The ineptness of the Indian Air Force

[re82h]

The IAF already knew this. You've lost nearly 800 pilots to aircraft like this. Its not rocket science. Serious questions need to be asked. You can understand if the country has an economic problem and must keep older equipment running like the PAF. But india has a good big economy and resources available. So whats the problem?

probably a few reasons:

1) a bloated public sector supply chain that needs to keep people employed
2) corruption in procurement deals
3) lack of incentives for people to become pilots compared to the private sector
4) Lack of a real strategy to deal with China, pakistan and the pacific area.
5) The need to streamline the procurement process
6) poor training and complacent strategy

The PAF has many problems too but we are lucky we are facing the IAF not the isreali airforce..

i think you will find that we are facing Israeli Air Force to a certain level as well.
The captured Israeli Pilot is not a myth.

 

[msaaim89]

i think you will find that we are facing Israeli Air Force to a certain level as well.
The captured Israeli Pilot is not a myth.

So what happened to the israeli pilot? IK undercover released him?

 

[KingKhan12]

Israeli pilot is not a myth and a true reality. I was in Pakistan during all that conflict.

 

[Syed1]

Israeli pilot is not a myth and a true reality. I was in Pakistan during all that conflict.

It's not true... had it been the case Pak would have launched a diplomatic offensive against Israel.

 

[msb314]

It's not true... had it been the case Pak would have launched a diplomatic offensive against Israel.

Any update on the fate of the second pilot? Who was he and what happened to him?

 

[Syed1]

Any update on the fate of the second pilot? Who was he and what happened to him?

There was no second pilot, it has been clarified hundreds of times but for some people it has to be drilled in again and again. MIG21 that was flown by Abhinandan is a single seater. It was engaged and shot down in Pakistani airspace. The SU-30 is a dual seater fighter jet. It was engaged in IOK and was shot down there.


Two different army teams arrived on the ground to capture Abhinandan and they both reported independently that a pilot has been captured, in the heat of the moment it was thought that the teams were talking about different pilots.

 

[Nostalgic]

It's not true... had it been the case Pak would have launched a diplomatic offensive against Israel.

You never know with these things: maybe we drove a hard bargain on some unknown issue in exchange for quietly returning him... if there was a him.

Oh to be a fly on the wall when issues such as these are discussed in the rarefied echelons lesser mortals aren’t privy to...

 

[Syed1]

You never know with these things: maybe we drove a hard bargain on some unknown issue in exchange for quietly returning him... if there was a him.

Oh to be a fly on the wall when issues such as these are discussed in the rarefied echelons lesser mortals aren’t privy to...

Bhai even if it was true, a MIG21 is a single seater jet and it was being flown by Abhinandan. Where was the Israeli pilot seated then? On the wing?

 

[Nostalgic]

Bhai even if it was true, a MIG21 is a single seater jet and it was being flown by Abhinandan. Where was the Israeli pilot seated then? On the wing?

Maybe there was a second plane afterall, and covering up the existence of a potentially Israeli second pilot entails covering up the existence of the second wreckage also?

Not saying it is so, just that it could be so...

 

[KingKhan12]

It's not true... had it been the case Pak would have launched a diplomatic offensive against Israel.

It is true. I actually have a relative in the army who i met during this conflict and i asked about this rumour and he confirmed it. I don't want to go into details of what he told me. Pakistan did declare of capturing 2 pilots but when they realised one of them was a Israeli they only said we captured 1 don't know reason behind this only the top officials know.
When Pakistan announced to release the Indian pilot the firing on LOC actual got worser and their was intelligence reports the following day after capturing these pilots that India along with Israel are looking to launch a big strike in Pakistan. Whole Pakistan was a blackout and the army was prepared and it was Karachi which was main target but our Army knew they upto something and they gave a warning back if any mishap they try we will respond back massively. When they realised Pakistan knew about their plan they backed of. But i have no clue if that pilot is realised or what as after a month I came back UK and since not been in touch with my relative.

 

[the Great Khan]

i think you will find that we are facing Israeli Air Force to a certain level as well.
The captured Israeli Pilot is not a myth.

err its a myth..just fake news..

 

[the Great Khan]

It is true. I actually have a relative in the army who i met during this conflict and i asked about this rumour and he confirmed it. I don't want to go into details of what he told me. Pakistan did declare of capturing 2 pilots but when they realised one of them was a Israeli they only said we captured 1 don't know reason behind this only the top officials know.
When Pakistan announced to release the Indian pilot the firing on LOC actual got worser and their was intelligence reports the following day after capturing these pilots that India along with Israel are looking to launch a big strike in Pakistan. Whole Pakistan was a blackout and the army was prepared and it was Karachi which was main target but our Army knew they upto something and they gave a warning back if any mishap they try we will respond back massively. When they realised Pakistan knew about their plan they backed of. But i have no clue if that pilot is realised or what as after a month I came back UK and since not been in touch with my relative.

myth. Many PA officers dont have complete knowledge. I knew a relative who was adamant that mushy would be back as president because his "contacts" in the ISI told him..all of this is unverifiable and doesnt really fit the actual evidence.

What plane was the Isreali flying? he cant have been in the MIg. So he must have been in the SU30. But that landed in IOK not in Pakistan. So how did we capture this phantom pilot?

 

[KingKhan12]

myth. Many PA officers dont have complete knowledge. I knew a relative who was adamant that mushy would be back as president because his "contacts" in the ISI told him..all of this is unverifiable and doesnt really fit the actual evidence.

What plane was the Isreali flying? he cant have been in the MIg. So he must have been in the SU30. But that landed in IOK not in Pakistan. So how did we capture this phantom pilot?

I was in doubts too but he is a top general in the PA and he actually seen proof of capture of the Israeli pilot and was in briefing with the pilot mentioned. I go by his word.

 

[msb314]

There was no second pilot, it has been clarified hundreds of times but for some people it has to be drilled in again and again. MIG21 that was flown by Abhinandan is a single seater. It was engaged and shot down in Pakistani airspace. The SU-30 is a dual seater fighter jet. It was engaged in IOK and was shot down there.


Two different army teams arrived on the ground to capture Abhinandan and they both reported independently that a pilot has been captured, in the heat of the moment it was thought that the teams were talking about different pilots.

I meant who was the pilot of the Su-30 plane? Was he captured as well and if so what was his fate?

I’ve heard multiple stories ranging from how he was an Israeli pilot and hence the story went hush hush to how he perished from his injuries upon crash landing and our government covered it up to prevent escalation.

Not sure what is true...

 

[msb314]

Maybe there was a second plane afterall, and covering up the existence of a potentially Israeli second pilot entails covering up the existence of the second wreckage also?

Not saying it is so, just that it could be so...

The theory of the Israeli pilot is surrounding the Su-30 plane that was shot down.

As mentioned before - no idea if these stories are true or not..

 

[Varun]

IAF chopper in Budgam crashed on Feb 27 after hit by Indian missile: probe report

At least four officers, including a group captain, were held responsible for the crash of the chopper in the friendly fire and are set to face severe punishment, military sources said on Friday.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...missile-probe-report/articleshow/70808691.cms

Time to get an I <3 Indian Air Force tattoo. Not.

 

[InsideCrease]

There was no second pilot, it has been clarified hundreds of times but for some people it has to be drilled in again and again. MIG21 that was flown by Abhinandan is a single seater. It was engaged and shot down in Pakistani airspace. The SU-30 is a dual seater fighter jet. It was engaged in IOK and was shot down there.


Two different army teams arrived on the ground to capture Abhinandan and they both reported independently that a pilot has been captured, in the heat of the moment it was thought that the teams were talking about different pilots.

So one team falsely reported that one pilot was injured and was admitted in hospital while other reported about the same pilot as only arrested? And they announced it to the world showing documents recovered from "both" pilots?

 

[Syed1]

So one team falsely reported that one pilot was injured and was admitted in hospital while other reported about the same pilot as only arrested? And they announced it to the world showing documents recovered from "both" pilots?

Abhinandan was taken to hospital.

 

[InsideCrease]

Abhinandan was taken to hospital.

So one team reported separately that he stayed in hospital and one reported that he was in custody? And both teams shared documents recovered from him so they thought there are two pilots.... Interesting indeed!

 

[msaaim89]

The theory of the Israeli pilot is surrounding the Su-30 plane that was shot down.

As mentioned before - no idea if these stories are true or not..

