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The heights of folly: A critical look at the Kargil Operation

MSaad1237

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Even as adversity struck, with military pressure mounting on Pakistani troops, Commander FCNA [Force Command Northern Areas] lost his nerve … In a meeting [then major-general, later lieutenant-general, Javed Hasan] implored the others: for God’s sake, forgive me. I have made a big mistake. Now is the time for prayers.”

This Napoleon was one of the four architects of Operation Koh Paima, commonly known as the Kargil operation.

In her book, From Kargil to the Coup, journalist Nasim Zehra calls them the Kargil clique. Cabal would be a better word to describe them because, as Zehra says, “These generals planned operation KP [Koh Paima] less as intelligent and accountable strategists [and more] as covert, unaccountable campaigners.”

Her work is the first critical book-length account not just of the operation but also its aftermath, which led to a coup. Ironically, the cabal, which should have been tried for tactical and strategic idiocy, went up the totem pole. One of them, then Chief of Army Staff Pervez Musharraf entrenched himself as the president of this country. His Chief of General Staff Aziz Khan became a four-star general and the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee. Javed Hasan became a three-star general and went on to head the National Defence University and, later, the Administrative Staff College. Commander 10 Corps Mahmud Ahmed was made director-general of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).

The civilians were ousted and several, including then prime minister Nawaz Sharif, ended up in jail.

Who says failure is an orphan?

India set up a Kargil Commission to look into how and why its strategic intelligence failed so badly, why its military response was so slow and sloppy in the beginning, the problems of interoperability between the army and the air force, the high Indian casualties and the flaws in logistics and leadership in the field. The commission was headed by a civilian, not a military officer. Its mandate was wide and deep. It went into every little detail, from the tactical to the strategic. It calculated any future threat and recommended force reconfiguration, etcetera. And – this is the best part – it made its report public. In short, that country tried to learn its lessons.

No such thing happened, or could happen, in Pakistan.

Instead, as Zehra’s book title says, what began as a covert, unauthorised, illegal military operation, outside the purview not only of civilian principals but also without the knowledge of the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Navy and even the military’s own intelligence agencies, led to a military coup and the ouster of a civilian government.

But before that, the cabal had to handle the deep resentment within the army. Musharraf had to face tough questions. Hasan, the FCNA commander, could not face his troops. As Zehra mentions: “Internally … there was disquiet after the withdrawal. Instructions were that Kargil would not be discussed in any school of instruction … No courses would be taught at then-NDC [National Defence College].”

Kargil was a taboo subject and remained so for a fairly long time.

There has been a lot of speculation since 1999 about how much then prime minister Nawaz Sharif knew about the operation and also when exactly he got the full picture. Zehra’s book puts an end to that speculation. In one of the chapters, Necks on the Line and Lotus Lake, she describes the “deceptive briefings” that were given to Sharif: “On 29th January in Skardu, they told Sharif the general thrust of their intentions while not revealing the plan in full. In order to [boost] the Kashmir struggle, they said, [the FCNA troops] needed to become active along the LoC [the Line of Control].” (Emphasis added)

Sharif had no clue that Pakistani troops had already crossed the LoC and entered Indian-occupied Kashmir. As Zehra mentions, he thought that “small-scale operations could complement his political and diplomatic efforts to move forward on detente and peace with India”.

On May 17, the prime minister was given a detailed briefing at Ojhri Camp where the chiefs of the air force and the navy were also taken into confidence.

A second briefing was given in February and a third on March 13 by then major-general Jamshed Gulzar of the ISI. These briefings were completely unrelated to Operation Koh Paima or its specifics. Reason: the ISI, as also the Military Intelligence (MI), had no idea about the operation.

At one of these briefings, Musharraf proposed that militants scale up their operations in Kashmir. He also suggested that they be provided Stinger surface-to-air missiles. Former lieutenant-general and cabinet member Majeed Malik strongly objected to the proposal. Theprime minister, however, did not reprimand Musharraf for proposing the induction of a platform that would obviously be considered escalatory by India at a time when the foreign ministers of India and Pakistan were attempting to carry forward gains from the Lahore Declaration, held earlier the same year between Nawaz Sharif and his Indian counterpart Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

Zehra calls it “divergent tracks”. The Kargil cabal was pushing Pakistan and Nawaz Sharif into a direction that ran completely opposite to what Sharif was trying to achieve through the dialogue process initiated subsequent to Vajpayee’s visit to Lahore in February 1999.

