shaz619
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Kambli shockingly only played 17 Tests for his country ! Anyone know why ? [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION]
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The INVINCIBLE Dale Steyn - Undisputed fast-bowling great?
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Kambli shockingly only played 17 Tests for his country ! Anyone know why ? [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION]
ShadabFakhar
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Only a year older than Sachin. He scored 28 in his last test, 26 more than Sachin. GOAT.
Hasan123
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Only on PP will find you people rating Steyn above Akram. Not many were better than Imran at his peak.
Varun
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Steady decline through his career. Was more the party type, while Saching pegged in for the long term.
Hitman
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Except that Steyn has also taken more wickets than Akram that to at a far, far, far superior strike rate. That too in 25 fewer innings. While Kambli played just 17 Tests. Nice try though!
Akram has massively underperformed in the Tests, his legacy is built more on being highest wicket taker in the Odis.
Steyn is a much more superior bowler considering he bowled mostly in the era of flat tracks, Bigger bats, advantage to batsmen and more importantly the gulf of class between him and his peers.
Steyn is a much more superior bowler considering he bowled mostly in the era of flat tracks, Bigger bats, advantage to batsmen and more importantly the gulf of class between him and his peers.
Saffer_XIII
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Wait so it's a bad thing that he got a 5fer in the 4th innings.
ShadabFakhar
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Nice try for what? Steyn is better statistically. End of. Steven Smith has played more matches than Kambli, his average is 60+, better than Tendulkar....statistically
ShadabFakhar
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No, but the ball is known to stay low and reverse. Pakistani wickets are notorious for doing silly things on the fifth day. Still a good performance but not as great had it been Inzi, Moyo and YK been playing.
Hitman
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Nice try for trying to equate Steyn's superiority in every department (average, strike rate, wickets) over Akram with Kambli's better average than Sachin.
Steven Smith has played 54 Tests, a little more than 1/4th of the Tests Sachin has played.
ShadabFakhar
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Steve Smith has a better average. Simple statistic. Now you're bringing in factors of longevity. We could go to Kallis, even.
The point is that statistically there are better bowlers than Steyn. All depends on which stat you choose. Ambrose has a better average than Steyn. But no one in their right mind would choose Ambrose over Akram.
Stats are only part of the story for a great bowler.
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The_Odd_One
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Ambrose was a superior test bowler than Akram.
ShadabFakhar
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Not comfortably, probably.
Joseph Gomes
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Steyn is comfortably better than Akram in every parameter
Leo23
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every parameter? wasim is 100x the bowler steyn was in odis. he won pak a wc final while steyn got destroyed by a nobody like elliot.
Agree in Odis, Steyn is a nothing bowler in shorter format compared to Wasim.
However, we are talking about Tests where Steyn is comfortably ahead.
Joseph Gomes
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I am talking about test. Steyn's ODI career isn't even as good as Zaheer Khan's so it's useless comparing him to any ODI atg
Leo23
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steyn does not have a wonderful record against 2 of the 3 best batting sides of his era (aus and eng).
he also has the luxury of playing for sa which has been a top class batting side throughout his career which means that he did not have to bowl to some of the best batsmen of his time and often had to bowl to batsmen who had to deal with huge scoreboard pressure.
he has also had a top class fielding unit to back him up and the luxury of bowling regularly in excellent conditions like sa. he is also rested frequently from odis and t20s which allowed him to get rest frequently
he is a great bowler and best of his era but people give him too much credit. he is not a class above wasim etc and other greats of the past. wasim had a weak batting lineup compared to other teams and did not have great fielders. he also had to bowl on some extremely flat pitches and he rarely got rest from any series or matches.
steyn's biggest achievement is his excellent record in india against a very tough line up. but to say that he is in the top 5 bowlers of all time and comfortably beats wasim is not true at all.
Saffer_XIII
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I love how you list a variety of excuses for denigrating Steyn but at no point have you given a credible argument for how Akram is a better test bowler.