Unfortunately, there is a lot the common person will have hidden from him.

 

[Syed1]

So one team reported separately that he stayed in hospital and one reported that he was in custody? And both teams shared documents recovered from him so they thought there are two pilots.... Interesting indeed!

You can try to twist it however you want. Reality is two planes were shot down. One in Pakistan and other in IOK. Deal with it.


Another third aircraft was also shot down, but this was by Indians themselves who wet their diapers seeing a swarm of Pakistani jets in Indian airspace and shot down their own helicopter mistaking it for a foe.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You can try to twist it however you want. Reality is two planes were shot down. One in Pakistan and other in IOK. Deal with it.


Another third aircraft was also shot down, but this was by Indians themselves who wet their diapers seeing a swarm of Pakistani jets in Indian airspace and shot down their own helicopter mistaking it for a foe.

Yes two planes were shot down that day. One mig 21 and one F16. Deal with it.

We know who wet their diapets when12 mirages went to Balakote and bombed it, and returned, with no PAF fighter engaging it. And here a IAF mig 21 chased a f16 into Pok and brought it down.

 

[Syed1]

Yes two planes were shot down that day. One mig 21 and one F16. Deal with it.

We know who wet their diapets when12 mirages went to Balakote and bombed it, and returned, with no PAF fighter engaging it. And here a IAF mig 21 chased a f16 into Pok and brought it down.

) )
Ok whatever floats your boat yatri

 

[Syed1]

Hindutva sangis still believe a F-16 was shot down even though all four missiles of Abhi-none-dones plane were intact ) ) )

Maybe thats why filthy Modi said "Rafale hotay tou itna nuqsaan nahi hota" )

 

[MSaad1237]

It is true. I actually have a relative in the army who i met during this conflict and i asked about this rumour and he confirmed it. I don't want to go into details of what he told me. Pakistan did declare of capturing 2 pilots but when they realised one of them was a Israeli they only said we captured 1 don't know reason behind this only the top officials know.
When Pakistan announced to release the Indian pilot the firing on LOC actual got worser and their was intelligence reports the following day after capturing these pilots that India along with Israel are looking to launch a big strike in Pakistan. Whole Pakistan was a blackout and the army was prepared and it was Karachi which was main target but our Army knew they upto something and they gave a warning back if any mishap they try we will respond back massively. When they realised Pakistan knew about their plan they backed of. But i have no clue if that pilot is realised or what as after a month I came back UK and since not been in touch with my relative.

Just curious, if the Su 30 was shot inside IOK airspace then how did the second pilot land in Pakistan?
Or was Abdhinandan's Mig 21 that we shot down a dual seater?

 

[pkckt]

Yes two planes were shot down that day. One mig 21 and one F16. Deal with it.

We know who wet their diapets when12 mirages went to Balakote and bombed it, and returned, with no PAF fighter engaging it. And here a IAF mig 21 chased a f16 into Pok and brought it down.

Any evidence for your claims here? Infact Pakistan took down 4 indian planes but don't ask me to prove it unless you provide evidence for your narrative

 

[KingKhan12]

Yes two planes were shot down that day. One mig 21 and one F16. Deal with it.

We know who wet their diapets when12 mirages went to Balakote and bombed it, and returned, with no PAF fighter engaging it. And here a IAF mig 21 chased a f16 into Pok and brought it down.

Hahaha thanks for telling us the story of the new bollywood movie. Keep dreaming son. Got taught a big lesson then and will always when you mess with our Army.

 

[KingKhan12]

Just curious, if the Su 30 was shot inside IOK airspace then how did the second pilot land in Pakistan?
Or was Abdhinandan's Mig 21 that we shot down a dual seater?

No clue mate. But definitely 2 pilots were captured and even announced.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes two planes were shot down that day. One mig 21 and one F16. Deal with it.

We know who wet their diapets when12 mirages went to Balakote and bombed it, and returned, with no PAF fighter engaging it. And here a IAF mig 21 chased a f16 into Pok and brought it down.

The Americans have counted and confirmed all F16s are in intact.

So either India shot an F16 belonging to Turkey, Thailand or one of the many other countries with these fighters or US is lying to side with Pakistan. Which is it?

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Hindutva sangis still believe a F-16 was shot down even though all four missiles of Abhi-none-dones plane were intact ) ) )

Maybe thats why filthy Modi said "Rafale hotay tou itna nuqsaan nahi hota" )

ISPR made a song for exactly this reason "mujhay dushman k bachoun ko parhaana hai" ...

 

[Varun]

Anybody - especially any Indian - who thinks we shot down an F-16 or killed 300 people or whatever is an idiot.

We shot down our own helicopter. Deal with that.

 

[Varun]

The only good thing that might have come out of this entire episode is that the boffins in our Air Force might realize that there are some gaping holes in our hard and soft portfolio and might take some measures to fix them.

But I wouldn't count on it.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Hahaha thanks for telling us the story of the new bollywood movie. Keep dreaming son. Got taught a big lesson then and will always when you mess with our Army.

We kept 93k of your Army as prisoners. We know how to deal with them.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The Americans have counted and confirmed all F16s are in intact.

So either India shot an F16 belonging to Turkey, Thailand or one of the many other countries with these fighters or US is lying to side with Pakistan. Which is it?

Show me a statement by US state dept saying that all PAF F16 are intact.

 

[cricketjoshila]

ISPR made a song for exactly this reason "mujhay dushman k bachoun ko parhaana hai" ...

Apne bacchon ko padha lo pehle.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Anybody - especially any Indian - who thinks we shot down an F-16 or killed 300 people or whatever is an idiot.

We shot down our own helicopter. Deal with that.

Can you show me anywhere that GoI or IAF made any official statement on number of dead?

Why would believing that IAF downed a F16 be consider idiotic?

IAF is yet to make any official statement on downing of the helicopter. But assuming what you say is correct, it only shows how IAF keeps things transparent and isnt into the lying business.

 

[Asim_khan]

We kept 93k of your Army as prisoners. We know how to deal with them.

You can't ask us to educate our children when you continue to pull out figures like 93k Pak army POW's out of thin despite being corrected by numerous people on this site.

Your Maths is as bad as that of the Butcher of Gujarat during the demonitisation miscalculation. What a *****.

 

[Syed1]

You can't ask us to educate our children when you continue to pull out figures like 93k Pak army POW's out of thin despite being corrected by numerous people on this site.

Your Maths is as bad as that of the Butcher of Gujarat during the demonitisation miscalculation. What a *****.

Wait till you ask him to spell strength )

 

[Asim_khan]

Wait till you ask him to spell strength )

The most embarrassing thing about that is how long he took him to spell it out, this isn't someone who was rushed into a mistake, you can literally see the rusty cogs and senile hamster running in that empty wheel of a head of his.

Can you imagine trusting him with your change after you've ordered a cuppa.

 

[Varun]

IAF is yet to make any official statement on downing of the helicopter.

Feast your eyes:

Indian Air Force probe finds friendly fire caused February 27 Budgam chopper crash, 5 officers in dock

An Indian Air Force Court of Inquiry has confirmed that an Indian missile shot down an IAF chopper in a friendly fire incident for which five officer have been found guilty

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...endly-fire-officers-guilty-1590764-2019-08-23

 

[Asim_khan]

Feast your eyes:

How do you confuse a chopper for an F16 fighter jet? Or did they genuinely think Pakistan were about to parachute in reinforcements.

If someone lost their job after this, I don't feel it should be used to bash Modi about the current unemployment crisis in India.

 

[Varun]

How do you confuse a chopper for an F16 fighter jet? Or did they genuinely think Pakistan were about to parachute in reinforcements.

From accounts, Pakistan's personnel were deploying electronic jamming tactics leaving our men confused and disoriented, so KABOOM goes our chopper.

A few sackings aren't enough though. This entire thing should be used as a lesson to clear out whatever systemic ills plague our vaunted air force.

 

[Pakpak]

You can't ask us to educate our children when you continue to pull out figures like 93k Pak army POW's out of thin despite being corrected by numerous people on this site.

Your Maths is as bad as that of the Butcher of Gujarat during the demonitisation miscalculation. What a *****.

Not only that but they teamed up with hundreds of rebels in addition to their hundreds and thousands of men snd faced a 33,000 army with no air force and no backup.

This buffoon has been corrected countless times on PP about this.