While the Kargil story unfolds in the backdrop of the civil-military imbalance in Pakistan and has to be judged and analysed in and through that broader prism, it is also the tale of an operation poorly conceived and executed by the four generals — notwithstanding the outstanding bravery and battlefield performance of junior leaders and soldiers. They fought like the dickens, many volunteering to fight even after reports emerged that the defenders had been left to their own devices with rations and ammunition depleting. As Zehra writes: “The Kargil clique had no plans for [the men occupying the heights] when the enemy struck back.”

The irony is that similar plans to occupy strategic peaks along the LoC had previously been rejected at least three times.

It was not until May 16, 1999 that the cabal decided, with reports pouring in from the Indian media of skirmishes in Kargil, Dras and Batalik sectors along the LoC, to explain what had been planned and what was happening. Finally, on May 17, the prime minister was given a detailed briefing at Ojhri Camp where the chiefs of the air force and the navy were also taken into confidence.

But still there was no mention of Pakistani troops having crossed the LoC.

Those present at the briefing were told that the battle reports were all about heightened activity by militants who had occupied impregnable heights in the area while the army was providing them logistical support. Sharif was also told that he would be remembered as Fatahi Kashmir (the conqueror of Kashmir).

Unable to understand the operational maps used for the briefing, unable to figure out what the line on the map meant in terms of real distances on the ground, or what the military symbols signified, he was given the impression that “the strategic heights lay somewhere in the un-demarcated zones”.

The full extent of what had happened and the cul de sac in which Musharraf and his cabal had pushed the army and the country only became clear to Sharif when he went to Skardu’s Combined Military Hospital and saw severely wounded soldiers. The hospital’s commandant informed him that he was transporting dozens of wounded soldiers to Rawalpindi every day. Sharif was “crestfallen and teary-eyed as he walked around and comforted the wounded soldiers.”

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The book also reveals how Musharraf sent a friend to Sharif’s father, suggesting that he talk to the prime minister, his son, and advise him “to recall the troops since continued or accelerated fighting could also mean the Indians might open other war fronts. The message was conveyed and the prime minister’s father agreed to do as advised.”

Prussian officer and war theoretician, Carl von Clausewitz, wrote about war’s “triple nature”: its first level pertains to the primitive violence of people — that is, the ability to take risks and the willingness to kill; the second involves managing violence and harnessing it towards an aim — the job of military commanders; the third is a political level where a government determines the ultimate objective of a war because no clash of arms is an end in itself.

Clausewitz also understood that there would be tension between the first and the second levels as well as between the second and the third ones. But they all need to be taken together because that is what constitutes the grammar of war.

He used two terms, Zweck und Ziel, to explain these dynamics. Zweck is the purpose, the political objective, for which a war is being fought; Ziel is the aim of various battles in that war and how they are to be conducted to achieve the war’s political end. Going by this formation, Ziel must add up to Zweck.

Kargil upended this entire logic. The cabal’s assumptions – that Operation Koh Paima will bring the Kashmir dispute into sharp focus, that India will either swallow the occupation of Kargil heights or not fight back in any systemic way, that there was no possibility of India using its air force, that international arbiters, given the presence of nuclear weapons in both India and Pakistan, would seek de-escalation in Pakistan’s favour – were all deeply flawed and betrayed a poor understanding of the environment in which the operation was launched.

Of course, there were officers who realised the folly of these ‘paper tigers’, as the late lieutenant-general Iftikhar Ali Khan, who was working as the defence secretary at the time, described them to Nawaz Sharif. But they could not do much because the gang of four had given everyone a fait accompli.

Zehra’s book does not theorise about civil-military relations. Nor does it go into the theory of decision-making. It offers the reader a story, a thrilling one which is replete with information. But because the story unfolds as it does, one can clearly see the dynamics of a system where the generals exercise a reach far beyond their remit. In equal measure, it throws light on how civilian principals are used to pull the chestnuts out of fire and then scapegoated. This is a story which provides ample raw material to a theorist of civil-military relations.