It's a simple argument...Steyn is considered better due to
-easier batting environment/flatter pitches
-better numbers
-only ATG pacer of this era
Wasim is considered better due to
-more skilled
-worse fielders
-weaker team with odds against him due to weak batting line up
Weighing up the positives and negatives, an understandable case can be made for either of them however personally I'd choose Wasim as a better bowler.
shaz619
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One of the biggest points which I personally overlooked which [MENTION=142755]A.A.Z[/MENTION] made was that although things are a lot more friendly with regards to batsman these days, a lot of them are white ball specialists with poor defensive technique's which often fall victim to lateral movement; they also seem to lack the mental strength to bat for long periods as well or overcome the challenge of pressure situations and challenging wickets. Be it spin, seam or swing ; there is a very tiny number of batsman who do not falter when the going gets tough.
Leo23
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please refute these points instead of calling them "excuses".
Very true. It's why Mitchell Starc (altho an ATG level ODI pacer) was running havoc in that 2015 WC. Whenever there was a little bit of juice for bowlers, the line ups would fall like a pack of cads.
Saffer_XIII
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If that's your argument for Wasim over Steyn in tests then there's no hope for you. I mean better numbers vs worse fielders. So he's automatically better because half the team couldn't catch a cold.
That argument was a long story short, of course there are many other factors. Don't understand why you're getting so menstrual as though I said that Wasim Akram is on a different planet to Steyn or something...
The reasons as to why Steyns numbers are better are simple...Pakistan was an awful fielding unit in the 90s and they had a very volatile line up, one which couldn't provide big targets to defend as often as the arguably ATG line up that SA had during Steyns star run. It's a one point difference, not a 10 point...
Once the number aspect is put to side, we look at overall skill in which Wasim beats Steyn. Wasim is also a better ODI bowler, has better peer rating and has that left arm novelty factor too which altho a weak argument, still gives him a teeny advantage. Like I said before a case can be made for both, no need to act like there's ants in your pants just because I didn't pick Steyn.
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Dale Steyn is enjoying being able to bowl long spells at good speeds, and it showed in the 4/48 he took against Sri Lanka in their first innings of the first Test in Durban.
Steyn led South Africa's pace attack on Thursday, 14 February, as they bundled out Sri Lanka for 191, securing a lead of 44 on the second day of the Test. That included a special spell after lunch, where he bowled 10 overs on the trot, maintaining speeds in the mid-140kph range.
Bowling such long spells is not something the 35-year-old has done often in his long career, given South Africa's profusion of pace options. Steyn admitted, in rather colourful language, that he was tired at the end of the day. But feeling in the zone, he badgered his captain to keep him on.
"Today was a period where I felt there was a wicket there all the time. I just felt like it was there for me, so I just kept going," he told reporters after the day's play. "When they were eight down, I didn't want Vern (Vernon Philander) to come on and bowl a loosener and go for four, or Kesh (Keshav Maharaj) to bowl a loosener and go for six.
"I felt, 'I'm not going for any runs, I'm going to carry on bowling here until the captain says he's had enough.' He had had enough after I had my sixth [over], but I kept begging, and got what I wanted."
It's nice to finish a three-Test series against Pakistan and not have someone write: 'He's an injury away from retiring.' It's nice to contribute again. It feels like I've started over.
Dale Steyn
Steyn might have had his 27th five-wicket haul if Dean Elgar had held on to a catch in his 17th over of the day. But the bowler wasn't complaining. "Test cricket is hard. Nothing should come easy," he said. "Fifers shouldn't come easy, and no catch is easy, either.
"After not playing for two years [through injury], I feel like it's a blessing to just be playing again. I've almost had to start over. I'm not on 430-odd wickets, I'm on 20 since breaking Polly's (Shaun Pollock's) record. It's nice to finish a three-Test series against Pakistan and not have someone write: 'He's an injury away from retiring.' It's nice to contribute again. It feels like I've started over."
"When I'm bowling 10-over spells, it shows I'm enjoying what I do" – Dale Steyn
Having now gone past Kapil Dev on the all-time wicket-takers' list, Steyn is keen to keep going. He is enjoying what he's doing and doesn't want to let coach Ottis Gibson, who welcomed him "with open arms" after his many injury lay-offs, down.