 

[InsideCrease]

You can't ask us to educate our children when you continue to pull out figures like 93k Pak army POW's out of thin despite being corrected by numerous people on this site.

Your Maths is as bad as that of the Butcher of Gujarat during the demonitisation miscalculation. What a *****.

So according to you guys how many POW's were there?

 

[Asim_khan]

So according to you guys how many POW's were there?

Look at the post above yours. It's well explained

 

[InsideCrease]

Look at the post above yours. It's well explained

I think you guys need to go through the Wikipedia article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971

 

[ethan hunt]

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/confirmed-iaf-shot-down-own-chopper/cid/1699879
They shot down their own chopper.

This was why AOC Western command was sacked the very same day . Lol @ planned retirement.


So besides losing two jets and a captured Pilot, the only thing India shot down that day was their own helicopter all this even while Pakistan had promised a" surprise " the day before . WOW.

 

[Bhaijaan]

You don't improve until there is scrutiny.

Indian army gets blind worship from the masses, especially when a right wing party comes to power.

Ever since Modi came to power, the army has become more of a tool to exert the nationalist narrative and indulge in war mongering.

You simply cannot question army's capabilities and intentions under this government, if you do you will be labelled anti national and called a member of the tuqde tuqde / Khan market / Lutyens street gang etc etc

 

[ReverseHit]

We seriously do need to make equipment upgrades to prepare for the final war that may come at some point in the future. Hopefully the whole Abhinandan episode served as a kick in the backside for the political and bureaucratic setup to speed up things. Procurement of upgraded toys is one area we cannot led red tape keep us back.

 

[Varun]

You don't improve until there is scrutiny.

Indian army gets blind worship from the masses, especially when a right wing party comes to power.

Ever since Modi came to power, the army has become more of a tool to exert the nationalist narrative and indulge in war mongering.

You simply cannot question army's capabilities and intentions under this government, if you do you will be labelled anti national and called a member of the tuqde tuqde / Khan market / Lutyens street gang etc etc

This. [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] was trying to do the same to me/us earlier in this thread, until we have to break his heart providing official sources saying that we have in fact taken down our own chopper, among other things.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You can try to twist it however you want. Reality is two planes were shot down. One in Pakistan and other in IOK. Deal with it.

Yeap willing to deal with it. All you have to do is provide proof the Sukhoi was shot down

 

[Syed1]

Yeap willing to deal with it. All you have to do is provide proof the Sukhoi was shot down

Those who need to know already know. You are nothing. A nobody. Insignificant.

 

[kk1992]

This. [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] was trying to do the same to me/us earlier in this thread, until we have to break his heart providing official sources saying that we have in fact taken down our own chopper, among other things.

The person you highlighted in your comment, is he a RSS member or supporter of RSS? He is quite vocal and active in spreading false facts. I have asked him couple of times if he is a member of RSS or supporter and he avoided to answer that question.

what defines official source?, anyone can deny official source if they have an agenda.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Yes two planes were shot down that day. One mig 21 and one F16. Deal with it.

We know who wet their diapets when12 mirages went to Balakote and bombed it, and returned, with no PAF fighter engaging it. And here a IAF mig 21 chased a f16 into Pok and brought it down.

yes, you shotdown an F-16, but we shotdown 12 Su-30mki on 27 feb, i hope you dont ask me for proof ....

 

[cricketjoshila]

This. [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] was trying to do the same to me/us earlier in this thread, until we have to break his heart providing official sources saying that we have in fact taken down our own chopper, among other things.

Trying to do what? Has the IAF officially declared that it was a friendly fire incident? No.

It has all been source based news.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The person you highlighted in your comment, is he a RSS member or supporter of RSS? He is quite vocal and active in spreading false facts. I have asked him couple of times if he is a member of RSS or supporter and he avoided to answer that question.

what defines official source?, anyone can deny official source if they have an agenda.

Can you point out where have i spread false news?

 

[kk1992]

Can you point out where have i spread false news?

please answer this question, are you a member of RSS, supporter of RSS or do you agree with RSS ideaology?

I get it, you would only believe in Indian source as long as that Indian source made India and Indian out to be perfect.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Those who need to know already know. You are nothing. A nobody. Insignificant.

Yeap thought so no proof = No Sukhoi shoot down... Thanks

 

[Syed1]

Yeap thought so no proof = No Sukhoi shoot down... Thanks &#55357;&#56397;&#55357;&#56846;

Ok have a good night

 

[Varun]

Trying to do what? Has the IAF officially declared that it was a friendly fire incident? No.

It has all been source based news.

For god's sake, an IAF court of inquiry has established the fact, and 5 officers have also been found guilty and are awaiting punishment.

Look around the Interweb to find a 'source' that satisfies you.

Let us not let the IAF off the hook here. If Feb 27 happens in 2029, I don't want us to merely bomb trees, lose a MiG-21 and its pilot (or even operate a MiG-21), and shoot down our own helicopter.

 

[cricketjoshila]

please answer this question, are you a member of RSS, supporter of RSS or do you agree with RSS ideaology?

I get it, you would only believe in Indian source as long as that Indian source made India and Indian out to be perfect.

Why do you have to ask personal questions? I am not giving you a job interview.

Why not discuss the topic?

Show me where i have spread false news. We can talk about neutral sources on that.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Show me a statement by US state dept saying that all PAF F16 are intact.

They would only openly make a statement if F16 had gone down. A reputable award winning magazine interiewed two senior officials who confirmed a count was made a short time after the event and all F16s are intact.

But of course you believe the clouds ruined Pakistan radars and Indian air Force has a lot of STREANH.

 

[KingKhanWC]

For god's sake, an IAF court of inquiry has established the fact, and 5 officers have also been found guilty and are awaiting punishment.

Look around the Interweb to find a 'source' that satisfies you.

Let us not let the IAF off the hook here. If Feb 27 happens in 2029, I don't want us to merely bomb trees, lose a MiG-21 and its pilot (or even operate a MiG-21), and shoot down our own helicopter.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] Its all over your media, 5 of your heroes are getting ready to be sentenced or is your own media and courts lying too? )

Btw they thought the chopper was a missile

What we have is a false flag killing over 40 troops and then a fake attack on trees in Pakistan, followed by Indian jet being downded, pilot captured and India shooting down their own chopper. Jai Hind

 

[Varun]

What we have is a false flag killing over 40 troops and then a fake attack on trees in Pakistan, followed by Indian jet being downded, pilot captured and India shooting down their own chopper. Jai Hind

As for you, is there any event in history that you don't consider to be a false flag?

 

[KingKhanWC]

As for you, is there any event in history that you don't consider to be a false flag?

Pretty stupid question but please explain how the bomber got hold of explosives according to the official Indian investigation report ?

 

[kk1992]

Why do you have to ask personal questions? I am not giving you a job interview.

Why not discuss the topic?

Show me where i have spread false news. We can talk about neutral sources on that.

Sir, nothing personal here.

Admitting or denying your support for a group, which has become integral part of Indian politics matter.

I did not ask you if you were married, how many gf you had or what kind of underwear you wear.

If you want to discuss politics and religion then you have to admit your views.

Your views are quite obvious but the next question is, why are you afraid to admit or answer that question.

 

[Lonewarrior]

MiG-21 crashes near Gwalior, both pilots safe

The aircraft was on a routine training mission from Gwalior Airbase when it crashed near the airfield at around 10 AM.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/mig-21-crashes-near-gwalior-both-pilots-safe/articleshow/71288178.cms

even chinese copy F7-PG isnt that bad.

 

[Realromeo]

Nothing surprising, I bet another one will crash before end of this year. Wondering how we'll do in actual warfare if we are to go head to head with China ?

 

[magpie45]

To those still thinking the IAF shot down a F16:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/did-india-shoot-down-a-pakistani-jet-u-s-count-says-no/

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...-them-missing-report/articleshow/68733231.cms

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-...ts-indias-claim-foreign-policy-report-2018244

 

[kk1992]

To those still thinking the IAF shot down a F16:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/did-india-shoot-down-a-pakistani-jet-u-s-count-says-no/

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...-them-missing-report/articleshow/68733231.cms

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/us-...ts-indias-claim-foreign-policy-report-2018244

Pak Army and ISI enjoying the luxurious life is one of the top institutions, they are capable of producing F16 within hours to days.

Khaki chaddi walay would say that just to prove their government narrative is correct.