The only downside of the book is its editing. It is replete with typos, transpositional errors and poor syntax. Of course, a thorough re-editing and proofing can fix all this. One hopes that the second edition of this remarkable book will be put through a rigorous editing process so that it comes out cleansed and fresh.


https://herald.dawn.com/news/1398650



A must read piece.
 
Sharif teary eyed at wounded troops, give me a break. The same Sharif who's government gunned down pregnant civilians.

I stopped reading after that
 
''The only downside of the book is its editing. It is replete with typos, transpositional errors and poor syntax. Of course, a thorough re-editing and proofing can fix all this.''

:91:
 
I hope Sharif is enjoying basi roti in prison. He deserves it for not supporting the military during the Kargil war.
 
You tried in 1948. Couldnot.

Tried in 1965 couldnot.

Pakistan simply doesnot have the ability to do it.



In 48 we took about 35% of Kashmir and had we attacked you in 1962 (during on-going Sino-India) war we'd have taken the rest of it aswell..


We just didn't take full advantage of the situations at hand . Kargil should've been done immediately after Siachin under Zia's regime , not after both the country's have tested their Nuclear weapons and the eyes of the whole world were stuck towards this region.
 
You tried in 1948. Couldnot.

Tried in 1965 couldnot.

Pakistan simply doesnot have the ability to do it.




Also in 1965 had we been better prepared and predicted an all out war we'd have fortified our defences across the Working boundary and would have capitalised on the successes we made in Kashmir instead of pulling all our forces out of there (Bad move).


Not to mention Op. Grandslam broke the backbone of Indian forces in Kashmir and India saw Kashmir slipping out of its hands that's why it opened fronts on Lahore and Sialkot and we were absolutely not prepared for that.
 
In 48 we took about 35% of Kashmir and had we attacked you in 1962 (during on-going Sino-India) war we'd have taken the rest of it aswell..


We just didn't take full advantage of the situations at hand . Kargil should've been done immediately after Siachin under Zia's regime , not after both the country's have tested their Nuclear weapons and the eyes of the whole world were stuck towards this region.

1. In 1948 the territory captured was from the forces of hari singh. Pakistan was kilometres from Srinagar. The Indian forces landed and pushed back the Pakistani forces to a small area.

2.Just because China was able to defeat Indian forces doesnot mean Pakistan could as well.

3. And what would have Zia done? Was he a superman?
 
Also in 1965 had we been better prepared and predicted an all out war we'd have fortified our defences across the Working boundary and would have capitalised on the successes we made in Kashmir instead of pulling all our forces out of there (Bad move).


Not to mention Op. Grandslam broke the backbone of Indian forces in Kashmir and India saw Kashmir slipping out of its hands that's why it opened fronts on Lahore and Sialkot and we were absolutely not prepared for that.

Pakistan would have never managed that as india would have stretched the pakistani forces along the whole international border.Pakistani army is known for its miscalculation regarding Indian response.

Pakistan had concentrated its entire elite force in Kashmir againist a less equipped and smaller indian force. It was obvious that India would try to cut off that attacking force with a flanking attack.
 
1. In 1948 the territory captured was from the forces of hari singh. Pakistan was kilometres from Srinagar. The Indian forces landed and pushed back the Pakistani forces to a small area.

2.Just because China was able to defeat Indian forces doesnot mean Pakistan could as well.

3. And what would have Zia done? Was he a superman?




Pakistani forces who liberated Azad Kashmir mostly consisted of irregulars i.e Tribal Lashkars later supported by Pak army , heck Pakistan didn't even have a proper Army at that time nor the logistics to sustain a full fledged war yet we fought you for 1 and a half year , and managed to defend the majority of areas we caputured from much superior opposition in numbers and war equipment.


2. Pakistan had the best chance of capturing Kashmir in 1962 , and such a Golden opportunity will never come again. Coward Ayub Khan succummed to American pressure and decided not to send forces in Kashmir ,only to fight a full fledged war with India 3 years later.

There was no way India would have sustained a coordinated Sino-Pak attack (a two front war)during that period of time.

Read this ..

https://tribune.com.pk/story/973912...cking-vulnerable-india-in-62-ex-cia-official/


3. Had Kargil been done soon after Siachin there wouldn't have been such International backlash that we witnessed during Kargil war against Pakistan when attention of the whole World was pointed towards this region due to the nuclear tests.
 
