the country in the process of getting democracy. Mainly because they don't live here.

 

[DrSchultz]

Some people would not mind losing the country in the process of getting democracy. Mainly because they don't live here.

So the people who vote for MQM, PPP or PMLN in elections also do not live here?

 

[JaDed]

Most probably because democracy is not a tree, but the disease that kills the tree.

Yeah and monarchy is the Lumberjack.

 

[PetroDollars]

So the people who vote for MQM, PPP or PMLN in elections also do not live here?

You think they will be shedding tears when the army comes rolling in.

 

[Saeed]

Probably because he has the courage to say and do what our Jamhoori representatives won't. Pakistan probably won't lose much if it is ruled by army for few decades. Even Europe(epitome of democracy) was ruled by absolute monarchs during the 18th century. Yeah the same 18th century that is regarded as the Age of Enlightenment.

 

[srh]

But that is to conflate two issues. You have to separate the democratic system and the people who commit abuses within it. One or two people committing abuses like Model Town (which was horrific) doesn't delegitimise the whole system. One or two fixers doesn't mean the whole sport of cricket must be finished. No, you have to work at rooting out these abuses and ensure it never happens again by holding those who need to be punished to account. Pakistani democracy is deeply flawed but at the very least the people have the option to kick these Sharifs out.

Democracy is an evolutionary process, we have only given it 7 years which is no time to remove 67 years of corruption and abuse. Unfortunately the Pakistani public can be fickle - when under dictatorship there are people who call for the general's head and then after a year of democracy the same people wish the general was still around. This is no way to build a functioning political system.

Also the Sharifs were the blue eyed boys of another dictator, General Zia. Much like Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto who served under Ayub - is it any wonder where these civilians learn about crushing dissent and engaging in ghunda politics ? Under dictatorships we have seen house arrests, imprisonment and emergencies - all of which has allowed people like Bhuttos and Sharifs to play shaheed card - let's not give them that excuse again.

Another great post. Markhor is dominating this thread like Pakistan used to dominate India in cricket.

 

[TOP SPINNER_01]

Can see Rizwan Akhtar saying "Mere Aziz Hum Watno" in 2018-2019. :dalmiya Rahil is in the midst of a great partnership with Nawaz right now keeping 90% strike.Nawaz being a tailender can get out any ball.

 

[DrSchultz]

Probably because he has the courage to say and do what our Jamhoori representatives won't. Pakistan probably won't lose much if it is ruled by army for few decades. Even Europe(epitome of democracy) was ruled by absolute monarchs during the 18th century. Yeah the same 18th century that is regarded as the Age of Enlightenment.

You realize Pakistan has been ruled by millitary dictators longer than it has been under democracy. Of course you don't.

 

[DrSchultz]

You think they will be shedding tears when the army comes rolling in.

I'm sure the opposition parties will enjoy it.

 

[TOP SPINNER_01]

Pakistan's propaganda model against evil politicians is world best.

 

[Saqs]

It is the nature of power that it can't be wielded in moderation. The day army doesn't have so many fronts anymore and the general sentiment in the country is pro-military is the day there will be a general at the helm of the nation again. It doesn't matter how nice and incorruptible the COAS of the time seems. There is no solution besides changing the mentality of the people towards what they want from their government (and limiting the power of the military but that's not really realistic) and that won't happen when so many elements in Pakistani society are impatient towards democracy because they are, in maturity, like children who will break their toys when they can't get what they want.

Proves again why he is the best poster on the forum.

 

[Saqs]

Gen Raheel looks like the demonchild of Saddam and Pablo Escobar. A scurge for terrorists all over the world!

 

[farazaidi]

lol, the pseudo experts of democracy are at it again

If Gen. Raheel Sharif was ever doing a coup, it should've been in August 2014. The govt was at its weakest point and with people marching in the red zone and situation of stalemate, he could've so easily walked in on the excuse of solving the dispute. But he didnt and that should put end to all those rumors.

Comparisons with Musharraf are silly. Mushy never enjoyed such public support, not even after the 12 October 1999. And while he made tall promises of recovering looted money in corruption, all the corruption cases were dropped by his own NRO in 2007.

The unique thing about Raheel Sharif is that he has linked state terrorism with economic terrorism. This is first time ever that a sitting government is facing corruption charges. We've heard all these corruption scams before, just when new govt takes over. Even Musharraf did the same thing, brought so many corruption cases against PPP and PMLN but none of them were completed. They just fizzed out but that isnt the case right now. A sitting minister is arrested on corruption charges and political big wigs are looking over their shoulder and running for shelter. THIS basically is the main reason why he is so popular right now.