 

[magpie45]

Apparently we distracted the Americans with Biryani half way through the count. Then moved the left most place to the right

 

[Sir-fraz]

On Air Force Day, IAF Disproves Pak Claim Of Shooting Down Sukhoi Fighter

The Indian Air Force on its 87th birthday today sprung a surprise on Pakistan in response to its claim of shooting down a Sukhoi-30MKI in February. In the clear skies above Hindon Air Force Station near Delhi, three nimble French-origin Mirage-2000s flanked by two larger Sukhoi-30MKI multirole fighter jets flew in what is known as the "Avenger" formation as the spectators below cheered for them.

The surprise? One of the two Sukhoi-30MKIs, whose call sign is "Avenger 1", that flew on the extreme right of the formation today was the same aircraft that Pakistan claimed it had shot down in the air battle in February 27, a day after Indian jets dropped Israeli-made bombs on a camp of the terror group Jaish-e-Mohammed in Balakot, deep inside Pakistan.

In more embarrassment for Pakistan, the IAF crew that piloted "Avenger-1" today was the same two-man crew that flew the Sukhoi-30MKI on the day the air battle happened.

"We acknowledge the contributions of all personnel of Commands, Stations and Units who silently and professionally contributed to the success of the air strikes on the terrorist camps at Balakot earlier this year," Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria said today at Hindon Air Force Station. Army chief General Bipin Rawat also attended the event.

The IAF has said Pakistan's "false claim" of shooting down a Sukhoi-30MKI was an attempt to cover up for the loss of its own aircraft, an American-made F-16, which Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman had shot down before the Russian-origin MiG-21 Bison that he piloted fell to enemy fire. Wing Commander Varthaman was awarded the Vir Chakra for shooting down the Pakistani F-16.

In a comeback, the Wing Commander today also led a formation of MiG-21 Bison fighter jets at Hindon. The 'Bison' variant is a highly upgraded version of the legacy MiG-21 from the Cold War era.

Two squadrons of the IAF - 51 Squadron and 9 Squadron - which played a role in the air strike in Balakot, were decorated with citations.

The air display at Hindon started with flag-bearing sky divers of the Akash Ganga team dropping out of an AN-32 aircraft in their colourful canopies. Next came the Chinook heavy-lift twin-rotor transport helicopter and the Apache attack helicopters, being showcased for the first time. Both these helicopters were acquired from the US and inducted into the IAF in the last few months.

The flypast included a spectacular manoeuvre by a Sukhoi-30MKI. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas too made several manoeuvres in the air as the crowd below cheered for it.

"In the recent years, the geo-political environment has been rapidly changing and uncertainties have created numerous challenges to national security. It is extremely important that we are always vigilant and alert to the existing sub-conventional threat. In the year gone by, the IAF has demonstrated its resolve and capability in punishing the perpetrators of terrorism and we need to be ever prepared to meet any contingency that challenges the defence of our country," the Air Chief Marshal said in his address to IAF personnel at Hindon.

Today is also a significant day for the IAF for another reason - Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will take delivery of India's newest multirole fighter jet Rafale in France.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/on-...ims-it-shot-down-2113472?pfrom=home-topscroll

 

[MenInG]

The Indian Air Force on its 87th birthday today sprung a surprise on Pakistan in response to its claim of shooting down a Sukhoi-30MKI in February. In the clear skies above Hindon Air Force Station near Delhi, three nimble French-origin Mirage-2000s flanked by two larger Sukhoi-30MKI multirole fighter jets flew in what is known as the "Avenger" formation as the spectators below cheered for them.

The surprise? One of the two Sukhoi-30MKIs, whose call sign is "Avenger 1", that flew on the extreme right of the formation today was the same aircraft that Pakistan claimed it had shot down in the air battle in February 27, a day after Indian jets dropped Israeli-made bombs on a camp of the terror group Jaish-e-Mohammed in Balakot, deep inside Pakistan.

In more embarrassment for Pakistan, the IAF crew that piloted "Avenger-1" today was the same two-man crew that flew the Sukhoi-30MKI on the day the air battle happened.

"We acknowledge the contributions of all personnel of Commands, Stations and Units who silently and professionally contributed to the success of the air strikes on the terrorist camps at Balakot earlier this year," Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria said today at Hindon Air Force Station. Army chief General Bipin Rawat also attended the event.

The IAF has said Pakistan's "false claim" of shooting down a Sukhoi-30MKI was an attempt to cover up for the loss of its own aircraft, an American-made F-16, which Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman had shot down before the Russian-origin MiG-21 Bison that he piloted fell to enemy fire. Wing Commander Varthaman was awarded the Vir Chakra for shooting down the Pakistani F-16.

In a comeback, the Wing Commander today also led a formation of MiG-21 Bison fighter jets at Hindon. The 'Bison' variant is a highly upgraded version of the legacy MiG-21 from the Cold War era.

Two squadrons of the IAF - 51 Squadron and 9 Squadron - which played a role in the air strike in Balakot, were decorated with citations.

The air display at Hindon started with flag-bearing sky divers of the Akash Ganga team dropping out of an AN-32 aircraft in their colourful canopies. Next came the Chinook heavy-lift twin-rotor transport helicopter and the Apache attack helicopters, being showcased for the first time. Both these helicopters were acquired from the US and inducted into the IAF in the last few months.

The flypast included a spectacular manoeuvre by a Sukhoi-30MKI. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas too made several manoeuvres in the air as the crowd below cheered for it.

"In the recent years, the geo-political environment has been rapidly changing and uncertainties have created numerous challenges to national security. It is extremely important that we are always vigilant and alert to the existing sub-conventional threat. In the year gone by, the IAF has demonstrated its resolve and capability in punishing the perpetrators of terrorism and we need to be ever prepared to meet any contingency that challenges the defence of our country," the Air Chief Marshal said in his address to IAF personnel at Hindon.

Today is also a significant day for the IAF for another reason - Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will take delivery of India's newest multirole fighter jet Rafale in France.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/on-...ims-it-shot-down-2113472?pfrom=home-topscroll

The "proof":

The surprise? One of the two Sukhoi-30MKIs, whose call sign is "Avenger 1", that flew on the extreme right of the formation today was the same aircraft that Pakistan claimed it had shot down in the air battle in February 27, a day after Indian jets dropped Israeli-made bombs on a camp of the terror group Jaish-e-Mohammed in Balakot, deep inside Pakistan.

In more embarrassment for Pakistan, the IAF crew that piloted "Avenger-1" today was the same two-man crew that flew the Sukhoi-30MKI on the day the air battle happened.

 

[Lonewarrior]

The Indian Air Force on its 87th birthday today sprung a surprise on Pakistan in response to its claim of shooting down a Sukhoi-30MKI in February. In the clear skies above Hindon Air Force Station near Delhi, three nimble French-origin Mirage-2000s flanked by two larger Sukhoi-30MKI multirole fighter jets flew in what is known as the "Avenger" formation as the spectators below cheered for them.

The surprise? One of the two Sukhoi-30MKIs, whose call sign is "Avenger 1", that flew on the extreme right of the formation today was the same aircraft that Pakistan claimed it had shot down in the air battle in February 27, a day after Indian jets dropped Israeli-made bombs on a camp of the terror group Jaish-e-Mohammed in Balakot, deep inside Pakistan.

In more embarrassment for Pakistan, the IAF crew that piloted "Avenger-1" today was the same two-man crew that flew the Sukhoi-30MKI on the day the air battle happened.

"We acknowledge the contributions of all personnel of Commands, Stations and Units who silently and professionally contributed to the success of the air strikes on the terrorist camps at Balakot earlier this year," Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria said today at Hindon Air Force Station. Army chief General Bipin Rawat also attended the event.

The IAF has said Pakistan's "false claim" of shooting down a Sukhoi-30MKI was an attempt to cover up for the loss of its own aircraft, an American-made F-16, which Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman had shot down before the Russian-origin MiG-21 Bison that he piloted fell to enemy fire. Wing Commander Varthaman was awarded the Vir Chakra for shooting down the Pakistani F-16.

In a comeback, the Wing Commander today also led a formation of MiG-21 Bison fighter jets at Hindon. The 'Bison' variant is a highly upgraded version of the legacy MiG-21 from the Cold War era.

Two squadrons of the IAF - 51 Squadron and 9 Squadron - which played a role in the air strike in Balakot, were decorated with citations.