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^Not to mention it was India who went to UN for ceasefire during the 1948 war..
 
I hope Sharif is enjoying basi roti in prison. He deserves it for not supporting the military during the Kargil war.
Sharif recently had a McDonald's Fish Burger special delivery
 
So you think we'd have won Kargil if Pak army hadn't pulled out??

According to the Indian generals who themselves were involved, yes, pakistans blunder was having NS as PM.

In mountain warefare, pakistani armies efforts are considered heroic.
 
Hypocrisy of people....

Same people calling for peace while gloriously trying to gloat about a full fledged war.... Wah bhai! Double standard should have some limits but in this thread, it is gone over the roof.
 
Another one of the lifafa expert brigade who lives off peddling narrative that outsiders want to hear......

Easy gig this.
 
Pakistani forces who liberated Azad Kashmir mostly consisted of irregulars i.e Tribal Lashkars later supported by Pak army , heck Pakistan didn't even have a proper Army at that time nor the logistics to sustain a full fledged war yet we fought you for 1 and a half year , and managed to defend the majority of areas we caputured from much superior opposition in numbers and war equipment.


2. Pakistan had the best chance of capturing Kashmir in 1962 , and such a Golden opportunity will never come again. Coward Ayub Khan succummed to American pressure and decided not to send forces in Kashmir ,only to fight a full fledged war with India 3 years later.

There was no way India would have sustained a coordinated Sino-Pak attack (a two front war)during that period of time.

Read this ..

https://tribune.com.pk/story/973912...cking-vulnerable-india-in-62-ex-cia-official/


3. Had Kargil been done soon after Siachin there wouldn't have been such International backlash that we witnessed during Kargil war against Pakistan when attention of the whole World was pointed towards this region due to the nuclear tests.

1. India inherited the same army and equipment that Pakistan inherited. Pakistan army totally supported the Pakistani tribals etc in Kashmir.The Indian army arrived just in time or Srinagar would have fallen. So when faced with the Indian Army Pakistan Army actually lost ground and would not have been successful in capturing the whole of Kashmir.

2.I guess you dont know that China withdrew and declared unilateral ceasefire in 1962.Try to find out why they did it. And why Pakistan had no little chance of taking Kashmir.

3.No international backlash would have allowed the Pak army to beat the Indian army?
 
^Not to mention it was India who went to UN for ceasefire during the 1948 war..

Nehru went to UN despite the entire cabinet and the deputy PM advising him not to do so.Nehru did a lot of things to raise himself as a international statesman and as heir to Gandhi.
 
According to the Indian generals who themselves were involved, yes, pakistans blunder was having NS as PM.

In mountain warefare, pakistani armies efforts are considered heroic.

Can you post a proper source for this claim that Indian General involved in Kargil said Pakistan lost due to NS?
 
The Pakistani Army are hopeless.

If I was Imran Khan, I would slash their salaries by 50% no questions asked. Either that, or disband them and get a new bunch of guys who can invade and conquer at will, rather than lose pieces of the country from time to time, play havoc with any ongoing democratic process, and be meek and feeble against preventing bomb blasts and suicide attacks the like.
 
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26th July is when this conflict ended as per wiki.
 
Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Sunday recalled Indian Army’s victory in the Kargil War in 1999, and criticised Pakistan saying it undertook the misadventure with sinister plans to capture India’s land.

“Today is Kargil Vijay Diwas. 21 years ago, on this day our Army won the Kargil war. India can never forget circumstances under which the war was fought. Pakistan undertook this misadventure with sinister plans to capture India’s land and to divert its ongoing internal conflicts,” PM Modi said on Mann ki Baat.

“India was then trying to have cordial relations with Pakistan but as it is said it is the nature of wicked to have enmity with everyone for no reason. People of such nature think evil even of those who do good to them. That is why in response to India’s friendly endeavours Pakistan tried to backstab. But the world witnessed the valour and strength of India’s brave forces,” he added.

“You can imagine, the enemy was perched high on the mountains while our forces were fighting them. But the high morale and true grit of our forces won against mountains,” said the prime minister.

Earlier, PM Modi had tweeted on India’s victory in Kargil and said that “we remember the courage and determination of our armed forces”.