"If you had asked me two years ago where the full stop would be, I would have been able to give you an answer. But when you take two years out of it, you realise that you don't know what you've got until it's gone," he said.
"When I'm bowling 10-over spells, it shows I'm enjoying what I do. I could take the easy option, take 4/30 and go and stand at fine leg and say someone else do it. But it's fun. It's fun taking wickets. It's fun hitting guys on the head. As long as nothing serious happens.
"The moment I can't bowl 140-145 kph, and on a good day touch 150kph, like in Australia on fast wickets, then you've got to ask yourself the question: How effective am I? I have some skill – I've got to be honest, I don't have all the skill in the world – [but] I can bowl the ball at the right place consistently for a long period for high speed, and with a little bit of skill, I can shape it away, and I can bring it back in.
"You've got to be smart about when to bowl a bouncer, when to bowl a yorker, and when to bowl a slower ball, and that's what experience is. After 15 years, I've got some of that."
https://www.icc-cricket.com/news/1055589
Steyn led South Africa's pace attack on Thursday, 14 February, as they bundled out Sri Lanka for 191, securing a lead of 44 on the second day of the Test. That included a special spell after lunch, where he bowled 10 overs on the trot, maintaining speeds in the mid-140kph range.
Bowling such long spells is not something the 35-year-old has done often in his long career, given South Africa's profusion of pace options. Steyn admitted, in rather colourful language, that he was tired at the end of the day. But feeling in the zone, he badgered his captain to keep him on.
"Today was a period where I felt there was a wicket there all the time. I just felt like it was there for me, so I just kept going," he told reporters after the day's play. "When they were eight down, I didn't want Vern (Vernon Philander) to come on and bowl a loosener and go for four, or Kesh (Keshav Maharaj) to bowl a loosener and go for six.
"I felt, 'I'm not going for any runs, I'm going to carry on bowling here until the captain says he's had enough.' He had had enough after I had my sixth [over], but I kept begging, and got what I wanted."
It's nice to finish a three-Test series against Pakistan and not have someone write: 'He's an injury away from retiring.' It's nice to contribute again. It feels like I've started over.
Dale Steyn
Steyn might have had his 27th five-wicket haul if Dean Elgar had held on to a catch in his 17th over of the day. But the bowler wasn't complaining. "Test cricket is hard. Nothing should come easy," he said. "Fifers shouldn't come easy, and no catch is easy, either.
"After not playing for two years [through injury], I feel like it's a blessing to just be playing again. I've almost had to start over. I'm not on 430-odd wickets, I'm on 20 since breaking Polly's (Shaun Pollock's) record. It's nice to finish a three-Test series against Pakistan and not have someone write: 'He's an injury away from retiring.' It's nice to contribute again. It feels like I've started over."
"When I'm bowling 10-over spells, it shows I'm enjoying what I do" – Dale Steyn
Having now gone past Kapil Dev on the all-time wicket-takers' list, Steyn is keen to keep going. He is enjoying what he's doing and doesn't want to let coach Ottis Gibson, who welcomed him "with open arms" after his many injury lay-offs, down.
"If you had asked me two years ago where the full stop would be, I would have been able to give you an answer. But when you take two years out of it, you realise that you don't know what you've got until it's gone," he said.
"When I'm bowling 10-over spells, it shows I'm enjoying what I do. I could take the easy option, take 4/30 and go and stand at fine leg and say someone else do it. But it's fun. It's fun taking wickets. It's fun hitting guys on the head. As long as nothing serious happens.
"The moment I can't bowl 140-145 kph, and on a good day touch 150kph, like in Australia on fast wickets, then you've got to ask yourself the question: How effective am I? I have some skill – I've got to be honest, I don't have all the skill in the world – [but] I can bowl the ball at the right place consistently for a long period for high speed, and with a little bit of skill, I can shape it away, and I can bring it back in.