The air display at Hindon started with flag-bearing sky divers of the Akash Ganga team dropping out of an AN-32 aircraft in their colourful canopies. Next came the Chinook heavy-lift twin-rotor transport helicopter and the Apache attack helicopters, being showcased for the first time. Both these helicopters were acquired from the US and inducted into the IAF in the last few months.

The flypast included a spectacular manoeuvre by a Sukhoi-30MKI. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas too made several manoeuvres in the air as the crowd below cheered for it.

"In the recent years, the geo-political environment has been rapidly changing and uncertainties have created numerous challenges to national security. It is extremely important that we are always vigilant and alert to the existing sub-conventional threat. In the year gone by, the IAF has demonstrated its resolve and capability in punishing the perpetrators of terrorism and we need to be ever prepared to meet any contingency that challenges the defence of our country," the Air Chief Marshal said in his address to IAF personnel at Hindon.

Today is also a significant day for the IAF for another reason - Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will take delivery of India's newest multirole fighter jet Rafale in France.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/on-...ims-it-shot-down-2113472?pfrom=home-topscroll

thats the "proof" ? why dont they recount thre Su-30s or let russia do the counting.

 

[Pete Rose]

Flying & fighting in the Mirage 2000: Interview with Mirage 2000 pilot

A few months ago I shared an interview by HushKit for a JF17 pilot. They have a recent interview with a Mirage 2000 pilot in the IAF. For those who read the earlier interview, I leave you to figure out who likes to bluster and who is respectful. Needless to say we want our neighbors to believe theier bluster.

https://hushkit.net/2019/09/25/flying-fighting-in-the-mirage-2000-interview-with-mirage-2000-pilot/

Flying & fighting in the Mirage 2000: Interview with Mirage 2000 pilot

Few aircraft inspire confidence and love in their pilots like the Mirage 2000. We spoke to Group Captain MJA Vinod (formerly of the Indian Air Force) about the Mirage 2000 and found out it is a lot more potent than many observers believe and how it may even have some advantages over the much vaunted Su-30 Flanker.


Which three words best describe it?

“Agile, Aggressive and Awesome.”

What is the best thing about it?

“Ease of handling the machine, I don’t remember if there has ever been a single landing accident in a Mirage 2000, that is because of carefree handling qualities of Mirage 2000 and of course the quality of training in the unit.”

..and the worst thing?

“I am of a firm believer that there should be two engines in a fighter aeroplane, twin engine fighters have a huge advantage. I believe Dassault Aviation came up a twin-engine version of Mirage 2000 called the Mirage 4000. It wasn’t pursued because the Rafale programme by then had gathered steam and as a policy I guess Dassault Aviation shelved the project. Yes! I do wish there was one more engine. Snecma (now Safran) engines are very reliable that way. I do not recollect any incident where the engine just quit out of the blue.

How you rate the 2000 in the following categories?

Instantaneous turn “Best in the Class, I don’t think there is any fighter comes any close, this needs to be measured with roll and rate of onset of the turn (called tau). In a common language, it means when I spot a bogey how fast can I bank to the required degree, initiate a turn and point towards him. In this regard Mirage 2000 is the best.”

Sustained turn “This is a question of aerodynamics; any delta planform generates higher drag than non- delta planform. Therefore, sustained rate is a function of drag and thrust. Practically, sustained rate is rarely needed, worst case scenario is a bogey on your six in close combat; the Mirage 2000 has enough power, rate of roll and ‘tau’ to shake him off. Mirage 2000 has another unique system that mitigates this Drag and produces adequate lift to sustain the turn and that is slats, with slats at low speeds, in a close combat engagement you can’t get away from a Mirage 2000.”


High alpha – Nothing can beat a Delta platform in this regard, be it MiG 21 or Mirage 2000.

I’m a bit confused by this, is a MiG-29 or Su-30 with a tailed delta not superior?

“High Alpha needs to be understood in its context, High angle of attack does not mean high lift, it is means requisite lift is produced at higher angle of attack, Su-30 MiG-29 are not tailed delta, MiG-21 is a tailed delta. Originally the MiG-21 was not designed as a delta planform, but designers filled the extra space and found that long root to mid chord gave advantage in producing lift and could carry additional fuel and house part of undercarriage etc. So in this case, the delta planform was born more by accident. French adopted it without tail and made Mirage series of fighters. Tailless deltas (without fly-by -wire) like the Mirage III and Mirage V that Pakistan has, suffers from extra drag in the low-speed regime, which an inherently unstable platform like the Mirage 2000 does not suffer from, it is aerodynamics. For a layman, if he watches a Mirage V at low speed and Mirage 2000 at low speed he will see the elevons (the movable part of the trailing edge of a delta wing) in a Mirage 5 is not neutral (not raised or lowered) while in a Mirage 2000 elevons are very close to neutral.”

Acceleration – “You’ve got to pay attention to control the speed in M2K, she is very quick to accelerate.”

Climb rate “At close to 300 metres per second she climbs to the altitude of business in no time.”

What was your most memorable mission?

“It is not just one moment of ‘awe’. Flying the M2K was memorable, on every mission. If I was to place my finger on one such mission, I would choose carrying out a laser-guided bomb attack inside a valley where you are doing a lot of head down work with peripheral awareness of the mountains around you. It is this kind of training that brought us on top during Kargil. The ease with which Mirage 2000 took out Tiger Hill with just one LGB was awesome to say the least.

Low level night flying and night missions are particularly challenging and adrenaline pumping. One such mission over desert was one of the most demanding mission I ever flew, it was winter and when I landed, I was drenched in sweat.”





Which aircraft have you flown DACT against and which was the most challenging?
“I have flown DACT piloting a MiG-21 and Mirage 2000 with almost all aircraft of IAF’s inventory. Close combat is more of a skill-based deal, yes aircraft capability matters a lot, aided by systems on board, like Helmet Mounted Sights and HUD, adds to the ease of getting a kill. I would still grade skill over capability of the aeroplane. In that regard, the DACT that I have flown against the MiG-21 Type-75 have been most memorable. A MiG-21 flown by experienced pilot can take you by surprise.”

And why was this?
“The MiG-21 can be flown to much higher Alpha if need be, and pull higher ‘G’ if it is like a life or death situation, neither Viper nor M2K can do that. In that regard, in the able hands of someone like Wg Cdr Abhinandan’s, the MiG-21 can do great.”

How good were the sensors? “Best as of now, I am waiting to see what its big brother Rafale is going to bring to the table. Right now, with the kind of radar and other sensors Mirage 2000 I/TI has, I would rate it the best in the sub-continent. When Mirage 2000 is in the air, the Pakistani military run… and that is a fact.”

How easy is to fly? What is the hardest thing about flying it?

“Very easy to fly, basic flying is a piece of cake. Hard part is, unlike Su-30 where you have a weapon system operator, here you are on your own doing as complex missions as a Su-30. That’s why I said, in a Mirage 2000 ally it is always heads down study, practice, prepare, simulator runs etc. Fun part is flying the mission.”


Is the cockpit tiny?

“Ha ha! That is a wrong question to a MiG 21 guy, compared to a MiG 21 which is like a one room condo, Mirage 2000 is like a palace on wheels. No! the cockpit is adequately spacious.”


How would you rate the cockpit?

“One a scale of 1-10? 10.”


Have you fired live weapons- if so, what was it like?

“Yes! Fast, you fire and in a fraction of a second it’s gone, until you see the splash on the target, until then you wonder ‘where did it go?'”

How confident would you feel going against a modern F-16 or MiG-29?


“It is Man-Machine-Weapon combo. There is no other in like the Mirage 2000 today in this regard. Be it BVR or close combat. Viper is underpowered machine when it’s loaded out for a mission. MiG-29 is brute power. Mirage 2000 enjoys good power in highest load-out and electronic and system suites to complement the mission.”

What is the greatest myth about the 2000?

“Since it visually looks like Mirage III and Mirage V it may manoeuvre like it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Mirage 2000 is a fly-by-wire machine, which is inherently unstable, it’s safety margin is not the aerodynamics design factor, it is the software and the fly by wire managed deal. All these leads to less drag and higher manoeuvrability.”

You may also be interested in this interview with a IAF Su-30 pilot

How combat effective is the M2000?

“Best in the class and best in the sub-continent.”

How reliable and easy to maintain is it?

“Frenchmen design the aeroplanes well, be it Mirage class, or Airbus. It is an engineer’s delight. Extremely easy to change components, parts, even an engine.”

Tell me something I don’t know about the Mirage?