On July 26, 1999, the Indian armed forces had defeated Pakistan in a conflict in Jammu and Kashmir’s Kargil district. Since then, the day is celebrated as ‘Kargil Vijay Diwas’ to rekindle the pride and valour of the soldiers who took part in Operation Vijay.

The conflict began in May 1999 after Indian forces detected infiltrations by Pakistani troops and terrorists into Indian territory. The Pakistani side had a strategic advantage during the start of the conflict as they had positioned themselves in key locations and could fire at advancing Indian troops.

After identifying the points of incursions, the Indian Army had launched Operation Vijay to take on the Pakistanis. The Indian Air Force too joined the conflict with their MiG-21, MiG-27 and Mirage-2000 fighters firing rockets and missiles at “fortified enemy positions” from their side of Line of Control or LoC.

The victory came after nearly three-month-long battle in the icy heights of Kargil.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ann-ki-baat/story-zzFbRygsERtm9HLlNboqFJ.html
 
So you think we'd have won Kargil if Pak army hadn't pulled out??

Long term it is difficult to say, but Pakistan army were in a very good position at the time, only threats from Clinton who was President of the US at the time, persuaded Sharif to withdraw. against the wishes of his own military who were supremely confident in their mission.
 
Long term it is difficult to say, but Pakistan army were in a very good position at the time, only threats from Clinton who was President of the US at the time, persuaded Sharif to withdraw. against the wishes of his own military who were supremely confident in their mission.

If at that time had pakistan not pulled back it would have turned in to a full scale war
 
If at that time had pakistan not pulled back it would have turned in to a full scale war

Zero chance of that. Infact Clinton was told Pakistan had started massing nukes near the border. He says that in his book that when he told Nawaz that Musharraf had nukes near the border Nawaz turned red and started sweating :))

There will be no full scale war due to nukes. Even under the madman Modi it's not happened. And for a good reason.

All Pakistan had to do was to stay two more weeks instead of buckling under US pressure. But oh well. For the record though I did not agree with Kargil. Esp after the Lahore summit.
 
Zero chance of that. Infact Clinton was told Pakistan had started massing nukes near the border. He says that in his book that when he told Nawaz that Musharraf had nukes near the border Nawaz turned red and started sweating :))

There will be no full scale war due to nukes. Even under the madman Modi it's not happened. And for a good reason.

All Pakistan had to do was to stay two more weeks instead of buckling under US pressure. But oh well. For the record though I did not agree with Kargil. Esp after the Lahore summit.
So what does that mean? Look its not like that what you presume. What do you think India would not have attacked eastern border fearing nukes? At that time Pakistan did not have tactical weapons so using nukes at that time against India meant a counter nuclear strike else some serious sanctions.
 
So what does that mean? Look its not like that what you presume. What do you think India would not have attacked eastern border fearing nukes? At that time Pakistan did not have tactical weapons so using nukes at that time against India meant a counter nuclear strike else some serious sanctions.

???? What are you on about?

Nukes meant there would have never been a full scale war. It was proven in 2001 just two years later then again in 2008 and many times since then.

We bowed down to US pressure when we should never have. It was our misfortune we had a donkey who wilted under pressure Infront of Clinton. This is not me saying it, you can read this directly from Clinton's book himself who put on massive pressure on Pakistan to withdraw and said if we didn't withdraw the US would put crippling sanctions on us.

Maybe read up some books instead of talking about things you clearly have no idea about
 
???? What are you on about?

Nukes meant there would have never been a full scale war. It was proven in 2001 just two years later then again in 2008 and many times since then.

We bowed down to US pressure when we should never have. It was our misfortune we had a donkey who wilted under pressure Infront of Clinton. This is not me saying it, you can read this directly from Clinton's book himself who put on massive pressure on Pakistan to withdraw and said if we didn't withdraw the US would put crippling sanctions on us.

Maybe read up some books instead of talking about things you clearly have no idea about
OK Since you are well versed about this issue so i have some questions ?What does having nukes at border mean? Do you mean that India could not invade us due to fear of nukes at that time ?
 
OK Since you are well versed about this issue so i have some questions ?What does having nukes at border mean? Do you mean that India could not invade us due to fear of nukes at that time ?
I hope you're not trolling as it's not a difficult thing to understand.