 

[Little Master]

I don't think military would be foolish enough to stage a coup, given the international pressure and media backlash that comes with it. So instead of running things on so many fronts (like they are doing right now) it pretty much has to divert its attention to calming the situation.

Army is pretty much running the country in the background, taking all the credit but can always wash their hands of the responsibility because there is actually a so called democratic government sitting at the helm which pretty much gets criticism for all the things that go wrong. Current set up is a win / win situation for army.

 

[JaDed]

http://herald.dawn.com/news/1153264/enter-the-general

 

[Deosai]

There should be a coup in Sindh, get rid of the incompetent Larkana establishment

 

[Couch Cricketer]

Currently army is no mood for a coup but they want Raheel Sharif's tenure to be extended. Army has already done a soft coup is alreadey dictating the foreign policy as well as the security policy so they don't feel the need to intervene. But if his tenure is not extended we might see it.
MQM was loosing power and support among the Urdu speaking population but the recent behaviour has started to change I know of people that had been Anti Altaf Hussain and MQM. But were beaten up etc for being Urdu speaking. One of such guys said that he was with another 2 people they had an physical altercation with some plain clothes guys that later turned out to be army. All three were taken away but other 2 were let go and this guy was beaten up reason given he is Urdu speaking Now this guy is more angry about the discrimination than can getting beaten up.
I have heard such tales before didnt belive them much now seeing something like this first hand makes me wonder.

 

[AZ]

Never a certainty but Pakistan has (hopefully) grown up from this coup mentality.

Raheel is doing good work - at least that is what ISPR controlled information tells us - so let him enjoy.

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[Slog]

Doubt it's a direct correlation but miss this guy since the uptick in terrorist attack is last month are at PPP government and Gen Kayani era levels

 

[Pakpak]

Bajwa seems like another Kiyani.

 

[shaz619]

Doubt it's a direct correlation but miss this guy since the uptick in terrorist attack is last month are at PPP government and Gen Kayani era levels

What is your opinion of Musharaf and how'd you see him fairing in the current climate considering there are many who feel during his run he dealt with such a fiasco quiet well before the public turned on him

 

[Mamoon]

General sahab is swimming in dollars thanks to his new role. However, I wonder what role the IMAFT will play in light of these recents attacks across the country, even if we manage to ignore who the Commander-in-Cheif is.

 

[Syed1]

Doubt it's a direct correlation but miss this guy since the uptick in terrorist attack is last month are at PPP government and Gen Kayani era levels

Big fan of Raheel Sharif but the APS tragedy happened under his watch.

 

[Slog]

What is your opinion of Musharaf and how'd you see him fairing in the current climate considering there are many who feel during his run he dealt with such a fiasco quiet well before the public turned on him

His time is up

No point going backwards and tbh he had a lot of fiascos in his time

 

[Eagle_Eye]

What is your opinion of Musharaf and how'd you see him fairing in the current climate considering there are many who feel during his run he dealt with such a fiasco quiet well before the public turned on him

mush is finished, he has no traction anywhere. he is lucky not to be hanged for treason.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

General sahab is swimming in dollars thanks to his new role. However, I wonder what role the IMAFT will play in light of these recents attacks across the country, even if we manage to ignore who the Commander-in-Cheif is.

Surely even you can understand that this force does not deal with internal security.... that is the job of police and respective armies.

How do you know that he is swimming in dollars, do you have any evidence of how much he is being paid?

 

[Tekcirc]

Why does Pakistan even bother to go through the hassles of democracy when the Qoum loves and admires military so much ? I guess Pakistan would be better off being ruled by a Military dictator than democratically elected crooks like Nawaz and Zardari.

Because you can raise the voice against the crooks in democracy. Under military you raise your voice you get a bullet, no questions asked.

How much of Pakistani govt. infrastructure is owned by the military?

 

[Tekcirc]

How many of the Indian posters know who are the heads of our armed forces?
Frankly, I had a vague idea of the name because of the controversy surrounding his appointment recently.

 

[yasir]

Army is the biggest nemesis Pakistan ever have, all Pakistan biggest problems came to existence because of Army, in last 3 decades our culture and society is rotten by three things: drugs, weapons, Islamization, all these are not brought by politicians but by Pakistan Army...