“It’s not common knowledge that the small strake on the air intake energises the fin at high alpha thereby making it more directionally stable. This allowed for a smaller fin, saving weight and drag. That small little fixed surface on the air intake does all of this.”


What tips would you give new pilots coming onto the M2000?

“Keep up the tradition of Mirage 2000 ally, whichever aeroplane you come from, heads down study hard, know the system, train in the simulator, go out there in the blue yonder and enjoy seeing your hard work paying off.


I’ve heard the M2000 has a bad rate of sustained turn, is this an issue in air-to-air combat?

“Like I explained earlier, no, The practicality of a sustained turn in a combat situation is minuscule, fighter aeroplanes are not designed for air shows, it is designed to perform a job and that job is warfighting. In that regard Mirage 2000 does its job better than any other aeroplane.”

What is the hardest manoeuvre to pull off in a M2000?

“Low level aerobatics, it needs a lot of practice, flying currency, concentration and flawless execution.”

As a personal opinion: What should the IAF procure and what should it get rid of?

“Like the old leaves fall off and the new leaves grow, IAF too has planned its future well. It is well on its way to modernise. I cannot think of anything that IAF is not doing right this time, especially under Modi Govt. In all spheres IAF is well ahead of the curve and expectation. I have no doubt on this matter.”


It appears that the IAF tasks the 2000 with a2g rather than a2a, why is this?

“That perception is wrong, armed with MICA, the Mirage 2000 is the most formidable fighter in the sky in air-air missions. That’s why the enemy gives Mirage a wide berth. Armed with Spice and other smart weapons, Mirage is equally formidable in air-ground work. For the general public it is the air-ground work that comes to mind, not the for the fact that many times Vipers tucked in their tails and ran away from a Mirage 2000. Therefore it may appear that way, but it is not a fact. It is a superior machine all round.”


In air combat with a MiG-29, who would have the advantage and why?

“Air combat has gone through a paradigm shift in my lifetime. I started with close combat missiles, then came A4M and later BVR. All of them call for different kind of skill, and aircraft capability. In that regard I would rate Mirage 2000 much higher than any aeroplane currently.”

By this you mean it’s the best air combat platform in the IAF?

“Air Combat has gone through a paradigm shift in my lifetime. I started with close combat missiles, then came A4M and later BVR. All of them call for different kind of skill, and aircraft capability. In that regard I would rate Mirage 2000 much higher than any aeroplane currently.”



Does this mean you consider it superior to the Su-30 for the BVR mission, if so — why?

“It would not be right to say, a particular aircraft is superior to the other in all aspects. Every aircraft, especially fighter aircraft are optimised for a certain role and manoeuvrability. Depending on how the designer envisaged it. Russians pay a lot of heed to manoeuvrability, manoeuvres that a Su 30 or a MiG-29 can do, like the Pugachevs cobra or Kulbits are signature manoeuvres that aircraft designed by the West cannot do. Why? Because they didn’t envisage that the aeroplane would need to do such a manoeuvre during air combat. As regards BVR missions, two things are very important, one is look (AKA ‘radar range’), next is the weapon that can hit far (AKA ‘weapon reach’). On paper and in real IAF scores over Pakistan in both. With inclusion of Astra, IAF has acquires indigenous capability too, which has pushed this divide between ‘haves and have nots’ even further.”

How does it compare with the Su-30?

“Su-30 has its advantage in employment in certain areas and Mirage 2000 in certain areas. Together they make a very potent force. Being part of the same side, comparison of both is meaningless. But I can say this, head to head, Su-30 or Mirage 2000 are greatly superior to the Viper, and the reason is very simple, both are later designs than the Viper. They are not underpowered like the Viper and have better weapon range and radar range.”

What were the biggest challenges in integrating the M2000 did anything need to be changed to make the most of the aircraft?

“In that regard I would once again like to give that credit to Indo-France co-operation. The way the aeroplane was inducted into the IAF is a test bookcase of a project management. If aircraft induction was ‘T’, T minus four years, brick-by-brick things were built, training was carried out and capabilities were enhanced. When Mirage 2000 flew into India, it was like it came back to its base in France. Kudos to those magnificent flying men at that time who made this happen. The story continued during its life-cycle and during upgrade. France has been a great friend for India. Our co-operation, especially for the Air Force, it dates to the days of Dassault Ouragan i.e. June 1953.”


How does its situational awareness compare with the Su-30 – any why?

“I haven’t flown the Su-30, however what I can say is Su-30 in the air is a nightmare for many because of its tremendous capability… because of its radar range, weapon range and load-out.”

How would you fight a MiG-29 in WVR DACT? In what altitude/speed set-ups does the M2000 have the advantage – how would the M2000 like to fight?

“The MiG-29, like any Russian fighter, manoeuvres extremely well. Like I said before, WVR depends more on pilot’s skill, his situational awareness and his/her ‘Sang Froid’ in a fight. IAF pilots score over anybody in this regard, simply because of our training. The art of WVR is something that is very close to any IAF’s pilots heart. Yes! Again same-side fight is not envisaged. Against a Viper or a JF-17? Pakistani pilots need to think twice before engaging.”

How confident would a M2000 pilot feel going 1 v 1 against the following:

PAF JF-17

“Can beat this extremely underpowered fighter in any fight. This is not a rhetoric, I have commented on it earlier. The JF-17 project should have been shelved because it does not tick any box of a modern-day fighter.”

PAF F-16

“The F-16 was designed in the 70s to counter MiGs. Two to four within visual range missiles and one external fuel tank and that’s it. Over time this single-engine fighter has been made to do more than its design. It is a compromise, in these condition it is, again unfair to expect a Viper to win against a Mirage 2000.”

PAF Mirage

The PAF Mirage is a non fly-by-wire tailless delta. Which suffers heavily in the aerodynamic sense. You ask any aerodynamicist he will tell you the same. It has neither the (first) look nor the weapon range, and they don’t train for it either. It is more of a strike aircraft, treated, trained and used as such by Pakistan.”

PAF F7


“Same answer as above. Both are in their last leg of life. F7 should have been retired long ago. Pakistan is not able to retire them, because they don’t have replacement yet. JF-17 was to replace them, it couldn’t, as it ran into rough weather itself: it was plagued by a plethora of issues, the engines being the major concern for Pakistan.”

When did Indian procure the Mirage 2000 and where were you trained?

“It was June of 1985 My Sqn i.e. 7 Sqn Battle Axes were formed with the latest Digital Deltas. I joined the Sqn in 97 and trained in India.”


Which aircraft have you flown and with which units?

“I have flown Kiran Mk I and Mk-II in the academy as a cadet and later as an instructor. MiG-21 with Oorials as a Flight Commander with Warriors, and with the Eighth Pursoots as an Instructor. Mirage 2000 with the Battle Axes and with all the other Mirage 2000 units when I was the Senior Flight Safety Officer. I have also flown in Hunter, Jaguar, Pilatus, HPT-32. As a Flying Instructor I have instructed in HPT-32, Kiran & MiG-21.”

What were your first impressions of the Mirage 2000?

“I came from the MiG-21 type-75, those days only pilots from T-75 were being inducted onto the M2000 because at the end of one’s MOFT (MiG Operational Flying Training) only the top two or three graduating after 1+ year of training went to a T-75 squadron. T-75 was at that time the top-of-the-line fighter, second to only the Mirage 2000 and the MiG-29. Before induction of the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, T-75 ruled the roost. That and since MiG-21 T-75 pilots had more combat flying experience they were the only pilots finding their way to the ASFs. The MiG-21 was an aircraft with conventional control, however, in the Mirage the pilot is inside the control loop. A pilot’s demand is a request in a FBW (Fly-by-Wire) control loop. Within the safety limit and the aircraft’s capability at that time based on the height, speed, configuration etc the aircraft adhered to your ‘request’. This was a big change. It took some time to adjust to this. Additionally, the load-out of Mirage 2000 was a quantum jump from MiG 21, therefore the amount of manuals that you need to study and understand was also big. In the Mirage allay (the place where Mirage crews stay in a station) in the evening, Fighter Pilots are found studying more than having fun. Oh yes, these changes were huge compared to the rest of the Air Force!”

What should I have asked you?

“You have tailored it well.”