There can be no full scale war due to nukes, anywhere. That's the point of having them. Otherwise India would have invaded us on atleast 4 occasions in the last 20 years alone.
 
OK Since you are well versed about this issue so i have some questions ?What does having nukes at border mean? Do you mean that India could not invade us due to fear of nukes at that time ?

Lol at the thought of India invading. If India had any interest in invading Pakistan, why do you think they haven't done so in 70 years of Pakistan thumbing their nose at them?

India gave up their own territory both east and west in order that Hindus could dominate what was left of the once glorious Indian empire presided over by the Mughals and the British.
 
I hope you're not trolling as it's not a difficult thing to understand.


There can be no full scale war due to nukes, anywhere. That's the point of having them. Otherwise India would have invaded us on atleast 4 occasions in the last 20 years alone.

No i am not trolling you. YOU are right that there is no chance of war due to nukes.But at the time of Kargil Pakistan just had aerial platform to deliver nukes the F16 they had hataf missiles are battlefield missiles. Musharaf acknowledged in his book that Pakistan did not have nuclear delivery system at the time of kargil
 
Musharraff was the ultimate winner.

The guy made a mockery of the civilian government, his armed forces and then proceeded to rule the country for almost a decade.

Absolute con job. :bow:
 
Lol at the thought of India invading. If India had any interest in invading Pakistan, why do you think they haven't done so in 70 years of Pakistan thumbing their nose at them?

India gave up their own territory both east and west in order that Hindus could dominate what was left of the once glorious Indian empire presided over by the Mughals and the British.

Invasion in retaliation
 
one of the worst chapters in paks military history. intelligence had continued to show that an engagement in kargil would not be the catalyst to the falling of indian kashmir during the time of even the most zealous military dictatorships.

the generals involved should have been court marshalled for the clandestine operation they ran to prepare for the the war, and how they went out of their way to keep everyone in the dark, because they knew it was unlikely to be approved on a governance level.

running supply lines in those territories is virtually impossible, and the idea that you could run supply lines for an active engagement in helicopters is nuts, and was the case under force of counter attacks the supply lines started failing. the fact that they expanded the operation without expanding the supply lines was borderline criminal.

Long term it is difficult to say, but Pakistan army were in a very good position at the time, only threats from Clinton who was President of the US at the time, persuaded Sharif to withdraw. against the wishes of his own military who were supremely confident in their mission.

pakistan had the advantage of surprise, india would have been far better equipped to supply a defense force within IoK (even if they had to retreat and reground) than Pak would have been advancing, and the Pak army was neither prepared, nor had the thought of the consequences of opening of other fronts.

yes Pakistan had occupied good positions, but supply lines would have been untenable without the support of the air force, who weren't even consulted on the preparation of the operation.

there are many instances where outcomes and final positions are difficult to ascertain, however in strategic terms kargil is one of the biggest screw ups in general military history imo.
 
one of the worst chapters in paks military history. intelligence had continued to show that an engagement in kargil would not be the catalyst to the falling of indian kashmir during the time of even the most zealous military dictatorships.

the generals involved should have been court marshalled for the clandestine operation they ran to prepare for the the war, and how they went out of their way to keep everyone in the dark, because they knew it was unlikely to be approved on a governance level.

running supply lines in those territories is virtually impossible, and the idea that you could run supply lines for an active engagement in helicopters is nuts, and was the case under force of counter attacks the supply lines started failing. the fact that they expanded the operation without expanding the supply lines was borderline criminal.



pakistan had the advantage of surprise, india would have been far better equipped to supply a defense force within IoK (even if they had to retreat and reground) than Pak would have been advancing, and the Pak army was neither prepared, nor had the thought of the consequences of opening of other fronts.

yes Pakistan had occupied good positions, but supply lines would have been untenable without the support of the air force, who weren't even consulted on the preparation of the operation.

there are many instances where outcomes and final positions are difficult to ascertain, however in strategic terms kargil is one of the biggest screw ups in general military history imo.
Well said infact india recapured70% of occupied territory even before supply line of Pak army was cut off
 
Musharraff was the ultimate winner.

The guy made a mockery of the civilian government, his armed forces and then proceeded to rule the country for almost a decade.