"You've got to be smart about when to bowl a bouncer, when to bowl a yorker, and when to bowl a slower ball, and that's what experience is. After 15 years, I've got some of that."
https://www.icc-cricket.com/news/1055589
Haroon786
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Would like to see why Steyn is being claimed as the GOAT?
Cuts_and_cuts_hard
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He certainly has an argument.
Ab Fan
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He is leagues ahead of anyone from his own era. In an era of "Home Track Bullies", he has been head & shoulder ahead of every other fast bowler both home as well as away from home.
If you look at away average of Anderson and Boult, arguably the two other best fast bowlers of Steyn's era, this validates the credibility of anyone who atleast makes a claim to Steyn's GOAT status.
Personally, his lack of ODI exploits is why I will have Wasim ahead of him but Steyn still definitely is up among the top 5 fast bowlers to have played the game. Among bowlers since 90s onwards, I will have him at around the same level as Ambrose and just behind McGrath and Wasim and on par with undisputed all-time greats like Donald, Waqar, Pollock and Walsh.
Haroon786
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An argument - yes but think it's far too short-sighted to proclaim him as the GOAT when there are other bowlers with claims to the throne.
Haroon786
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That would be all well and good but fortunately Cricket didn't begin in the 90s and it's definitely not fair to exclude bowlers like Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lillee, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall and the remaining ATG WI quicks of that period (Garner and Roberts) - those guys all were superb, some more so than others and in different areas too. You'd have IK there for the GOAT peak and consistency against all opposition, Hadlee for his ability to be a one man army for his country, Lillee for the universal acclaim he received from his peers, Holding for quite possibly the most aesthetically pleasing action ever but still able to deliver the ball at devastating pace and Marshall, for being the GOAT because he was the greatest of the greatest, the king of kings.
Strictly speaking for Tests, Steyn is definitely top 10 and you could even argue for top 3 or top 5 but I think aside from his GOAT outswinger (his bouncer and reverse swing were top notch but not THE BEST like his out swinger) he didn't have weapons in his arsenal that would make you pick him as a certainty in an ATG world XI.
Is this supposed to be a joke?
Haroon786
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No, but I think I know what is.
Ab Fan
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Of course, every era have produced great legends in all facets of the game. I counted since 90s because I didn't saw others bowl. I will have to go with what the general consensus is about them. If you have him in top 10 of all-time, I don't have any issue on it. But that does mean he is not just an all-time great but an undisputed one and also among the greatest of all-time.
Robert
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Excellent post [MENTION=134473]Haroon786[/MENTION]. I still rate Marshall the highest but Steyn is very close. All those absolute top guys you mention are all within 1% of each other in my belief.
Haroon786
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I don't have an issue at all with Steyn being considered an undisputed ATG, whaI I have an issue with is calling him an undisputed GOAT because that entails he's definitely better than the bowlers of the past which is unfair IMO as every ATG bowler has a quality that is preferred by the other ATG bowlers.
Haroon786
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Thank you very much; Steyn is right up there but not quite the very best.
jnaveen1980
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Standard of bowling, batting improve all the time. No need to put down current players because we love be nostalgic. At no point in history we see this many result-oriented matches. Couple of years back 99% of the tests for a calendar year produced results. There is an overall improvement. Lot more pace bowlers are coming up. Back then we had only a handful of decent pace bowlers and spinners. Ofcourse pitch plays a major role in any era. Asif even with his 79 mph balls was able to trouble a lot of batsmen. Mcgrath often operated only at 82 mph.
Robert
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I don’t think we are in a golden age of bowling. I think we are seeing test match batting standards collapse everywhere due to T20.
shaz619
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POTW
Steyn is an all time great for sure and the greatest of his era, one factor we do overlook is the decline in batting; while he has exceptional statistics in an era of flat pitches dominated by the bat he has benefited from bowling at teams who are not so aware of their off stump, given the introduction of restrictions on bowlers in other formats, the nature of ODI/T20 cricket and the number of LOI's which are played; Batsman are more prone to fishing outside off and have an average temperament. That's not to say that Steyn wouldn't be hot in the 80s or 90s but that is one aspect which is a little overlooked in my opinion.
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