 

[cric_man]

A few months ago I shared an interview by HushKit for a JF17 pilot. They have a recent interview with a Mirage 2000 pilot in the IAF. For those who read the earlier interview, I leave you to figure out who likes to bluster and who is respectful. Needless to say we want our neighbors to believe theier bluster.

https://hushkit.net/2019/09/25/flying-fighting-in-the-mirage-2000-interview-with-mirage-2000-pilot/

Flying & fighting in the Mirage 2000: Interview with Mirage 2000 pilot

Few aircraft inspire confidence and love in their pilots like the Mirage 2000. We spoke to Group Captain MJA Vinod (formerly of the Indian Air Force) about the Mirage 2000 and found out it is a lot more potent than many observers believe and how it may even have some advantages over the much vaunted Su-30 Flanker.


Which three words best describe it?

“Agile, Aggressive and Awesome.”

What is the best thing about it?

“Ease of handling the machine, I don’t remember if there has ever been a single landing accident in a Mirage 2000, that is because of carefree handling qualities of Mirage 2000 and of course the quality of training in the unit.”

..and the worst thing?

“I am of a firm believer that there should be two engines in a fighter aeroplane, twin engine fighters have a huge advantage. I believe Dassault Aviation came up a twin-engine version of Mirage 2000 called the Mirage 4000. It wasn’t pursued because the Rafale programme by then had gathered steam and as a policy I guess Dassault Aviation shelved the project. Yes! I do wish there was one more engine. Snecma (now Safran) engines are very reliable that way. I do not recollect any incident where the engine just quit out of the blue.

How you rate the 2000 in the following categories?

Instantaneous turn “Best in the Class, I don’t think there is any fighter comes any close, this needs to be measured with roll and rate of onset of the turn (called tau). In a common language, it means when I spot a bogey how fast can I bank to the required degree, initiate a turn and point towards him. In this regard Mirage 2000 is the best.”

Sustained turn “This is a question of aerodynamics; any delta planform generates higher drag than non- delta planform. Therefore, sustained rate is a function of drag and thrust. Practically, sustained rate is rarely needed, worst case scenario is a bogey on your six in close combat; the Mirage 2000 has enough power, rate of roll and ‘tau’ to shake him off. Mirage 2000 has another unique system that mitigates this Drag and produces adequate lift to sustain the turn and that is slats, with slats at low speeds, in a close combat engagement you can’t get away from a Mirage 2000.”


High alpha – Nothing can beat a Delta platform in this regard, be it MiG 21 or Mirage 2000.

I’m a bit confused by this, is a MiG-29 or Su-30 with a tailed delta not superior?

“High Alpha needs to be understood in its context, High angle of attack does not mean high lift, it is means requisite lift is produced at higher angle of attack, Su-30 MiG-29 are not tailed delta, MiG-21 is a tailed delta. Originally the MiG-21 was not designed as a delta planform, but designers filled the extra space and found that long root to mid chord gave advantage in producing lift and could carry additional fuel and house part of undercarriage etc. So in this case, the delta planform was born more by accident. French adopted it without tail and made Mirage series of fighters. Tailless deltas (without fly-by -wire) like the Mirage III and Mirage V that Pakistan has, suffers from extra drag in the low-speed regime, which an inherently unstable platform like the Mirage 2000 does not suffer from, it is aerodynamics. For a layman, if he watches a Mirage V at low speed and Mirage 2000 at low speed he will see the elevons (the movable part of the trailing edge of a delta wing) in a Mirage 5 is not neutral (not raised or lowered) while in a Mirage 2000 elevons are very close to neutral.”

Acceleration – “You’ve got to pay attention to control the speed in M2K, she is very quick to accelerate.”

Climb rate “At close to 300 metres per second she climbs to the altitude of business in no time.”

What was your most memorable mission?

“It is not just one moment of ‘awe’. Flying the M2K was memorable, on every mission. If I was to place my finger on one such mission, I would choose carrying out a laser-guided bomb attack inside a valley where you are doing a lot of head down work with peripheral awareness of the mountains around you. It is this kind of training that brought us on top during Kargil. The ease with which Mirage 2000 took out Tiger Hill with just one LGB was awesome to say the least.

Low level night flying and night missions are particularly challenging and adrenaline pumping. One such mission over desert was one of the most demanding mission I ever flew, it was winter and when I landed, I was drenched in sweat.”





Which aircraft have you flown DACT against and which was the most challenging?
“I have flown DACT piloting a MiG-21 and Mirage 2000 with almost all aircraft of IAF’s inventory. Close combat is more of a skill-based deal, yes aircraft capability matters a lot, aided by systems on board, like Helmet Mounted Sights and HUD, adds to the ease of getting a kill. I would still grade skill over capability of the aeroplane. In that regard, the DACT that I have flown against the MiG-21 Type-75 have been most memorable. A MiG-21 flown by experienced pilot can take you by surprise.”

And why was this?
“The MiG-21 can be flown to much higher Alpha if need be, and pull higher ‘G’ if it is like a life or death situation, neither Viper nor M2K can do that. In that regard, in the able hands of someone like Wg Cdr Abhinandan’s, the MiG-21 can do great.”

How good were the sensors? “Best as of now, I am waiting to see what its big brother Rafale is going to bring to the table. Right now, with the kind of radar and other sensors Mirage 2000 I/TI has, I would rate it the best in the sub-continent. When Mirage 2000 is in the air, the Pakistani military run… and that is a fact.”

How easy is to fly? What is the hardest thing about flying it?

“Very easy to fly, basic flying is a piece of cake. Hard part is, unlike Su-30 where you have a weapon system operator, here you are on your own doing as complex missions as a Su-30. That’s why I said, in a Mirage 2000 ally it is always heads down study, practice, prepare, simulator runs etc. Fun part is flying the mission.”


Is the cockpit tiny?

“Ha ha! That is a wrong question to a MiG 21 guy, compared to a MiG 21 which is like a one room condo, Mirage 2000 is like a palace on wheels. No! the cockpit is adequately spacious.”


How would you rate the cockpit?

“One a scale of 1-10? 10.”


Have you fired live weapons- if so, what was it like?

“Yes! Fast, you fire and in a fraction of a second it’s gone, until you see the splash on the target, until then you wonder ‘where did it go?'”

How confident would you feel going against a modern F-16 or MiG-29?


“It is Man-Machine-Weapon combo. There is no other in like the Mirage 2000 today in this regard. Be it BVR or close combat. Viper is underpowered machine when it’s loaded out for a mission. MiG-29 is brute power. Mirage 2000 enjoys good power in highest load-out and electronic and system suites to complement the mission.”

What is the greatest myth about the 2000?

“Since it visually looks like Mirage III and Mirage V it may manoeuvre like it. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The Mirage 2000 is a fly-by-wire machine, which is inherently unstable, it’s safety margin is not the aerodynamics design factor, it is the software and the fly by wire managed deal. All these leads to less drag and higher manoeuvrability.”

You may also be interested in this interview with a IAF Su-30 pilot

How combat effective is the M2000?

“Best in the class and best in the sub-continent.”

How reliable and easy to maintain is it?

“Frenchmen design the aeroplanes well, be it Mirage class, or Airbus. It is an engineer’s delight. Extremely easy to change components, parts, even an engine.”

Tell me something I don’t know about the Mirage?

“It’s not common knowledge that the small strake on the air intake energises the fin at high alpha thereby making it more directionally stable. This allowed for a smaller fin, saving weight and drag. That small little fixed surface on the air intake does all of this.”


What tips would you give new pilots coming onto the M2000?

“Keep up the tradition of Mirage 2000 ally, whichever aeroplane you come from, heads down study hard, know the system, train in the simulator, go out there in the blue yonder and enjoy seeing your hard work paying off.


I’ve heard the M2000 has a bad rate of sustained turn, is this an issue in air-to-air combat?

“Like I explained earlier, no, The practicality of a sustained turn in a combat situation is minuscule, fighter aeroplanes are not designed for air shows, it is designed to perform a job and that job is warfighting. In that regard Mirage 2000 does its job better than any other aeroplane.”

What is the hardest manoeuvre to pull off in a M2000?

“Low level aerobatics, it needs a lot of practice, flying currency, concentration and flawless execution.”

As a personal opinion: What should the IAF procure and what should it get rid of?

“Like the old leaves fall off and the new leaves grow, IAF too has planned its future well. It is well on its way to modernise. I cannot think of anything that IAF is not doing right this time, especially under Modi Govt. In all spheres IAF is well ahead of the curve and expectation. I have no doubt on this matter.”