Absolute con job. :bow:
So true tbh lol :mush conned everyone :)))
 
Shifting goalposts now are we ?

FYI, India does not call the land it invaded in '65 "it's own"

Exactly. Which goes to show the "success" of their so called invasion. Even little countries like Pakistan can see them off, no wonder they don't want to mix it with genuine military rivals such as China.
 
But the world witnessed the valour and strength of India’s brave forces,” he added.

“You can imagine, the enemy was perched high on the mountains while our forces were fighting them. But the high morale and true grit of our forces won against mountains,” said the prime minister.

Earlier, PM Modi had tweeted on India’s victory in Kargil and said that “we remember the courage and determination of our armed forces”.

I don't get this, how are the Indian forces brave and courageous? They were browbeaten and ran away like chickens against a force of equal size.

As far as I know, India can only act brave and tough and against a nation 7 times smaller and force half the size. Lol.
 
Exactly. Which goes to show the "success" of their so called invasion. Even little countries like Pakistan can see them off, no wonder they don't want to mix it with genuine military rivals such as China.

You said India never invaded Pakistan in 70 years which was factually wrong so I just had to correct you and I certainly did that.

Don't want to get too deep into the "success" part of that invasion. :)
 
I don't get this, how are the Indian forces brave and courageous? They were browbeaten and ran away like chickens against a force of equal size.

As far as I know, India can only act brave and tough and against a nation 7 times smaller and force half the size. Lol.

Ran away ? When ? :))

This is "Chori kisne ki main ne toh nahi ki" on a whole another level.
 
You said India never invaded Pakistan in 70 years which was factually wrong so I just had to correct you and I certainly did that.

Don't want to get too deep into the "success" part of that invasion. :)

Of course you don't because it wasn't successful. Only Indians think an invasion which failed is something to brag about.
 
NEW DELHI: Former prime minister Nawaz Sharif and his Indian counterpart, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, spoke to each other on the phone at least five times during the course of the 1999 Kargil war, with the latter veering to the view that Mr Sharif had been bamboozled by then army chief General Pervez Musharraf into the conflict, The Hindu said on Sunday, quoting from a new book by Mr Vajpayee’s private secretary.

The book on Mr Vajpayee’s tumultuous tenure, Vajpayee: The Years That Changed India by former bureaucrat Shakti Sinha, who served as Vajpayee’s private secretary for many years, goes on to say that the communication was kept up after a telling incident between Mr Sharif and R.K. Mishra, a former head of the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), the man selected for back channel talks to end the conflict.

“…Sharif’s position was a tenuous one, and in a later meeting, he indicated to Mishra that they should take a walk in the garden, obviously suspecting that his own house was tapped. When Mishra reported this to Vajpayee, the latter took this as an indication that Sharif was more a prisoner of circumstances than anything else,” says the book.

One of the calls occurred in June from Srinagar, after Vajpayee had made a visit to Kargil. “On his arrival in Srinagar, Vajpayee asked me to connect him to Sharif. My small team and I tried, but we just could not get through. Then one of the local officers present informed us that dialling Pakistan (+92) from Jammu and Kash*mir was barred. The telecom authorities were told to open the facility for a short while, so that the two prime ministers could talk,” says the book.

A major factor in the withdrawal of Pakistani troops from the LoC, the book claims, was two telephonic recordings that Arvind Dave, then chief of Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), India’s external intelligence agency, brought to Prime Minister Vajpayee. “Arvind Dave, the R&AW chief, came up with two telephonic recordings between the Pakistan Army chief Pervez Musharraf, and his chief of general staff, Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz. It was clear that the Pakistan Army was involved, with the Mujahideen playing a minor role, if any,” says the book.

The tapes were shared with the media later, but were also smuggled into Pakistan for Mr Sharif via the diplomatic route along with diplomat Vivek Katju and back channel point person R.K. Mishra.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1596957/nawaz-vajpayee-spoke-over-phone-in-midst-of-kargil-war-says-book
 
The former prime minister spoke with party leaders and workers in Lahore as his party gears up for the upcoming general election in the country.

Nawaz Sharif recalled how Pakistan’s economy prospered under his rule until 2017 but then he was replaced with an ‘anaari’ (inexperienced) person, who mismanaged the economy and ruined it.