This combination of Army and Islam, which Pakistan love so much is the reason Pakistan is so backward and poor, mark my words, Pakistan will never developed as a nation until both of them(Army and Islam) are dethrone from social, political and cultural priorities of the nation

Keep in mind Corruption is not a cause, its a symptom of some other deep rooted problem... Most of the time you fix your culture to get rid of corruption, that's what we do in business as well as society, change your values and priorities...Like in US Bible Belt biggest cultural problem is backward thinking of race and religion oriented culture, that is not letting them developed, as long as they keep these cultural priorities, they will never develop, despite so many resources within USA, they can bring down the whole country if given extended power, but that culture will never bring prosperity or harmony...Pakistanis need to understand culture of Army and Religion is never going to bring prosperity or peace...You need to stop investing in those negative ideas, both Army and religion are negative forces, they need to in the background not front and center of any society

 

[Tekcirc]

Army is the biggest nemesis Pakistan ever have, all Pakistan biggest problems came to existence because of Army, in last 3 decades our culture and society is rotten by three things: drugs, weapons, Islamization, all these are not brought by politicians but by Pakistan Army...

This combination of Army and Islam, which Pakistan love so much is the reason Pakistan is so backward and poor, mark my words, Pakistan will never developed as a nation until both of them(Army and Islam) are dethrone from social, political and cultural priorities of the nation

Keep in mind Corruption is not a cause, its a symptom of some other deep rooted problem... Most of the time you fix your culture to get rid of corruption, that's what we do in business as well as society, change your values and priorities...Like in US Bible Belt biggest cultural problem is backward thinking of race and religion oriented culture, that is not letting them developed, as long as they keep these cultural priorities, they will never develop, despite so many resources within USA, they can bring down the whole country if given extended power, but that culture will never bring prosperity or harmony.Pakistanis need to understand culture of Army and Religion is never going to bring prosperity or peace...You need to stop investing in those negative ideas, both Army and religion are negative forces, they need to in the background not front and center of any society

+1

Militaries and Religion are not accountable to the people they govern. So who will watch the watchmen?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Army is the biggest nemesis Pakistan ever have, all Pakistan biggest problems came to existence because of Army, in last 3 decades our culture and society is rotten by three things: drugs, weapons, Islamization, all these are not brought by politicians but by Pakistan Army...

This combination of Army and Islam, which Pakistan love so much is the reason Pakistan is so backward and poor, mark my words, Pakistan will never developed as a nation until both of them(Army and Islam) are dethrone from social, political and cultural priorities of the nation

Keep in mind Corruption is not a cause, its a symptom of some other deep rooted problem... Most of the time you fix your culture to get rid of corruption, that's what we do in business as well as society, change your values and priorities...Like in US Bible Belt biggest cultural problem is backward thinking of race and religion oriented culture, that is not letting them developed, as long as they keep these cultural priorities, they will never develop, despite so many resources within USA, they can bring down the whole country if given extended power, but that culture will never bring prosperity or harmony...Pakistanis need to understand culture of Army and Religion is never going to bring prosperity or peace...You need to stop investing in those negative ideas, both Army and religion are negative forces, they need to in the background not front and center of any society

Do you not get tired writing the same things year in year out? Some of which is pure lies. Let's start with:

1. Do you have proof that army spread drugs? Actual hard proof? Not opinion, but actual proof.

Let's resolve this first and then we'll move to your other lies.

 

[yasir]

Hate Against India Or Love for Pakistan, what drives Army?

Unfortunately between these two strong emotions, hate against India triumph most of the time, when thinking about building strategic assets... All this radicalization of Pakistan society was sold by Army and even before that by of all people Bhutto as our strategic weapon against greater enemy India...

Think tank sold this vision that in-order beat bigger India, we need to build on platform of religion...This cannot be a long term vision, Maybe you can build an army based on hate but not the nation, nation needs bigger idols to look upto, you just cannot focus on hate for long period of time, religion, race or patriotism are not strong idols...Imagine if west is still in world war 2 mode, that is not sustainable or healthy...Even at personal level, how long you can hate your personal or family enemy?? - Maybe some families do it for life(in tribal settings), but those guys don't do any thing else other than injecting hate in generations after generations, at some point that hate has to stop for them to grow in life, this is waste of lot of human potential

That's what Pakistan has been doing for long period of time, nation's vision is in the hand of army, who is build on the platform of hate, this is taking us no where and anybody who raise the voice against it, is no more a Pakistan, results is they have practically no opposition...Saying something against Army and Religion is death sentence, I am not sure how we will get out of this vicious cycle of hate?

I am seeing this sort of mentality creeping in USA, this America first, White first sold as patriotism is again a very dangerous vision, atleast liberals are very strong in this country to let them change the vision so easily, we will give them big fight, not going to surrender so quickly...

As I said many times, Pakistan needs strong liberal cultural to get out of these old idols...