It appears that the IAF tasks the 2000 with a2g rather than a2a, why is this?

“That perception is wrong, armed with MICA, the Mirage 2000 is the most formidable fighter in the sky in air-air missions. That’s why the enemy gives Mirage a wide berth. Armed with Spice and other smart weapons, Mirage is equally formidable in air-ground work. For the general public it is the air-ground work that comes to mind, not the for the fact that many times Vipers tucked in their tails and ran away from a Mirage 2000. Therefore it may appear that way, but it is not a fact. It is a superior machine all round.”


In air combat with a MiG-29, who would have the advantage and why?

“Air combat has gone through a paradigm shift in my lifetime. I started with close combat missiles, then came A4M and later BVR. All of them call for different kind of skill, and aircraft capability. In that regard I would rate Mirage 2000 much higher than any aeroplane currently.”

By this you mean it’s the best air combat platform in the IAF?

“Air Combat has gone through a paradigm shift in my lifetime. I started with close combat missiles, then came A4M and later BVR. All of them call for different kind of skill, and aircraft capability. In that regard I would rate Mirage 2000 much higher than any aeroplane currently.”



Does this mean you consider it superior to the Su-30 for the BVR mission, if so — why?

“It would not be right to say, a particular aircraft is superior to the other in all aspects. Every aircraft, especially fighter aircraft are optimised for a certain role and manoeuvrability. Depending on how the designer envisaged it. Russians pay a lot of heed to manoeuvrability, manoeuvres that a Su 30 or a MiG-29 can do, like the Pugachevs cobra or Kulbits are signature manoeuvres that aircraft designed by the West cannot do. Why? Because they didn’t envisage that the aeroplane would need to do such a manoeuvre during air combat. As regards BVR missions, two things are very important, one is look (AKA ‘radar range’), next is the weapon that can hit far (AKA ‘weapon reach’). On paper and in real IAF scores over Pakistan in both. With inclusion of Astra, IAF has acquires indigenous capability too, which has pushed this divide between ‘haves and have nots’ even further.”

How does it compare with the Su-30?

“Su-30 has its advantage in employment in certain areas and Mirage 2000 in certain areas. Together they make a very potent force. Being part of the same side, comparison of both is meaningless. But I can say this, head to head, Su-30 or Mirage 2000 are greatly superior to the Viper, and the reason is very simple, both are later designs than the Viper. They are not underpowered like the Viper and have better weapon range and radar range.”

What were the biggest challenges in integrating the M2000 did anything need to be changed to make the most of the aircraft?

“In that regard I would once again like to give that credit to Indo-France co-operation. The way the aeroplane was inducted into the IAF is a test bookcase of a project management. If aircraft induction was ‘T’, T minus four years, brick-by-brick things were built, training was carried out and capabilities were enhanced. When Mirage 2000 flew into India, it was like it came back to its base in France. Kudos to those magnificent flying men at that time who made this happen. The story continued during its life-cycle and during upgrade. France has been a great friend for India. Our co-operation, especially for the Air Force, it dates to the days of Dassault Ouragan i.e. June 1953.”


How does its situational awareness compare with the Su-30 – any why?

“I haven’t flown the Su-30, however what I can say is Su-30 in the air is a nightmare for many because of its tremendous capability… because of its radar range, weapon range and load-out.”

How would you fight a MiG-29 in WVR DACT? In what altitude/speed set-ups does the M2000 have the advantage – how would the M2000 like to fight?

“The MiG-29, like any Russian fighter, manoeuvres extremely well. Like I said before, WVR depends more on pilot’s skill, his situational awareness and his/her ‘Sang Froid’ in a fight. IAF pilots score over anybody in this regard, simply because of our training. The art of WVR is something that is very close to any IAF’s pilots heart. Yes! Again same-side fight is not envisaged. Against a Viper or a JF-17? Pakistani pilots need to think twice before engaging.”

How confident would a M2000 pilot feel going 1 v 1 against the following:

PAF JF-17

“Can beat this extremely underpowered fighter in any fight. This is not a rhetoric, I have commented on it earlier. The JF-17 project should have been shelved because it does not tick any box of a modern-day fighter.”

PAF F-16

“The F-16 was designed in the 70s to counter MiGs. Two to four within visual range missiles and one external fuel tank and that’s it. Over time this single-engine fighter has been made to do more than its design. It is a compromise, in these condition it is, again unfair to expect a Viper to win against a Mirage 2000.”

PAF Mirage

The PAF Mirage is a non fly-by-wire tailless delta. Which suffers heavily in the aerodynamic sense. You ask any aerodynamicist he will tell you the same. It has neither the (first) look nor the weapon range, and they don’t train for it either. It is more of a strike aircraft, treated, trained and used as such by Pakistan.”

PAF F7


“Same answer as above. Both are in their last leg of life. F7 should have been retired long ago. Pakistan is not able to retire them, because they don’t have replacement yet. JF-17 was to replace them, it couldn’t, as it ran into rough weather itself: it was plagued by a plethora of issues, the engines being the major concern for Pakistan.”

When did Indian procure the Mirage 2000 and where were you trained?

“It was June of 1985 My Sqn i.e. 7 Sqn Battle Axes were formed with the latest Digital Deltas. I joined the Sqn in 97 and trained in India.”


Which aircraft have you flown and with which units?

“I have flown Kiran Mk I and Mk-II in the academy as a cadet and later as an instructor. MiG-21 with Oorials as a Flight Commander with Warriors, and with the Eighth Pursoots as an Instructor. Mirage 2000 with the Battle Axes and with all the other Mirage 2000 units when I was the Senior Flight Safety Officer. I have also flown in Hunter, Jaguar, Pilatus, HPT-32. As a Flying Instructor I have instructed in HPT-32, Kiran & MiG-21.”

What were your first impressions of the Mirage 2000?

“I came from the MiG-21 type-75, those days only pilots from T-75 were being inducted onto the M2000 because at the end of one’s MOFT (MiG Operational Flying Training) only the top two or three graduating after 1+ year of training went to a T-75 squadron. T-75 was at that time the top-of-the-line fighter, second to only the Mirage 2000 and the MiG-29. Before induction of the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, T-75 ruled the roost. That and since MiG-21 T-75 pilots had more combat flying experience they were the only pilots finding their way to the ASFs. The MiG-21 was an aircraft with conventional control, however, in the Mirage the pilot is inside the control loop. A pilot’s demand is a request in a FBW (Fly-by-Wire) control loop. Within the safety limit and the aircraft’s capability at that time based on the height, speed, configuration etc the aircraft adhered to your ‘request’. This was a big change. It took some time to adjust to this. Additionally, the load-out of Mirage 2000 was a quantum jump from MiG 21, therefore the amount of manuals that you need to study and understand was also big. In the Mirage allay (the place where Mirage crews stay in a station) in the evening, Fighter Pilots are found studying more than having fun. Oh yes, these changes were huge compared to the rest of the Air Force!”

What should I have asked you?

“You have tailored it well.”

Lol....
On that fateful day, there were 2 M2000s sent to intercept the strike package. Both mysteriously developed radar malfunction at the same time.
The 70s vintage vipers took care of the so called raptor of the east, the "under powered, should not have left the drawing board" Thunders and 50s vintage Mirages penetrated their airspace and executed precision strikes. I feel really sorry if this is truly a Group Captain in the IAF.

This is the closest to actual account that can be released to public.
https://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2019/06/pulwama-from-bluster-to-whimper.html

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">MIG crash in Goa. <br>Pilot ejected safely. <a href="https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@IAF_MCC</a> <a href="https://t.co/MBAv6pAjsH">pic.twitter.com/MBAv6pAjsH</a></p>— Shreya Dhoundial (@shreyadhoundial) <a href="https://twitter.com/shreyadhoundial/status/1195597863511683072?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Slim]

classic IAF

 

[cric_man]

Actually Indian Navy Mig-29k.
Navy didn't want to feel left out....

 

[Lonewarrior]

[Pictures] Declassified Documents by Chinese govt show PAF knew 35 yrs ago about Mig-21 Capability

Pakistan had assessed and evaluated Mig 21 the then most advance fighter jet in Indian arsenal in a middle eastern country and had a working strategy to take out Indian Air force 35 years ago. This shows why abhinandan was destined to lose the dog fight to PAF.

in 2020.

PAF Airchief Visits Rafale & M2k Units in Qatar .....