He said every time he became prime minister he properly managed the affair, but he does not know why he was removed from power. “We said there should be no war in Kargil. Was it for this that I was ousted? We were right. Today time has proved that we were right. We did the right thing. Our decision taken at the time was correct.”

Sharif said the never hesitated when taking bold decisions whenever it involved the question of the country’s respect and dignity. He cited his decision to test nuclear devices in May 1998.

Nawaz Sharif said Pakistan cannot make progress when its relations with neighbours are frosty. “How could it be possible that your neighbours are unhappy with you and you rise on the world stage.”

Sharif said Pakistan needs to put its relations with India, Afghanistan and Iran on the correct course. “We need to strengthened our affairs with China,” he said.

Source: AAJ News

 
Nawaz Sharif's reflection on the Kargil War underscores his commitment to a diplomatic approach. He is absolutely right, relations with neighbors should be good.
 
Wars are never good. The human toll it takes is devastating. Soldiers from both sides fight baed on the orders.from politicians and generals. Musharraf misadventure cost so many soldier's lives on both sides. And the thing is these generals and politicians are in their cosy air conditioned houses and then retire rich and the common soldiers and their families suffer lifelong. Plus the common public just starts spewing venom for the follies of these unaccountable generals. And the families of these soldiers suffer tremendously lifelong with lost kin and then struggle to get the pensions with so.much redtape..
It is easy for armchair internet keyboard warriors like all of us here to say we won we captured so many soldiers or killed so many etc etc because it's not our kids or parents going to die in the war. And a vast majority of the soldiers are.from poorer families. And if you are captured as a pow your entire life is miserable and traumatic. Also your economies are ruined as wars are very expensive. Not to mention the brainwashing of a complete generation of young people.
 
Kargil Vijay Diwas 2024: History, celebrations and quotes

Kargil Vijay Diwas is held annually on July 26 to honour the valour and pride of the soldiers who took part in Operation Vijay. Kargil Diwas is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year.

HISTORY OF KARGIL DIWAS:

.Kargil On Vijay Diwas, India honours its victory over Pakistan in the 1999 Kargil War. After Pakistani forces broke into Indian territory at Kargil, there was a bloody battle that resulted in this conflict.

The Lahore Declaration, which attempted to bring about peace in February 1999, did not stop the war's fierce fighting in the difficult Himalayan terrain. The battle ended on July 26, 1999, when Indian outposts were successfully retaken from Pakistani forces.

This day celebrates strategic success and bolsters national pride by paying tribute to the valour and sacrifices made by the Indian military forces.

LATEST UPDATE ON CELEBRATIONS:

Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi will visit the Kargil War Memorial on July 26, 2024, on the 25th Kargil Vijay Diwas, at approximately 9:20 AM, to honour the courageous individuals who gave their lives in the line of duty.

The prime minister will virtually carry out the first explosion of the Shinkun La Tunnel Project, which aims to build a 4.1 km twin-tube tunnel at 15,800 feet that will give all-weather connectivity to Leh.

When it is finished, it will be the highest tunnel in the world, promoting Ladakh's social and economic growth and guaranteeing quick passage for military personnel and equipment.

On July 26, there will be several events in Kargil to commemorate the 25th anniversary of Kargil Vijay Diwas. One of the events is an "All Women Motorbike Rally," which is being arranged by Headquarters Uniform Force.

According to a press statement from Defence PRO, 25 seasoned women riders from all over India, including Military Spouses, Serving Women Officers, and Other Ranks, will be participating in the demonstration, which will be a celebration of the strength of women (Nari Shakti) and the unwavering spirit of Indian warriors.

QUOTES FOR VIJAY DIWAS:

"The preservation of freedom is not the task of soldiers alone. The whole nation has to be strong." - Lal Bahadur Shastri

"Victory doesn't come cheap, we also had to carry some beers... A tribute to the martyrs of India" - Amitesh Sodhiya

"Don't worry. Either I will come waving the tricolour after the victory or I will come wrapped in the same tricolour. But I will definitely come" - Captain Vikram Batra

“The sword of revolution is sharpened on the whetting stone of ideas: - Bhagat Singh

SOURCE: https://www.indiatoday.in/informati...ry-celebrations-and-quotes-2571622-2024-07-26
 
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